I think in addition to the fact that these unions endorsed Walker, which is why he may have exempted them from his current union-bashing scheme, there are other obvious reasons why teachers and janitors are so much more fun to pick on. With all the buzz about pensions and deficit reduction and shared pain at the national level, no one ever seems to mention the very generous pensions given to military retirees for a mere 20 years of work.
Police, military, corrections officers- it’s almost like they share some common element that makes them different from teachers and sanitation workers who are traditionally a much more fun target for wingnuts who like to trash people. I wonder what it is?
different church-lady
Well, wingnuts have fantasies about being firemen and policemen and soldiers, and don’t have fantasies about being trashmen and kindergarten teachers. The gun is just a throw-in.
Loneoak
@different church-lady:
Just like kindergarten students.
Church Lady
Defense or protection?
Pococurante
All repressive regimes favor those with guns.
SpotWeld
If only that effort to arm all teachers had gone through, this could have all been avoided.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
I am both a teacher and a janitor. I don’t want anything too bulky, but not too girly either. What kind of gun should I get?
different church-lady
@Loneoak: Exactement!
SFAW
Fixed, I think.
I’d probably exclude firemen from that list, anyway – they don’t usually get to shoot/kill people, which is every wingnut’s secret desire. Especially if the killee is a liberal or member of some other Teh Gay group.
SpotWeld
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel): Something that can make a “ka-click” noise, otherwise the folks over at Red State won’t respect you
Citizen_X
There’s a Molly Ivins quote (which I couldn’t find on teh Googles just now) about how “Republicans mock the Nanny State, but they sure love it when the Nanny State changes sex and puts on a uniform.” (Extracted from memory.)
different church-lady
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel): Go for the combo mop handle/small-bore rifle, with secret chalk case.
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
Finally! A lefty reason to support guns in schools!
If our teachers were packing, they’d get some frickin’ respect!
.
Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel)
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel): Nothing focuses one attention on playing your scales right. Nothing drives home the message, “No liquids in the trash can,” like the sound of a magazine efficiently snapping home.
SFAW
Gee, based on some of your previous comments, I thought you were already packin’, big fella. (If ya know what I mean.)
But, as a backup, a 155 mm howitzer is often highly effective at making your point.
Kristine
@Citizen_X: Gosh, how I miss Molly. Can you imagine the columns she would be writing now?
Paul in KY
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel): How about a nice Walther PPKS. Very nice looking in stainless steel, .380 cartridge that won’t hurt your delicate hands when blowing away creeps. It’s a Walther, so you know it’s made well. Not too big a weapon either, only holds 7 rounds, so the grip is not too thick.
JGabriel
@different church-lady:
No, the gun is not throw-in; it’s why wingnuts fantasize about being cops and not teachers.
.
SFAW
Since when did Parallel 5ths become a wingnut?
Litlebritdifrnt
The funny part of it is (if it wasn’t so damned ironic) is that all the Tea Partiers round this neck of the woods are retired military and civil service. Every last one of them sucking off the government teat whilst screeching “taxed enough already!”
Some of them have the gaul to retire from the military after 20 years then go and work for the City PD or Sheriffs Depts for another 20 and are collecting TWO government retirement checks. They hate it when you point it out to them though.
Benjamin Cisco
@Loneoak:
HA!
Phlip
They wear uniforms with medals. This gives wingnuts boners.
morzer
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel):
Heckler and Koch. That way you get crowd sounds, capitalism and firepower all in one.
Raenelle
I believe would-be dictators have known since Marius that you should not disband your army.
scarshapedstar
Sure, the guns, but phallic symbols also reinforce the fact that they tend to be male.
Punchy
Becuz teachers and janitors are often broads and KneeGroez?
theconstituent
Seriously though, I think the reason that they are ok with generous pensions for cops and military guys is the same reason they are so in favor of tax cuts for much wealthier people- they imagine themselves in the same position, and like money.
It’s easy for them to imagine that in some other universe they are some kind of green beret, and in that universe they feel that generous compensation is in order for their imagined bravery and bad-assery.
They can’t picture themselves teaching kids to read or cleaning up trash, and don’t give a shit about what those jobs pay.
Cris
via Pandagon, I’m going to play the gender card on this stack.
SenyorDave
To me, the obvious difference would be that teachers and janitors would tend to vote Democrat, while police officers and correctional officers would tend to vote Republican.
Paul in KY
@morzer: I didn’t think of an H & K. Good choice, except they cost so damn much.
Edit: SenyorDave is right on here. Those unions all contain lots & lots of Repub voters.
Mike in NC
Obama ATF nominee encounters resistance from NRA and other nutjobs:
Another ally for the nihilist teatards.
The article goes on to note that asshole Chuck Grassley got over $100K in wingnut welfare from the NRA for his last reelection campaign.
Bennie
Ah yes, but you won’t see Radley Balko or any of the folks at reason.com count this as part of the growing police state/spending problem.
I guarantee this.
Maude
@Paul in KY:
But does it come with a mother of pearl handle?
Moonbatman
National Police Misconduct NewsFeed
JPL
Granted, I’ve only heard Walker give one interview but I read about several others. Why hasn’t he been asked about this?
I for one would like to hear his explanation.
nancydarling
I can’t remember where I saw it an hour or two ago, but some Libyan pilots have flown to Malta and asked for asylum rather than fire on their country men and women.
Paul in KY
@Maude: Well I don’t think you get it from Walther with the pearl handle (although I could be wrong). You can always go ‘after market’ and get the pearl handles placed on it by your friendly neighborhood gunsmith (or someone with a screw driver).
Pearl handles go well with stainless steel. Excellent choice, m’am :-)
Svensker
When our little town raised 8-year cop salaries to $85/K plus big bennies you can bet your ass I didn’t go to the town council meeting and complain, even tho that salary was highway robbery. Because I was imagining the 911 call, “Hi, got an emergency over here at 329 Spruce. You remember, the lady who thinks you guys should get a pay cut?” I may be stupid but I’m not an idiot.
And I still think NJ union salaries are too high and I’m not wild about the concept of public employee unions.
That said, Gov. Walker is rapidly bringing me around to changing my mind about all of it. Rise up, Wisconsin!
cleek
@Cris:
ding ding
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cris: a depressingly large part of our politics can be explained by, for lack of a better phrase, gender-issues, machismo and vicarious machismo. The Iraq War (“we’ll put a boot in yer ass”, who’s “we”, Kemo-Toby?), gun politics, fantasies about self-reliance, Chris Matthews
R-Jud
@nancydarling: I’ve just been reading about that on the Guardian’s liveblog. They got the story from Reuters.
Stephen
Let’s not forget the elected officials, turning the knobs on our collective thumb screws, get a lifetime of benefits for only one gig in office. WTF?
stuckinred
@Svensker: Confusing isn’t it?
Maude
@Paul in KY:
It would be lovely wouldn’t it?
geg6
Well, I hate to tell them, but every single union member, with one exception, I know (and this includes the teachers) owns guns. And knows how to use them, too. In fact, a lot of them are ex-military or current reservists/NG members and are extremely well-trained in their use.
stuckinred
@geg6: I don’t know about “extremely well-trained “.
Cacti
The teaching profession also encourages thinking…
The single greatest threat to theocratic and authoritarian rule everywhere.
JPL
I would love to see a comparison between police salaries and teachers. Their benefits need to be examined also.
Yeah side by side comparisons would be nice.
WyldPirate
@morzer:
You forgot, that H&Ks are also good for the Marines to use to go over and interfere in Middle Eastern politics, too, right morzer?
Not like we can trust those ragheads to determine their own political destiny, can we?
AhabTRuler
@Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel): Snub-nosed .357. Sure it’s a revolver, but anything you shoot once will know that it has been addressed by a public servant.
Paul in KY
@Maude: I actually have a PPKS, but mine only has the grips that came with it. Being a DFH, I can’t afford those elite mother of pearl grips.
scarshapedstar
@Maude:
@Paul in KY:
stuckinred
@Paul in KY: OK General Patton!
Chris
I hadn’t even thought of that, but you make a good point. Conservatives are huge fans of cheap populism of the kind you can indulge in without any actual risk to yourself.
You can say the same thing about their anti-intellectualism, e.g. the chickenshit’s anti-elitism: it’s demagogy against an “elite” class that you know will never hurt you. If you go after politicians, they can have you beaten up or even killed. If you go after businessmen, they can pay off politicians to do the same (or look the other way). Intellectuals have no recourse other than to write harshly worded letters (or, more likely, “can’t we all just get along” platitudes).
Conservative activists are chicken, and pigs will fly before they do anything that actually entails the possibility of harm to themselves.
Roger Moore
@Paul in KY:
With a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window. Yes, I know, that was a Connery movie, not a Moore movie. So sue me.
Xecky Gilchrist
I think it’s not just that they carry guns but there’s an assumption about which direction those guns will be pointing if the poor folks start to riot.
Paul in KY
@scarshapedstar: ixnay on the impay, buddy. I’m trying to make a sale here…
Paul in KY
@Roger Moore: Yes, it has about as much range as a brick, but it looks better & is smaller than your standard mark-7 paving brick.
Julie
I think the police are just the last ones standing. The powers that be will be coming for them next.
Paul in KY
@stuckinred: My dad served in his army (the 3rd). He didn’t much care for him.
Bill Murray
Didn’t the Tea Party (through Michelle Bachmann, I think) put up a bill to reduce veteran’s benefits?
eyelessgame
I’ll take “deadly phallic objects” for $800, Alex.
Roger Moore
@Cacti:
It doesn’t have to. You can always teach by rote learning, memorizing times tables and important dates and the like. Conservatives would be very happy if they could force our schools to stop teaching critical thinking and focus more on rote learning. I’m sure that’s part of what they like standardized tests. There’s a right answer and a wrong answer, and you can teach students the difference by filling their heads with answers rather than thoughts. The conservative ideal for our education system is nothing but multiple choice tests, with them and their cronies controlling the questions and answers.
JPL
Someone needs to ask Morning Joe what he thinks about this disparity. ABC news could ask George Will since he thinks teachers are pampered.
Just Some Fuckhead
Oh I know! I know! Not Safe For Work!
stuckinred
@Paul in KY: Third Army I assume? He probably loved Omar Bradley “The Soldier’s General”.
artem1s
well, teaching only leads to more thinking and improving oneself. more and more endless support for teachers and their mind controlled student lackies (also.too.they turn good kids into hippy protesters). While law enforcement and military lead to death. no more milking off the government teat. see. big government solved.
geg6
@stuckinred:
When you go once a month for training or spend every weekend at the target range or shooting skeet or hunting every hunting season (including small game and archery and entering the state lottery for bear and wolves) or all the other places these people go to in order to shoot their guns, I would consider that “extremely” well trained.
stuckinred
@geg6: yea yea, all these union guys spend all their spare time poppin caps
geg6
@Paul in KY:
So did my uncle. My uncle had nothing good to say about him. And that movie just about sent him around the bend. Said it just glorified the world’s biggest asshole.
Tim
wow. Hadn’t thought of that JC. The fascist vibe is creepy, isn’t it?
stuckinred
@geg6: He was a close second to Dugout Doug.
geg6
@stuckinred:
Well, yes, they do. You obviously don’t live in or have any familiarity with the culture of Western Pennsylvania. Hell, I’ve been known to pop a few myself.
stuckinred
@geg6: relax
Roger Moore
@Paul in KY:
My grandfather was also in 3rd Army (90th Division, XX Corps) and he thought very highly of Patton. He said he never believed too much in high-level leadership until he saw troops fighting much better after a pep talk from Patton. Of course it might also have been because his division saw its casualties drop and progress expand just about the time they were reassigned to Patton’s army, even though the reassignment was the result, not the cause, of more favorable conditions.
geg6
@stuckinred:
Heh. Indeedy.
Uncle Bud (served under Patton) used to get into arguments with Uncle Walter (served under MacArthur) as to who served under the bigger asshole. Personally, I choose Doug, if for no other reason than he got a Medal of Honor for Bataan, one that was totally unearned in any way.
Cacti
@JPL:
One could also ask for the equivalent private sector position that requires a bachelor’s or masters degree and the daily supervision of the work of 20-30 people for an average of $53,000 per year.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Actually, I remember having vague fantasies about, well, not my kindergarten teacher, but my 1st grade teacher. Not that I was old enough to know that they were fantasies.
stuckinred
@Roger Moore: Funny how perspectives differ. My dad was on a high-speed transport in the Pacific, 35 landings from New Guniea to Okinawa. He would laugh when the movies would show the troops all stunned when they go word FDR died. “Here we were with Kamakazie’s raining down on us and some old man died in his sleep”. I told that to my father-in-law who was a very late arrival in a WWII Seabee outfit and he had a fit! Ya never know, there are even people who think Westmoreland was some kind of whiz kid!
Paul in KY
@stuckinred: Yes, ‘Patton’s 3rd’. I’m sure he did love Gen. Bradley. As you alluded, all the soldiers loved General Bradley.
Hope you are doing well down in Georgia.
SFAW
Minor nit (is there any other kind?):
I think you’re talking about doing, not being, the teacher.
Paul in KY
@Roger Moore: I think my dad didn’t like his attitude towards lowly conscripts, as demonstrated in the famous slapping incident.
stuckinred
@geg6: He was ordered to un-ass Corregidor and he did. Isn’t that call for the highest award for valor the nation can bestow? My old man’s ship kept getting shifted from the 7th Fleet, Mac Arthur’s Navy and Halsey’s 3d. Of course Halsey was a Tin can Sailor sut still!
stuckinred
@Paul in KY: I’m a bit on edge, the lil cocker is at the vet, she was barfin and had the quick step so I took her in. She is a calamity jane!
Brachiator
I don’t think the state would pay for a federal military pension, or could control it in any way, so it is not applicable.
In California, conservatives are going after every public worker’s pension. This is particularly ironic when these same conservative Californians expect firefighters to put out wild fires for exclusive homes in increasingly unsafe terrain.
Also in California, you have people of various ideologies who want to cut back on the pensions of prison guards, teachers and nurses, but maintain those for cops and firefighters.
stuckinred
DETROIT (AP) — State education officials have ordered the emergency financial manager for Detroit Public Schools to immediately implement a plan that balances the district’s books by closing half its schools.
The Detroit News says the financial restructuring plan will increase high school class sizes to 60 students and consolidate operations.
SFAW
Just think how much money they could save if they closed ALL of ’em.
geg6
@stuckinred:
Jeebus. 60 students per class? If I was a teacher there, I’d be putting a gun to my head at the prospect of that.
stuckinred
@SFAW: Who is it that goes to Detroit Public Schools, remind me will you?
the farmer
And cowboys.
*
Jeremiah Meyer-O'Day
I believe that such wingnuts fail to pick on the above-mentioned groups for two reasons: 1) the wingnuts in question are fascists, and fascists love guns whenever such guns are used to crush resistance to ‘authority’, and 2) they at least unconsciously recognize that they will need obedient gun-wielders to be able to achieve their goals; truly democratic processes rarely if ever result in the massive and obvious disenfranchisement of a majority of the population – see the Shock Doctrine.
debbie
I believe I heard earlier today that Walker exempted police and firefighters’ unions because they had supported his campaign.
McGeorge Bundy
It’s not about carrying guns so much as it is wielding authority.
SFAW
One assumes school-age children who reside in Detroit, but I could be wrong.
Or is there some subtle snark there that I’m (obviously) totally not getting?
Ash Can
@debbie: The right wing’s unhealthy preoccupation with firearms notwithstanding, I think this is part and parcel of what’s happening, at least in this case. Someone here recently mentioned that there’s no reason to think the police and fire unions are entirely immune to being dicked with given what’s happened to the 9/11 first responders, and I think that’s an excellent point (and one that’s evidently not lost on the WI police and fire unions as well). It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if Walker responded to the support the WI police and fire unions have given the public employee unions by going after them next, and in an entirely blatant way.
Jeffro
@SpotWeld: I remember seeing a tongue-in-cheek proposal a while back that was going to combine merit pay for teachers and provide defense against future Columbines by…
…giving the best teachers their bonuses in the form of the best weapons.
So if you’re Teacher of the Year, you’re getting an M-60, MAC-10, or Uzi (imagine how attentive the kids would be!). Mediocre teachers would get, like a six-shot revolver and four bullets, or maybe a Tazer.
You’d want to try and steer your kid out of the classes taught by teachers w/ slingshots in their hip pockets, though. =)
stuckinred
@SFAW: Uh, yea. Think about the ethnic makeup.
steve
I can think of a number of reasons why teachers get picked on:
1. The whole “they get the whole summer off/their workday ends at 3 p.m.” thing. Of course, any teacher will tell you that this is misleading (they take lots of work home, and they don’t get paid in the summer) but it still pisses people off.
2. Most teachers have (or can get) tenure. No matter how you carefully or compellingly you explain this, glibertarian-conservative types think it’s morally wrong.
3. People remember all the unpleasant stuff from their school experiences. How a hated teacher humiliated them; how a beloved teacher was fired and the school board wouldn’t explain why; how they got bullied and the teachers didn’t care; etc. They grow up but still want revenge.
4. If you have kids, you’ll probably be affected by a teachers’ strike at some point. These can drag on for weeks and turn a lot of parents’ lives upside-down, and bitterness over the perceived selfishness of the striking teachers tends be long-lasting.
5. General anti-intellectualism. A lot of conservatives grew up thinking “I’ll never use this in real life” as they sat through algebra or whatever. They still feel that way.
6. Animus toward public education of every stripe. Particularly if you went to a private school like a lot of rich conservatives.
7. A sense that educational institutions are bastions of liberalism. Conservatives remember how they were forced to read To Kill a Mockingbird and other “liberal” stuff and still resent it.
SFAW
Yeah, I thought that might be it, but dinna want to go there.
Cris
This is a problem with strikes in general. Worker solidarity is still a very new concept to our species. Getting ordinary folk to be okay with the idea that a bunch of people whose services they depend on can just walk off the job, and to point their irritation with it at management instead of at the workers themselves, is still one of the biggest obstacles that organized labor has to overcome.
Rekster
Well, I am about as left as one can be and I am also retired military. I feel like I earned my retirement benefits after a year in the rice paddies of Viet Nam, moving my family every 2 years, yanking my children out of school in the middle of the school year and other countless tribulations during a twenty year career. So, I take a little umbrage at some of Cole’s message.
BTW, my taxes just went UP on my retirement. Just received a notification from the DFAS that this would be effective in my March check.
I strongly support the teachers and janitors and all those in unions. BTW, I also don’t own a gun.
satby
@SFAW: Go ahead and go there, the state sure did. And figured they’d get away with it because it’s only going to affect black and scary Mooslim kids…
Jim Pickering
@Rekster: Let’s remember John is just a little past 40. When I joined the Navy, circa 1950 the pay was $75/month plus 3.00 to maintain and replace the uniforms. Moved more than 16 times over the next 22 years including such fun places as Inchon, Korea 52-53, Danang, RVN 69-70 and whole bunch of other places in between. All of my jobs entailed helping to save lives as a medic and later as a hospital admin. Enjoyed the service and would probably do it again, but the retirement benefits really do not make up for all of the sacrifices made while in uniform. They help keep the wolf away from the door and need supplementing to maintain any style of life.
Cris
@Rekster: Take umbrage, but don’t take it from Cole. I don’t believe John (a vet himself) is saying “those damn veterans with their pensions!” Rather, he’s calling out the hypocrisy of those who rail against one class of public servants while treating another as unassailable.
Nick
Cops can get away with whatever they want. Today it was reported a kid in The Bronx got beat up by a cop and the first reaction from everyone I talked to was “what did the kid do to deserve getting beat up” and “these poor cops can’t defend themselves without being accused of brutality”
When I suggested maybe they should wait until the rest of the story is reported to see if maybe the kid didn’t do anything, they looked at me like I had just suggested we should exterminate the Jews.
fromWI
Hi, I’ve been involved in the protests and I’d like to point out that while many of the police and firefighters are exempt from Walker’s bill, several police forces (the capitol police, UW police, parole officers, crime labs and some state troopers) are not, and neither are corrections officers.
Also would like to mention that police and fire (especially fire) have been doing a great job showing solidarity with their union brothers and sisters throughout. Hundreds of Firefighters from throughout the state have been marching in their gear led by bagpipers and madison’s fire chief in fancy dress multiple times a day every day since the beginning. Supposedly they will be joining us sleeping in tonight, along with some off-duty police officers.
Check this out. It will genuinely move you.
SFAW
Jim Pickering –
Thanks very much for your service, especially Inchon and Korea in general. Every day, my family reaps the benefits of the efforts of you and your fellow sailors, soldiers, and marines.
Stevious
men with guns.
fuckwit
It’s not the guns in their hands guns, it’s the ones between their legs. They have penises– or mainly do, and used to exclusively until the 1970s.
Those are MAN jobs! But teaching kids, that’s WOMAN’s work! These wingnut guys have terrible misogyny problems. They hate the “nanny state”. They don’t want the government “mommying” them or “coddling” people. They find the word “community” repulsive. I think Lakoff even wrote a whole pseudy-psychological screed on this very topic.
I think you really nailed it when you pointed out that the Republicans basically hate women.
I mean, come on. What was wrong with these people’s toilet training? Why do they hate women so much?
gleic
Don’t anyone forget how badly Arnold was burned when he went after the police and fire unions in California. The difference isn’t that they carry guns, or have really big hoses. The difference in Wisconsin and why the GOV hasn’t gone after them is because he knows what happens when you attack those unions. No one stands for that. Right now he has a fighting chance of splitting the public between “essential” services and “bureaucratic monkeys”. It doesn’t look like it is working from what I have seen though.
t
“I wonder what it is?”
Are you serious?
Teacher: Woman.
Janitor: Black.
Any other questions?
bob h
Here in NJ policemen have translated this esteem into average salaries of $100k. $120k in some rich towns.
Paul in KY
@stuckinred: Hope your dog gets healthy quick. I have a cat that keep on getting crystals in the urine, which then cut up her urethra, making pissing a literal pain.
She doesn’t seem to drink enough water. Never had a cat that doesn’t drink water. I’m at a loss as to how to help her. Only thing vet could do was recommend an expensive cat food that has more salt, which should make her drink more water.
I have 1 food bowl for the cats, so that would mean everybody is on that diet or I have to segregate this cat for awhile (which is a big pain in ass).
chaucer
imho, they are going after the low hanging fruit first and then they will turn their attention to us in the military. if you read military times publications you will know that warning shots have already been fired.