Brendan Skwire reports on a ridiculous exchange he had with Bob Casey’s office. Read the whole thing, here’s a sample:
I was taken aback by the statement (that the wealthy create jobs, so they deserve a tax cut) given to me by a young woman named Maddy, who had no response when I asked her “why does Pennsylvania have 10% unemployment if tax cuts for the rich work so well? Why are we in an economic crisis that’s been described as the worst since the Great Depression? Bush’s job creation record, which was predicated on tax cuts stimulating the economy was the worst since the 1940s.”
Maddy told me that she didn’t want to argue about it. “You don’t want to argue?” I asked. “Then why do you work in politics?”
I hate to pick on some hapless Senate staffer, but this is typical to me of today’s political climate: shut up and accept whatever policies our Galtian overlords convinced David Gergen to support.
Zam
Damn that is my first moderation ever. Fucking S-word
SpotWeld
Can we add “Because… shut up, that’s why” to the lexicon?
SectarianSofa
The tag has it right. When the arguments hit too close to home, go Galt.
Zifnab
Why? Because they’re political drones, programmed simply to regurgitate whatever the Senator Queen Bee feeds them? Or because they’re politically connected children of the rich and influential, who probably absorbed this bullshit from whatever brain-damaging breast milk formula they sucked at as a child?
Casey tossed the girl out to vomit up stock answers because he doesn’t give a shit about good policy. The bill’s on the table. Casey voted “Yes”. Now the only thing he knows how to do is defend it so he can get reelected in 2012.
No one here gets any pity from me.
SectarianSofa
@Zam:
You referred to a fleshy poniard? No wonder you were moderated. Mixed company and all.
Michael
To be very fair, most (if not all) people who answer phones in Congressional offices are interns, not full-time staffers.
As a former Congressional intern myself, I was instructed never to discuss policy. Interns simply do not have a right to express their opinions; most do not even know their Member’s position on the issues. My instructions were simply to note what the constituent said over the phone, so we could send them a response via letter. Arguing about policy was expressly forbidden. If Maddy’s transgression is ever discovered, I wouldn’t be surprised to see her barred from the phones for the remainder of her internship.
It doesn’t excuse what Maddy supposedly said, but it shouldn’t be taken as evidence of Senator Casey’s stand on the issue.
geg6
Well, as someone who HATES, HATES, HATES this bill, let me offer what Senator Casey actually said about his support for the bill and not what some low level staffer who obviously knows very little about anything (but who sounds like all my neighbors, by the way; I’m convinced that “Maddy” is from Beaver County).
http://casey.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/?id=6c09aea6-bf79-4bd1-bfe6-a8168445b871
Casey is simply a centrist and I never expected him to fight this bill. But he actually makes a decent defense of it if you take his rationalizations about PA jobs, his actual introduction of a stand-alone unemployment extension, and his typical centrist stances into account.
I just can’t hate this guy the way I hated his dad, though.
Zam
Ok reprint
It is obviously the uncertainty caused by a black soci@list that has created this situation. Uncertainty is the only thing more powerful than tax cuts.
wenchacha
Geeez, that answer is so simple. The Bush tax cuts did their job during the oughts. Now they need even more cuts in order to create more jobs that have been lost due to crazed environmentalists and Obamacare, TARP, the stimulus, and anything else that has happened since the White House has been occupied by a
black manDemocrat.FlipYrWhig
@Zifnab: Are we sure that this is Bob Casey’s view? Or is the staffer just making up her own answers to get angry people off the phone?
Personally, I hate the “wealthy create jobs” idea, because it seems to imagine that rich people are engaging their _noblesse oblige_ and taking on the pleasantest-looking peasant children as valets and scullery maids. If already-rich people want to create jobs, maybe they should do it with the _first_ $250K, rather than hemming and hawing and scraping their tender little feet on the ground until they can put to proper use dollars $250,001 and up.
Culture of Truth
“why does Pennsylvania have 10% unemployment if tax cuts for the rich work so well?”
Not enough tax cuts.
Hawes
Maddy was either
A) the receptionist
B) a college intern
C) someone who wandered past the office when the phone was ringing
I’m guessing Maddy is not Casey’s Legislative Assistant on tax policy.
If she is…
Alwhite
Brendan calling often has great conversations with the drones on the phones at elected reps offices.
I have used his style several times when calling Senator Klobuchar’s office because they, like the empty suit they service, have no idea what they are talking about. But I don’t have his patients & when they start lying to me I lose my sense of humor.
Really, it isn’t that had but the staff is often as isolated and DC-centric as their bosses.
Stillwater
And when unemployment goes down because of the rich-people’s job-creating generosity, we can cut taxes even more for them, to create even more jobs, and on and on till the rich are paying no taxes and everyone’s working a high-paying job they love!! Win-win!
azlib
The “Wealthy Create Jobs” meme is out there because the Republicans hammered the meme home over the past 30 years. Actual facts mean nothing to the charlatans who deceived the American People into believing it.
former ohio
remember folks, SUPPLY CREATES DEMAND and has ever since Ronald Reagan.
The Moar You Know
Somebody really needs to feed her the “shut up, that’s why” line so she’ll be able to
abusecommunicate more efficiently with Casey’s constituents.Riggsveda
I hate John Shadegg.
former ohio
@azlib:
And the sad part is Economics 101 says the EXACT OPPOSITE of this. Econ 101 says, “If there is a demand, someone will get a supply to them”.
Couple this with the GOP being the “party of the market”, and the cognitive dissonance makes a sane person’s head explode.
Like mine.
geg6
@FlipYrWhig:
Please see #6.
IMHO, it’s the idiot staffer’s point of view, not Casey’s necessarily. And far be it from me to defend this bill or anything having to do with it, but I have some sort of mental defect that has led me to have an inexplicable inability to NOT hate Bob Casey, Jr. with the fiery hate I had for his father.
SectarianSofa
Ugh. One of the banner ads is selling Dinesh D’souza’s latest
psychotic projectionbook. Yeah, the roots of Obama’s rage. I’m sure he’ll clear that one up. Probably doesn’t have anything to do with angry black men. Probably about Constitutional matters, or frustration with congressional stalemates. Oh, wait! It has ‘Roots’ in the title! What a funny coincidence!Culture of Truth
I want to see a Lampoon cover saying “Create Jobs or We Will Shoot This BMW”
geg6
@Hawes:
I agree with your assessment.
change
So how’s everybody enjoying all that global warming?
I had to even scrape two inches of global warming off my car windshield this morning, and wear extra layers to protect myself from all the warming.
freelancer
@SpotWeld:
It exists, under S for “Shut up, that’s why!”
@Zam:
try sociaiist, but capitalize the second i. SociaIist. Ta-da!
Omnes Omnibus
@SectarianSofa: Roots? Oh, because he’s black. I get it. Ha ha. Ever so clever.
danimal
Pick on the lowly Senate aide. They’re supposed to know what’s going on; it’s their job, after all. Argue using civility, of course, but argue away. They need to hear it. If they get a lot of arguments, you can be sure they’ll report that to the boss.
RobertB
@Change – Didn’t you see _The Day After Tomorrow_ ? This is just Phase 1 of the giant ice hurricanes.
SectarianSofa
@change:
You’re a bigger moron than I thought. Congratulations, I guess.
Jewish Steel
I quote commenter dogwood from last night. Obviously, he was making a broader point but I think it specifically applies here too:
Of course tax cuts stimulate the economy. I’ve heard it so many times, from so many quarters, for so long it must be true.
SectarianSofa
@SectarianSofa:
“Oh no, the frost giants are winning!”
licensed to kill time
All that tinfoil wrapped around change’s head serves a dual purpose: keeps the stupid in and the global warming out.
SectarianSofa
@former ohio:
Doesn’t the Austrian School of economics say that everything you know about economics is wrong, because Shut Up, That’s Why?
freelancer
@change:
OMG, call Sean Hannity! It snowed in North America in December! HOAX!
Nevermind that, globally, 2010 is the warmest year on record. Ever.
Weather isn’t climate. It sometimes rains in Phoenix, doesn’t mean that Arizona isn’t a fucking desert, moran.
The Grand Panjandrum
What @Hawes said.
I’d like to have a little more information before I jump on someone who might turn out to be a college intern. Mr Skwire could well be a fucking prick and ended up picking on a receptionist or college intern.
DougJ can the person who answer’s the Dept phone at your place rattle off a quick proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus? Know what I’m saying?
SectarianSofa
@licensed to kill time:
Good point. I need to recommend that to some of my, er, colleagues.
geg6
@change:
Weather is not climate. How many times do you idiots have to be told this?
Brachiator
@change:
Are you a professional idiot or just an amateur playing above his usual level?
Get out your dictionary. Look up “weather.” Then look up “climate.” Write down the definitions and then have someone with a brain explain the difference to you.
Hope this helps you.
Culture of Truth
Republicans also understand people love tax cuts, big spending, and attacking the poor and other underrepresented people.
cermet
@FlipYrWhig: The rich create jobs? Like hell – all those worthless MF’ers do is use their money to exploit workers so these sad sacks can make these worthless f’ers even more money and when these f’ers have used up the worker at as little wage as they can get away with, or can find a lower cost worker, these f’ers will quickly kill the job, or sell the company and put the worker(s) on the trash heap. Those asswipes don’t do shit for anyone but themselves.
jayjaybear
@SectarianSofa: D’Souza is the most ironic racist outside a Dave Chappelle “Clayton Bigsby” sketch.
Omnes Omnibus
@freelancer:
It, however, never rains in southern California.
jayjaybear
“The rich create jobs”.
Yeah. In China.
change
I’ll remember “weather is not climate” the next time there’s a major hurricane (in the ATLANTIC! in AUGUST!) and Algore uses it as a chance to tell us all that global warming is happening!!!!
Man-made warming may or may not be happening, but I find it very funny how those on the left treat it like religion–it has its God, its prophets, original sin, holy texts, and even even indulgences (‘carbon credits’). To top it all off, much like the fanatically religious, AGW believers can’t even take a joke (see above) without being terribly “offended”.
cermet
@Brachiator: People like that don’t have the brains to understand an idea that doesn’t aggree with their current faith based or hear-say based beliefs – lost cause.
Jeff Darcy
This one drives me nuts, too. Everyone starts blathering about more money in the hands of the wealthy translating into more jobs, I want to ask what evidence they have. You need only two things to create a job: work to do and someone willing to do it. Neither of those necessarily have anything to do with the already wealthy, who would just as soon spend their money overseas. If you want to create jobs, give people an incentive to work for a company that might be new and small and uncertain because those are the places where most new jobs are created despite all the failures. Use tax policy to incentivize the employees, not the employers.
The Other Chuck
@geg6:
Til you realize that they’re not talking in good faith and their sole purpose is to create a negative contribution for the purpose of pissing off libruls. Never mind the future of global civilization when the water starts running out.
The fact that we now have a party in power that bases its policy on being internet trolls makes me think that maybe the planet could use quite a few less of us. Unfortunately it’s not those scumbags who will die first.
Mike Goetz
No Democrat is voting for this because they think the rich “deserve” tax cuts. It is just the price to get the giant middle class tax cut that is the centerpiece of this deal, by far the largest chunk and something that every single Democrat agrees needed to be done. Is it more important to get the people you like X, or to deny the people you don’t like Y?
For example, on the estate tax: the difference between what this deal provides (35% on estates over 5MM) and what the Democrats wanted (45% on estates over 3MM) is about $10 billion in foregone revenue. For that, we’re supposed to support scuttling $350 billion in middle class tax cuts, and $150 billion in direct aid to the working poor and unemployed?
SectarianSofa
@change:
Oh, I guess you’re right then. You’ve convinced me by proposing, then knocking down, a straw man!
Poopyman
@geg6:
Only once, but it has to be by Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity.
cermet
@change: Try to read about the idea of AGW especially before you claim you know what you are saying when you claim all scientist in a field are wrong but ignorant you is correct – there are ZERO Climate scientist in the world that believe AGW isn’t valid; some differ on the amount but ZERO disagree with the proven, absolute FACT that the Earth is warming AND it is caused by humans. Unless you have a PhD in that field and have passed peer review, you are talking out of your ass.
Hogan
@change: So on the subject of tax cuts for the rich, you’ve got nothing? Thought so.
change
Seems I get quite a reaction by even making a joke about any part of the Global Warming Catechism!
He’s a climate heretic! BURN HIM, then let us buy more carbon credits to atone for our sins!
Gee, it almost makes me wonder if scientists aren’t subjected to even bigger pressures to go along with AGW? Hmmm…
Brachiator
@change:
No, we pretty much treat it like science, plain and simple.
On the other side, you have a guy who claims that global warming must be false because only God can destroy the Earth.
Not offended. And a joke is supposed to be funny.
SectarianSofa
@Jeff Darcy:
I never understood it as being a sincere argument, more as just cover for the policies to protect the wealthy. I think most Repubs know and are OK with that. Of course, some will believe it, just like some believe that ‘professional wrestling’ isn’t scripted.
Chyron HR
@change:
Yes, Timmy, science is just like a religion. The Holy Messiah Glenn Beck said so, after all.
jayjaybear
@change: Poor little martyr. Show us on the doll where the bad climate realists donkey-punched you.
News Reference
change
Climate gate pretty much exposed AGW belief for what it is–it may or may not be true, but there’s incredible pressure in the academic world to go with the flow and pretend its true (and dangerous) to conform with international leftism.
PurpleGirl
@freelancer: I was i Arizona in 1990 for arbitration hearings, about 40 miles outside of Phoenix. One day it snowed. It stuck for a very short time and then was gone. But it was definitely snow.
SectarianSofa
@change:
Re: “change”
Run, it’s a trollbot!
Omnes Omnibus
@change: You got a reaction by posting mind-bogglingly stupid comment. Being the person who bites the heads off of chickens at the fair may get you attention, but is it really the kind of attention you want? I will leave to you to decide.
The Moar You Know
@change: Was that before or after you had to scrape your sister’s lipstick off your dick, you ignorant hillbilly retard?
change
BTW, China and India are putting one new coal power plant online every day. That’s coal, carbon spewing, black, coal baby.
Chiense auto sales are breaking all records–they could own 40 million cars by 2020. And they’re gas guzzlers–SUVs are even more popular there than here, and hybrid sales are in the tank.
Cap and trade that, greenies.
Paul in KY
@jayjaybear: Truer words have never been typed on teh intertubes.
Poopyman
@change: Could you please try to be a little more subtle when you try to redirect the topic of discussion in a thread?
Sheesh. We used to have half-decent trolls on this blog ….
Moonbatman
Epic Stupid whining Faux Noise Wingnut Butthurt
Megyn Kelly Blames Democrats’ ‘Class Warfare Narrative’ for Arsonist in Cape Cod
Unlike the violence promoted by Glenn Beck, this violence is justified by the economy being in the tank, millions of people out of work, the record profits on Wall Street, the opression of the poor by the Rich getting richer and increasing income disparity.
They are lucky they did not get the treatment they deserve. Like what Persecuted Political Prisoner and Social Justice Warrior Steven Hayes did to the rich Fatcat Petit family.
SectarianSofa
@The Moar You Know:
I lol’d. I couldn’t help it.
Chris
@FlipYrWhig:
This. So sick of the notion that somehow, the people at the very top should get to gorge themselves in obscene profits that are usually the result of a team effort, while tossing scraps to the rest of the team and, if they’re really very generous, hiring a few more people to do it.
On a related note, I think people who ask “have you ever gotten a job from a poor man?” (one of the more popular lines these days) should be punched in the face hard enough to draw blood. First, because of the smug, patronizing, third-grade classroom format of the question itself.
Second, the answer’s YES. And so have you, and so has the so-called “productive class;” the reason they and anyone in their companies have jobs is because of the millions of teeming anonymous common (and increasingly poor) people who buy their products and services.
Third, the rich already have enough surplus wealth to hammer unemployment down to near-zero if they should so choose. And they’re not doing it. We’re not getting jobs from the rich, we’re getting fired by them while they get to sit on an ever-increasing mound of profit.
So don’t give me this preening bullshit about how we all owe everything to the rich. And don’t give me this bullshit about how they’re somehow going to save us all, because if they had any interest in doing it, they already would have.
Chyron HR
@change:
Have you always worshipped Communist China, or did you just start once you found out that the “libs” might not like them?
DougJ
@The Grand Panjandrum:
That’s not a good comparison, IMHO. It is these people’s jobs to hear constituents out and now crazy shit to them. I have friends who answer the phones for Congressmen, btw. I know what the job entails.
fasteddie9318
@SectarianSofa:
I think it’s more like “everything you know about economics is wrong, because FREEDOM! and shut up, that’s why.”
SectarianSofa
@Moonbatman:
Controlled by the narrative, eh? When did conservabots start getting all post-post-modern? Is Fox news actually performance art, just like the WWE?
change
@Chyron HR:
When did I say anything about “wrosipping” China?
I just made a point–they’ve chosen their future, and their future is coal and cars.
I DO find it hilarious at how effective they are at pulling the wool over the eyes of western greenies by having a few showcase “green” projects and then proceed to build more and more coal plants quietly behind the scenes and subsdize gasoline prices. That’s pretty funny.
Brachiator
@Mike Goetz:
False choice. The Democrats could have crafted a better deal. Instead they decided to run from their own shadows until the last minute.
I would have laid out the consequences before the mid term elections and said coldly that the Bush tax cuts did not work, so they are gone. If the Republicans then wanted to cram tax increases down Americans’ throats, the voters would have had a chance to jump on board.
But then again, this is probably why I am not a politician.
Chris
@Chyron HR:
LOL, yes. I love how some enterprizing young Ayn Randian intellectuals have started praising China for being a model of True Capitalism(TM), while most of the old guard is still stuck in the “CommiesCommiesCommies!” narrative and accusing the liberals of being in love with them.
Culture of Truth
Methinks ‘change’ doth protest too much
change
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/02/chinas-2030-co2/
change
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/02/chinas-2030-co2/
j low
@SectarianSofa:
Bravo!
FlipYrWhig
@cermet: Hopefully you didn’t think I was defending the idea rather than mocking it.
Is the idea supposed to be that rich people have money to invest, which leads to new and expanded businesses? Or that rich people spend more freely, which keeps the marketplace for consumer goods humming? That’s why I think it’s so weird: it’s not at all clear to me what the rich people are supposedly doing with their money to “create jobs.”
I’m no economist, but, if anything, wouldn’t $250K as used by five or more households do much more to jump-start the economy and keep people employed than $250K as used by one rich dude? People at the bottom of the scale have to use, quickly, the money they have, no? It’s the people at the top of the scale who have the ability to be picky and choosy about what they buy, slowing down the “velocity of money,” I’d think…
Moonbatman
@The Moar You Know:
Yea don’t you know you should be more like your betters the sophisticated in the Ivy League who groom their daughters for that role.
A Columbia professor is arrested for incest — but isn’t there a constitutional right to incest between consenting adults?
RoyG
Yep, they create shitty entry-level customer service positions, where low paid hourly employees have to take the heat from the public for their bosses’ Screw Our Customers™ business decisions.
SectarianSofa
@fasteddie9318:
Shit, that’s right. Thank you. I *hate it* when I fail to give the Austrian School its full due.
change
@RoyG:
Speaking from experience there? Maybe you should have gotten a degree in something more useful than Women’s Studies, then.
Stillwater
@change: I’ll give you props for your first comment being funny. I laughed. But after that, I think your confused about what ‘people on the left’ think. We’re just making this shit up as we go along!!
Chicago dyke
staffers. they’re always good for a laugh.
jl
@Jewish Steel: I agree. A lack of attention to this process is one of my biggest disappointments with Obama, he does not seem to understand his role in making the case for the policies he favors, and his vision to the public. He mentioned the ‘long game’ recently, but he does not seem to understand that the long game includes advocating the ideas you believe in to the public.
Regardless of this person’s role in the Senator’s office, this mindless slogan, repeated in support of tax policy that by all evidence proved exactly the opposite, shows how empty and rote mainstream policy discussion has become in the U.S. It has become simply repetition of slogans the GOP and big business have pumped into the public consciousness over the last few decades.
Some commenters here deride the idea of the ‘bully pulpit’ because it cannot be used to sway a corrupt Senate on a particular vote, or get a specific legislation passed or change it to your specific demands it in the short run. But the bully pulpit is more than that, it is making the case for ideas you believe in, persuading the public to change its conceptual framework, and building popular support, and willingness of the population to advocate for good policies to their representatives. That part of the ‘long game’ seems missing from Obama.
As I mentioned in a previous comment, Obama may have a shallow knowledge of economics, and believe in some very wrong centrist conventional wisdom. That may erode his confidence in his own vision, and prevent him from making his case for good and ethical policies. That is a problem with many centrist Democrats,
As an example here is an extract from a PBS interview with Obama from a link is a subsequent post in Skwire’s blog:
NSKEEP: Won’t Republicans argue — and, in fact, won’t reality argue that any cuts will have to be even deeper because this package that you’re pushing for now will mean there’s even less government revenue?
OBAMA: Actually, I think that if you talk to economists, both conservative and liberal, what they’ll say is the problem is not next year. The problem is, how are we dealing with our medium-term debt and deficit, and how are we dealing with our long-term debt and deficit? And most of that has to do with entitlements, particularly Social Security and Medicaid.
http://www.npr.org/2010/12/10/131949362/transcript-obama-on-taxes-economy-and-start
Skwire hightlighted this exchange with the blurb that Obama is coming after Social Security, with what appears to me the implication of malicious intent. If you read the whole interview, I think Skwire’s post is unfair.
http://brendancalling.com/2010/12/14/obama-is-coming-for-your-social-security/
But the fact remains that Obama’s statement is simply mistaken. People wonder how Obama could have appointed such fools as Simpson and Bowles to head the catfood commission.
But if Obama holds incorrect beliefs, that coincide with those of our bankrupt, innumerate and incompetent conventional wisdom elites, and Obama still (Still, even now!) has a misplaced faith in those elites, and agrees with some of their mistaken notions, then such awful choices make more sense, without having to impute bad motives.
I think Obama has a very shallow understanding of economics, and is being guided by conventional wisdom in place of his own critical thinking. This tendency may be, if true, Obama’s greatest weakness as a leader.
I heard a clip of Huffington on a talking head show saying that Obama has misplaced reverence for the elite establishment, and that statement rings true, regardless of what I think of Huffington.
SectarianSofa
@change:
Hey, change, John just threw up a new thread for you to troll in. Yeah, it’s just over there!
Moonbatman
@The Moar You Know:
Who does he think he is? As smart as Columbia professor, David Epstein?
fasteddie9318
@change:
You mean like how the rest of us have to scrape two inches of stupid off of this blog every time you stop by?
cleek
@change:
i’m on schedule to make more money this year than i did last year.
this proves there is no unemployment.
QED, fucktard
Mike Goetz
@Brachiator:
Actually, it is the one and only true choice. Do you vote yes to bring something to the needy, or vote no to keep something from the rich.
Those are the terms, that is the choice.
The Grand Panjandrum
@DougJ: My point is that we don’t know know enough about the person Skwire calls Maddy and we do know who answer’s Dept phones at most colleges and universities: Not someone who can necessarily answer a question such as the one Skwire asked. Sure the answer was simplistic but who is Maddy? I do not believe every person answering a phone in a Congressional office needs to know the answer to every policy question. They do need to know who has the answer and put the caller through to that person or at least take a note and pass it on. Pouncing on Maddy seems (and I will be VERY charitable) premature.
Hogan
She doesn’t work in politics. She works in government.
gene108
Sigh…not only can people by rude, they can post about it on their blogs…yay the 21st Century…
There are effective ways to communicate your displeasure. There are factual ways to make your point. If you claim to have all the facts on your side, you should at least try to be accurate and not brag because your opinions are not facts.
(1) The insurance mandate was deemed unconstitutional by 1 judge and constitutional by 2 others. I don’t get why a liberal (which I assume he is, because of his anti-tax cut stance), champions right-wing talking points to undercut a Democratic Senator.
(2) The bank bailouts really were needed, in the fall of 2008. Things would be a lot worse without them. I don’t get why the fact based community doesn’t understand this. You may not like it, but it doesn’t change the facts. It’s sort of like telling a two year old to eat his vegetables. He won’t like it, but the fact is he needs some veggies in his diet.
(3) I’m not sure what he was right about, regarding Afghanistan, but judging by his opinion of himself, it probably has little to do with reality.
If you have a blog, that I assume at least a handful of people read, there are better ways to advance your agenda that the rich need to be taxed more than calling your Senator’s office and being a jerk to one of his staffers.
You just aren’t going to sway the swayable folks out there by bragging that you were a jerk to some poor staffer, who did the best she could to be courteous to you and let your voice your opinion to your Senator’s office.
Chyron HR
@change:
I realize that attacking people for typos in their posts is the last refuge of conservative “debate”, but you probably shouldn’t attempt it if you’re dyslexic.
Well, there you go. If China pollutes, pollution must be good. Take that, “greenies”!
fasteddie9318
@Hogan:
The line between the two, particularly in a congressional office, is tenuous at best.
FlipYrWhig
@Chris:
Have you ever gotten a job from a rich man? I think I had one, when I worked for a small business that installed sprinkler systems. Mostly, though, I’ve gotten jobs from nonprofit organizations (in adulthood), large corporations, and not-particularly-well-off local businesses like bakeries and restaurants (in my youth). I don’t know what world it is where a “rich man” hires people. Businesses borrow money from banks and use that to pay their people, until they become profitable. This rich-man-job-creator notion is a weird view of economics. Rich individuals just don’t do this stuff, at least in my experience. Rich individuals may hire maids and gardeners and personal assistants, but that’s not a very big component of the economy.
Scott
Strange how the climate change denialists never come around during the fucking summer.
Mike Goetz
@The Grand Panjandrum:
On our side, it is never premature to call somebody stupid. It’s like moving queen’s pawn for us.
Scott
I just made a point—they’ve chosen their future, and their future is coal and cars.
If you love Red China so much, why don’t you move there already?
Stillwater
@Chyron HR: Yes, Timmy, science is just like a religion.
It’s a branch of a more dominant strain: the religion of evidence based conclusions (EBC). It’s a very powerful force, this religion of reason, one you don’t want to fuck with. Or get cross-wise with it’s adherents – they’re all merciless dogmatic liberals.
FlipYrWhig
@gene108:
There is a HUGE cottage industry lately in this kind of stuff: “bwahahaha, I was right, I predicted how much you suck.” A huge proportion of threads here are mucky and squishy with it.
FlipYrWhig
@gene108: Oh, I didn’t realize that the root post was by the guy who posts here as “brendancalling.”
Mike Goetz
Re: this Brendan Skwire guy, it would help liberals become more popular and persuasive if we weren’t GIGANTIC FUCKING TOOLS to everybody else.
David Hunt
@change:
Ah! Climate Change Denial Season has come at last! It’s such a magical time when all the denialists migrate north from the Southern Hemisphere for the winter. Soon, we’ll be able to listen to their siren mating calls of “It’s snows in Alaska in January, so Global Warming must be a hoax.” and its close variants. Eventually, that sad time will come when the weather warms and they disappear to colder climes. Unfortunately, that warmer weather tends to come earlier and earlier…
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris:
I am a lawyer who, by and large, represents poor people, so I would have to answer yes.
fasteddie9318
Hey, change, don’t let these libtards pile on you. No matter what they say, Global Darkening is REAL!
liberal
@change:
In terms of fairness, you have to compare per capita emissions. US is still a long ways ahead of China on that one.
Kal
The person in question was a staff assistant–A receptionist who’s responsibility it is to answer phones, set up tours, and keep an eye on the interns. They’re not paid to make policy or advise the Senator.
In the best of cases, Madeline would have told the caller that she was going to pass his message on to the Senator (ie: the legislative staff) and wished him a good day. It’s not her place to talk about policy. But to be fair, she probably just got done answer a dozen calls from Rush listeners who call every day at lunchtime.
bemused
@change:
Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard that “joke” many times before. “How about that global warming? Hardeeharhar….just kidding”. Usually the “jokester” is about 72 years old, on Medicare, Social Security and disability whose only entertainment is Rush and Beck and having coffee with all the other old farts down at the local cafe stiffing the waitresses their tips.
liberal
@gene108:
The RBC doesn’t understand this because it’s not true. The claim suffers from a fallacy of false dichotomy: either no action taken, or this particular bailout taken.
fasteddie9318
@Kal:
Depends on what was going on in the office that day. Back in my intern days I did some answering of phone calls, and on days when there was a particularly hot-button issue generating a lot of calls, most of which would follow the same basic script, they might supply us with some basic bullet points to engage the callers. Not saying that’s what happened here, and in fact I’d hope that “the wealthy create jobs” was young Maddy’s own stupidity and not something written up for her to say by the presumably more knowledgeable legislative aides in the senator’s office.
Jewish Steel
@Omnes Omnibus:
I am a teacher. Me too.
agrippa
I believe that politics has nothing at all to do with governing.
Politics is about winning; rewarding your friends; punishing your enemies. Getting in ofice and staying in office.
The concept of enemy is very important in politics, as politics is war by other means.
Governing is a different thing altogether.
El Cid
@David Hunt: It’s cold here in Georgia, too, so maybe we ought to get Al Gore to lipo some of his fat to burn so we can be warm! Hyuh!
freelancer
@change:
Ned Flanders strikes again.
GregB
Barney Frank was right that arguing with many if not most of these tea-bagging wingnutty rightists is about as useful as debating a kitchen table.
It doesn’t matter how many facts you produce or how many of their talking points you shoot down they just glide effortlessly along to another think tank talking point and never concede and never apologize.
fasteddie9318
@agrippa:
Then what goes on in congressional offices, at least below the legislative aide level, is politics. Constituent services, answering phone calls and letters, media relations, and public appearance logistics are about getting reelected, not governing. Maddy is in a political job and will be unless and until she gets promoted out of the part of the office where she’s interacting with constituents.
News Reference
“The wealthy create jobs” in the Communist dictatorship of China:
Often using child-slave labor;
Often manufacturing poisonous products sold to American children;
And often creating pollution that is abhorrent by even 19th century standards.
And right-wingers want America to be more like the Communist dictatorship of China.
Brachiator
@Mike Goetz:
Your repeating this doesn’t make it true.
Again, your framing of the argument is incorrect. The tax cuts for the rich are excessive, expand the deficit and will hurt the economy. So it is not just about “keeping something from the rich.”
I believe that the Republicans would have relented on the other tax issues. We will, of course, never know.
GregB
Barney Frank was right, debating these people is as useful as debating a kitchen table.
Chris
@News Reference:
Ever see the original “Manchurian Candidate”?
El Cid
[Oops. Wrong thread.]
Davis X. Machina
@Brachiator:
I believe I am an incredible chick magnet, but due to my wife, we will of course never know.
Hey, you’ve got your rich fantasy life, and I’ve got mine….
gypsy howell
If we taxed the bejeesus out of the rich, maybe they wouldn’t be so quick to drain cash in the form of salary, perks and bonuses from the companies they pretend to manage, and instead would invest that money into what actually makes the company successful. You know, stuff like decently-paid employees, state of the art systems, R&D, shit like that.
Maybe if there weren’t a HUGE personal incentive in the form of ultra-low capital gains tax rates for them, they would be more inclined to look at the long term health of their companies instead of the next quarter’s stock prices.
But no — because our government taxes them so very, very little, it’s worth it to them to suck every stinking penny and job from those companies, whether by firing people (oh good – now one person can do the job of two!), or sending jobs to India and China, or reducing benefits, or cutting R&D budgets, or whatever filthy, bloodsucking scheme they devise, so they can play in Wall Street’s Guaranteed Winner casino.
Fucking pigs.
Tax the rich. That’s the only way we’ll ever get jobs back.
Linda Featheringill
Phooey!
I was going to answer the troll but decided it wasn’t worth the effort.
By the way, my job evaporated. I knew it was insecure. Last week was the last.
So I’m sending resumes everywhere. I have a few nibbles and a definite “maybe.” And I’m still reaching out.
Wish me luck!
Martin
Heh, you guys are going to love this: Issa Exposed.
Your daily dose of stupid.
catpal
“the wealthy need more tax cuts to create jobs” is such bs.
Thanks Brendan. Most Dems in PA detest Casey – a Rock could’ve beat Crazy Ricky — but the DINO Dem machine in PA is useless — unless the candidate supports its Corporate Masters — ding ding – why we ended up with Casey.
Casey’s anti-Choice – but Catholic-protecting-pedophilia — makes him even more unlikable.
but then again – the current senior voters in PA (mostly voting for Repugs) — don’t care about future cuts to Soc Security — cause they got theirs Now.
Ripley
Ahem:
(blows nose, throws away tissue….)
Take that, greenies!
FlipYrWhig
@Linda Featheringill: Good luck Linda!
singfoom
I apologize if this is shitting up the thread, but I have to ask this question: (I’ll get to the actual question after my assumptions)
Cutting taxes for the rich won’t help the economy all that much. This has been covered up thread and I accept that idea. I disagree with this tax deal completely as I’ve stated on other threads.
So, my question is this:
What’s a thinking patriot supposed to do? Our government seems to be firmly in the hands of entrenched monied interests, whether it is multinational corporations or the banksters. I see no recourse through SCOTUS as it has deepened the capture of our political system by those with money by the Citizens United ruling.
It all seems like kabuki. I’m not advocating violent revolution or anything like that, but I don’t think supporting either party helps at this point, and I’m sincere, call me a firebagger if you want, but this problem is larger than the D/R divide.
Seriously, where do we go now? I refuse to leave and I refuse to just give up and focus solely on my family.
Brachiator
@Davis X. Machina: RE: I believe that the Republicans would have relented on the other tax issues. We will, of course, never know.
Hey, don’t you know that speculation is 20/20.
But I’ve gone over my reasons for this in detail in other threads, and in any case my “fantasy” is just as good as the myth that this compromise is the best that could be done.
FlipYrWhig
@singfoom: I think the hope is to go meta. The hope is disenthralling people from the conventionalism and ignorance they swallow without even necessarily knowing it. Yeah, it’s a long shot.
fasteddie9318
@singfoom:
Why not advocate violent revolution? It might be the only thing that will work. For me and mine, it’ll be a couple of years before we can even conceive of leaving, but I’m starting to resign myself to the need to leave once we’re able.
singfoom
@FlipYrWhig: Uh, yeah, I appreciate the idealism in your comment, but anything that starts with making the electorate learn more and be smarter is a losing proposition.
We’re in the beginning stages of Idiocracy. The Tea Party set would just *LURVE* “Ow, My Balls”.
singfoom
@fasteddie9318: I care too much about my loved ones that I disagree politically with to desire any kind of violent conflict.
I have no desire for there to be a second civil war and I have no desire to see American blood shed by Americans, regardless of the justifications.
Perhaps you’re right and that’s the only course of action that will have an effect. I’d like to believe otherwise.
If we could just remove the whole “money = speech” thing, that would help a ton.
FlipYrWhig
@singfoom: I have a fragile hope that the oldest generation, the ones who turned out so big for Republicans in November, will soon have their influence dwindle. Are older people by nature gullible, or is it that particular group? I think it may be them. I think some of the nonsense that works on them — especially all the mythology about how the Democrats want to plunder them of their hard-earned stuff and give it all to moochers, slackers, and shiftless minorities — isn’t going to work forever. Fox News hits them right in the sweet spot. It doesn’t hit everybody. Our future is probably in the hands of the young Latinos who’ll replace the FoxNewsies in the electorate.
Jamie
apparently the tax cut wasn’t big enough /snark
Lolis
@change:
what part of global means your city, dumbass?
General Stuck
@singfoom:
Long as we maintain mostly fair and free elections, there is hope. Pain is the great mind focuser, and Americans are about to get bigger doses of that than any generation since the GD. It will likely be a lot slower coming on than back then, but is going to, and needs to happen, imo, before the public realizes that America isn’t really Shangri La, and we have no birthright to either a healthy democracy, or a guaranteed comfortable lifestyle. Whether any such awakening occurs before we slip into dystopia, remains to be seen. But so long a one man one vote democracy is intact and those votes are freely and fairly counted, I won’t be giving up hope. Though I remain pessimistic.
Omnes Omnibus
@Lolis: It’s a very big city.
smith
Every time I hear the “wealthy people create jobs so they need tax cuts” spiel, I always tell them: “They’ve had the tax cuts for 10 years now and haven’t created jobs. In fact we are losing jobs at a record rate.” I either get no response or they shift the topic to blaming unions and “liberals” for the job problem.
Sadly too many people I know buy into these notions, even if they are poor and desperate and have been screwed by corporations. There was a guy at Kodak who lost his job a few months ago; did he blame Kodak? Nope, he blamed unions and public employees for getting him fired. The right-wing meme that if we just got rid of those pesky unions and public employees that the job creation in this country would just explode and no one from private companies would ever get fired is so deeply entrenched in the minds of many people and will be nearly impossible to counteract.
Tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations should be based on how many jobs they create – ones in America, mind you, not ones created in Mexico, India or China. Any company that doesn’t create jobs here in America should have their tax breaks rescinded. After all, that is very fair considering corporations keep telling us that if we give them tax breaks they will be able to create more jobs.
ricky
Yes, lets get poutraged that US Senators do not have sufficient staff to answer all the calls from constiuents with a knowledgeable person who can spend four or five minutes with each caller in an intelligent policy discussion. For every prick like Brendan who is “very important” there are fifteen complete assholes, most of whom arrive and leave on their call dissatisfied because they “pay your salary” but don’t get satisfaction. My, oh my, the blogosphere contributes so much to the understanding of how things work with pieces like this.
Here’s something everyone should do for fun. Go to a Senator’s office and watch the poor folks who handle the incoming calls. Most of the time they are swamped. And very few ever call to do anything but complain.
Please, keep covering those incoming constituent calls and answers.
Steve
I would be interested in hearing Maddy’s side of the story because that guy kind of sounds like a douche.
Howlin Wolfe
@change: No wonder your nuts are numb.
General Stuck
@Steve:
Yea, same here. I’m think Casey voted to separate the rich cuts from the mc ones, so it is hard for me to imagine a dem senate staffer saying something like this, when her boss supported just extending the mc tax cuts in a failed vote.
It smacks of the same kind of liberal side bullshit of blaming dems for republican obstruction.
Howlin Wolfe
@change: Your nuts are still numb. And, no, believing climate change is real is not a “religion”, you miserable projectionist. For you, apparently, denying such IS a religion. I base my belief on what evidence is available. You apparently base your denial on a fringe group of scientists. You can’t say the majority of climate scientists are deniers, now can you? If you do, you are beyond hope because only 2 per cent of climate scientists do. What makes your denial so much more grounded in reality than the belief of a majority of climate scientists? You idiots are too stupid to see the absurdity of this.
Howlin Wolfe
@change: No butthole, this isn’t a thread about climate change. But you’ve proven your purpose isn’t debate, it’s about pissing off librulz.
Good dog!
Howlin Wolfe
@change: Keep to the topic, which is tax cuts create jobs, another article of your idiot ideology/religion.
singfoom
@General Stuck: So, when my one vote is overruled by the votes that come in the $$$$ flavor from corporate contributions, do you really believe the nominal system of one man, one vote is still in place?
Carl Nyberg
If you go into politics to meet powerful charismatic men to have sex with them so they will open doors for you professionally… This would be a reason to go into politics that is consistent with not liking to debate policy issues.
cathyx
Back to the subject of the thread, how can 1% of the population create enough jobs for the other 99%?
singfoom
@FlipYrWhig: Stupidity and lack of interest in nuanced explanations of policy and or choices knows no age boundaries.
Perhaps you’re right and the oldest generation is holding us back due to their prejudices, but it seems like “What’s the Matter With Kansas” writ large across generations.
People will still focus on the fight for their team, fooled into thinking that the kabuki actually has significance instead of being a bright and shiny conflict we can congeal around instead of recognizing the whole rigged system for what it is.
Oligarchy, perhaps not in its purest form, but definitely there in a practical format.
PIGL
@change: are you really this complete of an idiot, or is this epic idiocy merely your clever troll disguise?
singfoom
@cathyx: They can’t and they don’t. It is utterly false and plenty of examples of it’s falsity exist.
They will invest their taxcuts in one of two investments: Stocks that are taxed at capital gains rates, less than that of normal income like you and me.
Or, more likely, in the form of campaign contributions so the gravy train of privatizing profit and socializing risk keeps on rolling.
cathyx
One thing I know about the oldest generation that is holding me back every time I shop is they always pay for their stuff with a check. They need to move into the 20th century and start using plastic. If not, use cash.
gene108
@liberal: Eh…Bush & Co could’ve propped up Lehman-Brothers and prevented the mess from exploding like it did…but we’ll never know how effective that might’ve been…
There’s not a lot of practical good getting into “what if” this or that was done mode, in my opinion.
I think you can make a safe “what if” assumption with regards to action versus inaction. You have a pretty straightforward true / false, binary 0/1, on / off situation.
Figuring out out “what if” action A was taken versus action B, creates a lot of speculation, which cannot be proven correct in any meaningful way.
PIGL
@change: so now it was only a joke, rather than a conclusive rebuttal?
Liar and/or fool.
It’s not religion. It’s science.
Mnemosyne
People always speak sneeringly of “tax shelters” and how rich people will just pour their money into those if we tax them too high, but you know what? Those tax shelters went to actually build things like roads and buildings and not just into the stock market.
In retrospect, getting rid of those tax shelters was a really bad idea, because they kept capital flowing into the economy in a way that just doesn’t happen when everything gets concentrated into the financial markets.
Buck
@General Stuck:
I’m thinking nothing short of a complete burn-down. Yes, the people ARE that stupid! As long as the media remains as-is, there’s really no hope.
FlipYrWhig
@singfoom: I think you’re right, and the ignorant will always be with us. But the particular feedback loop of gullible older white people being manipulated into supporting conservative policy… that I can’t imagine lasting very much longer. Like cathyx’s check-writing, that phenomenon is a relic of a prior age, where to be an informed person you watched The News on TV. Younger people don’t do that reflexively. Something’s going to change when that older generation, the ones who grew up on the Cold War but not WWII, the hippie-haters from 1968, stops being so politically dominant. There will still be ignorant people, but they won’t be ignorant in exactly the same way.
Buck
@PIGL:
Yes he is. Along with many other Americans.
Howlin Wolfe
@Stillwater: Where’s our church? Oh, we don’t have one. Where’s our institution, my bible, my artifacts, my fucking tithes?
Thanks for playing, Really Bad Analogy.
Stillwater, hmm. The Minnesota city that is home to none other than Rep. Bachmann, R-Batshit.
Is that you, Shelley?
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
I understand what you are saying. However, other tax shelters made no economic sense, did not produce any tangible benefits to anyone, and only existed to generate “paper losses” that could be used to offset other income.
Also, for example, some film industry investment partnerships were little more than sophisticated scams designed to separate
suckersprivate investors from their money.That said, I take your larger point that not every tax shelter represented some rich guy or corporation doing evil deeds.
Howlin Wolfe
@Linda Featheringill: Good luck, LF!
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Yeah, I’m not saying all tax shelters were good. But the ones that encouraged actual capital investment instead of emphasizing “capital gains” from moving money around were very useful and probably should have stayed privileged.
And the people who invested in films lost their money because of entertainment accounting, not because it was necessarily a bad investment. Entertainment accounting is basically set up so the studio can hold onto as much money as possible and never have to give a dime other than salary to anyone else. Ask poor Jack Klugman, who’s being told by Universal that a TV show he did in the 1970s that’s still in syndication still owes money to the studio for the original production costs and so it supposedly has not shown a profit despite being in the marketplace for the past 40 years.
General Stuck
@singfoom:
Here is what I believe. I believe we have a lot of good solid liberals in both the House and Senate, that are by far the majorities of dems of both chambers. I think we have some conservadems in the both chambers also. The ones in the House are mostly harmless when it comes to voting against prog legs, because The House is a strict majoritarian body.
I think the senate is where the problem is, mainly due it’s rules, that give the repubs and sometimes their mini me red state dems the power to hold a gun to the nations head to extort what they want. And this they have and are doing, with often help from a few vichy dems. On the whole, I think our dem senators in the senate are fairly solid mainstream dem liberals, who want to do the right thing.
I think they have a big self esteem problem, and self confidence problem, from some pol curses first cast by Reagan toward defining them, and they have not and need to extract themselves from the labels they let that dude hang around their necks, that in a phrase could be “tax and spend liberals’ and there are a bunch more vapid untrue mems these mostly fine dems need to free themselves from.
I also think we are far too hard on most of them while not considering the system, we the people maintain, where money is the mothers milk and devils brew that gets everyone elected in this country, dem and repub, and gets them reelected. And still, these fine democratic men and women go to the mat with something like HCR, and deliver it, in spite of the plutocrats who hate this law like the plague, and control a huge amount of the private campaign cash that flows to both parties.
And all this, done while suffering the spite of a few loud liberal shin kickers hounding them every step of the way with the perfect, or else. Not to mention terribly unfaithful voters in general across the country, as compared to the wingnuts who understand the game and what is at stake and show up on election day, in higher, and sometimes way higher numbers than their dem counterparts, who seem to be too busy, or too disappointed to do their duty and vote.
My blue county is a good example and representative county for the entire country, I think. We have roughly 14,000 registered dems compared to 5 or 6 thousand goopers. And every election, without fail, no matter the situation, the country votes dems by around 6000 dem votes, to around 5000 GOP votes. I think this is largely the situation around the country.
So why should dem politicians count on fickle dems to support them, and why should they not go a little winger lite to get needed support?
That is what I think.
cermet
@change: Where do people like you come up with such totally stupid statements such as this? The socalled Climate gate, after long and careful review, was shown Pto be nothing – not a single scientist did anything wrong or incorrect – ONLY that they should make their data more easily available – period. Again, read the FACTS before talking out of your asshole and proving to all how stupid you are. AGW is absolute fact and ZERO climate scientists say otherwise in published and peer reviewed papers; only liars, idiots and fools say otherwise – these people are total asswipes – try not joining that specal ed club.
Svensker
@Linda Featheringill:
Ugh. Luck!
Nick
If Maddy was really a political person, she would’ve had an easy answer;
“I agree with you, so does Senator Casey, he’s said this time and time again. But the GOP has decided to take working class and unemployed Americans hostage for tax cuts for the rich, and I’m not willing to let the hostage suffer. Senator Casey looks forward to ending this egregious hostage situation in 2012 when Americans like yourself stick it to the hostage takers”
Stillwater
@Howlin Wolfe: Is that you, Shelley?
You’re on to me! Won’t get fooled again!!
DougW
@wenchacha:
Someones been slurping the kool-aid big time.
AxelFoley
@change:
Still a dipshit, I see.
rmp
I have a friend who is really a good guy but …….
He buys into this the rich create the jobs line of bull. I’m a small business man. I’m responsible for approximately 24 employees. Trust me I’m not rich.
I told him it pisses me off when he worships at the alter of the rich when people like me are creating the jobs.
Mnemosyne
@change:
It’s pretty funny to see people who don’t even understand weather trying to bash global climate change.
Hint: if it’s warming up where you are, it can actually snow more, not less.
brendancalling
heh. i haven’t blogged all week, so this is the first i’ve seen that I was linked.
thanks!