First They Came for the Surveyor’s Symbols

And here we go:

Representative Bob Brady of Pennsylvania told The Caucus he plans to introduce a bill that would ban symbols like that now-infamous campaign crosshair map.

“You can’t threaten the president with a bullseye or a crosshair,” Mr. Brady, a Democrat, said, and his measure would make it a crime to do so to a member of Congress or federal employee, as well.

Asked if he believed the map incited the gunman in Tucson, he replied, “I don’t know what’s in that nut’s head. I would rather be safe than sorry.”

He continued, “This is not a wakeup call. This is a major alarm going off. We need to be more civil with each other. We need to tone down this rhetoric.”

One of the strangest things to me is that we KNOW that the biggest threat to individual liberty in the United States is congressional over-reaction to traumatic events (and I’m not saying this bill is a hysterical over-reaction- it seems a little silly and pointless and I doubt will be constitutional). Sure, there are people who want to do all sorts of crazy things all the time, but only in the aftermath of an Oklahoma City or a 9/11 is there the political muscle to have these things passed. And so it is with this.

But if you know that is the problem, wouldn’t you say to yourself, “Gee- maybe we shouldn’t spend a couple years telling people it is their God given right to pack heat at political events. Maybe we shouldn’t shout down everyone who says that some of the violent rhetoric is over the top. Maybe a ban on magazines that allow a handgun to turn into a weapon of mass murder really isn’t that big of a deal. Maybe just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should encourage or excuse it. Maybe when someone says we shouldn’t be stoking the crazies, instead of posting Monty Python videos and making light, I should realize this is going to possibly go bad.”

And even though I don’t blame our glibertarian overlords at Reason and elsewhere, I do wonder why they tolerate it when they know what the outcome will be when something like this happens. The first thing Jesse Walker did was chime in with the “both sides do it” nonsense, linking to, of all things, The American Mind. And I don’t blame bloggers or angry people who show up at rallies. How many people really read Reason magazine? Not enough for it to turn a profit, we know that, and I doubt the gunman did- that’s a statistical certainty. How many read Red State? And I honestly do not care if the shooter was to the left of Ralph Nader or to the right of Rush Limbaugh, and the jury is still out. For all I know, he voted for Obama and Giffords. There is an angry, scary undercurrent out there, and that is being stoked by our political leadership and by unscrupulous hucksters in media. They have massive followings, and there are lunatics out there. I honestly don’t understand why people concerned with individual liberty and gun ownership rights wouldn’t, instead of piece after piece telling us about the myth of right-wing violence (almost always comically appearing after an outbreak of national violence), would just say “Hey- no matter what happens, no good can come from this.”

But even if I, from on high, absolve everyone of this stuff, I think our leadership needs to get their shit together. The folks calling abortion doctors baby-killers and the legislatures asking for armed resistance to HCR and lying about death panels and decapitated farmers in the desert and so on. Glenn Beck claiming Obama will kill 100% of the population. It’s just irresponsible. There are lunatics out there- haven’t you people ever driven on a freeway anywhere in the United States? Or been to a Greyhound station?

Regardless of the motivations, though, this was a political assassination attempt that left a number of people dead. And you can expect congress will react and over-react. And I’m rambling.

*** Update ***

And here is exhibit A. All the Sheriff did was point out there are a lot of agitated people out there and a lot of heated rhetoric, and the Foxbots make it a partisan issue. And notice, that is a newscaster debating a cop. Not interviewing. Debating.

*** Update #2 ***

Jesse emailed and he was not serious about the American Mind link, which to be honest, is a relief. I generally like Jesse’s writing, and he and Radley are people who I generally think do good work.






142 replies
  1. 1
    cathyx says:

    Yes. No member of congress can speak publicly in an open forum. They must be behind bulletproof glass and brought in in a motorcade.

  2. 2
    freelancer says:

    But even if I, from on high, absolve everyone of this stuff, I think our leadership needs to get their shit together.

    Are you stranded on your roof again?

  3. 3
    cathyx says:

    @freelancer: No. Marijuana.

  4. 4
    lllphd says:

    the battle lines have long been drawn. but now there’s lives at stake. well, there always were, but sad that it takes lives taken for the crazies to get that fact.

    it’s been leaked (translation, may well be false) that loughner was enamored of the american renaissance movement, which has deep anti-semitic sentiments. giffords’ father is jewish (you know the one, when asked if his daughter had enemies, he responded the whole tea party), and she’s been of late exploring her heritage. in addition to her quite moderate but humane (she voted for the DREAM act) position on immigration.

    and then there’s this juicy link on sully’s page; someone in london took the time to monitor sarah’s frantic attempts to keep negative comments off her facebook page:
    http://obamalondon.blogspot.co.....alins.html
    several comments are also of interest.

    i feel like david byrne – HOW did we get here???
    this is not my beautiful country!

  5. 5
    jk says:

    Megyn Kelly – another disgrace to journalism.

    Fox News Doesn’t Want Viewers To Hear What Giffords Mourner Wants To Say To Sarah Palin
    http://www.newshounds.us/2011/....._palin.php

  6. 6
    Davis X. Machina says:

    i feel like david byrne – HOW did we get here???

    That’s funny: I feel like David Byrne — Same as it ever was.

  7. 7
    WarMunchkin says:

    Decapitated farmers in the desert? Is that a new FOX meme I missed?

  8. 8
    Alex S. says:

    Such things shouldn’t be settled by law, but by standards of civil discourse.

  9. 9
    sven says:

    this just in…

    David Gergen says:

    “No Time for Finger Pointing”

  10. 10
    eemom says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    You may say to yourself, “My GOD. What have I done??”

  11. 11
    Comrade Luke says:

    The big part of the problem is that our “leadership” are a bunch of slightly-less-maniacal lunatics. And I mean that.

    Am I saying that they’re going to pack heat and shoot someone? Of course not. But they’re amongst the least rational people I’ve ever witnessed.

    Leaders are level-headed in the face of crisis. Our politicians panic. Unfortunately, our “leaders” aren’t real leaders because they’re competent; they’ve been installed by the rich and powerful to line their pockets. That’s a very different animal, and they’re so stupid and incompetent that when really bad things happen they aren’t equipped to deal with it in a rational manner.

    I mean, really. John Kyl? This guy is in Congress? And fucking Darth Cheney’s reaction during 9/11 tells you all you need to know about his “leadership”.

    We need real leaders. Question is: how in the world will we ever get them?

  12. 12
    lllphd says:

    @Alex S.:
    yeah, but when standards of civil discourse break down, you have to lay down the law.

    sadly, there are just so many folks out there who don’t know what civil discourse even means, much less what the standards are. hence the laws; impose consequences on the perpetrators in order to guard against consequences for victims.

  13. 13
    jk says:

    @lllphd:

    Welcome to Wasillaland, formerly known as the United States of America.

  14. 14
    Shadow's Mom says:

    I just left the following brief message through the Pima County Sheriff’s Department Website contact form:

    I want to thank Sheriff Dupnik for his calm and rational calling out of vitriolic political rhetoric. I agree with his assessment, and I support his statements during recent interviews. I don’t know what type of communications he is receiving on this topic, but I wanted at least one of them to be from someone who welcomed a voice of reason stating clearly that with free speech comes both consequences and responsibilities. Thanks to the Pima Count Sheriff’s Department for speaking out at this terrible time for your community.

    It’s not much, but the sheriff and his community should know that some among support this.

  15. 15
    Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel) says:

    We’re on a road to nowhere?

  16. 16
    Comrade Luke says:

    @sven:

    this just in…

    Comrade Luke says:

    “Fuck David Gergen”

  17. 17
    sven says:

    @Comrade Luke: I think you just made David Brooks cry.

  18. 18
    freelancer says:

    If they outlaw surveyor’s symbols, then only outlaws will have surveyor’s symbols.

    I can’t help it, I minored in tautology.

  19. 19
    Yutsano says:

    @freelancer: You should have gone for Klingon. It’s more useful, at least in the greater LA area.

  20. 20
    Mark S. says:

    @lllphd:

    Holy shit, Sarah’s minions deleted everything remotely critical of her within minutes (which I don’t have a problem with), but they leave up some shitstain’s comment who attacked the nine-year-old girl who was killed (by comparing her to Hitler, if you can believe it)?

    Knowing Sarah and her acolytes, I can’t say I’m too surprised.

  21. 21
    Hawes says:

    You are rambling.

    Is your point that nothing can be done or whatever is done will be an over the top overreaction?

    All I know is that there likely isn’t a legislative fix for this.

    As far as threatening people, that IS a crime already. So why not just call people on that?

  22. 22
    jk says:

    @sven:

    Wow, the Mighty Gergenator has spoken.
    CNN needs to change its call letters to FENC for False Equivalency News Channel.

  23. 23
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @eemom: (I knew I could count on you to chime in…. ;-)

  24. 24
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @freelancer: I double- majored in tautology — it’s the only way to go.

  25. 25
    Elizabelle says:

    Sully taking a piece out of Howard Kurtz.

    Kurtz: I hate to say this, but the blame game is already under way.

    It began within hours of Saturday’s horrifying shooting … One of the first to be dragged into this sickening ritual of guilt by association: Sarah Palin…

    Here we go again in Arizona, as people with political agendas unleash their attacks even before the victims of this senseless shooting have been buried. I find it depressing beyond belief.

    This isn’t about a nearly year-old Sarah Palin map; it’s about a lone nutjob who doesn’t value human life. It would be nice if we briefly put aside partisan differences and came together with sympathy and support for Gabby Giffords and the other victims, rather than opening rhetorical fire ourselves.

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlan.....wrong.html

    Memo to our finest media: Please do not try to sell us stories of false equivalence and hoocoodaknowed.

    Because we were paying as much or more attention as you did.

    Apparently our senior Republican senators are saying — to reporters, anonymously — the vitriolic rhetoric has gone too far.

    Please hear that, because, dear MSM, your credibility is on the line here.

    You may not understand what unnerved us about this tragedy, but we do.

  26. 26
    Cat Lady says:

    Until everyone stops pretending Fox is a news station, nothing will change. That’s where all this vitriol, propagandizing and overheated partisan rhetoric started, and it will continue until they’re treated like the communications arm of the GOP Tea Party that they actually are. Not sure how, but that’s the root and branch of the problem.

  27. 27
    Svensker says:

    @WarMunchkin:

    No. Gov. Brewer insisted this had been reported, but was eventually forced to admit she’d made it up.

  28. 28
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    I think it’s pretty clear that the sheriff didn’t point a finger in any specific direction (left or right) when talking about the toxic atmosphere in Arizona. If that’s the case, why is the right going after him for his statement? If they wanted to they could have latched onto it and use his statement to ‘prove’ that the left is responsible for it. It’s because the right knows that they are responsible for fostering the anger and hate that led to this tragedy (and many others). They own this mess, every single bit of it. They egged it on and are now feigning surprise that they are being called out for it. The sheriff didn’t point a finger in any specific direction when placing blame for this because he didn’t have to.

    The right did it for him.

  29. 29
    WarMunchkin says:

    @jk: It’s been my experience that whenever liberals point out something important like the fact that there’s been false equivalencies made and use that argument more than once, conservatives make something up and end up changing the media rules such that the phrase “false equivalency” is banned for all time. When do you suppose that’s going to happen?

  30. 30
    Barb (formerly Gex) says:

    @Davis X. Machina: We seem to be talking about a Psycho Killer as well.

  31. 31
    Triassic Sands says:

    Megyn Kelly: denying reality for Fox News. And now back to the planet Earth.

    Damn, a few minutes of listening to her and feel like my brain is being sucked out of my head.

  32. 32
    freelancer says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    I double- majored in tautology—it’s the only way to go

    I minored in tautology because tautology is the minor that I chose.

  33. 33
    lllphd says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee:
    well, he did single out radio and tv commentators.

    but, we all know who they are, don’t we?

  34. 34
    jk says:

    Other interesting news out of AZ

    Halls of justice begin to crumble in Tom Horne’s Arizona with Ethnic Studies protesters
    http://tucsoncitizen.com/three.....protesters

  35. 35
    Triassic Sands says:

    Question — why do I not have permission to edit a comment I just made? Isn’t the purpose of an editing feature to allow the commenter to fix typos, insert omissions (like the “I” missing after the word “and,” and make other such corrections?

    Added during “editing.” For some reason I can edit this comment, but not the one before it. Buggy, buggy, buggy.

  36. 36
    lllphd says:

    @Mark S.:

    yeah, the comment about the young girl is pretty damning.

    in contrast to your position, i do have a problem with the cleansing that goes on at palin’s facebook; it’s not just this incident, but all the frikkin’ time, evidently. totally predictable, of course, consistent with her pathological inability to take criticism. but the speed of this current effort; pretty remarkable.

  37. 37
    sven says:

    @jk: No Kidding.

    Watching CNN today I realized that their filter has a strange side effect. Because FOX is selling demonization of the left, every event, no matter how small, is turned into the apocalypse.

    On CNN, because everything is presented in the vacuum, even heart-wrenching events seem oddly trivial. Meaning requires context.

  38. 38
    Elizabelle says:

    @sven:

    Really disappointed in David Gergen (link at comment 9).

    He should know better.

    Problem is, CNN and most of cable makes $$$ on vitriol and outrage.

    Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

  39. 39
    Barb (formerly Gex) says:

    @Triassic Sands: There is a limited edit time. How long ago was that post?

  40. 40
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Cat Lady: This stuff antedates Fox.

    Long before Murdoch murdered his last kangaroo with his last boomerang, or whatever, there were investment newsletters, and chain faxes, and flyers under windshield wipers, and office water coolers, and church basements, and employee lounges.

    You can’t make a living telling people things they’re not pre-disposed to believe, not reliably, not routinely.

    Fox reaps where it did not sow, and harvested what it did not plant.

  41. 41
    lllphd says:

    @sven:

    oh, right. a crime has been committed. you are a witness. but, ya know, it’s not the time to point fingers.

    so when the cops show up, you don’t point fingers. you politely stuff your hands in your pockets and shake your head, gosh, it could have been anybody, ya know.

    and you get to count the minutes till the culprit strikes again.

    good grief.

  42. 42
    de stijl says:

    @Parallel 5ths (Jewish Steel):

    Unfortunately, more like:

    We don’t want freedom. We don’t want justice.

  43. 43
    lllphd says:

    @eemom:

    perfect!

    so that finger we’re not pointing goes in our own eyes?

    just perfect.
    thx

  44. 44
    jk says:

    @WarMunchkin:

    I think it may start tomorrow when John King asks Erik Erickson for his response to the shootings on John King USA.

    @Elizabelle:

    I posted that except from Howie “the Clown” Kurtz this morning and it still gives me the same level of indigestion right now. Staring at a test pattern for an hour would be a more productive use of one’s time than listening to or reading Kurtz’s drivel.

  45. 45
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    .
    .
    It’s almost as if the subtleties of 11-dimensional chess render it ineffective.
    .
    .

  46. 46
    Cat Lady says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    They pump their sewage into every public space with TVs on, thereby mainlining it, normalizing it, and popularizing it. It’s different by many magnitudes of scale than mimeograph machines.

  47. 47
    lllphd says:

    @Shadow’s Mom:

    wow. planned to call their offices in the morning myself, but your plan is likely better.

    thx, so much.

  48. 48
    Martin says:

    @lllphd: The girl was the granddaughter of Dallas Green. I remember when he was coaching the Mets and the FTFY.

  49. 49
    lllphd says:

    @Barb (formerly Gex):

    yeah; burning down the House.

  50. 50
    jk says:

    @Elizabelle:

    David Gergen USED TO know better. I remember him getting into a heated argument with Laura Ingraham over the tone of Zell Miller’s speech at the Republican Natl Convention in 2004. Gergen felt Miller’s comments were over the top, while Ingraham thought they were fine and that Gergen was being unfair to Miller.

  51. 51
    honus says:

    I’m not buying the “deeply disturbed” “mentally ill” bullshit to let this guy off the hook. His rants are a laundry list of right wing talking points. He can’t trust big government, he wants a gold backed currency, and even the mind control parts echo the rumor that Obama mass-hypnotized the electorate. And while I never shot up a group of people at a shopping mall, Loughner’s rantings aren’t all that different from the stuff I blathered about in my 20s regarding William Blake, Wilhelm Reich, the freemasons etc. In other words, a dangerous cargo-cult ideologue.
    I think the the guy has some issues, but he’s not as seriously mentally ill as he seem at first blush. More like Tim McVeigh or David Koresh than Syd Barrett, Jim Gordon or or Peter Green.

  52. 52
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Sarah Palin is a shitstain.

    As are you, if you can’t pick up on the very obvious connection between Sarah Palin’s routine rhetoric and this tragedy.

  53. 53
    Suffern ACE says:

    @jk: I would like to see a copy of one of these letters. That is just strange. Don’t bother to come to court because you’re already guilty.

  54. 54
    Thoroughly Pizzled says:

    The next line of propaganda will be that the Sheriff was a Democrat, so clearly, Democrats cannot be trusted to protect our citizens.

  55. 55
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Cat Lady: I don’t think the difference in degree constitutes a difference in nature in this case. I lived through busing in Boston, for example, but in a pre-Fox age, and that was every bit as ugly. My mother maintains the same thing about McCarthy — she was blacklisted, by the way — and about Bircherism.

  56. 56
    Alex S. says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    You should apologize, you misunderstood her (Elizabelle).

  57. 57
    jk says:

    @sven:

    The most offensive segment I’ve seen on CNN recently was Wolf Blitzer’s interview a few weeks ago with a computer security expert when Blitzer repeatedly sought assurances from his guest that the federal government was doing everything in its power to carry out a denial of service attack against Wikileaks.

  58. 58
    Mnemosyne says:

    I really wish that conservatives would reach adulthood and realize that just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do it. It’s like dealing with a group of 12-year-olds who keep shouting, “You’re not the boss of me!”

  59. 59
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Alex S.:

    I’ve updated my comment.

    You’re right, I was out of line.

    Elizabelle, please accept my apology.

    The fact remains, however, that Sarah Palin is for all practical purposes unapologetic for her very obvious role in the atmosphere of violent rhetoric that surrounds this event.

    And Gergen can fuck off and die. He, like every other Village Idiot, is part of the problem. Not part of the solution.

  60. 60
    jk says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I’m thankful that I don’t live in Arizona, but I extend my sympathies to those people who are stuck with Jan Brewer as their governor and TweedleDumb (Kyl) and TweedleDumber (McCain) as their senators.

  61. 61
    lllphd says:

    @honus:

    mmm, hold on there, pal. there are numerous disclosures out there from fellow classmates about loughner’s erratic and disruptive behavior, the fact that his school refused to allow him back after suspension unless he had a psych eval, and there was evidently a death threat some time back that the sheriff has been advised not to discuss as yet.

    and not to impugn your adolescent rants, but i read what he wrote and – as a psychologist myself – i can tell you, it was unhinged.

    not to mention the fact, already noted here but should go without saying, anyone who stalks someone for assassination and willfully takes out numerous others, innocent others (not to say giffords was not innocent), willful enough to fight to put in a second magazine of ammo?

    sorry, but that is just plain certifiable. i will be shocked, professionally shocked, if he is found sane. (and do remember, being sane and being fit to stand trial are not necessarily the same thing.)

  62. 62
    BGinCHI says:

    Someone like Gergen trying to calm things down by telling everyone, equally, “not to point fingers,” is the worst kind of condescension.

    How about some analysis David? How about asking for some people who have been inciting this kind of violence and hatred to own up to it?

    Gergen is a company man, but he ain’t stupid. When are people like him going to show even a little bit of courage?

  63. 63
    Alex S. says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Elizabelle agrees with you, see comment #38. The first half of the comment you quoted was a Howard Lurtz quote. Elizabelle’s opinion is completely different. And well, since we’re talking about extreme rhetorics…

  64. 64
    jk says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    “Sarah Palin is for all practical purposes unapologetic”

    I can’t imagine that Sarah Palin has ever spent a nanosecond feeling apologetic or remorseful for anything she has said or done during her lifetime. She’s an unrepentant demagogue who has no shame or conscience.

  65. 65
    Xecky Gilchrist says:

    he plans to introduce a bill that would ban symbols like that now-infamous campaign crosshair map.

    How about instead of that, have one of those motions to humiliate Republicans like the hippie-punching censure of MoveOn? Just have the legislature condemn violent political speech and give a laundry list of examples from Palin, Beck, etc.

  66. 66
    Svensker says:

    @Thoroughly Pizzled:

    The next line of propaganda will be that the Sheriff was a Democrat, so clearly, Democrats cannot be trusted to protect our citizens.

    You’ve been listening to my cousin on FB?

  67. 67
    Comrade Luke says:

    @jk:

    Why should she feel apologetic? Everything she’s done has been rewarded, all the way up the chain.

    It’s no different than blaming professional athletes for their behavior, when they’ve been coddled their entire lives.

    It’s just a different kind of coddling.

  68. 68
    jk says:

    @BGinCHI:

    “When are people like David Gergen going to show even a little bit of courage?” Try never.

    Tomorrow, it will be John Avlon’s turn at pushing the false equivalency narrative on CNN.

    Don’t forget that Gergen and Avlon are part of the “Best Political Team on Television” according to Wolf Blitzer.

  69. 69
    AxelFoley says:

    @Alex S.:

    Such things shouldn’t be settled by law, but by standards of civil discourse.

    I think we’re past that now. The left HAS been civil. It’s the other side that hasn’t.

  70. 70
    BGinCHI says:

    @jk: Damn. Even rhetorical questions have right answers.

    Someone make a list of old white pundits/politicians who try to sweep every teachable moment under the rug.

  71. 71
    jk says:

    @Comrade Luke:

    Ok, I see your point. Maybe, the worst culprits are actually David Gregory, Chuck Todd, Wolf Blitzer, John King, and Anderson Cooper who portray themselves as neutral, honest brokers but have never lifted a finger to try and hold Palin accountable for all of the bullshit she has pulled since the 2008 campaign.

  72. 72
    Mouse Tolliver says:

    @jk:

    CNN needs to change its call letters to FENC for False Equivalency News Channel.

    Dana Bash is helping the Tea Party reframe the issue. Earlier tonight I heard her refer to Giffords as a conservative. Not a centerist or moderate, but a conservative — a gun-loving conservative. And this afternoon Wolf implied the shooter was a liberal because he read Hitler and Karl Marx.

  73. 73
    lllphd says:

    @Hawes:

    well, one beginning to a legislative fix would be to clean up the gun laws.

    i’m fascinated with the fact that no one reminds the public – but especially the rabid gun owners – that there was a time when the gun laws were exactly the way they would want them. it was called the wild west. took years to civilize the place, and the major tool was restriction not so much on gun ownership (didn’t have much more than the gatling then), but gun possession. none in church, bars, public settings. made all the difference. why does no one make mention of this little tidbit?

    or the fact that the NRA is the national RIFLE association, NOT the national weapons association.

    beyond that, i don’t know why we couldn’t begin to frame some legal parameters of civil discourse; we do, after all, have legal parameters that define acceptable v. libelous speech.

    and then there’s the fascinating story of one julius streicher, the only non-official, non-military nazi to be hanged at nuremberg. his crime? he was the editor and publisher of der sturmer, the rag that has been reincarnated as fox noise. the panel of judges stated that, without his incendiary rhetoric, the public would have never allowed the nazi atrocities to happen.

    (working on the screenplay; any connections out there?)

  74. 74
    Shadow's Mom says:

    @lllphd: I went to their contact page looking for a phone number to call them. Found the Webform instead. If anyone else is interested, contact page is here. Scroll to bottom for contact form.

    @Thoroughly Pizzled:
    This is already being promoted in the Twitterverse and elsewhere. Search Sheriff Dupnik in Twitter for mixed bag of support/condemnation.

  75. 75
    lllphd says:

    @jk:

    wait a sec; when have ANY of these guys been allowed to interview palin??

    of course, they don’t often call her out, in person or not.

  76. 76
    BGinCHI says:

    @lllphd: Sounds really fascinating. Good luck with your project.

    We need some cautionary tales now more than ever.

  77. 77
    jk says:

    @BGinCHI:

    One day, before the Sun burns out, I’d like to see a majority of Republicans come to the realization that Sarah Palin is the Empress with No Clothes (except for the 150K she blew on a wardrobe during the 2008 camapign).

  78. 78
    AxelFoley says:

    @Uncle Clarence Thomas:

    It’s almost as if the subtleties of 11-dimensional chess render it ineffective.

    Yeah, fuck you, pal.

  79. 79
    pragmatism says:

    tbogg twattered: “Johnny Cash surveyed a man in Reno just to watch him die”.

  80. 80
    gnomedad says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    I double- majored in tautology—it’s the only way to go.

    Me, I double-majored in redundancy.

  81. 81
    freelancer says:

    @gnomedad:

    And Boom! goes the dynamite.

  82. 82
    jk says:

    @Mouse Tolliver:

    I’m beginning to regard CNN as Fox News minus the venom and bile.

    @lllphd:

    Sarah Palin has a great gig. She hurls vile, extremist rhetoric at Obama and the Democrats from the safety of her Twitter and Facebook accts and softball Fox News interviews. If any of these guys were REAL JOURNALISTS instead of just pretending to be journalists on tv, they’d make it their damn business to fact check Palin’s bullshit accusations even if she refused to grant interviews to them. Actually, Palin did give CNN a handful of interviews shortly AFTER the 2008 prez election.

  83. 83
    MsSkwEsq says:

    @Xecky Gilchrist: I really like your suggestion. I agree there’s no way to legislate civility, but there is that little legal therory on free speech about ‘you can’t yell fire in a crowded theater’ – meaning there are limits to free speech, and I think saying things like ‘reload’ and ‘if ballots don’t work then bullets will’ and ‘2nd Amendment solutions’ crosses that line.

  84. 84
    gnomedad says:

    @gnomedad:
    Me, I double-majored in redundancy.

  85. 85
    BGinCHI says:

    @pragmatism: “Surveyed to the heart, and you’re to blame, honey you give love a bad name.”

    Bon Jovi translated into Palinese.

  86. 86
    pragmatism says:

    @gnomedad:
    well done, sir.

  87. 87
    handy says:

    @pragmatism:

    Sorry atheists in the room, but God bless TBogg.

  88. 88
    pragmatism says:

    @handy:
    FSM reached out with his noodly appendage and blessed tbogg with teh snark. and it was good. ramen.

  89. 89
    Mike Kay says:

    CNN just had hate radio’s Neil Boortz on, asking him if he will stop using inflammatory language, and as expected, he said both sides do it, adding that the Dems are using the mass murder to stop free speech.

  90. 90
    gnomedad says:

    @Xecky Gilchrist:

    How about instead of that, have one of those motions to humiliate Republicans like the hippie-punching censure of MoveOn? Just have the legislature condemn violent political speech and give a laundry list of examples from Palin, Beck, etc.

    That’s an excellent idea, and I hope someone does it. I’m betting it would fail; after all, putting crosshairs on your political opponents is nowhere near as serious as calling a general names.

  91. 91
    DPirate says:

    I agree with the sentiment. People have to be responsible in dealing with the crazy rhetoric: meaning social pressure against the fool and ass who uses that stuff (Palin, Beck, etc).

    You italicized paragraph, however, reads like an about-face. First you say the law is a threat to liberty, then you suggest enacting laws that erode civil liberties (banning magazine). Yeah, all in the name of protection, just like all tyranny purports to be.

    Some people are crazy and they want to kill you. Whatever you do about it won’t be enough to stop it, but it will sure fuck over the sane ones. It is not so much the crazy guy that you, as a voice and a person, need to affect; we have a criminal justice system for dealing with murderers. It is the hateful rhetoricians (that a word?) who encourage the insane who we, as people, need to hold accountable.

  92. 92
    BMcC724 says:

    @Shadow’s Mom: @Shadow’s Mom:

    Thank you for the link Shadow’s Mom. I have gone to the Pima Co. Sheriff’s site and also sent a note of respect & support for the Sheriff’s heartfelt response as a citizen. It was a bright spot in an otherwise agonizing day of TV details & I imagine he probably got some sh*t for it. Crooks & Liars has posted a ‘thought’ about the possible dawning of new era of nonviolent protest called, “Welcome The Hate” that is a worthwhile read. I’d rather just do my job & take care of my family of humans and cats, but then I read that…*sigh*. We shall overcome? Yes.We.Can.I’m.Pretty.Sure.

  93. 93
    handy says:

    @Mike Kay:

    How do these people sleep at night? A nine-year old girl is dead and all he cares about is his precious “rights?” Which, by the way, no one is denying him. But these are the same assclowns who get in a tizzy if somebody shows a boob on TV.

  94. 94

    And here is exhibit A. All the Sheriff did was point out there are a lot of agitated people out there and a lot of heated rhetoric, and the Foxbots make it a partisan issue. And notice, that is a newscaster debating a cop. Not interviewing. Debating.

    Think of it as a tacit admission of guilt on Megyn Kelly’s part, John.

    Sheriff Dupnik has yet to let the words “Republican”, “conservative”, “Tea Party”, or “right-winger” cross his lips when he condemns the poisoned political atmosphere of Arizona. Yet the Cons immediately freak out as if he had.

    “I didn’t put the bullet in the furnace! And stop talking about my mother!”

  95. 95
    Svensker says:

    My son’s Canadian roommates didn’t believe the stuff he told them about FOX, so he recorded some when he was back in NJ recently and played it for them. They were stunned — they thought it was a joke and were horrified when they realized it was not fake. Unfortunately, Canada is getting it’s own right wing news channel soon.

  96. 96
    gnomedad says:

    @pragmatism:
    Hahaha, excellent!
    Don’t Retreat, Remeasure! also, too.

  97. 97
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @DPirate:
    First you say the law is a threat to liberty, then you suggest enacting laws that erode civil liberties (banning magazine).

    Banning large gun clips is not a threat to civil liberties. It does force them to reload more often, which, as you notice in the story about the shooting, was when people were able to stop the shooter.

    Is anyone in Bob Brady’s district? If so, let him know that not only is his bill unconstitutional, but it won’t really mean anything. If he wants to do something, submit a bill restricting the size of magazines.

  98. 98
    suzanne says:

    @jk:

    I’m thankful that I don’t live in Arizona, but I extend my sympathies to those people who are stuck with Jan Brewer as their governor and TweedleDumb (Kyl) and TweedleDumber (McCain) as their senators.

    Thank you. It fucking sucks teh ballz. I really cannot decide which of them I hate the most.

    Fuck this noise. Here’s a picture of my adorable baby

    and another of my kittehs snuggling.

    My mom and I are going to go block the Westboro assholes who are planning on protesting at the funerals of the people murdered in Tucson. God, they make me ill.

  99. 99
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Totally got my block quotes backwards. Lovely.

  100. 100
    PIGL says:

    @Davis X. Machina: the difference in magnitude post Murdoch and others is so huge as to constitute a difference in kind. They are not saying anything different than was said in those steam-era media you mention….but they are saying it 24-7 to every potential susceptible ear in the English-speaking world. In so doing, the have managed to disable or neutre most contrary sources of information.

  101. 101
    sven says:

    @suzanne: Whenever I think Westboro Baptist just can’t get any lower, they get out a shovel and start digging.

  102. 102
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @PIGL: Sorry, don’t buy it. If it were an order of magnitude worse, we’d see effects an order of magnitude worse. I lived through the Sixties — this is not an order of magnitude worse. It ain’t much better, but it’s not worse.

    The belief that we live in uniquely horrible times is attractive — it makes our short lives different from those lived before ours, and will be lived after ours, and so makes them special. For most Americans, most of the time, thank God, that’s an affectation.

  103. 103
    xyzxyzxyz says:

    I’ve been trying to be calm, but I’m still mad at how this is being played out in the “liberal” MSM. Just a few examples:

    1. Debbie W-S on Meet the Press (better known as “Bored to death by the Silver Fox (SF)”) makes a point about how “Rambo” West of Fla wanted a chief of staff who suggested that people would revert to bullets over ballots if they didn’t get their way. The SF conveniently had to break for a commercial, and never followed up on this. Ol’ SF hasn’t gone 5 minutes without discussing Palin, but she sure was fucking absent from his discussion today.

    2. Politico runs a discussion regarding if the connection of the shootings to political rhetoric is legit….and they have fucking Grover N. up there saying that one of the shooters favorite books was the Communist Manifesto, so clearly he’s a leftist. How the fuck do you let someone pick and choose their facts, then blast the left for picking and choosing their facts?

    3. Palin pulls her cross hairs announcement, and her minions post on Facebook how this is an attack on an innocent woman, and how the shooter is a leftist, dope smoking jerk anyhow. One fucker goes so far as to say, “Show me where the right has instigated violence, and I’ll join the left.” Really? “Don’t retreat, reload” ring a fucking bell?

    4. On the CBS evening news they had a “commentator” saying that violent rhetoric has always been a part of political discourse. As an example he mentioned people in the ’60s wearing “revolutionary” clothing and making in-kind statements. Would those be the same kids in ’68 getting the shit kicked out of them in Chicago? Yea, incredible threat they were.

    Sorry for the language, but this has been a rough couple of days. I’m sick of false equivalence.

  104. 104
    Elizabelle says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    No harm, no foul.

    I did a terrible job blocking that Kurtz quote out.

    Howard Kurtz is a dreadful journalist and a veritable ass.

    I think Kurtz and some others have appended themselves to conservatives like crazed remoras, and they can no longer see the shark for what it is.

    Gawd. I am trying so hard to be civil. “Ass” just needs another syllable or two.

    Shorter Elizabelle: Villago: you have nothing to apologize for, but Howard Kurtz does.

  105. 105
    jk says:

    @Elizabelle:

    If Howard Kurtz is a dreadful journalist and a veritable ass, what is Glenn Reynolds for writing this?

    Glenn Reynolds: “There’s a climate of hate out there, all right, but it doesn’t derive from the innocuous use of political clichés. And former Gov. Palin and the tea party movement are more the targets than the source… Those who try to connect Sarah Palin and other political figures with whom they disagree to the shootings in Arizona use attacks on “rhetoric” and a “climate of hate” to obscure their own dishonesty in trying to imply responsibility where none exists.”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....96964.html

  106. 106
    TooManyJens says:

    @jk:

    If Howard Kurtz is a dreadful journalist and a veritable ass, what is Glenn Reynolds for writing this?

    A hack, same as he ever was.

  107. 107
    Mouse Tolliver says:

    Keith Olbermann, an MSNBC employee, donates money to Gabby Giffords. Kurtz spends a week trashing Olbermann on his blog.

    Sarah Palin, a Fox News employee, puts a sniper scope on Gabby Giffords and tells her followers (who have been known to bring guns to political rallies) that they should “reload.” Kurtz jumps to her defense and lashes out people for criticizing her irresponsible rhetoric.

  108. 108
    handy says:

    @Mouse Tolliver:

    Umm, Howie knows who butters his bread?

  109. 109
    eemom says:

    @lllphd:

    actually that had 0 political content. I just really like that line.

  110. 110
    Dee Loralei says:

    @suzanne: Good for you Suzanne and for your Mom. I’ve spent the last week in mourning for a murdered friend. Had someone protested her funeral, I would have been out there too.

    All of those who were murdered at the Gifford’s event deserve someone there saying their deaths were not earned or deserved. Gabbie Gifford’s didn’t deserve it and neither did any of the people who were there excersizing their First Amendment Rights, the right to be heard and the redress of grievances from their Government.

    And FUCK Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, this is what they want! They not only want us to fear our Government, but they want us to fear our rites of Citizenship. (Remember they hate many people who excersize their franchise too, not just their voices….) And their greatest hope is that we will give up on the entire process. Not only that we will quit voting or caring, but that we will quit voting and paying attention. They get their strength from the stupid, angry and uninformed. They need for good people to decide to do nothing, or that their vote doesn’t matter.

    So, we need to make people, even those we disagree with, stay informed and active in their duties as citizens. And we need to stay always attuned and aware. And we need to stand up to any ugly or vitriolic things we here anywhere in the public sphere.

  111. 111
    El Cid says:

    I ask for you liberal politicizers to please stop associating my hanging up of swastika posters around immigrant neighborhoods with some sort of intent to threaten or intimidate, as clearly I was just doing so to honor their communities by presenting this prominent Native American and Indus Valley symbol. Any other interpretation is clearly ridiculous, and an attempt to silence my free speech.

  112. 112
    harlana says:

    Believe it or not, I thought the Pat Tillman hearings were going to be explosive and wake people up. (I know that isn’t directly relevant to the current situation, my only point being that I had hopes people would wake up and start verifying their “information”) I’ve had several moments like that since. And still, nothing changes. I’d like to think this is a watershed moment, but I have no expectations.

  113. 113
    The Raven says:

    I think our leadership needs to get their shit together.

    They’re too busy selling our shit to the banksters.

    John, I agree. How do we help them get their shit together, and how do stop them from selling our shit?

  114. 114
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Mike Kay:

    Neil Boortz, I mean Rush’s Wannabee Mini Me, is a disgusting scumbag whose listeners have a collective IQ of 4. I saw that interview and it was disgusting how he was blaming Obama for the poisonous political atmosphere we have. Republicans will never acknowledge their culpability in any deaths and injuries they incite their listeners into doing. They never admit wrong and never will because to do so would be admitting that they aren’t perfect and make mistakes like other humans. They view doing something like that as some form of surrender.

    You can’t negotiate with terrorists and these assholes like him are just that, they inspire hate and anger because that’s all they know. Assholes like Rush, Hannity, BillO, the Savage Weiner and Boor(tz) are nothing but hatemongers who spoon feed their hateful bullshit to crazy people and fellow hatemongers.

    I would say that they have no humanity left in them but unfortunately for us, they are human.

  115. 115
    lllphd says:

    @eemom:
    yeah, but it fit the flow quite nicely!

  116. 116
    harlana says:

    Well let me toss this out there. And it’s just not my anecdotal reference, Sheriff Dupnik alluded to how the seriously mentally ill used to get intervention and usually taken off the the streets for treatment (there used to be funding for that sort of thing). I remember those days. It is the mission of “the right” or “conservatives” these days to make sure these people are left on the streets, to their own devices, and eventually, some of them get a hold of a weapon and kill people.

    So I don’t want to hear a bunch of shit from the right about how any of this is not political. It’s ALL political. This is their doing, both rhetorically and policy-wise.

  117. 117
    lllphd says:

    @Phoenix Woman:
    right, the sheriff never said anything about dems, republicans, tea party, nobody.

    however, megan did make a point to note that the sheriff is a democrat.

    nice. fair. imbalanced.

  118. 118
    PS says:

    @Shadow’s Mom: I hope Sheriff Dupnik’s Department doesn’t get overwhelmed, and does appreciate messages of support. The form is at http://pimasheriff.org/contacts/. I suggest making it clear that no response is needed.

  119. 119
    lllphd says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    hm. i lived through the 60s too (was actually in memphis when king was shot), and i have to disagree. to my mind, it’s far worse now. and here’s why.

    the media. granted, there was a lot of awful stuff going on, especially in the south (memphis, remember?). but the fox propaganda machine is just exceedingly dangerous. exceedingly dangerous. we’re talking goebbels dangerous.

    in the 60s, when the media finally started printing and airing what was going on in the south, the movement finally gained momentum. when they started printing and airing what was going on in nam, that movement finally gained momentum.

    instead, now we have this machinery that relies on thuggery and bullying and intimidation to keep its fold cranked on a false sense of power and entitlement. even those who don’t shovel the shill won’t stand up to them.

    there is no shred of decency left; it’s all been becked and limpboyed.

  120. 120
    jk says:

    @lllphd:

    Megyn Kelly was possibly auditioning to succeed Greta Van Susteren when her contract expires.

  121. 121
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @harlana: “It is the mission of “the right” or “conservatives” these days to make sure these people are left on the streets, to their own devices, and eventually, some of them get a hold of a weapon and kill people.”

    The right had to get those people released. Why? Because they needed the voters/supporters.

    And murderers.

  122. 122
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @PS:

    I did so earlier from a link that Linda Heathergill posted but do keep reminding others to do so (and thank you for doing so!). I’m sure that his office is being inundated by hateful messages and it’s important to let the sheriff know that people out there agree with him. I think his lack of finger-pointing to either side in his statement was a brilliant move on his part, non-partisan and all. I don’t know if it was intentional or not but it was like setting a trap that the right quite happily walked in to. He only remarked about the hateful atmosphere in Arizona and the right immediately figured that he was pointing a finger at them.

    They pointed the finger at themselves. They know  that they are guilty as hell and it shows.

  123. 123
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    Change the “Heathergill” above to “Feathergill”!

    FYWP edit!

  124. 124
    Atomiota says:

    Apropos of nothing (and everything, ie tucson being yet another instantiation of the GOP’s teflon resistance to accountability) I thought i’d contribute wizard.com’s “Winning Tactics against Golems” http://www.wizards.com/default...../20051108a

    excerpt:
    “Golems, as constructs, are innately immune to a number of attacks. They possess immunity to mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects. In addition, they are not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. They ignore effects that provoke a Fortitude save (unless it affects objects; see below) and don’t have to worry about death by massive damage. They possess both darkvision and low-light vision. That’s quite a list! In short, golems don’t get tired, can’t get confused or distracted, and only go down when they are truly, utterly destroyed. But wait, it gets worse . . .”

  125. 125
    Sister Inspired Revolver of Freedom says:

    @Svensker: Not if we can help it. In fact, we’ve kibosh ed it once already, and we’re more than ready to do it again.

  126. 126
    roshan says:

    How come Joe Arpaio AKA the “freedom” sheriff from Maricopa county, AZ, be routinely allowed to be highly political on Fox News, but somehow Pima County-AZ Sheriff Clarence Dupnik has to abstain from “speculation” or “political spin” in the context of the Arizona shootings?

  127. 127
    Svensker says:

    @roshan:

    Here’s how my cousin explains it on FB:

    I guess AZ has two kinds of sheriffs. Responsible ones like Joe Arpaio and political hacks like Dupnik.

  128. 128
    Lorna says:

    So for the last few days I have been reading the posts on how the far right has all of these violent images and rhetoric. I have also read many a blogger say that it is not equal and both sides do not do it. I have read accusation against Beck and asked for facts to back them up and a website that I could go to see the “facts” for myself. All I got was called a couple of names………and not any leads or websites.

    I have read the vitriol against Sarah Palin and how her “target” was just dangerous and irresponsible. While it may not have been the best choice I think way too much has been made of it. People that hate her think that anything she does is horrible.

    So, I want your opinions on these items. Are they as bad as the target symbol on a map or worse?
    http://cache2.asset-cache.net/.....0B0D811297

    pointing a fake gun (you cant tell it is fake) at the head of a Sarah Palin likeness sitting next to a cardboard cutout of her daughter in a museum display: Getty has since yanked the photo………..I don’t know, to me this is a image of violence…….was it promoting violence? Do you think this was from the right? Also on the topic of Sarah how about the stickers of her image with the words “ABORT” on the top………..what is that implying?

    So all of you who are on her ass about a target on a map, if you are drawing a conclusion of violence there what conclusion are you drawing on the above mentioned? BE HONEST!

    The next couple of images from gee, I’m guessing the left really bothers me, disgusting images. Tv commercials that ran on air or the net that have since been yanked. Very disturbing images using children………..promoting violence or horrific images? What does an unstable mind think when they see these images?

    http://www.treehugger.com/gall.....vertis.php this is the ad with the little girl with a noose around her neck standing on a melting ice cap. I don’t know seems pretty violent to me…..was this a right leaning group?

    And my favorite (you’ll denote a hint of sarcasm) the wonderful 10:10 No Pressure ads

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKgtWWCGQZ8

    The most widely seen was the children in the classroom. Any and all of them that were not on board were blown up with their body parts landing on their classmates that were screaming. No violence here……..Good idea??? What does a person on the edge think of this video? Again, was this a right leaning ad?

    By the way, I think the apology is great, you get their sorry excuse while watching the ad. WOW!

    These are just a few….I have many more. I have seen the links to a tea party gathering where bloggers have posted the signs being held up as proof that the tea party is inciting violence. I need to as these individuals what proof do you have that the person holding the sign is a tea party member? Do they carry a card membership? I have just as many websites of gatherings where people are holding up horrific signs about President Bush……..what does it prove? To me it proves that person alone is inciting violence and has very poor judgement.

    So really to all of you out there do you really think that both sides don’t do it? REALLY? If so, stick your head back in the sand because you can’t be rationalized with, you are too partisan.

    And last to me the Sheriff was very irresponsible with his opinion comments……..he is actually doing what he is asking everyone else to stop. Wait, the saying do as I say, not as I do comes to mind………..

  129. 129
    AxelFoley says:

    @handy:

    How do these people sleep at night? A nine-year old girl is dead and all he cares about is his precious “rights?” Which, by the way, no one is denying him. But these are the same assclowns who get in a tizzy if somebody shows a boob on TV.

    Heh, I was looking at an interview this morning on CNN with one of the men who tackled the shooter. He was asked what did Loughner say when he was tackled, and the gentleman (who is a doctor, but his name escapes me now) said that Loughner said, “You’re hurting my arm.”

    “You’re hurting my arm.”

    Fuck you, you little pussy-ass motherfucker. You kill and wound others, and you cry out because someone hurt your arm as they were stopping you from reloading and trying to kill more.

    Fuck. You.

  130. 130
    roshan says:

    @Lorna: You’re welcome.

  131. 131
    dogwood says:

    @Lorna: You speak of the “vitriol against Sarah Palin” as if that is the outrage of the day. This is offensive. Many jumped on her map as an example of what may have caused the killer to act. Her response and the response of her supporters should have been to stay out of it. It’s not about her. Unfortunately, she has no self-control, no moderating impulses. A public figure cannot respond to every cheap shot. And a serious public figure refrains from taking cheap shots. She doesn’t get this.

  132. 132
    Lorna says:

    @dogwood: Dogwood, It is not the outrage of the day, it was a political stunt . I am just responding to the numerous posts laying blame at her feet! That is what is offensive. Why do you suppose her “target” on a map was pointed to as possibly what may have caused the killer to act? Was this based on any facts? Then why insert an opinion? Why didn’t we hear about the “targets” used by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and their use of red and white bullseyes last year to target Republican incumbents? Not exactly the same, but similar! How do you know that these or any of the links I provided didn’t have some impact on him? That was my point, at this point we don’t know what he was thinking or what, if anything influenced him, so why are the OPINIONS on what COULD have had an impact on him being put in police briefings and on the news? Palin didn’t shoot these people, Jared Loughner did. From what I hear there were plenty of signs that he was troubled. So now are we going to start blaming his parents, neighbors, friends, the college that new something was wrong, the police that dismissed is disruptive behavior? Who do we blame next?

    I can’t say that any of these ads or politicians always have or are in the best judgement, but we have to stop making this political and pull together. Both sides do it, both sides are to blame. I am tired of the vitriol that comes out of the mouths of our politicians and political groups.

    People have lost their lives, we have got to pull together as one nation, this is unacceptable. We need to both give and in return get respect. We need to teach our youngsters the value of life, or we are all lost.

  133. 133
    WaterGirl says:

    @El Cid: Nicely done!

  134. 134
    Cris says:

    The trouble with outlawing dangerous speech is it forces the dangerous people to disguise themselves. If the violent lunatics want to fly a flag on their campaign materials saying “I’m a violent lunatic” I’d rather not stop them.

  135. 135
    Ash Can says:

    @Lorna:

    I am tired of the vitriol that comes out of the mouths of our politicians and political groups.

    So is Sherriff Dupnik. Why was it wrong for him to say so (but apparently OK for you to say it yourself)?

    I am just responding to the numerous posts laying blame at her feet! That is what is offensive.

    Sarah Palin is in a position of leadership in the Republican party in particular and on the right wing in general. She and numerous other nationally prominent Republicans/right-wingers use references to violence against the government and against individuals on a routine basis. How many of the examples you gave of left-wing incitement to violence were promulgated by/originated with the national leadership of the Democrats/left wing?

    This is why it’s not, not, not the same. To pretend it’s the same is to be dishonest with yourself and with all of us.

  136. 136

    Comments here indicating that Loughner had a connection with The American Renaissance Movement are confusing two different groups. The DHS reports are referring to this group called merely “American Renaissance”. Their website: http://www.amren.com does seem to be primarily focused on “race” and has been around for some years. The other group “The American Renaissance Movement” (http://theamericanrenaissancemovement.com) is barely a year old, run by a handful of college kids and seems anything but racist. At this point I couldn’t say for sure that the DHS reports haven’t got their facts just as confused. And who can say if that might not be intentional…

    Of course, the more political it gets, the more it will become purposely ideological, and as the college kids movement smacks of progressive thought, they stand to be quite a convenient example for the “right” to hold up as the real “evil influence” that moved this young man to violence. I hope not, but I’m old enough to recognize the noise I’m hearing. It’s an irritating, uncomfortable sound, and to a more or less degree is equally shrill from both sides of our “single-party system”.

  137. 137
    Lorna says:

    @Ash Can: Ash can Well thanks for putting little ole me in such high regard……. lets think for just a minute why is it okay for little ole me to give my opinion on a no nothing blog that maybe 100-200 people may read and not okay for a sheriff who is dealing with a mass shooting, giving a nationwide briefing on the facts of the case not okay? Really? Do I really need to answer that? Are you even serious? Come on.

    As I stated in my earlier post there are just as many if not more Democratic/left wing progressives using references to violence……blah, blah, blah what you said. Gee, not to long ago our President was on the air (Univision) waves calling for Latinos to “punish your enemies” Can you get any more prominent than the President of the United States? If you need a date, time, etc. I can supply that for you. That is not the only violent rhetoric from that source. Is the President considered to be in a position of leadership in the Democratic party?

    So you see Ash, it IS IS IS IS IS IS the same……….well maybe you’re right, I actually think the President saying it is worse. So really who is being dishonest? Go ahead nobody is looking, stick your head back in the sand.

  138. 138

    Curious how the mock-news people and the political morons keep acting so testy about a Sheriff speculating on a case. The Kelly interview sounded to me like every question she asked was meant to solicit a speculation. Isn’t that what an opinion is?

  139. 139
    Cacti says:

    @Lorna:

    Gee Lorna, I couldn’t help but notice you completely ignored the litany of right wing eliminationist rhetoric and actions that roshan provided for you.

    I’m also going to go out on limb and guess that if it was a Latino who shot a Republican Congressman, you’d have no objection to Shurf Arpaio beating a path to the nearest Fox News microphone to talk about how the kenyan in the whitehouse won’t protect us from the Messican menace.

  140. 140
    Lorna says:

    @Cacti: Well, gee now Cacti, how’d ya know?

    Ahhh, not allowed to have an opposing view. Took awhile to post.I did start to reply and then thought no, what for. When I asked for proof and websites I didn’t mean left wing websites with an agenda. You see I started to dig into the coalition and stopped at the top……..Joshua Horowitz. I did not need to read any further, though I did just to get the gist of the article. I think the silliest example of right wing violence is this one:

    March 3, 2009— FOX commentator Glenn Beck interviews NRA celebrity spokesman Chuck Norris. During the interview, Beck states that, “Somebody asked me this morning, they said, ‘you really believe that there’s going to be trouble in the future?’ And I said, ‘if this country starts to spiral out of control and, you know, and Mexico melts down or whatever, if it really starts to spiral out of control, before America allows a country to become a totalitarian country … Americans will, they just, they won’t stand for it. There will be parts of the country that will rise up.’ And they said, ‘where’s that going to come from?’ And I said, ‘Texas, it’s going to come from Texas.’”

    Seriously, where is the violent rhetoric in that statement? Josh Horowitz is a contributor to the huffington post, the most left leaning piece of —-out there besides the Daily kos, come on people when I asked for proof, websites I meant legitimate ones. Don’t waste my time.

    I’m also going to go out on limb and guess that if it was a Latino who shot a Republican Congressman, you’d have no objection to Shurf Arpaio beating a path to the nearest Fox News microphone to talk about how the kenyan in the whitehouse won’t protect us from the Messican menace.

    Reply
    And awwwh shucks, I would have a big problem if Arpio gave his opinion at a police briefing. where he was to lay out the facts of the case. That is the problem with being so partisan…..you can’t even comprehend that concept! So be very careful out on that limb. And do you really think he is Kenyan? Better keep that to yourself!

  141. 141
    roshan says:

    @Lorna: Yup, tis the problem with being so partisan.

    Also, here is the violent rhetoric, since you have your blinders on:
    __

    March 3, 2009— FOX commentator Glenn Beck interviews NRA celebrity spokesman Chuck Norris. During the interview, Beck states that, “Somebody asked me this morning, they said, ‘you really believe that there’s going to be trouble in the future?’ And I said, ‘if this country starts to spiral out of control and, you know, and Mexico melts down or whatever, if it really starts to spiral out of control, before America allows a country to become a totalitarian country … Americans will, they just, they won’t stand for it. There will be parts of the country that will rise up.’ And they said, ‘where’s that going to come from?’ And I said, ‘Texas, it’s going to come from Texas.’”

    We came unarmed (this time). Bonus, enjoy!

  142. 142
    DPirate says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Oops, I thought that “magazine” meant a periodical! As in, instructions to make a handgun into an actual automatic (machine-gun-like). That is the only way in which his sentence makes any real sense, IMO. Next he will want to only allow everyone a single bullet!

    The rhetoric on WMD is really stupid.

    2 bullets?!?
    TERRORIST

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