While liberals and progressives are united with unions and the working class over the events in Wisconsin this past week, I’d like to recognize the vital role that the Third Way has played in all this. They’ve really shown us where they stand, having said… not one word about the events. Not so much as a press release.
Anyone who sends a dime to those clowns would be better advised to spend it on liquor and gambling.
*** Update ***
After further thought, I would like to offer my profound apologies to drinkers and gamblers. I didn’t in any way mean to unfairly smear you with an association to Evan Bayh, Harold Ford, and the rest of the Third Way/DLC sociopaths. My remarks were uncalled for and I apologize.
Comrade Luke
Paging Harold Ford…
General Stuck
These aren’t third way times. These are form a political skirmish line days.
arguingwithsignposts
Stomp, Stomp, Stomp on them threads!
agrippa
The DLC is a negative force. They did no good in the 111th Congress. Nothing good afterward. I would have to try really hard to something good they did prior to the 111th Congress.
They need to be replaced by more progressive Democrats.
robertdsc-PowerBook
Like like like.
Alexandra
http://perspectives.thirdway.org/?p=952
To be fair, Bill Schneider wrote a piece that referred to it on the front page of their website, John, entitled ‘GOP acts out revenge fantasy’. It took me about 5-6 seconds to find it. Not that I agree with their overall stance on politics…
agrippa
@General Stuck:
yes, general stuck, they are.
General Stuck
@arguingwithsignposts:
Today might set a record for most thread posts, already nearly two front pages covered.
joe from Lowell
@General Stuck:
Spanish songs in Andalucia…
JonathanW
This whole thing has made me want to get a teaching certificate after my wife graduates and we settle somewhere.
Probably even run for union rep.
Baud
@Alexandra: There is also an article on how moderates aren’t liberals.
EDIT: Formatting hell.
Violet
If you click on their website, their top articles are all pimping themselves and their centrist idea. That’s it. Me me me me me me me. Look at me. Look how great I am.
Ugh.
danimal
I used to consider myself a moderate Dem, and in fact I still don’t have the hippie credentials that most of y’all have ’round here. That said, I don’t see any need for DLC/Third Way groups at all. This is just not an environment for splitting the difference. Until the GOP moderates (which could be years), it’s just foolish to seek a ‘third way.’
I’m all for civility and I understand Obama/Reid’s negotiating style isn’t always appreciated for being tough (though I believe it actually is), but splitting the difference is a fool’s errand.
Jonas
BUT WHAT DOES NO LABELS THINK?!
justawriter
But you have to admit they have been very, very civil.
John W.
@Jonas:
Nothing there either. Of course, I could be wrong, because every second I spend on their site I feel myself getting dumber.
BGinCHI
The Jon Stewart of think tanks.
Southern Beale
This is Scott Walker’s Waterloo:
Baud
@danimal: I’m with you. I consider myself moderate only because I believe most people who call themselves liberal would not consider me liberal.
Skalite
You say that like liquor and gambling are poor choices for the allocations of one’s disposable income…
jk
Jon Stewart should go the way of the DLC ASAP.
asiangrrlMN
Who the fuck are the Third Way? They sound like a bad boy band or something.
Alexandra
@Baud:
In my limited experience of American politics, they’re right… although speaking as a hybrid transplanted pseudo-Brit with genuine socialist views, and as shrill as I am, I’m not really qualified to comment on American moderates, who seem extremely conservative to me.
stuckinred
@asiangrrlMN: yawn
lol
The DLC hasn’t been relevant for years and I mean that in the way that they haven’t actually impacted *anything* of note since at least 2000. Oh sure, they had a couple high-profile toadies (Lieberman, Ford, Edwards) here and there that get play on talk shows but they haven’t driven anything.
That’s why it’s been so funny that they’re the Great Archenemy of the Professional Left. Just like the Netroots, the DLC is all bark and no bite so they’re a perfect match for each other.
AkaDad
I’m way ahead of you on that alcohol and gambling thing.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I can’t imagine I’m the first to share this, but if you haven’t read Wolcott on Walker…
(Jeeze, what did Stewart do now, or are people just hungry for pie?)
asiangrrlMN
@stuckinred: They’re yawn? Or are you yawning at me for asking?
agrippa
@lol:
blah on steroids
this thread has been seinfelded by “lol”
kdaug
I, for one, sir, need no additional encouragement to squander my money on liquor and gambling.
And I would have you know that my wife would take umbrage (as well she should) at such encouragement from this fine establishment.
“But damn, darlin’, this little den of iniquity in the corner of the intertron is fun.”
Crossed arms, cold stare. “Turn off the computer, kdaug, and come to bed”.
I think I know the inspiration for Angry Birds.
arguingwithsignposts
That apology is way too clear, Cole. You should say “I apologize if anyone took offense.”
stuckinred
@asiangrrlMN: them, you da bomb
chopper
@Southern Beale:
you know he’s off the deep end when he didn’t back down after the fake-koch-call fiasco. that shit’s gonna wreck his so-called principled stand here, and at worst could net him in serious trouble, according to campaign finance law.
he shoulda backed off when he had the chance.
jk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It’s an accumulation of things. Jon Stewart is the pied piper of false equivalency and a flaming douchebag.
Lee Hartmann
apology accepted.
stuckinred
From the Athens Banner Herald
jwb
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “Jeeze, what did Stewart do now, or are people just hungry for pie?”
He did one of his irritating “they both do it” routines.
MikeJ
@jk: Isn’t J,FL the one that coined “hipster Bobo Brooks?”
on edit: david broder, bobo, same thing.
Tax Analyst
Sometimes you really crack me up, John Cole.
jwb
@MikeJ: David, the Older and David, the Younger.
asiangrrlMN
@stuckinred: Got it. I was about to get a wee bit indignant on you. I am many things, but BORING is not one. Harold Ford and his ilk? Yeah, yawn.
jwb
@stuckinred: Do you have a link?
Lev
I have less of an objection to the DLC/New Dem/Blue Dog types than some, but they really never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Shit, if the DLC had made a real effort to seem a part of the Democratic coalition–speaking out on Dem priorities regularly, for example–they’d still be around. But they didn’t. Instead, they never let anyone forget that the Democratic Party was just fundamentally wrong, and that they only cared about what the elites thought. And, sadly, the other moderate groups have copied that tone.
It would literally cost Third Way nothing to put out a release. I guess it would be mildly embarrassing for them to do something grubby like “interest-group politics” instead of inveighing mightily against the debt, but there it is.
Rob Wolfe
Imagine my shock that the key point “No Labels” is making is that the union supporters are being very uncivil.
MikeJ
@jwb: J,FL D,tO D,tY. I need a comma.
I’ll see if I can be MikeJ, the Drunker, but with this crowd I don’t hold out hope.
stuckinred
@jwb: ABH
PIGL
Tony Blair was a prominent Third Wayer. And a liar and a toady and an over-excitable poodle and a war-monger and a killer.
That’s all you need to know about the Third Way.
lol
@agrippa:
I just find it funny that the Professional Left spends so much money freaking out about the influence of an organization that has none.
I was going to make a comparison to Glenn Beck freaking out about the influence of George Soros, but Soros does actually have *some* influence at least. No one gives a shit about the DLC except in the blogosphere.
jk
@MikeJ:
I don’t recall who coined the expression. I never bought into the beatification of Jon Stewart. I always thought he was overrated, now I find him repulsive and The Daily Show unwatchable.
John W.
The worst part is that once it’s over, there’s going to be a self righteous press release about which ever side lost grossly overreached, but the other side didn’t comport itself well either, despite the complete lack of alternatives for the Democratic side.
Christ, at least Sullivan does his silly shit in real time and not three weeks after.
stuckinred
If you don’t like something don’t fucking watch it. damn
khead
As a drinker, gambler and union member, I accept your apology.
khead +4
Tax Analyst
@stuckinred:
So Broun didn’t feel it was necessary to say something along the lines of “Nobody here should be talking about shooting anyone. That’s not how we do things in America.”
Instead he seems to leave the option of shooting the Prez wide open just in case that “conservative, limited-government presisdent” doesn’t get elected in 2012.
A real “Profile in Courage”, that Rep. Broun,isn’t he?
jwb
@stuckinred: Thanks!
MikeJ
@stuckinred: Dude, Stewart is just a comedian and therefore can’t be criticized. He’s also the single most important voice on the left, a liberal Jesus if you will, and therefore can’t be criticized.
stuckinred
@Tax Analyst: He’s a drooling fucking moron and he will never lose here.
John W.
@lol: In fairness, Third Way gets the same amount of attention as Tunch’s anal glands.
stuckinred
@MikeJ: do what you want, so will I.
John W.
@Tax Analyst: @stuckinred:
Stewart’s comedy isn’t funny because it’s based in a deep apathy of actual issues. But that’s exactly why Colbert is better than ever – he actually gives a shit.
Colbert’s the guy who did a bit about #Dadt in fucking Iraq, in Saddam’s palace in front of troops when it wasn’t cool to do it. Stewart is the guy who makes jokes about being sick.
Lev
@PIGL: Funny, I just watched The Special Relationship, about the relationship between Blair and Bill Clinton. There’s a great moment in there after Blair basically forces Clinton into intervening in the Balkans, and Clinton has a moment of ownage when he warns Blair against working with George W. Bush and says something like, “A progressive, center-left politician wouldn’t work with Bush to preserve his legacy. But I don’t think you are a center-left politician, and I don’t think you ever were.”
HELL YEAH! Plus, coming from Clinton, who wasn’t exactly Mr. Left-Wing, made it that much more awesome.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MikeJ:Yup, and I am a “pathetic, psycho moron” and the new breed of firebagger for it. I was just wondering if something new had come up
jk
Why is anyone shocked by Paul Broun’s response?
h/t http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20029697-503544.html
ChrisNYC
Harold Ford has an excuse. He’s left BoA and is just getting settled in at Morgan Stanley. He’s busy redecorating his MS office and putting in for his last BoA expense account draws, John Cole! Heh. Indeed.
KG
Your apology aside, I’m of the general mindset that you’re pretty much always better off spending your money on booze and games of chance/luck.
MikeJ
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You should note that several of us agreed with you.
JordanRules
@John W.: Colbert had a brief character break inauguration night. Choked up real quick and kept it movin’. I’m continually amazed by the potency he still can bring repeatedly.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MikeJ: Oh I know, I’m not sweating it. DougJ, who I believe coined the term firebagger, is also now a firebagger.
Thanks, though.
eemom
oh fer the love of sweet Jesus Hippie Christ, will y’all STOP beating up on Jon fucking Stewart??
Ya know how Greenwald’s Grizzlies are always telling us what a GREAT service he performed during the Dark Years? Well, Stewart did that too — AND he doesn’t fucking HATE Obama, AND he’s not an insufferable, sanctimonious, hypocritical little prick.
And he IS a fucking comedian, not fucking Noam Chomsky.
Gawd but the Stoopid is getting thick around here.
Neal
As a drinker, I appreciate that, John.
Omnes Omnibus
@KG: “I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.” Attributed to George Best, English footballer (Others have said similar things).
eemom
….that said, I agree that Colbert is in a different category. He is most seriously awesome.
Someone quoted the Jesus “least of these” sermon on an earlier thread — Colbert also quoted that when he was testifying before Congress about the migrant workers.
He is the Real Deal.
SIA
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
OH YEAH! YOU GO JAMES.
Lolis
AP actually did it’s job:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110223/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions
I am in shock.
kdaug
@eemom: His best quote ever – “I TEACH Sunday School, motherfucker!”
I’ll see if I can find the link.
ETA: Yeah, he is the real deal – a devout Catholic who walks the walk. Didn’t want to make this sound like it was a punchline – he literally teaches Sunday School.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Lolis: Ron Fournier has moved on.
jk
@eemom:
I’ve never believed that Jon Stewart hated Obama, but he certainly is an insufferable, sanctimonious, hypocritical little prick. Don’t denigrate Noam Chomsky and Glenn Greenwald by including them in the same paragraph with Jon Stewart.
rikyrah
you all crack me up
jk
@John W.:
Well said.
Delia
@eemom:
This. And remember right at the end of the last Congress when it looked like the effort to get the 9/11 responders’ medical aid bill through was going to die? Stewart took up the cause and shined a national spotlight on the issue when all the rest of the media entirely ignored it.
Everybody makes mistakes. Just call him on it when he makes one without catastrophizing his entire personality. I still watch both of them. Frankly, I think each of them do some shows that are great and some that are really wretched.
jwb
@eemom: Your defense would be stronger if that particular routine had been funny. Since comedians are supposed to be, you know, funny.
General Stuck
Did somebody say Greenwald? I didn’t hear nothin”
danimal
@General Stuck: Watch it, Stuck, or they’re gonna call you a shithead.
Again.
Nellcote
@General Stuck:
He was actually very positive about the DOMA thing today on MSNBC. I was surprised.
Glen Tomkins
I agree with the update.
Calling Walker a Koch Whore, while it may be otherwise justified, is really unfair to all those real coke whores out there who don’t deserve to have their collective reputation tarnished by deeply unfair comparisons to Scott Walker.
Nellcote
@agrippa:
I guess that would explain why the DLC shut down.
eemom
@jk:
Don’t denigrate Noam Chomsky by mentioning him in the same universe as Glenn Greenwald.
Matt
Let the record show that Harold Ford gave at least a couple of surprisingly non-annoying answers on the Wisconsin situation on Meet the Press on Sunday. I stopped paying attention pretty quickly, so I don’t know if he sustatined it, but he did not fully suck.
MobiusKlein
Thrid way has nothing on any recent events.
Using their search on their page:
Egypt: Nothing
Libya: Nothing
Wisconsin: Nothing new
It’s just a pile of oldness.
eemom
@Delia:
Good point.
How many worthy causes have Greenwald’s zillions of words, squillions of updates, and plillions of scowly, nasty little name-calling hissy fits ever advanced?
0.
piratedan
well here’s the thing, Jon Stewert is no Bill O’Reilly and when it comes to dissecting the idiocy that is Faux Punditry he’s quite exemplary. Does that mean he can be a bit too wishy washy, yeah, he’s like Hugh Grant when compared to someone like Bruce Willis (for example) when looking for someone to stay on target and call out the nefarious right and their continuous agenda of culture war. Yes, he makes some very nice points but I would prefer someone to blow the evil mfers up, tyvm.
J. Michael Neal
@danimal:
I still do consider myself a moderate Dem. I’m with Yglesias in the dirty neo-liberal pool of the political spectrum. However, I have zero interest in being confused with the DLC/Third Way organizations. They are a bunch of self-aggrandizing assholes.
I consider myself a moderate, because I’m very pro-market. However, a lot of people, including a lot of people who call themselves free marketeers, don’t really understand what that means.
For one thing, it is in no way synonymous with being pro-business. Sometimes it has that effect, but a lot of times it doesn’t. I want to do away with most corporate welfare. I want to close a lot of tax loopholes. And, there’s nothing about higher tax rates that is inherently anti-market.
Being pro-market simply means that most things are far better dealt with in market transactions. It means that a carbon tax, or tradeable carbon credits, are a much better way to reduce CO2 emissions than having the EPA write regulations. It means that, yes, there are a lot of government regulations that really are about limiting competition rather than serving the public good; I still think that most of you looked ridiculous in the argument over barber shop regulation and that the rationales you gave for why they need to be licensed are no less applicable to every single job in the country and that you really would grind the economy to a halt if you had the chance.
Being pro-market does not mean opposing labor unions. Being pro-market actually requires one to support the right to collective bargaining, and not just in a sham way. The labor market is in even greater need for being free than any other market. That means that labor and capital need to be able to bargain on even terms. Absent unions, it doesn’t work that way. There’s also nothing about being pro-market that means one should think that corporate profits are better than higher wages.
Being pro-market does not necessarily mean opposing anti-trust regulation. Quite the opposite, really. You don’t have a free market when any player within it has enough power to affect market behavior on their own. Obviously, this is a place where you have to accept some compromises on the pure ideal, since there isn’t any practical way to keep there from being any participant from having enough power to do that. However, the Justice Department has done a grotesquely inadequate job of enforcing anti-trust regulation for the last thirty years.
Perhaps most importantly, being pro-market means that you need to understand what free markets are well enough to recognize where they break down. There are some goods on which we have sufficiently great concerns beyond efficiency that a free market simply can’t deliver an acceptable outcome. These include education and health care. Oddly, it does not include the provision of food or housing, in which a freeish market provides a better outcome, and rather than distorting it, we should just provide a subsidy to those who are not sufficiently well-off to be able achieve an acceptable outcome within that market. Once you recognize this, people who are pro-market should recognize that arguing that a given policy moves us away from a market solution really isn’t by itself, at all persuasive. We’ve already decided that that’s not what we want, so measuring success by that standard is idiotic.
I suspect that, outside of the barbers, most everyone here broadly agrees with all of that. The difference, and what makes me a moderate Democrat rather than a hippy, is that I find that I think all of this is a lot more important than a lot of people on the left do. They pay lip service to it, but then push for non-market solutions as a first step without really giving any thought to the unintended consequences of it. My favorite example is a local Democratic activist (and member of my church) who believes very strongly that we need to stop urban sprawl and make everyone live more compactly. She also believes very strongly that we have a crisis of a lack of affordable housing. What she doesn’t see is that the policy prescriptions to solve the first problem inevitably exacerbate the second one. I’ve tried to talk to her to get her to realize this, and suggested that she needs to stop and take the time to realize what the real world consequences of her policy desires are. I even tell her that this doesn’t mean that I don’t think that they aren’t both problems, or even that we can’t work to solve both of them. She just doesn’t grasp that they are in conflict, and that you need to think about the effect of the one on the other as you try to craft solutions, and that this is exactly what a market is trying to tell you. Short circuiting the market doesn’t solve this problem; it just hides it.
I’m a moderate Democrat because my thinking about markets is at the forefront of my evaluation of policy. When it comes to economics, there really is no more powerful tool, and you’ll have a much easier time solving your problems if you make it work for you rather than against you whenever possible. I find that too many of the hippies don’t get this.
Sly
Third Way hasn’t been completely silent:
“Delivering for important allies is hard work and we might have to fight someone to support them!”
I’d suggest a change to a less stressful career for Third Wayers and the DLC. They’re far too delicate for politics.
danimal
@J. Michael Neal: I agree with your outlook and your well-stated views. I’m still a moderate, but there just isn’t any reason to separate from the left-wing while the conservative movement is so dangerous. As long as moderate Democrat equals preening assholes like Evan Bayh or Harold Ford, I’m willing to ditch the label. Most of my disagreements with liberals are over semantics or tactics anyway. There may be a day for hippy-punching, but not yet. Besides, they do a pretty good job of punching themselves.
Honest question: Why don’t conservative ‘free marketers’ understand that a fair, strong, consistent regulatory state is essential to the functioning of free markets? The addiction to corporate welfare is just too much, I suppose.
Sly
@danimal:
This is gonna get a little heady, but here I go anyway.
The real value of democracy is seen when it gives people the power to defend themselves against being run over by competing interests. If everyone has the power to defend themselves, then contentious issues have to be approached in the spirit of negotiation and this gives any polity a large degree of stability. If you have a gun, and I have a gun, then we better start talking our problems out before someone gets killed (hopefully not me, but I can’t be sure if that will be the outcome).
A regulatory regime exists to curtail the power of monied interests and gives a level of defensibility to non-monied interests. That’s been the case since the first turn toward a large regulatory regime in the 1870s in order to curtail the power of the railroads: regional interests were being dominated by national monopolies because state-based regulations couldn’t function in such a climate.
So, therefor, Republicans hate regulatory regimes because they hurt the interests that give them political capital. Interests that give them the ability to win elections and secure institutional dominance for their party.
Stan
John,
Perhaps on alternate Wednesdays, you too are a firebagger! I totally get the thing about avoiding the circular firing-squad. But these Third Way Democrats have to go.
J. Michael Neal
@danimal:
They aren’t pro-market. They’re pro-business and have convinced themselves that that’s the same thing.
Xenos
@J. Michael Neal: They are pro-BIG business. That is even one more step away from being pro-market.
Bulworth
Oh c’mon Cole.
There’s this really wonderful article of their’s about The Vital Center. And it says we really need us some more Moderates. Once the unions agree to lie down and take it maybe they can join The Vital Center!
http://www.thirdway.org/publications/372