Some Hope

CNN is reporting that Gabrielle Giffords is out of surgery and her surgeon is optimistic that she will recover. This Rochester police officer was shot in the head, survived and had a remarkable, though not complete, recovery. It can happen.






192 replies
  1. 1
    Tom Levenson says:

    Fingers crossed.

  2. 2
    Radon Chong says:

    But the little girl died. So, so sad.

  3. 3
    jinxtigr says:

    Guard her. It’s not like she got hit by a meteorite or struck by random lightning.

    When we got hit by OUTSIDE terrorists, the first plane was shocking, but the second one was there to send a message.

    We’ve got a lot of people out there who would dearly like to send a message, just like that. This first guy was their lottery ticket that came up ‘exterminate’. They got lots of other lottery tickets floating around with guns.

  4. 4
    jeff says:

    To those who cannot resist scoring political points or deducing grand truths about America sucking or whatever, consider this:

    Organic psychiatric diseases can cause psychosis so severe that people(usually very young men) can act out delusions and murder people.

    I won’t be surprised if there are indeed ideological things going on with this guy–but I think he is likely to be schizophrenic.

  5. 5
    de stijl says:

    I don’t have the courage to read the “Oh, No” post comments. I know that some people cannot help but politicize tragedies like this, but it breaks my heart every time I see it happen.

    I may be wrong and it was only 400+ folks offering their best wishes, but that is just wishful thinking.

  6. 6
    Glen Tomkins says:

    There is a huge range of outcomes to gunshot wounds to the head. Large areas of the brain are not “eloquent”, in the technical sense that they don’t have any clear function that we are aware of from injuries to these areas causing clear functional deficits. That said, even these areas undoubtedly have some less clear, more indirect, function. And, especially if the weapon used was high velocity, there will be diffuse damage throughout the brain, no matter the specific path of the bullet.

    Even the physicians treating her probably have no clear idea at this point of the ultimate extent of disability.

  7. 7
    Seebach says:

    @jeff: Schitzophrenic people do react to information, however. He exists in a context where certain people are painted as evil government conspiracy stooges.

    He doesn’t have to logically understand it to be affected by it.

  8. 8
    West of the Cascades says:

    Jim Brady, White House Press Secretary 1980 to 1989, also survived a gunshot wound to the head.

  9. 9
  10. 10
    askew says:

    Unfortunately there is no hope for the child, the federal judge and the others who were killed today.

    I hope this makes the media take a step back and realize they have been ignoring the violent rhetoric coming from Palin and other Republicans. However, judging from the moronic comments from CNN, they seem to be playing the “both sides do it” nonsense. I dare them to find one major Democratic presidential or vice presidential nominee who has ever used violent rhetoric like Palin does on an almost daily basis.

  11. 11
    El Cid says:

    But it is being reported that a federal marshall has stated that a federal judge was killed.

  12. 12
    Seebach says:

    I’m so glad this thread is going to take a different tack and spend 400+ posts absolving anyone of any responsibility for the violence.

    High Broderism rules.

  13. 13
    change says:

    Good luck desperately jumping through hoops to tie this nut to Sarah Palin or the Tea Party. He’s just a stone cold crazy nut looking at his YouTube page. He’s apolitical.

  14. 14

    Wait’ll you get a load of the shooter’s Youtube channel. I posted one of his videos at my place. I think we can conclude he’s a right winger.

  15. 15

    @jeff:

    I won’t be surprised if there are indeed ideological things going on with this guy—but I think he is likely to be schizophrenic.

    Violent political rhetoric can turn political people towards violence.

    It can also turn crazy, violent people towards politics.

  16. 16
    campionrules says:

    @jurassicpork:

    Really? I mean his youtube videos are bonkers. But nothing right wing. Actually it says one of his favorite books is the communist manifesto….and to kill a mockingbird…YMMV

  17. 17
    JGabriel says:

    CNN is reporting that Gabrielle Giffords is out of surgery and her surgeon is optimistic that she will recover.

    The NY Times is reporting the same thing.

    .

  18. 18
    jinxtigr says:

    @de stijl: Sorry. This is a political blog, and we are in a country where leaders of significant political movements have done things like call for second amendment remedies, put cross-hairs on this Congresswoman’s name, and hold M16 target practice fundraisers in the name of removing her.

    If you care about the next person who’ll be gunned down in the street you’ll find some comfort zone between pure sympathy and the addressing of the factors in our society reflected by this act, which I doubt I have to go over yet one more time just because you want to pretend there are no such factors.

  19. 19

    @change: Apolitical assassins usually don’t pick politicians as targets, by definition.

  20. 20
    lamh32 says:

    Since this guy is just some random crazy, then Sarah Palin can go ahead and put her “lock and load” webpage back up.

    Look, I don’t blame anyone for any crazy person doing random crazy things, but damn, my grandmother used to say if you only speak to the crazy, then don’t be surprised if sometimes the crazy listens and reacts.

    Prayers for Rep Giffords and the other still injured and critical. I really send prayers to the family of the child who died.

  21. 21
    Cat Lady says:

    I’m going to make a grand prediction that no matter what ends up happening to Giffords, and regardless who the shooter is and why he did it, nothing will change. The media is incapable of examining itself, politicians will stay bought and lie about it, the Idiot Palin’s tweets will still be analyzed by “serious” news outlets, the right wing wurlitzer will manufacture some new outrage about Obama, and the whole episode will end up in the memory hole cuz that’s how we roll. America, fuck yeah!

  22. 22
    wengler says:

    I don’t think political assassination as a terror weapon is going to change anybody’s mind, but I certainly do foresee House and Senate members being a lot harder to access now.

    Though losing the best members of any organization is going to have some effect.

  23. 23
    change says:

    @joe from Lowell:

    Yeah, remember that film that was made about Bush being assassinated?

  24. 24
    Barb (formerly Gex) says:

    @jeff: I think the problem is not that there are sick young men out there, but that a Vice-Presidential candidate is advocating HITS, RELOADS, and using cross-hairs. That’s the point. There are unhealthy people all over the world, and people with leadership responsibility should use their words carefully.

    Unfortunately, the right DOES use their words carefully. And apparently they mean what they say.

  25. 25
    Martin says:

    @efgoldman:

    do we have any way of knowing at this early stage that the congresswoman was the primary target?

    Point blank range to the head at an event she was hosting. I don’t think this guy was pissed off at the price of apples at Safeway.

  26. 26
    Nick says:

    NBC refused to preempt football to bring the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES speaking on an assassination attempt on a member of Congress.

    Keep that in mind next time you guys talk about the “bully pulpit” and when the President talks, “they have to listen”

  27. 27

    This particular paranoid schizophrenic was also a gold bug who ranted about the evil federal government.

    People need to be more responsible with violent political rhetoric and imagery. It isn’t wrong to talk about “Second Amendment remedies,” to put forward elaborate conspiracy theories about concentration camps and death panels, and to put crosshairs on your political opponents because of how ordinary people might react. It’s wrong because of how crazy people are going to react.

  28. 28
  29. 29
    Stillwater says:

    @jeff: Well, look, the guy is clearly insane, since he mowed down a dozen unarmed people. His sanity/insanity is not the issue. What people are speculating about is why he chose a Dem Congresswoman as his target.

  30. 30
    Maude says:

    NYT is reporting facts as they get them.
    17 were shot.
    I don’t know what to say. This is so awful and when I read the first headline, all I could do was weep.

  31. 31
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Larry Signor: Hinckley.

  32. 32

    @change:

    Yeah, remember that film that was made about Bush being assassinated?

    Yes, I thought it was in very bad taste. Good thing such ideas and imagery didn’t gain any widespread currency within left-of-center circles, or more crazy people might have picked up on them.

    Which brings us back to Sarah Palin and the Republican candidate in Gifford’s district.

  33. 33
    Barb (formerly Gex) says:

    @change: I’m wondering why you are offering evidence that left just doesn’t have the same crazy killer population as the right.

  34. 34
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Interestingly enough, John Boehner didn’t cry when he spoke today about the tragic events. He must be out of tears.

  35. 35
    Barb (formerly Gex) says:

    efgoldman:
    Her website stated where she would be. Not sure that a federal judge’s whereabouts are that easily ascertained.

  36. 36
    change says:

    Or remember when the left told us for eight years that Bush was illigetimate, that he stole both elections, that he’s a war criminal, a Nazi, a Fascist, that he’s controlled by the Blackwater/Halliburton junta?

  37. 37
    J. says:

    Just watched Obama. Kind of chilling. Bill Clinton would have been in tears one minute, pointing a finger and going ole fire and brimstone the next. Obama, on the other hand, was… Obama. Sigh.

    Also, in case you guys haven’t seen or heard about it, Piers Morgan tweeted this article in HuffPo about a possible Palin connection. (Not saying there’s a hard connection, but still, downright eerie.)

    And yes, very very sad about the little girl (made me want to run and hug my kid — and never let her go) and all the senseless death and harm done.

  38. 38
    J. says:

    @Brick Oven Bill: Maybe if the shooting had occurred outside a tanning parlor…

  39. 39
    stuckinred says:

    Why in the fuck do you people continue to engage this motherfucking asshole?

  40. 40
    mr. whipple says:

    @stuckinred:

    Which one?

  41. 41

    @jeff: But on the other hand, this is why we try to keep public discourse within the bounds of civility and charity. There are those who feel that they can impress someone or gain public approval by doing the things that the rhetoric suggests. The mentally unstable take these things literally and feel they can get the attention or approval they have long been refused.

    We acknowledge the power of good rhetoric to inspire, why not at least recognize the power of venomous rhetoric to cause mayhem?

  42. 42
    lamh32 says:

    @J.:

    Okay, I may be taking you the wrong way, but fuck you, Obama didn’t show enough emotion.

    Plz, what did you want, some fake azz speaker boner drunk tears.

  43. 43
    Cat Lady says:

    @stuckinred:

    What motherfucking asshole? ; )

  44. 44
    Chyron HR says:

    @change:

    Don’t retreat, reload! RELOAD!

    You promised us blood after DADT was repealed. Can’t say you didn’t deliver.

  45. 45
    Stillwater says:

    @Cat Lady: I’m going to make a grand prediction that no matter what ends up happening to Giffords, and regardless who the shooter is and why he did it, nothing will change.

    I disagree. I think because of this event we’re gonna see (albeit slowly) a return to more measured rhetoric and a return to the establishment values of respecting the inherent power and legitimacy of our government. The last thing TPTB want is armed insurrection in the streets.

  46. 46
    stuckinred says:

    @Cat Lady: The obvious one. Damn

  47. 47
    MattF says:

    I’ll just note that the alleged shooter was exactly at the age where people have massive schizophrenic breakdowns. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear reports of ‘he started acting funny recently’ comments from acquaintances.

  48. 48
    someguy says:

    @El Cid:

    But it is being reported that a federal marshall has stated that a federal judge was killed.

    Right wing Bush appointee.

  49. 49
    Jules says:

    I see Sarah has been furiously scrubbing things today.

  50. 50
    Maude says:

    @lamh32:
    Thank you so much. You said it for me.

  51. 51
    suzanne says:

    Change must be crapping his pants right now.

    “Awww, SHIT. We really ARE as crazy as they say. Let’s deflect blame!”

  52. 52
    13th Generation says:

    I used to think “Change” was a spoof, now I realize that he really does crawl out from under some rock to jerk himself off in public whenever the mood strikes him.

    Thank Allah for 2nd amendment remedies, right Change?

    You Fuck.

  53. 53
    BR says:

    @someguy:

    Not sure he was “right wing” – at least given his ruling in favor of undocumented immigrants against vs. a rancher (that got talk radio up in arms against him).

  54. 54
    eemom says:

    @efgoldman:

    “change” is a troll sick little fuck Don’t rise to the bait. whose tiny little dick expands by a few millionths of an inch every time one of us is dumb enough to respond to him.

    repaired.

  55. 55
    fasteddie9318 says:

    @change:

    And remember when that conservative politician got sh–oh, wait, that didn’t happen. Now run along and get back to fucking yourself.

  56. 56
    stuckinred says:

    @efgoldman: STOP TALKING TO HIM!

  57. 57
    Michael D. says:

    @Jules: Yes, she has. She has been deleting almost ALL comments critical of her.

  58. 58

    @change:

    Or remember when the left told us for eight years that Bush was illigetimate, that he stole both elections, that he’s a war criminal, a Nazi, a Fascist, that he’s controlled by the Blackwater/Halliburton junta?

    “The left.” What is that, exactly?

    Funny how easy it is to come up with numerous prominent, specific individuals who use violent political imagery and speech on behalf of Republicans, while those attempting to create an equivalency use vague terms like “the left.”

    And all it takes is a quick glance at the news to see how that difference plays out in terms of a body count. When a crazy, nameless fringe says crazy, fringe things, it doesn’t have much of an effect. When prominent political leaders who get extensive media attention do it, we get police shot down in Pittsburgh, planes flown into federal buildings, and Congressional reps shot.

    By definition, leaders are people who influence followers. Leaders in the Republican Party need to be more like the leaders in the Democratic Party, and denounce the violent rhetoric from the fringe, rather than adopting it as part of their messaging.

  59. 59
    El Cid says:

    @someguy: Okay, but shouldn’t be dead.

  60. 60
    wengler says:

    @change

    And yet astonishingly when Obama was elected threats started spiking. When Clinton was in office one guy literally shot at the White House. That D after your name seems to leave you quite open to this sort of thing.

    When was the last time a Republican’s Congressional office was even vandalized? More often than not, crazy people(both mentally ill and not) look for ideologies that have both like-minded people and verify their beliefs. Rightwing religion and rightwing politics are very popular among this population.

  61. 61

    @stuckinred:

    Why in the fuck do you people continue to engage this motherfucking asshole?

    He provides useful segues for addressing relevant points.

  62. 62
  63. 63
    Cat Lady says:

    @stuckinred:

    I know, stuck. I was making a funny.

  64. 64
    hueyplong says:

    Isn’t there a tv pundit kind of guy who has hawked gold a lot on his show? The name escapes me, but I think he’s on FoxNews.

  65. 65
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    Ignore change, and wait until we have more evidence about the guy. As often as not, the killer in these things has not had an agenda, it’s just a shooting where people were in the wrong place at the same time. As much as I want to scream about the right wing talk coming true, it won’t help is if we start it now, and it turn out to not be the case.

  66. 66
    JGabriel says:

    @change:

    Yeah, remember that film that was made about Bush being assassinated?

    That was a “what if?” situation serving as the basis for a crime procedural by a writer and director of unknown political partisan identification.

    The Sarah Palin and Jesse Kelly “targeting” of Giffords was advocacy.

    There is a difference. But of course you know that. Which means you’re just trolling. Really tasteful thing thing to do in the face of a mass shooting, Change. Stay classy, asshole.

    .

  67. 67
  68. 68
    Alex S. says:

    I’d say the shooter is one of the crazy libertarian people who need easy answers and solutions to understand the world (like all-encompassing conspiracy theories). I bet he believed that his actions were necessary to save the world, to destroy the North American Union or something like that. I don’t think that he was a typical right-winger, but they showed him a target.

  69. 69
    demkat620 says:

    You know, you can never predict how people handle things, but that Brewer presser was a little odd.

    I know GG was the most likely target but, damn, a Fed Judge was killed. Did Brewer even mention him?

  70. 70
    Elisabeth says:

    @change:

    Which part of those is wrong? Fail to see, though, anyone using crosshairs and/or target imagery to their point. Keep trying, if you feel you must.

  71. 71
    El Cid says:

    @BR: Got him death threats too, or at least general calls to ‘kill him’.

  72. 72
    jeff says:

    @lamh32:

    I understand what you and others are saying, and I agree: Palin and especially radio hosts are just taunting fate with their language. It’s really a shitty thing to do.

    Here’s my problem, though: a nordic mass-murderer several years ago credited Nietzsche for giving him the nerve to kill dozens of people. Now, he was a disturbed moron, and Nietzsche was a caring and non-violent man. But it’s still true that Nietzsche unwisely wrote many hyperbolic things that would give the right kind of sociopath a lot of ideas. Similarly, the parent’s of murdered kids in Italy blame an American metal band for putting nihilistic ideas in their kids heads.

    Basically, I am saying that Palin, Nietzsche and these metal bands really should have thought about what an unstable person might do with their words. Being famous means you should be more careful in what you say.

  73. 73
    geg6 says:

    @change:

    And remember all those incendiary packages sent to and assassination attempts of Republicans by lefties?

    Oh, wait. There weren’t any.

  74. 74
    gbear says:

    I find that I am using the ‘scroll’ command quite liberally on this comment thread.

  75. 75
    Alex S. says:

    Listening to the hospital press conference on C-Span. The bullet went through Giffords’ brain.

  76. 76
    El Cid says:

    @Alex S.: It’s usually not a ‘typical right winger’ who goes this far. Neither was Timothy McVeigh, but the militias which full-bore paranoia about ‘martial law’ and black helicopters and New World Order and soshullism and United Nations takeover etc. were the groups from which he got his bullshit.

  77. 77
    Obliterati says:

    I’m really not sure what kind of agenda this guy had, other than crazyfuckingweirdtime. He’s got paranoid schizophrenic written all over him.

    But then there’s reports of the Feds arresting/looking for others in connection with the shooting. So what’s that all about?

  78. 78

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    wait until we have more evidence about the guy

    Sully, in his usual oddly-obsessive fashion, has been committing some acts of journalism in his blogging of this horrible…ah, fuck it. It just plain sucks, and I hate the people, of any stripe, who seek a political point in a kid dying.

  79. 79
    stuckinred says:

    I believe it has been banned. Thanks John.

  80. 80
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    The federal judge is dead, he once made a ruling that allowed a lawsuit to go forward on behalf of immigrants against a rancher.

    He may have been the actual target.

    But we don’t know at this point.

    People are dead. Rep. Giffords is still alive. But people are dead.

  81. 81
    Mike Kay says:

    holy crap. MSNBC said 18 people were shot. 18!

  82. 82
    gil mann says:

    @jeff:

    Basically, I am saying that Palin, Nietzsche and these metal bands really should have thought about what an unstable person might do with their words. Being famous means you should be more careful in what you say.

    I really want to believe this is sarcasm, but the whole “Slave Jim” deal makes it harder than it would’ve been a couple days ago

  83. 83
    Mark S. says:

    My comment disappeared. What I said was:

    I agree with stuckinred. Change is a fuckstain unworthy of reply. Pie him if you can’t ignore him.

  84. 84
    stuckinred says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yea, walking up and shooting the congresswoman in the head was a diversionary tactic.

  85. 85
    Punchy says:

    This never would have happened if Giffords and all her crew and the judge and the 9 year old girl were all packing. Clearly, they would have unholstered and rained a hail of bullets upon this man, injuring no other bystanders and even having time for cake afterwards.

  86. 86
    batgirl says:

    @Obliterati: Either a dead end, misinformation or people using someone who is mentally ill for their own ends. Who knows…

    There is so much we could speculate about. I’m doing it too. Still best, to wait til we get more info.

  87. 87
  88. 88
    wengler says:

    You know a lot of people are tossing around ideas and speculation that the shooter had a serious mental illness. It may or may not be true. I’d just like to point out that most assassins aren’t mentally ill.

    I will also remind people that the use of violence to affect political change is something that most people in this country have endorsed in the last decade. It’s just that there is a major dividing line in people’s minds when it comes to what is acceptable in the US and what happens overseas. It’s something to think about, especially as a child was killed. This made many people very sad and angry. This is how people in other countries feel when it happens to them too.

  89. 89
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @wengler:

    When was the last time a Republican’s Congressional office was even vandalized?

    About 10 months ago, someone apparently took pot shots at Eric Cantor’s office in Richmond, VA.

    Cantor held a press conference about this incident.

    Three months before that, Peter DeFazio’s office in Eugene OR was shot at.

    DeFazio did not hold a press conference.

    Compare and contrast reactions to this sort of thing.

  90. 90
    askew says:

    @J – for fuck sake, you are really bitching about Obama not being emotional enough during this press conference. Give me a fucking break. The last thing we need in this country is more overwrought bullshit. We need calm, steady leaders. Let the emotional basketcases stay on the right.

  91. 91
    tammanycall says:

    A twitter user who says she used to know the shooter:

  92. 92
    13th Generation says:

    @Punchy: Man, that’s what I say: More Guns! The 2nd Amendment Solution!

    13th +4

  93. 93
    angee says:

    Here is Jared Lee Loughner youtube channel.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

    Hopefully after today politicians will realize that using hateful rhetoric to get elected is a dangerous game. This is not a game when you have sick, evil people who will do this after listening to hate speech from a politicians, pundits, and tv/radio hosts.

  94. 94
    drkrick says:

    @efgoldman:

    The NFL played on the weekend following President Kennedy’s assassination,

    Pete Rozelle later said it was the worst mistake he made as commissioner. The Cowboys played in Cleveland that Sunday and said no one at the airport there wanted to touch the crates with “Dallas” stenciled on them.

  95. 95
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @stuckinred:

    The thing is, we don’t know if there WAS a political target here. The shooter hasn’t been waterboarded into confessing his motive yet. He may have been after an imagined girlfriend he knew would be at the rally, for all we know at this point.

    So it’s all speculative at this point. Just sayin’, though…the judge had received threats before over a case that is, in Arizona, flash point material. Doesn’t diminish the obvious potential political motivations against the congresswoman, obviously. But it’s there.

  96. 96
    stuckinred says:

    @askew: The last thing someone who is the target of so many threats should do is to look freaked out by this. They’d eat him alive on Fox.

  97. 97
    licensed to kill time says:

    Thanks for flushing that little ‘change’ turd, John.

  98. 98
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @Mike Kay:

    Yes, that’s usually what 12+6 equals.

    It reminds me of that shooting on the Texas army base last year. Semi-automatic weapons are tragically effective at what they’re built to do…

  99. 99
    RalfW says:

    @Cat Lady has a depressingly high chance of being correct.

    I don’t want to leave this country, but I may just get pushed out by the crazy, too-well armed citizenry.

  100. 100
    tammanycall says:

    Oops, that link was – http://twitter.com/caitieparker

  101. 101

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    About 10 months ago, someone apparently took pot shots at Eric Cantor’s office in Richmond, VA.

    As it turned out, the bullet came from someone firing randomly into the air in a neighborhood a couple miles away.

  102. 102
    13th Generation says:

    Thanks Cole, sometimes “change” is a bad thing..

  103. 103
    Alex S. says:

    @El Cid:

    Yeah, I know it sounds silly, but at least conservatism is an ethos. Most of the time, the Tea Party is just organized rage. You don’t need to lose your humanity to be a right winger. It takes another impulse to finally act and kill another human being.

  104. 104
    TR says:

    Gabby Giffords is a friend of mine from way back. Godfuckingdammit. I’m so fucking blind with rage I can barely type.

  105. 105
    Barb (formerly Gex) says:

    @TR: I’m sorry for the pain you must be experiencing. Here’s hoping she makes a full and speedy recovery.

  106. 106
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @campionrules: He listed every book he was asked to read in high school, is my take on the list. And the Manifesto is commonly assigned in gov’t and economics classes — mostly because it’s short, and you can’t cheat by watching a movie of it instead of reading the book.

    Me, I’m waiting for the Coen brothers version of Kapital….

  107. 107
    RalfW says:

    @Bob Loblaw: “Semi-automatic weapons are tragically effective at what they’re built to do… ”

    IN that regard, the NRA is also complicit in these events. Advocating for the fully unregulated access of the citizenry to whatever firepower they desire is insane.

    A 9mm Glock capable of killing 6 and maiming 12 more in a matter of moments in a Safeway parking lot is utterly divorced from advocating for the 18th century notion of access to a musket in every home.

  108. 108
    JCT says:

    @stuckinred: You beat me to it.

    It’s too early to speculate about his mental status. The bottom line is the guy appears to have obtained a semi-automatic weapon with a fully loaded (and illegal — amazing since there are barely any gun laws in AZ) extended magazine, went to an advertised “Meet and Greet” with a congresswoman and shot her point-blank in the head. And then opened fire on everyone else, killing several people. There’s some planning involved here and one has to assume the “point” was to shoot Giffords. Anyone trying to come up with another motivation is really fishing.

    I’m looking forward to hearing the circumstances of the firearm. Fully legal? If he was known to be mentally ill, who sold it to him? No nice that he could conceal it without a permit.

    And one of the news sites has a clip of Giffords calling out that grifter-quitter-idiot Palin for her “crosshairs” graphic. Fucking chilling.

  109. 109
    Paris says:

    I wish there was a reality show called “Sarah Palin’s Soviet Gulag”

  110. 110
    PaulW says:

    @jeff:

    Crazy people do not exist in a vacuum. They pick up on the craziness floating out there and react (and act) accordingly.

    I’ve worked at enough libraries to have met enough people with certain… issues… to recognize half the stuff on Loughner’s YouTube as standard-operating-crazy. For the most part, they are friendly enough and they try to mean well, but they always give off this out-of-focus vibe (some even as they calmly and expertly proclaim how sane they are… in a Poe-like Telltale Heart way O.o… ), and I’ve seen one go off in a rage before over absolutely nothing at all… And I was always amazed at how quickly and readily they bought into the extreme conspiracy and occult wackery stuff on T.V. or in the books on our shelves…

    Loughner’s stuff online suggests he was both a left wing looney tune obsessed with end times, as well as a gold-silver strict constitutionalist of the Ron Paul variety. Not a good mix either way.

    Would love to know what the previous criminal history on the shooter is, and just what was on his mind the last three weeks – three months…

  111. 111
    stuckinred says:

    @RalfW: And all this speculation about magazines is silly, if you know what you are doing you can reload a glock before anyone can blink.

  112. 112
    stuckinred says:

    @PaulW: If the youtube’s are his he was trying to get in the military.

  113. 113
    johio says:

    What struck me about this was not left/right wing questions but the fact that one guy could shoot so many people so quickly. Thanks again to the NRA! Will this country ever grow up and stop conflating penis size with calibre?

  114. 114
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @JCT:

    If he was known to be mentally ill, who sold it to him? Not nice that he could conceal it without a permit.

    By the end of the year basically anyone who’s not insane, a felon or under a restraining order will be able to carry concealed without a permit in AZ. New law from last year, but not yet in effect.

  115. 115

    @JCT:

    It’s too early to speculate about his mental status.

    No, it’s really not. This guy was profoundly mentally ill, like the South Korean kid at Virginia Tech.

  116. 116
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @stuckinred: Pima County Sheriff’s Deputy interviewed on MSNBC said the guy had an extended mag. He also made a point of saying he did not know or refused to speculate on other questions, so I would guess that the extended mag was confirmed.

  117. 117
    Alex S. says:

    I would like to speculate some more, but I think it’s well-founded. He shot Giffords only once, even though the semi-automatic weapon would have allowed for more. He was probably not a cold-blooded murderer who knows what he is doing. He didn’t think it through. But when he realized what he was doing he shot randomly into the crowd. Shooting the little girl was probably not what he intended. He even “forgot” to shoot himself, probably because his mind was in total disarray.

  118. 118
    Mike Kay says:

    MSNBC is now talking about the climate of hate fostered by wingnut media and how Palin was using sniper scopes on her web site, one specifically aimed at Giffords

  119. 119
    jeff says:

    @gil mann:

    It’s not sarcasm. I’m stating that it behooves people who are influential to measure their words and not sound incendiary. I did my masters on Nietzsche and would never suggest altering one word. I am simply recognizing what others are saying, which is that, while Palin (Beck, whatever) is not responsible, the language floating around matters.

    My intention is the exact opposite of what you fear–I’m saying that it’s wrong to blame The Beatles, or Catcher in the Rye, or Nietzsche for anything–while also recognizing that influential people “ought” to be more careful about what they say. Nothing about laws, censorship, etc.

  120. 120
    burnspbesq says:

    @JCT:

    Ironically (or perhaps not), Arizona has arguably the narrowest insanity defense of any state. The only thing a defendant can argue is that they lacked the capacity to determine whether what they were doing was right or wrong.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/sup.....66.ZS.html

  121. 121
    stuckinred says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I know, my point is that it doesn’t really matter. He could have done it either way.

  122. 122
    AhabTRuler says:

    @West of the Cascades: You ever been in the same room as Jim Brady?

  123. 123
    PaulW says:

    @wengler:

    “Most assassins aren’t mentally ill.”

    A quick rundown of most of our homegrown assassins and mass shooters show a disturbing trend of mental instability, manic depression, lost touch with reality, social anxiety, and over-exaggerated sense of worth (how many of our assassins thought they would win fabulous prizes for what they did?). Booth, Oswald, the guy who shot President Garfield, Hinkley, Squeaky Fromme, the guy who tried to hijack a plane and smash into Nixon at the WH… all of them, a touch on the crazy, paranoid, egotistical side. And the mass shooters, like Whitman off the Texas tower… Columbine… Virginia Tech… social losers with ticking time bombs.

    I think you confused “assassins” with “hit men”. And even then, hit men are sociopaths.

  124. 124
    13th Generation says:

    @Alex S.:
    Maybe you should serve as his attorney.

  125. 125
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @joe from Lowell:

    Like I said, compare and contrast reactions to similar incidents.

    Cantor went nuts, seeing it as a chance to get his name in the news. Before any police reports were even in the first draft stage.

    DeFazio and his staff would not comment on the incident. Except to say “no comment”.

  126. 126
    Cat Lady says:

    @Paris:

    I wish there was a reality show called “Sarah Palin’s Soviet Gulag Grave and Dance Party”

    FTFY. Fuck her and fuck that fucker McCain. Also, too.

  127. 127
    JCT says:

    @joe from Lowell: I just think it is irresponsible to speculate about his medical history until we have all the information. Yes, he’s unlikely to be “normal” — but mental illness runs wide.

    @Davis X. Machina — yup, typo on my part, I know about that idiot Brewer’s dismantling of what little gun control there was in AZ. I think one of Obama’s biggest mistakes was taking Napolitano out of AZ and letting that horrid Brewer take over. She signed a ton of gun laws that Janet had vetoed. Horrid person that she (Brewer) is.

  128. 128
    Suck It Up! says:

    @J.:

    Just watched Obama. Kind of chilling. Bill Clinton would have been in tears one minute, pointing a finger and going ole fire and brimstone the next. Obama, on the other hand, was… Obama. Sigh.

    what a dumb ass fucking comment.

  129. 129
    JGabriel says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    [Loughner] listed every book he was asked to read in high school, is my take on the list.

    Mein Kampf is on that list, and I don’t know any of school where that is required reading.

    Giffords is Jewish, by the way.

    .

  130. 130
    mcd410x says:

    No matter what the motive, it’s still terrorism.

  131. 131
    Nick says:

    @change:

    Or remember when the left told us for eight years that Bush was illigetimate, that he stole both elections, that he’s a war criminal, a Nazi, a Fascist, that he’s controlled by the Blackwater/Halliburton junta?

    yeah, but that was different, it was clearly true.

  132. 132
    The Populist says:

    @Seebach:

    The fact Glenn Beck feeds into this shit is proof that you can cause people to snap with a deluge of negative imagery.

  133. 133
    Alex S. says:

    @13th Generation:

    Ah, yeah, now I see how my comment makes it all seem not as bad as it is. But I also think that such a person needs to be locked away for a very long time.

  134. 134
    TR says:

    @change:

    My friend was just shot in the head. I hope you and Sarah Palin are happy.

    You can take your false fucking equivalence and shove it right up your goddamn ass. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

  135. 135
    burnspbesq says:

    According to Sully, a picture (that looks suspiciously like an extended magazine) was posted on what appears to have been Loughner’s MySpace page on Christmas Eve, under the headline “My countdown: no one read this! Jizz stain.”

    I’m a tax lawyer, not a prosecutor, but I think I could use that to prove premeditation.

  136. 136
    The Populist says:

    @change:

    He was illegitimate. Since you aren’t here anymore, I will explain in the simplest terms:

    The minute the Supremes gave the middle finger to Florida voters and threw out any recount is the minute Bush was illegitimate. He did not win in a democratic fashion.

  137. 137
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @JGabriel: It’s not a programmatic list for any known political ideology I can see.

  138. 138
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    I’ve said this before elsewhere on the ‘tubes, but I think it bears repeating here, in light of the recently departed troll’s general gist.

    Comparing George W. Bush to Hitler is unfair.

    To Hitler, who was a decorated, wounded in action war veteran.

  139. 139
    The Populist says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Shoot for once I can agree with you on something. Weird how he can’t shed a tear for a fellow Rep or a nine year old kid?

  140. 140
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    Woodrow @ #83:

    From Sully:

    Various Palin sites are frantically removing various incendiary materials – which is both gratifying, but also, it seems to me, an acknowledgment of previous rhetorical excess.

    Whether or not this guy was doing this because of the wingers rhetoric, the fact that these people are trying to pull the evidence – and forgetting about the history of the internet – says a lot about them. They know what they are saying is wrong, otherwise they shouldn’t have to pull the stuff down, but they thought it was OK since no one had acted on it.

  141. 141
    The Populist says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Yes, but they share one thing…they took power with the help of the nation’s elite.

  142. 142
    RalfW says:

    @stuckinred: The magazine is very secondary, the Glock and other high power semi-automatics are the issue.

  143. 143
    The Populist says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Amen. Seems to me they don’t stick to their beliefs like they claim.

    They scamper away when the shit hits the fan. All have been exposed. Let’s hope Americans start to see that this kind of rhetoric should not be rewarded.

  144. 144
    Nick says:

    @Suck It Up!: I took it as a joke.

  145. 145
    JCT says:

    @The Populist:

    Shoot for once I can agree with you on something. Weird how he can’t shed a tear for a fellow Rep or a nine year old kid?

    Uh, because the usual tears are fake and contrived and this time the situation was real? Boehner is a scumbag, but he’s gotta be worried that this was some sort of teabagger/right-wing hit and even he might be concerned. Even just for himself — probably shocked the crocodile tears right out of him.

  146. 146
    blackwaterdog says:

    @change:

    All true. What’s your point?

  147. 147
    The Populist says:

    @RalfW:

    Does anybody have stats that lay out how many gun crimes are committed in AZ than in states that don’t have open carry laws?

    I have to wonder because I think this idea of being able to openly carry guns doesn’t deter shit. A criminal has an easier time committing crime because of this freedom.

  148. 148

    I looked at the some of the shooter’s stuff on YouTube.

    I don’t think he is schizophrenic, not full-blown, anyway. But then, I am not a psychiatrist.

    On the other hand, if he isn’t downright crazy, he probably had some kind of an agenda.

  149. 149
    The Populist says:

    @JCT:

    You and I agree…I was being rhetorical.

  150. 150
    Jon H says:

    @Alex S.: “He shot Giffords only once, even though the semi-automatic weapon would have allowed for more”

    He shot her through the head, apparently at the temple. He probably figured he didn’t need to shoot her again.

  151. 151
    The Populist says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    I see many his age who buy into this nonsensical teabagger crap (fiat money should be illegal unless backed by gold and other nonsensical ramblings of the far right).

    The fact is that while I will never deny the right of free speech to tards like Glenn Beck, his type does not have a right to be on TV. Fox should be reminded that if they can’t reign the creep in, they could lose some of their cush licenses.

  152. 152
    gogol's wife says:

    @TR:

    I’m really sorry. This is incredibly horrible.

  153. 153
    Cain says:

    @campionrules:

    He also was talking about literacy and how important it was. Then there was the picture of him being a volunteer at a book fair or something. That is not typical right wing thing. I think the guy is nuts and has paranoidal tendencies but I don’t think he’s some kind of right wing ideologue.

    cain

  154. 154
    Mike Kay says:

    Olbermann will have a special on MSNBC tonight at 8 PM eastern.

  155. 155
    The Populist says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    He appears to have an agenda. He had issues with federal laws as treasonous and had problems with money.

  156. 156
    Jon H says:

    His YouTube videos to me looked like tea party goldbuggery, seen darkly through a glass of untreated psychotic illness.

    Early 20s is when that sort of thing often shows up in men.

  157. 157
    13th Generation says:

    I don’t give a shit if this guy was batshit or not, it’s entirely too easy to buy guns in this country, period. The media (and plenty of assholes on this blog) are already making excuses for him. Use your fucking heads people.

  158. 158
    The Populist says:

    @Cain:

    I know conservative dems who are buying into tea bag thinking. It’s not specifically a right/left thing. He picked a dem congressperson in a state where there are tons of GOP targets had he wanted to go after them (and yes, I’d be outraged if he tried to harm any of them!). He picked her. Why? My guess is simple: She was a dem.

  159. 159
    msskwesq says:

    @change: No he’s not… Go to Huff Post and see his My Space posts, etc. –he is totally wrapped up in the Tea Bag rhetoric: the gold standard, illegal immigration, English vs Spanish. Its definitely weird, and he very well may be suffering from a mental illness, but he clearly has taken to heart the Beck/Palin/Limbaugh dog whistles…. Plus the police have a 2nd person in custody and are looking for a 3rd…. so it appears he’s not a “lone wolf”

  160. 160
    Jon H says:

    @Cain: ” That is not typical right wing thing. I think the guy is nuts and has paranoidal tendencies but I don’t think he’s some kind of right wing ideologue.”

    A friend of his on twitter says when she last saw him, in 2007, he was a lefty. If his mental illness started to emerge then, I could see him being drawn to the paranoia of the right wing that’s been overflowing since 2007.

  161. 161
    JGabriel says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    It’s not a programmatic list for any known political ideology I can see.

    No, it’s not. A good portion of it suggests the general theme of a persecution complex, though — Animal Farm, Brave New World, Fahrenheit 451, To Kill A Mockingbird, We The Living, One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, The Communist Manifesto, Siddhartha, Gulliver’s Travels, Mein Kampf. It kind of jumps out at you.

    I keep typing up several paragraphs, and then wiping them out as I realize it’s completely unsupported speculation. So I’ll just leave it at: I won’t be surprised if Loughner turns out to be a paranoid schizophrenic.

    .

  162. 162
    The Populist says:

    @13th Generation:

    I agree. Why does AZ insist on a law that allows anybody to openly carry a weapon? Seems like a dumb thing no matter what you believe.

  163. 163
    Cain says:

    @someguy:

    Right wing Bush appointee.

    I believe that was Bush Sr. and I think most of his appointments were reasonably sane. Bush Sr. was a moderate, he isn’t junior or any of these other scum.

    cain

  164. 164
    The Populist says:

    @Jon H:

    This I can believe. I have friends who were pretty liberal a few years back but now buy into the tea bag / right memes of illegitimate government laws, lack of freedoms, money is illegitimate, etc.

  165. 165
    Jon H says:

    @msskwesq: ” Plus the police have a 2nd person in custody and are looking for a 3rd”

    I’m doubtful on that. Even if they have someone in custody, it might just be someone who was running by, or whatever. The cops are going to be mighty jumpy after something like this, so mistakes are often made.

  166. 166
    Cain says:

    @stuckinred:

    @efgoldman: STOP TALKING TO HIM!

    I told you our commentariat have become pussies.. they can’t help themselves. We used eat these guys for lunch. The guy can totally jerk everyone around and people are still trying to engage him when it is just better to mock him. I’ve said it so many times. Nobody is listening.

    He’s just a fucker who wants to get a rise out of us and he’s doing it. Trying to address his bullshit makes you look stupid.

    cain

  167. 167
    13th Generation says:

    @Cain:
    Right. Thanks for your in-depth analysis.

  168. 168
    JCT says:

    @The Populist

    Yeah, my meter is off today – this really got to me.

  169. 169
    gnomedad says:

    @The Populist:

    Weird how he can’t shed a tear for a fellow Rep or a nine year old kid?

    People process emotions in different ways. I’m happy he doesn’t feel the need to affect the “required” manifestation.

  170. 170
    msskwesq says:

    @Barb (formerly Gex): You are so right here. I am an attorney that works with the criminally insane and mentally disabled. I can tell you from experience that the mentally ill often are more affected by TV and radio programming and they process what they hear differently than most of us. Most of the time, they just ruminate and hide in their homes. But there are those who get pushed to the brink and take overt, irrational actions against perceived persecutors – usually parents, former love interests, teachers, acquaintances, not usually public figures. However, his My Space and YouTube videos show he has been highly influenced by the Tea Party/Glen Beck/FOX/Palin rhetoric. He may be mentally ill or just a true believer, but it is the far right rhetoric that pushed him over the line. They have blood on their hands in my opinion, because they know full well that there are ill people out in our society that have the capacity to react violently to the nonsense they spew over the airwaves. In fact, I feel they are hoping for just that eventuality, although I think they want it to be Obama or Pelosi killed….

  171. 171
    Admiral_Komack says:

    @J.:

    “Just watched Obama. Kind of chilling. Bill Clinton would have been in tears one minute, pointing a finger and going ole fire and brimstone the next. Obama, on the other hand, was… Obama. Sigh.”

    Would you care to explain those statements?

  172. 172
    eemom says:

    ding dong, the troll is banned
    WHICH old troll?
    the shithead troll!
    ding dong, the shithead troll is baaaaanned

  173. 173
    Mnemosyne says:

    @demkat620:

    We only heard the press conference on the radio (NPR), but Brewer sounded genuinely upset when she said that Giffords was a friend of hers.

    I’d like to think that having something like this hit so close to home will wake Brewer up to what her allies are really advocating, but I have my doubts.

  174. 174
    Zach says:

    I’m kind of amazed that there’s been so many acts of lunatic right-wing violence over the past few years that no one’s even mentioning similar attacks in comparison. Things like the guy flying his plane into an IRS building were forgotten because you don’t want to look like you’re picking on the right or anything.

    We’ve got an increasing number of people with actual power in Washington who are spouting the same nonsense as this kid, minus the schizophrenic touches. As in the 90s, it’s time to connect the dots and marginalize the politicians who legitimize this questions by confronting them with reality. If Ron Paul runs for President again and the sponsors of a debate invite him to participate, they’ve got a responsibility to grill him about one-world-government conspiracies, the Amero, the NAFTA superhighway, etc. They can participate if they want, but the price of doing so will be being confronted with every crazy thing they’ve said in the past.

  175. 175
    Cain says:

    @13th Generation:

    @Cain:
    Right. Thanks for your in-depth analysis.
    Reply

    You’re welcome!

    cain

  176. 176
    Mike Kay says:

    President convenes emergency national security meeting in wake of assassination attempt.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/site.....S-0188.jpg

  177. 177

    @Mike Kay: One of the candidate donations that resulted in Olbermann’s suspension was to Giffords.

  178. 178
    13th Generation says:

    @Cain:
    I defended your right to exist around here when everyone else was telling you to fuck off and die.

    I don’t need your sanctimonious BS on this day. Fuck you, and all your pals. Eat shit and die. I hope you never show your glibertarian ass around here again.

  179. 179
    Morbo says:

    Another head wound survivor: the best sniper ever.

  180. 180
    PurpleGirl says:

    @Cain: Yeah, I saw that too. But did you notice he said “conscience dreaming.” I think he meant conscious dreaming, where you are aware of the dreaming process and try to influence it. Literate but to a point.

  181. 181
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    I haven’t been close to radio or TV so am not sure how to pronounce Loughner’s name. In my head, it’s LONER.

    Somewhere along the way, I thought I saw that he is a veteran. Action? Iraqistan? Anyone know?? I can’t even find now where I saw that.

  182. 182
    RalfW says:

    I wonder if the three mailed incendiary devices may have helped trigger him? News that another person was taking ‘action’ to ‘resist’ the gov’t may have fueled his paranoia/insanity.

    God help us I hope there aren’t more that hear the dog whistles.

  183. 183
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @TR: OMG, how dreadful for you. I’ve added you to all those who are in my heart and thoughts.

    // don’t do prayers per se

  184. 184
    Joseph Nobles says:

    @PurpleGirl: I thought the same, but it could also be that this is some idiosyncratic coining of his diseased mind. He’s claiming special knowledge and dismisses others when they don’t see what he sees in texts. If you’ve never seen TimeCube, Google it and you’ll see a much more expressed psychotic worldview. With Loughner, we’re only getting a few glimpses into something that may be every bit as involved.

  185. 185
    Cain says:

    @13th Generation:

    I defended your right to exist around here when everyone else was telling you to fuck off and die.
    I don’t need your sanctimonious BS on this day. Fuck you, and all your pals. Eat shit and die. I hope you never show your glibertarian ass around here again.

    umm.. you sure you’re talking to the right guy? I’m really offended you called me a glibertarian. Really.. that’s like diametrically opposed to everything I believe in.

    cain

  186. 186
    WaterGirl says:

    I just received this email from alan grayson:

    A reporter called me a little while ago, and told me that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords had been shot at a public event. She is in critical condition.

    I’m going to let others comment on what this means for America. I just want to say what it means to me.

    Gabrielle Giffords and I served together on the House Committee on Science and Technology. She was the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics, and I was a member of that subcommittee. Her D.C. office was one floor above mine.

    I saw Gabby dozens, if not hundreds of times, during our two years together. And nearly every time that I can remember, she was smiling.

    Gabby is one of the most cheerful, charming and engaging people I have ever known. She’s always looking on the bright side. She has something good to say about pretty much everyone. Bad news never lays a glove on her. She loves life, and all the people in it.

    No matter what is going on in your life, after fifteen minutes with Gabby, you’ll feel that you can touch the stars.

    Everyone knew that Gabby would have a tough race in 2010. (She actually won with 49% of the vote.) But I always thought that if each of her constituents could spend that fifteen minutes with her, and see what she is really like, then she would win with 99.9% of the vote. (Same thing about Harry Teague of New Mexico, who lost, and a few others that I could name.) You would want her as your Congressman, because you would want her as your friend.

    I know nothing about the man who shot Gabby, and what was going through his mind when he did this. But I will tell you this – if he shot Gabby out of hatred, then it wasn’t Gabby he was shooting, but rather some cartoon version of her, drawn by her political opposition. Because there is no way – NO WAY – that anyone who really knows Gabby could hate her or hurt her. She is a kind, gentle soul.

    My heart goes out to Mark Kelly, Gabby’s husband, and the many, many people who love her. Gabby, we don’t want to lose you. Please stay here with us.

    Alan Grayson

  187. 187
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Reports (sporadic on MSNBC) that “suspicious packages” have been found (or maybe singular) outside her Tucson office.

  188. 188
    Anne Laurie says:

    @13th Generation: I believe you have mistaken long-term commentor Cain for recent front-page addition, E.D. Kain.

  189. 189
    honus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Bullshit. Cantor’s office was not shot at. The police investigation concluded that bullet fired from several blocks away inadvertently broke a window.
    Cantor held a press conference to whine about this a few days after a tea party terrorist cut a propane line at Tom Perriello’s brother’s house, because the Lynchburg Tea Party had posted the wrong address for Tom’s home, listing his brother’s address instead.

  190. 190
    13th Generation says:

    @Cain:
    also @ anne laurie

    Hope this thread is still active and you guys read this.

    Mea Culpa. Too many drinks tonight, I’m really pissed off and wound up tonight. Apologies all around, although you’ve probably moved on by now.

  191. 191
    Suck It Up! says:

    @Nick:

    I took it as a joke.

    It better be a joke, but the commenter has not returned to says so.

  192. 192
    piratedan says:

    @change: @39

    you mean he didn’t?

Comments are closed.