In an otherwise innocuous column reassessing Palin’s chances for the nomination in 2012, Nate Silver mentions an interesting statistic:
There aren’t a lot of moderates in the Republican base, and their numbers are declining somewhat. But there are some: 27 percent of Republicans identify as either moderate or liberal.
So… has identifying oneself as a Republican if one’s views are other than batshit conservative now indicative of a mild mental disorder?
LosGatosCA
Those 27% are the corporate, libertarian, ‘let them eat tax cuts for the rich and privatized Social Security for the rest’ Republicans’ who run the con on the rest.
WereBear
I call foul; how can any Republican call themselves “moderate or liberal”? Especially the “L” word?
alwhite
yes
simple question / simple answer
Keith
I’m guessing this further breaks down to 26% moderate and 1% liberal.
gnomedad
Or would that be crazy squared?
cathyx
When you consider how much politics has moved to the right, those who call themselves conservative republicans are the crazies. In order to be viewed as not one of them, they call themselves a moderate or even liberal republican.
LosGatosCA
At only 73% non-moderate or liberal can only mean peak wingnut is still quite a ways off.
Of course, a liberal Republican is defined by his/her opposition to the death penalty when 3 year olds are tried as adults for stealing toys from playmates during playtime at the pre-school. Moderates can go either way depending on the color of the child doing the stealing vs the color of the child being stolen from.
Ross Hershberger
I suppose a lot of the Moderate Republicans are holdovers from when the GOP actually stood for ideas that sane people could get behind, like balanced budgets long term, cautious international policy, stability and the rule of law.
Many people like my dad would have to admit they hate the modern GOP leadership/direction but could never bring themselves to identify with the Democratic Party.
benintn
Some people are Republicans like people are Auburn fans… their mommy was a Republican, their granddaddy was a Republican, and they remember the good old days when Eisenhower was President. Bear in mind that this is 27% of 32% (or less), so we are talking about a very small (i.e., 9%?) of the population here.
In the same way, you have plenty of Democrats (Dixiecrats, frequently) who still call themselves D’s but feel that the Democratic Party has left them behind.
And of course, in any survey, when you’re talking about 9% of your survey sample, some of this can just be attributed to error or to people gaming the survey or to people who don’t understand the questions or the meanings of words.
beltane
In the land of the crazy, sanity is considered a disability. The Cyclops probably considered all the two-eyed creatures to be defective in some way. I think there was a Twilight Zone episode on something along these lines.
TheMightyTrowel
I’ve been avoiding work (i hate the world right now) by browsing the intertubes and reading unmoderated comment sections.
The repub congress is almost enough to make me want to give up my citizenship.
I’m not even hung-over and I feel like crawling back into bed with a mug of soup and never coming out again.
bemused
27% of R’s self identifying as moderate or liberal is pretty hilarious. I suppose in comparison to the bat shit craziness that dominates the republican party today that would be somewhat accurate but they are deluding themselves. They are just trying to stay republicans pretending their party hasn’t gone completely bonkers.
Ross Hershberger
@bemused:
Possibly they vote for one of the handful of old school moderate Republican politicians who have hung on through incumbency and avoided being picked off by a mouth-frother.
Yeah, some day we’ll be able to tell the little ones:
“You know there used to be Republicans who supported a woman’s right to chose. One of them was even president. And telephones all had wires attached. Now get off my damn lawn.”
Rihilism
Moderate or “liberal” republicans? I’m assuming that refers to social moderates or liberals. Of course, the fact that socially moderate or liberal republican is still an oxymoron implies a mental defect or disability or at least a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance (yes, I realize these are not mutually exclusive).
It’s quite easy to claim social moderation and yet support socially immoderate positions (i.e., “I support the repeal of DADT, but SSI simply must be cut for our children and grandchildren’s sake. Oh, won’t someone think of the children!”). The lack of awareness of the socially liberal/fiscally conservatives can be quite breathtaking.
Then there are the special (very special, ;) ) cases, the living oxymorons. You know, the black conservative, the Hispanic conservative, the gay republican, etc., many who believe that as long as their “class” is ultimately shielded from state sponsored discrimination it’s more than ok to treat the poor or other disadvantaged like crap. You know, people like Andrew Sullivan. There’s little doubt in my mind that had Andy-boy been born liking girls, his advocating for gay marriage and repeal of DADT would have been less vociferous (i.e., non-existent). His treatment of teh gays would likely have been more in line with his treatment of blacks and the poor (a nice cocktail of absurd Randian worship mixed with a healthy dose of discredited eugenics).
As a gay man, a liberal and a cynic, I foresee a significant downside to social acceptance of homosexuality. I’m afraid we’re likely to see more and more gay republicans (“I’m here, I’m queer, now where the hell are my tax cuts”). Social acceptance will give cover to those more than willing to kick the other disadvantaged to the curb as long as they have their status protected. Do I feel that you absolutely have to been a liberal if you’re gay? Of course not. But one would hope that someone who experiences the hardships associated with being a member of an often times mistreated minority would develop a greater sense of compassion and empathy for all others who are treated poorly. You know, a real social moderate or liberal.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ross Hershberger: My guess is that they still self-identify as Rs, but have voted for Ds almost exclusively since the mid-90s. Family tradition, etc, has kept them de jure Republicans, but they are de facto Democrats.
SIA
A moderate Republican is one who doesn’t hate and fear tan, brown or black skin tones.
Ross Hershberger
@Omnes Omnibus:
In the case of our family some who used to vote the straight R ticket now vote races individually, withholding their approval from the worst candidates. It takes a LOT to get someone whose identity as a conservative and a Republican developed over decades to vote for the other side.
WereBear
I agree, but one factor might be what social scientists have isolated as the deciding factor with abused children growing up to be abusers, or not: some of them do use empathy and become mature, compassionate, adults.
But some, and I can’t help think that maturity is what distinguishes them, go on to become abusers because they think that is where the power is; and they think they have to pick a side.
So much of present Republican black and white thinking speaks of inadequate ego consolidation. Once again, reccing Republican Gomorrah, which is a book length observational study which supports my theory.
kth
you have to factor in the Galt dorks insisting that they are “classically liberal”, might be 20% of the 27%
Mark-NC
@ kEITH
“But there are some: 27 percent of Republicans identify as either moderate or liberal.”
“I’m guessing this further breaks down to 26% moderate and 1% liberal.”
Almost certainly correct!
I’ll add a couple of categories to the list. You have to be certifiable to be:
A gay Republican
A Muslim Republican
A poor person who votes Republican
A Union member who votes Republican
Any others come to mind?
drkrick
I wonder what definition of “moderate” these people are using. I worked with a guy who thought he was a moderate on gay rights because he only wanted to lock them up, not shoot them.
Villago Delenda Est
In Oregon, I’m sure there are a lot of Republicans who are not involved in the details of party politics who would identify themselves as “moderate” or “liberal”, in the tradition of Mark Hatfield or Tom McCall.
The problem is that their party has been taken over by Jeebofascist wackaloons, many of them refugees from “liberal” California, who don’t understand that they have entered the most unchurched region of the country.
Ross Hershberger
Things changed a lot when Rove stepped into the picture and decided the way to get electoral majorities was to motivate people by amping up their fears and prejudices.
The GOP went from being about conservatism to being about hating the Other. that worked for a while, but now that cohort of inflamed and hysterical people that they lied to and manipulated has morphed into the Tea Parties and threatens the GOP’s ability to shape the narrative on the conservative side.
Live by the sword…
stuckinred
@Ross Hershberger: Too soon to tell. . .
Villago Delenda Est
@Rihilism:
Yes, one would hope that a reasonable person would be shaped by such an experience to create a situation where one would develop some empathy for others in a similar boat.
Then you have John McCain, who even though he’s been tortured himself, appparently sees no problem with it as long as the recipient of the torture is brown, Muslim, or poor.
sistermoon
@Mark-NC:
An African American or Latino Republican…
Punchy
You gotta figger there’s at least a small number of practical ‘pubs (like my mom) who will call themselves Repubs but are simply horrified at the bigotry and xenophobia of the modern party. 5 years ago they wouldn’t call themselves “liberal”, but in contrast to what they see their party doing today, they qualify as “liberal”.
Gin & Tonic
@Ross Hershberger:
Sounds like someone who has never heard of Richard Nixon.
bemused
The holidays are over and I’m grateful there will be months before being confronted with tacky, commercialized Christmas images again. I saw an ABC report on the shopping cart tree display in a couple of malls in CA. The artist talks about the symbolism of full/empty shopping carts, yada, yada, and there is a lighting ceremony of the tree with donations to those in need which is one good thing about it, I guess. I might be wrong but I think the shopping mall owner or operator originally commissioned the artist to make the tree. I suppose that the artist and some others would say that my feeling disturbed by a huge tree constructed out of shopping carts standing in a shopping mall is the intention. Maybe I would feel differently about the tree if it was located near a Salvation Army bldg or a homeless shelter instead of a shopping mall.
oth, I was amused by seeing a photo of a 20 ft tall tree made out of green marshmallow Peeps. No pretense about symbolism there.
SIA
@Mark-NC: A female Republican.
gene108
Democrats did it too…
I was listening to NPR yesterday or the day before, when they were doing a New Years recap or things to look forward to bit and one of the talking heads said, when Democrats regained control of Congress in 2007 they went out of their way to hold hearing after hearing involving the Bush Administration, so Issa & Co. are just going do what every Congress does, when the President is a member of the other Party and your Party controls at least one house of Congress, by subpoenaing the crap out of the Obama White House and holding endless hearings.
Sigh…the “very serious people” really are so vapid they can’t tell the difference about trying to find out, if a President knowingly lied to the public and Congress to launch a war versus 140 hours of testimony about who they send Christmas cards to…
gene108
@Gin & Tonic:
Or Lee Atwater…
srv
So, did everyone see the latest incite to treason?
Ross Hershberger
@Gin & Tonic:
Yes, nobody should ever forget the Southern Strategy. But in those days and to some extent up to Reagan the GOP still stood for conservatism in many things. Under Rove they abandoned the practice of actually governing in a manner that conserves anything but the wealth of the wealthiest and the power of the most powerful. Instead they now seek only power, and not a coherent vision of governing. And thanks to Rove and Atwater they’re doing that by manipulating the fears of a large population of people who they consistently mislead to screw them over.
The big difference is that the GOP at one time was honest about what it was about and you could take it or leave it. Now it’s just the publicity and motivation organization of the wealthy.
SIA
@srv: That is one fucked up bastard.
gene108
@srv: Wonder if GEICO will fire him, the way they fired the voice over guy for leaving a message on someone’s voice mail, during the HCR debate…or more accurately, why GEICO will turn a blind eye towards Emey’s comments versus reacting to the voice over guys rambling voice message…
arguingwithsignposts
Since this is an open thread, which is better: Rose Parade or Mummers? Discuss.
Villago Delenda Est
I’m afraid the old sarge has fallen into the “there was no administration between Clinton and Obama” trap that so many seem to suffer from. Eight years of wild and crazy spending and tax cuts for the parasite overclass that have gone down the memory hole.
SIA
@srv: Oddly enough, not a single mention of this a Daily Kos. Where is the outrage?
They seem to be able to gin it up for everything else.
Gin & Tonic
@Ross Hershberger: I think the creepy paranoia of the Nixon White House would fit perfectly in today’s GOP. Haldeman and Erlichman would be no different than half the people working for W.
You see a qualitative difference. I don’t. Yes, there may have been a moderating influence in the party (Chafee, Romney, Javits, people like that, Republicans from the Northeastern or Midwestern industrial states) that is now extinct, but Richard Nixon and the Orange County types are indistinguishable from, say, DeMint.
Rihilism
@werebear
Yes, I simply must read that book (as well as Taibbi’s “Griftopia and still others that I know will depress the hell out of me but I feel compelled to read. Speaking of, have you read Sharlet’s “The Family”? Truly frightening, depressing, shocking and perhaps the best explanation of U.S. politics and foreign policy of the past 80 years).
In addition to “where the power is”, I believe a significant amount self-loathing outwardly expressed as spittle-flecked hate is involved. I was once a self-hating homosexual (a former republican like John Cole but my “ick” vote was for Reagan in ’84 (Oh, God in heaven, who doesn’t exist, please forgive me!) not for Bush the Codpiece. Seriously, John, what were you thinking? I know, I know, “…glass houses…”, etc.).
As a recovering Catholic and now proud homosexual, I recall with sadness my years as a closeted man and a staunch conservative, arguing with my college freshman roommate that I thought all government funds should be spent on the military and none on “welfare”. What an ass I was! In retrospect it seems obvious that if one does not cares for oneself it’s rather easy to not give a shit about anyone else (of, course, caring TOO much for oneself, i.e., “where’s my tax cuts”, is yet another, shall we say, conundrum).
Luckily, my sexuality forced me to mature politically and socially and made me aware of and empathetic to struggles that others face. Unfortunately, the moniker “social liberal/fiscal conservative” still gives cover to those who wish to pretend that they care but are unlikely to demonstrate it…
Brick Oven Bill
Re: Mild Mental Disorders
When considering the political landscape; Teabaggers need to look no further than Ashton Kutcher. Upon the historic election of Barry, we observed Ashton’s creepy pledge to help in any way he could:
I pledge… I pledge… to be a better mentor to my younger sisters… to continue to be a mentor for Big Brothers and Big Sisters… I pledge… to reduce my use of plastic… by starting with using less bottled water… to plant 500 trees this year to help our planet… to be more green… to no longer use the plastic bags at the grocery store…
This video, of course, induced many of us to vomit, but the sound mind must not limit itself to only ideas to which it finds agreeable. We take one for the team. Now, after two years of Barry’s leadership, we again turn our attentions to Ashton, the prescient:
Ashton Kutcher Predicts Worthless Currency And Mass Panic, Recommends Getting As Buff As Possible.
Ashton is actually starting to make some sense and sounds like he might vote for Sarah this round, which is kind of cool.
Now, what can we, as engaged Citizens, learn from this transformation? The lesson, in my opinion, is that it was a big mistake to grant women the right to vote.
Ross Hershberger
@Gin & Tonic:
A lot of Michiganders remember moderate GOP governor Bill Milliken, who remains well thought of. And Mitt’s father was governor here, although before my time.
John Engler is the more modern type, slashing taxes and ‘privatizing’ everything he could.
The GOP used to be a truly conservative party of the Northeast, representing small business people, professionals and many in the middle class. It moved south and into crazy territory starting with the CRA when a vacuum was left behind by racists abandoning the Dems.
Villago Delenda Est
OK, I’m calling lame parody troll on this one.
RSA
@Keith:
__
I’d have guessed 1% too, but the Gallup poll breaks it down into 24% moderate, 3% liberal.
It’s all relative, I think. If you self-identify first as a Republican, you’re most likely to interpret liberal, moderate, or conservative by Republican standards. Which means that Republican conservatives really are crazy.
Violet
OT – TBogg won the Moore Award over at Sully’s place. Power voting FTW!
catclub
Did anyone else hear the report on NPR yesterday about the microfinance disaster ongoing in India?
Basically debt collectors doing their worst to collect on microloans.
A wave of suicides of women. Laws changed to essentially forbid microfinance. Setting back progress by ten years.
Depressing.
I wonder whether the microfinance system had never gone through a contraction and this is what you get – no more 100% repayment rates.
Or if a lot of fly by night organizations got into the business. I could not tell from the report – just heard the tail end of it.
catclub
@Ross Hershberger:
“CRA when a vacuum was left behind by racists abandoning the Dems. ”
Does anyone really think it is a coincidence that Civil Rights Act and Community Reinvestment Act have the same three letter acronym.
Both were pushed by ACORN!
WereBear
Yes, I have, and day-um. Incredible! These are sick sick sick people, and have no problem recruiting, either. They sell their soul for subsidized housing and maid service, seems to me.
But then it must be obvious their souls were not worth much on the open market, anyway.
Uloborus
I believe @drkrick: has nailed it here. You don’t have to KNOW you’re a crazy arch-conservative to be one. There is nothing stopping anyone from supporting having homosexuals and women with an education stoned to death, but believing themselves to be liberal.
Self-awareness is not something we’re instinctively good at, and all standards are formed by comparison with our surroundings.
Svensker
@SIA:
Right here.
Omnes Omnibus
@Svensker: I think the TfT response was pretty good.
Cheryl from Maryland
I remember during the 2004 election Samantha Bee inteviewed a woman whose was planning to vote for W, but whose main issues were abortion rights for women and increased stem cell research. Samantha asked her how she managed to get up in the morning and get dressed. The crazy: it has always been with us, and it points in more than one direction.
Villago Delenda Est
OT, sort of, but if you’re eager to make your post New Year’s Eve hangover even more intense (as penance or something) then go here for some stuff that will seriously make your brain hurt even more.
The stupid, it burns!
gogol's wife
Just to report a sign of creeping sanity: One of my friends last night who’s long been a Republican said, “I would not vote for any Republican whose name I now know.”
bemused
@Brick Oven Bill:
Seriously, who pays any attention to Ashton kutcher? Other than you, that is.
liberal
@catclub:
Microfinance, as a means of combatting poverty, is silly. Henry George figured out the root cause of poverty and the solution over 100 years ago.
eemom
here, this’ll fix your hangover
http://jezebel.com/5721528/fuck-you-2010?skyline=true&s=i
Ailuridae
I’m sure somebody wrote something more snarky and humorous but most of that 27% is just glibertarians.
Skepticat
As far as I can tell, most of these people have no idea what either of the words actually means.
Villago Delenda Est
One has to remember that Ashton Kutcher was not acting on That 70’s Show
Davis X. Machina
@Cheryl from Maryland:
Smells like team spirit… A fair amount of political science is made redundant by the sociology of sport.
Linda Featheringill
@Rihilism:
At #41.
Libido does that now and then. This is one reason why it is sometimes referred to as a “life force.”
Welcome out of the closet and into the progressive community.
suzanne
@Rihilism:
This. I have never fully comprehended why this isn’t true. Reminding myself that some people are selfish assholes seems an inadequate explanation.
El Cid
Maybe Republicans who say that they are moderate or liberal just see the scale differently, such that Democratic centrists and liberals are freakishly more radical than communists.
SIA
@Svensker: I stand corrected. (But what is Daily Kos Beta?)
SIA
@Svensker: I stand corrected. (But what is Daily Kos Beta?)
Nellcote
@catclub:
Suicides in India Revealing How Men Made a Mess of Microcredit
Ross Hershberger
Liberal Republicanism: Muslims, gays and Atheists will not be hunted, but if one crosses my path, WHAMMO!
Svensker
@Villago Delenda Est:
Linkee no workee and I’m REALLY in the mood for stupid (I’ve spent the last hour entertaining myself by googling best and worst fashion — I need to move UP to stupid).
Villago Delenda Est
@Svensker:
Oops. Sorry linkee broke. Here’s raw info:
http://conservapedia.com/Essay:Greatest_Conservative_Movies
Brace yourself for a Bianca Blast of stupid.
Omnes Omnibus
@Svensker: AMC is airing a Three Stooges marathon.
Suffern ACE
@Nellcote: That sums it up nicely. Some “small loans” are just small loans and are more like credit card debt than micro-finance.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Good God. I r dumber for having reeded that.
Svensker
@Villago Delenda Est:
Goldarnit! I said stupid, not infuriatingly moronic… On the other hand, I now have enough energy to get off the couch. Um, thanks, I think.
Villago Delenda Est
@Svensker:
My work here is done. :)
Bmaccnm
@Villago Delenda Est:
I know I’m late to the party, but dang, that was stupid. John Wayne thought “High Noon” was the most un-American movie ever made? “Grease” “even mocks television”? Dang. I was previously unaware of Conservapedia, and my life is now poorer for my awareness. A person spent some of the finitely numbered minutes of his or her (why do I think “his”?) life to compose this and commit it to electrons. Others have spent some of the finitely numbered minutes of their lives reading it. These are minutes that could have been spent doing real good works, or raking the lawn, or bathing. Who the hell are these people, and why do they have political power?
Dee Loralei
@Bmaccnm: Phyllis Shaffley’s son is the founder of Conservapedia. I think he’s also the one behind the Conservative Bible project, I think they are getting rid of most of the red letter words. But keeping all the Leviticus.
Sandals
Actually, it’s worse than that. Recall that many ‘libertarian’ republicans identify themselves as “Classical Liberals” aka DA FOUNDING FATHAS. Also guns. While of course modern liberals are mutant communists.
So most of that 9% is actually just conservatives that read enough history to be embarassed about the title of conservative.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Villago Delenda Est: No Clint Eastwood films?
JohnR
@Ross Hershberger:
No, those are the liberals. The moderates agree with Glenn Beck, but think his delivery is a little disturbing and sometimes he might go a little too far.
Sorry if this has already been thoroughly chewed-over. I’m still waking up. So, how are the Steelers doing?
Oh, hey – it’s BOB! Happy New Year, but please, for your good health, ease back on the Sterno. Try switching to Methanol – not only is it less toxic, but it also tastes better.
Bmaccnm
@Dee Loralei: I mean really, is this some sort of mental disorder? “Conservative Bible?” They want to rewrite the bible to reflect their own views? I’m not as familiar with DSM-III as I should be, but where do they fall on the spectrum? (In the first draft of that sentence, I wrote”ball on the spectrum” which greatly amuses me.)
John - A Motley Moose
@Nellcote: I’ve been thinking about putting a little money into a micro-finance fund. I discovered that many of the funds are for-profit. I wouldn’t put a penny in any of those. The Grameen bank, on the other hand, still looks like a worthy cause.
I was troubled about those suicides when I first read that article the other day. However, I found it less disturbing when I read the whole thing. There were apparently 70 suicides that may have been related to micro-finance loans. There were more than 14,000 suicides in that state during the same time period. While I agree that every life is precious, I don’t think these suicides should be used to damn the whole idea of micro-finance.
lllphd
ya know, i was thinking yesterday – or the day before, it is a blur – about how often i roll my eyes at the pure stupid that passes for real legitimate thought out there, and flash, my head was filled with the image of michelle bachman explaining that she retreated to the republicans because gore vidal was such a SNOB!
and the conclusion became so crystal clear: the republican party has indeed became the place you go if you are too stupid – and, importantly, stuck in your stupid – to think.
a little mini-epiphany for the new year transition. (tho, truth be told, in my more generous, less tired, no eye-rolling, positive moments, i realize all that stuck in stupid is just really fear deep down. i do suspect it’s easier to get thru to those types when that fact is remembered, so perhaps i’ll make that one of my ’11 resolutions; those stupid folks are just really really piss-in-their-pants scared. the image actually fits.)
SFAW
If it weren’t oxymoronic, I’d add “A non-insane Republican”.
SFAW
Well, to paraphrase Siggy, sometimes “stupid” really IS “stupid”.
forked tongue
A Hilary Clinton supporter who votes Republican.