Paul Krugman, who I often believe is exceptionally tone-deaf regarding politics (but usually right on the merits of policy), is, IMHO, absolutely right here:
First, Pelosi has by all accounts been an extremely effective leader. She made health care happen, when it was taken for lost; she has shown an amazing ability to herd cats, and from what I hear her caucus appreciates her talents. If the economic policies fell short, if the White House did a terrible job of messaging, well, that’s not her fault.
Second, and following from this: getting rid of Nancy Pelosi now would serve no purpose other than to throw an alleged wild liberal to the conservative wolves. It would, in effect, be admitting that America won’t accept anything that looks like a progressive policy; it would basically mean conceding that the Republicans were right.
So the Pelosi issue is about whether the Democrats will fall back into their good old cringe.
Democrats would be fools to let the GOP have another scalp. Period.
joe from Lowell
Any chance we can convince the press that Steny Hoyer lost the majority?
“Just look at how his fellow Blue Dogs did!”
Cacti
Pelosi was a great Speaker of the House.
Heath Shuler or Steny Hoyer would be the House equivalent of Harry Reid.
Death Panel Truck
Which pretty much guarantees they’ll cut her loose.
BGinCHI
Keep Nancy, ditch Hoyer.
If she has to go, replace her with a smart liberal: Jan Schakowsky, for example.
Mike Kay (Team America)
Dems made a big mistake in backing Hoyer over Jack Murtha after the 2006 election.
Catsy
Co-signed.
Pelosi doesn’t get a fraction of the credit she deserves for holding the line and getting legislation passed. It’s not her fault the Senate is completely broken.
Also, fuck the idea of Blue Dogs in the leadership. Their caucus got decimated in an election where they were campaigning against the president and against their own party’s agenda. They have no credibility; their name should be dirt.
The only thing a Blue Dog in the leadership will do is roll over for the GOP to scratch his belly.
Yutsano
Nancy SMASH!! ‘Nuff said. And for crap’s sake she’s a fucking grandmother with more huevos than three fourths of the men in Congress. No wonder they’re opposed to her.
Davis X. Machina
Remember how the GOP kicked their House Minority Leader to the curb after they got blown out in ’08?
Boehner, I think his name was. A rep from Ohio.
Whatever happened to him, I wonder?
In American politics there are are no second acts.
Omnes Omnibus
Is there really any question about this? Someone might run against her, but I don’t see anyone winning or even coming close. Performing a beat down on a challenger probably strengthens her hand in the caucus as well.
arguingwithsignposts
@Cacti:
That’s actually an insult to Harry Reid.
Cat Lady
Doesn’t the Progressive Caucus in the House hold the plurality of Dems? It’s hard to imagine they wouldn’t support her, but what do I know, I’m an Obot.
sherifffruitfly
Even Saletan gets it.
http://www.slate.com/id/2273708/
Peter J
I’d argue that Harry Reid would have had a lot more done if the Democrats have had 60 senators and passing filibusters and bills would only have required a single majority.
Mike Kay (Team America)
O/T : Tooo Funnny
Palin called St. Ronnie a “bozo” and now the first generation reagan groupies are freaking out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/06/peggy-noonan-sarah-palin_n_779624.html
lol
There’s no question she’ll stay.
The question is whether Hoyer or Clyburn will get Minority Whip.
lol
@Peter J:
THIS.
Reid’s done pretty good considering the Senate is broken.
kdaug
@Omnes Omnibus: Nancy SMASH! Steny. No problemo.
Nancy SMASH! Heath. No problemo.
ARRGH!
(Seriously – Heath and Steny? What kind of names… never mind).
Nicole
Can’t hurt to call your Rep (if he or she is a Dem) to express your support for Pelosi as Minority Leader.
The Grand Panjandrum
If any elected Democrat deserves the loyalty of fellow Dems it is Pelosi. She fought the good fight AND was a great Speaker with regard to getting shit done. Why blame her for making the Blues Clueless Caucus take tough votes? She lead well and is to be admired for her tenacity and principled stands. Blue Dogs would like to blame her for making them cast votes on legislation they call meaningless because the Senate never got its shit together to take a vote. Fuck them. Maybe if they hadn’t spent some much energy running away from the Democratic they would have been more effective and possibly been reelected. How many of these fuckers were on the list of assholes who forced the House to put that bullshit anti-abortion funding language in the bill then voted AGAINST the larger bill when everyone knew the Hyde Amendment already applied in this case?
Boo fucking hoo to the Blues Clueless Caucus! Of course most of them will end up being lobbyists so they won’t have to worry about how tough it is for folks who live in their districts who need work. Stimulate this you bunch of WATB!
Anne Laurie
Having an effective woman cat-herding the Democrats drives the Republicans even further along the Crazy Curve than any staid white male like Hoyer would. One reason the professional concern trolls are encouraging Pelosi to “retire for the good of her party” is that they’re all salivating for another round of “the Black Guy versus the Skirt” PUMA-antics… as long as it can be framed that way, it’s a guaranteed win for the white men in suits!
Nick
I love Pelosi, and I think she should stay on, but the party needs someone who can appeal to all those who see Nancy as some liberal grandma from the coast who doesn’t know anything about life past the Bay Bridge.
You need Heath Shuler with Nancy Pelosi’s politics.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@lol: Reid could have done better if the MSM wasn’t broken.
if the Dems had blocked every piece of legislation including the defense appropriations bill by filibuster, the MSN would have SCREAMED “obstruction”, “unpatriotic”, “undemocratic”, “sour grapes”, “putting party above country”, etc., etc.
That’s why the filibuster should be scrapped. If Dems are out of power they could use it at the margins, but the MSM would never allow them to use it systematically; they’d come down on the Dems like a ton of bricks. What’s the use in having the filibuster if only one side can use it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Nick: Dick Durbin in the Senate?
Susan Ross
If they throw Nancy Pelosi under the bus, I am through with the Democratic party to infinity.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Anne Laurie:
“the Black Guy versus the Skirt”
What skirt?
Josie
@Nick: I don’t agree. She doesn’t have to appeal to the public at large. The minority leader needs to be a good infighter and be able to count. Nancy is as good as it gets in old fashioned political know how. I think the Dems would be crazy to throw her to the curb going into this fight.
Nick
@Omnes Omnibus:
yeah, he’d be better if he was still in the House.
The problem is all of the House members who fit that criteria lost or retired last week.
People like Joe Sestak, John Spratt, Phil Hare, Mark Schauer, Vic Snyder, Harry Mitchell
Nick
@Omnes Omnibus:
yeah, he’d be better if he was still in the House.
The problem is all of the House members who fit that criteria lost or retired last week.
People like Joe Sestak, John Spratt, Phil Hare, Mark Schauer, Vic Snyder, Harry Mitchell
BGinCHI
@Mike Kay (Team America):
Maybe she literally thought he played a clown?
Or she didn’t know the chimp was the star.
Cat Lady
What about a gay Jew from Massachusetts? Barney’s comfortable being a high profile lightning rod and his Financial Services Committee work will need to be spotlighted now that the Republicans are casting around for a chairman.
Susan Ross
I disagree, mostly because we tried that and ended up with a House full of blue dogs. No, thank you. Not again. It’s better time spent convincing people why liberal policies are in their best interest than it is trying to convince them you’re not really that liberal.
Again… what *conservative* thinks this way?
Nick
@Josie:
S/he also needs to be able to lead the party back to the majority.
I’m not sure she could do that anymore…and that isn’t her fault.
Conservatives hate her, firebaggers hate her, and the rest of the party doesn’t want to be caught having to defend her.
Nick
@Susan Ross:
um, any of them who live in between the Bay and George Washington Bridges.
jharp
I’ve already contacted her with my support.
Just as I did after the health care bill was passed.
And I think some of the older folks who think the way we do still have a little sexism they haven’t gotten over.
My 76 year old Dad who supports about every progressive cause thought she should go.
MattF
I think this is a totally invented issue. A couple of Blue Dogs want to jump the boat and join the Republican House caucus– the correct response is exactly what Pelosi is doing– waving bye-bye. Thanks for all the fish, assholes.
Nick
@jharp:
it’s younger folks too, my progressive friends think she should go, but many of them thought she never should’ve been there in the first place.
Zuzu's Petals
Personally, I don’t think she would have announced her intention to run unless it was pretty much in the bag. She’s just way too savvy that way.
Mike Kay (Team America)
The same can be said about the commentariat on the blogosphere (BJ excluded).
Just Some Fuckhead
I think she should continue as Speaker of the House. If the Republicans try to have a vote, cut their microphones, cut the power.
Davis X. Machina
@Nick: To quote an American political operative of yore: “Fuck ’em. They didn’t vote for us.”
Josie
@Nick: I’m not convinced. I seriously doubt that Democrats lost the house because the public at large really like John Boehner. I see her job as more stopping the majority from accomplishing what they want to do. If she can do a good job of that, the politics will take care of itself. Getting more Dems elected is the job of the person (I forget the title) who is in charge of that committee for the house and Tim Kaine.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@Nick:
are the fbaggers opposing her? That would be too funny.
General Stuck
The party in the minority in House, is a party maybe a step above the janitors. They have no power, and it is not critical who leads them. So going with a more conservative minority leader would just be stoopid, and the kind of knee jerk to the right that has bedeviled liberals and dems since Reagan.
Nancy the Great isn’t going anywhere, and has proven she can be a cold hearted pragmatist when that is what is called for, and a liberal advocate at the same time. Very rare for any leader to pull that off imo, and she also has the patience to nurture (I know sexist) butthurt, and otherwise wayward members until they come around to her viewpoint.
I think nearly every dem in the House loves her leadership abilities, except the blue dogs, that are now half what they were.
Davis X. Machina
(People from Massachusetts, don’t raise your hands.)
Everybody who knows the name of the Speaker when all the Great Society stuff — Medicare, Voting Rights Act, Civil Rights Act, Head Start — was passed, raise your hands….
Let’s count….
Rathskeller
@Cat Lady: No. I love Frank, but I think he decided a long time ago which level of power he’s comfortable with. Or aggravation, if you like. He didn’t move a finger to run for the MA-SEN position, for example.
And frankly, he makes a better fund-raising target than Pelosi does.
Ben
@Nicole:
I’ve started a whip count sheet which can be viewed here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ala4aMobtf8jdE5USHJYQUkxTlJMODVrY2p5bmtHZnc&hl=en#gid=0
Flugelhorn
I hope she DOES stick around. It would be perhaps the most idiotic thing she could do and be very detrimental to the Dems. You might not like blue dogs very much, but at least they are BLUE. Wait until 2 years after Minority Leader Pelosi. Then you will see that many more Republicans who might have been blue dogs at one time or another.
I do not get what you guys see here. The only reason the middle of the country has any Dems at all is because of 70 years of ingrained legacy from conservative blue collars. They used to call them Dixie-crats in the south. Now they are all Republicans.
And Another Thing...
I don’t think Nancy would have announced she’s running if she didn’t have the votes.
Pushing her out of leadership would just give the right another scalp. The Right has a smear machine and they’d just move on to the next Dem in line and try to shred them too. The Right prob can’t do much more to damage her. Besides you pick the leadership your team needs, not to try and immunize yourself.
I’m betting that Hoyer can’t beat Clyburn out of the Whip job. Clyburn’s well liked, seems to be effective, and probably has more of a base in the House than Hoyer.
The wild card is what will Reid be like now that he’s not sweating out bad polls and a near term election?
And Nancy rocks!
eemom
I’m posting all these links on my FB page for my asshole teatard sister in law who says Pelosi “gets on her nerves.”
Srsly — is there ANYTHING stupider you could say about an elected official, than that they “get on your nerves”?
aimai
@Nick:
Fuck that. America is full of Grandmas and mommys and we vote. I wouldn’t spit on Heath Shuler if he were on fire and he for damn sure doesn’t know anything more about real america or americans than Nancy “kitchen table in baltimore/grandma in San Fran” knows.
You don’t kick Nancy to the curb for all the reasons alluded to up above and also because you don’t fucking kill your mascot when you lose one game. The people who are seriously arguing that we should get rid of Nancy to placate *the right wing assholes who vote against Democrats* might just as well argue that we should get rid of our logo and replace it with an Elephant because that works so well for the other guy.
aimai
Calliope Jane
Isn’t she one of the best fundraisers in the party? I thought I read that a few years ago, and of course she’s very generous with the other House members. She also earned DeLay’s admiration for maintaining such an effective minority party, which is impressive (even though, yeah, it’s DeLay, but still). I hope they keep her.
El Cid
If the Democrats are smart, they’ll get rid of the ultra-liberal, controversial Nancy Pelosi, and then finally Republicans would love them and work with them.
Just Some Fuckhead
@aimai: Can we compromise on an Elephonkey?
eemom
@Josie:
heh heh — that’s a good one. Most of the morons who voted republican don’t even know who no-Boner is, just like they have no fucking clue what else it was they were supposedly voting “for.”
jacy
@Nick:
Who the fuck cares what those people think? To hell with being qualified or effective or deserving, it’s all about appeasing people who outright declare themselves your enemies. It’s like saying we need to have a different nominee in 2012 because Obama doesn’t appeal to racists.
This is why we can’t have nice things.
The War Planner
..I personally am down on my knees begging y’all to keep Pelosi. Great woman, great leader, and, let’s face it, she’s super hot for a 70-year-old botoxed-to-the-max chick!
Looking forward to the “bright new fresh faces of the Democrat Party” like, Pelosi, Reid, and Jerry Brown.
Real hit out here in Seizure World.
J sub D
That is the only credible argument I’ve heard for keeping her. It’s not as if she’s going to bring in swing voters. It is not as if the health care reform bill was good or even coherent legislation. A refusal to yield makes a certain amount of political sense.
I though making the far right Trent Lott Senate Majority Leaderwas a political mistake for the GOP and I think making Nancy Pelosi Speaker of the House was a similar one.
But canning her now (as opposed to never selecting her in the first place) would look
a bitlike a surrender now.aimai
Nick’s comments remind me of the scene in My Big Fat Greek Wedding when the father introduces all the cousins “Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick…Nicholas, Nicky…Nick…” Look! Nick knows a lot of “progressives” and even “conservatives!” (between the Bay and the George Washington Bridge) and they all think the same thing! So it must be correct! Nancy must go!
Its the stupidest reasoning ever. A) the Republicans will continue to run against her because they always personalize everything. She could step down and they will still run against her. Other Democrats will still have to “defend” her. But I doubt seriously that anyone had to “defend” her in any real world sense. That’s just gobbledygook. People voted against incumbents because they were mad. They didn’t turn out to support their dem reps because they were lazy or mad. They could have cared less about Pelosi and I’d bet the only reason they can name her is that her name is on the news.
B) The role of the minority leader is to be a stumbling block to the majority and to keep the caucus in order. Nancy can do that because she already did it before, she’s a huge fundraiser (how’s that for unpopular again?), and she’s really smart.
aimai
Josie
@El Cid: Ok, I think I love you, but in a good, not-stalkerish way.
Yutsano
@Flugelhorn:
Heh. Aren’t you precious? It just can’t enter your thick teabagging skull at all that there might just be folks in the middle of the country who also believe in progressive policies? And that there might just be enough of those folks to elect representatives to go to Washington to speak for them? The absurdity in your premise is laughable. Try harder or go back to trolling school please.
And Another Thing...
@aimai: Well done!!
Just Some Fuckhead
@aimai: To be fair to Nick, someone on Facebook once posted something on their wall proving something he thought.
BGinCHI
If Barney Frank was Speaker, the whip count might be a lot spicier.
I like the phalanx of Pelosi, Clyburn, Frank: it’s all the evils teabagger whitey fears.
Like Dem Leadership Superfriends.
General Stuck
@Flugelhorn:
This was a flukelhorn election, at least the size of dem losses. It was near 100 percent based on opposing obama and dems, and re electing the same bunch that is causing voters so much current pain from when they ran things before.
You know, after 8 plus years of nothing more than tax cuts for rich people and unnecessary and botched wars, and none of it paid for, and little regulation of Wall Street and where that ended up, what is the GOP plafform? More of the same.
So what goes around at increasing speed will come around the same way. You guys won the election, now what? At some point the flaky amnesiac American voter is going to figure out you can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip, nor make the GOP into a party that can govern itself out of a paper sack, but can pour on the bullshit to get elected. That isn’t near enough and even Pavlov’s dogs in the middle of the country will stop barking at the moon.
Just Some Fuckhead
@BGinCHI:
If only we could get an illegal immigrant elected and into a position of power, we could rule the world.
debbie
@Yutsano:
Can you imagine if Boehner got the same kind of treatment that Pelosi’s received over the past few years? He’d be at the microphone, blubbering like a baby.
arguingwithsignposts
@aimai:
Nick has been saying stupid shit all day. In the earlier thread, he was condemning the Midwest as a bunch of Jesus Freaks. FWIW.
Just Some Fuckhead
Ya know, Democrats could elect a Republican as the minority leader. Broder just fainted dead away.
eemom
OT: I can haz Greenwald-O’Donnell flame war thread plz? kthxbai
Mike Kay (Team America)
ya know, you can make a case that Nancy made big errors, specifically, once it became clear the senate was broken, she should have waited for the Senate to pass bills, before taking up legislation in the house, and she failed to put a straightjacket on the Stupak nuts who only slit their own throats. The Stupak kooks played to the cameras thinking they could score points by ginning up a controversy on abortion, instead they ending up aliening everyone (too cleaver, by half).
BGinCHI
@Just Some Fuckhead: Let’s learn to walk before we try to run into the sunset.
General Stuck
@eemom:
Saw that. O’donnell cleaned waldopepper’s clock.
Cat Lady
@BGinCHI:
Funny, but why the fuck not? We’re not gonna get the older white demographic anyway, so let’s get everybody else.
@Davis X. Machina:
Sorry, but you’ve just referred to the hero of my childhood (I had an FDR loving father, who brought me up right).
“Attending law school at night, he passed the Massachusetts bar exam in 1913 at age 21 without having completed high school.”
We here in Mass. are getting a little tired of doing all the electing of people who do all the heavy lifting.
Just Some Fuckhead
@arguingwithsignposts:
He’s much better when he’s proactively defending Obama from all imagined harm. That “Obama should have used the bully pulpit” line apropos of nothing just slays me each and every time he says it.
BGK
Sorry, I know this isn’t an open thread, but I’m sitting on the lawn at Bok Tower Gardens on a heartbreakingly beautiful evening as soprano Susana Diaz and the Orlando Philharmonic hold about two thousand of us spellbound with Verdi arias, and I can’t stop thinking that any minute Rick Scott and Marco Rubio will come up over the hill on road graders and plow us under for being all faggy and unUhmerican.
Nancy smash, yes please.
BGinCHI
@Cat Lady: Agreed.
It’s like old whitey America by and large forgot everything they were taught on Sesame Street.
Why do they hate Levar Burton? Or Bert & Ernie (greatest gay couple ever)? Or Big Bird (such a curious tranny)?
Jamie
well If Pelosi doesn’t get the blame for the fiasco of last Tuesday, who does? The House senate and the white house have been falling down on the part of the job pertaining to explaining what they have done and why. The GOP beat their ass in the spin battle over the last year.
Davis X. Machina
@Cat Lady: I shook the man’s hand, at the age of 5. Still remember it. Speaker or no, he did a mean constituent visit. In that regard, he was the very Father of Tip.
BGinCHI
@BGK: Now that’s some fucking multi-tasking.
Thread win.
arguingwithsignposts
@Jamie:
It helps that the GOP has their own network, plus pliant accomplices in the rest of the MSM, plus millions of dollars in corporate donations, plus a “grass roots” bunch of idiots screaming at town hall meetings.
Pelosi doesn’t run the house campaign committee, either. That’s the person who usually loses their job when elections don’t go the way the party wants (along with the DNC Chair, and I don’t think I’d lose sleep if Tim Kaine were looking for a job soon).
She lost the speakership. She wasn’t on a national ballot.
ETA: and if you really want to place blame, I’d look a bit farther down the hall at the other, *really* dysfunctional chamber of the Congress.
KG
I was going to make some profound comment about how when a party loses the majority, the Speaker usually retires. But looking at the wikipedia list of Speakers, I’m reminded that the change in majorities just doesn’t happen all that often (this’ll be the tenth change since 1900).
General Stuck
@Jamie:
Oh, I don’t know. Maybe the presumably adult voters who have an IQ over 70 would be a start, then the ones that didn’t vote because nobody inspired them enough. Wingers are more disciplined at messaging than dems, likely by nature. But at the end of the day, it is those on the receiving end of those messages, that end up believing rank bullshit, most likely because they want to believe it, and to forget everything past two years ago in order to believe it.
Davis X. Machina
@Jamie: With a U3 of 10 and a U6 of nearly 19, Speaker Jesus Christ Himself (D-Bethlehem) loses twenty seats…
Maybe 10x more people in this country can pick Dorothy Zbornak out of a lineup than Nancy Pelosi. And she is much more beloved. So, in a way, only Bea Arthur’s death keeps her from being not only the next minority leader, but the Best Speakah Evah come 2012.
KG
Zenyatta doesn’t get to retire undefeated… lost by a nose, after being back 18 lengths. helluva race.
El Cid
@Josie: Any way I can get it.
BGK
BGinCHI: I typed during the chatter between tha arias. I wouldn’t insult the performers like some kind of Republican.
James K Polk, Esq.
@Jamie:
How about Steny fucking Hoyer?
James K Polk, Esq.
@Jamie:
How about Steny fucking Hoyer?
Anne Laurie
@Nick:
__
This is exactly like the Very Serious Concern Trolls explaining how much “easier” it would be for Barack Obama if only he’d had the forethought to be born of two white parents. Nancy Pelosi is the very capable Democratic politician that she is because she grew up in an urban poltical family in a time when women weren’t expected (allowed) to be professional politicians. She’s spent the last 50-plus years having to work harder and longer to earn every vote because she isn’t Heath Shuler… i.e., a perfectly nice ex-professional-jock who walked into a political career because it looked to be more profitable than starting a car dealership once his knees gave out. Pelosi attracts the special animus of the Teabaggers and their fellow low-information voters because she’s not another cookiecutter Heartland American(tm) White Guy Politician, but giving those selfish nimrods another Shuler wouldn’t change their minds about the Socialistical Commie agenda of the Great Muslin Keynsian Interloper Black Dude’s agenda, either. In fact, giving those WATBs a “win” by ditching our very effective House leader for some smiling Lego-figure would only encourage the Teatards in their race to go full metal anarchist.
Moses2317
I entirely agree on keeping Pelosi.
Perhaps this is something we should fire up the call your Democratic Congressperson effort about? They hear from the teabaggers all the time. It will be critical that they hear from us progressives a lot more over the next two years.
Here is a link to a place where you can find all of their websites, though obviously the newly elected ones are not there.
Winning Progressive
And Another Thing...
So, I’m grieving the loss of the House too, but, damn we shouldn’t be wringing our hands and backing off our progressive agenda. I think it’s a flippin miracle we didn’t lose the Senate. There is terrible unemployment, Dems lost the propaganda war over TARP, the auto bailout, the stimulus, and death panels. OMG it could have BEEN SO MUCH WORSE!
A whole bunch of those shiny new R congresspeople are in swing districts and a whole bunch of them are demonstrably nuts and vulnerable. In 2012 we’ll win a bunch of those seats back.
The Repubs are going to shred each other in the next two years – Jim DeMint in the Senate, Sarah Loose Cannon Palin leading her partiers in her march to the Pres nomination and a whole bunch of clueless whackaloons running around the House, etc.
We need to recruit good candidates, support Obama, and fucking learn to sell our programs.
BGinCHI
@BGK: I envy you the music and the weather as I grade exams in my office before going out into the cold.
But we are going to see Jake Shimabukuro at the Old Town School of Folk Music tonight, so that kind of makes up for it.
BGinCHI
@James K Polk, Esq.:
There, fixed.
Mike Kay (Team America)
@General Stuck:
I will never understand why some people will listen to someone who has no accomplishments or credentials. It’s like when the neo-cons were allowed to determine military strategy even though none of them ever served on the military.
Omnes Omnibus
@J sub D: Pelosi has been brutally effective at her job. She got her caucus to pass Democratic legislation. She also was careful to let vulnerable members avoid a tough vote if she did not need them. In other words, she passed needed legislation while causing as little harm as possible to vulnerable Democrats. That is what the Speaker is supposed to do. The caucus was smart to elect her as Speaker and it will be smart enough choose her as Minority Leader.
And Another Thing...
@Anne Laurie: That’s a Righteous Rant. Thnx
Plus, Nancy just doesn’t seem like a quitter. She’s willing to keep working her ass off in spite of losing the perks and prestige of being Speaker unlike some (cough) Newt (cough) (cough).
BGinCHI
@And Another Thing…: Wrong. Newt has been working his fat ass off at being wrong about everything he weighs in on as well as making a lot of money being wrong about everything. His sweat equity in the wrong is, like, gigantic.
Keith G
Nancy needs to stay. She is a good citizen and was a highly effective leader and then Speaker.
Being loyal to those who have, with tenacity and honor, fought for you is not a weakness. Quite the opposite, Nick. There is a strength to be had when finding common cause with someone so committed and so able.
I think of Lincoln’s defense of Grant. She fights. She fights.
BGK
Well, now that tthe sun’s down it’s abouut 50 degrees and I’m freezing, which many of you probably find nancy-in-a-not-Pelosi way.
Lurked
If it’s true that a lot of the results of the election were due to Republican voters who didn’t vote in 2008 showing up (and presumably Democratic constituencies not showing up much beyond a usual midterm) then I don’t think the election had much if anything to do with policies and possibly less to do with the economy than CW might say. I saw the Chamber of Commerce ads that showed Nancy Pelosi and Barak Obama side by side. They didn’t show Harry Reid. I wonder why not???
Would these newly energized Republican voters happen to be those low-income, low-education, low-information whites who, according to some studies, are convinced that Obama hates whites and is changing things to favor blacks over whites? Their objection to HCR has nothing to do with the lack of a public option or anything else relating to policy, it’s because they are convinced it’s intended to benefit blacks. Of course this is really to cover up or rationalize their own racism (and presumably sexism), but I’m sure they believe it just as some people believe that Proctor and Gamble had a satanic symbol as their logo.
So we’re supposed to replace Nancy Pelosi as leader because a lot of Archie Bunkers voted. OK. They may well be back in 2012 to get the [epithet deleted] out of the White House, but there is nothing we can do about that, Obama cannot change his skin color. Sacrificing Pelosi wouldn’t turn Obama white.
General Stuck
@And Another Thing…:
I’m already over my grief and been gaming out the possibilities that are possible now with the wingers having the House. Not to diminish some awful cases of heartburn from individual acts of bizarre shit from their antics.
Most likely, very little will get passed in this atmosphere, and Obama and dems know it. There are some items like budgetary and deficit ceiling stuff, and some must pass legislation to be serious about and dare the wingnuts block those.
But now Obama is free to offer up, and the senate possibly all sorts of more liberal bills, where before running the whole show, they had to propose everything, just about, with intent or allowance that it would become law, or suffer the blame for failure.
The liberal bills will also be painfully pragmatic for the goopers to reject, and be of the sort that even folks with minimal common sense will see as being basically beneficial to common voters. Obama can focus on apparent compromise, but not enough to satisfy the hard core wingnuts, who will be under the watchful eyes of the tea tards, and will reject any compromise short of everything they want.
And I know the left has complained about compromises from Obama to the wingnuts the past two years, but it was faux compromise of pol theater, because the wingers were not players, and any meaningful compromise was entirely within the dem caucus with other dems.
It will still be pol theater, but now wingnuts run the House and are accountable, and cannot only hide behind permanent filibusters in the senate.
And having a republican run House defeat his proposals will be harder for the media to ignore or cover for. And the pro left will have a choice. Either to join in fighting the wingers, or continue to oppose Obama. And the only way to oppose Obama now, is to continue to live in the past two years and blame him for losing the House in the first place, which will make them look sillier than they already do.
Anybody got any good drugs?
And Another Thing...
@BGinCHI: As we were discussing the fate of Speakers who lose their majorities, I was attempting to draw a distinction between Nancy who seems to have decided to stay in the House and lead her party and that other guy who quit and who’s a carbuncle.
BGinCHI
@And Another Thing…: I was agreeing with you and piling onto his fat stupid ass.
If they made a movie about him they’d have to audition a lot of pigs until they found one that could talk.
J sub D
@Omnes Omnibus:
I disagree. The way to health care reform palatable to both the public and the Dems was incrementally. The overreaching 1200 page clusterfuck of a bill (Obama and Reid bear much blame here as well) that eventually passed choked the public as it was rammed down their throats.
‘Twas a bridge or six too far and it cost the Dems the house. The Speaker gets some of the blame for that.
ETA – I’m no Dem or GOPer, just an interested observer. I’m sure the GOP is going to overplay their hand in the next few months as well. They don’t seem to realize that all they won is the House, that the Senate and Oval Office are still Democratic.
And Another Thing...
@BGinCHI: You know, I needed the laugh, Thanx.
Omnes Omnibus
@J sub D: Clearly, you would disagree. I was taking issue with what you had said. You are still wrong for the reason I stated.
Yutsano
@J sub D: Apparently you’re not paying attention. According to post-election analysis, HCR wasn’t even on the radar. The overwhelming reasoning behind votes was jobs jobs jobs. That was the huge issue and the vote was a direct reflection of that.
Davis X. Machina
@J sub D: If health reform had been any more incremental, it’d have been homeopathic.
General Stuck
@J sub D:
Who got the blame when LBJ passed civil rights and medicare, and ran a big portion of dem politicians in the south over to the GOP and helped get Nixon elected in 68, and that made the republicans more electorally viable ever since?
Point is, sometimes you have to do the right thing even if it will lose you the House for a couple of years, or 4. But with HCR, after 4 years, it should start helping dems, maybe a lot.
But I doubt HCR was what lost the House. I think it was and is a country in a rather big evolutionary flux, facing it’s racial and racist past, and also the effects of giving the wingers the keys again, after they have nearly destroyed our economy, that could not be fixed in just two years. It is a country in the middle of a nervous breakdown, that gave the House to the wingnuts, and is about impossible to parse out blame for such an obvious neurotic election.
If we survive the near term, we might just survive
bootsy
@Lurked: Wow, you really (no snark) just said exactly what I was thinking about this election.
It’s depressing that the final passage of some sort of health care reform, against all odds, cancelling 60+ years of failure on this issue didn’t inspire more than the normal amount of dem. mid-term voters to get out there. Not “nationalizing” every congressional race is the mistake Dems always always always make. (EDIT: And can Pelosi be blamed for that? I doubt it.)
Sly
Both Pelosi and Clyburn have been awesome (Clyburn moreso, I’d argue). Hoyer I can take or leave, and I’m generally skeptical about “heads must roll!” arguments.
That aside, the Democrats should prefer to give their leadership spots, inside and outside Congress (i.e. DNC Chair) to people who lack any aversion to, or ideally have a preference for, going for the jugular. They need to be ready, willing, and able to beat the shit out of all these new Republicans on a daily basis. Hurt them where they live. When asked what their strategy is for the next two years, they need to say this.
And Heath Schuler can suck a bag of dicks.
MaximusNYC
The teabaggers didn’t see Pelosi that way until Fox News told them to.
And anyone who replaced her would, in very short order, be turned into the next Communist Muslim-loving villain in the rogue’s gallery.
Picking Democratic leaders based on what Republicans think of them is truly asinine.
Mnemosyne
@Jamie:
I would start with whatever idiot campaign consultant told House members that running against a popular president would be a good idea. If you’re in a red district and you’re getting campaign commercials from both sides saying they don’t like the president’s policies and they’re going to try and block whatever he does, why on earth would you vote for the Democrat over the Republican?
Mnemosyne
@J sub D:
Rolling it out in a series of steps spread out over 4-6 years wasn’t incremental enough for you? What did you want, a series of even more miniscule steps over the next 25 years?
Moses2317
@MaximusNYC:
Amen! And yet that is what Democrats keep doing – basing their actions on what Republicans might say or think, rather than on what is right for our country and party. I am hoping that we can make keeping Pelosi into an important step toward not taking that approach in the future.
Winning Progressive
El Cid
@Davis X. Machina: Awesome.
Moses2317
@Jamie:
Blue Dogs. They are the ones who prevented the Democrats from being adequately bold on the economy – larger stimulus, cramdown, more aggressive posture toward Wall Street, etc. – and thereby led us into an election with a crappy economy. With a better economy, a heck of a lot of Democrats would have won, including a number of the Blue Dogs.
Winning Progressive
Lurked
@bootsy:
Democratic constituencies are, as a friend of mine with a degree in political science says, “not invested in the system.” They are younger, they are minorities, etc. I don’t know how to make them appreciate that it’s important to vote in every election. Anybody who succeeds at that would be in great demand as a consultant, I presume.
There is no question that the economy was a major factor. “Independents” in particular tend to vote against whatever party is in power when the economy is weak. But in this case the prejudices of a substantial part of the population could be focused on leaders who were not white males and that exacerbated the situation, IMHO.
I really do fear what might happen when resource constraints really start to bite in perhaps 10-20 years.
Sly
@J sub D:
Whenever someone makes the page count argument, my immediate assumption is that they’ve never seen legislative language. Incremental and small page count do not go hand in hand.
aimai
I think its the “rammed down their throats” that’s the giveaway.
aimai
Cat Lady
@Sly:
Thisety this this this. It’s called the bitch slap theory of politics and we need it now. Voters like it. Barney Frank can do it every day and twice on Sunday, but who else? They’re all too willing to compromise.
J sub D
@Mnemosyne:
Lumping it all into one bill was the mistake politically if what your goal is winning the next election. If your goal is strike while the iron’s hot and damn the consequences, the Dems failed on DADT and DREAM (stuff I supported, grrr!) Health care will get amended but it won’t get repealed (anti-democracy things like the filibuster and veto will ensure that), so you should all take comfort in the “achievement”.
And Another Thing...
@J sub D: The people who made all the noise about health care were retirees scared to death of death panels and keep your government hands off my Medicare. And the Dems did almost NO counter arguing mostly, I think, because they were a) taken by surprise and b) up to their necks in the arcane details of legislating. The opportunists on the right then rediscovered the deficit and socia. 1ism and voila.
It’s just astonishing how bad the Dem Party is at messaging. Tim Kaine is fricking invisible and therefore nearly worthless.
This is a HUGE problem. R’s just make shit up and the Dems NEVER push back. Can’t somebody hire Alan Grayson & have him be a talking head who shows up to argue with Bill Bennett?
Omnes Omnibus
@aimai: That was the point where I decided that a substantive discussion was rather unlikely.
Nicole
@KG: Oh my God, I closed my Bloodhorse.com, derbytrail.com and ESPN windows and came here so I could forget my Zenyatta sorrows for awhile. And then you had to post it. Have you no mercy?
wasabi gasp
As a symbolic gesture of good faith during the next session, Nancy should adorn herself with automatic weapons.
Nicole
@Ben: Thanks. Clearly I need to call my Rep again.
cleter
@Davis X. Machina: The dude after Sam Rayburn. McCormack?
Mike Kay
@MaximusNYC: you couldn’t get more milquetoast and white than Harry Reid from nevada, yet that didn’t stop their propaganda apparatus from demonizing him. I mean they did the same thing to Tom Dascsle an anti-abortion, air-force veteran from south dakota.
to paraphrase “The Rock”: IT DOESN’T MATTER WHERE YOU COME FROM!
And Another Thing...
@J sub D: “so you should all take comfort in the “achievement”
This week my 15 month old niece was diagnosed with a rare cancer, and I DO take comfort that because of changes in health insurance she cannot be denied coverage.
And aimai’s right “shoved down our throats” is definitely a tell.
Moses2317
@Ben: This is great. Are you coordinating with anyone to get folks to call their Congresspeople? I plan to put up a post on this tomorrow, and can let you know if I get any results if you send me an e-mail at [email protected]
Winning Progressive
Mnemosyne
@J sub D:
And if your goal is to fix our catastrophically broken healthcare system, it was the only way to go.
Not everything is about winning an election. We passed what needed to be passed to help our fellow citizens and we took our lumps from the ungrateful bastards who think that corporations should be allowed to kill people by withholding the healthcare that their customers paid for if it will increase the company’s profits by 0.05% that year.
Mike Kay
@J sub D: dude, no one remembers how many seats LBJ lost in 1966 (48), all they remember is medicare. no one remembers that Reagan lost the senate, all they remember is that with his bare hands he single handily tore down the Berlin wall.
Anya
@eemom: they both drive me bonkers but I am with O’Donnell on this one.
mai naem
I would love me Pelosi, Clyburn, Frank and Grijalva in leadership positions because it represents the four groups that the Repubs hate – the woman, the black man, the gay guy and the Hispanic dude.
Sly
@Mike Kay:
As an addendum, no one remembers that Democrats lost 81 seats in the House and 6 in the Senate in 1938, six years after picking up 97 House seats and 12 Senate seats in 1932. Nor the double-dip recession in 1937 that cost Democrats those seats.
All they remember is that FDR could consume Republicans with balls of fire from his eyes and bolts of lighting from his ass.
Mike Kay
@Sly: libs give FDR a break because he famously passed universal healthcare….. oh wait. Well, they love him for resisting the racist wave to imprison Japanese americans…. uhm, uhm.
Elie
Nancy Pelosi
No other choice
That is all —
(cannot believe this is even being discussed!)
PanAmerican
Sam Rayburn was the 48th, 50th and 52nd Speaker of the House.
FlipYrWhig
I guess Pelosi became rather visible over these last two years, but the whole argument about how Democrats need someone more broadly appealing seems… well… made up. Dennis Hastert? Jim Wright? Tom Foley? Not only are they unappealing, they barely made an impact on the public consciousness. Gingrich is a different case — but even there he wasn’t chosen because he was so likeable or something, but because of his view of legislative strategy.
Anne Laurie
@wasabi gasp:
I generally disfavor the Heartland American(tm) fixation with guns as totems, but I would happily donate money if Ms. Pelosi wanted to do this!
Flugelhorn
@mai naem: Interesting that 31% of those who identified themselves as gay voted for Republicans this election.
NobodySpecial
@FlipYrWhig:
It came from Nick. Do you really need any more clues?
Yutsano
@Flugelhorn: Proof or get the fuck out.
Cacti
@Flugelhorn:
And now we’ll see how far gay rights advance under Speaker Boehner.
Nick
@FlipYrWhig:
They were white males who weren’t from big cities.
Nick
@jacy:
You want a Democratic majority, you should care what they think.
and yes, this is why we can’t have nice things
Observer
@General Stuck:
With all due respect, you must be thinking of some sort of Tom Tomorrow parallel universe if you think that Obama and the Dems are going to be offering up any sort of “more liberal” bills. You should remember this post of yours in, say, 6 months because you’ll be wanting another Friedman unit at that point.
Secondly,
This has got to be one of the most annoying attitudes of “centrists” such as yourself. The two things are not mutually exclusive. The “pro left” is already fighting the wingers. People are free to fight in any way they choose and if they disagree on tactics then tough sh*t it doesn’t mean they weren’t fighting.
The only beef with Obama was their perception that Obama is fighting them incorrectly. You may disagree with them, hate them for being “childish” or what have you but basically the “pro left” has been telling Obama to “stop being a pussy and let’s do this thing”. What we got luke warm weak tea instead.
The Dems got clobbered at the polls so one might say that Obama’s way obviously didn’t work. But in your mind this apparently means that we must double down on the Obama way and/or that Obama is suddenly going to change his spots and offer “more liberal” bills. Or something.
Nick
@aimai:
dude, I agree with you, I said as much. I’m just saying, we shouldn’t totally ignore them. If she’s going to be Minority Leader, we need someone else alongside her who can appeal to these people.
Like I said, Health Shuler with Nancy Pelosi politics.
Nick
@Josie:
No, they lost the house because of Fox News, Citizens United and the Senate.
They hate Boehner, they hate Pelosi a little less, but there are a lot and I MEAN A LOT of pussies in the Democratic Party (I’m talking voters) who never liked Pelosi, but put up with her, and now are scared shit and want some cowboy, farm John Wayne type to lead the party so they can stop being pussies.
Nick
@Anne Laurie:
It would be much easier for Obama if he had been born of two white parents.
slightly_peeved
Considering how few people who argue about the bill on the internet have actually read it, I’d say the number of people in public who have any idea what’s in the bill, let alone voted because of it, is pretty fricking minimal.
Nick
@aimai:
More often than not, for Republicans
Nick
@Davis X. Machina:
John McCormack
slightly_peeved
No, they lost the house because they’re 2 years in to a new presidency and the economy’s in the shitter. It happened to Reagan and Clinton too. It’s not like people who were previously solid blocs for the Democrats started voting Republican; no-one really changed their opinions. Just lots of old white people voted and lots of young people didn’t.
This keeps happening – voters for the incumbent party stay home in midterms – so the solution should be to look at longer term methods of getting Democrats out and voting, all the time, rather than worrying about whether the leader of the party in the house is this person or that person. If the same thing happens when old white guys are running the government, changing back to old white guys is probably not going to do much to prevent it.
Nick
@slightly_peeved:
Except a large swath of gay and female voters.
Yes, but who else can we turn to? It’s pretty clear Nancy Pelosi doesn’t have the ears of young voters. Who does? Do we make Snooki Minority Leader?
One thing Shuler has is his history as a football player, albeit a bad one,
I’m not saying she shouldn’t be Minority Leader. I’m saying she needs to NOT be the only face of the party. A large diverse party like the Democrats needs multiple faces. We need someone who appeals to young voters. Maybe Al Franken needed to be in the House and not the Senate.
Yes, it’s this simplistic and stupid.
asiangrrlMN
Fuck y’all who want to get rid of Nancy SMASH! for whatever reason. I sent her an email congratulating her on all her hard work, and this, this is how some of you want to reward her? I have tried to hold my tongue, but no more. Fuck all the white males who are soooo uncomfortable with strong women or people of color or teh gayz being in power. And, fuck this country if we are so weak that we allow these assholes to take over. I don’t care if these people who are uncomfortable with Nance SMASH are so-called progressives or conservatives or anywhere in between. You’ve had your day in the sun. You’ve fucked up this country just about as bad as it can get (though, given the chance in 2012, it may just get worse). Do I think people in the minorities are inherently better people? No. But we certainly can’t do a hell of a lot worse than what’s been happening thus far.
ETA: And fuck the young who couldn’t be half-assed to go vote, anyway.
ETA, Part Deux: This is the kind of bullshit that really turns ME off from politics, and I bet plenty of other minorities feel the same way. So, think about cultivating our goddamn votes for once.
@Josie: Back off. He’s mine.
slightly_peeved
@Nick:
Given the Republicans went through the same thing in 1982 that the Democrats just did, what’s the basis to the argument that the personal popularity of the Speaker has anything to do with levels of turnout?
The low turnout for incumbents in midterms is a structural issue. You could have Spongebob Squarepants as Speaker and it wouldn’t affect turnout much.
Mnemosyne
Nick, I don’t mean to be rude, but have you been drinking? You’re not making a whole lot of sense tonight.
Nick
@Mnemosyne:
I’m playing devil’s advocate Mnem. I don’t want to get rid of Pelosi, but a lot of Democrats do.
I’m just saying, if we want to reinvigorate the youth vote, Pelosi isn’t going to do it, neither is Shuler, you need some combination of the two.
Nick
@slightly_peeved:
Pelosi’s unpopularity isn’t what kept young voters home. They’re ambivalent toward her. They didn’t turn out because they just don’t care.
Pelosi isn’t going to fix that.
Angry Black Lady
@asiangrrlMN: seconded.
slightly_peeved
@Nick:
Neither would her replacement. So why should that matter in picking her?
Mnemosyne
@Nick:
No Speaker of the House is going to fix that, because no one other than political junkies cares who that is. So why swap her out for someone who would be less effective at rallying the caucus?
Nick
@And Another Thing…:
Alan Grayson isn’t exactly the poster boy for “Messaging that resonates with voters”
Nick
@slightly_peeved: It shouldn’t. I never said don’t pick her. I said there needs to be MORE faces, in other positions, that appeal to different demographics.
@Mnemosyne:
Is she the MOST effective person at rallying the caucus after Tuesday?
The Raven
I think it’s interesting that the surviving House Democrats are now mostly liberals, while the surviving Senate Democrats are mostly conservatives. Pelosi is a sensible choice for House Minority Leader–she is very strong and reflects the politics of the House Democrats–but she is likely to see strong opposition from the Party leadership, the Senate Democratic Leadership, and Obama. Pelosi is one of the people who got the health care bill through, at considerable cost to her own political career and, indeed, that of all the House Democrats. I would hope that Obama would stand behind her for that reason alone. But I don’t expect him to: I see little evidence that Obama recognizes or acknowledges his friends and supporters.
Flugelhorn
@Yutsano: Go fuck yourself, Yutsano. I assume you know how to Google something. Be careful. The facts might get in your way. Prick.
Yutsano
@Flugelhorn: ROTFL. You’re not even trying any more. Besides which it’s called burden of proof, and you haz it. Your assertion, you back your own shit up. Put up, shut up, or get off my screen.
morzer
@Flugelhorn:
Bit of masturbation anxiety there, eh? Isn’t it time for you to tell us that you are not a witch?
Flugelhorn
@Yutsano: Considering you are an idiot, I will pick one of the many articles from my very simple search and lay it out for you.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2010/results/polls/#val=USH00p2
Do try not to swallow your own tongue.
Yutsano
@Flugelhorn: Do or do not. Stop yapping, you’re really getting tiresome.
morzer
@Yutsano:
I think you’ve definitely drawn blood. Clear poutitude.
Flugelhorn
@Yutsano: Did you click the link or is your widdle hand shaking too much?
morzer
@Flugelhorn:
Given what your hot little hand is doing, phrases about pots and kettles come to mind.
Triassic Sands
Pelosi deserves credit for much of what was accomplished in the past two years. I’m fairly certain that left to her the health care reform legislation would be a much better bill than the one that ultimately passed.
Blue Dog Democrats have nothing to offer. They’re a bunch of Republican Lite whiners with no coherent vision. Listening to them now *or ever) would be a mistake.
If the Democrats toss out Pelosi, it will be just one more sign that they are finished. I’ve already contacted my representative to inform him that I expect him to support her should she decide to run for minority leader.
The only Democrat I would support in place of Pelosi would be one who is at least as liberal as Pelosi and more engaging personally. Since no such candidate is likely to appear, I see no reason for Democrats to punish Pelosi for things she didn’t do.
In general, I think American politicians hang around much too long, so I wouldn’t be opposed to Pelosi stepping aside voluntarily, as long as her successor were not to her political right. But I don’t support her ouster and if she chooses to run for minority leader, I certainly support her over any worthless Blue Dog candidate.
Yutsano
@Flugelhorn: I did. Now we do this little game I like to call statistical analysis. That’s where you check the cross tabs to see if the data actually tells you anything about the subject.
Take 17,504 respondents, multiply by 3% (the number of self-identifying as gay or bisexual). You end up with 525. Multiply that by 31%, you get 162. That’s called statistical noise. It is not a significant sample to draw any conclusion from. What else ya got?
morzer
@Flugelhorn:
You are a statistically illiterate arse-head. You missed the key fact – the percentage of respondents who said YES they were lgbt was 3% – and of that 3% a mighty 31% voted Republican.
In other words, about 1% of the (admittedly small) sample were gay and voted Republican.
This is not earth-shattering news, child.
Flugelhorn
@Yutsano: No, you are correct of course. If the results do not meet your perceptions of reality, then just discount them. You progressives are amazingly adept at selective perception. Genius! Bravo.
Yutsano
@Flugelhorn: It’s called teh maths dude. Those are YOUR numbers that YOU presented. It is not an accurate reflection because IT IS NOT A SIGNIFICANT SAMPLE SIZE.
morzer
@Flugelhorn:
Children who can’t read cross-tabs should be neither seen, nor heard.
This has been another edition of explaining basic statistics to trolls with an IQ level somewhere below freezing.
morzer
@Yutsano:
I suspect flugelhorn thinks of math as a morally dubious foreign invention. Those wily old Greeks and their filthy, dirty, sexy mathematics! (And Ayrabs and Indians too).
Yutsano
@morzer: Damn those Hindus and enforcing their dreaded heathen concept of zero on good Christian folk!
(Do we get to tell him algebra is an Arabic invention too? Huh? Huh?)
morzer
@Yutsano:
I wonder if Flugelhorn needs a refresher in basic math….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K71MckOTt1M
morzer
@Yutsano:
Give him five minutes and he’ll start explaining that Jeebus preached against number theory to the dinosaurs.
Pat
She is the best leader they have, whether they want to admit it or not.
Can you see Hoyer standing up to Tan Man? I think not.
Keep Nancy. She has more balls than the rest of them put together, including the President!
Jamie
Democrats would be fools to let the GOP have another scalp. Period.
…Thus demonstrating exactly what they’ll do.
“Democrats: no foot left shot.”