So I opened the door to pull a big box in, and while lifting it, Rosie shot out. I dropped the box to grab her and Lily squirted out the closing door in chase. This is after I had just taken them both for a 20 minute walk, mind you.
I then spent the next 40 minutes driving around town looking for them, and I am afraid that my zen approach to Rosie is failing miserably. I finally found them a mile away from home, on the other side of the swollen creek. At first, I only saw Rosie, and my heart froze- “Oh no- Rosie made it across the creek and Lily drowned and I am going to be stuck with this god damned dog I hate while the one I love is dead.” Then I saw Lily, so the panic left. Lily jumped in the car, and I had to spend five minutes getting Rosie in.
That is my biggest fear- that Lily will some day die and I will be stuck with only asshole. I seriously would not be upset if that damned dog disappeared in the middle of the night. Just run away, already. It is someone else’s turn.
Woodrowfan
how do you know that once they got out that Rosie wasn’t following Lily? It seems like they both love to run and explore…
sukabi
@Woodrowfan: because like most parents Cole has a favorite… LOL.
is Rosie really that much of a pain in the ass, or are you in an emo condition today? :-)
Yutsano
I assume there was nothing fragile in the box?
I’m suddenly glad I live in a secure condo building. If Lexie gets out the front door she can’t go very far. She has discovered the elevator however, so if I’m careless one of these days things might happen…
CaseyL
It’s a horrible position to be in, hating an animal you gave a home to. I’ve been in that position, caring for an abandoned elderly, sickly cat that peed on everything in the house. (At one point I honestly and truly had tarps covering all the furniture.) I wound up double-thinking every decision I made regarding how often to take her to the vet and how far to go in keeping her alive, because I couldn’t bear to think I’d do less than she needed just because I disliked her. When she finally did die of kidney failure, I was so relieved… and felt guilty for that, too!
I think you need to find a no-kill shelter for Rosie, preferably in a rural area.
Omnes Omnibus
You should have known better than to move a heavy box what with your shoulder and all.
kdaug
How was the box?
MattR
@Yutsano: My condo has the additional front door as well. Unfortunately, it does not have a latch and Ellie could push it open if she ever made the effort (though it does stick a bit).
She has gotten away once and scared me, but that was when I was working from my mom’s place. I cam back from taking her for a walk, left the garage door open and then left the door from the house to the garage ajar. I was working downstairs and realized I had not heard Ellie for quite a while. When I went to find her, I discovered the door wide open and no dog in sight. I was a bit freaked out since we were 50 miles from my house in a relatively unfamilar area and I spent about 20-30 minutes driving around the neighborhood with no luck only to find her sitting in the garage patiently waiting for me when I got back.
Jeff
John, I know you’re nowhere close to us geographically, but my mother is an excellent professional dog trainer, and I’m sure she’d be happy to point you at some resources and give you some advice about dealing with Rosie by e-mail.
You can find her website with contact information here
bystander
Cole, seriously, it’s time for some professional help. For Rosie, lest the next casualty be you. You will find it infinitely easier to get Rosie a new set of digs if you can put some basic obedience on her; she doesn’t need a CDX.
Truly, if someone can teach a JRT to do this, Rosie can learn not to bolt at the door!
Keith
I feel that way about my dog (i.e. Rosie) whenever my dog yanks food off the countertop or gets into the garbage or rips open a screen to run loose through the neighborhood at 3am. Fortunately, 95% of the time, he is mellow and completely sweet, having never growled in his entire life and playing nice with the cats. That part makes the zen approach a bit easier (which is what I am trying now after years of various failed punitive efforts I will not mention)
recusancy
20 minutes is not near enough exercise especially if it’s just a walk.
nancydarling
John, if you can’t put that dog in a sit/stay, you need to get both of you into a traditional dog obedience class. I’ve always had big dogs, so control is important. Yes, it’s done with a choke collar and I know some people object to them, but it is far kinder to train with a choke collar than have them tear out the door and get hit by a car. I live in the country now and at least 60 miles from a traditional dog obedience class so Mijo and I have been muddling through on our own. He is 4 years old now, almost 90 pounds, and is finally settling down—and he is utterly devoted to me as am I to him. I finally got a shock collar for him about 3 years ago as it is less than a tenth of the cost of a buried electric perimeter fence. It (the shock collar) totally changed our relationship for the better. I rarely shock him now. Once in a while I do if he gets too close to the road or doesn’t come when called. I have 23 acres so he has lots of room, but he occasionally wanders on to someone else’s land. I don’t think he runs cattle, but that is a killing offense in these parts so I don’t want to take a chance.
Jebediah
Have you tried giving her doggy prozac yet? I’ve had great successes with it, although not specifically with a JRT. Also professional obedience/agility training, if you haven’t already. Years ago we hired a trainer for a few sessions. Her approach was not so much to train Daisy as to teach us to train her ourselves.
Exercise! If Lily isn’t up to it, a second more vigorous solo walk for Rosie. I do that sometimes for Juno, since the aging Otto can’t walk as far or as fast as before. Or you could walk the two for a bit, then pick up Lily and carry her while you and Rosie run a mile or two. OK, maybe that’s not going to happen, and I know you yourself don’t need any more exercise – I guess it would be like, what, I don’t know, gilding a marble statue? But Rosie probably has more energy to burn than Lily.
Are you actively trying to re-home her? Usually your complaints about her are very funny and give the impression that you love her nonetheless. But if not- if you really don’t like her – she knows it, and that must only add to her anxiety and thus contribute to her issues.
I’m glad they were both safe. That feeling of terror you had about Lily being gone, I wouldn’t wish on most anyone.
MattR
@nancydarling:
Uggh. What disgusting logic. I am sure abusive parents think the same thing.
(EDIT: Between this and the shock collar, it is clear that you think pain is an acceptable way to teach your dog)
catclub
I also thought that if JCole lived just a little further north he would have a mudroom with TWO doors.
But the obedience training has to be the real solution.
nancydarling
@MattR: A choke collar, properly used, does not cause pain and is better for the dog than a traditional collar for training. A choke collar has nothing to do with parental abuse.
The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum)
That young dog won’t let him be
Lord have mercy on him
Woe is he
Well, he found that dog in West Virginia
He ain’t naming names
She really worked him over good
She was just like Jesse James
She really worked him over good
She was a credit to her species
She put him through some changes, Lord
Sort of like a Waring blender
Jebediah
@MattR:
If it is the kind of collar I have seen, the stimulation is adjustable. I have had one pressed against my palm, and I didn’t even feel it until it was turned up to three (out of eight.) As it was explained to us, it isn’t to be used as punishment, but more like a remote-controlled tap on the shoulder, to get/redirect the dog’s attention. “Shock” collar makes it sound like the Star Trek agony booth, but I don’t think most people use it that way.
Likewise a “choke” chain – you use it to get the dog’s attention – you don’t pull it tight and hold it, choking the dog until he concedes. Name sounds worse than it is.
alwhite
JRTs are very high maintenance dogs, they are not a good choice for most pet owners. I don’t think there is any shame in admitting defeat on this. You did a damn nice thing by taking her in to start with but the anger & resentment isn’t good for either of you. Check your area to see if there are support groups for JRT, ask at the local shelters. People that deal with those dogs are a special group and they stick together. I think they will appreciate that you took her in when you could easily have dumped her too.
alwhite
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum):
Gad I love Zevon, thanks for the quote!
nancydarling
@Jebediah: Thank you, Jeb, for explaining it better than I did
Jebediah
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum):
Nice!
geg6
Oh, John. I hope you’re just venting.
You seriously need to get some professional obedience training under both your belts. Some dogs never lose that urge to bolt, if given the opportunity. The trick is making them stop and come back when called. Our old Henry will bolt like a puppy if he sees a chance to do it, even though he is terribly arthritic and the laziest dog of all time in the house. He’ll come when called, but he’ll try to make a run for it if circumstances present.
Jackie
I adore dogs. I always have a couple or three dogs. But I have met many dogs I would not own and would not inflict on my worst enemies. You can’t go on like this, John. Rosie needs to go to a no kill shelter. Make a generous contribution and walk away. I know a local no kill shelter that found a home for an incontinent dog. If someone exists that will take that on, then there’s someone out there who will take Rosie.
debit
Cole, you just said you hate the dog. Call a JRT rescue. She deserves to be loved, not tolerated at best.
Liberal Sandlapper
Look. It’s not THAT far to Charlie’s Angels. Take Rosie down there, drop some bucks to a very worthy cause and give both of you a break. Jeebus, that would have to be better than wishing she just fucking disappear.
MattR
@Jebediah: I know what both of them are. Reading nancydarling’s comment it seems like she uses it a bit more than a tap on the shoulder. If the dog can hear her and is not responding to her commands, then shocking the dog until it does is no different than hitting it with a newspaper. Based on the entirety of her comment, it seems that she is a big believer in negative reinforcement to train her dog and therefore she is not someone who I would ever look to for advice in training mine.
Gustopher
@debit: Or contact the JRT rescue and be an “official” foster home, get some help with controlling Rosie, and get some help with placing Rosie.
debit
@MattR: What you said.
Southern Beale
Oh, John. Have you ever tried to train the dogs not to bolt out the door? I’m doing that with mine and it’s working beautifully. A nice exercise is to close the door in their face (gently, not trying to hurt anyone here) until they stop and sit and wonder wtf the human is doing and then when you say OK let them out. Do that a few times consistently with every door — house, crate, car, etc. — and they learn not to bolt out of doors unless you give them permission.
It’s for their own safety.
Ella in New Mexico
A parent who abuses only one kid in the family–the “target child”–usually does so because the kid unconsciously reminds them of things about themselves they can’t allow themselves to see, feel or acknowledge.
Jebediah
And it is finally dog-walking time out here. Anybody want to meet Otto and Juno for coffee, we should get to the Starbucks in 20-30 minutes.
Meg
Time to build that darn fence!
Old Dan and Little Ann
My 10 year old lab has managed to avoid pissing on his tennis ball his entire life. He has come mighty close many times, though. He pissed on his ball 2 times in an hour while we were just outside. This happened afer I threw a shovel full of snow on him. Twice. Lesson learned.
nancydarling
John Cole, Isn’t it nice to know that Ella in NM can get inside your head and analyze your problems with Rosie just like MattR knows what I’m a “big believer in” based on my post. All I know is I have raised and trained 4 large, well-adjusted dogs and I have raised two children who are the finest human beings I have ever known—all with out physical punishment.
BGinCHI
2nd Amendment remedy?
aimai
Woah! John sounds like he needs an intervention. I hope he takes all this good advice seriously. Take Rosie to a no kill shelter, give her a “dowery” of some money and some chew toys, and just know that the family that is just right for her will pick her out in a heartbeat. Otherwise you run the risk of dumping her yourself, one night, when you are out in the car and then pretending to the readers that Tunch offed her and you are protecting him.
Basically the entire Rosie story is starting to sound like a Twilight Zone episode in which the hero (John) turns out to be the villain (the person who dumped Rosie in the first place) or the villain (the one who dumped Rosie in the first place) turns out to be the hero in retrospect having couragously freed himself from this alien life force. I think John needs to separate from Rosie as soon as he can. Its not fair to him and Lily, and its not fair to Rosie.
aimai
LindaH
John, I am going to be the cold hearted person and say it’s time to get rid of Rosie. There is no shame in taking in a stray and finding you can’t handle it. Try to find a no kill shelter in your area or contact a National Jack Russel rescue organization or here West Virginia Jack Russel rescue.
My ex used to say there are thousands if not millions of unwanted animals. Giving up on Rosie does not mean you can’t rescue another dog, if you wish. It also doesn’t mean that you need to feel guilty if you want to own a single dog only.
If you want to rescue another animal, I would look into breed characteristics and find out what breeds suit your lifestyle. It’s no guarantee, but it is a start. There are rescue groups for every breed and if you go through them you can help another dog, that you may be able to learn to love and still give Rosie an environment where she can find someone more compatible with her personality.
I live in Ohio, and here in Rootstown, Ohio we have a group called Rosie’s rescue they have an interesting program called Cell Dogs. These dogs are given to select prisoners (there is a nearby prison) for socialization and training. A professional trainer oversees the training. If you adopt a graduate from this program you will get a dog that has had human contact, has obedience training and even knows some tricks. I’m not sure where you live in West Virginia, but some areas aren’t that long a drive to Rootstown and if you can’t make it, maybe someone who reads this can and a needy dog will get a good home. I have to love a program that tries to help unwanted animals and people who are not prized by society at the same time, so I’m giving it some publicity here.
Whatever you decide, I hope you find peace with your decision. You deserve a dog you can love. Rosie deserves an owner who can love her. Good luck. I know this is a hard decision.
CT Voter
I hope you find a solution that a) doesn’t slowly drive you to hate Rosie or b) make you feel guilty for the rest of your life. It sure sounds like this current situation isn’t tenable. Good luck.
elmo
Aw crap, John. I’ve been where you are and it sucks. Hard. If this isn’t just a passing rage, but is really starting to simmer into an ongoing resentment, you really should find her a different placement, for both your sakes. Not every dog is suitable for every home. Some dogs aren’t suitable for any home, but I doubt Rosie is one of those.
Really, good luck with it, and don’t feel like you’re letting her down if you place her elsewhere. You aren’t.
Gina
Why do you still have her? Actual question, not meant as snark, not trying to make some point.
bystander
@MattR: I guess I read nancydarling differently than you. I didn’t get shocking the dog until it [responds to her command] from what she wrote. I assume we interpreted the inferences differently.
Every dog “accessory” sold can be a sadistic tool in the hands of a sadist. That even goes for the so-called “gentle leader.” There’s nothing gentle about that leader in the hands of a brute. Choke collars, pinch collars, and shock collars all have a place on the shelf. Ideally, those using them know both how and when they’re appropriately deployed.
I’ve seen the trainer I respect a great deal – whose entire emphasis is all about treat and/or clicker training – pull a pinch collar out of the back of a closet to use on a rescued near 80 lb Lab that was tearing his adoptive parent’s arms out of his socket; and the guy was built like a wrestler. The dog was merely being enthusiastic about *everything.* But, the dog was also accustomed to being able to pull his own way to anything he wanted, whenever he wanted. Frankly, pinch – or prong – collars make me squirm, but in the hands of this incredibly sensitive woman, used with great sensitivity, it was probably a home-saving (if not life-saving) device.
quaint irene
Well, obviously you just got them all jazzed up.
Okay, snark aside. Have you had Lily micro-chipped? It would take at least some of that worry away.
joel hanes
Marginally on topic :
Wisconsin temporarily-Governor Walker’s budget includes a proviso to send shelter dogs that aren’t adopted to medical research
LindaH
Well, I have a comment in moderation and I have no idea why. I don’t think I used any unacceptable words. Oh well, ce la vie.
farmette
You need to put up a fence in the back yard. Also, enclose your front stoop/porch. This can be done relatively inexpensively depending on what you design. Enclosure is the answer to exploding-from-the-door dogs. At one time I had 3 of them who collectively whipped themselves into a freedom seeking frenzy every time I opened the door. The fence and enclosed porch routine did the trick.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
Cole, Rosie’s a barn dog. She deserves to run around with animals, roll around on dead animals in the forest, etc to her heart’s content. Don’t inflict this on yourself any longer.
licensed to kill time
Sometimes you just have to realize that a certain dog or type of dog just isn’t a good fit for you. The dogs I’ve had in my life have all been basically calm and affectionate, trainable and responsive.
I have been around other people’s dogs who are hyper, aggressive, yappy, high maintenance or super-needy. I just don’t enjoy being around those kinds of dogs.
There’s no shame in admitting a particular dog isn’t for you. You obviously love Lily and Tunch (despite his general grumpiness) and you have given Rosie more than a fair shot at fitting in with your animal family.
Now, if you’re just venting (again!) then I can only commiserate. Some dogs are just a pain in the ass.
Van
Watch “The Dog Whisperer”. You need to learn to be the pack leader. And he show you how to own the space around the door so that dogs don’t rush at it. I’m sure you could watch episodes on Hulu.
nancydarling
John, I know why you still have Rosie. It’s because you DO love her even though she drives you effing crazy. A kind and loving heart can be a burden. It’s ok to give up on her and find another home for her.
parsimon
Is it just me, or does John Cole not reply much in the comment threads in the first place? (That is, I was tempted to make some remarks about troublesome dogs or cats in the house, but if the original poster isn’t reading or responding, I’m not sure of the point.)
Don’t get me wrong: that’s a fine way to engage in posting. Nothing wrong with that.
PaulW
Stop hating on Rosie. Dogs can tell when a Human doesn’t love them.
You need to ask about for ways to calm Rosie down and make Rosie a more rational, balanced puppy.
Old Dan and Little Ann
@LindaH: La vie
debit
@parsimon: He sometimes does, he sometimes doesn’t. Sometimes he doesn’t even read what his own front pagers post, leading to embarrassing (but amusing) duplicate posts about the same topic.
Re: using force and being the “leader of the pack”: Some tools, in the right hands, are appropriate. But when someone advocates using force right off the bat, that’s a warning sign to me. The leader of the pack method is out of date and modern trainers don’t seem to find much value in it. Plus, dogs are not wolves. They’ve been domesticated for a very long time.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Do we need to get the train to Texas for Rosie going? I’ll kick in for gas, though I can’t drive a leg. There’s a nice commenter with acreage there who has 2 JRTs to keep her company.
rikyrah
I’m not a pet person, but I hope that you can resolve things with this pet.
JenJen
Oh, John. Makes me so sad to read this. I love breeds like Jacks and Aussies, but as sweet as you were to take her in, I think you’re realizing that high-energy dogs (and teaching some basic obedience to these very special and at times challenging breeds) are not your cuppa.
I kind of want to take her off your hands, but you’d have to drive her ass to Cincinnati. I’m thinking this might be worth it for you. Email me or hit me up on FB. Seriously.
John Cole
@parsimon: Of course I read the comments. I try to read every thread, but I most definitely read every section to posts I make.
nancydarling
@debit: When I couldn’t find a nearby, group obedience class for Mijo and me, I called someone who had an ad in a local paper touting his dog training business. We talked and then he said dogs were just like kids and needed the same kind of corporal punishment and was I all right with that. He was out my front door faster than Rosie was Cole’s.
dan
Must read. Kinda sad.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/pet/2248539957.html
Tim
Time for some tough love/talk:
Cole, have you taken an obedience training class with either of these dogs?
If not, shut up about all this dog drama until after you’ve done so.
Even moderately well trained dogs are not going to be shooting out the door past an owner who has bothered to TRAIN them not to do so.
I think you like the drama.
parsimon
@John Cole: Why, hello. Sorry; I didn’t mean to sound querulous at all. I just wondered. I’m slightly embarrassed.
CT Voter
I think you like the drama.
This is a tough crowd over here at BJ….
Tim
@Gina:
Codependent.
Tim
@CT Voter:
I think you like the drama.
This is a tough crowd over here at BJ….
CT Voter, I direct that comment at John in only the most loving/caring manner, as would a participant in any intervention. :D
I am codependent as hell myself, which is why I learned to watch for all the attendant behaviors so I can correct them when they pop up. John has been bitching about Rosie for what? 18 months, two years? And he hasn’t taken measures to find her another home or take training/obedience classes to alleviate the problems…THAT is near text book definition of someone in a miserable situation who actually on some profound level gets something positive out of the stress and discomfort.
Seriously, it’s not a moral judgement, it is a practical evaluation.
kdaug
@CT Voter:
You must be new here.
Look, Cole, fail early, fail often. Can’t find any fault here. If the relationship’s not working out, sometimes it’s nobody’s fault, it’s just the way it is.
Do what your heart tells you (manifestly a good one), but don’t guilt yourself over this.
Shinobi
@nancydarling: So your argument is that shocking a dog is not physical punishment? I’m sure the person on the recieving end of a shock would disagree.
If that’s how you want to train your dog that is fine, but lets call it what it is please.
Gina
@Tim: I’m curious to hear what John has to say though, I don’t remember him ever mentioning why. I don’t know the guy well enough to surmise anything, so it’d be interesting to hear what he has to say on that level.
Not that I think you’re wrong, I just know that I don’t know what’s going on in John’s head, except for what he’s written about being miserable. I don’t recall seeing any posts about why he keeps at it from his own perspective.
CT Voter
@kdaug: @Tim:
Not new here, but was a little taken aback at some of the comments. I lost a pet recently–and shouldn’t have even read this post, probably–so I suspect I am being a bit hypersensitive on John’s behalf…
nancydarling
@Shinobi: Shinobi, This was covered by bystander at 42. Sheesh!
poq
John
The point of helping stray dogs is not to make your life miserable or hurt those you love (including lilly.)
You’ve done a good job with Rosie. It is time to give her to a no-kill shelter and hope someone else adopts and loves her. You arent doing anyone any good at this point.
I’m serious this isnt a joke comment
susan
Read Inside of a Dog
What Dogs See, Smell, and Know
by Alexander Horowitz
This terrific book (19 weeks on the New York Times best seller list) will help you understand what it is like to be Rosie! Once you are able to get inside Rosie’s head, you may find ways to interact with her that are rewarding for both of you.
“Inside of a Dog is a most welcomed authoritative, personal, and witty book about what it is like to be a dog. Alexandra Horowitz has spent a lot of time studying our best friends and shares her knowledge in a readable volume that also serves as a corrective to the many myths that circulate about just who our canine companions are. I hope this book enjoys the wide readership it deserves.”
—Marc Bekoff, author of The Emotional Lives of Animals and Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals (with Jessica Pierce)
matoko_chan
John Cole.
Is there some reason you can’t have an electric fence?
CriticalMass
I had a Golden Retriever that I rescued some years ago, that I absolutely loved. A few years later, we rescued an Irish Setter to be a companion to the Golden. Needless to say, the Golden couldn’t stand the Irish, and I couldn’t warm up to him much either. The Golden got old all of a sudden and had to be put down. I would have gladly given up the Irish instead. I even resented the Irish for outliving the Golden.
Long story short, the Irish changed dramatically once the Golden died. Quite quickly became the best dog I ever had. The dynamics changed and all the players responded accordingly. No promises, just saying.
susan
@ 72 I wrote: Alexander Horowitz
Should read:
Alexandra Horowitz
Triassic Sands
John, I feel for you, but it is time to stop complaining and take some affirmative action.
As commenters above have pointed out you seem to have a few choices (besides just continuing the status quo):
1) Find a no-kill shelter for Rosie.
2) Get professional help for Rosie. I wonder if your negativity toward her — is it really hatred? — has progressed to the point where you will never accept her even if she changes.
3)Find a new home with people who understand what they’re getting.
The one thing that makes no sense at all is to continue without some significant change.
Good luck. Act soon.
nancydarling
@matoko_chan: You’re just asking for it. Some of the posters here would oppose the fence even if it solved the problem because the dog has to wear a collar that shocks him every time he crosses the perimeter and that would be physical punishment. Also, it wouldn’t solve the problem of bolting out the door unless you kept the collar on 24/7.
I’ve had enough of this thread. I’m headed out to the pasture with Mijo, sans collar as he doesn’t need it when I am with him. We are picking up mule manure for my garden.
Do what your heart tells you, John. As kdaug said, it is a manifestly good one.
matoko_chan
@Triassic Sands: wallah…the only thing Cole needs to do is get an electric fence.
Invisible fence.
You can just lay the wire on the ground around the fence perimeter.
My aunt is a JRT breeder and it works great.
Rosie and Cole will get along much better if she gets enough exercise.
SiubhanDuinne
@LindaH: You had more than three links, I believe.
JenJen
@dan: :-(
What I wouldn’t have given for my beloved dogs Strider and Stu to have lived so long as this poor, unloved dog.
“He sort of likes having it all over himself.” Yeah, no, he doesn’t. Gosh, sometimes, I really hate people.
eemom
ok. I am now forced to agree with It for the second time today.
Invisible Fences are the shiznit. The shock is mild and the dog quickly learns to avoid it by, you know, staying in the yard. Dogs can run freely in the yard, get plenty of exercise, and as a side benefit, not demand walks every ten minutes.
I’ve had it for 20 years through two generations of dogs and it works great. Everybody’s happy.
Jane2
@debit: Amen.
@LindaH: Double amen.
John, a generous JRT-owning person in Texas has made the offer to take her more than once. You’re not doing her any favours by keeping her.
parsimon
@Jane2: Heavens, if that’s true, John does have to ask himself why he’s hanging on.
matoko_chan
@nancydarling: look. my aunt is a breeder.
Her dogs learn almost instantly. JRTs are smart.
And JRTs are NOT THE SAME AS OTHER DOGS.
They need MOAR exercise.
The fence would be good for Tunch and Lily too.
and you do keep the collar on all day.
Allen
You know, I have a neighbor who has a Jack Russell (Jackie) that’s really well behaved (for a Russell). One day she was down at the park that’s about two blocks away and the Russell took off after a squirrel and a mad chase ensued. A bit later I see Jackie running up the street to her apartment, standing outside her front door, barking up a storm. I can hear her owner calling and searching for her a couple of blocks away. Off goes Jackie looking for her owner but comes back pretty quick at starts barking at her front door, which the owner can hear but because of our geography can’t locate the sound. Off goes Jackie again looking for her owner but comes back really quick to her apartment. This goes on quite a while, dog barking outside at her apartment door, owner searching, and calling the dog throughout the neighborhood. this made for an interesting afternoon.
matoko_chan
Have you ever determined Lily’s breeding, Cole?
My friend that is a vet student thinks she might be part Shiba Inu, or “small japanese dog of the woodlands.”
They are famous for only attaching to one person.
Josie
@Triassic Sands: This. John, You have had two offers that I have seen to take her. You are in close touch with a no kill shelter. There are rescue groups who would help. Instead of wishing harm to the dog, get off your keester and find her a new situation.
John Cole
I WILL NOT ADMIT DEFEAT, DAMNIT.
I am finding a trainer.
nancydarling
@John Cole: Came in for a bathroom break. Bless you, Cole, and Rosie, Lily,and Tunch. Back to shoveling shit.
Maude
It’s Rosie, not John. The previous owners were wrong, for sure, but I imagine they couldn’t stand anymore and let Rosie fend for herself. It is also possible that Rosie took off and they didn’t go find her.
It must be hard on Lily to have Rosie there. Tunch is a cat and can keep his distance.
As I’ve said before, I couldn’t handle Rosie or live with her.
gogol's wife
@John Cole:
Yay. I didn’t want to comment here because I have never had a dog, cats are so easy, and I have no room to talk (plus no expertise with dogs). But I was sad for Rosie. And I get the feeling you really love her.
Hyd
I’ll throw a vote out here for Lily being part Shiba. Unless she’s sane, in which case no way is there any Shiba Inu blood in her.
/owns a Shiba
Josie
Well, all right then, at least that is an active solution–much better than complaining. Best of luck to you, Rosie, Lily and Tunch. We will, of course, need periodic updates.
Corner Stone
@John Cole:
Typical John Cole at it’s finest. Already beaten but too stubborn to just admit it.
RobertB
Invisible Fence Worked For Me. If the dog is halfway bright, it’ll get shocked once or twice then figure it out pretty quick. The fancy ones can be programmed to give a warning when they get within a certain range of the fence, so the beep tells the dog, “Watch out.”
Joseph Nobles
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum):
Shouldn’t that last line be “Had him picking up her feces” just for rhyming’s sake?
merrinc
@John Cole:
Okay. But if you change your mind and take mattr’s advice about giving her to Charlie’s Angels, I will be in Fairmont the weekend of 3/18-20 before returning to NC where I live a couple hours from Brevard. I would be happy to provide transportation for Rosie.
Delia
@John Cole:
I watch both the Cesar Milan and Victoria Stillwell shows quite a bit. I know they’ve both dealt with problems like Rosie’s. I’m sure you can find someone in your neighborhood who can help you.
Now I’ve got to take my boy for a walk. He’s an escape artist. I spent $500 last summer on various fence improvements to keep him in and I still find him studying the area he regards as the weakest section, trying to figure out how to get through. And he just turned 12.
Sarah in Brooklyn
I’m so glad you’re still trying. If it comes to the point where you need to transport her, I’m ready to chip in, though I’m in NYC so I’m not sure I can do any of the driving.
WaterGirl
@John Cole: Question, John. If you’re in a bad relationship with a woman, is it admitting defeat to end the relationship? Or are you both better off for ending it?
Anne Laurie
@MattR:
Between ‘shock‘ and ‘shot‘, yes, for some dogs a shock collar IS the better alternative. Can you not read? Dogs that run cattle, or in some states deer, can be shot on sight. Some states even require law enforcement officials to shoot dogs who are reported running game and/or livestock — it is not unknown for a disgruntled neighbor to complain that they saw a dog chasing deer, and demand that the local animal control officer do their duty by killing the dog. I applaud the use of aversion therapy by a responsible owner to keep a large, highly-reactive dog from becoming a local nuisance and possibly sealing its own death warrant!
eemom
hmmm. I’m beginning to see a certain parallel between John’s perseverance with an infuriating, persistent, attention-sucking, uncooperative DOG…….and his perseverance with a similarly characterized, but less cute and endearing, commenter….
Anne Laurie
@Ella in New Mexico: One reason the Spousal Unit and I chose not to have kids is that if a child is endangering its life and your sanity, the authorities frown on locking it in a crate. Abused kids, psychobabble aside, tend to start as high-reactive babies with special needs. It could be argued that parents should have the legal option to give up such infants before both parties get caught in a negative feedback loop, but the immediate reality stands: Rosie is not a good match for the Cole household is not a good match for Rosie. For the sake of all four members of that household (JC, Rosie, Lily & Tunch) the best & kindest thing is for Cole to give Rosie to people who will find her the household where she can be loved as Lily is loved.
Maude
@Anne Laurie:
Wishy washy people won’t like you for saying that.
You put that so well.
nancydarling
@Anne Laurie: Bless you, too, Anne. Mijo is on the bed asleep. He doesn’t get on the bed until I spread his sheet out for him, he doesn’t bolt out the door, he doesn’t get out of the truck until I give him permission, he waits for me to go in first when we enter the house. I can put a favorite treat in his bowl for him, tell him to sit, walk out of the room for a couple of minutes, and he will wait until I come back in and say ok before he eats it. This is what training will do and at 90 rambunctious pounds, it is necessary. Mijo has a little brother, Max the black cat, who is also a rescue. The only time I ever raise my voice to Mijo is when he is getting to rough with Max. A very loud HEY usually suffices. The two of them love each other, and Max frequently starts things. At night when we are all in the bed, Max washes Mijo’s face and ears. We are a happy little family, and yes, I will continue to use the shock collar when needed (very rarely). I take no pleasure in it except the pleasure of knowing I am keeping one of my best buds safe.
IronyAbounds
Cole, if you were mired in a very unhappy marriage would you just suffer through it no matter how unhappy you were? Yet you’ll not consider divorcing your dog, which is making your life miserable? Life is short big guy, don’t ruin it unnecessarily. People are pointing out options that don’t involve putting Rosie to sleep. Use them for god’s sake.
Jebediah
@John Cole:
I had a feeling that was a big part of it. I am very optimistic about how this will turn out. If it involves giving Rosie a bunch more exercise, it might even get you back to being fit and trim again. Not that there is anything wrong with having slightly more rounded edges…
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Maude: I agree with you and Anne Laurie is accurate. Sigh.
Jess
For those who think a shock collar is cruel: have you seen how dogs teach each other about boundaries? If a warning growl or bark doesn’t work, the dominant (but well-balanced) dog will get physical, not causing harm or even pain, but just to get the point across. It’s nothing personal and no one ends up traumatized. Humans aren’t so physical unless we get really angry, so we find it uncomfortable to use touch to communicate. We associate it with anger and violence, but it doesn’t have to be that way.
Trainers who know what they’re doing use a shock collar setting that’s like a firm poke. It’s not punishment, just a tool to get the dog’s attention (many dogs get overly fixated on things like squirrels across the road, and forget to pay attention to things like speeding cars bearing down on them) and to communicate from a distance that their leader disagrees with whatever they’re doing. It’s no more abusive than shouting “hey!” at your kid before s/he runs into the street.
Interrobang
John, give her up. There’s no shame in admitting that a JRT isn’t the dog for you. I wouldn’t blame you, because JRTs are the breed that could make me hate dogs; they’re cat-killing, manure-eating, my-favourite-bone-is-in-your-shin, stranger, disgusting little balls of aggression and hyperactivity.
Anne Laurie
@Tim:
Depends on the dog. Ninety percent of the time, ‘training’ is all that’s required, but some dogs have a glitch in their programming that makes them wanna run run run like the wolf no matter how much training they have, how much exercise they get, how much attention they’re given otherwise.
This is one of common reasons dogs end up in shelters — one of our rescue papillons is a ‘perfect’ pet, mellow, housetrained, unfailingly polite with humans & cats & other dogs. His foster parents couldn’t understand why he’d been dropped at a shelter (with all his medical records) in the first place. The day after he came to live with us, he jumped out an open window, dropped four feet onto gravel, and disappeared into a cold, drizzly November Sunday evening before I could get through the door. Thank goddess, some nice kids managed to pick him up (“He’s really fast! — we couldn’t catch him, but when we opened the car door he jumped right in”) on the wrong side of the third-most-dangerous freeway intersection in the state. But I went through one of the worst nights of my adult life before they delivered him to the local Animal Control bureau the next morning. Since then Zevon (as he was re-named)has done stuff like squirming out of his car harness by hanging himself over the seat, and leaping out of the car in a motel parking lot in a strange state. Yes, he’s gone to plenty of training classes (he loves them), and we know to be extra-super-vigilant with him, and he’s even mellowed a bit now that he’s nine years old. But he’ll never be safe off-leash unless he’s in a securely fenced area, that’s just how his brain works.
JRTs like Rosie tend to be high-energy dogs at best, and we know Rosie is a runaway (or throw-away) because that’s how she came to live with Cole. If you love an incurable “bolter” dog, it’s worth the extra aggravation and heartbreak to deal with their issue. If you don’t, the kindest thing for all concerned is to find them another home where they can be loved, brain glitch and all… or at least where they can run around on serious acreage without getting themselves killed.
Tim
YAY!
Um…you know YOU are Rosie’s trainer, right? You actually need someone to train YOU how to train her.
That said, good on you for making the move! Tomorrow, right?
Anne Laurie
@matoko_chan:
I’m still surprised it works with JRTs, although it’s great that it does! The problem with incorrigible bolters & electric fences is that the dog powers through the fence after something interesting, but then he’s afraid to come back ‘home’ and get another shock. Our runaway Zevon freaks out at the sound of bug-zppers and the Oreck air cleaner, and we couldn’t figure out why until our Dog Guru connected it to the tzzp of an electric fence (we don’t have one, but Zeev didn’t come to us until he was five). The problem is that Rosie, like Zevon, might be too headstrong not to run out and too sensitive-after-the-fact to come back in. Although I suppose an excess of sensitivity is not your standard JRT problem!
bookcat
Rosie deserves to be loved. Let her go to someone who clicks with her. What if this happened to Lily? What if her previous owners kept her but hated her? Rosie’s forever home is out there, her human is out there. Help her find her home.
Tim
@eemom:
eemom, it is SO great that you have finally found the will to look in a mirror and see yourself as the problem. I’m sure Cole will appreciate it too when your resolve starts showing itself in your behavior here.
Good on ya! :D
Anne Laurie
@John Cole: Good for you. But listen to the trainer, and if they suggest that Rosie would be happier in a different household, take their advice, okay?
nancydarling
@Anne Laurie: I know someone whose dogs were so freaked by an invisible electric fence, that they refused to go out doors. My neighbors 3 mules and a hinny live on my place. The pasture where my garden is needed grazing so the neighbor and I put an electric wire around the garden area. We never electrified it and it fooled them for about 10 days. I don’t know which one of the four figured out we were lying to them. They really didn’t do any harm, but they are banished from that pasture again since I have started the prep work for spring.
Anne Laurie
@Hyd:
There seems to be a gene set for ‘spitz-type dog that bonds fiercely to one individual’. At one end of that cluster you get Chow Chows, at the other, Shibas, the Tibetan Terrier/Lhasa/Shi-Tzu lineage, American Eskimo/Pomeranians, and the Toy Spaniel/Papillon/Chinese Crested/Chihuahua breed-family. I suspect Lily’s immediate breed heritage is more likely part Chihuahua than Shiba, but that’s only because I think there are many more Chihuahuas in rural West Virginia.
eemom
@Tim:
nah, good on you. I knew SOMEBODY would walk through that glaringly obvious open door, but frankly didn’t expect it to be you. There were, after all, a total of three dots to connect. Congrats on having officially Exceeded Expectations.
Delia
@IronyAbounds:
People go to counseling for unhappy marriages, too, before they head for divorce. And a dog isn’t a human. As Cesar always says, dogs live in the moment. If John can find a trainer who can help him correct Rosie’s bad habits, then it’s all good. If it doesn’t help, then he’ll know he’s done everything he can.
Geeno
JC, find the nearest no-kill shelter and drop her off. You have done your level best, Rosie just isn’t for you or your life style.
You tried your best to raise her; you tried your best to place her. It’s just not working out.
Good on you for the effort. You tried a lot harder than I would have, frankly.
Aries Moon
Wow… hate is a strong word. Maybe she feels it. Maybe it’s time to let her go?
Delia
There’s another thing about no-kill shelters, at least where I live. The Humane Society shelter has gotten some bad press for only accepting dogs that it considers it can get placed in a reasonable amount of time. Sometimes that means the job of euthanizing gets foisted on the county pound. But sometimes it means that they decree that a dog has “behavioral issues” that mean they will euthanize it. I had an interesting conversation about this with a woman at the dog park one day. She used to volunteer at the shelter, but stopped because she was upset with their policies. Just saying . . .
matoko_chan
@nancydarling: wha? a stock fence is way different than an invisible fence.
It sounds like your neighbor had the collars set way too high and freaked out her dogs. the collars are adjustable.
One of the professers here has two Irish wolfhounds and three acres.
Now HE used a stock fence, double hotwire, top and knee, and a solar power box.
Stock fences are live and have to be held away from the post with plastic insulators.
Our ponies usta feel the wire with their whiskers to see if it was hot.
Ponies are wicked smart.
@Anne Laurie: The invisible fence is a covered wire, that you can just lay on the ground. The collar transmits a warning signal when the dog gets close.
Invisible fence colorado is what my aunt recommends for buyers, because a jack can climb a 6 ft woven wire fence, or dig under any standard fence made.
Lightening can make a dog bolt the fence if they have a lot of storm fear.
But I bet it will work for Rosie. And it would be nice for Lily too.
Tunch could use it with supervision if there are no escape trees.
matoko_chan
@Anne Laurie: I think she looks like a Shiba…sesame coat? and the tail curled over her back?
My vet-to-be friend says that aisan dogs were bred to be one person dogs…because…when they end up being eaten only one person had to abstain the meal. (gulp)
They are all guard dogs. The littles like the shiba would wake up the biggers.
The other thing…is shibas are very shy…almost like a wild fox.
It just reminds me of what Cole said when he got her.
I love all dogs. Someday I’m going to have 6 dogs.
And my own farm.
;)
matoko_chan
@Anne Laurie: the collar beeps as the dog approaches the fence. there is a warning signal.
snarkyspice
The word ‘hate’ really makes me sad for Rosie.
You are a good, good man who has done his very best, but if you really hate Rosie, please don’t see this as a battle of wills. Please let her go to one of the people who has offered to take her, and who would be able to love her.
She knows how you feel about her and if you’re serious about hating her, that’s not good for her at all.
Keith G
@John Cole:
Its about fuckin time, Cole.
Cassidy
Kegogi?
Cassidy
Tim sounds like a real dill-hole. One of those know it all pricks who has to tell you what they think while you’re at the dog park. Instead of, you know, minding their own business and keeping their over-sized rat from humping someone’s leg.
Jebediah
Also, too, Cole – I am sorry you are getting so much stress as your reward for doing a truly good deed. You must be building up some great karma.
I think that with a good professional trainer, the four of you will be fine and happy. But if the trainer thinks Rosie will be better off re-homed, I hope you won’t feel like you failed her. As others have also said, you have done so much more than most would.
Captain McDoctor
How is giving Rosie to a no kill shelter “admitting defeat?” She is making John miserable. Giving her up is only defeat if you define the situation in a screwy codependent way. In my reading, “defeat” is the outcome wherein John and Rosie have the worst life experience, which in this case appears to be John keeping Rosie.
maye
Place some print ads in local newspapers in horse country in Northern Virginia (Middleburg, Purcellville, etc.) JRTs belong on horse farms, not in suburban households. Include a cute photo of her with your ad. As someone else said, this dog needs to be in a barn with horses and horse people.
Seriously. Try it. What have you got to lose?
Tim
@Cassidy:
“dill hole.” Could you expand on the etymology? I rather like that term.
rachel
@Cassidy: Nice.
LiberalTarian
Bummer John. I hate all of my cats some of the time, hopefully not all of them at once for any length of time.
Rosie is … um … not right. Now, people who love JRTs will tell you she is fine, but c’mon. People who love JRTs aren’t quite right either. ;o)
Hang onto her until you can give her away. You saved her life, and she is not the fat kennel puppy you found in the road. But, do give her away. If you can.
My cat Abby–the Destructor, smelly farty neurotic cat–is kind of like your Rosie in the “man I hate that freakin’ animal” department. I just don’t feel like anyone with respect for themselves would take him on. And, he beats up on Uncle Milton, which is really a drag. ;o)
But, well, no one else will love him, and sometimes I think he’s the sweetest kitty. But, if you don’t feel like Rosie is awesome sometimes, cut the ties. You can do it kindly, I know you can.
Larkspur
Last time you posted about hating Rosie, John, I was all in the comments offering suggestions, blah blah blah. Include me out. You won’t listen to anyone, you won’t help yourself or Rosie.
TuiMel
@alwhite:
I agree wholeheartedly. Shit or get off the pot. You are not evil if you give her up to a rescue. Maybe Evelyn at Charlie’s Angels can help you. Lord knows, you and your readers have helped her cause. Further, you are not noble by keeping her and hating and resenting her all or most of the while. You have made a gallant try, but she is not for you. Maybe she could be trained to be maybe not. But you need to change the plan. This clearly is not working.
chaucer
i’ve had dogs all my life and i thought i could love any dog. well, i got an eskimo spitz years ago and hard as i tried to love that dog i just couldn’t. i ended up hating her as much as you hate rosie. i felt incredibly guilty about it ’cause how can you hate a dog?! i was so glad when that little bitch ran away. i never saw her again and i didn’t lose a minute of sleep.
but, in hindsight, i wish i had done more to give her to someone who could love her or taken her to the shelter. it’s only fair. even though i hated her i didn’t want her to suffer; i just wanted her gone. so, please, give rosie away or take her to a shelter. today! before lily does get hurt.
matoko_chan
@maye: I tried to get him to do this. Theres loads of hunts where he lives. Huntfolk can do JRTs.
@John Cole: your parents have jacks. What are they doing differently?
Sko Hayes
Poor John. You complain and complain and complain about this dog, and do nothing to fix the situation. Most people here can see that the dog would be better off with people who understand JRTs and are used to dealing with them.
But you don’t want to admit defeat. Well too late for that, when you start talking about hating an animal in your own home, you’re defeated.
Skip dumping the dog at the no-kill and find a JRT rescue that will take her and find a suitable home.
A trainer will help the situation, but Rosie will still be Rosie. Think about that.
Paul in KY
@Anne Laurie: In Kentucky, if your dog is not ‘under positive control’ and is on someone elses property, they can legally shoot your dog.
Dogs that run sheep get shot.
Paul in KY
@nancydarling: My friend moved to the burbs & got a house with 1 acre. Put in the electric fence (underground one) for his 2 dogs.
One of them, after the first shock, didn’t go off the patio for 6 months!
Paul in KY
@matoko_chan: When my friend installed his electric fence, he asked for volunteers to test it. One of his son’s put it around his upper arm & went thru. Said it was quite painful.
nancydarling
@Paul in KY: Paul, It’s too expensive to put an invisible, electric fence around 23 acres. The collar has worked well for me at a cost of $200. As I’ve said above, I rarely have to use the shock mode. It has a beeper mode as well, and that is almost always enough.
Paul in KY
@nancydarling: Understand about the 23 acres. The collar you are talking about has something in it that will shock when you press a button, not when the animal comes close to a fence.
Should have known that those would be an option. Thanks for responding.
Graeme
You knew when you named her she’d be a whole lotta woman.
4jkb4ia
@The Ancient Randonneur (formerly known as The Grand Panjandrum):
Absolutely perfect.
fasteddie
Options, in order of extreme-ness
1) Obedience training ( a good idea regardlesss ) – Bad Dogs are untrained. ( or untrainable which is a possiblility, I guess )
2) invisible fence ( also a good idea, regardless ) – to protect Lily as well.
3) Doggy Prozac
4) no more rosie – send her away
matoko_chan
@Paul in KY: I only have experience with Invisible Fence of Colorado. I have walked over the wire with it in my hand.
The shock strength is adjustable. It was quite mild.
IF advises to set it at medium to start training, and then go up or down depending on the individual dogs response.
It might be other fencesystems have only one setting.
Paul in KY
@matoko_chan: Appreciate your response. In complete sentences, no less ;-)
matoko_chan
@nancydarling: ? IF just uses covered twisted pair. not that much more than 2 strands of poly hotwire, and equivalent to fence hottape.
people out here dont use the tape, because it presents too much wind surface.
the fence doesnt shock the dog, the collar does.
matoko_chan
@Paul in KY: I’m TRYING dammitall.
josefina
@matoko_chan: I’ve known several dogs that behaved exactly as Anne Laurie described: they’ll blast through the invisible fence in the heat of the chase but hang back from it when it’s time to return. Rosie sounds like she’d be fully capable of doing this.
I’ve also known dogs who learned to crawl under and/or jump over standard electric stock fences. One of these dogs lived where I grew up and did chase cattle. He crawled back to the neighbor’s house and died after being gut-shot.
Electric fences, visible or otherwise, aren’t the universal, foolproof solution you seem to think they are.
Sko Hayes
While I do like underground fences for some dogs, you have to remember that it does nothing to protect your dog from other dogs coming on the property and starting a fight. On another note, most states do allow shooting of dogs who are running or attacking livestock, and in many states the farmer is entitled to double damages if any of the livestock are injured or killed.