Wisconsin Republicans Ignore Court Order; Insist the Budget Repair Bill Goes into Effect Tomorrow

What the hell, Wisconsin?

Apparently Scott Walker took Sarah Palin’s book title a little too literally; he has gone rogue.

After splitting the bill and jamming it through both houses without Democrats present, Wisconsin Republicans are now taking the position that the law goes into effect on Saturday even though just last week, a judge issued a temporary restraining order (TRO) enjoining any implementation of the law while the court considers several lawsuits challenging it. Here’s what happened as far as I understand it:

The Republicans jammed the bill through on March 9. Walker signed the bill on March 11. Secretary of State La Follette designated today as the date of publication. After the court issued the TRO, La Follette told the Reference Bureau (a non-partisan legislative bureau which publishes bills) that he was rescinding the publication date. The Reference Bureau published the law today anyway calling the publication “merely procedural,” and stating that it was required to publish the law within 10 working days of the governor signing the bill, on the date designated by the Secretary of State. (If La Follette rescinded the publication date, then why did the Reference Bureau publish it anyway? Inquiring minds want to know.)

In any event, and despite the Reference Bureau calling the publication “procedural” and categorically stating that publication does not equal implementation, the question becomes is that true?1 Is publication implementation or is it just a procedural measure? It’s a question the courts will have to answer.

Of course Walker and Cronies (specifically Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald) are claiming that the law has been published and therefore goes into effect tomorrow, which makes exactly zero sense since the judge enjoined its implementation. Fitzgerald is claiming — stupidly — that because the TRO does not reference the Reference Bureau specifically, that the TRO does not apply to the Reference Bureau.

That, comrades, is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. Essentially, the assholes in Wisconsin are trying to do an end-run around the court’s order. It’s pure gamesmanship, not likely to pass muster, and more than likely to piss off the court.

In non-legal terms, it’s BULLSHIT. The bullshittery becomes apparent when one reads the court’s order:

[T]he necessity to preserve the status quo. I think relief is essential to preserve the status quo, which is what exists here and now. The bill has passed. But it has not been published. I think a legitimate question might be asked, how can something so apparently minor – the failure to provide timely notice prior to a meeting that led to the enactment of the 2011 Wisconsin 10 – how can a minor failure of notice really halt this bill in its tracks?

And my answer to that is – it’s not minor. It’s not a minor detail. And bear with me for a homely analogy. Those few of you who may have seen the Super Bowl know that there was a much-photographed guy with a cheesehead, and it said “owner” on it. And of course, we all know what that refers to, the fact that the Green Bay Packers are publicly owned. It’s a heartwarming moment to see that, but in fact, it states that we in Wisconsin own our government. We own it. And we own it in three ways. We own it by the vote. We own it by the duty to provide open and public access to records, so that the activities of government can be monitored. And we own it in that we are entitled by law to free and open access to governmental meetings, and especially governmental meetings that lead to the resolution of very highly conflicted and controversial matters.

That’s our right. And a violation of that right is tantamount to a violation of what is already provided in the Constitution, open doors, open access, and that nothing in this government happens in secret.

I am now issuing a restraining order preventing further implementation of this act. And I want to read to you from a case, State ex rel. Hodge vs. Town of Turtle Lake, on the meaning of the Open Meetings Law. The Wisconsin Supreme Court states: “The purpose of the Open Meetings Law is to protect the public’s right to be informed to the fullest extent of the affairs of government. The public’s interest in enforcement of the open meetings law weighs heavily in matters such as this, where governmental bodies discuss topics of public controversy and concern behind closed doors.”

The Court continued: “An open meetings law is not necessary to ensure openness in easy and noncontroversial matters where no one really cares whether the meeting is open or not. Like the First Amendment, which exists to protect unfavored speech, the Open Meetings Law exists to ensure open government in controversial matters. The Open Meetings Law functions to ensure that these difficult matters are decided without bias or regard for issues such as race, gender, or economic status, and with highest regard for the interests of the community. This requires, with very few exceptions, that governmental meetings be held in full view of the community.”

Those words were written by Justice William A. Bablitch, who passed away just a month ago. His words live on here, and they set the direction for how the Open Meetings Law is to be construed, applied, and enforced.

I do, therefore, restrain and enjoin the further implementation of 2011 Wisconsin Act 10. The next step in implementation of that law would be the publication of that law by the Secretary of State. He is restrained and enjoined from such publication until further order of this court.

The hearing on the Petitioner’s request for a preliminary injunction is set for March 29, 2011.

Can you see how absolutely stupid Fitzgerald’s position is? That because the court enjoined the Secretary of State from publishing the law, but didn’t specifically enjoin the Reference Bureau from publishing the law (which can only publish the law upon the Secretary of State saying it can publish the law), and even though the Reference Bureau apparently published the law despite the Secretary of State’s order not to publish the law, it’s already published! It’s out there! No takesy-backsies!

Render unto me a break already. It’s dumbassedness to the extreme.

Hopefully the court will either amend or clarify its order next week, and will tell Walker and his goons to settle the fuck down. In what world can one just ignore a court order and do whatever the fuck one wants?

Oh yeah, in Teabilly Town.

What a bunch of dishonest crooks.

1 Actually, the question becomes “what the fuck is wrong with these people and will they do us a favor and set themselves on fire?”

[cross-posted here at Angry Black lady Chronicles]

199 replies
  1. 1
    MikeTheZ says:

    I just saw this over at GOS, and my brain…well, I can’t even come up with a description of what happened, as its still offline. Shocking…

  2. 2

    Man, is Walker taking his cues from world despots or what? Can you imagine if a Democrat behaved like this? He and the Teanuts would be screaming their fool heads off.

  3. 3
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    I am fucking flabbergasted. Seriously. These assholes have simply given up on process. In any case, the implementation is still enjoined and the law is not in effect. Period.

  4. 4
    The Dangerman says:

    Best guess from the tea leaves? They know the law is getting struck down on any number of grounds and decided to publish it just to piss off Liberals. After the Court sanctions them, they’ll respond by dropping their pants to the Liberal Media and otherwise continue being obnoxious pricks.

  5. 5

    Fuckin’ law. how does it work?

  6. 6
    General Stuck says:

    I think these little palace coups going on with tea tard governors are a make hay while the sun shines type of end runs. Most of these states are in the midwest and NE with NH getting ready to pass an even more draconian anti union bill. These people know the citizens will rarely give them a chance as they have right now, so they are reaching for the wingnut brass ring while they can.

    The southern states are watching closely though to see how it all plays out, and they have been down such roads before, defiance of the northern aggressors and have suffered the repercussions for their rebellions.

    But if all this goes sideways for the wingnuts, and dems make a big comeback from the blowback, and Obama gets reelected, this sort of thing will move to southern states, and be much more serious and virulent, especially if it looks like the country is electorally moving permanently left, aided by increasing population growth with minority voting power.

    edit – and almost forget. GO Kentucky!!

  7. 7

    I don’t mean to sound snobby but what was Walker’s job before this? County executive? I mean … you know, governorin’ is hard work and maybe someone should have a bit of a clue about how it works before being put in charge.

  8. 8
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    While this should have no effect on any decision on the merits of the questions before the judge, I have found it to be good practice not to piss off a judge in front of whom I am going to appear in the near future. The WI Republicans appear to have adopted a different strategy.

  9. 9
    General Stuck says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Contempt of court sometimes gets you a stay at the county crossbar hotel.

  10. 10
    Garrigus Carraig says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Right? He’s going to eat their livers.

  11. 11

    @General Stuck:
    We could only hope. IIRC, they did the same thing with the “Closing the Capitol” judge’s ruling. Basically, a big middle finger to the judicial branch, if you ask me.

  12. 12
    MikeTheZ says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: One wonders if this particular judge is in position to hear any challenges of those recall petitions.

  13. 13

    @General Stuck:

    edit – and almost forget. GO Kentucky!!

    We’re watching the game too but I’m getting sleeepy and probably won’t be able to stay awake…

  14. 14
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Southern Beale: County executive in Wisconsin is a reasonably powerful elected position. Walker was County Exec for Milwaukee County. He should have enough experience to take nt next step up. Obviously, he was not ready to get called up to the Show.

  15. 15
    lllphd says:

    ya know, what’s interesting about this is the already mentioned (surely somewheres) fact that fitz could ‘easily’ and technically just run the bill through again, do the open access bit, and supposedly it would pass.

    heh heh, there lies the rub. not only would they run the risk of a total repeat, with all the dems disappearing again, all the state going up in arms in protests again, and all the bad publicity again, but they run the risk that not all the republican senators would vote for it.

    fitz inasmuch admitted to this the other day on (gosh, help me out here, was it greta or meghan? since i can’t bear to watch, i only got it second hand) some fox show. but, interestingly, that portion of the interview has been scrubbed.

    digby just posted her take on joke line’s latest piece, which she actually describes as “nuanced and thoughtful,” and then acknowledges that she has done so. it’s mainly about libya and the middle east. but what was most fascinating about the piece is that he twice mentions that the most important stuff going on right now is actually happening in the middle west. and when he gets back from the mid-east, he’s going to focus on the middle west.

    might we be witnessing a watershed moment, when the wapo fence straddlers sit up and notice those pickets up their butts? not suggesting we hold our collective breaths, but do keep your eyes open.

  16. 16
    Karen says:

    So…can they be sued or held in contempt for telling the judge and state (politely) to fuck themselves?

  17. 17
    artem1s says:

    @Southern Beale:

    three point time. no way State shoots 40% the whole game. watch out when they get warmed up.

  18. 18
    4tehlulz says:

    Andrew Jackson looks approvingly from the $20.

  19. 19
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MikeTheZ:I doubt that. Judge Sumi is in Dane County (Madison area). I would expect that the petitions will be challenged in the senators’ home districts. I have never appeared before Judge Sumi, but she has the reputation of being very no-nonsense. I think this was not a good move.

  20. 20
    General Stuck says:

    @Southern Beale:

    It just makes me tense as all get out watching the game, so I peek in and out to see how it’s going, and if close, near the end will watch all of that. Kentucky natives have a basketball chromosome tatooed on their psyche.

  21. 21
    lllphd says:

    @Southern Beale:

    you may be aware that walker was milwaukee’s county exec, and pulled just this sort of crap, essentially firing a bunch of public workers. well, he similarly said screw a bunch of ‘process’ and ended up getting sued, costing the county a boatload of settlement money. why this kind of crap did not get him trashed in november is beyond me.

    oh, oops; forgot about the koch machine. ‘splains ever’thang.

  22. 22
    Left Coast Tom says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Was there any real reason, at the time of the election, for voters to believe he could be ready to leave Milwaukee County (aside from a desire that he should do so)? In other words, did he simply fail upwards, or did he just benefit from Wisconsin Democrats deciding to have an “enthusiasm gap”?

  23. 23
    mr. whipple says:

    F Kentucky.

    That is all.

  24. 24
    lllphd says:

    @Garrigus Carraig:

    not sure, but i believe this judge is a woman? someone correct me if so.

    in any case, with onions, liver with lots of onions.

  25. 25
    TX Expat says:

    This is an act of naked aggression against the notion of the rule of law itself.

    What happens when the court rules it’s unconstitutional? Will these fuckers abide or are they going to keep on keeping on? If past acts are a predictor of future outcomes, I’m gonna go with keep on keeping on. So, what’s the end game for these guys?

    What happens if a recall is successful? Will the Repubs surrender their seats? If Walker could be recalled or impeached will he leave? Or is he going to go with the Cote d’Ivoire option?

    In a way, I’m pleased the mask is off the Republican party. They’ve dropped their pathetic attempts to conceal their contempt for anyone that’s not one of their corporate sponsors. Sure, they can still buy their neo-Pinkerton thugs, but Real Americans are starting to pay attention. For example, there was a protest yesterday in Baton Rouge, LA organized by AFSCME. A protest. In Baton Rouge. Louisiana. That’s awesome.

    But back to Walker, fuck that fucker and all his fuckface friends. The question for Wisconsin and the rest of the teabilly governed states is how do we show them the door as expeditiously as possible?

  26. 26
    lllphd says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    evidently the current make-up of the supremes is 4-3 republicans, and not a very ‘professional’ bunch of republicans, at that, given the way the incumbent prosser has behaved. the election a week from this coming tuesday will hopefully correct that problem by reversing that ratio.

  27. 27

    @General Stuck:

    Kentucky natives have a basketball chromosome tatooed on their psyche.

    Yep my husband is from W KY and is a UK alum as is virtually his entire family. The bleed blue ….

  28. 28
    gex says:

    @lllphd:

    ended up getting sued, costing the county a boatload of settlement money

    FNB (Feature, not bug). It is like the intelligent design thing. They have no problem getting themselves sued and costing the government money. All the faster to drown the damn thing. Plus, they get to be martyrs making their point. And their constituents are the aggrieved victims of liberal fascism. They have no problem facing even more budget problems and deciding it is because of blacks, immigrants, gays, and liberals.

  29. 29
    gex says:

    @TX Expat: Problem is, Walker has the National Guard…

  30. 30
    Karen says:

    @TX Expat:

    In a way, I’m pleased the mask is off the Republican party. They’ve dropped their pathetic attempts to conceal their contempt for anyone that’s not one of their corporate sponsors. Sure, they can still buy their neo-Pinkerton thugs, but Real Americans are starting to pay attention.

    Me too. Though if Michelle Bachman was to suddenly open her mouth and elongated jaw and swallow a guinea pig I wouldn’t be surprised.

  31. 31
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Left Coast Tom: My best guess is that Dems were just getting creamed. Tom Barrett, the Dem candidate for Gov, is popular as the mayor of Milwaukee. He was a popular Congressman before he came back to run for mayor. Last year, he physically intervened to try to stop an man beating up his wife and the guy turned on him with, I believe, a metal pipe. Barrett’s hand was broke and he lost a couple of teeth to the assault. Basically, he is a great guy and a good politician. I really don’t understand it.

  32. 32
    Chris Grrr™ says:

    @Karen: We’re all being trolled now. No other explanation fits as well.

    The Koch minion is such an enemy of government that he became chief executive of his state in order to ignore the existing laws. It’s almost better than the plot of a classic Mel Brooks movie.

  33. 33
    TX Expat says:

    @Karen:

    Though if Michelle Bachman was to suddenly open her mouth and elongated jaw and swallow a guinea pig I wouldn’t be surprised.

    I’m pretty she sure she calls that Tuesday.

  34. 34
    lllphd says:

    @TX Expat:

    i say the best way to get the teabaggers out the door is to simply let them be their adorable whacko selves, forcing the only slightly less whacko beltway republicans to slam the door in their faces.

    that’s for the ones who will – sadly – get re-elected in ’12. for the rest, we can certainly show them the door to the bus home by voting them out.

  35. 35
    lllphd says:

    @gex:

    about right. truly astonishing, the chutzpah. like W’s mywayorthehiway on steroids.

    or koch.

  36. 36
    freelancer says:

    I take exception to the cartoon.

    Only a fool would try to deprive working men and working women of their right to join the union of their choice. — Dwight D. Eisenhower

    Seeing as how, economically, I’m a smidgen to the left of Gen. President Eisenhower, I know that makes me a complete Marxist, Commie DFH, I feel like I need to make it clear that the Military-Industrial complex isn’t the only thing that would have made Ike’s jaw drop.

  37. 37
    AAA Bonds says:

    There are precious few levers left that organized non-rich Americans can use to get their way. I guess it’s been like that for most of history – not just our history.

    The good news I can give you is that I’m in a professional program in a union-unfriendly state, and the overwhelming majority of my classmates are pro-union, as evidenced by an anonymously-answered in-class poll that surprised the hell out of our instructor.

    Numbers tell the same tale: Generation Y is astoundingly pro-union compared to older Americans.

    The bad news is that my generation views unions like unicorns or, at best, ivory-billed woodpeckers: rare, perhaps mythical creatures. Most of us weren’t even conceived when Reagan put the whammy on the air traffic controllers.

    We’re aware of what unions did and could do; hell, we’re in awe of the idea of any group of workers demanding a contract that favors anyone but the owners, but I’m not sure if all of us understand the fight ahead if we want the benefits (in every sense) that previous generations took for granted.

    We don’t have much first-hand experience, and I fear that without aggressive outreach by actual unions while they have a lot of goodwill to work with, we’ll go the way of the Boomer men – the road from Kent State to the Tea Party.

  38. 38
    lllphd says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    koch machine.

    and thanks for the reminder about tom barrett; i’d forgotten about his heroism.

  39. 39
    The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik says:

    People are taking it for granted that this gets overturned full stop. I hope they’re right, but my fear is that it will hinge on that state Supreme spot flipping, which isn’t a given quite yet.

  40. 40
    Left Coast Tom says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Dems didn’t get creamed in CA, even in close districts (though there was one not-close-district in Fresno that shouldn’t have ended as close as it did…Costa’s a blue dog though…). Dems generally did OK in other Pacific Time Zone states. Dems got creamed in WI, MI, OH, NY, PA, and FL. I guess I’m poking at what the difference might be…one can’t really blame it on the overall zeitgeist, because we’re part of the zeitgeist and we weren’t affected. There has to be something else that happened, I’m poking at what that might be.

    Perhaps there’s some fundamental difference between Fresno (Costa-land) and the rest of CA that might answer the question – Fresno County did have the worst voter turnout in CA, and most accounts generally point to poor turnout amongst Dems. But Fresno is heavily Hispanic, and those same accounts credit Hispanics for the normal outcome that happened in CA. That seems a bit contradictory, as root cause analysis goes.

  41. 41
    gnomedad says:

    I’m wondering if they’re daring the Feds to intervene so they can have a “tyrrany!” freakout.

  42. 42
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Left Coast Tom: I guess I don’t know. I live in the People’s Republic of Madison; I have a Pauline Kael thing going on here-no one I know voted for him.

  43. 43

    Ha! American SUCKAZ!

    Justice-For-Sale Lobbyists Raising ‘Unlimited and Undisclosed’ Donations To Buy Supreme Court Seat
    __
    Last year, Wisconsin Supreme Court justice and Gov. Scott Walker ally David Prosser cast the key vote in favor of a “justice-for-sale” ethics rule written by two corporate lobbying groups. Thanks to Justice Prosser, his colleagues are not required to recuse themselves from cases involving one of their major campaign donors. Now, Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce (WMC), one of the lobbying groups that wrote the rule Prosser made into law, is rewarding him by raising “unlimited and undisclosed” funds to keep Prosser on the state supreme court:

    Read the rest at the link. Wake up and smell the plutocracy, folks.

    See, GOPers have tremendous respect for the judicial system … when it agrees with them 100% of the time. This is just so typical.

  44. 44
    Martin says:

    I’m gonna put my support for a no-fly zone and attacks on ground targets in Wisconsin on the record right here and now. It’s early, but I’m getting a certain vibe here…

  45. 45
    Postscript says:

    @Omnes Omnibus – you are dead right about Barrett. The only “consolation” I had from the elections was that I didn’t lose my mayor.

    WI is a lot like IL – if you remove the Milwaukee and Madison from the mix the state skews fairly red, but the metro areas in those two cities are what puts us in “swing state” status.

    It was an interesting election for us here, because Upstate Wisconsinites have a real dislike of Milwaukee politicians, which both Barrett and Walker are. I can say that everyone I know was extremely motivated to vote, if for no other reason than we are STILL living with the train-wreck that Walker turned Milwaukee County into. How a man can literally bankrupt the government he heads and be elected to even higher office still escapes me.

    My personal feeling is that the rural voters were much more enthused about fighting “teh soshulism” and turned out in greater force, although there have been consistent attempts by Wisconsin Republicans to enact laws fighting non-existent “voter fraud.” The last case of “vote fraud” we had here if I remember correctly was an idiot Marquette Student who bragged about voting twice to his friends, who narked him out to the Feds. From what I heard it was a real learning experience for that specific student on how NOT to attract Official Notice.

  46. 46
    Keith G says:

    @AAA Bonds:

    we’ll go the way of the Boomer men – the road from Kent State to the Tea Party.

    That’s a persistent misconception. Most Boomer men(and women) were not that liberal, especially between the coasts. Kent State as a model for student activism was at best an anomoly.
    As a youngster in the 70’s in Ohio (GO BUCKS!), I remember that there were counter protests on some campuses.

    Many of my cohort were quite amenable to Teabag philosophy even then.

    O-H…

  47. 47
    Softail says:

    That cartoon really isn’t fair to Ike. Read the Republican platform of the 50’s. I wish the Democrats would run on it. Ike clearly supported labor rights and was aware of their importance. Walker is taking us back more like 100 years.

  48. 48
    gex says:

    @gnomedad: Yikes. Because that’s just what the Ruby Ridgers need.

  49. 49
  50. 50
    Roger Moore says:

    @Southern Beale:

    Can you imagine if a Democrat behaved like this?

    No. SATSQ.

  51. 51
    burnspbesq says:

    Order to show cause re contempt, anyone?

  52. 52
    lllphd says:

    @The Political Nihilist Formerly Known As Kryptik:

    have you seen the new anti-prosser ad? brings up a whole different issue regarding his refusal to prosecute an abusing priest when he was AG. josh called it ‘brass-knuckle.’ i pointed out it’s at least factual.

  53. 53
    burnspbesq says:

    Is there still men’s college basketball going on?

  54. 54
    Karen says:

    Every day I am more and more grateful that I’m in a MD suburb of the DC metro. Before the last election I’d have said there was no chance NY would elect Mad Hatters of the Tea Party but it happened. So far MD has been lucky but up until recently Republicans of MD and VA were financial conservatives but socially moderate (not counting George Allen). They were pro-government and didn’t try to kill the unions in the US Government. Even Connie Morella was a moderate.

    Now Connie Morella would probably be stoned at the stake. I have no idea of Frank Wolf of VA’s positions because it’s as if he’s invisible. John Warner of VA would be too much of a RINO for them and to be honest, the real Ronald Reagan(not the recreation) was a scumbag but he’d be too liberal for these nuts too.

    But don’t count on backlash or anyone snapping to their senses. When Sarah Palin became the goddess of the Republican Party that taught me a huge lesson.

    Don’t EVER underestimate people’s stupidity.

  55. 55
    mr. whipple says:

    I-O.

  56. 56
    lllphd says:

    @Southern Beale:
    koch machine

  57. 57
    AAA Bonds says:

    @Keith G:

    Well, that’s helpful.

  58. 58
    burnspbesq says:

    @Softail:

    Not sure whether Walker’s role model is McKinley or Taft.

  59. 59
    AAA Bonds says:

    @burnspbesq:

    The UNC game’s over, so no, not any kind that matters.

  60. 60
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @burnspbesq: The prelim hearing in this case is Tuesday at 8:30 am. I expect the matter will come up.

  61. 61
    JGabriel says:

    Angry Black Lady @ Top:

    Can you see how absolutely stupid Fitzgerald’s position is? That because the court enjoined the Secretary of State from publishing the law, but didn’t specifically enjoin the Reference Bureau … it’s already published! It’s out there! No takesy-backsies!

    It doesn’t matter. Judge Sumi didn’t write “Oh, the law can’t go into effect until it’s published, and I’m stopping it from being published.” No, instead, Judge Sumi wrote:

    I do, therefore, restrain and enjoin the further implementation of 2011 Wisconsin Act 10.

    They can’t implement. Period.

    Enjoining publication was merely a follow-up to enjoining implementation. Published or not, they are still restrained and enjoined from implementing 2011 Wisconsin Act 10.

    Am I reading it wrong? It seems pretty straightforward to me.

    .

  62. 62
    gex says:

    @AAA Bonds: In a way, I like to think the liberal to conservative transition is inevitable. Especially looking at the younger demos politics.

  63. 63
    burnspbesq says:

    @AAA Bonds:

    Congratulations on reaching the Elite Eight.

    Signed,

    The ACC Champions

  64. 64
    lllphd says:

    @Karen:

    gosh, i hear ya, i mean look at what happened, and is happening.

    but, that includes all these very very active protests, and the polls are damning these actions to hell. i don’t think that speaks to stupidity, personally.

    my feeling is, folks are not so much stupid as trusting. what we’re seeing is buyer’s remorse. it’s possible to get what’s going on here without falling for the palin poop. who, by the by, is doing pretty damn awful in the polls.

    bottom line, i’m not sure it’s helpful to reduce the problems to stupidity. if you’re misled, are you necessarily stupid?

  65. 65
    Roger Moore says:

    @TX Expat:

    What happens when the court rules it’s unconstitutional?

    It will be denounced as Judicial Activism overturning The Will of the People(TM).

  66. 66
    gex says:

    @lllphd: It is a sad testament to how human beings (all of us actually) are not as rational as we like to think we are. We are so easily influenced.

  67. 67
    lllphd says:

    @JGabriel:
    yeah, no shit; what you said!

    that ‘implementation’ part seems pretty clear and unequivocal to me.

  68. 68
    Little Boots says:

    Ass. Holes. And incidentally, not that it matters, really, but ABL, you are on top of this shit in the way that the Atriots are not. They piss me off sometimes.

  69. 69
    gex says:

    @lllphd: I can’t even muster surprise over this. I realize it is an outrage, it’s just that the outrage reflex has been worn out by these jerks.

  70. 70
    gex says:

    @gex: I mean’t to say ISN’T inevitable.

    +?

  71. 71
    mr. whipple says:

    And incidentally, not that it matters, really, but ABL, you are on top of this shit in the way that the Atriots are not.

    This is obviously Obama’s fault. LOL.

  72. 72
  73. 73
    lllphd says:

    hey, omnes! you’re in madison, correct? and you have legal background?

    am i remembering correctly that there was/is some deadline hovering around now that has to do with the public employee contracts? is this crazy push some kind of end run around negotiating renewal with collective bargaining in play?

  74. 74
    Little Boots says:

    @mr. whipple:

    well, it’s somebody’s. But not ABL’s and that’s the important point, to the extent there is one.

  75. 75
    JGabriel says:

    AAA Bonds:

    I’m not sure if all of us understand the fight ahead if we want the benefits RIGHTS (in every sense) that previous generations took for granted.

    Corrected for accuracy. Republicans and corporations are not trying to take away mere benefits. They are trying to take away our rights: our right to assemble, our right to pursue happiness, our right to collectively bargain for wages & benefits and refuse to work if the employers are autocratic, greedy, stingy bastards who won’t come to amenable terms with his/her employees.

    These are rights, not benefits.

    .

  76. 76
    Little Boots says:

    @JGabriel:

    true but the point remains. nobody cares about our rights. never. it really is like benefits. you have to keep making it happen. we’re surrounded by assholes and they will never stop trying to take everything they can. we have to beat them back every time, over and over. rights? benefits? nobody cares.

  77. 77
    lllphd says:

    @gex:

    yeah, too true. and sadly, the truth that murdoch and his minions take to the bank, while they take us all to the cleaners.

  78. 78
    Robert M. says:

    @JGabriel: IANAL, but that was my reading, too. The judge said “You don’t get to implement the law until I’ve heard the case, so don’t even bother to publish it.”

    In which case “It’s published now, so we get to enforce it!” is even dumber than it looks at first glance.

  79. 79
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lllphd: Unions were working to renegotiate contracts before today. The key thing here is that the implementation of the law is enjoined. No judge is going allow anything from this law to take effect while the injunction is in effect. I doubt the injunction will be lifted while the case is pending, so everything should be put off for a while. I think this is just chest-beating, stupid counterproductive chest-beating.

  80. 80
    JGabriel says:

    @Little Boots:

    true but the point remains. nobody cares about our rights.

    I believe that people are more likely to get het up about losing their own rights, or other people losing their rights, than they are about the loss of benefits. So I think it’s important to point out the distinction whenever we perceive any potential confusion about it.

    .

  81. 81
    rikyrah says:

    this is who they are. at this point, all you can do is shrug

  82. 82
    Little Boots says:

    Hope you’re right Omnes. everything is such bullshit right now. Everybody has to get their ass to the polls April 5 and absolutely humiliate Prosser. that is the only thing these fuckwits will notice. a total blowout for that asshole.

  83. 83
    Ija says:

    Obviously there will be a Republican judge down the line who would find the law okay. And the media would focus on that, the same way they only focused on the judges who found ACA unconstitutional. And honestly, if this goes to the Supreme Court, is anybody really expecting that Roberts-Alito-Thomas-Kennedy-Scalia would side with the workers? I think the decisions for ACA and this case are already pretty much set in stone, no? In a way, it’s almost irrelevant what a local judge in Wisconsin decides.

  84. 84
    lllphd says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    thanks, this is helpful.

    so i guess this mans any contract negotiations will be in limbo because the republicans say employees can’t collectively bargain, and sit it out till the ‘courts’ decide, even tho they have no plans to adhere to a court decision they don’t like.

    nice. perfectly rovian nice.

  85. 85
    Little Boots says:

    @JGabriel:

    this is one of those times when rights are completely arbitrary. any right that is not defended, constantly, ceases to exist. we are a torture state. a no assembly state. barely a free speech state. I hope people get this. cause this is what we are about now. nobody gives a shit about rights. this country is all about power right now.

  86. 86
    lllphd says:

    TPM has its report up, replete with loads of amusing fitz quotes.

  87. 87
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @JGabriel: Of course you’re reading wrong. You’re not reading the wingnut version.

    I read that and thought, holy rollerskating fuck. Of course, the OH version of the same bill is even worse, so I’m a bit ill tempered about this matter. Since I’m an unwilling subject of King John I, of Ohio, aka Gov. Napoleon Heartland(TM) who is an even more dickish ruler than Walker.

  88. 88

    @Omnes Omnibus: that was my thought. i can’t imagine pulling that kind of crap in court. judges remember and they also talk.

  89. 89
    Sly says:

    Eisenhower was moderately pro-union, knew that you had to respect a court order even if you thought it did more harm than good, and had a particular loathing for demagogic shitbags from Wisconsin.

    Scott Walker does NOT like Ike.

  90. 90
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lllphd: I am hoping that recalls and such will have an effect before the court case is finished and that will be that.

  91. 91
  92. 92
    James E Powell says:

    The Buckeyes, shooting 30% from the floor, appear to have something stuck in their collective throats.

  93. 93
    JGabriel says:

    @Little Boots:

    this is one of those times when rights are completely arbitrary. any right that is not defended, constantly, ceases to exist.

    That merely makes it like all times where people and laws exist, Little Boots. If rights didn’t need constant defending, there would be no need for career attorneys and salaried judges.

    The current generation of Republicans and wingnut CEO’s is just more blatant than the one immediately following WWII. That is all.

    .

  94. 94
    Little Boots says:

    @Sly:

    Scott Walker is an asshole A complete and total asshole. and he is winning right now. we have got to slap him down hard and cold and if we don’t, that just says it all. if we let this asshole win, we may as well pack it up now and try for democracy in some other place. Mexico, maybe.

  95. 95
    AAA Bonds says:

    @JGabriel:

    No argument from me. Preach it.

  96. 96
    Little Boots says:

    @JGabriel:

    I’m not sure I really want to argue with that. You have a point. but there are times where people accept the rules, and times where rich assholes do not. This is the latter. Definitely.

  97. 97
    The Dangerman says:

    The Buckeyes, shooting 32% from the floor, appear to have something stuck in their collective throats.

    Tressel Karma

    Just wish it was a team I could respect beating them (read: not a Calipari fan)

  98. 98
    Little Boots says:

    Omnes, can the Republicans be held in Contempt of Court? Or are they immune?

  99. 99
    JGabriel says:

    @Robert M.:

    In which case “It’s published now, so we get to enforce it!” is even dumber than it looks at first glance.

    Exactly. It goes beyond dumb, into meaningless jibberish.

    .

  100. 100

    @JGabriel: no, you’re not reading it wrong. my first thought was “where’s the ‘inter alia'”?”

    i’ve had to seek clarification of orders that i thought were perfectly clear only to have opposing counsel make some balls-out ridiculous argument, and make it so vociferously that you start to one wonder if you’re the one that’s crazy.

  101. 101
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Little Boots: I don’t think Walker is winning right now. There is a strong case that this law was not enacted correctly and therefore has no legal effect. Each of these act by FitzWalker make them more unpopular. Hooper appears to be set for a recall. Others will follow. Buck up, little camper.

  102. 102

    @rikyrah: it’s so true. at a certain point the crazy wears you down. there are at least two things that i’ve been meaning to write about and every time i start, i just think: “meh.”

  103. 103
    JGabriel says:

    @Angry Black Lady: Thanks, ABL. I hope the judge slaps them seriously hard for this.

    .

  104. 104
    mr. whipple says:

    Tressel Karma

    What about Calipari?

    I’d say it’s just a damn good game.

  105. 105
    General Stuck says:

    Ky nailbiter with O state. Can’t watch it, just get updates from espn scoreboard. Go Cats!!

  106. 106
    Little Boots says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    They’re unpopular, but they are in charge, right now. I don’t think they’re winning long term but we better get that they are winning short term. we in danger, girl! and we have got to stop them. I think there are ways, but we cannot relax about this shit. they are running the state, and we have to stop dicking around as a nation and find a way to slap these bitches down, hard.

  107. 107
    asiangrrlMN says:

    Hol-eee crap! Kentucky by two! What a game. WHAT A GAME. Oh, and Walker is a pus-oozing, blood-leeching, spine-tingling gumdrop fusilli shiitake anus beret of the first order. That is all.

  108. 108
    The Dangerman says:

    @mr. whipple:

    What about Calipari?

    Tressel Karma fresher I guess

    It is a good game and … OSU best pull their heads out (30 sec left, TO OSU). Best guess is they jack a 3 and miss it, ball game.

    Edit: Fuck me, I switched channels to check on VCU and forgot to switch back. ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

    Edit Edit: Next year, two TV’s! I’m so used to CBS switching back and forth that I brain cramped (I’ll blame it on Friday and a damned long time since my last cuppa Joe).

  109. 109
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Little Boots: Anyone who tries to enforce the law or doing anything to move implementation forward is potentially subject to sanctions. At this point, the legislature doesn’t have much to do with it. Walker, on the other hand, do something to cause problems. Going much deeper than this would get beyond my area of competence, so I would not want to make any predictions without doing research on it.

  110. 110
    General Stuck says:

    Wooooputy do!! Calipiri frosh do it again. Bring it oN Nc. Though I am eternally ashamed for picking NC over KY in my bracket. gawd will git me somehow, but don’t care so long as they win.

  111. 111
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for the reassuring word. This bullsheetrockcaca is getting on my last nerve. MY LAST NERVE!

  112. 112
    lllphd says:

    @Little Boots:

    agree with the sentiment almost entirely. except that, when things become ‘all about power,’ they are equally ‘all about rights.’ that’s where the tension and struggle come from.

    i’m interested that you didn’t mention the ‘free press’ piece in there. particularly intrigues me right now, mainly because of the damage fox and o’keefe have done to the concept.

    got me to thinking about the concept. i’ve been interested in its interpretation, certainly since fox came on the scene, but before that with rush and his ilk, the shock jocks, who try to straddle that grey area between journalism and entertainment, for the obvious purpose of avoiding lawsuits from all their lies. enter o’keefe.

    and then the whole kerfuffle with the plame affair and robert novak’s attempt to straddle a slightly different fence, claiming source protection not for someone blowing the whistle on power but for someone IN power, namely rove.

    i’ve wondered where the purpose of the free press went. everyone talks about protecting reporters’ sources, and then ‘reporters’ rights to free speech, as if reporters reporting news. but no one talks about the fact that the right to a free press is FOR the people, not FOR the press. i’d love to see someone push this in a class action case against fox or o’keefe or rush because as a citizen, i feel my right to have my fellow citizens participate in a real debate on the issues has been violated by these traitors to the spirit of our democracy.

    there, i said it. my fantasy for the night. off to bed now.

  113. 113
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Little Boots: Dude, not girl.

  114. 114
    General Stuck says:

    @mr. whipple:

    I offer my condolences,

    bwa ha ha ha ha.

  115. 115
    Little Boots says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Oh, I know, it’s a phrase. Don’t take it seriously.

  116. 116
    mr. whipple says:

    @General Stuck:

    I’m not invested. Wife is though, so this will not be a great weekend, if you get my drift.

  117. 117
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @asiangrrlMN: Well, we can’t have that. Now, can we?

  118. 118
    jwb says:

    @asiangrrlMN: How do you expect to win the gooper primary with talk like that?

  119. 119
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @mr. whipple: No nookie for you? Dang. That’s cold.

    @jwb: Oh crap. You’re right. Ahem.

    I admire the ingenuity with which Scott Walker is dealing with such a difficult, thorny issue. It is in the best interest of the Wisconsin people to see the collective bargaining rights of the unions dissolved because union thugs have terrorized the country long enough, especially with the Kenyan Usurper at the Helm of the Ship that is America.

    ACORN is the suxxor!

    That better?

    @Omnes Omnibus: No. We cannot. I need that last nerve.

  120. 120
    gex says:

    @JGabriel: All the more important to frame them as rights. When they are “benefits” you get people saying “why should they have that when I don’t” instead of “why don’t I have that?”

  121. 121
    The Dangerman says:

    @General Stuck:

    Though I am eternally ashamed for picking NC over KY in my bracket.

    Roy Boy vs. Coach Cal; any chance of a well aimed meteorite?

  122. 122
    gex says:

    @jwb: Casey is on her side.

  123. 123
    lllphd says:

    @Ija:

    would the SCOTUS have any say in these state procedural matters? even state constitutional matters? unless violating US constitution? at what point would they even get involved?

  124. 124
    mr. whipple says:

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I best hang low and keep an eye out for thrown objects. She be nuts about this shit.

  125. 125
    Little Boots says:

    the conversation has moved on. the moving finger writes.

  126. 126
    General Stuck says:

    @mr. whipple:

    Flowers and Chocolate dude, and if you have a guitar, a midnight serenade outside the bedroom window wouldn’t hurt.

  127. 127
    Mark S. says:

    Why didn’t Florida St. call a timeout? Tie game, 10 seconds left, heave an airball. Oh well, OT.

  128. 128
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @Little Boots:

    And incidentally, not that it matters, really, but ABL, you are on top of this shit in the way that the Atriots are not.

    What is the overlap between Atriots, firebaggers, PUMAs, and members of the Professional Left? Or are there a few more categories I’m forgetting?

  129. 129
    The Dangerman says:

    @General Stuck:

    Flowers and Chocolate dude, and if you have a guitar, a midnight serenade outside the bedroom window wouldn’t hurt.

    Anything but an OSU spellout with Tuba (tubas be heavy).

  130. 130
    Little Boots says:

    @Bob Loblaw:

    Don’t yell at the Atriots. They are awesome. the rest? meh.

  131. 131
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @gex: That’s my boy! He’s gonna win me many votes. What a charmer. Him and my first endorsement. Can you get Casey to bark out this phrase?

    And, gooooooo, VCU!

  132. 132
    mr. whipple says:

    @General Stuck:

    I have neither guitar nor can carry a tune in a bag.

    Nope, best just to lay low. This will pass, as it always does. It’s much better when the teams suck, as there is no hope to be dashed. LOL.

  133. 133
    Little Boots says:

    Omnes, we need your wisdom. Dude.

  134. 134
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @Left Coast Tom: IMHO Dems got creamed because they lost the messaging wars in August to the fuckers with the Death Panels.

    I worked the polls the last few elections here in South PA. I’ve never seen so many Angry Old White People. Angry because they believed the lies they’d been fed. In my area there aren’t enough young non-white people to counteract it. The states you list are all Rust Belt, and I’d bet it was the same thing there, too.

  135. 135
    Little Boots says:

    @Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:

    You’d think not falling for crazy bullshit every five minutes would be a benefit of age. but nope, apparently not.

  136. 136
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Little Boots: No kidding. But, I have a hunch that these same people have been ill-informed, pig-headed idiots all their lives. Age is not a cure-all for stupidity and/or ignorance.

    Woot-the-hoot! VCU winz!

    @Mark S.: Get over it!

  137. 137
    Mark S. says:

    VCU! VCU! VCU!

    Seriously, why don’t you call a timeout to set up a play?

  138. 138
    Barb (formerly Gex) says:

    @asiangrrlMN: Casey is the embodiment of that word. He can’t bark it out, but he can act it out such that you will not need translators for immigrants or the deaf.

  139. 139
    jwb says:

    @Little Boots: They’ve spent their whole adult lives falling for this shit again and again, so it’s not really a surprise.

  140. 140
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Barb (formerly Gex): Excellent. He can accompany me everywhere and be my id.

  141. 141
    Little Boots says:

    @jwb: @jwb:

    that sucks. really. I’d ask why, but really, who the hell can answer?

  142. 142
    jwb says:

    @Little Boots: Short memories? too much fear? having grown up on duck and cover? who knows?

  143. 143
    Little Boots says:

    @jwb:

    Yeah, but we’ve all met people, sometimes on these here internets, that are in that generation and do not think like that. They give me hope, but they also make me pissed off more at those that have fallen for this crap for so long.

  144. 144
    burnspbesq says:

    @Ija:

    if this goes to the Supreme Court, is anybody really expecting that Roberts-Alito-Thomas-Kennedy-Scalia would side with the workers?

    How does it get to the Supreme Court? Where’s the Federal issue?

  145. 145
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @Little Boots: I’m in the duck and cover generation. Like you said, the whole thing about AOWP isn’t just a generational thing. Everyone wants to blame a particular generation for the partisan divide, but I see the divide in people regardless of age. Something else is going on.

    Perhaps it’s Nixon’s classification of people as Franklins (world handed to them on a platter) or Othogonians (fight for every scrap, resenting the hell out of it.) And what I saw at the polls was a lot of South PA Orthogonians, who never got any breaks and who are pissed off about it, who skew older because my whole damn region skews older.

  146. 146
  147. 147
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @Little Boots:
    Shortly, I suspect.

    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason +3

  148. 148
    burnspbesq says:

    @The Dangerman:

    Edit Edit: Next year, two TV’s!

    A teevee and an iPad. The March Madness on Demand app is really nice.

  149. 149
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Little Boots: I don’t see it as generational. My bro has a far-right friend who spouts the same shiitake, and she’s in her early forties. Again, some people think that way. The Republicans exploit that part of the population.

  150. 150
    burnspbesq says:

    @The Dangerman:

    Roy Boy vs. Coach Cal; any chance of a well aimed meteorite?

    It’s Newark. You’re more likely to get a crooked contractor pouring substandard concrete, causing the roof to collapse.

  151. 151
    Little Boots says:

    @Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:

    yes, this. do you go to the Nixonland discussions? I think he’s a big part of this whole damn problem?

  152. 152
    Little Boots says:

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I don’t either. and people can change. A few years ago, I was spouting this crap. then you wake up and actually start to think about things.

  153. 153
    jwb says:

    @Little Boots: Yes, of course, because not everyone responds to experience in the same way, and in fact the same people do not always respond in the same. There is a significant chunk who have politically drifted back and forth over the years, and that group is unfortunately the ones who respond most strongly to the political scare tactics, probably the ones most scarred by all those drills in ducking and covering.

  154. 154
    Little Boots says:

    and hell, this whole site is run by a guy who used to spout the bush doctrine, and isn’t that old, and changed his mind.

  155. 155
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Little Boots: Yeah. Cole, too. I do think, though, that there are some who are unreachable.

    @jwb: Agreed. It’s a subset who ‘cling to their guns and religion’ at any cost.

  156. 156
    burnspbesq says:

    @Mark S.:

    Seriously, why don’t you call a timeout to set up a play?

    If Hamilton had called time out, VCU would have had an opportunity to set up its defense. In that situation, chaos is the offense’s friend, unless the ball is in the hands of Derwin Kitchen.

    Derwin Kitchen is the dumbest player in the entire ACC. I’ve watched that inbounds play four times, and I still can’t figure out how he ended up on the wrong side of Burgess. And then he drove into an impossible situation.

  157. 157
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @Little Boots: Been going to the discussions. Got way behind in the book, hope to catch up this weekend. I find it extremely depressing, I have to say.

    Lived through that shit and fought it for 40-odd years to no avail and here we are again, same old same old. Except the bastards have now seized the media and the fight’s even harder than it was before.

    On to +4

  158. 158
    Little Boots says:

    @jwb:

    my parents, in a nutshell. it sucks, but it’s true. but some seem to go beyond that. wish more would.

    and some have pretty much no excuse, but they still act like people who are scared and bitter. did you see any of those sites about people whose response to the tragedy in Japan was, yeah, well Pearl Harbor? you know, I could understand some guy in his 70s or 80s saying that, although it would still be ugly. but people in their 20s and 30s? that’s what happens, and then you know it’s coming from some other place.

  159. 159
    Little Boots says:

    @Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:

    that depression really is generational. I don’t feel depressed, but I was just a little too young to really understand what was going on. I find it interesting and historical and a well written book. but a lot of people who actually lived through those years seems to have the same reaction: depressing. but maybe I’d find a book about this decade depressing.

  160. 160
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: I hear ya. It’s discouraging to see how history repeats itself. But, overall, the arc is getting jerked upwards. Unfortunately, we are in a period of extreme reaction, which means lots of ugliness in the next couple of decades. Sigh. Drink one for me, will ya?

    ETA: I didn’t live through the Civil Rights Era, but I still find what’s happening right now deeply depressing.

  161. 161
    Suffern ACE says:

    @jwb: Yea, but have we (I mean the older adults here) done a pretty good job of trying to scare the bejesus out of the kids for a generation or two. Scaring their parents that the country is on fire, or about to be attacked by terrorists, or other kids with guns at their schools? Or did that fly right over their heads?

  162. 162
    Little Boots says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I think we all do a pretty good job talking ourselves into that crap.

  163. 163
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Little Boots:

    70s or 80s saying that, although it would still be ugly. but people in their 20s and 30s? that’s what happens, and then you know it’s coming from some other place.

    In the 80s and early 90s, Japan was number 3 cultural villain, I think, after anything Russian or Iranian. Remember, a lot of those workers in their 50s-60s saw Japan as the place where the jobs go (and they were coming to buy up the country). There wasn’t much push-back by the elite then. And a lot of dissing of the workers who were rated poorly when compared with japanese workers (We just live for the weekend. Japan has the work ethic. It sounds very familiar to what Brooks and Friedman write about now.) Not to excuse this “we will feel no empathy for anyone who suffers,” situation.

    I started to take Japanese in college thinking that it would lead to a better chance of pleasing my future bosses. We were in permanent decline back then, too.

  164. 164
    Little Boots says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    that is true. i remember that. but the sheer hatred, you would think these people had been at pearl harbor. but no, just assholes, for the most part.

  165. 165
    Martin says:

    Hmm, here’s a troubling new twist. The coalition may arm the Libyan rebels. Sounds like more small arms stuff, but I’m not sure about this one. This is the kind of thing that really should be handled by the regional allies, not western countries.

    No decision yet, just consideration.

  166. 166
    jwb says:

    @Suffern ACE: I don’t remember ducking and covering and I only vaguely remember the bomb scares. But then huge numbers of high school friends ended up spending time as evangelical wingnuts, though a good portion have since walked it back.

    The school shootings, on the other hand, were after my time. I don’t really know how that affected the kids or how the past decade’s constant diet of terrortainment is affecting the current generation kids.

  167. 167
    jwb says:

    @Martin: I’d be shocked if we haven’t already been covertly arming them.

  168. 168
    Little Boots says:

    @jwb:

    yeah, me too, we are so fake innocent, and nobody believes us anyway.

  169. 169
    Suffern ACE says:

    @jwb: I don’t know how we couldn’t arm them. I’m not certain what the end of the situation will be, but a lot of scenarios involve the opposition getting a seat at the table, getting some kind of reprieve if MQ were to somehow stay in power. I’m not certain how they get that far at this point without being known to have a force.

  170. 170
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @jwb: Third of fourth this. Wouldn’t surprise me at all.

  171. 171
    Martin says:

    @jwb: Well, I know that Egypt has, but it’s been quiet. And I don’t have a problem with that.

    My guess is that this is a two-part consideration:

    1) just small arms stuff and ammo
    2) if the air-ground campaign gets wound down by NATO, heavier arms to take out armor etc.

    The former doesn’t bother me, but the latter does. I’d much rather we take out the heavy gear than arm someone else up to do it.

  172. 172
    jwb says:

    @Suffern ACE: Well, I’m pretty much convinced that whatever decision we make in Libya will prove to be the wrong one. And if we had decided to do nothing at all that would have proved the wrong one as well. But my observation here simply has to do with my belief that we wouldn’t have done what we have already done if we had not already been deeply involved.

  173. 173
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    Personally, I think it’s more helpful to rely on the opinion of the nonpartisan attorneys whose job it is to construe Wisconsin law, rather than the Associated Press:

    Accordingly, while certain statutory obligations regarding publication of Act 10 have been satisfied by the LRB, the statutory obligation that relates to the effective date of Act 10 has not yet been satisfied by the Secretary of State, and at this time the Secretary’s actions remain subject to the temporary restraining order issued in Dane County Circuit Court.

    Just what I think, anyway.

  174. 174
    Suffern ACE says:

    @jwb:

    But my observation here simply has to do with my belief that we wouldn’t have done what we have already done if we had not already been deeply involved.

    If only there were some organization of computer wizards out there who would be willing to publish the classified records that we have, the record of what we did and what we know…

  175. 175
    jwb says:

    @Martin: I’ve seen quite a number of photos showing men carrying rocket launchers and shoulder launched missiles. If they are going to be an effective force, they will have to be able to take out the occasional tank on their own. I’m not advocating anything, btw, as I think it’s a disaster no matter what we do.

  176. 176
    Redshift says:

    @Suffern ACE: Parents have been being scared for at least a generation by the idea that “things are so much less safe” than when we were growing up, when in fact by most measures the opposite is true. This leads to things like “play dates” because they won’t let their kids go out and play in their own neighborhood or walk over to a friend’s house. I worry about the worldview of kids who have grown up with the idea that there are threats everywhere.

  177. 177
    jwb says:

    @Suffern ACE: Except even then they wouldn’t have the records of this particular incident so we couldn’t say for sure. But, yes, certainly, I’m drawing inferences based on past actions.

  178. 178
    jwb says:

    @Redshift: I think the damned privacy fences and lack of sidewalks in the suburbs make a deeper psychological imprint. It turns the house into a kind of prison.

  179. 179
    Redshift says:

    @jwb: The other thing that I heard discussed quite a bit on BBC radio earlier this week is that air power can take out tanks and such that are out in the open, but if they’re in urban areas, they can’t without flying so low and slow that they’re vulnerable even to fairly light weapons.

  180. 180
    Yutsano says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Derwin Kitchen is the dumbest player in the entire ACC.

    C’mon, he’s just a kid who prolly just made a stupid mistake he’ll feel for the rest of his life.

  181. 181
    Redshift says:

    @jwb: Depends, I guess. The (older) suburb I grew up in didn’t have sidewalks, but we just walked or rode our bikes in the street, because cars weren’t that frequent. Or we cut through people’s back yards, or walked through the patches of woods, or…

    As for the impenetrable fences, though, I agree completely.

  182. 182
    Martin says:

    @jwb: True, but Libya doesn’t have a few tanks. They have over 1000. Arming them to deal with that kind of armor doesn’t seem wise.

    @Redshift: Yeah, it’s harder, but there are a number of options. The US and UK have V/STOL aircraft which can come in high and fast and loiter only briefly. The US also has A-10 which are pretty much flying tanks themselves and are specifically built to take out armor. I don’t think we’ve deployed the latter and may not have any in the region, but there are US and UK Harriers going into Libya now.

  183. 183
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @JGabriel:

    Exactly.

    As to the process of “publication,” I think the Wisc. Sec. of State spells it out pretty well:

    After the Legislature passes a bill and the Governor signs it, the bill is delivered to the Office of the Secretary of State to be scheduled for publication. After publication, the “bill” becomes a new law. A new law is effective the day after the publication date, or on a particular date specified in the text of the bill.
    __
    The Secretary of State prints a notice in the official state newspaper (currently the Wisconsin State Journal), that alerts the public a new law has been created. The newspaper notice also contains a summary of the law, the date of publication, and directions on obtaining the full text of the new law. The complete text of a new law may be obtained from the Legislative Reference Bureau, located at 1 East Main Street, Suite 200, Madison, or through the legislative website at ww w.legis.stat e.wi.u s.

    That sounds similar to the chaptering process by the Sec. of State for California enactments. Minus the newspaper publication, of course.

    As the LRB rep said in the AP article, the bureau merely posted it at their own website (as required by law) but did not forward it to the Sec. of State. So it’s probably entirely fair to describe it as procedural in nature.

    Looks like the nonpartisan Wisc. Legislative Council agrees with the distinction. I posted an excerpt and link to his opinion @ 173.

  184. 184
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    Ooh, somebody plz take my prior out of moderation…too many links, I guess.

  185. 185
    Yutsano says:

    @Zuzu’s Petals: Heh, better than the medical thread where Kay had to pull them out constantly because of spechalist.

  186. 186
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @Yutsano:

    Sooo many ways to get in trouble around here!

  187. 187
    Yutsano says:

    @Zuzu’s Petals: Getting in good with most of the front page staff has its perquisites.

  188. 188
    piratedan says:

    @Postscript: perhaps we need to enact legislation that will help us identify “voting for frauds” instead of the virtually non-existent “voter fraud” phenomenon. It appears to me that the former is a much more prevalent condition in American politics than the latter.

  189. 189
    Draylon Hogg says:

    @182

    You won’t be seeing British Harriers much longer. That nice Mr. Cameron has scrapped them. They will be decommisioned this year as part of the cuts to our defence budget.

  190. 190
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @Yutsano:

    Heh indeedy!

  191. 191
    Yutsano says:

    @Draylon Hogg:

    They will be decommisioned this year as part of the cuts to our defence budget.

    Ur conservatives r doing it wrong. NEVER cut the defence budget. Cut every other basic service, but NEVER the defence budget.

  192. 192

    indeed it does! :)

    ETA: well replying from inside the dashboard doesn’t appear to work.

    this was in reference to yutsano’s comment about perqs.

    ::whistles and walks away::

  193. 193
    satby says:

    @gex:

    In a way, I like to think the liberal to conservative transition is inevitable. Especially looking at the younger demos politics.

    No, it’s not. I and all my age 50-60 cohort friends have remained very liberal our entire lives.
    And lots of people I know who thought they were “conservative” and voted Repug never will again after watching the antics of the last few years. It’s not an age or Boomer thing, and becoming more conservative with age is not a given.
    Edited to add:@gex #70. oh, OK. Never mind…

  194. 194
    MazeDancer says:

    Maybe the WI Repubs – including Walker – want to get locked up. Be Fox News Sponsored Jailbird Martyrs for the cause.

  195. 195
    Triassic Sands says:

    Laws? We don’t need no steenking laws. — WI GOP

    Wisconsin, where the rule of law has been replaced by the rule of thugs.

  196. 196
    mazareth says:

    @satby re gex.

    I started out somewhat conservative in my teens and have moved steadily leftward since. Still regret that my first vote for Prez in ’84 was for RR.

    I live in Central Wisconsin. I left our local School Board after we lost the vote on an operational funding referendum. We ended up having to cut a lot of teachers and programs. I didn’t run for School Board to preside over the dismantling of the District.

    I would have had to run for re-election in April 2010. At the time I was a year out from surgery for thyroid cancer. Running for reelection + full time day job + getting healthy was just too much.

    I really feel for my former colleagues who have to deal with the cuts Walker is imposing on Wisconsin schools.

    As a final aside my State Senator is Julie Lassa (one of the Wis. 14). My Assembly rep is Louie Molepske, another strong progressive.

    I have a number of friends participating in the demonstrations in Madison. I haven’t managed to get down there yet.

  197. 197
    sparky says:

    @Little Boots: agreed. you could also add a perpetually warmongering state, too.

    to me this seems like a standard effort to change the facts on the ground. the advantage to the Rs is that they now have another arrow in the quiver (argument) to favor implementation. will it work? dunno. not sure how far the judiciary will push the legislature/gov.

  198. 198
    Wolfdaughter says:

    @satby:

    And gex:

    This 65-year-old boomer was raised as a conservative Republican in a very conservative household. I first departed from the orthodoxy when I was 14 and the sit-ins were just really making into national consciousness. I remember thinking that OF COURSE integration was the way to go. I don’t remember thinking that it would solve all problems in “racial” relations (actually, we all belong to the same species, homo sapiens sapiens, although a lot of times we don’t seem to be very wise). But it just seemed the fair and right thing to do.

    I remained firmly in the RW Repub camp, though, easy to do in Prescott, AZ, until I met a couple of liberal guys when I was 18. These guys were very articulate and pointed out some home facts to me about poor people trying to support families on minimum wage (at that point $1.25/hr). It shook my conservative Repub faith deeply. But I’m sometimes pretty slow, so it took another 18 years for me to realize that I belong in the flaming liberal camp. What really did it for me was when the Repubs nominated Reagan AND THEN HE WON!!! (Although Nixon was no help for me to maintain my conservative Repub creds.)

    In my case, it was obvious that Reagan simply lacked the intellect to be a decent Pres. I used to say that he had a cream puff for brains. I didn’t realize at the time that he was in the early stages of Alzheimer’s, but when that came out, I wasn’t a bit surprised, either. I don’t need to go into his many misstatements of facts to this audience.

    And just look at the Repub pols today! The few who have any brains are venal and sociopathic. Most of them are too stupid to be dogcatchers. OK, intelligence and education aren’t the only criteria needed in order to be a decent Pres, but they at least ought to be among the basic minimum necessities.

    So I remain firmly in the flaming liberal camp. I have too much heart to be a conservative. I used to split my ticket, but since 2000 that has become intellectually impossible for me. I doubt that I will ever vote again for a Repub in my life, unless they kick out all their proto-fascists.

  199. 199
    mclaren says:

    Actually it sounds like Scott Walker and company are breaking the law.

    Good news.

    When your political opponents have to resort to breaking the law to defeat you, that’s a sign you’ve already won.

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