Always Remember, They Hate Us for our Freedom

Shocking news:

No group of people is going to be enthusiastic about a foreign power dropping bombs on their countrymen, as the Pakistanis can attest. But a new poll from the Washington Post, ABC News and the BBC finds that 73 percent of Afghans say that U.S. air strikes are “unacceptable.” That’s an increase from the last survey, which found 66 percent opposition to the U.S. air war last December.

Back then, restrictions from General Stanley McChrystal, then the commander of the war, had all but stopped the air war entirely — and two-thirds of Afghans still disapproved of it. So NATO might have a statistical warning sign, now that its planes recently tallied 2,600 attack sorties between June and October, a 50 percent increase over the same period in 2009. In October 2010 alone, as Danger Room was the first to report, the U.S. launched more than 1,000 air strikes. That carries a risk of reviving the public anger over the air war that led McChrystal to tamp down the strikes in the first place.

But while disapproval of the strikes is almost back to January 2009’s level of 77 percent, not all Afghans consider the U.S. solely responsible for the civilian casualties they can cause. While 35 percent of Afghans blame the U.S. for deaths from above, nearly as many, 32 percent, blamed insurgents for getting civilians caught in the crossfire. Another 32 percent said both were to blame.

Awesome. The “good” news from that poll is that we are viewed as equally culpable as Al Qaeda.

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130 replies
  1. 1
    geg6 says:

    Where does one go if one is not a Firebagger or a “progressive” but also is not an Obot? I’m an old school liberal and there is no one out there for me, I feel. No one.

  2. 2
    cleek says:

    and the Afghans don’t even know why we’re there:

    Afghans in two crucial southern provinces are almost completely unaware of the September 11 attacks on the United States and don’t know they precipitated the foreign intervention now in its 10th year, a new report showed on Friday.

    Get Your War On makes the same point, but better.

  3. 3
    Mike Goetz says:

    Yes, our freedom to drop bombs upon their heads.

  4. 4
    Zifnab says:

    @geg6:
    /hug
    We’re here for you, buddy.

  5. 5
    Joe Beese says:

    Following angry rebukes of President Hamid Karzai’s call to make the war less disruptive to civilians, the Obama Administration is said to be further escalating its air war in Afghanistan, and officials are confirming a “loosening of the reins” of the restrictions on air strikes. Officials warned that the McChrystal rules, aimed at reducing civilian deaths, meant “some officers were exerting excessive caution, fearing career damage if civilians were mistakenly killed.” With Petraeus now in charge, concerns about killing civilians have faded.

    http://news.antiwar.com/2010/1.....ghanistan/

    War criminal.

  6. 6
    schrodinger's cat says:

    Obama has doubled down in Afghanistan, he is extending the Bush tax-cuts. His administration took steps so that the war criminals would not be prosecuted. His actions have been that of centrist Republican (the kind extinct in the today’s wingnut dominated Republican Party) not a Democrat. His actions have shown that he is for the status-quo not change.

    I has a huge disappointed.

  7. 7
    cleek says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    His actions have been that of centrist Republican … not a Democrat.

    odd, he seems to be acting exactly like a Democrat, to me.

  8. 8
    jrg says:

    By pointing out that people don’t like to be bombed, you’ve joined the “Blame America First” crowd. You’re also a stupid hippie.

  9. 9
    SteveinSC says:

    @geg6: Hey, I’m with you. If you find the place, let me know and I’ll follow.

    As to the war, we’ve got a simple solution: Back out, let the Taliban take over, fund their rivals (i.e. Northern Alliance or other warlords) to keep an eye out for any Queda. If they come back bomb the “Do-Jesus” out of them. The problem is not Afghanistan, but small Al Queda set-ups in any of several countries that permit breathing room and space for AQ to make bombs and hatch plots. Pakistan and Iran are separate issues at nation-scales in which other nations should be involved e.g. India, Russia, Turkey, etc. We do not need great armies storming around and air forces bombing McCaining the hotten-tots. We need SWAT-team actions based on good terrorist intelligence and local allies.

  10. 10
    SteveinSC says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: D’accord.

  11. 11
    Marmot says:

    Another 32 percent said both were to blame.

    The vital center! Unity ’08!

  12. 12
    soonergrunt says:

    And now, for the non-cherry picked tabulations from that poll:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/worl.....a-11910134
    Here’s the poll data itself:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared.....anpoll.pdf

    It ain’t pretty, but it’s not the “ZOMG! They hate us all and everything is doomed! Doomed, I tell you, doomed!” either.

  13. 13
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @cleek: Yes a blue dog, though, not that much different from a moderate Republican.

  14. 14
    gnomedad says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    And the teabaggers think he’s the AntiChrist. Is this a great country, or what?

  15. 15
    SteveinSC says:

    What I don’t understand is, after all the caterwauling from the republicans and most particuarly the “conservatives” and the Teabaggers, how can they countenance the $900 B added to the deficit? At the very least, all the Teabaggers should be up in arms (sic) against it, since the debt was their shtick a month ago. They have to be against the “compromise.” (Obama’s ass must be really sore.)

  16. 16
    cleek says:

    @SteveinSC:
    Rule #1: the deficit is only an issue in the months immediately preceding an election.

  17. 17
    WarMunchkin says:

    @geg6: I oscillate between both sides rather than claim one explicitly, so I’m with ya buddy. I found this nice blog here.

  18. 18
    Keith G says:

    No group of people is going to be enthusiastic about a foreign power dropping bombs on their countrymen, as the Pakistanis can attest. But a new poll from the Washington Post, ABC News and the BBC finds that 73 percent of Afghans say that U.S. air strikes are “unacceptable.”

    Happy Pearl Harbor Day!!

  19. 19
    D-Chance. says:

    Cole, you realize this is going to result in another wild-eyed 4000 word rant on your “racism” and “bigotry” tonight?

    Oh, yeah, John Boehner is orange, too.

  20. 20
    SteveinSC says:

    @cleek:

    Rule #1: the deficit is only an issue in the months immediately preceding an election

    Well if this is true, it looks like the democracy left to us by the Founding Fathers is a failed experiment. The public does not have enough sense to make even a minimally informed choice. The IQ of the US public (not very high in the first place) must be in a nose-dive.

  21. 21
    gnomedad says:

    @WarMunchkin:
    JuiceRolled!

  22. 22
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @geg6:
    I’ve considered myself to be a liberal since the mid-Sixties. It’s just a little weird out there now because there are people who consider “the left” to be the enemy of the Democratic party (Huh?) and others who will brand you a firebagger for failing to acknowledge the total greatness of Obama.

    Hang in there. We evil liberals be working the GOTV effort for the next election just as we always do (Despite our bitching) because that’s the other thing that old time liberals do.

  23. 23
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @gnomedad: They probably just don’t like him because he is black and a democrat.
    What I am wondering is what the hell is Obama thinking and why has he been trying so hard to make nice with the Republicans when it has been obvious to anyone, that they hate his very existence.

  24. 24
    geg6 says:

    @Zifnab: @SteveinSC:

    I am just so depressed and disappointed in everything today. Even my friends and family who are unemployed are pissed off by the latest capitulation to the GOPers (and the debacles occurring still in Afghanistan and Iraq). The only thing I’ve read lately that makes any sense to me is this:

    http://www.salon.com/news/popu.....can_people

    I believe this analysis to be exactly right. What we do about it, however, is unclear. How do we get an apathetic and demoralized populace to embrace any sort of mass action? In the political and social climate of this point in time, is it even possible? I don’t know. I just know that the only solution to our problems must come from people like us, not by Obama or the Dems and certainly not by the GOP or Teabaggers. Neither have shown concern for the mass of citizens. And the citizens themselves don’t understand what is happening or are too stupid and lazy to try to understand. We need leaders and we don’t have any. None who want to lead us anyway.

  25. 25
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @WarMunchkin:
    Hook, line, and sinker.

  26. 26
    Corner Stone says:

    I’m sure the Afghans would have a more supportive understanding of our dropping bombs on them if only WikiLeaks hadn’t published all those documents.

  27. 27
    danimal says:

    @cleek: Rule #1: the deficit is only an issue in the months immediately preceding an election when considering benefits for non-rich, non-white peoples.

    Fixeded.

  28. 28
    cleek says:

    @SteveinSC:
    half the people in the US are of below-average intelligence.

  29. 29
    cleek says:

    @Dennis SGMM:

    We evil liberals be working the GOTV effort for the next election just as we always do

    the “effort” didn’t seem to be very effective, this last election.

  30. 30
    geg6 says:

    @Dennis SGMM:

    Hang in there. We evil liberals be working the GOTV effort for the next election just as we always do (Despite our bitching) because that’s the other thing that old time liberals do.

    Well, you’re right. However, I will only be working the GOTV for people I believe in right now. And that is not the president, sadly to say and especially so considering the time, effort, and money I put into his campaign the last time around. Looks like Bob Casey is the only one I’ll be supporting on the national stage (and to think I was against him because of his anti-abortion beliefs, which have not in any way stopped him from being a decent liberal but quiet senator). And locally, we still have a few liberal Dems who remember what it means to be a liberal Dem. But I’ve taken myself out of the OFA listings. What a crock that was.

  31. 31
    danimal says:

    @geg6: You’re just ahead of the curve. The great mass of people haven’t yet sorted out the economic disaster that occurred in 2008. They will.

    There will be a tipping point; liberals just need to keep the faith. History is on our side.

  32. 32
    WyldPirate says:

    What? You mean the afghanis don’t like those 100K extra armed Americans roaming around and kicking in their doors, trampling their crops. They don’t like those J-DAMS of love falling from the sky?

    Why don’t they know that President Obama is just trying to help them? What a bunch of ungrateful bastards.

  33. 33
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: Because:
    1. As president, he is the leader of the country. I think he takes that job way more seriously than being the leader of the Democrats.
    2. The people who are going to be hurt by either getting a tax hike or lose unemployment benefits are not going to care if they were due to expire because of Bush and only have time to look up and see that they cannot buy presents for Christmas.
    3. Ultimately, the kinds of structural changes that need to be made in this country cannot occur as long as one party is unwilling to govern. Obama has to find a way to pry apart a some Republicans, and he’s not going to do that by telling them off. He is going to have to get enough pressure on them, somehow, to create a coalition to work with. The November elections did not help.

    Thinking about it, real change in this country has only occurred when the “conservative” party has decided to change. The New Deal, Civil Rights, Medicare were all created by the party that held onto the conservative voters. Civil rights caused them to bolt to the other party, but the Congress people who were elected under them were the ones who made the changes.

  34. 34
    El Tiburon says:

    Look, polls are only good for measuring how a certain population feels about a particular topic.

    Just because Afghanis don’t like being bombed and mutilated, doesn’t mean they don’t not like it either.

  35. 35
    Alwhite says:

    My guess is that the Democratic party will lose a large minority of the black vote based on the belief that the Democrats are responsible for Obama’s failures. I think ABLs epic rant of last night is in that vein & it will be much worse from the low information voters. We are not even close to overcoming race in this country.

    Some of the problems are of his making, a lot are the Blew Dogs making and some are just part & parcel of the Democratic Party’s personality.

    Ultimately it won’t matter as the drop off will benefit the wingnuts & damage the country.

  36. 36
    Culture of Truth says:

    It’s extremely weird that Americans want the people we are at war with to approve of the experience. Generally speaking that’s not how it works.

  37. 37
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Two points,
    1. Tax cuts are not going to be enough to stimulate the economy.
    2. Dealing with GOP obstructionists completely on their terms is not going to be good for the country either.

  38. 38
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    As president, he is the leader of the country. I think he takes that job way more seriously than being the leader of the Democrats.

    While that sounds very noble, and may even be the case, his failure to do the latter may seriously curtail his opportunity to do the former.

  39. 39
    Corner Stone says:

    You dropped a bomb on me, baby
    You dropped a bomb on me (But you turned me on, baby)
    You dropped a bomb on me, baby
    You dropped a bomb on me

    You were my thrills, you were my pills
    You dropped a bomb on me
    You turn me out, you turn me on
    You turned me loose, then you turned me wrong

  40. 40
    Corner Stone says:

    The single idea that “tax cuts” are good for what ails you.

  41. 41
    Alwhite says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Civil rights caused them to bolt to the other party, but the Congress people who were elected under them were the ones who made the changes.

    If you read the history of the vote for the Civil Rights Act you will see it was mostly one man, Lyndon Johnson, that hectored, browbeat, threatened and cajoled those Dixicraps into passing a bill they knew would kill most of them. One man with a vision and a sense of purpose did that. Kennedy would not have, Hubert, as much as I admire and respect him, could not have. But LBJ knew this was his time and he did what was necessary not what was expedient or even what was merely possible.

  42. 42
    Corner Stone says:

    @geg6: The people screaming “firebagger” the loudest are in a bit of denial at the moment.

  43. 43
    Fuck! A Duck says:

    Culture of Truth: You should hear the Brits talk about the railroads and schools they built in India!

  44. 44
    Brachiator says:

    No group of people is going to be enthusiastic about a foreign power dropping bombs on their countrymen, as the Pakistanis can attest.

    Which Pakistanis are these protesting the bomb droppings? The last time I looked, the Pakistan government made a few weak noises of protest, and then got all happy when the US promised a couple of billion in aid and military equipment, and backed off on efforts to strengthen the civilian government.

    The war in the region is a pointless shambles, but people need to stop making shit up about the supposed anger of the people. Hell, the Pakistani “street” will tell you how the US and India are conspiring to thwart Pakistan’s reasonable ambitions.

  45. 45
    Chris says:

    @SteveinSC:

    At the very least, all the Teabaggers should be up in arms (sic) against it, since the debt was their shtick a month ago.

    Please tell me you’re not that naive…

  46. 46
    geg6 says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    This. I am so sick of this notion (mostly in the media and among GOPers) that Afghanis (and Pakistanis) should be so thankful that Americans have once again subjected their country to massive death, injury, and suffering just like those Russians, who the Americans called the worst monsters in the world when they were doing the same exact fucking thing.

  47. 47
    geg6 says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Well, you Firebaggers/”progressives” don’t seem to me to be any more sane or realistic about anything. I am done with both sides. I just need to find my own sweet spot and figure out if anyone else has the same one. Seems, by the looks of this thread, that I’m not as alone as I thought I was.

  48. 48
    Svensker says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    It’s extremely weird that Americans want the people we are at war with to approve of the experience. Generally speaking that’s not how it works.

    Well, that’s why Americans are so exceptional. Other people loooovvveee our fucking with them.

  49. 49
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Fuck! A Duck: That’s different – India was British!

  50. 50
    Suffern ACE says:

    I guess this is just an unrelated question, but how exactly does one conduct an opinion survey in Afghanistan?

  51. 51
    Chris says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    This

    @geg6:

    And this.

    People who think nothing of subjecting the populations of other countries to massive injury, death and suffering are a dime a dozen and always have been.

    But only in America are these people smug, self-righteous and narcissistic enough that they actually expect their victims to get right up and thank them.

  52. 52
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Culture of Truth: I am sure most Indians would beg to differ.

  53. 53
    cleek says:

    @Chris:

    But only in America are these people smug, self-righteous and narcissistic enough that they actually expect their victims to get right up and thank them.

    oh now, Kipling wasn’t American, and way back in 1899, he captured the essence of what it means to be a thankless bringer-of-civilization in a world of ungrateful brutes:

    Take up the White Man’s burden
    Send forth the best ye breed
    Go bind your sons to exile
    To serve your captives’ need;
    To wait in heavy harness,
    On fluttered folk and wild
    Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
    Half-devil and half-child.

    Take up the White Man’s burden
    In patience to abide,
    To veil the threat of terror
    And check the show of pride;
    By open speech and simple,
    An hundred times made plain
    To seek another’s profit,
    And work another’s gain.

    Take up the White Man’s burden
    The savage wars of peace
    Fill full the mouth of Famine
    And bid the sickness cease;
    And when your goal is nearest
    The end for others sought,
    Watch sloth and heathen Folly
    Bring all your hopes to nought.

    etc.

    “sloth and heathen Folly” heh. good stuff.

    a modern day version might be found in Lileks’ classic shout out to Salam Pak:

    Hey, Salam? Fuck you. I know you’re the famous giggly blogger who gave us all a riveting view of the inner circle before the war, and thus know more about the situation than I do. Granted. But there’s a picture on the front page of my local paper today: third Minnesotan killed in Iraq. He died doing what you never had the stones to do: pick up a rifle and face the Ba’athists. You owe him.

    Cut the clever café pose; drop the sneer. That “Rambo” crap is old. Iraq needs grown-ups. Be one.

    tough talk, from a tough writer

  54. 54
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @cleek: What a condescending SOB!

  55. 55
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    I’d say that overcoming the logistical problems as well as avoiding having your ass shot clean off are an impediment to accurate polling. The poll mentioned in the OP, for instance, clearly didn’t reach those Afghans who enjoy being bombed.

  56. 56
    Unabogie says:

    While I am against this war, anyone who voted for Barack Obama did so knowing that he promised this. I voted for him anyway because while I disagreed with him on this, I agreed with him on many other things.

    Now, on the idea that people will stay home in 2012, or stop donating, or stop canvassing: Barack Obama is not a liberal Republican. He is a liberal. He believes in universal health care, social security, an end to DADT, and civil unions. He also believes that the problems we face need to be tackled as adults, so he’s willing to find common ground with people who disagree with him. He wrote a whole book about this, and explained it pretty well.

    Now, who he finds common ground with depends on who he needs to convince to get something done. In health care, he needed the Blue Dogs. Couldn’t pass a damn thing without the votes of Lieberman, Nelson, and Bayh. Now, it’s the GOP. So he’ll make deals with them.

    But here’s the rub: it’s your fault. Yes you. Yours. Wanna know why? Because you didn’t donate, or canvass, or vote, in 2010. You stayed home or didn’t try very hard and you allowed the GOP to be in power. If you had spent the last two years telling everyone you know about why they should vote Democratic (and liberal Democratic to boot), instead of why Obama sucks, why Harry Reid sucks, why the ACA is a “shit sandwich”, and why both parties are the same, you, yes YOU could have changed the results of the last election, and there would be no GOP majority to make deals with.

    So, if you’re thinking about staying home, or not donating, or not trying in 2012, it’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a fact: the GOP will take over. Sarah Palin will become President, Speaker Boehner will keep his gavel, and Mitch McConnell will be in charge. It’s not me trying to scare you into voting Democratic, against your ideals. You did it in 2010, the GOP won. We did it in 2000, Bush won. It’s how the world works. When it happens in 2012, don’t blame the Democrats or their strategy. You’re a democrat and you’ve chosen your strategy, and I’m telling you right now how it’ll end so don’t bitch when it happens.

    Kthxbai

  57. 57
    Culture of Truth says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: I added the exclamation for extra snark

  58. 58
    Alwhite says:

    Phil Ochs:
    Come, get out of the way, boys
    Quick, get out of the way
    You’d better watch what you say, boys
    Better watch what you say
    We’ve rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
    And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
    So bring your daughters around to the port
    ‘Cause we’re the Cops of the World, boys
    We’re the Cops of the World
    We pick and choose as please, boys
    Pick and choose as please
    You’d best get down on your knees, boys
    Best get down on your knees
    We’re hairy and horny and ready to shack
    And we don’t care if you’re yellow or black
    Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back
    ‘Cause we’re the Cops of the World, boys
    We’re the Cops of the World
    Our boots are needing a shine, boys
    Boots are needing a shine
    But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys
    Coca-Cola is fine
    We’ve got to protect all our citizens fair
    So we’ll send a battalion for everyone there
    And maybe we’ll leave in a couple of years
    ‘Cause we’re the Cops of the World, boys
    We’re the Cops of the World
    And dump the reds in a pile, boys
    Dump the reds in a pile
    You’d better wipe off that smile, boys
    Better wipe off that smile
    We’ll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
    And we’ll find you a leader that you can elect
    Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck
    ‘Cause we’re the Cops of the World, boys
    We’re the Cops of the World
    And clean the johns with a rag, boys
    Clean the johns with a rag
    If you like you can use your flag, boys
    If you like you can use your flag
    We’ve got too much money we’re looking for toys
    And guns will be guns and boys will be boys
    But we’ll gladly pay for all we destroy
    ‘Cause we’re the Cops of the World, boys
    We’re the Cops of the World
    Please stay off of the grass, boys
    Please stay off of the grass
    Here’s a kick in the ass, boys
    Here’s a kick in the ass
    We’ll smash down your doors, we don’t bother to knock
    We’ve done it before, so why all the shock
    We’re the biggest and the toughest kids on the block
    And we’re the Cops of the World, boys
    We’re the Cops of the World
    And when we butchered your sons, boys
    When we butchered your sons
    Have a stick of our gum, boys
    Have a stick of our bubble gum
    We own half the world, oh say can you see
    And the name for our profits is democracy
    So, like it or not, you will have to be free
    ‘Cause we’re the Cops of the World, boys
    We’re the Cops of the World

  59. 59
    Ash Can says:

    @Unabogie: Thank you. This is one of the most sensible comments I’ve ever read on this site.

  60. 60
    Corner Stone says:

    @geg6: What’s humorous to me is that you somehow agree with the definition imposed on me by others here who disagree with my analysis.
    Yet the things you have been writing here recently are a far stronger denunciation than anything I have said.
    Certainly more emotional and despairing at least.
    So who’s the fucking firebagger now?

  61. 61
    bkny says:

    and all at the behest of mr nobel laureate….

    remember when you were proud of that moment.

  62. 62
    Alwhite says:

    @Unabogie:

    Actually I did caucus, canvas, donate & vote D, and liberal D where possible, in 2010. I save my whining for the online family here & the like.

    I regularly tell my elected reps what I think on current events & find one of two reaction:
    Sen Franken & Rep Ellison: “Thanks I feel pretty much the same way & am working hard to make it so.”
    Sen Klobuchar: “Thanks for sharing with the Senator, she will be speaking & voting against your best interests anyway.”

    Since all 3 are Dems I and all like minded activists are not going to move the meter one inch in DC from here. It is not us that they lost it is the “low information” voter.

  63. 63
    Dennis SGMM says:

    @Unabogie:

    While I am against this war, anyone who voted for Barack Obama did so knowing that he promised this.

    He sure did. OTOH, I was hoping that if he was as smart as he appeared to be he might change his mind if it became apparent that this is a war which we cannot win in any conventional sense. I even went so far as to believe that as a leader he would require the military to provide some simple goals and benchmarks in the interest of discerning whether or not we could accomplish anything concrete.

  64. 64
    Oscar Leroy says:

    But we have to stay in Afghanistan so the Taliban doesn’t give their nuclear bombs to al-Qaeda. Or something.

  65. 65
    geg6 says:

    @Unabogie:

    Go fuck yourself. I really don’t need another goddam lecture from an Obot. I need it about as much as I need another from Jane Hamsher and Glenn Greenwald and about as much as I need one from Palin and Newt Gingrich.

    People like you are too stupid and blind to take seriously at this point. I’m willing to bet I’ve been at this game a lot longer than you and I really don’t give a damn how many times you call Obama a liberal, he’s not. I knew and know liberals. Obama is not one of them and never was. I knew that going in, but I really didn’t think he’d be so massively and disastrously ineffective. And that’s what he is at this point, and he has no one to blame but himself. He will most likely get my vote, but he does not have any claim whatsoever on my enthusiasm or cash. He chose that path, not me.

  66. 66
    Corner Stone says:

    @Unabogie: WOTD.

  67. 67
    Unabogie says:

    @Alwhite:

    Here’s my thought on this. The low information voter gets his information from people he knows and what he watches. Since none of the “base” were telling their friends at work how much the Democrats were working to help improve their lives, and the “professional left” only gets on TV to complain about Obama, then who’s the blame for the failure of Democratic messaging? Aren’t we Democrats? Aren’t we capable of talking? We are, but what we’ve been saying is almost universally negative. Who on TV (save Rachel Maddow) has anything nice to say about Barack Obama and the Democrats? Why isn’t it on us to change this?

    Look, it may be a lost cause. I think it is, sometimes. But look at the GOS. “More and better Democrats”? More like “more and worse Republicans”. That’s the only outcome I see from this 2 year tantrum.

  68. 68
    geg6 says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m pissed which might explain the emotion.

    As for me being a Firebagger, I’d rather be dead or a Republican.

  69. 69
    geg6 says:

    @Unabogie:

    Since none of the “base” were telling their friends at work how much the Democrats were working to help improve their lives,

    Cite, please. Because this is not how I experienced it.

  70. 70
    Unabogie says:

    @Dennis SGMM:

    Ok, and he is moving that way. They’re talking about starting the draw down this coming year. Want to know what will help? Giving him political breathing room and support. A popular president can make this happen. As long as his opponents smell blood in the water, they’ll oppose anything he does and get away with it. How about identify who the real opponents will be on this and start making it HARD to oppose the drawdown?

  71. 71
    Unabogie says:

    @geg6:

    Ed Schulz? Cenk Uyger? David Sorota? Jane Hamsher? Paul Krugman? Frank Rich? The entire readership of Daily Kos? My mom thinks Ed Schulz is the base, and that Obama has lost the base. She gets her news from cable TV.

    Where is the support coming from?

    ETA: You were asking about people at work. I think this goes to what people watch on TV, and repeat at work. Just like there’s a Village Consensus, there’s a Liberal Consensus, evidenced by the usual liberal pundits, and their narrative has taken hold.

  72. 72
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @soonergrunt:

    I’m curious: which of those poll results do you think justify our presence in Afghanistan?

  73. 73
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @Unabogie:

    While I am against this war, anyone who voted for Barack Obama did so knowing that he promised this.

    Yup, just like he promised no tax cuts for rich people.

    Barack Obama is not a liberal Republican. He is a liberal.

    Hahahahahahahahaha!

  74. 74
    srv says:

    The premise really is a lie. McChrystal did not cut down on the airstrikes. In fact, some of the most publically embarrassing strikes occurred during his tenure. It was just another example of the press lapping up whatever came out of the wonder boys mouth.

  75. 75
    Earl Butz says:

    If you read the history of the vote for the Civil Rights Act you will see it was mostly one man, Lyndon Johnson, that hectored, browbeat, threatened and cajoled those Dixicraps into passing a bill they knew would kill most of them.

    @Alwhite: Yep. And the sad truth is that for all his flaws (and he was a savagely flawed human being) LBJ had a will to get things done that no president after him has had.

    The Civil Rights Act broke the Democratic party. LBJ knew it would, although he predicted that they’d lose the South for a generation and he was wrong about that – it’s been two so far and every sign is that the poison is getting worse, not better. But he understood that there is a price to pay for getting things done, that there are winners and losers, that he would win on civil rights and the Democrats would lose, and that was a price he decided he could live with.

    Obama’s only flaw, and it’s a bad one, is that he, like so many other Democrats, is addicted to the idea that the “win-win” scenario/outcome is desirable. It isn’t. I want the Republicans to lose on a lot of fronts. I want them to lose so badly that they wake up ever morning and drive to work looking for arborists working on the side of the road so that they can pull over and leap feet-first into the tree crew’s woodchippers.

    Reagan understood this. George W’s brain trust really understood it. No post-Johnson Democrat has, and the results are plain for all to see.

  76. 76
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @Corner Stone:

    “The people screaming “firebagger” the loudest are in a bit of denial at the moment. ”

    Where did this “firebagger” thing come from, again? I forgot, or it was never clear to begin with.

  77. 77
    geg6 says:

    @Unabogie:

    Well, since the only person on that list that I read is Paul Krugman, I guess I missed all the polling and on-the-scene reports from every Democrat’s (who still has a job, that is) workplace that they published/aired on how no one was talking to anyone about the good Dems want to do. Guess they missed my workplace, which sorta calls into question your whole theory here.

  78. 78
    El Cid says:

    What?

    the BBC finds that 73 percent of Afghans say that U.S. air strikes are “unacceptable.”

    Clearly these underdeveloped peasants do not understand that we have a successful new Counter Intelligence SURGE strategy in which stabilized grease spots spread.

  79. 79

    @Zifnab:

    To geg6

    /hug We’re here for you, buddy.

    Yes. Even if you aren’t standing as far to the left as I am.

    I can get pretty radical at times but I know that. It is good have a more moderate voice in the mix.

  80. 80
    Stillwater says:

    Here’s the part I liked:

    Back then, restrictions from General Stanley McChrystal, then the commander of the war, had all but stopped the air war entirely — and two-thirds of Afghans still disapproved of it. So NATO might have a statistical warning sign, now that its planes recently tallied 2,600 attack sorties between June and October, a 50 percent increase over the same period in 2009.

    According to the writer, reducing airstrikes to about 1750 over a five month period constitutes “all but stopping the air war entirely”.

    Those ungrateful fucking Afghanis! Don’t they understand American good will!

  81. 81

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    What I am wondering is what the hell is Obama thinking and why has he been trying so hard to make nice with the Republicans when it has been obvious to anyone, that they hate his very existence.

    They do. Lots of people want the man wiped from the face of the earth.

    Secret Service has a big job.

  82. 82
  83. 83
    meh says:

    Just so it doesn’t slip by un-noticed. The court reviewing the Awlaki execution hearing has stated that it is a) permissible to kill US Citizens abroad and b) that the action is not reviewable by a court of law. This is your country. America, fuck yeah.

  84. 84
    Oscar Leroy says:

    “What I am wondering is what the hell is Obama thinking and why has he been trying so hard to make nice with the Republicans”

    Maybe he identifies more with Republicans.

    I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown

    http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3263

  85. 85
    Corner Stone says:

    @Oscar Leroy: Midnight Marauder nutpicked it out of comments at FDL, IIRC.
    It went viral here due to some tribal mentality. So now if you disagree with the acceptable storyline you are a firebagger.
    Although I was thrilled to see now that the charge of “racist” and “racism” is making a strong comeback here.

  86. 86
    geg6 says:

    @meh:

    Well, all I can say to that is meh. Seriously, I’m supposed to give a shit what happens to a self-described traitor working in a foreign country to kill innocent and law-abiding American citizens? Really? You far-lefties are insane. Just as insane as the far-righties.

  87. 87
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Thank you. But now I wonder: what partnership with Grover Norquist?

  88. 88
    Unabogie says:

    @geg6:

    Hey, it’s possible. I read the political blogs more than most people (and more than I should) so it’s possible I have a skewed idea about what’s happening outside my sphere. I do hear the political memes being repeated in polite company. I read them on the blogs, hear them on TV, then hear them repeated by people I talk to.

    I know a lot of “middle of the road” people who just never hear anything positive about Democrats on the nightly news or talk radio. KPOJ is pretty damn negative every time I turn it on. I don’t know anyone who didn’t follow closely even mildly support the ACA until I tell them about all the ways it helped me and friends.

    So since there’s no FOX for our side, no one is out there helping. And besides us, there’s no one else. The results are predictable. Every time I say this, I’m told I just want people to clap louder. Ok, yeah. Let’s try that for a bit, see if we get a better result than a Teabagger landslide in 2012?

  89. 89
    Corner Stone says:

    @Steeplejack: Yep. And here we are a year later.
    All in all I find it fascinating.

  90. 90
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @geg6:

    So saying the government can’t just kill whoever it wants for any reason, or no reason, without a trial or a warrant or any kind of oversight at all makes one a fringe whacko? What’s the matter with you?

  91. 91
    sparky says:

    @meh: no, not exactly. i haven’t seen the opinion itself, but apparently the District Judge dismissed the case on standing grounds, so he never reached the actual arguments.

    not that i am thrilled with this decision. it does, however, postpone the potential judicial capitulation till a later date.

    if the courts do permit this, whether by affirming it or otherwise sanctioning it by refusing to entertain it, that will be the day you know you live in a true police state. why? because that’s the day your government can murder you and not have to explain why to anyone. ever.

  92. 92
    geg6 says:

    @Oscar Leroy:

    Nothing the matter with me other than I am unwilling to go balls to the wall supporting a self-admitted traitor who is working, marginally successfully it seems, to try to kill innocent people.

    Yes, I’m so horrible that I am fine with that.

  93. 93
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @sparky:

    But Obama has to do this because the Republicans forced him to, I mean Democrats didn’t say enough nice things about him, I mean, firebaggers! Palin! Terrorists! ! ! ! !

  94. 94
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @geg6:

    No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

    Screw the Constitution! Let’s just have everyone do whatever they want! That’s how you have a free society!

    “The government says he’s a bad guy, so I believe them!” Have you paid any attention to anything during your life? I don’t suppose you still expect to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

    “Yes, I’m so horrible that I am fine with that. ”

    You are a horrible person if you think the president can order someone’s death for any reason, or no reason. Why don’t you go back to whining about how *sob sob* no one writes a blog that represents you? Let’s see: you don’t like liberals and you think the government should be able to kill whomever it wants. There is someone who represents you after all:

    http://www.gop.com/

    Have fun with your new friends.

  95. 95
    Keith G says:

    @Oscar Leroy: The poll of combatant commanders?

  96. 96
    Unabogie says:

    @Oscar Leroy:

    Look, Oscar, who won in 2010? You think you bear none of the blame for this?

  97. 97
    soonergrunt says:

    @Oscar Leroy: What makes you think that poll results can justify anything? But I suppose if you need it, there is this snippet from the BBC report:

    But support for foreign involvement in Afghanistan is still very strong – with 63% saying they back the presence of US forces and 54% supporting Nato/Isaf.

    Just 11% expressed support for Taliban fighters.

  98. 98
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @geg6:

    “There is no one out there for me. No one. Sigh. Poor, poor me!”

    “But I’m a tough-guy balls-to-the-wall terrorist fighter, you betcha!”

    Pathetic. “I’m an old school liberal”. Which old school liberal thought the government should be able to kill whomever it wants without even a trial–Thomas Jefferson? John Lock? James Madison?

  99. 99
    Steeplejack says:

    @Oscar Leroy:

    Have you heard about this thing called the Google? It is really “the bomb,” as the yoots would say. Here is the very first thing that pops up when you enter “Jane Hamsher Grover Norquist.”

    I will be billing you for further info-search requests.

  100. 100
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @soonergrunt:

    “What makes you think that poll results can justify anything? ”

    Haha ) You seemed to think they supported something in post #12.

    Wow, slightly more than half of people in Afghanistan support our staying there. I guess we need to continue to blow up innocent people with predator drones, spend billions we don’t have, and sacrifice soldiers for no good cause.

  101. 101
    Chyron HR says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Midnight Marauder nutpicked it out of comments at FDL, IIRC.

    WAAAH! HOW DARE YOU CALL US BY THE NAME WE MADE UP FOR OURSELVES?

    No wonder you and the Tea Party Patriots (f/k/a the Teabaggers) became such fast friends.

  102. 102
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Wow, that is so incriminating. Both Jane Hamsher and Grover Norquist wanted an investigation into possible criminal activity. How awful. What kind of person wants people who might have done something illegal to be investigated? And they both signed a letter, too!

    In 2010, Norquist joined the advisory board of GOProud, a political organization representing conservative gays, lesbians, transgendered people, and their allies, for which he was criticized by the Family Research Council.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

    Well, I guess we all have to abandon our support for gays and lesbians.

  103. 103
    Oscar Leroy says:

    @Chyron HR:

    No wonder you and the Tea Party Patriots (f/k/a the Teabaggers) became such fast friends.

    Yup, that’s us. We FDL readers just love us some Teabaggers. Say, that reminds me: time to wash my colonial militia costume.

  104. 104
    Unabogie says:

    @geg6:

    Hey, I was being pretty civil with you. Go fuck yourself, if that’s all you have to offer. You whine that no one understands your politics, then you tell me to fuck off for trying to have a polite conversation with you about mine?

    Sheesh.

  105. 105
    Alwhite says:

    Mr. Schneier hits the nail on the head so hard the iron mine collapses!

    Close the Washington Monument

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/a.....washi.html

    Seeing this is so late in the thread I may post this again in the next open thread, it really is a must read.

  106. 106
  107. 107
    sparky says:

    to the powers that handle the moderation queue: for some reason attempting to add a forgotten linky put my prior message in moderation.

    here’s the link

  108. 108
    JohnR says:

    It’s been a decade, now, and I feel even more like I’m living inside the world of Spaceballs. I wonder if Obama ever feels like Dark Helmet: “I _knew_ it – I’m surrounded by Assholes!”

  109. 109
    Corner Stone says:

    @Chyron HR: You are a true delight my friend.

  110. 110
    The Republic of Stupidity says:

    Awesome. The “good” news from that poll is that we are viewed as equally culpable as Al Qaeda.

    Indeed… sweeeeeeeeeet…

    And when we deign to waterboard, we become the moral equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazis, and the Khmer Rouge…

    Woo hoo!

    American exceptionalism at work…

  111. 111
    sparky says:

    @Oscar Leroy: i kinda like this recent effort–
    @Unabogie:

    But here’s the rub: it’s your fault. Yes you. Yours. Wanna know why? Because you didn’t donate, or canvass, or vote, in 2010. You stayed home or didn’t try very hard and you allowed the GOP to be in power. If you had spent the last two years telling everyone you know about why they should vote Democratic (and liberal Democratic to boot), instead of why Obama sucks, why Harry Reid sucks, why the ACA is a “shit sandwich”, and why both parties are the same, you, yes YOU could have changed the results of the last election, and there would be no GOP majority to make deals with.

    Democrats apparently weren’t Democratic enuf. does this mean the party can only be failed?

  112. 112
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @sparky: When do Democrats begin to realize that the biggest problem in this country is Republicans, not other Democrats, and begin behaving like it?

  113. 113
    sparky says:

    @geg6: @Oscar Leroy: know what this country needs? more duct tape and a new fear calendar err color system. that darn constitution never worked quite right anyways, so we’ll just tape over those parts.

  114. 114
    Unabogie says:

    @sparky:

    It means, if you don’t like GOP policies, stop helping them get elected.

    GREENSTEABAGGERS
    Obama Palin

    Figure out who on this continuum is more to your liking and work to move the public your way. You’re failing at this.

    ETA: FYWP. I drew a graph and it ate it.

  115. 115
    sparky says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): i see no evidence of what you are talking about other than a few people in the blogosphere who like hyperbole. if you want to claim that’s the mass of Ds that’s your prerogative. besides, isn’t everyone here always trumpeting polls showing all Ds love Obama all the time?

    but in answer to your question, i think the answer is perhaps when Democrats start acting like they represent their party and their voters, rather than representing the people who pay them to participate in this charade of a republic.

    @Unabogie: i’m not sure you are a judge of my failing(s) when your response comment suggests that you missed what i did there.

  116. 116
    soonergrunt says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Never. SATSQ.

    “I’m not a member of any organized political party. I’m a Democrat.”–Roy Rogers

  117. 117
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    When do Democrats begin to realize that the biggest problem in this country is Republicans, and Nelson, not other Democrats, and begin behaving like it?

    I forgot to include Nelson.

  118. 118
    meh says:

    @sparky:

    Here is the germane quote:

    To be sure, this Court recognizes the somewhat unsettling nature of its conclusion — that
    there are circumstances in which the Executive’s unilateral decision to kill a U.S. citizen overseas
    is “constitutionally committed to the political branches” and judicially unreviewable. But this
    case squarely presents such a circumstance. The political question doctrine requires courts to
    engage in a fact-specific analysis of the “particular question” posed by a specific case, see El-
    Shifa, 607 F.3d at 841 (quoting Baker, 369 U.S. at 211), and the doctrine does not contain any
    “carve-out” for cases involving the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens. While it may be true
    that “the political question doctrine wanes” where the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens are at
    stake, Abu Ali, 350 F. Supp. at 64, it does not become inapposite. Indeed, in one of the only two
    cases since Baker v. Carr in which the Supreme Court has dismissed a case on political question
    grounds, the plaintiffs were U.S. citizens alleging violations of their constitutional rights.
    See Gilligan v. Morgan, 413 U.S. 1, 3 (1973).

    @geg6:

    love it. I’m a loony leftie because i think the right to arbitrarily assassinate people is bad. Jerkoff.

  119. 119
    sparky says:

    @Unabogie:

    It means, if you don’t like GOP policies, stop helping them get elected.

    false dichotomy based on a false premise. first, the false premise that someone who is unhappy with Obama/Ds must, by what i can only* call magic thinking necessarily be incapable of recognizing any difference between Rs and Ds. i don’t care what you want to call that, but it’s a demonstrable falsehood worthy of a huckster.

    false dichotomy: this is not an either or choice. sometimes, it’s true, there are only two choices. at the moment there is some truth to that, but that ignores the problem because it doesn’t fix how we got here.

    by the end of this year it had come down to two choices, both of which stink, by virtue of the masterful incompetence of the Democrats in power in DC. they’ve had since 2006 to figure this out, and since 2008 they’ve also had the White House. and yet they cannot negotiate their way out of a paper bag, and when they are not out committing war crimes or ignoring the Constitution they are busy giving away bits of the republic to bankers and insurance companies. people didn’t vote R because they cared about the tax exemptions or Palin or the imbeciles in the little box; they voted R because the Ds have done pathetically little with respect to how the average American sees things. and then you come along and say, no, no the problem isn’t the people in power, it’s that there aren’t enough of them in office. sorry, no sale.

    shorter me: i think you are mistaken in your analysis. the problem isn’t more Democrats. the problem is more people who represent your intrests.

    *there are a lot of other terms i could use here, but i believe you were arguing with me in good faith.

  120. 120
  121. 121
    Steeplejack says:

    @soonergrunt:

    Will Rogers. I suspect Roy Rogers was, or became, a flaming Orange County Republican.

  122. 122
    Tsulagi says:

    @soonergrunt:From your first link…

    The poll found 27% of people felt attacks against US or Nato troops were justified – though 64% disagreed.

    Seems every country has their 27%ers. Wonder how you say teabagger in Pashto.

    Found this one a little surprising…

    But support for foreign involvement in Afghanistan is still very strong – with 63% saying they back the presence of US forces and 54% supporting Nato

    Would’ve thought NATO would have the higher number as we’re the face of foreign involvement. Shit, that 63% is significantly higher than Obama’s approval rating from Americans, and blows away the 11% poll number that like a little Taliban in their life. Afghans heart us.

  123. 123
    geg6 says:

    @Oscar Leroy:

    Why don’t you go back to whining about how sob sob no one writes a blog that represents you?

    You really are dickhead. And can’t read, either, apparently. Since I have never whined about not having a blog that represents me, I don’t even know what you’re talking about.

  124. 124
    abo gato says:

    Question for the ages:

    If they hate us for our freedom…..

    Are they starting to like us now?

  125. 125
    soonergrunt says:

    @Steeplejack: I sit corrected.
    @Tsulagi: They don’t like having bombs dropped on them, to be sure. Who would?
    The difference here is that these people understand that their lives are better (for the time being) because of the US forces (Que the outrage). That doesn’t mean that they want their country occupied indefinitely.
    The Taliban are seen by many as agents of Pakistan. Pakistan is hated with a passion that is unbelievable until you actually see it.

  126. 126
    ruemara says:

    @Oscar Leroy:

    You find a statement of opinion, which in no way says that he supports or admires the direction this country swung, to mean he admires Reagan. Reagan did change the country. I may have been a kid but even I had to wonder who this clueless idiot was at the helm. And the people who found him to be great mystified me. He says ketchup is a vegetable and people take that seriously? Adults seemed to have lost their fricking minds under Reagan and lies were regularly foisted off as information. I was in my teens and pined for Carter like I pined for Narnia when Reagan was president.

  127. 127
    Tsulagi says:

    @soonergrunt:

    people understand that their lives are better (for the time being) because of the US forces.

    The poll numbers would indicate a solid majority believe that. Nice to see that majority apparently know U.S. forces don’t intentionally or just carelessly target civilians unlike their Taliban brethren. Outside that country some seem to have a hard time grasping that fact.

    Que the outrage

    3..2..1..

  128. 128
    JohnR says:

    @soonergrunt:

    Que the outrage

    que?

  129. 129
    soonergrunt says:

    @JohnR: DAMMIT!
    “cue” the outrage.
    lol, thanks.

  130. 130
    Socraticsilence says:

    @Oscar Leroy:

    Pretty sure its a product of Jane Hamsher’s moronic- “lets work with Grover Norquist” idea.

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