You would think that by now, what with the “Happy Holidays” promos and its own “Holiday Party,” Fox would just forget the whole “War on Christmas” war. For years now, Fox has heavily promoted this idea that “secular progressives” are engaged in a so-called “war” on Christmas, declaring over and over that the holiday is “under attack.” In its efforts to continue this overhyped, manufactured non-controversy, the network has taken to misleading viewers and even has accused the Democrats of “waging their own War on Christmas.”
When all that failed, Fox tried to rebrand the “War on Christmas” — the “War on Christianity” — except that facts, predictably, got in the way of that campaign. Today, Fox has a new culprit to go after for supposedly waging a War on Christmas. It’s attacking the NBA for scheduling five games on Christmas Day.
If you do anything but what the Christo-fascists want on Christmas, they freak out. Do they even understand that not everyone in the country celebrates the holiday?
And all of you folks who attacked Kos for the “American Taliban” can kindly please be quiet.
Zifnab
My god, what’s next? Football on Thanksgiving?
N M
They (Fox) shouldn’t be broadcasting on Xmas day, methinks. Disrespectful to baby jeebus.
Mornington Crescent
ftfy
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
I won’t be quiet, because “American Taliban” is a ridiculous, offensive distortion of who the real Taliban are and what they actually do, and their victims deserve at least that much respect from us. To not belittle their horror by comparing it to people who foam at the mouth on Fox News.
Having said that….
Again, I’ll say that this is best, and most genuinely Christian, response to the War on Christmas nonsense that I’ve ever seen: http://filterednews.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/meditation-on-keeping-christ-in-christmas-a-would-be-viral-email/
And here’s me trying to make my peace with it all: http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2009/12/07/the-season/
Cat Lady
I watched Fox with the sound off at the gym today. All sour pussed ugly old white men, with a sprinkle of blonde airhead thrown in once an hour for the V!agra demo. They’re all just preaching to the choir of ugly old white men sitting on their fat asses at home who think that the whole world out here need to get off their lawn. It would be just sad and pathetic if Murdoch and Ailes weren’t also malignant.
BGinCHI
And they wouldn’t even be doing that if the NBA was all white guys who could only dribble with one hand and practiced the set shot.
And why don’t they lament the fact that Xmas is all about shopping and commerce?
Oh, that’s right. No one told them to do that.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Also, too:
Merry Christmas, ya old bank and loan, you!
freelancer
The only War on Christmas is taking place in India. Hey, wingnuts! Take a look. Because this is what an attack on your freedom and liberty looks like.
Oh, look though, atheists put up a billboard sign. Yawn.
John Cole
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: That’s why he didn’t call them the Taliban. He called them, get this, the AMERICAN Taliban.
Silver
@BGinCHI:
You think there’s a racial aspect to this? Not from Fox, surely.
Juan Williams to the white (snicker) courtesy phone please…
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@John Cole: Dude. Not ok. Still not ok.
Just as I don’t think we should call anyone but the actual Nazis the Nazis.
Jody
“American Taliban” is perfectly apt, and helps remind people that no, there is no such thing as Peak Wingnut.
pragmatism
FSM is pleased with hoops during Holiday. his noodly appendages lend themselves to the sport. so what’s the big deal?
Michael D.
I wonder if Fox News is going to shut down for Christmas day. I mean, if the NBA can’t work on Christmas because it’s part of the WAR, then certainly Fox should play by the rule, too, right?
Also.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
Oh, oh! And as someone in my Twitter feed asked, I wonder if Fox will be covering the War on Christmas in Jesus’ own home town?
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=344641
thomas Levenson
(a) I’m with JC on the Taliban/American Taliban thing: if you take Kos’s intent as trying to warn us as vigorously as possible that American religious extremism is an existential threat to our values and an actual violent threat to a small number of us (so far) then I’d say he’s right on.
(b) Can I recall my own personal war on Christmas. My pre-child habitual recognition of the day was known around the household as Jew Day At The Movies. (There is a schismatic sect that celebrates Jew Day On The Slopes, but they’re splitters). Chinese food for breakfast; three flicks at three different theaters (with more Chinese food for lunch) followed by hotel-bar burgers and lots of beer.
Good times.
Mumphrey
How many of these sanctimonious assholes who bleat about secular wars on Christmas show up regularly on those lame-ass Sunday morning talk shows? When Jim DeMint and James Inhofe and all the rest of these dicknoses choose not to go on those shows out of respect for the sabbath, then maybe I’d at least give them a little credit for being minimally intellectually consistent. Until then, they can shove their war on Christmas up their asses.
freelancer
@thomas Levenson:
You did all that as a fetus? I tip my hat to you, sir. Most impressive!
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
xxx
General Stuck
The annual cries of libtard “war on Christmas” from the mouthbreathing wingnuts, is a few notches up toward Peak Wingnut. This country is roughly 80 percent self identified as Christian, albeit only a smaller portion of that number as practicing Christians. The rest just say that when asked, cause they don’t much care either way and don’t want to answer why they are not Christians. There are a handful of dedicated atheists that keep watch over the separation of church and state in this country. And this is a good thing. But like any other group of citizens with a cause, no matter how noble, some of them go overboard.
And the wingnuts pounce like hungry predators looking for an anti American meme to gin up the wurlitzer and keep the red meat flowing to their true believers that liberalism is the devil incarnate, so you better watch out whose naughty and nice. Thank cable news and now the internet with this now mind numbingly stupid fixture of the Holiday Season. One more brick in the American wall of nonsense.
thomas Levenson
@freelancer: Ahead of my time, technically. ;)
BGinCHI
@Silver: They like Steve Nash, but it galls them he’s fucking Canadian.
slag
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Sorry, ellaesther, gotta disagree. Neo-Nazis aren’t putting people in ovens, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t Neo-Nazis.
Truth is that the only thing stopping these people [rightwing Christians] is that they lack the power to enforce their principles because they live in America.
Mumphrey
And I’m also amazed that these people’s faith is so weak that they take somebody saying “Happy holidays” as a threat to their beliefs. If their faith in their beliefs, or if their faith in their own conviction to those beliefs is that weak, then a few Happy holidayses aren’t what they need to be worrying about. They need to take a look at their own fortitude, it seems to me.
BGinCHI
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Can you get us a list, cuz I’m running short on memory for all these directions.
Wondering if it’s ok to call BofA “dicks” or will I be disrespecting my cock.
Jody
@slag:
Truth is that the only thing stopping these people is that they lack the power to enforce their principles because they live in America.
This cannot be said often enough.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: deleted for being more crabby that I feel like being.
@slag: Neo-Nazis are self-declared neo-Nazis, attempted to reproduce a moment in history that still stands as humanity’s nadir. They get to be called what they call themselves, because they really are trying to be Nazis. The “American Taliban” are many bad things — things I decry and oppose — but I don’t think a one has yet suggested throwing acid on the faces of girls who dare to go to school.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@BGinCHI: Wow, you’re an asshole!
There, you can put that in your list.
freelancer
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
The religious right is in the minority. Were they to come to power they would do their damnedest to transform this country into the Republic of Gilead. We know what their intent is. However, their desires are currently hamstrung by the laws, institutions, culture, infrastructure, and framework of the United States. If you gave a failed state with a similar percentage of wingnuts 5 minutes, you would see a Christian version of the Taliban. This would be an American Taliban, that is what these people are, which is to say religious fascists.
Old Dan and Little Ann
If you praise God after winning and there’s no one there to televise it, does it make a sound?
General Stuck
At least the real Taliban do their own murder and mayhem. The American Taliban contract much of that out to Blackwater, or a neo con president.
JenJen
Just popping in to say, hey, any chance for a Pens-Caps open thread? If it’s just me (it is), I’m cool with whatever our host decides.
Steelers, Pens. Could make it a combo. Just sayin’ is all.
amorphous
Easy to attack the NBA – it’s a mostly black league. Fox’s target demo will eat that up.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
I don’t understand why they don’t celebrate indefinite detention like everybody here.
.
.
slag
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: I see your point. But honestly, if Neo-Nazis are trying to put people in ovens, the majority of them aren’t trying too hard. They’re mostly bigoted wannabes, as far as I can tell. None too far from Faux Newsers when it comes to deed meeting word, by and large.
Nonetheless, I still hate Illinois Nazis.
BGinCHI
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Gotcha.
I think we can tell the difference between the religious extremists in Af/Pak who are women hating/fearing nutjobs and the American version who would like to round them up some gays and minorities (and, hell, mouthy women) and get rid of them somehow. If only they could take over the country.
There’s an argument behind “American Taliban,” and it’s not the one Fox uses when it throws around the word “Nazi.”
danimal
I’ll check in the next time The Masters coincides with Easter weekend, the holiest time in the Christian calendar. If Fox is upset by that, I’ll give ’em another listen.
But since they are the target audience for golf, I kinda doubt we’ll hear them blather on about the War on Easter.
Enjoy Spring Break in peace. And Happy Holidays, also, too.
NobodySpecial
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: No, they spend their time shooting abortion providers instead.
ogliberal
If the team from Hickory had Gene Hackman (forget that hippie Hopper) leading them to victory against the big city integrated team, the baggers would be just fine with that game being played on Christmas – because those fine Christian white boys would be going gods work defeating the godless city dwellers and negroes. Remember, Strap made them pray before every game.
Left Coast Tom
I plan to celebrate by skiing.
Ailuridae
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
How do you describe shaved headed Americans who punch off to mein Kampf?
Peter J
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
Not even the Illinois Nazis?
I hate Illinois Nazis.
EDIT: slag clearly won. I should not have been looking for a video…. (Why is the only good video of that scene dubbed in Russian….)
Mnemosyne
@slag:
Well, that’s not why they call themselves Neo-Nazis. They call themselves Neo-Nazis because they have adopted the philosophy and beliefs of the National SociaIist Party, aka the Nazis.
Not every white supremacist is a Neo-Nazi, so if you went around referring to everyone in, say, the Christian Identity movement as a Neo-Nazi, you’d look like an idiot who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Citizen Alan
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
No but quite a few of them have suggested internment camps for Muslims and the death penalty for homosexuality. We’re not talking about Presbyterians holding a bake sale here. When people talk about the American Taliban, we’re talking about that faction of American Dominionist Christianity which openly espouses tearing up our Constitution to replace it with the Book of Leviticus. They’re a death cult, and if they ever gain the power they seek, they will send you and me both to our graves for the sin of not agreeing with every word they say. Stop coddling them.
And for the record, I don’t see anything out of bounds with calling them “Jesus Nazis” either.
geoff
In Australia,Foxtel which is the main cable provider,has a promotion that uses….gasp….horror….the term ‘merry FOXMAS’
http://www.foxtel.com.au/shop/get-foxtel/default.htm
Nellcote
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
linky
Maude
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
I agree with you. Words lose meaning when the original meaning is taken out of it’s historical context and made to fit someone’s dislike of a group.
The Taliban have thrown acid in school girls faces because women are not to be educated.
The Christians who don’t like any changes and have mythical beliefs in how the US is supposed to be like are not violent extremists.
I am not talking about domestic terrorists, that’s another topic.
There was only one time in history that the Nazis had real power. It was the government leading the way, not groups of people hating other people. State sactioned murder and all the other horrors was perpetuated on those not considered Aryan.
The White Supremists are groups and not government entities.
I am being so obvious because I am trying to back up the important points you have made.
We lose the ability to communicate when misuse of language becomes popular and emotional descriptions are used in place of realistic descriptions.
Ailuridae
@Mumphrey:
Ding, Ding, Ding!
PurpleGirl
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: Both of these pieces were very good and beautiful. Thank you for linking to them.
Barb (formerly Gex)
Aw come on now. We all learned from Sully you can’t compare the Christian right to the Taliban because they haven’t been killing gays and women. Well, not officially as government policy anyhow. Until those policies are official, the fact that the right endorses just about every social more the Taliban does is irrelevant.
General Stuck
@Left Coast Tom:
And some of us celebrate when it’s over. Yin Yang, rhythms of life in the empire of raising complaints. You don’t know what you like till it’s gone.
Warren Terra
I grew up in an Atheist Jewish Sports-Indifferent household. Even so, I was raised to be quite impressed with Sandy Koufax refusing to play baseball on Yom Kippur; just Google “Sandy Koufax Yom Kippur” and in short order you’ll be taken to a blog post quoting a book saying “By refusing to pitch that day, Koufax became inextricably linked with the American Jewish experience”. If any of these NBA players want to stand up for their neglected minority – i.e., sincere, observant, self-denying Christians – I’m sure they could gain a similarly iconic status within that community. Certainly, if their teams were to attempt to punish them a lot of people would have their backs.
But there’s another side to this. Given that a decision to stay home with the family or go to church on Christmas would be a pretty safe one for the players to make, it seems likely that playing on Christmas doesn’t offend them. They may even be excited by the opportunity to have their athletic skills seen in more living rooms than usual. Unless it’s Fox News’s position that we should revive the Sabbatarian Laws and thereby forbid Entertainments on God’s Day (in which case they can go micturate up a rope), they’re telling the players how to be good Christians – and I doubt all are even any sort of Christian (not that all Christians observe Christmas on December 25, either).
Now, I have a bit more sympathy for the stadium workers, the concessionaires, the janitors, etcetera; even for the broadcasters. They have less power to insist on staying home. But I hope and assume they’re getting time-and-a-half, and had some ability to get out of working on Christmas if they wanted.
Suffern ACE
Does the NBA play every year on Christmas day, or is this just suddenly trying to get people upset over something that happens all the time?
Ailuridae
@Mnemosyne:
Actually a lot of white supremacists with shaved heads who are indeed Neo-Nazis don’t describe themselves as such because both Nazi and Neo-Nazi are severely damaged “brands”.
It was largely the SPLC who started placing these groups together and declaring them exactly what they were. Self-identification doesn’t establish identity in any meaningful way.
freelancer
@Maude:
Domestic terrorists that execute acts of terror specifically because of their faith are not another topic. This isn’t me branding all fundies in this country as Domestic Terrorists, this is me not whitewashing the acts of religious terror that have been part of at least the last two decades of our history. These lone wolves didn’t radicalize in a bubble. The fundamentalist mindset cultured them, lioned them, and sheltered them.
Mnemosyne
@Citizen Alan:
Go watch some videos of women in Afghanistan being executed in front of a crowd in soccer stadiums and then come tell us that Pat Robertson is just as bad as the Taliban.
There’s a difference between talking big about how you want to do things and actually throwing acid in girl’s faces when they try to go to school.
Barb (formerly Gex)
This atheist has been walking around, being assaulted by Christmas this and that since October. And I look at all these Christians I’m surrounded by. They all talk about what THINGS they want, what THINGS they are getting others, how they hate having to go out and get those THINGS.
The other day I was shopping and a lady cut in front of me so she could return a packet of rice without a receipt. She wished me a Merry Christmas. When I pointed out to her that not only did she cut in front of me, but she was taking up two cashiers when others were waiting. Then I asked her if she was a Christian. She shot me the dirtiest, meanest look.
No one seems to hate Christmas more than all the Christians I’m surrounded with.
Ailuridae
@Warren Terra:
Umm, but to actual practicing Christians, Xmas isn’t a big deal from a religious point of view. It is a cultural issue. And an American one.
If someone Christian in the NBA were to refuse to work on a generic Holy Day it would be Good Friday. Does anything else even warrant consideration?
Joshua Norton
@slag: Winner, winner. Chicken Dinner.
Cacti
It’s not even a matter of people not celebrating Christmas re: the NBA scheduling games.
The truth is, if you’re an adult, once the presents are opened in the morning, there ain’t a helluva lot to do for the rest of the day, and everything’s closed.
Jewish Steel
@BGinChi:
Wait, who’s disrespecting your Nazi cock? That shit aint kosher.
I just call people Stalinists and while they’re working out the implications, whoosh, I’m gone.
Comrade Dread
From what I can see, it’s only Fox News trying to stir up the pot here, not actual Christian groups.
Warren Terra
@thomas Levenson:
The problem is that the damn War On Christmas has been too successful, it’s just not the one that gets mentioned. Whether it’s because of rising commercia|ism (of society in general, not just of Christmas), or because of the disintegrating family, or differences in what constitutes normal family entertainment, this grand tradition has been lost to us non-Christians. Time was when a Jewish kid would experience Christmas as being a nice quiet day when their family could get a Chinese meal and go to the movies, because the Chinese restaurants were the only ones open and the movie theaters were deserted: all the Christians weer staying home with their families. But this noble tradition has been lost to us: now, we have to compete with Christians, who are eating out and going to the movies even on this holy Christian holiday. Bad Christians, I say! Stay home with your families, like your God intended! Leave the Chinese restaurants and movie theaters to us heathens, infidels, and nonbelievers!
Jody
The American Taliban helped sponsor the Ugandan Death to Gays act. So, yeah.
joeyess
What Cole said…….
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Suffern ACE: Every year. The thing is, that’s what my family likes to do on Christmas. They get together and do their Xmas stuff. Then they watch basketball.
Warren Terra
Dammit, commenting on the War On Christmas naturally leads me to use the word “commercia|ism” and get Moderated because it contains within it the brand name for a certain organ embiggening pill.
Cacti
I also got a good laugh about John Kyl saying christmas was the most sacred day in christianity.
Ummm…no…that would be Easter by a mile. The first four centuries of christians lived and died without celebrating christmas.
joeyess
Realizing of course that all NBA players are not African Americans, I was under the impression that the Christo-fascists demanded that all black folk work every day because they’re lazy, shuffling moochers.
Wow. You learn something new every day.
Nellcote
@Cacti:
.
The Pilgrims outlawed it.
Mnemosyne
@Barb (formerly Gex):
Do you really want to be attacking ellaesther because you think that an Israeli who left her country because of the religious violence there don’t really understand the danger of religious violence and extremism?
DonkeyKong
At this point Fox News is a hardware store that only sells wooden beams and nails to its customer base.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@General Stuck: That’s only for Muslims. The gays that get beat up and beat to death are dealing with real Taliban, whether or not Emily has to be afraid of that crap. Talk to the kids in Anoka where 3 kids were tormented to suicide and the Christians in that school district refuse to address the bullying. Oh wait, you can’t because they are dead. The American Taliban does not outsource their gay killing.
slag
@Peter J: Copyright Nazis.
…OK. Now that I said it, I’m starting to agree with ellaesther. This is a tough one.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Barb (formerly Gex): Oh and when Christians tell a woman she should die instead of get an abortion for a fetus that has no brain stem, that’s not Taliban either. Religious fanatics are only bad if they kill you with their bare hands, not their policies, right Emily?
General Stuck
@Mnemosyne:
This is true, but there is also fungible difference between those with the opportunity to do these things, and those that don’t have such an opportunity, but in some form would do those things, or similar barbarism based on religious license.
See the expanding Dominionist movement in the Christian community.
Plus, in the meta sense, I don’t see making functional delineations between a Christian US president consulting his “higher father” for advice and guidance on invading a foreign country for no good reason.
Maude
@freelancer:
I am talking about the Fox crowd who stir these things up. That is far different than terrorists.
Terrorists are irrational and it doesn’t matter what their “reasoning” for killing innocent people happens to be. They will latch onto anything that validates their feelings. They don’t think about it, they twist things and make them their own.
The War on Christmas was a media hype to get ratings.
I hope your cmas is enjoyable.
Mnemosyne
@Barb (formerly Gex):
Where Emily comes from, they’re more likely to set off a suicide bomb in a crowded marketplace.
But you’re absolutely right, you must know much more about religious violence than someone who lived through it has.
Tim I
Not to suggest Fox News could be wrong about this ‘secularist’ attack on Christmas, but NPR had a story today on poll results that show that 89% of Agnostics and 50% of Atheists celebrate Christmas.
Who then are these secularists that are waging war on Christmas?
asiangrrlMN
@N M: I agree with you.
I go back on forth on the American Taliban label. I think the portion of the far-right Christians who endorse killing abortion providers (and who actually kill the abortion providers) and rounding up Muslims/gays/etc. have earned the moniker. Still, when I read shit like this, I don’t think American Taliban applies. This, to me, is ridiculous posturing. They don’t believe their shit. They are doing it to feed red meat to the base. I’m not saying that’s not reprehensible in and of itself; I just can’t equate it with the tactics of the actual Taliban.
JPL
Why not attack movie theaters? Could it be because their employees are minimum wage and should just say thank you to the owners for having a job? On the other hand who owns Fox Searchlight…..hmmmmm
fasteddie9318
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
I can completely respect this perspective, but I also can’t shake the conviction that, if this were a more lawless society, Ralph Reed would be riding around the countryside on a horse stoning women and teh gay. The difference between these people and the real Taliban is the difference between our social stability and Afghanistan’s; it has nothing to do with the Christianists themselves.
Or, what @General Stuck said. I should read the whole thread before I post.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Maude: Every gay person who has been assaulted in this country has probably been assaulted by a Christian because of that Christian’s beliefs. Just because YOU don’t have to be scared of America’s Christians doesn’t mean that others don’t. Evangelicals have been speaking about curing gays for a long time. Now more and more of them have been discussing capital punishment. But if you are a straight white Christian, I can see that not being such a big fucking deal.
ETA: You make a very bold statement you know. You imply that there are ZERO violent extreme Christians. And since gays get killed and abortion doctors get shot, your entire argument is dead in the water if you don’t at least acknowledge the violence that American Christians actually commit.
Also I like how you separate violent religious extremists from domestic terrorists. Let me guess. As soon as a religious person commits violence they are a domestic terrorist and not a violent religious extremist. You can’t solve the problem by drawing a new label on the Venn diagram.
slag
@asiangrrlMN: Hmmmm…Interesting question. If people we call Neo-Nazis show up at meetings and nod their heads and get all dressed up but don’t actually kill or maim anyone, are they still Neo-Nazis?
And of course, this reminds me of the David Sedaris story about the one-armed plumber.
ETA: “Define an arm,” I said. “If you’re talking about the long, hairy thing that hangs from your shoulder, O.K., he’s got two, but if you’re talking about a long hairy thing that moves around and actually does shit then he’s got one, all right? I should know. I’m the one who carried the sink up three goddam flights of stairs. Me, not you.”
Citizen Alan
@Mnemosyne:
And why don’t you show that video to George Tiller’s widow so you can help her understand that this country’s religious right isn’t as bad as what you might find in a Third World country so we shouldn’t hurt their fee-fees by calling them a bad name. For an encore, you can show it to the children who attended that UCC church in Nashville that go shot up by a right-wing religious nut incensed that they accepted gays into their services.
Fuck the American Taliban.
Fuck the Jesus Nazis.
And fuck you, you accommodationist cow.
General Stuck
@Citizen Alan:
Real class there dude. Here is my virtual boot up your ass/
PanAmerican
@Suffern ACE:
First NBA Christmas game was 1967.
Ailuridae
@Barb (formerly Gex):
Ahh but you haven’t anticipated the “no true scotsman” defense. No actual Christian was beating on a homosexual; no actual Christian would do that. So the professed Christian who destroyed that gay man’s life? Yeah, he’s not a Christian. So yeah, fuck you for the suggestion that American Christians have an unsavory past to deal with.
Every American Christian who has committed a heinous act is not actually a Christian … there can be no American Taliban.
Fun game, eh?
Onkel Bob
What Frau Hauser overlooks is the Nazi’s and the Taliban did not gain power without some assistance from the populace. A populace who looked at their behavior (which is not unlike much of the behavior of the extremists in the Teahadists) and thought they aren’t that bad and they will moderate it once they are in power. Besides we need them to fix this “other people” problem we have.
So while the American Taliban is not closing family planning clinics or re-segregating schools and neighborhoods, do you believe they wouldn’t start with if they gain power and then continue to further down the road? All they need is a meek populace who is unwilling to call them for what they are. Once the camel’s nose is in tent, all hope is lost.
Their are people whom you can give the benefit of the doubt, that they are inarticulate and incapable of correctly expressing themselves. Then there is the American Taliban who cloak their evil intentions with piety. They cannot be trusted, nor should they be encouraged, tolerated, or given any quarter. They are a cancerous criminal clique and deserving of whatever scorn we heap on them.
Mnemosyne
@Citizen Alan:
You do realize that you’re getting angry with me for pointing out that an Israeli just might have a little more personal experience with religious violence than you do, right?
Again: Emily/ellaesther came to this country to escape what was going on in Israel. Now she’s being attacked by people claiming she doesn’t understand what it’s like to be violently attacked by strangers just because of who you are.
Seriously. Get over yourself.
asiangrrlMN
@Jody: I would co-sign with this. So, I think we need to separate the asshats bleating about the “War on Christmas” (who are asshats and reprehensible, but not really like the Taliban) and the far-right Christians who are actually doing shit like what’s happening in Uganda. I would be comfortable with calling them part of the American Taliban. Or, American Christian extremists since I think they deserve recognition all by themselves.
Mumphrey
@slag:
“It’s 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it’s dark and we’re wearing sunglasses.”
“Hit it!”
Maude
@Barb (formerly Gex):
You don’t make sense.
Bye
The Republic of Stupidity
@danimal:
I think you’ve got that backwards…
It s/b ‘the next time Easter coincides w/ Masters Weekend, the holiest time in the PGA calendar…’
BTW… Hitler started out w/ SIX drunken, angry Germans in the back of a Munich beer hall…
And he almost managed to destroy the world…
From small beginnings do sometimes BIG shit start…
Mark S.
The actual article isn’t as stupid as the headline: it’s just Phil Jackson whining about having to work (which in Phil’s case consists of telling his team to give the ball to Kobe) on Christmas every year. Zen Master wouldn’t have this problem if he coached the Clippers instead of the Lakers.
General Stuck
@Onkel Bob:
Jeebus, you moron. Ms Hauser is jewish.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Jody: YOU have the winner. Rick Warren – remember he was the moderate choice between Robinson and whomever the Falwell/Robertson group would approve – spoke at a conference telling the Ugandans that no matter what homosexuality cannot be tolerated. They didn’t SAY kill the gays, which I guess is good enough for the people who object to the phrase “American Taliban.”
Also, how many wars did we start with in the MidEast with our born again President? Let’s talk Blackwater/XE or the shrill evangelical nature of our Air Force. They only like to paint “Crusades” on their artillery. Maybe we can have a war with Iran too.
But whatever comes out of all those different political issues, the one thing that must not be concluded is that there are violent American Christians to be afraid of.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Mumphrey:
***well-timed pause…***
Mnemosyne
@Onkel Bob:
Frau Hauser’s ancestors survived the Holocaust and moved to Israel in its wake. Still want to presume to lecture her about the rise of the Nazis?
Suffern ACE
@Cacti:
I never thought Christianity was really all that hard to grasp on that point.
Rommie
I have to know how many points Baby Jeebus is getting before I can place my bet, er, as they say, if Gambling was legal. I’d love to see Fox go after gambling and spincrashburn.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Mark S.:
He wouldn’t have that problem come April every year either…
slag
@General Stuck: LOL!
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Mnemosyne: Certainly not. I just don’t think that one precludes the other. Because the extreme Christians are not as bad doesn’t mean they aren’t bad. But of course, I didn’t see this as a conflict between her issues and mine.
But if that’s how it has to be, then fine. I will never ever ever complain about how extreme American Christians are, even if I never ever ever have my full civil rights and have to listen to the radio station that is 2 miles from my house talk about how awesome it is that Muslims kill gays.
Thank you Nazis! Now no one ever gets to complain about anything again except for Jews.
ETA: Obviously I don’t listen to that station. But it is 2 miles from my house and it frequently features a guy who thinks gays should be killed. It’s the metro area’s conservative and religious FM stations in the same building.
ETA2: Oh and it might behoove people to consider that the Nazis didn’t exist from the beginning of time. Do we want to look for signs and prevent that shit? Or do we think we are so special we can’t go that route? Objection over this seems tantamount to American Exceptionalism. No, we’d rather yell at people for bringing it up because we dislike exaggeration and inapt analogies.
jaywillie
oh, yay…the Internets…where we try to out do each other which a lot of vitriolic, hyperbolic nonsense and then watch as the discussion strays from any actual discussion and into an argument about semantics and full of name-calling. This is why we can’t have nice things, because when you cede the argument to a dick-measuring contest of who can say the most snarky, sensationalist thing, you’re not actually making an argument.
God Bless America, where right and left, we’re all just a bunch of over-privileged, loudmouth, obnoxious twats.
Onkel Bob
@PanAmerican: Um no, the game has been played since the inception of the league. Maybe it was first televised in 1967.
asiangrrlMN
@slag: I know this is mushy territory, but I think intent does matter. If we are talking about religious extremity, then the ones who commit horrible acts in the name of god (such as killing doctors who provide abortions), then I would file that under American Extremist Christian. If, however, someone is ginning up a ‘War on Christmas’ for ratings…not so much. Again, still ugly and reprehensible, but in the same league.
As to your question of the Neo-Nazis…that’s a little harder for me. if they self-identify that way, then I would take them at their word. If someone had those views and didn’t actually act on them, I may not label that person as such if he did not self-identify that way. Again, still reprehensible and such, but I do think that terms such as Taliban (or American Christian Extremist. I really think they need to be known for who they are) or Nazi should be use with utmost care.
@Mnemosyne: Well, that may or may not be true. Many queers have been attacked by so-called religious people for being queer. I think it’s kind of a strawman to say, “You can’t say question her viewpoint because she left Israel when she saw the religious violence there.” I would agree that ee knows first-hand how religious violence operates, but not as a minority in Israel.
Maude
@General Stuck:
There is no Peak Stupid.
Onkel Bob
@Mnemosyne: Perhaps mine fought them from both sides scheisserkopf.
Shade Tail
@Mnemosyne:
OK, this is starting to get silly. We’re not allowed to talk about the religious terrorism that *does happen here* simply because someone else has another perspective?
This is not a hypothetical situation. People do get assaulted or killed by religious fanatics here. And the point which has gotten lost in this debate is the plausible claim that these religious fanatics would be much worse and more wide spread if they had any real social or political clout.
The difference between them and the Taliban is not their violent extremism or their intentions, it’s how much they can get away with.
Ailuridae
@Onkel Bob:
Umm fuck you. Umm fuck you. I disagree with her here but to suggest that an uncomfortableness with a wide use of the phrase “American Taliban” makes her a mass murderer is stupid. Where is my waiter Godwin?
Godwin?
Godwin?
Godwin?
Where the fuck is Godwin?
I need my check.
JPL
Long term, propaganda is worse than a terrorist attack.
Back to the original topic….FOX Corp is going to make millions of dollars on Christmas Day by showing Black Swan and other Fox Searchlight movies…
Mnemosyne
@Barb (formerly Gex):
No? You immediately compared her to Andrew Sullivan and made a whole lot of stupid assumptions about why she said what she did. But everyone was so eager to assume she didn’t like the comparison because she was a Christian that they didn’t bother to listen her reasons for not liking the phrase “American Taliban” based on her experiences growing up in the Middle East and her political activism there.
Hopefully once you calm down a little you’ll be able to ask yourself why an Israeli woman who has been writing about politics in the Middle East for 15 years doesn’t like to hear the phrase “Taliban” applied to American Christian extremists. Hint: it’s not going to have anything to do with giving American Christian extremists a free pass.
Citizen Alan
@Mnemosyne:
Well, I’d have thought that someone who came from a region torn by religious violence might have more of an attitude of “never again” and be more concerned about rising religious extremism in her adopted country, instead of wringing her hands at comparing the American religious right to the Taliban because the body count of the former does not yet approach that of the later.
Or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the American Taliban supports a national moratorium on the construction of new mosques (and new community centers falsely described as mosques) but is completely silent on the construction of new synagogues.
asiangrrlMN
@Shade Tail: Co-sign with what you said, too.
@Ailuridae: You. Thank you for making me laugh. Much needed.
@Citizen Alan: That last paragraph was really uncalled for, especially since ee has been a strong advocate of the Palestinians and of Muslims.
Maude
@Onkel Bob:
You forgot the umlaut
Ailuridae
@Suffern ACE:
It isn’t …
M. Bouffant
@Suffern ACE:
Every Xmas. The Lakers’ coach, Phil Jackson (Known as some weird Zen dude, but …) was moaning about playing on Xmas & how it was disrespectful to Xians, & noted that the Lakers had been scheduled every Xmas Day since 1994.
A compromise: Can we agree that, Haley Barbour-style, Dominionist American Xians are to the Taliban as the White Citizens Councils were/are to the KKK?
Mnemosyne
@Shade Tail:
You’re not allowed to claim that someone is a Christian apologist because she’s coming from a completely different perspective than you are. Not to mention that she isn’t even Christian, for chrissakes.
ellaesther could actually have given us a very interesting perspective on the Taliban based on her experience and research and explained why she doesn’t like that phrase, but people were more interested in screaming at her and making accusations than in actually listening to her.
Jody
@asiangrrlMN:
I call them both the American Taliban because the moderates make no effort to condemn the violent ones. Okay, one or two exceptions, but as a whole they all know they’re advancing the same agenda.
Or course, by the time the moderates think the radicals have gone too far, it’ll be too late for the country.
Ailuridae
@asiangrrlMN:
No worries. You were superkind to me last month. I never make people laugh so I am happy I made you laugh.
Apparently, more Nazi jopkes from me.
Jody
@jaywillie:
Yeah, there’s always some contrarian just trying to make themselves look smart. I know I’ve done it a time or two.
Must be human nature. Stupid, stupid human nature.
asiangrrlMN
@M. Bouffant: Yes. I am down with that comparison.
@Jody: Yeah, I can see that point. I still think there has to be a distinction, though, because otherwise we dilute the power of the stronger one.
@Ailuridae: Godwin, FTW!
Maude
@Maude:
And forgot to add it’s kopher.
Also Use Caps on the beginning of nouns.
Viva BrisVegas
I’m just curious as to the connection between Christmas and the rules of Sabbath.
Unless Christmas coincidently falls on a Sunday (or for some on a Saturday), I don’t know of any biblical injunctions that are in place that believers are required to follow.
If someone on FoxNews could just show me the Bible passage that defines Christmas Day as a day of religious observance I would greatly appreciate it.
Until then I’m afraid that I will have to assume that they are full of shit, as usual.
Mnemosyne
@Citizen Alan:
Yes, I’m sure that what she was trying to say is that American Christian extremists aren’t so bad. Have you ever even read her blog? It’s right there in the sidebar.
Go educate yourself about who she is and what she believes and then come back here and tell me that her point about “American Taliban” was the simplistic one that you just put in her mouth.
Wow. I didn’t think you could be any more of an asshole about this, but you managed to outdo yourself. I’m just going to let that hang there so everyone can see it.
Barb (formerly Gex)
The worst sin is an inapt analogy, apparently.
I do want to apologize to ellaesther. This is a hot spot for me (gay atheist) in my home as it was for you in your home. Not to compare the scale. I do not want to conflate the issues as Mnemosyne was correct to call me on.
On the other hand, I can’t get people to stop using the words faggot and gay to mean bad things. You can be offended. But I’ll be damned if you can prevent me from making an analogy. An analogy. They are never exact.
The fear I have of them is every bit as real and as existential as your fear of the Nazis is. Do you know the kind of self hatred it takes and how long you have to live with it before you no longer want to live? I do. I live with that every fucking day.
You are now safe, but in your fear you want to tell me what I can and cannot say. And you seem to have a complete inability to understand that I can be feeling the same depth of fear and anger even if, on the grand scale of the universe, the harms perpetrated on you and yours is greater than on me and mine. And let’s not forget a pink triangle would get you in the chamber pretty damn quickly. And it remains something that can get you killed to this day in almost every country on earth.
Jody
@asiangrrlMN:
Also a good point. I’ll just call them all my usual: “fucking nutjobs”. :)
Mnemosyne
@asiangrrlMN:
The problem is, we never even got to find out what her viewpoint actually is because she got jumped on so fast by people making really stupid assumptions.
It’s possible that we could have heard her viewpoint and why she came to that conclusion and still disagreed with her. But we don’t actually know what she thinks because people were so eager to jump down her throat and put words in her mouth.
Barb (formerly Gex)
To add to the above. Now add to that post that the vocal Christians in this country absolutely celebrate their antigay stance. And it is quite publicly acceptable.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Mnemosyne:I agree, I think that synagogue/mosque comment was too far. That made me cringe when I read it.
slag
@jaywillie: I’m confused. I thought the question of whether or not we can reasonably call people “the American Taliban” was a semantic one. Are you suggesting otherwise? And if so, what kind of question is it?
hildebrand
@Barb (formerly Gex):
You may wish to retract that supposition, unless you are ready to offer some evidence. We nag (appropriately, I might add) at many on this site who eschew proper standards for argumentation, and thus you are not off the hook.
JPL
Isn’t Fox Searchlight owned by News Corp.? Don’t they have lots of movies showing on Christmas Day? Hmmmmmm
The Republic of Stupidity
@JPL:
Strangely enough, Avatar was backed by Rupert too…
And to compound teh crazy, Lord Murdoch is also one of the leading producers of pornography in the world…
Uloborus
@Mnemosyne:
I’m sorry, but that’s a terrible argument. First, appeal to authority fallacy. Second, the experience is just as likely to make her oversensitive to where she thinks the name used to describe a potentially dangerous movement is worth being offended by. Unless she moved from Adghanistan, I don’t think it much applies.
Ella’s OWN argument was much better. The American Christianist right wing at BEST doesn’t care if gays suffer or die, and that’s abominable, but the Taliban are truly a special taste of Hell. They embrace violence and repression on a scale that would make Christianists with a theocracy look like kittens. It’s not that the ‘American Taliban’ aren’t monsters, it’s that the real Taliban are MONSTERS.
I don’t think the naming matters much personally, but her argument’s pretty good.
Midnight Marauder
@Maude:
Actually, this:
makes perfect sense as a response to this rather glaringly nonsensical statement you made:
I am pretty sure that those same Christians are the ones going around shooting doctors providing a legal medical service and blowing up abortion clinics. I am pretty sure a great deal of those same Christians are continuously using violent rhetoric to express their distaste for the current form of government this country provides. And you can say that you aren’t talking about domestic terrorists, but the people who go around assassinating doctors providing a legal medical service they happen to disagree with are, indeed, domestic terrorists. There is no delineating the topic; it’s all encompassed by the same issue.
Dr. George Tiller was assassinated in a methodically executed political statement intended to use violence and fear to curb access to a legal medical procedure.
There’s your realistic description.
asiangrrlMN
@Jody: I’m down with that!
@Mnemosyne: You are doing the same, however, putting words into her mouth. And, the whole conversation became derailed to what ee did or didn’t mean. And, I read your posts to be saying (ETA) extremist Christians aren’t as extreme as the Taliban, even though I know that was not your intent.
@Barb (formerly Gex): It’s the feeling of never being safe. In situations, you have to decide, how do I act? What do I do? When I was in college and realized I was attracted to women as well as men, I decided not to acknowledge it because I didn’t want to deal with the homophobia that would come with it. It’s an erosion on the self to constantly have to gauge when you are safe and when you are not. It’s not easy at all.
Mnemosyne
@Barb (formerly Gex):
If we’re lucky, she’ll write a post on her blog to explain what it is that she finds offensive about the phrase and why so we can evaluate what she thinks and not what we think she thinks.
Or she may just tell us all to go fuck ourselves and try some of that eggnog her neighbors keep pushing on her.
Cat Lady
BTW, Tyrone would totally kick Baby Jeebus’ ass. Also.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@hildebrand: You’re right. Rescinded.
The thing that bothers me is that the rising violence against gays has coincided with the rising and vocal anti-gay stances of *some* Christian sects (and not small: Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, 1/2 the Lutherans, etc.).
However, an antigay stance does not require a Christian belief system. However since a vast majority of Americans are Christian, can we not conclude that a majority of the people who attack gays here are Christian? Either way, a more precise wording or argument is called for on my part.
I do contend that the vocal and politically active Christian groups in this country have been demagoguing gays in dangerous ways.
In my experience, every person who has had a problem with me being gay has had a problem with it for Biblical reasons. But why should my experience of it mean anything?
Mnemosyne
@asiangrrlMN:
That’s definitely not what I meant, and I hope I wasn’t putting words in her mouth. But I really couldn’t stand by and let people accuse ee of being a Christian apologist when she’s pretty much the furthest thing from it.
I probably should have left it alone since she obviously didn’t want to get into it since she deleted her responses and left the thread, but I got pissed off at the accusations being thrown at her.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Barb (formerly Gex): However, I need to stop using the word however, however I can’t seem to stop.
Mnemosyne
@Barb (formerly Gex):
I’m like that with “because.” And most adverbs. I always have to re-read my posts and make sure not to many words end in “ly.”
Mike in NC
Last week the local rag ran a column by Bill O’Reilly in which he basically declared VICTORY! in the ongoing “War On Christmas”, but no doubt he’ll have to qualify that when it comes time to pimp his next whackjob book.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I don’t know why the thread decided to get nasty (that’s mostly rhetorical – some people take things too far), but Emily, seeing what is going on in this country with a certain segment of the religious people in this country, the term American Taliban really does fit. These people have killed gays, blacks, abortion providers, and a guard at a Holocaust museum. And they have done these things not only to actually kill, but to intimidate and to change the way people behave. That is domestic terrorism just like the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Barb (formerly Gex)
I need to not be in these threads whenever people end up talking gay issues. I just can not seem to handle it.
In other news, my therp told me last week she thinks I have PTSD. My sacred cows just aren’t as sacred as those of the people who really count though.
Maude
@Midnight Marauder:
Wrong.
Terrorists are terrorists. It doesn’t matter what brand they are.
Bubblegum Tate
@BGinCHI:
They don’t like Steve Nash at all–he’s a DFH.
alwhite
I think it may be unfair to lump FAUX News in with the Taliban. The Taliban actually believes that their Great Invisible Sky Muffin(GISM) tells them that these things must be done to appease its bottomless ego. FAUX News, while professing a deep and abiding love of their own GISM does not believe a word of it for even a second. But they know its good for business.
But don’t think for a minute that the Christian Talib of the US would not gladly institute the same sorts of policies as their Muslim cousins. They have demonstrated a hatred of women well beyond the issue of abortion and a fealty to a twisted selection of the worst of the Old Testament.
The only difference in the two is the power to make it happen, the appellation fits.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@asiangrrlMN: Self? What’s that?
Mnemosyne
@Barb (formerly Gex):
Ugh. That’s a tough thing to deal with, but it really helps to have a name to put to things. I just got officially diagnosed with ADD and it’s simultaneously frustrating (why did I get stuck with a broken brain?) and a relief (well, at least now I know why I do things).
I do think it’s true that your sacred cows don’t get the same respect as the cows that have been around longer, but we’re all working on it together. We’ll get there.
Maude
@Barb (formerly Gex):
I wasn’t talking at all about gay issues. I hope you don’t think I was at all saying that any form of violence toward any group is okay.
I don’t have a word for the horrific non humans that attack and kill gay people. I know I’m saying this badly.
You should talk this up. People can learn a lot from you.
Midnight Marauder
@Maude:
Okay, fine. But did you not just previous write that “The Christians who don’t like any changes and have mythical beliefs in how the US is supposed to be like are not violent extremists”? I’m curious, how do those two positions reconcile with each other? Fundamentalists Christians are terrorists, but can’t be classified as on par with groups like the Taliban, who share a similar vision for iron-clad religious control of society and government?
It also seems somewhat incongruous to now argue that “it doesn’t matter what brand they are,” when that appears to be a featured element of the conversation taking place in this thread. I mean, you also wrote this “The White Supremists are groups and not government entities,” which entirely overlooks the massive period of time in this country when all government entities were essentially organs of white supremacy. They may not be government entities now, but they are certainly well represented in all branches of the government (I’m looking at people like you, Rep. Steve King from Iowa).
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Maude: Well, yes. If you exclude the way the majority American Christians treat gays, then they don’t really seem all that hate-filled or violent. However, if you excluded gays and women, then the Taliban might not seem all that bad either.
And of course, once you discount that pesky gay issue thing, it is easy to make the claim that extreme Christians in this country aren’t violent.
Fuck. Gay people are so goddamn screwed if this is how other people think about politics. Everything in its own separate box and if it doesn’t affect the boxes you care about it isn’t a goddamn problem.
Villago Delenda Est
Note that those who inspired the murder of Dr. George Tiller did so in the hope that other doctors providing legal medical services for women would be dissuaded from doing so by that example.
This is a TEXTBOOK example of “terrorism”.
They are open about what they are doing. They want to intimidate other doctors into getting out of the business of providing abortions, under any circumstance, to include preserving the life of the woman herself.
Check out this link for an example of this mentality in action.
Barb (formerly Gex)
@Mnemosyne: Of this, I am doubtful. There will never be a big demographic bloom of gays. But there are no shortage of religious faiths and power hungry charlatans who can benefit from antigay sentiment. And since there are natural inclinations to have a preference, it will always be easy to get people to think the other is unnatural and wrong. We still can’t get people to agree that gay is a thing and not a deviant god-defying behavior. While Christians eventually came to the realization that black people are born that way and thus deserve rights as human beings (well most of them) they still deny that to gays. In 20-fucking-10.
Citizen Alan
@Barb (formerly Gex):
And having cooled down, I agree. I did cross the line, and I apologize to everyone, especially Ella.
I’d been working on a much longer apology post that explained my fears about the Religious Right, about where I’m afraid this country is going, and about exactly why I think “American Taliban” is the best analogy we have at the moment for the enemies in our midst. But it was long and rambling, and I’m tired of feeling like Kevin McCarthy at the end of Invasion of the Bodysnatchers, yelling insanely at the audience because he’s the only one who sees the end of the world. So, I’m calling it a night.
Again, I apologize to Ella and to anyone else I offended with that last remark.
Barb (formerly Gex)
Listen, all I know is this.
10 years ago, I had zero problems with Christianity. None. I was always an atheist, but I never, ever thought about Christianity. Almost everyone I know is Christian. Almost everyone I love is Christian.
But in these 10 years, it has gotten so the very word “Christian” triggers a very strong emotional response in me. I don’t think that is on me. I think that is all the proof I need that Christianity in this country has become a greater and greater threat to me. I was happy to coexist, and I’d be happy to coexist. But that is not what I am hearing. And I went from not really hearing those messages to seeing most of the country come to agreement politically on those messages.
Goddamn it! Christians in both parties banned SSM in 30 states via Constitution. And we can’t call that Taliban like?
I didn’t make myself scared of Christians. I can’t help but think that that means there is a problem in the US with Christianity even now.
tomvox1
@John Cole:
This a million. If they could do Taliban shit, they surely would.
Merry Xmas, all…or not, as you wish. All’s I have to say is: NOG!*
*(no, not this Nog, you dorks–this one!)
Maude
@Midnight Marauder:
The difference now with jerks like Steve King is that it is illegal to kill non white and female people in the US. I am tired so bear with me.
The Christian believers I am talking about are those who go to church, have Sunday dinner and don’t hurt anyone. They see the country as they want to. It is mythical because the country isn’t an ideal anything. Some may believe that God smiles on this country. Myths can be very comforting.
The changes scare them, but they aren’t the ones who become violent. Some of the technological changes can be scary.
Mythical beliefs aren’t always bad.
Is the phrase ‘out of many, one’ a myth of the US?
The Home of the Brave and the Land of the Free. Myth, I think.
Hardcore ideology that promotes hatred, for lack of a better word and approves violence and murder toward those they consider enemies are dangerous no matter what country they live in. Those are what I mean by terrorists.
I don’t care why someone murders innocent people through terroism. They are awful criminals.
Maude
@Barb (formerly Gex):
I call them haters and terrorists.
When they put themselves under the banner of being Christian that is disgusting.
I am agnostic and very religious people make me very nervous.
I don’t want the religious right to have power. They dehumanize the rest of us. They are capable of cruelty.
I think they approve of the killings and attacks on “non believers” and can’t say so out loud.
I wish I could say things better tonight.
Please keep posting here. What you have to say is so valuable.
Earl Butz
@Barb (formerly Gex): Shit, I’ll buy that, and would bet that every out-of-the-closet gay person has been assaulted. Every one. By a self-professed Christian doing it because they thought that is what God commands.
Why would I assert this? Well, every single member of my family has been violently assaulted with weaponry for the far less heinous crime of being an atheist.
I don’t even live in one of the backwards Red States of Fucktarida. I live in freaking Southern California.
I’m gobsmacked at you idiots having a debate on the appropriateness of using the term “American Taliban”. When you beat an eight-year old boy into the hospital, as happened to my little brother, because he had the stupidity to say in a public elementary school that he thinks there is no God, the followers of your religion are no different than the goddamned Taliban. End of discussion.
Cerberus
Oi, this fight.
Okay, let’s see what it looks like when our AMERICAN EVANGELICALS have the full press and advantage that comes with a third world nation in order to make their evil wills manifest.
Ah.
And for further points around the world, just take a look at this tag.
Not to mention the legalized terrorism against abortion providers and women, the massive hate crime slaughter of transgendered people and LGBT in general, and let’s also note the various mosque bombings and so on.
The difference between the Taliban and whatever we call our equivalent force is one of power. The Taliban have control over several third world nations with the corresponding lack of progress with regards to human rights. Hence, their atrocities get more airtime.
But our demons aren’t “better”. In fact, when allowed any avenue of power, they seem just as willing to engage in comic-book supervillain shit. Widespread terrorism of marginalized groups, striving to retain the legality of the terrorism, using violence to try and chase out rival religious groups and prevent acceptance of marginalized groups, encouraging violence against marginalized groups, pushing for the continuing effective legality of rape, and so on.
They have demonstrated as such in the third world and second world nations they control. See Uganda, see Serbia, see the police reactions in Russia to gay pride parades, see a lot of small towns around this country.
And the marginalized groups who are their targets have a hard time seeing the stark difference that just must exist between these two groups. Atheist teachers who are literally sent packing out of their communities on threat of death for teaching the “wrong things”. Blacks carefully weeded out of certain communities under hail of gunfire if they cross into the “wrong side of town”, the left behind partner of a Planned Parenthood volunteer who picked the wrong day to go in, the queer who walked without fear down the wrong street.
And that’s before we get into the real aptness of the metaphor.
Which is that our group of deranged Christianists want exactly the same political goals of the Taliban, just with their own dominant religion placed on the top of the heap. Same views toward gays, women, racial minorities, religious minorities, moderate “same religion” types, and many of the same views with regards to what should happen to these groups.
If given the opportunity, they seem gleeful about the idea of instituting the same widespread death.
Oh, yeah, and they are doing the “bad stuff”. The Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay offenses and the like stemmed initially from Christianist desires with regards to the Middle East and corresponding views of what to do with the relative religious minority (in power) known as the muslims.
So yeah, the only difference is that the oppression at home is the separation of a first world nation and a third world one.
Sorry if that makes me hesitant about not calling the fucking spade a spade.
Especially since I am one of those in the direct target demographics for these fuckers.
JPL
When Bill and Fox started the war on Christmas crap, I tried to explain to a friend why I found it offensive. I loved the time between Thanksgiving and New Years. It was like a month and a half of holidays and good will. It encompassed not only Christian holidays, Jewish holidays and the soltice it was truly a season and spirit of good will.
Thanks Bill and Fox for killing my beliefs.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Maude: Thank you & I couldn’t agree more. What Maude said.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@PurpleGirl: Thank you for saying so! One is trying. The only time I felt genuinely gracious today was when I heard that there will be snow and 30 degree weather starting tomorrow, through Sunday, and I just bust out smiling, thinking how happy the kids will be with that.
Cerberus
@Earl Butz:
This too.
Near the bones breaking level, the difference just seems a little… subtle.
Hard too to remain objective about word choice when said actions of violent hegemony are occurring to one’s self and one’s close friends and family.
In my city, last year, a woman was shot in cold-blood for being a trans woman and being an activist in support of better laws for transgendered people.
Some godbot shot her in her room because that threatened the hegemony he benefitted from.
This story is not uncommon, this threat is implicitly over my head if and when I argue for my basic humanity in public. When I walk in public “where their kids can see me”. And so on.
Fuck the American Taliban.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Mnemosyne: I think this isn’t fully in keeping with this blogs policies, but:
:)
@fasteddie9318: I see what you’re saying, I do, but that’s too many “if”s for me. Too much prophesy, if you will, not enough facts on the ground. I honestly just think of the people who have to live with the Taliban Taliban every time the term “American Taliban” comes up, and I can’t imagine what they would make of us. It’s beyond me.
(And let me clarify again: I have no problem calling those particular Christians any number of really harsh names, and their terrorists are exactly that: Terrorists).
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I have no problem calling it terrorism. Just (again) to be clear. None. Because it is.
Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Oh, & I would suggest that the reason it went nasty is because I instantly argued a point that most people here already agree on.
I genuinely apologize, because one of the things I always say is that it’s important to know one’s audience. If you don’t want to get into a nasty fight, don’t yell “I disagree with you entirely!” in a crowded movie theater.
Or something to that effect.
Cerberus
Also, if we are being “exact”?
Then the Taliban, Christian terrorists, and so on…
Are what would be called violent defenders of religious hegemony.
And that’s why they seem so fucking similar, because outside success, ability, scope, and exact techniques used, they are beneficiaries of a hegemonic system who use it to dominate “outsiders” and enforce a conformity onto the nation they reside in along religious lines.
Earl Butz
@Cerberus: Hey, it was just some teeth. That, and I shit my pants when getting beaten by a gang of my peers. I don’t know why I get so bent out of shape when people tell me there’s no religious extremist violence in America.
The worst part really is when you shit your pants. They know they put the fear into you then. You can’t put up a brave front when the stench of your own terror can be smelled by everyone.
But hey, there’s no religious extremist violence in America, so I’ll just sit down and shut up.
Cerberus
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
I suspect that Afghanis would have very interesting answers with regards to their responses about the Taliban and the American Christian forces that directed the Army that blows up their weddings and spirits their Uncle Ahmed in “extraordinary rendition”.
I actually would be interested in the answer about that. I suspect we’d get an interesting spattering that would show that violent hegemony sucks whether it prays to Allah or Jebus.
Viva BrisVegas
@Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther:
If you don’t mind me saying, I think your argument with regards to “American Taliban” rests on the quantity of intolerance rather than the quality.
I rather suspect that the most extreme beliefs of the real Taliban are not shared by a majority of the population that they rule (when they do). But what can you do against a secular authority that acts in the name of a minority religious principle when they have all the best guns?
In other words, removed from restraint, how different would the American Taliban be from the real thing?
Mnemosyne
@Barb (formerly Gex):
I don’t mean “we” as in gay people, because I’m not gay. I mean “we” as Americans. Yes, there’s a lot of bad things out there to get depressed about, but here’s a weird thought: we actually hear about these things now. Twenty or even ten years ago, if a teenager killed him/herself because they were gay, it was hushed up and no one spoke about it. Now it goes on the cover of People magazine as a terrible tragedy. Portia di Rossi can have a big glossy spread in US talking about her wonderful wife Ellen and no one blinks an eye.
That’s one of the reasons it’s particularly ugly right now: the ones in power are losing this battle, and they don’t like it one bit, so they’re doing everything they can to hold back the tide. But there’s only so much you can do to hold back history.
Ruckus
@Mumphrey:
Just came back with Blues Bros to watch over the weekend.
I am not trying to tell @Emily L. Hauser/ellaesther: that she’s wrong or doesn’t know what she’s talking about. I’m just saying I don’t agree with her. I think you do have to identify the religious extremists in this country in some manner and the American Taliban does fit. As others up thread have noted trying to be nice to people who would just as soon see you die as not for some bullshit religious reasons is not only a waste of time, it is counter productive. Not every or even most christians, jews and muslims are extremists but there are sub groups of all of them that are. We should call them out for what they are, extremists who want you to join them if you qualify, or die. It’s hard to protect one’s self from your enemies if you don’t know who they are.
Cerberus
@Mnemosyne:
That is true.
And while I and others are painting a bleak picture (because yeah, there’s still a lot that sucks), it is true what the new ad campaign is saying:
It gets better. It has been getting better.
It’s also why I disagree with Emily.
It’s getting better because we are a developed nation with a strong activist community pushing us out of our malaise and helping get things better and for a good while now, the people pushing for not only the bad status quo, but outright regression and using tactics of terrorism and genocide to do so, are constantly pointing to the unique barbarism possible in third world nations (that are visible thanks to the evolution of global media and those countries and our country’s activist’s work making it visible) to basically say, hey ours can’t even be remotely comparable.
And well…
They have the same goals, many of the same tactics, and when allowed the space and opportunity, do engage in many of the same big-scope horrors.
I’m not saying Emily is trying to minimize said fuckwads in the same way as the “Feminists should stop complaining about rape because Afghani girls got acid thrown in their faces” types have been.
I’m merely saying that the similarities of the tactics, intention, and choices of targets is too similar to justify refraining from making natural analogies and points regarding to the similarities of violent hegemonies.
Ruckus
@asiangrrlMN:
It’s an erosion on the self to constantly have to gauge when you are safe and when you are not. It’s not easy at all.
Wow, just wow. This is a major aspect of being a victim of bigotry of any type. Very well stated.
Jack
Seriously though, why does the players’ union go for all this work on holidays? Is the extra money that much?
BGinCHI
@Bubblegum Tate: Shit. I can’t get anything right.
He does kind of have Jesus hair though. But so did Jim Morrison.
metalgirl
I know I’m way-late to this thread (so nobody will see this) but you have no business criticizing the American Taliban book until you have read it. I bought it because I was skeptical and thought it was “over the top”. The book is very well written and researched and makes its case convincingly. Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, which ever way you roll.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
I may disagree with ee on this issue but I think it is great that you have defended her. Some here have made statements that go way over the line and should be called out.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
This exactly why I feel we need to name and call out not only the behavior but also the bullshit of groups that want to control your behavior for their own selfish reasons, when your behavior or given characteristics don’t affect them in any way.
AAA Bonds
You are really insulting the Taliban.
If there were a war on Christmas and they were waging it, it would be with RPGs and roadside bombs and inaccurate small arms, and they would be winning.
Viva BrisVegas
@Mnemosyne:
There are of course are people who do more than just blink an eye. For one thing there’s at least 20-30 US senators who seethe. They matter.
AAA Bonds
Drive a truck full of fertilizer up to a Wal-Mart and blammo. That’s a war on Christmas. Hit some Buddha statues, call it a day.
aimai
@freelancer:
We’ve actually seen what they can do in the breakaway polygamist mormon colonies. There rape, incest, religious fundamentalism, the exiling of junior males, polygamy, failure to educate women all go hand in hand with gun worship, right wing politics, and criminal abuse of federal largesse. Calling the right wing the “American Taliban” isn’t the same as calling Feminists “Feminazis.” The right wing in this country has moved towards the embrace of militias and religious terrorists–the killer of Dr. Tiller, the Atlanta Bomber–were all explicitly embraced by the right when it was safe to do so.
aimai
Lurker
@Barb (formerly Gex):
I think the use of Christ as a political prop in the past 10 years hurt Christianity for the long run. “War on Christmas,” anti-gay legislation (including Prop 8), the stem cell research ban, school boards trying to force “intelligent design” into curriculum, the Bush appointee who tried to impose intelligent design talk on NASA, that “Jesus Camp” lady imploring children to revere a cardboard cut-out of George W. Bush, Bush claiming God told him to invade Iraq, and churches telling members to vote a certain way come to mind.
Dragging Christ’s name through the political mud may yield some short-term political victories, but I think it creates a backlash against Christianity in the long run.
les
@Comrade Dread:
Ever hear of Bill Donovan? And Fox is in the business of selling air time; you think nobody is watching/agreeing? Fer fuck’s sake, google is your friend.
les
@hildebrand:
Are you prepared to offer a non-religious basis for violence against gays? I’m not aware of any; some generic “ick factor” doesn’t generally give rise to murder.
Pongo
@Viva BrisVegas: Absolutely. The difference is qualitative. Right-wingers don’t act exactly like the Taliban in this country only because they are prevented from doing it at the moment by a system of laws designed to do just that–laws they are doing everything in their power to change so that they can dictate morality to the west just like the Taliban does in parts of the east. Remove the legal constraints and these ‘freedom’ lovers would gleefully take away any freedom that doesn’t match with their narrow, Biblically-defined and often horribly skewed sense of morality.
Pongo
The thing that I don’t get with this ‘happy holidays’ outrage BS is just the denial of the practicality of it. Even the most unreasonable Christianist must realize there are a raft of holidays that happen between mid-November and the new year. If they insist on singling out only one, wouldn’t that mean we technically should spell out each one just be sure we aren’t offending anyone. Think how awkward it would be to have to say, “Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Habari Gani and best wishes for the new year, etc.” every time you see someone. ‘Happy holidays’ is simply a shorthand way of covering all of them that has been in use for decades. The arrogance of assuming that there are no other holidays meriting public acknowledgment at this time of year is astounding. It’s an effort to minimize all faiths but their own and it’s doubly ridiculous given what is actually being celebrated at Christmas: Pagan traditions adopted by the church to get non-believers on board and the winter solstice celebration of the sun (switched to ‘the son’ by clever ancient marketing folks) as the birthdate of Christ, which it clearly isn’t. As a secular tradition that brings families together, Christmas is a wonderful time of year. But to pretend the ‘Big Lie’ that informs the religious roots of Christmas is somehow sacred is a little creepy, frankly. Getting all sanctimonious about the religious significance of a celebration that started out as a purposeful lie and evolved into a glutton’s paradise of conspicuous consumption is just plain silly.
gene108
Hehehehe…
On Tuesday I was really wanting to get into the Christmas spirit (I love Christmas, though I’m not Christian, people usually seem a bit happier and more good hearted), so when I went to the bank to deposit a couple of checks, I asked the bank teller if she was all set for Christmas and the holidays…
She gave me a funny, disappointed, look that was told she didn’t celebrate Christmas, so I mentioned New Years and she perked up “yeah, New Years that’s it”.
Oh well, this Christmas I get the full Jewish version, since I’m going to my cousin, who married a Jewish lady. My brothers with his in-laws and my mom’s in India.
I do wonder how all the anti-Happy Holidays folks reconcile their pro-Israel stance, with the fact Jews really don’t care to celebrate Christmas and prefer Happy Holidays to Merry Christmas.
P.S. If I really wanted to go full bore crazy about the War on Christmas, I’d start picking on Brits and Aussies, who come to the U.S. and still say Happy Christmas and bitch about how they aren’t assimilating by not adopting Merry Christmas.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
Time for this atheist’s annual reminder of what Christianity actually teaches.
The New Testament makes clear that the believer should not be overly concerned with what’s going on in the world of men, they’re going to do what they’re going to do. The believer is instructed to quietly go about making his own life right with God. In fact, Jesus goes so far as to say that when you are persecuted for your beliefs you are especially blessed as a result. All of this makes sense when you consider that early Christians thought that Christ would imminently return and end all this worldly nonsense.
The “War on Christmas” and “War on Christianity” memes are not just the delusional whines of a subgroup of Americans, they entail a fundamental misunderstanding of and contempt for the history and teachings of Christianity.
Besides, somebody should tell these clowns that the etymology of “happy holidays” contains an explicit recognition of the religious significance of this time of the year.
Happy secular days everybody, and if you’re serious about recognizing Christmass make sure you attend a Catholic ceremony.
Cain
@freelancer:
Fucking shameless. There is no such thing as a “Hindu fundamentalist” which would essentially mean you’d be some kind of recluse farting in the mountains. No these are culture warriors. They are afraid of anything that they perceive to challenge Hindu dominance. This is why for instance the Indian govt always is afraid to release the census. As it will always lead to some kind of blood bath between Indians and Muslims.
That said, I can understand Hindu disgust with proselytizing religions like Christianity (and maybe Islam, but I’ve never heard of a muslim proselytizing) which actively convert people. I’ve met people like that. So I’m always a little turned off if I hear about missionaries coming over. If you’re going to help, great.. but respect the religion that is already there, please.
Now one could argue why should I care, since I’m not exactly religious. I think it’s the fact that I do like the religion at its core, but more importantly the cultural trappings surrounding it that I would hate to see it be replaced with something else. There is really only one homeland for Hindus where they can practice both the wierd and the profound practices as they see fit. Secondly, I’m human, there are many things that seem non-intuitive. :-) Heart over mind perhaps?
But murder and harassment is by those who have no education… Uncouth brutes. They can go fuck themselves. They’ll be after brahmans like me, next.
cain
Cain
@Jody:
The way to argue that is say that men are taking judgement away from God’s hands and into theres. That is clearly a sin. One should ask them who they are to stand in judgment of sinners?
cain
jim
Conscientious Objector Status: I give out Xmas cards from time to time, & sincerely wish folks a Merry Xmas – but I don’t celebrate it myself.
On that day I’m in either a good mood or a vile one, just like any other day … but I’m mellow throughout the preceding weeks, while I watch everyone else lose their collective shit as if there were suddenly huge doses of heavy-duty drugs dumped in the water supply.
Christian fundamentalists may envy or even try to emulate the Taliban, but they lack either the discipline or the radical asceticism to ever be mistaken for them, not to mention the truly berserk level of self-sacrifice most of the rank-&-file members of the Taliban consider mandatory. They hate a lot of the same people & things, but their influence comes from very different cultures.
I think the phrase “American Taliban” is dangerously misleading: the Taliban has virtually no chance whatsoever of either building or getting hold of even one small nuclear weapon, let alone being able to maintain its viability over time or put it on an ICBM. Christian fundamentalists are close enough to THOUSANDS of ICBMs to taste it, & many of them have made no secret of their passionate desire to see Armageddon happen in their lifetimes … even if they have to give it a little helping hand.
Halle-Ding-Dang-Doodley-Lujah!
TheF79
Would the KKK be the closest US analogy to the actual Taliban? Discuss.
Kimber Studivant
The multiplayer was about as choppy and horrible as world at wars. so really there is zero reason to buy this game. way to take an awesome franchise and throw in the toilet at McDonalds. I personally am done with the Call of Duty games (minus MW2 since it ROCKS!) after playing this. All the talent was obviously from Infinity Wards original team. im going to go back to staring at the wall since its more worth while than Black Ops