What happens when you add two legal substances together? They magically become deadly and illegal:
The White House on Wednesday threw its support behind a ban on beverages that infuse alcohol and caffeine.
Drug czar Gil Kerlikowske said he welcomed a ruling by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) that would effectively ban drinks like Four Loko and Joost, which have come under scrutiny for their alleged role in several cases of alcohol intoxication on college campuses.
“These products are designed, branded, and promoted to encourage binge drinking, and I commend the FDA for acting promptly to curb their sale,” Kerlikowske said in a statement. “These drinks are especially unhealthy and dangerous because they combine alcohol and caffeine — and present a further concern when used by young people.”
Does this mean I can expect a no-knock raid this Sunday because I put a little Bailey’s and Bushmills in my coffee before a Steelers game?
BGinCHI
Alcohol Libertarians unite!
We have nothing to lose but our delicious, delicious chains.
Unabogie
Those things are poison. Look, you’re free to mix whatever rat poison cocktail you want. Drano and Dr. Pepper. Have at it. Should Dr. Drano Pepper be legal to sell in stores?
You’re way off on this, Cole.
MattR
I’ve got no problem with this. In order to add caffeine to alcholic beverages, the legal standard is that the addition is ‘generally recognized as safe’. If the FDA believes this is not the case, they have a duty to get involved.
And I am a bit disappointed in the over the top strawman comparing a commercially sold product to what you choose to do in your own home.
brendancalling
that’s some grade-a stupid right there.
so does this mean Red Bull and vodka cocktails are illegal now?
RobertB
Yeah, not sure how this is qualitatively different from a Red Bull and vodka.
edit: And Brendan beats me by a nose. :)
A Duck
OMFG, you mean college students drink sometimes harmful amounts of alcohol? Surely you must be joking.
Tom
So, who’s up for field testing my latest home cleaning product? Mix one part Clorox with one part Windex: the result will blow your mind.
(No, seriously, it will literally blow your mind, as well as your lungs and trachea. Under no circumstances should you ever mix these two legal substances together.)
MattR
@brendancalling: @RobertB: I don’t think the FDA has any authority to try and regulate mixed drinks in a bar. I am sure that they would want to ban selling a can that has Red Bull and vodka pre-mixed.
Tim I
Cole, you are off-base on this. These beverages are designed to encourage binge drinking by young adults and they are marketed to that group.
I like a splash of bourbon in my coffee on occasion, but this is not at all comparable. I thought it was only elderly women that drank Baileys.
WyldPirate
@Unabogie:
I guess Irish Coffee should be made illegal, too.
Damn glad the Administration is thinking of the children–and promoting ineffectual solutions similar to full body scans.
We’re all bed wetters now.
Sloegin
This idiocy started in Washington State with some college students getting messed up on Four Loko. Our (D) governor went all Super-Nanny to deal with the problem, and now it’s escalated.
Another one of Gov Gregoire’s episodes a couple years ago was to push to make online gambling a felony after a couple college students gambled away their tuition.
I’m pretty sure college students having the right to be idiots is enshrined somewhere in the Federalist Papers…
Rosalita
Kahlua’s illegal??
Waynski
The administration is so busy putting their ass in the air on tax cuts, I guess they needed a distraction by looking tough on… who cares. Can’t anybody play this game?
locus
Based upon your Bailey’s + Bushmills + coffee analogy, I can deduce that you know jack shit about the way FDA regulates food.
Imagine this hypothetical:
There’s a drug A which has been approved by FDA as safe and effective.
Drug B has also been approved by FDA as safe and effective.
Unfortunately, the combination of Drug A and Drug B together into Combo Drug C absolutely destroys the liver.
Should FDA approve Combo Drug C based on the fact that both Drug A and Drug B (when taken appropriately) don’t cause harm?
I fully recognize that my hypothetical is somewhat off, since both caffeine and alcohol are regulated as foods and are “Generally Regarded As Safe”. However, your logic is the same.
In addition, nothing would stop the US public from combining caffeine and alcohol on their own. FDA has taken issue with the safety of a product that sells it already combined and is labeled as such.
Ash Can
@RobertB: Are they sold that way — i.e., mixed together in the can, with a high alcohol content that’s concealed by the flavor?
Agree with Unabogie et al. here. These things are designed to be narcotic booby traps, and the FDA is within its rights to act. This is not idiocy.
The Dangerman
Agreed; as someone who lives in a college town where binge drinking has caused a variety of horrors, this shit has to be shut down.
brendancalling
I’m with cole on this one. It’s stupid. The problem isn’t the mixing of caffeine and alcohol, it’s the binge-drinking part of it. Four Loko or whatever it’s called has 12% alcohol, about what you get in a glass of wine, but in a 16-ounce package.
anything that feeds into college binge drinking is generally a bad thing, but banning four loko isn’t going to stop college kids from drinking themselves to death. the key is educating students about the effects of alcohol.
General Stuck
Back in the day, one of my favorite party methods was speed and booze, could drink all night in huge quantity, or all weekend and party hardy. And when I couldn’t get speed, street doses of pure caffeine would get the job done. Of course, I was young and quite insane for mixing upper and downer drugs, and lucky to have survived.
I just don’t think you can wise up the young, or certain segments of them, with more regulation, because like myself, only actually doing dumb stuff was my only learnable teacher. So, while the intent may be noble, expecting success is likely futile.
kdaug
@Tom: Damnit, beat me to it. Ammonia-chloride gas. It’s a doozy.
Xecky Gilchrist
@A Duck: you mean college students drink sometimes harmful amounts of alcohol? Surely you must be joking.
I know, right? This kind of thing never happened when I was in college, except for on days whose names ended in “y”, before and after midnight.
But if the FDA has reason to think these things are dangerous, I don’t mind the ban, unless it’s enforced like other drug bans (i.e. with excessive force.)
mrmcd
Did I really just read that a White House official supports an investigation into whether or not an alcoholic beverage contributed to alcohol intoxication?
They really have nothing better, at all, anywhere in the whole country, to be upset about this week?
WyldPirate
@Tim I:
Good gravy. It’s not like we didn’t already have a “binge-drinking problem” with young people.
What do you propose we do about it? Prohibition? that worked so well last time.
For fucks sake a bunch of dumbass kids pass out from drinking too much and everyone loses their shit. C’mon, goddamnit, we can’t be protected from every fucking risk in the world.
You would accomplish a lot more from a health and wellness standpoint by banning fast foods.
El Tiburon
No, but you can expect a smart-ass response from yours truly.
Spiked coffee for football watching? I picture you knocking it back while eating a Hungry Man frozen dinner on a TV tray while carrying on a conversation with Tunch.
samson
Lot’s of things that are separately legal are not safe when mixed.
ammonia and chlorine
drinking and driving
barbituates and alcohol
etc.
ruemara
Have to concur with the naysayers on this, Cole. I work in a college town. This stuff is targeted to kids and they can get severly ill from being over-caffeinated, throw in the booze and you have a lose lose. It’s not as simple as Tia Maria (much better than Kahlua, jackals) and coffee. And if anyone has the will to ship me some Tia, I would bless you.
Angela
I talked to an ER doc this weekend, because my 18 year old son (idiot college student) was drinking these with shots of vodka as a chaser and was brought into the ER by campus cops. The doc told me they are lethal because the caffeine masks the intoxication until the kids are close to alcohol poisoning and that his weekends are full of kids in the ER from drinking them. When my son gets the bill I’m hoping it will break through his stupidity.
Fwiffo
It’s true. I died from all the rum and coke I drank in college.
The Dangerman
@locus:
I’m far too lazy to look up the recipe, but Meth is made from entirely legal products.
ed drone
Experience is the best teacher …
and a fool will learn by no other.
That said, it is the binge part, not what they drink, that’s the problem, but making it deadly easy is, well, deadly. The problem is how to mitigate the activity (binge drinking) without limiting legal activities, such as Interstate commerce. I’m sure there will be court fights about this, and the fallout from those contests will tell us a lot about “what the country is coming to.”
Ed
Zifnab
Down a handful of Mentos and a big swig of Diet Coke. Then get back to me.
Joseph Nobles
Jeez, you guys seem tense. Rum and Coke, anyone?
jrg
I’m loving the concern trolls on this thread. How about we just raise the drinking age to 40?
’cause, you know, 21 has been so effective at keeping alcohol out of the hands of college students. Besides, don’t you need a bunch of expensive lab equipment (and technical knowledge) to mix Bourbon with Coke?
Oh, yeah, I forgot… mixing caffeine and alcohol is just like mixing bleach and ammonia. Morons.
WyldPirate
@General Stuck:
This. A million times over.
Sometimes, people are going to do shit that eliminates them prematurely from the gene pool.
A Duck
Hope they never hear about Steel Reserve, which, BTW, should only be enjoyed responsibly from a brandy snifter (so as not to waste the essential flavors).
kdaug
@General Stuck:
Ding!
College is where people learn about many things, including how to do stupid shit. If you survive without killing yourself (or someone else), you win.
Your liver will hate you in 20 years, but that’s what dead tea-totallers are for.
(Yes, I’m an asshole).
MattR
@WyldPirate:
So why should we allow corporations to target those people in an attempt to profit off it?
FWIW – a 23.5 oz can has the equivalent caffeine of three cups of coffee and the alcohol of three cans of beer.
El Tiburon
@samson:
1. Teatards and oxygen
2. Closeted Republican Senators and public restrooms
3. Glen Beck and a chalk board
4. Most Balloon Juice commenters and Jane Hamsher
And that’s all I got.
MikeJ
@ruemara:
Coffee liqueurs are easy to make. Many people start with a vodka base, but I prefer brandy. I’m sure you can make it better quality than you can buy, and nobody will have to ship it to you. A thousand recipes are a short google away.
trollhattan
If they’re really 23.5 oz cans of 12-percent (24 proof) alcohol, drenched with sugar and spiked with caffeine, I can envision how youngin’s could get themselves into a serious fix chugging these things. I don’t know, pharmacologically, what all is happening to the imbiber, but the caffeine might mask or combat some of the alcohol’s effects while the drinker is on the way to a lethal dose. Each can is basically a bottle of wine.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013255746_cwustudents26m.html
I don’t remember “wine coolers” being nearly this strong. Am I “misremembering”?
Kryptik
I gotta agree with John and other folks here. Banning this isn’t gonna ban the binging. I’m sure the marketing doesn’t help, but if you want to stop the behavior…attack the behavior and the culture surrounding it, not the tools.
Sgwhiteinfla
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/11/12/2010-11-12_marylanders_want_four_loko_off_shelves_after_controversial_cocktail_blamed_for_w.html
Yeah, why ban something that has killed several college students and sent scores more to the hospital!
Seriously, you might want to use “the google” on this one before you stage a protest.
General Stuck
@ed drone:
Admittedly, I am not really up on college life these days, but if it is that easy, and is causing more kids to go this route, then I could be for the effort to modify teenage behavior by making it less easy. I will defer to those who are in this arena, whether parents or those working close to the problem.
The Dangerman
@Zifnab:
This won’t create much more than the fart from hell or projectile puking (or, if really lucky, both simultaneously) , will it?
FlipYrWhig
This post is like Rick Perry complaining about how “liberals” want to prevent you from putting salt on your food at home, as opposed to a particular effort against a particular pre-packaged product. And it’s glibertarian wankerrific to boot. John, I’m sorry, you’re having a bad week.
DMcK
@Sloegin: Actually, I was under the impression this started in NYC with gang members forcing some poor kid to drink huge amounts of Four Loko prior to beating him half to death. And the gangsta/hip-hop connection to Four Loko was pretty well-established prior to that (plenty of underground hip-hop songs practically marketing the stuff to be found out there on the YouTube). Not that this gunk is in any way healthy for kids or anyone else to drink, but the “scary black thing” component is probably a part of this as well, at least as far as its emergence into the national awareness.
scav
So, seriously, the exact same laws should apply to the sale of flintlocks and fully automatic weaponry?
maus
@Tim I: Are they banning all the carbonated fruit-flavored 12-20% ABV (depending on flavor, but often more than rated) 24 ounce beverages?
Oh no, just the ones with caffeine.
Give me a break with your nannystatisms. Alcohol is harmful, period.
Three-nineteen
I’m pretty sure it’s the 12% alcohol, not the caffeine, that leads to most of the intoxication. If these drinks had as little alcohol as, say, a Coors Light, there wouldn’t be a problem.
However, one of the companies is removing the caffeine from their drink. So you can still get 12% alcohol that tastes like an energy drink, and just down some caffeine pills.
And by the way, just because something is “branded and promoted to encourage binge drinking” does not mean that the product itself can’t be sold. If you have a problem with the branding and promotion, then you should fix that.
I really want to see the FDA ruling itself.
Max Power
Steelers game? Wouldn’t a little Ambien in your Gatorade be more appropriate?
kdaug
@trollhattan: No, you just passed out.
powderfinger
I don’t have an issue with the idea of the FDA being able to ban beverages that mix alcohol and caffeine. What I don’t like is the populist fury with which this unfolded. Just because they should be able to ban something doesn’t mean it’s ok for it to get banned because a bunch of state attorney generals and Chuck Schumer start waving cans around at press conferences. “Due Process” is supposed to mean something.
I don’t really know the details of how the FDA makes these findings or adjudications. If they went through the process and this is their finding, then fine. But the timing is pretty suspicious.
For what it’s worth, I think Four Loko is awesome and have been drinking it a lot lately. But it’s dangerous as fuck. Three cans of that stuff will make even a seasoned drinker time travel a good 10 hours, let me tell you.
WyldPirate
@MattR:
1. Because we already allow it with foods and drugs of all sorts. We have tons of legal pharmaceuticals that will kill you if used improperly. Cars will kill you if used improperly. food will kill you idf used improperly.
2. Making these drinks will have next to zero impact. Several dozens of college-aged kids–most of them drinking illegally already, btw–will die from acute alcohol poisoning this year without these drinks. Because of this, do you want to make alcohol illegal again?
You can’t protect people from their own, inherent, stupidity.
A Duck
Sgwhiteinfla: we’ll be banning cars and guns when?
Also, 23.5 oz is three cups of coffee.
gbear
You can always fall back on your Nyquil.
Perry Como
Sorry, Bud Light isn’t beer.
jrg
@Sgwhiteinfla:
Alcohol is a factor in drunk driving? That’s fascinating! I had no idea! Maybe I should learn how to use the google machine, too.
Rosalita
@ruemara:
Jackals? Huh! Some of prefer scotch to pussy coffee drinks anyway :p
ruemara
@MikeJ:
I just found one, thanks. First on my list is mead. I know a beekeeper.
And to back up the FDA, the amount of caffeine, the masking of alcohol symptoms and the nature of being young and stupid make it clear that this is a problem. The crack down on kombucha, not so much.
maus
@WyldPirate:
The kids in WA that were chugging these were using IT AS THE MIXER with vodka, for fuck’s sake.
@Sgwhiteinfla: Killed A kid, not kidS. Also, ban hard liquor, beer, and wine because they cause deaths.
All this hubbub reminds me of when the FDA banned clove cigarettes but menthols were excluded.
Nathan R
This is a direct result of several incidents in my (and Kerlikowske’s) home state of Washington, most notably my alma mater of Central Washington University. CWU is a party school of the worst kind, to be sure. But last month, nine students were hospitalized with alcohol poisoning. At a small school (around 10,000 undergrads), that’s a startling percentage.
Knowing the kind of students that choose to go to these types of schools, I’m afraid all of this attention will have the unintended consequence of lionizing beverages such as this one in the eyes of the student body. There’s never such a thing as too drunk in their minds, and the amount of caffeine in these drinks absolutely do mask the effects of the alcohol. Which leads to things like absurdly high blood alcohol levels (as high as .3 percent).
There’s a gigantic difference between a rum and coke (or even a vodka and red bull) and the drinks that Kerlikowske is talking about.
Joe Beese
Execute an American without trial? Cole approves.
Threaten his booze? Cole rages!
But then you’ve got to have a sense of priorities.
Earl Butz
That there have so far been multiple people on this thread defending the government on this has made me lose all hope for the future of this society.
Change the flag to a yellow splotch on a field of white, which will stand for the puddle of piss that we collectively stand in, and the tax cuts that will leave us unable to afford any other color of fabric dye.
jl
“Does this mean I can expect a no-knock raid this Sunday because I put a little Bailey’s and Bushmills in my coffee before a Steelers game?”
Cole will be a ‘violator’ in spirit, if not in letter.
Something ought to be done about these filthy dangerous kitchen labs where degenerates who endanger our youth mix booze and caffeine.
Need to create special surveillance units and SWAT teams. I will look for Cole’s house on an upcoming police reality show episode.
However, a bit unfair to blame on WH, since nearly every right thinking contemporary U.S. statesperson would agree.
Little Johnny ‘Bones’ Boehner, that cheap two bit hood and small time wardheeler, chain smoker, nicotine fiend, and boozehound, would agree that this is a good thing.
Sloegin
@DMcK: Certainly could be multiple incidents starting elsewhere prior; I’m just thinking the legislative push to ban started in my neck of the woods. Could be wrong about that also.
maus
@Nathan R:
Sipping a drink is too slow, that’s why the bros do shots, beer bongs, chug hard liquor, etc.
samson
Does anyone know the facts of exactly how much caffeine is in these things? More than a Coke? More than a large Starbucks? How much? If you don’t know, maybe you should find out before suggesting that the FDA need not even look into it.
As many health professionals have said: the caffeine keeps kids conscious long enough to drink a lot more of the malt liquor which tends to lead to alcohol poisoning. As I read one doctor to say in an article about this: “there is a reason you pass out when you drink to much.”
Can people still mix their own? Yep.
Will college kids still poison themselves with alcohol? Yep.
Does either of those things mean that we ought to suffer products that make alcohol poisoning more likely? Nope.
trollhattan
@kdaug:
I can honestly say after half of one, once, I went back to beer. “Mmmm, beer” /Homer
They were freakishly popular for awhile though, but at the time seemed like a beer substitute, not a sticky sweet opportunity for a ride to the ER. And yes, moms tried to get them outlawed because they were basically marketed to girls, especially after wine coolers morphed into “alcopops.”
AnotherBruce
a ruling by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) that would effectively ban drinks like Four Loko and Joost, which have come under scrutiny for their alleged role in several cases of alcohol intoxication on college campuses.
C’mon people, we’re talking about several cases of alcohol intoxication on our college campuses, this is clearly a national emergency which requires swift, poorly thought out legislation.
Suck It Up!
I don’t care.
MattR
@powderfinger: @Nathan R: FWIW, the announcement by the FDA is a culmination of a year long review not the result of recent events in the news.
bobbo
Next on the WH agenda: school uniforms.
Andrew
I think the problem is more the sugar and flavor additives the disguise the taste of alcohol enough to make it seem less alcoholic than it is. When you combine that with the caffeine, it can certainly encourage binge-drinking way more than an Irish coffee would – none of the indicators that you’re fucked up become evident until you’re over the line. Kind of like with any other kind of alcohol – everyone hits that point where one more drink goes from “Oh, that will get me really drunk, guys, maybe not.” to “Fuck yeah, why not make it three more?!?”.
The sugar and flavor just help young people sneak over that line without realizing it, and remain conscious doing so thanks to the caffeine, so they’re more likely to overdose drinking that particular drink than a drink with an equivalent, or greater, amount of alcohol. Of course, how can you possibly regulate that? “If you have caffeine and alcohol in your drink, it must also taste like crap?” I guess you could regulate the amount of sugars and flavors by volume, but that’s just going to lead to an arms race to include the sweetest sugar by unit volume and the tastiest additive by unit volume. There’s no sensible regulation I can think of here, which would make it seem to me that we need to find an alternative if these drinks truly are becoming a scourge.
Bondo
The White House is full of complete idiots. You’ve defended them every other time, what’s different with this one?
WyldPirate
@maus:
That wasn’t the question.
1. Most of the kids that die from alcohol intoxication are drinking illegally, anyway.
2. Many died well before these drinks were illegal as well.
3. Making the drinks will, at best save very few people. Kids will still die from binge drinking.
Look, I came up in the time when the drinking age was 18. I did the same thing General Stuck did up-thread–I popped speed or, better yet, did a hit or two of LSD. With the latter, it was scary how much one could drink without really feeling the intoxicating effects. I was simply lucky that I didn’t kill myself or someone else. I didn’t learn–I simply grew out of that sort of insanity.
The point is, that the proposal to ban the caffeinated alcoholic drinks isn’t the problem. The problem is one of education about the dangers of binge drinking. Banning the drinks is an ineffectual solution to the problem.
RobertB
It could be the opening move in an 11-dimensional chess gambit, whose purpose is to get the GOP to come out in favor of binge drinking. Which might actually be a good idea come January.
maus
@Andrew:
Realistically, being a Washingtonian who’s actually tried the drink, it’s fucking disgusting. The artificial flavors and sugars don’t mask the taste of alcohol. It’s like steel reserve with artificial strawberry syrup.
@WyldPirate: I wasn’t arguing with you, just boggling at the stupidity.
Parrotlover77
i usually defend the administration even way past John, but this is retarded. This reminds me of Hillary Clinton’s crusade against violence in videogames. I think there might just be a better use of time in this case.
Nathan R
@MattR:
I was (mostly) commenting on Kerlikowske’s response, but I am glad that the FDA didn’t rush a review based on just a few incidents.
John Cole
@Joe Beese: I don’t know why I bother responding to trolls, but I actually oppose both and there is a clear record in the archives, you jackass.
The Dangerman
@samson:
beabea
That does it. It is really time for me to go back to the soc ia list, nanny-state hellhole of old Europe from whence I came, where I could at least buy my Red Bull and vodka out of a hotel vending machine for under 6 euros.
But of course, in typical nanny-state fashion, they do post a placard on the vending machine reminding me to remove each purchase from the machine before making the next one, so that my Kit-Kat bar doesn’t get smashed to bits by the vodka bottle taking its death plunge. But how that is supposed to prevent the mess caused by the drunken individual making multiple vodka purchases that end up smashed together at the bottom of the machine, I haven’t a clue.
Edit: FYWP
GenO2
The leading Swiss psychiatrist of the time, Dr Albert Manhaim, who had observed Lanfray in the institution at Cery, testified that Lanfray suffered from a classic case of absinthe madness. “Without a doubt, it is the absinthe he drank daily and for a long time that gave Lanfray the ferociousness of temper and blind rages that made him shoot his wife for nothing and his two poor children, whom he loved”
– Feb 23, 1906
http://www.amazon.com/Absinthe-History-Bottle-Barnaby-Conrad/dp/0811816508
Not the bottle of brandy, creme de menthe, nor the five litres of wine he drank that day, but the absinthe t’was to blame for his crimes.
plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose
WyldPirate
@WyldPirate: @Bondo:
the cold hand of reality slapping him in the face? ;)
John O
Major stupid.
I guess my preferred rum and cokes are next.
geg6
@trollhattan:
No, you aren’t misremembering. This shit is some crazy stuff and even though some of it is made locally doesn’t mean I’m cool with it. We had a student here who was taken to the ER due to that stuff. Our campus doctor is just infuriated by it. She says that the caffeine masks the alcohol effects and the amount of alcohol in each can is seriously too much. If you took the caffeine out, she says two adults would get drunk on what is in one can.
MattR
@WyldPirate:
I agree that banning these drinks does not solve the problem. However, it does help to limit the damage caused by binge drinking until we are able to actually solve it (if that is actually possible)
@maus:
So I am guessing that most people chug it to get it down rather than gradually sip and enjoy it.
LayedBackGuy
I was in college during the mid-80’s…back in those daze, we did not know anything about drinking/drugs/sex.
Kids these days need the FDA and the President to keep them under control; its all so simple!
A Duck
Personally, I would legalize heroin and encourage kids to use that instead. It’s more physically benign than alcohol, and you can inject it directly into your dick.
Three-nineteen
OK, here is the ruling. The FDA has been looking into this for a year. This looks like the relevant point:
What it looks like they are saying is right now there is not enough proof that mixing caffeine and alcohol is safe enough to meet the “generally safe” standard. I would think if someone got into a big enough snit, they could spend millions of dollars proving under what conditions the combo is safe, and the FDA would then issue a regulation and everything would be legal again.
maus
@samson: Ban everclear, ban hard liquor, ban shotglasses, ban 40s.
Tim
I doubt if it’s a “little.”
Jamie
well, they are only deadly when you give then to high school students…other than that they’ re fine
ajr22
I thought this was AMERICA (*Stan Marsh voice*). I have never tried this, but all this talk has convinced me to go scoop some up before it is gone forever.
FlipYrWhig
@powderfinger:
You’d think ACORN was responsible for these drinks!
Zifnab
@The Dangerman:
Well, right. I’m just saying if someone sold a product called “X-PLODE DRINK!”, marketed it aggressively, and then revealed it contained a bottle full of Diet Coke and Mentos, set to combine when it hit your stomach, I would hope and pray the FDA would step in and yank that shit.
Maybe in the perfect libertarian society, when enough people have vomited themselves stupid on this vile concoction, the drink will stop getting put up on sale. But I’m personally happy to hear a group of intelligent professionals is there to step in and take “FARK U UPSOR!” off the shelf if they honestly believe it is that dangerous.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@WyldPirate: Gun control is useless, because criminals will always get their hands on guns, so only the law-abiding real Americans will be punished.
sj
Bushmills?
Nic
I wanna ban opinions I disagree with. The comments of the Nanny State apologists here must be criminalized!
WyldPirate
@A Duck:
There. Fixed.
It is impossible to overdose from either smoking or eating ganja.
Nic
I wanna ban opinions I disagree with. The comments of the Nanny State apologists here must be criminalized!
MattR
@Three-nineteen: I am a little shocked to see so many people saying that the FDA should not be doing their job and making sure that these companies are following the existing regulations. It is almost like they want to go back to the Bush years of selective enforcement.
Cam
John, I think you’re off base as well. One look at the packaging (neon colored 24 oz cans, similar to ice tea drinks) and the flavors (Grape, Fruit Punch, Orange Blend, Watermelon, Blue Raspberry, Lemon Lime, Lemonade, and Cranberry Lemonade) tells you all you need to know. This is a beverage that is designed and marketed to appeal to high school kids and other inexperienced drinkers. No self-respecting person over the age of 21 would be caught dead drinking it in public.
As to the dangers, I speak from experience. Last week, a friend of my 14 year-old daughter drank 2 cans of this stuff given to her by the 18 year-old brother of another friend. It was her 1st drinking experience. She ended up in the hospital with a .29 bac after vomiting, losing control of her bladder and bowels, and passing out on the lawn. If my daughter hadn’t been there to get her help, I honestly don’t know what would have happened. If she had drunk just a little more, she could well have died.
Perhaps if it were sold in smaller containers, that would provide a visual cue of the appropriate portion size (according to Wikipedia, it is sold in 8.3 oz. bottles in Europe), but as is, it is a real hazard.
Zifnab
@maus: Legalize the sale of rubbing alcohol as a beverage. Triple the nicotine content of all cigarettes. Put liquid butter on the shelf and call it a sports drink.
Then lean back and let the free market handle it. What could go wrong?
Sister Machine Gun of Quite Harmony
I am completely with Cole on this. Every year, alcohol alone kills lots of young people and sends scores to the hospital. There is justification to attack the marketing, like with smoking. However, I don’t agree with banning the product. You can’t prevent young people from doing stupid, stupid things. Every stupid thing should not be a matter of law and should not require a government agency to regulate it.
The ‘Nanny Statism’ thing is one of the few valid criticisms conservatives have about liberals. I believe that liberals really do come down more often on the side of freedom, than conservatives do. But stuff like this makes it hard for others to see that.
Besides, if liberals just preached about the evils of things like this and transfats, instead of trying to ban them, then conservatives would consume more just to upset us…. which would kill them off faster. Another example of how we undermine our cause.
AnotherBruce
Yes, down with the nanny state, up with the daddy state!
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
I have mixed feelings about the ban but I’ll have to take issue with you on calling this “idiocy” on the part of the White House. Here in Washington state there recently was a well-publicized case of several dozen college students becoming ill, some to the point of hospitalization, from overindulgence in Four Loko. Leaving aside the merits of the policy, I think this move has a bit of a wind at its back right now.
WyldPirate
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
To a point, this is true.
That’s not the real issue here. What is being proposed is knee-jerk nanny-statism. It’s not unlike the overkill we go through trying to fly today.
Will you save people by banning these drinks? Perhaps. Will it be more than a handful (literally). No.
maus
@Cam:
Why aren’t we banning malternatives, or reducing the ABV of these? Or removing the carbonation? Or size?
Caffeine is such a silly thing to harp on about when there’s so much else wrong with it (and alcohol in general, blah blah pot.)
@Zifnab: I’m not a libertarian, but the enforcement for this is absolutely inconsistent and not in response to direct harm.
The Dangerman
@Zifnab:
I thought, perhaps, Mentos and Diet Coke might actually cause damage and I hadn’t heard of it.
This all reminds me of helium and balloons; take a hit of helium from a balloon, talk funny, while take a hit from a helium tank and drop down dead.
There will always be Darwin Award winners, but no reason to make it easy (and, let’s face it, profitable for someone).
ajr22
Stories from drinkers of four loko http://www.Fourlokostories.com
My favorite: G.W. Bush: One night me and Cheney got two sixers of Four Loco. I remember drinking about 3. I wake up and we’re sending troops to Iraq and Cheney shot a man IN THE FACE!
jl
“The White House on Wednesday threw its support behind a ban on beverages that infuse alcohol and caffeine.”
This was the headline, and my target of ire, not a scientific investigation, by the FDA or anyone else.
The reflexive reaction of banning substances is not a good approach to drug abuse problems
I don’t see the analogy to gun control at all.
We cannot mix up guns on the spot from two jars of cheap stuff that can be purchased anywhere.
In the case of Four Loko, if the idea that a caffeine sugar booze mix is a great thing for a party, they can make their own on the spot, if the stuff is banned for sale. Then we will have a new behavior to criminalize, and new breed of teen and young adult evildoers who make this stuff.
WH backs ban headline was the stupid part. Was the story accurately reported?
MattR
@maus:
Because the FDA does not currently have the regulatory ability to do so. If adding HFCS or carbonated water to an alcholic beverage is “generally recognized as safe” there is nothing the FDA can do about it. Since caffeine actually has side effects that make it not harmless, it does not meet that standard so the FDA can intervene.
pragmatism
i’m not entirely sure that the bad ass protestant bushmills completely cancels out the ummmmmmmm less manly baileys. but i have been known to be wrong.
WyldPirate
@Cam:
I’m sorry that this happened.
OTOH, this same thing has happened tens of thousands of times with regular alcoholic bevarages not marketed towards teens (who can’t buy it or be provided it legally anyway).
What about those kids? What is your proposal to limit harm to them? full-on prohibition? that worked so well from 1919-1932.
300baud
This whole thing, both sides of it, dumbfounds me.
Sure, the people who make Four Loko are amoral reptiles. The stuff is perfectly engineered to be popular, profitable, and dangerous. Three different stimulants, 4-5 beers worth of alcohol, and enough sugar and artificial flavoring that it makes a Coca Cola seem subtle, and all in a brightly-colored can. It removes all of the sensory reminders that you are getting drunk. Of course people are going to get fucked up on this.
However, banning drinks that happen to have caffeine is idiotic. What we should be doing is teaching people how to drink responsibly. And having actual discussions about the morality and wisdom of a) producing this, b) selling this, c) promoting this, and d) buying this. The problem is not caffeine, and it’s not the FDA, it’s that we’re creating a culture where irresponsible idiocy is supported and profitable sociopathy is celebrated.
JCT
This.
Yes, these are fruity alcohol drinks that are high % EtOH and are clearly marked to young adults. They also contain significant amounts of caffeine. The caffeine does not enhance the taste, the only point of the caffeine is to maintain the drinker’s level of awareness. This has the effect of allowing people to easily drink beyond their capacity because they do not experience the stupor they would normally achieve in the course of drinking and that tends to curtail the amount of drinking they do. Thus, they can drink tons of this stuff. So, good for business. This can be very dangerous especially for younger, more unexperienced drinkers and women (lower natural alcohol tolerance). My ER has been hit with this as well. No deaths yet, but it will happen.
If the company wants to pull the caffeine out — no problem, otherwise I think the attention being paid to this is warranted.
maus
@WyldPirate: Yeah, I have a hard time saying “this is not the first time someone drank dangerous amounts their first time without proper adult supervision and ended up in the hospital” without feeling absolutely terrible for him :(
@MattR: Reasonable, even though I disagree with the rationale.
edit: OTOH, again, I go back to the kreteks versus menthols, they were able to ban them outright without any other factors, why is that situation different than this?
A Duck
You know what else would lead to fewer teen deaths?
Not sending them to a war zone? Sure some kids will still manage to get shot or blown up, but their is no point in making it easier for them (and profitable for someone else).
kdaug
Am I wrong to hear the echoes of Terri Shaivo here?
What, precisely, do we want our government’s powers to be?
John List
Here we go again. This is Obama’s version of school uniforms and V chips.
Three-nineteen
@MattR: To be fair, one of the warning letters states that the companies did get approval to add the caffeine from some agency called the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB). So I think they tried in good faith to follow the rules. The FDA only stepped in when everyone started bitching. I haven’t seen any of the data the FDA analyzed or what the recommendation to the panel was, so I won’t guess if political pressure was a factor.
Nick
Is this Obama’s Sistah Souljah moment? I have no idea what that means but it’s fun to sound like a pundit.
Mnemosyne
@Cam:
So far, you’re the only one who has a sensible solution beyond screaming “nanny state!” and “killing kids!”
This stuff is sold in 24-ounce cans. Would it really be a huge nanny-state imposition for the FDA to say, “Fine, you can still sell it, but the cans can’t be bigger than 8 ounces”? Or is that horrific nanny stateism too?
Nick
No, it means you won’t be able to market it.
Nick
@jl:
Is the sun made of ice?
Larv
I’m ambivalent about this. On the one hand, it seems very nanny-statist. I don’t like the idea of the federal government banning certain things just because stupid college kids might abuse them. And anything Gil Kerlikowske supports I’m inclined to oppose; the man’s a liar and a propagandist. OTOH, I think the problem with Four Loko is that it appeals primarily to a demographic that indulges in binge drinking. While binge drinking is not a particularly good idea in the first place, binge drinking this stuff can be particularly dangerous, and in a way that’s hard for its consumers to predict. You’re not going to stop kids from binge drinking, we probably all did it and we survived. The problem is that Four Loko doesn’t seem all that alcoholic because the sugar masks the taste of the alcohol, and the caffeine masks the drowsiness. Even college kids don’t generally drink to the level of acute alcohol intoxication, in part because they drink mostly high-volume, low alcohol drinks like beer, and because most people pass out before they get alcohol poisoning. Not so much with Four Loko type drinks. If you’re used to binge drinking beer, the same sort of drinking with Four Loko could get you into trouble without realizing it. So I dunno.
ajr22
So are people mad the FDA got rid of flavored cigarettes? I mean they took away my right to have watermelon flavored cigarettes to protect kids…stupid government.
kdaug
@sj:
Banned. Poof-gone.
Tullimore Dew is the only state-sanctioned Irish Whiskey from this point forward.
maus
@Mnemosyne: Sure, that’s reasonable. You should not be able to finish the can quickly, or be encouraged to “chug”. The portion size is ridiculous for the price & ABV.
@ajr22:
Technically, I’m mad that clove cigarettes were banned. Clove cigars are terrible :/
@Larv:
Exactly. The problem here is the strong correlation with the binge drinkers.
MattR
@Mnemosyne:
Do they have any authority to do that? They clearly have the authority to regulate what is added to alcoholic beverages.
And I don’t see how that would fix the underlying issue – that the caffeine masks the effects of the alcohol making it more dangerous than alcohol alone.
Nick
@Sister Machine Gun of Quite Harmony:
You can lessen the chance they do it.
Three-nineteen
@Mnemosyne: Exactly. One can is a bottle of wine (750 mls = 25 oz). I’m pretty sure most people would be close alcohol poisoning drinking two of those. Add a couple of shots and you’re done.
kdaug
@300baud:
Hey – no reason to bring the Palins or Jersey Shore into this.
FlipYrWhig
@jl:
I don’t mean to pick on you in particular, jl, but this to me is the quintessence of the liberal blogosphere circa 2010. “This was the headline, and my target of ire.” Sometimes there’s stuff _past_ the headline. Sometimes headline-writers want to get you good and agitated. Resist that. Don’t let them play you for a fool like that.
Gravenstone
Twenty five years ago, one of our preferred beverages comprised a shot of Jack, a shot of 151 and a shot of Everclear, cut with two cans of Jolt. Who knew we were such trendsetters? For those keeping score, that’s 50% more caffeine and 60% more alcohol than is in these canned time bombs. The difference, we had to acquire liquor and mix it up ourselves. This shit is available anywhere that can carry wine (similar AC) and in ready to quaff servings. Of course binge drinking youths are the target for this crap, and regulation of it is eminently reasonable.
Mnemosyne
@MattR:
Because having to open four cans to get the same quantity that currently comes in a single serving could at least slow some people down enough to feel the effects.
I have no idea if the FDA has the authority to fix serving sizes, but it would seem to be the most sensible solution all around. I think they might, because there have been some rumblings about making manufacturers put actual serving sizes on their packaging and not pretend that one cookie is four servings.
Ed in NJ
I found these in my local liquor store this past weekend and bought a couple to try out at my tailgate this weekend. As a 46 year old moderate drinker, I can tell you this isn’t just a beer mixed with an energy drink. This gives the feeling of drinking a 6 pack and doing a line of coke, and it only cost $2.49 to get that feeling.
I have mixed feelings. I kind of liked it for the tailgate, but I understand that most of the people this is marketed to would be less responsible than I am. After all, the major issue with this is that unlike regular alcohol, younger users don’t get tired and stop drinking. That can’t be good.
Zifnab
@maus:
Says who? I’m willing to trust the folks at the FDA until I have compelling reasons to feel differently. If the professional researches at the FDA honestly believe these drinks cause direct harm – above and beyond normal caffeine or alcoholic drinks – then I’d be willing to second guess or follow up, but only with a team of equally capable and professional researchers. I’m not going to disagree with the FDA on the grounds that it just sounds silly.
300baud
@kdaug:
Or Anthony Mozillo, or Lloyd “God’s Work” Blankfein, or Donald Trump, or Glenn Beck, or… God, I could go on for DAYS. It’s a total cliche, but I really feel like the inmates somehow ended up running the asylum.
Three-nineteen
@Zifnab: The FDA does not say it’s harmful. The FDA says there’s not enough proof that it’s safe.
LayedBackGuy
(Sigh)
Such a furious debate about ‘the youngsters’ and ‘The Party’.
The real problem here is that it has a brand name. This same sort of thing has gone on for quite some time now, and demonizing a brand name will not change anything.
If only things were so simple…we could just put a stop to ‘X’, and then ‘Y’ will stop happening….
Darn kids these days, if only we could stop this thing, then none of them would ever get hurt, or do the wrong thing!
300baud
@Mnemosyne:
That would definitely be a step forward. Four Loko is a problem because it took every indicator that people use to remind them to be cautious and removed it. Price, flavor, sweetness taste of alcohol, can color, can size, drink color, feeling of drunkeness, feeling of sleepiness. All gone.
But they aren’t the only ones doing that. Every snack food manufacturer plays these games to get around people’s natural and learned inhibitions. Four Loko is the symptom, not the problem.
Zifnab
@Three-nineteen: That’s six of one and half a dozen of the other.
maus
@Zifnab: I believe it is to an extent, but I don’t agree with your statement.
Tanuki
I’m just going to leave this here.
Surly Duff
@Cam:
So your point is a fourteen year old should not be drinking large amounts of alcohol, which, I believe, is not in dispute.
Are you trying to argue that if a 14 year old simply stuck with a peaty scotch things would not have gotten so out of hand?
Comrade Mary
@El Tiburon: Tunch is a sparkling conversationalist. I’m sure you did not mean to imply otherwise.
MM
And no college kids ever died from alcohol abuse again.
300baud
@Surly Duff:
I would bet a fair bit of cash money that’s exactly correct.
9 shots of peaty scotch is a serious drinking commitment. Two cans of soda-pop isn’t, especially when it’s filled with stimulants. It is not accidental that the average American drinks 50 gallons of carbonated soft drinks a year, and it’s equally unsurprising that 8 of the 10 most popular soft drinks all have a stimulant added.
maus
@300baud:
The sipping culture of Islay malt drinkers is also SLIGHTLY different than that of a 14 year old binge drinker.
ThresherK
@Mnemosyne: Not sure about beer or “malt alcoholic beverage, but aren’t spirits and wine bottle sizes conspicuously alike?
I’m sticking with Thunder Muscle.
joe from Lowell
Bailey’s in my coffee is my Christmas morning tradition.
Cam
@Surly Duff:
My, you are surly!
My point is simply that for fourteen year olds, who are not experienced users of alcohol, but who are used to guzzling 24 oz. cans of Arizona Ice Tea, the fact that 2 cans of this drink contains a lethal dose of alcohol is not apparent, especially given the soda-like flavors and labeling. And no, if she was given scotch, things would absolutely not have gotten as bad, because she would have immediately deemed it to be “gross” and stopped drinking it.
Mnemosyne
@300baud:
I linked to Mindless Eating in one of the other threads, which talks all about the things food companies do to induce us to eat and drink more, even when we’re convinced we know their tricks. It’s really fascinating.
maus
@Cam:
Inexperienced users of alcohol will drink ANYTHING that gets them drunk, from what I recall of being 14 and raiding my grandfather’s liquor cabinet of the damned.
Chris
Isn’t the FDA independent from the White House? I mean, the President puts people in there, but they work separately from the White House. It isn’t like the DOD, DOJ, etc. In other words, this has nothing to do with the White House.
Mnemosyne
@maus:
But unless you were simultaneously drinking a pot of coffee, you probably weren’t able to keep drinking past the point you would normally pass out.
maus
@Mnemosyne: I was responding to the
, not comparing it to tha’ Lok.
Rod Majors
If college kids started popping up in ER’s drunk on too much whiskey, would they ban whiskey? Not a chance. If you ban 4-Loko, they will simply move on to something else.
b-psycho
@Nick: Yes, by raising smarter people.
If we can’t be bothered to do that, fuck us then, society lost.
mclaren
You’ll recall I predicted this. The war against drugs must expand indefinitely, otherwise it will collapse. More and more previously legal substances must be banned. Herbal ecstasy, jimson weed, salvia divinorum, high-caffeine sodas, green tea…and now liquor with caffeine in it.
The prison-industrial complex requires an endless supply of warm bodies to sustain itself. Only by making more and more substances illegal can our prison-industrial complex continue to grow.
Look for cops using battering rams to smash in the doors and windows of a house where kids are drinking Mountain Drew with their Dad’s gin and arrest them for “felony possession of a controlled substance combining caffeine with liquor.” Plus, since the Mountain Dew is a 2-liter bottle, they’ll get an extra possession with intent to sell charge because there’s so much of it, mandating life without parole.
The argument that “caffeeine makes the liquor lethal because it lets kids drink more, so they can die of alochol poisoning” is stupid beyond description, because possession of a car is even more lethal — since a car lets kids drive to the liquor store. So possession of a car +caffeine should be a felony too, since it enables kids to drive to the liquor store and buy the store and then drink themselves to death. In fact, possession of cups or glasses should also be felonized, since that also facilitates kids drinking themselves to death.
Welcome to Shithole America, the laughingstock of the world and the sinkhole of cvilization in the 21st century.
Larv
mclaren,
Let me know when somebody starts marketing a car with a kegerator in it. Because that’s what we’re actually talking about here. Nobody is trying to make mixing alcohol and caffeine illegal, they’re saying that beverage makers can’t sell the mixture without better safety data. There is nothing stopping anybody from mixing up their own Red Bull and Vodka or (shudder) Mountain Dew and gin. Why is this so hard to understand?
Death Panel Truck
@WyldPirate:
Yeah, ‘cuz that always works.
(Rolls eyes)
Comrade PhysioProf
I know this is too fuecken late, but I couldn’t let this go: Fucke Bushmills. Drinke Jamesonne.