Cynthia Gordy at The Root on “the criminal prosecution of a virus“:
In Texas, a man is serving 35 years in prison for spitting at a police officer. In the state of Washington, a 19-year-old college student sits behind bars on first-degree assault charges for having unprotected sex with his girlfriend. A Georgia woman was sentenced to eight years in prison after consensual sex without a condom, while a Michigan man faced 10 years in prison on a felony charge for allegedly biting his neighbor during a scuffle. The penalties are steep because, according to the laws in these states, the defendants all brandished a deadly weapon: their HIV-positive status.
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Such prosecutions are frequent. Thirty-four states have some type of HIV-criminalization law. Depending on the state, it may be illegal to expose someone else to HIV, transmit the virus or conceal your own HIV-positive status from potential sexual partners. This criminalization extends even to cases in which condoms were used or when the virus was not transmitted, as well as to acts, such as spitting or biting, that pose minuscule to no risk…
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Ostensibly, one goal of HIV criminalization is to prevent new infections, but opponents say that they have the opposite effect. For starters, since criminal liability applies only to people who know their HIV status, it discourages people from getting tested.
For the record: Having sex with someone before disclosing one’s HIV status is a very, very bad thing. But giving ill-informed, anti-sexual authoritarians another excuse to enforce “Those People” laws against the obvious targets — insufficiently-white people, gay people, sex workers, anybody suspected of having a more adventurous sex life than those same authoritarians will admit to having — that’s not a win for the American “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” philosophy. Especially when the pro-criminalization advocates say stuff like this:
So far, efforts against HIV criminalization haven’t made a dent as new legislation is rolled out across the country. A pending proposal in Nebraska would make striking a police officer with any bodily fluid a misdemeanor. The act would be upgraded to a felony, with a penalty of up to five years in jail, if carried out by someone infected with HIV/AIDS or hepatitis B or C.
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“If you know you’re HIV positive and you’re throwing your bodily fluids at someone, then you’re committing assault,” Jeff Franklin, the sheriff of Clay County, Neb., said to The Root. Franklin likens an HIV-positive person expelling bodily fluids to someone aggressively wielding a firearm. “This law specifically targets people who intend to intimidate or do harm, and makes sure that they are held responsible. I think there should be a criminal prosecution for that.”
MikeJ
I think if you can prove intent assault isn’t really a horrible thing to call it.
It doesn’t matter that spit is actually a lousy way to pass it along, if you were trying to infect somebody you really should be punished.
Wile E. Quixote
Why do cops deserve special treatment? If this is a real risk then why not establish the same penalty for everyone who does this? What makes cops so special? Are their immune systems more fragile than those of regular citizens?
Oh, and speaking of cops behaving badly check this out:
HPD Officer Accused In Tear-Gas Attack At Barbecue Cookoff
With cops like this who needs criminals?
Corner Stone
@Wile E. Quixote:
And like I posted in the Open Thread earlier:
soonergrunt
@MikeJ: there’s also the issue of the mental anquish and fear of being hit with that stuff, although I suppose that civil tort is an answer to that.
I don’t have a lot of use for criminalizing certain behaviors for some people and not for others, but we also ban felons from owning firearms in most jurisdictions.
The saying “your right to swing your arms ends at my nose” comes to mind, and I’m not entirely bothered that people who have blood-borne pathogens and know they do should be subject to higher sanction when they increase somebody else’s risk of infection.
Roger Moore
@Wile E. Quixote:
FTFY. There’s nothing that says you can’t be both a police officer and a criminal. In fact, there’s plenty of evidence showing it’s all too common to be both.
gnomedad
@MikeJ:
Well, yeah, but I think the efficacy of the “try” matters. I don’t think you can be tried for attempted murder for punching me. 35 years for “trying” to infect someone by spitting at them is a bit much.
MikeJ
@gnomedad: If I point a gun that I believe to be loaded at you and it later turns out it wasn’t loaded, it’s still attempted murder. If my intent was to kill you, my skill is irrelevant.
gnomedad
@MikeJ:
What if I believe I am Lord Voldemort and uncork an “avada kedavra” curse at you?
eemom
What is the evidence that that is either the purpose or the effect of the law?
It is certainly not obvious from the examples given:
Pretty weak shit here.
kc
Franklin likens an HIV-positive person expelling bodily fluids to someone aggressively wielding a firearm.
Exactly right! And if you’re a really good spitter it’s like wielding a firearm with a high capacity clip!
kdaug
When the hell do we start drug testing cops for steroid abuse?
MikeJ
@gnomedad: I’m guessing a reduced capacity plea.
tkogrumpy
With all the shit coming down the pike right now,I can’t get very exercised about this particular perceived wrong.
Barb (formerly Gex)
Now, what if said cop is beating me such that I drool or bleed on him involuntarily? Are there less severe charges for that scenario?
Keith G
@MikeJ:
How is this relevent? Analogy fail.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Keith G: It’s more like trying someone for attempted murder if they point a remote control at you while wishing to murder you.
Welcome to thought crimes everyone! Spit can’t give you HIV. But that doesn’t matter. What matters is that the thought was there.
Steve
Can I just point out how dumb this argument is? Of all the possible reasons why people fail to get tested for HIV, I cannot believe there is one person in America who declines to get tested because “if I take the test and find out I’m positive, I won’t be able to spit at people without getting criminally punished.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Barb (formerly Gex): Intent can matter in criminal cases, so thoughts are relevant. This, however, appears to be a very silly law and the only thing that decreases its silliness it the fact that it is ripe for misuse.
Wile E. Quixote
@kc:
This is why everyone needs to be infected with HIV. See, if everyone had it you could spit on someone and infect them with it before they spit on you and infect them with it.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: @Barb (formerly Gex):
So if I take out after a cop swinging a feather boa screaming, “I am going to hurt you!”……
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Keith G:
Sentence structure counts.
scav
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: I’m still not sure who’s screaming but it’s either a hell of a new uniform or a fashion accessory many would run from.
Keith G
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude:
So on a Saturday night, you are going to bust my balls for misplacing a participial phrase?
I spit on you.
jwb
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: Well, that feather boa was a really loud fashion choice.
jeffreyw
The police officer eats spits and leaves.
soonergrunt
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude:
That cop had better have color coordinated the boa with the sam brown belt, or at least the grips on his sidearm.
Villago Delenda Est
@Wile E. Quixote:
I nominate you to be national director of the NHIVA.
soonergrunt
@Keith G: What else would you have us do on a Saturday night? Another Manning thread?
We’re losing an hour tonight, so we have to keep it light.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Keith G: I have a spare comma you could use.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: I could perhaps offer a semicolon; but who knows?
Keith G
@soonergrunt: I am such a dweeb that my clocks are already reset. I get up at 4, so I need the psychological head start.
sb
My cousin was infected by a guy who did not disclose his HIV positive status. I don’t know what punishment he should suffer but I’d like to think we can all agree it should involve the removal of limbs.
Douglas
I thought they were all in favour of aggressively wielding firearms… provided the wielder isn’t black or something.
Omnes Omnibus
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: I, of course, need, as always, to keep, for my own use, all my commas.
soonergrunt
@Keith G: I prefer to wake up in the morning, and realize that something isn’t right and stand in my kitchen in my shorts with a cup of coffee in hand, pondering it.
tkogrumpy
@Wile E. Quixote: Such exquisite clarity of thought, I’m jealous.
soonergrunt
@sb: Apparently not, or we wouldn’t be having this thread.
I personally think that if the guy knowingly infected your cousin, he should be charged with attempted murder.
Bill Murray
@Steve: and the sex part? that is likely far more germane to the point of not getting tested.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Omnes Omnibus: Then why do you strew them about so freely?
Chris
“He assaulted me by dripping his blood on my fist when I smashed his nose!”
Yutsano
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: Commas are like manure, they should be spread freely to encourage growth!
Oh wait, that wasn’t your question…never mind.
Martin
Breaking: Our Galtian overlords are douchebags:
Omnes Omnibus
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: I meant I need them all for my own use. I can’t give them to others
Edited for clarity.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Martin: He also said we all know that the human toll is a tragedy before continuing the this-is-great-news discussion. That shows Galtian compassion of the highest order. Let’s be fair.
Also (clipped from one of the comments on the video)
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Omnes Omnibus: Very Galtian of you. You deserve those commas because you earned them through your initiative and creativity, and they belong to you and should not be taken from you by a pinkomarxistsocia1ist government. Ayn Rand weeps for joy. Or should that be “Ayn Rand weeps, for joy.”
Nellcote
Clearly, cops should be wearing wetsuits to protect them from the dreaded AIDSSpit.
Omnes Omnibus
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: I am glad someone understood. I was willing to write a 70 page speech on the topic.
parsimon
I haven’t read the thread, but this is a step on the way to mandatory HIV testing, isn’t it?
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Omnes Omnibus: I think the lethality (or lack thereof) of the weapon chosen would mitigate the criminality of the thought.
ETA: Or so I would hope. I hope we don’t throw people in jail for murder after assaulting people with feather boas.
parsimon
@Bill Murray: Agreed. Very many people prefer to avoid the possibility that they might be HIV+, either because they feel that it couldn’t possibly happen to them, or because they really don’t want to know: it’s a frightening discovery, and it means a curtailing of sexual activity.
Omnes Omnibus
@Barb (formerly Gex): I never said it wouldn’t. I simply pointed out that thought or intent can be part of a crime.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Omnes Omnibus: Thank you. I know that. I’m talking about this specific topic. But thank you for pointing out that intent is a factor in sentencing. I am duly educated.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Barb (formerly Gex): Some feather boas are felonies (of fashion) without any further assault than visual.
Omnes Omnibus
@Barb (formerly Gex): Actually since you are going to snotty about it, I wasn’t pointing out that intent is a factor in sentencing. I was pointing out that intent can be an element of the crime itself, something that must be proven before a guilty verdict can be rendered. You were talking about criminalizing thought and I indicated that, to a certain extent, the law has always done it. In the case of this law, it is not the intent or thought aspect that is problematic; it is the action part. We agree on that.
stuckinred
What the fuck-over?
Donald G
And how many documented cases of saliva borne transmission of HIV have there been? That falls within the risk assessment realm of theoretically possible, but highly improbable.
That’s up there with certain activist anti-gay quacks in the ’80’s and ’90’s spreading the fear that mosquito bites were a legitimate vector we should worry about in HIV transmission. How many documented cases of HIV transmission by mosquito bites have there been?
Yutsano
@Donald G:
Proven? None. Every suspected case ended up with another more likely cause.
Again, none. Similar reasoning, plus HIV doesn’t survive inside a mosquito.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Mens rea anyone? WTF indeed, but I often forget that many people only play lawyers on teh interwebz, which can make people who play court in real life a little nuts.
Also — I tried not to use too many commas, so that there would be enough left for you my friend.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I have enough commas to get through the weekend, and I will get some more from Costco on Monday. I am a little cranky today; various responsibilities and delays kept me from getting up to the Capitol here in Madison until 4pm, meaning that I missed most of the excitement. Fucking adult responsibilities, how do they work?
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Use them while you have them. His Galtian overlordship will take them from you because he deserves them. I can hear your little commas breathlessly exclaiming “Take me,
Howard RoarkOmnes Omnibus!”a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Lots of cranky going around. Gov. Napoleon Heartland (TM) — who can’t be recalled, just announced the relocation of Bob Evans headquarters from Cowlumbus to New Albany, with 3.4M in state tax cuts + a 3M state R&D loan. Because (wait for it) urban centers are losing population!! Dispatch blog report
Holy rollerskating fuck. You’re way better off in Fitzwalkerstan.
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: LOL. Fortunately cocktail hour is over or I’d need a keyboard more than commas.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Does that mean they are closing the Bob Evans on South High Street in Columbus? It was the best. Right next to the headquarters so everything was always just like it looks on TV. I have always thought New Albany was a creepy Stepford town.
ETA: Was it the Hunt brothers who tried to corner the silver market an number of years ago? I might try to corner the comma market. I am sure that profit will result.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): The thing that’s most amazing to me about Walker and Kaisich and their Capitol Gangs is the blatant tyrannical style in which they are dismantling their states. No subtle behind the scenes maneuvering for these guys, no covering their asses, just “We’ve decided to screw all you middle class serfs. Get used to it.”
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Thanks. I appreciate being appreciated.
stuckinred
Help I’m a rock.
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: I’m an island.
stuckinred
No man is an island
he’s a peninsula
“A Small Package of Value Will Come to You Shortly,”
fraught
@Donald G: Yes, the voice of reason. Many here don’t realize that this was a hot topic 25 years ago. It was meant to scare people into isolating all gay in camps men since they were refusing to get tested because they were afraid of being put into a database in a time when major public figures were calling for tattooing hiv+ men on their buttocks. It was a stupid issue then and it is now.
stuckinred
And if you prefer to hear it
no man
fraught
corret: isolating all gay men in camps
soonergrunt
@Nellcote: As long as they only wear one at a time, cool.
stuckinred
And if you like album covers. . .
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus:
The underpants gnomes will be in contact shortly for orientation and explanation of how their ideas can work for YOU!!
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@stuckinred: But do you have enough punctuation? That seems to be the question.
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: The thing is, had Bob Evans moved its HQ to Texas, the impact wouldn’t have been much 1) big corporate tax cuts are the stock in trade of Gov Napoleon Heartland(TM) and 2) in terms of jobs, most of its employees are at the restaurants, not HQ. Hence it’s in fact kind of obvious who the governor’s favored folks are. Much like when he came to Cincinnati and only met with executives, skipping meeting with any public officials. Fuckwad.
stuckinred
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I’m in a different orbit.
stuckinred
don’t forget to change your clocks
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I ain’t givin’ him none of my commas.
@Yutsano: Excellent.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@stuckinred:
Even so, you should make sure you are sufficiently stocked. I think.
stuckinred
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): If this game doesn’t go into OT it won’t matter.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
That’s what I used to tell my dates.
stuckinred
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: You dated Grace huh?
Steeplejack
@stuckinred:
Just got done changing mine, and am now contemplating ordering a new strap for a Timex watch that I haven’t worn in a while.
stuckinred
@Steeplejack: See now THIS is interesting stuff! Meanwhile, The Ville blew it.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@stuckinred: I wish.
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: Done. Thanks for the reminder.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus: My computer and cell phone do this automatically, which saves my bacon every year. I don’t wear a watch, so my only timepiece is my cellie.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: Three watches for me, one for my wife, microwave, bedroom, and office. I do the Saab’s clock next next time I drive it, probably Monday. Computers and cells update themselves.
Kryptik
OT: Don’t look now folks, but looks like the nuclear situation in Japan is devolving. Reports of at least 2 partial meltdowns at the affected nuclear plants, with one of the reactors likely to meltdown fueled by plutonium and uranium. Which, I’m being told, means the possibility of another Chernobyl is very possible.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus:
How Scandihoovian. Course my brother lurves his Volvo, I do too honestly. His was made right before Ford turned them to shit.
Steeplejack
@stuckinred:
I did end up watching MacGruber, I’m ashamed to say. It was just barely funny enough to keep me going, in a “There’s absolutely nothing else going on” kind of way.
Now I feel I can face the DVR backlog, so I am going to catch up on the last two episodes of White Collar.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude:
I want to know if the missing word is “while” or “that’s”.
The suspense is killing me.
ETA: Or “who’s”.
Damn, now I’m really curious!
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: Tons of both in Madison.
Steeplejack
I think the last front-pager on duty should always post an open thread before shutting down for the night. Writing my meaningless ephemera in an AIDS spitting thread makes me feel kind of unserious. Unserious and dirty.
soonergrunt
@Steeplejack: It’s the spitting. Just watch where you step, and you’ll be fine.
eemom
Read the thread. Are you people on ‘shrooms? How come I didn’t get any?
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Hey, it’s a direct quote. Ask the author. I believe that, except for the missing comma (Holmes is on the case), it is grammatically correct. But that depends on who eats, shoots, and leaves. (Yeah, I know, @jeffreyw riffed on it upthread.)
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: I think it best not to look too closely at the events of the recent past.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Before commenting, I caught the banter after the quote was dropped and the error noted. I was just being the natural smartass I like to be on occasion.
Playing the idiot. It comes natural to me. :)
Yutsano
@Steeplejack: Well with any luck ABL will be around to relieve our lack of open threadness. Or Anne Laurie, since she’s the High Empress of the Night Shift. I had a speculation about where ABL might be, but I decided it was untoward.
@Omnes Omnibus: We have the beautiful Seattle Civic, AKA the BMW. I swear this place is crawling with them. And Subarus. Which I want one. I may be too far gone.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Steeplejack: I agree that the funniness is inappropriate to the subject, but how much serious discussion can there be about something so appallingly obviously wrong? Everybody posts a comment expressing his/her outrage, and there’s nothing to debate.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Some of the commenters on BJ don’t play the idiot.
Omnes Omnibus
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude:Hey! Watch it.
Yutsano
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: Most of the laws were passed in the days when HIV was an automatic death sentence. Thanks to medical advancements that’s no longer the case, although the treatments are crushingly expensive even if you are insured. Good luck changing them though, the Jeebus freaks will shit kittens if you even try, cause they do lurves them some righteous punishment!
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
This just in:
No comment. (Well, other than to wonder if his photo is going to be a piece of toast or something.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: Red shoes… you know the angels want to wear them.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
@Omnes Omnibus: Judy Garland as the Pope?
kdaug
(This is strictly for PurpleGirl, no one else may look):
Ever wonder what’s in Spock’s scanner?
And yeah, it’s a repeat, but you guys are just blub-dibbilie-blah tonight.
If we ain’t doin’ righteous anger on a Saturday, I’m going to Spock.
scav
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude: We’re clearly headed right back into the feather-boa toting policeman (in this case Swiss Guard) territory here.
Steeplejack
Minor note: Unless it was fixed as part of the last site upgrade, which I doubt, the Balloon Juice server does not automatically update its time on Daylight Saving Time changeovers. I don’t think it causes any problems in the spring, as it does in the fall, but time stamps may be off for a bit after the changeover.
Yutsano
@Steeplejack: I’m looking forward to the time-warping stamps. It’s almost worth staying up for just to watch the chaos.
Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude
I have to stop. Good night, and please don’t talk about me when I’m gone.
Anne Laurie
@fraught:
… And, in the case of Andrew Sullivan’s kindly gentle Uncle Bill (Buckley), on their foreheads as well. Yeah, I remember those days, and all the “good Christians” debating “the New Plague — God’s punishment on kweers, or just the eugenical result of Aferkins humpin’ monkeys?” Even when it was a death sentence, the treatment of AIDS in America has always been less about medicine and more about using the fear as a weapon.
J. Michael Neal
@Omnes Omnibus: So, you’re a commaie?
Congrats to the Badgers for getting the job done against Duluth.
Donald G
@Anne Laurie:
After reading fraught’s comments, I was just about to bring up the lizardesque so-called “sensible” conservative (i.e. the aforementioned William F. “The Human Thesaurus” Buckley, Jr) and his support of not only tattooing AIDS sufferers HIV status on their foreheads, but of quarantining them in camps. Yet we daren’t call Buckley a “crypto-fascist” lest he punch Gore Vidal in the face.
Great minds think alike, and all that.
ranger3
People are horrified of HIV, so authoritarians get away with draconian punishment for what should be misdemeanor offenses. But people are also horrified of child sex abuse, and the same dynamic plays out. A man in Colorado got 11 years to life for sex with a 17 year old girl. Now look… age limits are necessary, and no one in their right mind thinks grown men should be going after 12 year olds. That’s fucked up. But 17 is just barely over the line. To me, if the sex was otherwise consensual, and the perp has no criminal record… it’s pretty clearly a misdemeanor offense.
But there was a guy with no previous convictions who had sex with a willing partner who was a few months under age, and he got 11 to life. I’d say that’s pretty much the same thing… anti-sex authoritarians exploiting people’s fears to pass unreasonable laws.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Reader of the Most Depressing Blog Evah, Formerly known as Chad N Freude:
Agreed. This place is like a magnet for idiots but it does make for some fun smackdowns, which is a great spectator sport.
Nothing like free entertainment! :)
Svensker
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
The whole world’s a magnet for idiots. It’s called gravity.
Mold
No, you will not get a pass for sex with a minor. If they aren’t 21, you are just hoping your pedophilia isn’t charged.
NuShawn was unrepentant, made numerous statements that he would continue in at-risk behaviors, and denied any responsibility for his actions. Since some of his ‘partners’ were of elementary school age, the local court deemed him a POS who should be in prison until Jesus calls.