Everybody wants a piece of John these days:
Describing an incident in which the local utility company chose to – without notice – rip out some of his trees in order to replace his water meter as “Why People Hate Government,” John Cole asserts:
”If libertarians would focus on crap like this instead of all the smug bullshit and contrarian economic analysis, they might actually be able to build their party.”
There are so many things wrong in this sentence that I think it quite perfectly illustrates ignorance (from Cole and plenty of others) about libertarians in general. The fact of the matter is that libertarians actually do focus on things like this quite a bit, and indeed proportionally more than do other ideologicalical groups. Of course, Cole focuses his writing almost exclusively on national politics, so he would rarely encounter the myriad libertarians who focus on local property rights issues and things of that nature.
[….]All of which is simply to say that there’s a big difference between the caricature of libertarians and actual libertarians. People who are not libertarians are certainly free to disclaim and ridicule libertarian thought on economic and welfare policy as “smug bullshit and economic analysis” – and sometimes they may even be right! – but to reduce libertarianism to just those areas where one disagrees with it is to rather miss the entire fucking point.
The post is self-congratulatory, trite, and a desperate attempt to get us to link, but I do see his point. I know plenty of libertarians locally who are very reasonable and spend time thinking about concrete issues, not just masturbating to thoughts of Dagny Taggart. And it’s not their fault that many of the Koch family’s propaganda factories describe themselves as “libertarian”.
But it’s not John’s fault either. If tomorrow morning, Nick Gillespie, Megan McArdle, and Glenn Reynolds started describing their Randian-Cheneyan-Hooverist nonsense as liberalism, I’d be pissed off too. But I’d start by criticizing them, not by whining about how bloggers never talked about all the great stuff True Liberals were doing at the local level.
Jon H
YAY: NPR SHITCANNED JUAN WILLIAMS over comments about Muslims made on Fox.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/21/business/media/21npr.html?hp
Buffalo Rude
Has anyone else noticed that the right wing has cranked the “whiny bitch” knob to 11? Or is it just me?
And I mean that in the most offensive and pejorative sense possible.
SectarianSofa
If I thought libertarians ever had anything interesting to say at all, ever, about anything, I might take a second look at their magic ponies.
SectarianSofa
@Buffalo Rude:
If you are including libertarians in your definition of ‘right wing,’ I predict more hurt fee-fees. You jerk.
West of the Cascades
+ 4, but somehow this vaguely reminds me of something from The Prisoner:
The Prisoner: “Who is John Galt?”
Answer: “You are John Cole!”
Omnes Omnibus
@SectarianSofa: Libertarianism is an interesting thought experiment, but then so is wondering what the world would be like without zinc.
Sly
@Jon H:
“I’m no bigot, I just obstinately cling to my own irrational prejudices against those who look and act differently than I.”
I wonder if Mr. Williams had difficulty getting a cab ride after he left the FOX building that day.
robertdsc-PowerBook & 27 titles
Personally, I think they’ve moved into the Predator drone strike stage because these assholes are definitely a threat to the country.
Batocchio
You’re being extremely generous here.
suzanne
@Buffalo Rude:
No, it’s not just you. They whine more than my six-year-old.
I’ve been reading all day, and I’m just so depressed. The Ginny Thomas thing just pushed me over the edge. A third to half of this country is completely fucking batshit, and I don’t know how to make common cause anymore, and I’m not sure if it’s even worth trying.
SectarianSofa
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ha.
And the weird thing is, libertarians are exactly like the first-year college students who never got over the first cool thought experiment they ever thought experimented. (While stoned.)
srv
I suppose in their ivory towers, these real libertarians make sense to themselves by finding such offense at what we say, and not what the fake libertarians who, uh, control the message, say and do.
I think we can safely say the set of “real” libertarians are those who are cowards.
suzanne
@SectarianSofa:
My first collegiate while-stoned thought experiment was thus: “Oh my God, what if you were Siamese twins, and one of you wanted to be a gynecologist, and the other wanted to be a prostitute?! HAHAHAHAAAA! Oh my God, whoa. Pass the Skittles.”
That was more interesting than libertarianism.
burnspbesq
The inevitable problem with labels is that they inevitably become caricatures and strawmen. They imply the existence of a rigidly uniform set of beliefs and attitudes where it is far more likely that no such thing exists. They become substitutes for actually understanding what someone believes, and erect artificial barriers to dialogue. And it leads, ultimately, to comments like SectarianSofa’s.
The problem with “libertarian” as a label is that many decent libertarian ideas have been hijacked by the radical right and used for very non-libertarian ends. An example would be the idea that proposed regulations should be subjected to cost-benefit analysis. In its original form, this was an idea worthy of being taken seriously; too much regulation can be every bit as bad as too little. Alas, once the Republicans got hold of the idea, it became a way to block needed regulations at the behest of business lobbyists.
I’m less interested in the label, which has relatively little ability to predict a person’s actual belief structure. Tell me what a person believes, and I’ll make my own judgments about the value of those beliefs.
SectarianSofa
@West of the Cascades:
Hmm. I have the strangest feeling I’m going to be dreaming about that tonight. Gratuitously, I hope dagny taggart makes it into the episode. (It’ll just be the one episode, fortunately, and she won’t reappear in the series….)
John Cole
I read that post yesterday and could not figure out his point, so I didn’t bother responding. It would have been like trying to argue with someone who only uses pig latin to debate. I also kind of got lost in the comments when they all started to argue that the point of the libertarian party wasn’t to win elections.
burnspbesq
@suzanne:
That’s downright weird. Got any more of that stuff?
burnspbesq
@burnspbesq:
Fuck. I need to proofread better.
Yutsano
@burnspbesq: Heh. Sure. Rub it in that there are those of us who can’t indulge in Mary Jane’s goodness. Right next to some of the best shit in the world too.
DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.
@John Cole:
Someone just emailed it to me. Also, he’s right about local libertarians, but he has to come to grips with the fact that Reason et al. give libertarianism a bad name.
Buffalo Rude
@SectarianSofa: Piss on ’em, I say. With vigor!
suzanne
@burnspbesq:
Sadly, no. But I’ve got some Skittles!
SectarianSofa
@John Cole:
Yeah, the point of the libertarian party is to use grits as a screwdriver, apparently. Go libertarians.
burnspbesq
@Yutsano:
Yeah, that is the downside. But you’ve got a decent job with a career path and spiffy benefits. I could be wrong, but I kinda doubt that you’re seriously second-guessing yourself.
Morbo
Dear Mark Thompson:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/
Go there and try to tell me that half of those posts aren’t written by conservative hacks. Have fun.
Allan
That first part is, indeed, very libertarian of the author. Self-evident, but coherent.
But I keep coming back to the second part, where he acknowledges that some of his beliefs are “smug bullshit” and yet continues to defend them anyway.
burnspbesq
@suzanne:
And I’ve got some leftover pizza. Seems we were made for each other.
burnspbesq
@SectarianSofa:
Beats the heck out of using them as food.
SectarianSofa
@DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.:
Not to be glib, but I thought libertarians being fucking retarded was the reason libertarians had a bad name.
[The other kind of libertarians aren’t even Libertarians — they’ve just joined a sort of semi-wonk semi-geek club for ‘independents’ who fancy experimenting with some interesting ideas while prentending not to care about things that would matter to non-blockheads, like political viability. If you want to win, you can’t join. Their own purity and the reality-based nature of the system makes that structurally impossible. ]
Mark S.
I don’t know how to link comments over there, but which one of you left this one?
Yeah Cole, where the fuck are the posts on Drew Carey?
Yutsano
@burnspbesq: You have leftover pizza and a sixteen year old son? Is he cutting weight for wrestling or something?
That in and of itself is more than enough incentive (the time off rules alone should make everyone mad jealous of my job, I heart my union) but the true reason is actually physiological. Pot gives me migraines, severely. The suggestion is my brain metabolizes it too fast, but it’s just easier to say I’m allergic and skip the whole deal.
Buffalo Rude
@suzanne: Perpetual self declared victims.
A crucifixion even.
SectarianSofa
@DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.:
If you wandered into a libertarian’s home and sneaked into their closet, would you be more likely to find:
a) a useful political idea
or
b) the complete skeleton of an adult dolphin, with one half covered in peanut butter, and the other half wrapped in liner notes from early Rush albums?
I’m not betting on ‘a.’
Roger Moore
@Mark S.:
Isn’t that DougJ’s metier?
Lev
@Mark S.: He was recently pretty funny on Community as a lawyer with a hole in his hand. What else is there to say?
I don’t know if many people here went through a libertarian phase. I did. I have to admit that the philosophy has an appealing simplicity to it, and a lot of consistency in how the principles apply across different areas of policy. But I abandoned it after a while because almost every one of its assumptions is obviously untrue and I couldn’t handle the cognitive dissonance anymore. The notion that every law restricts freedom is complete bullshit if you think hard for two seconds, and reflects a completely negative and severely blinkered view of human freedom. Most libertarians allow for some sort of minimal state that handles courts, police, etc., but that pretty much demolishes the principle altogether. After all, taxes have to pay all those folks’ jobs, so therefore taxes must make us more free. QED. The idea that the market can solve nearly every problem in a morally acceptable way requires some extremely potent prequalifiers that negate the premise, and reflects an excessive faith in systems built by humans. And the notion that a modern nation-state can handle its complexity with some sort of 19th-century structure of government is contrary to what economics and social sciences tell us.
Add it all up, and what you have is a system that appeals to young, naive idealists with more good intentions than knowledge and little in the way of life experience outside a specific upper-middle class bubble. That described me at one time, and it describes most libertarians I know, but I grew out of it. What’s the excuse of the 40 year olds working at Reason? They still believe that unregulated markets are best after the financial collapse? That’s perilously close to moral failure, not just political misjudgment.
Arclite
I view all the attention that JC and BJ is getting these days as validation that not only is the site speaking truth to power, but also that it’s growing in influence.
All good things as far as I’m concerned. Nothing like BJ to bring some sanity to our insane political system.
Martin
All the libertarians I know are either economists or bond traders. The only population keeping them from having a really awesome libertarian party are zombies.
Martin
@Arclite: Yes, we’re definitely getting under people’s skin. Apparently we’re also foul-mouthed and use sexual acts as metaphors too often.
Of course, that’s bound to happen when you’re getting fucked.
KG
@burnspbesq:
That’s pretty much where I’m at. There’s smug bullshit all around. There are also good ideas all around. Ideas and intentions matter more. I consider myself fairly libertarian, and I get annoyed by the bullshit spewed in the name of libertarianism because it is so completely disconnected from reality.
Yutsano
@Martin:
One would think we could at least enjoy it. Or get a cigarette afterwards.
KG
@Lev:
I think in its simplest, stupidest form, you are right. But it’s not how I understand the philosophy. I think of it more as Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence about governments formed to protect inalienable rights. I think of it more as Hamilton wrote about in the Federalist Papers of ordered liberty vs license. Limited government does not mean no government. But because the mantle has been taken over by oligarchs (the Kochs) and anarchists (the Libertarian Party), actually thinking deeply about it gets a bit lost.
Midnight Marauder
@John Cole:
Because they don’t have an ideology that can translate into a model for effective, competent governing.
So they’re good with property rights. Whoop.de.fucking.doo.
+6
Uncle Clarence Thomas
Speaking of libertarians, I don’t understand why anyone would ever trust a selfish person.
Chuck Butcher
I don’t quite understand the level of stupidity it takes to adhere to a system that sets up all kinds of magical conditions in order to work – er, be proposed as working. Call their bullshit and the whining starts, especially the part about their level of intellectual developement of whatever the latest Kaakaa is.
Triassic Sands
The original sentence argues strongly that Mark Johnson hasn’t read much of Cole’s work over the past year. I continue to hope JC will return to serious engagement with national politics, but I’m not holding my breath.
asiangrrlMN
@Arclite: I gotta say, I agree. The fact that Cole and BJ is getting more ink (metaphorically) is a good thing, methinks. And, if he can continue to piss off the Very Serious People, more so the better.
Jewish Steel
Has anyone ever met a non white male Libertarian? I haven’t. I’m genuinely curious.
I could get behind a libertarianism of, say, migrant farm workers. Or the generationally underprivileged. Those are some folks whose rights are often trodden upon and whose scant possessions could use protecting.
But every Libertarian I’ve ever met is an almost smart, middle class white dude.
Mark
@Jewish Steel: No, I don’t believe there’s such a thing as a non-white male libertarian. It appeals to two kinds of people: 1) guys from wealthy families who’ve never contemplated how the rest of the country isn’t that far from poverty; 2) guys who felt misunderstood in high school, read ayn rand, and thought the book were about how brilliant they were and how everyone who didn’t like them was going to suffer.
You either need no empathy or complete arrogance to be a libertarian.
Jewish Steel
Coincidentally, I happened to meet a friend of the Libertarian candidate for governor of my state. A young fella, he very earnestly told me that Lex Green (I think that’s his name) was very much in favor of responsible gun ownership and the” right to protest.” Thinking, wrongly, that these are subjects which might be dear to my heart.
I asked him if I would be allowed to bring my responsibly owned gun to this hypothetical protest that was my right to make. Of course, he didn’t laugh.
b-psycho
The irony behind corporatists & their lackeys being associated with “libertarian” is that corporate capitalism only survives due to constant intervention. Some of this is in the form of revolt insurance to the peasants, but mostly by way of subsidy, both direct & indirect, for concentrated wealth.
Clearly these fools aren’t familiar with the saying “be careful what you wish for”, otherwise they wouldn’t adopt a mask of property rights for their agenda. What happens when enough of the peasants realize their property has been stolen?
suzanne
@JewishI Steel:
I know one who is gay, but he fits all your listed categories. And he’s the type of gay dude who pretends to be straight when he perceives benefit. When I pointed out that the ability to pretend that one is a member of the dominant class is a privilege, he lectured me about “how painful it is to hide”, though he still likes that social capital at times. He also is going to med school, completely funded by government grants and loans.
Jewish Steel
@suzanne
Wow. Yeah, behaviorally he sounds typical.
There is something melancholy about libertarians too.
Anne Laurie
@Jewish Steel:
__
I know a few who are white, middle-class women… all but one of them “professional mommies” or non-working wives married to those white male Libertarians. In fact, the only person in my circle of acquaintances who ever actually ran for office as a Libertarian (thirty-plus years ago, when we were all living in a midwestern college town) is female. Needless to say, she lost. She excused her total failure to campaign on the fact that she’d only registered to run because her then-boyfriend & his fellow Libertarians “forced” her to do so.
On the other hand, she’s lived a very nice life in what I’m told is one of the richest (and most conservative) areas of California without, to my knowledge, ever having to stoop to paid employment, so quite arguably she’s more “successful” than I’ll ever be. She married that boyfriend, who’s a highly-paid geekworker, so apparently it was logically debated & agreed that her advanced math degree & Mensa-level IQ would best be used supervising the paid housekeeping & groundkeeping staff, with an occasional stint of tutoring ‘disadvantaged youth’ for the Lady Bountiful cred. This, and following the sort of political/military blogs that consider Darrell Issa slightly too squishy, keeps her busy and, so I’m told, happy. I’m a progressive, I try not to judge. (Mock, yes; judge, no.)
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Midnight Marauder:
I think Robot Chicken did a great job on the libertarian party in this clip.
IMO, it pretty much sums up the libertarians in one short clip.
We are airborne mini-dirt.
Jewish Steel
@Anne Laurie:
That’s just too delicious. You couldn’t write stuff like that, you know?
something fabulous
@Triassic Sands: Did you miss that they were talking about Juan– not John– Cole? I do like what writing of the former’s I’ve read, but he could perhaps do with more about pets.
Batocchio
@Jewish Steel:
I have, but in my experience, they’re pretty rare. White upper middle class women are probably the next biggest set, but I suspect there’s quite a drop in numbers. (There was a Reason piece linked here earlier this year that extolled the golden age of capitalism in America or what-not post Civil War. As I recall, the piece also ignored or glossed over such pesky details as women not being able to vote, Jim Crow laws, the importance of child labor laws, etc. Women tend not to ignore the vote thing as easily as men, and at least one woman brought the vote issue up in the comment thread.) The club has plenty of white guys who really hate paying taxes and feel they’re a personal affront (especially if those taxes pay for social services that benefit minorities). It’s a privileged, cloistered world view lamentably never expanded by life experience, study or deeper reflection. Plus, being a whore for the Kochs at Reason pays well.
Pretty much everything good about libertarianism is already covered by liberalism, and there’s plenty of places where libertarianism is unworkable or unrealistic, to put it charitably. “Libertarianism” can be useful for critiques and a gadfly role as long as its adherents recognize its extreme limitations, that Hayek was dead wrong about his slippery slope predictions, and that Ayn Rand was a sociopath and a dreadful writer (well, the last may be too much to hope for). I agree that the labels can be distracting, and prefer asking people what they believe and why, time allowing and assuming they’re generally decent and all that. That said, about 90% of self-described libertarians seem to be assholes and/or idiots. Some of that crowd use “libertarian” mainly for affectation or to disown the disastrous consequences of the policies and people they supported, much like the teabaggers. It’s just re-branding or cover. Or there’s the old line about a libertarian being a conservative who wants to smoke pot and get laid. At a certain point, claiming someone isn’t a true libertarian is as laughable as Eric Erickson, Jonah Goldberg and the gang trying to play their ol’ “he wasn’t a real conservative” game when one of their buddies falls from grace. There’s that small percentage who are sincere and thoughtful, but it’s not too hard to suss them out. One sign: They tend not to argue like Katherine Mangu-Ward, with her cheerful, breezy defenses for letting another human being’s house burn down.
vaux-rien
@Lev:
Yeah, that’s it basically, can they not see that the ADA increases freedom for millions of Americans? I guess the tyranny of handrails in bathrooms just outweighs it on principle but thus the principle is exposed as worthless.
On the other hand, if their presence on the scene resulted in even one Republican getting elected who was seriously concerned about civil liberties they’d be worthwhile. I’m not holding my breath.
Keith G
@Triassic Sands: Please, hold your breath.
brantl
@John Cole: The whole point of the Libertarian Party seems to be to use it as a psychological crutch to insulate their “beautiful” minds from the drab reality of actually having to get shit done, and done well.
I haven’t met a self-identified Libertarian yet who didn’t have a knee-jerk response to all important issues. There may be some, but I haven’t met them, and I’ve had the misfortune to meet a fair number of self-identified Libertarians. There’s some hours of my life I’ll never get back.
brendancalling
first joyner, then that dougy dude, now this guy. How many conservatives/libertarians are gonna come over here to have their asses handed to them?
i have to say, balloon juice has been my favorite, funnest blog this week, said as someone who had his ass handed to him here just two weeks ago!
burnspbesq
@Jewish Steel:
I wonder what would have happened if you had asked him “who gets to decide what constitutes ‘responsible gun ownership’?”
The two questions for which libertarianism has no good answer are “who decides” and “why do those people get to decide.”
Jay in Oregon
@Arclite:
Tell that to the people who impeached Bill Clinton.
Maude
John Cole 1
Libertarians 0
Omnes Omnibus
@Batocchio: Yes, I think most liberals agree with the concept of a limited government that provides only necessary services. The big difference is the conception of what is necessary, you know, things like business regulations, a social safety net, and actual infrastructure spending. So, as you said, liberalism covers the good that libertarianism can provide but with benefit of added realism.
RSA
__
You left out “twee”:
__
Remember November
Maybe they should stick to licking whipped cream off of bewbies like Ron Barr.
THe fact you hurt their fee-fees is proof positive the Glibertarians have no foundation.
flukebucket
@John Cole:
Maybe that is why they vote Republican.
BrianM
@b-psycho: Left-libertarians (a minority of a minority) do talk about how the status quo is the result of government intervention. Kevin Carson goes on and on about it. See http://c4ss.org/content/4189 for example. He’s a mutualist (I think). They’re more about the right to your labor than the right to your property.
Ab_Normal
@Jewish Steel: The Ur-example of the white female libertarian, in my opinion: Jacqueline Mackie Paisley Passey
grumpy realist
Ah yes, libertarians. And if you ask them to show any proof-of-concept where a society/economy has managed to be libertarian and survive, they mutter something about the government of 13th-century Iceland.
Libertarian government is one of those utopian fantasies that only work when everyone is willing to act according to the libertarian handbook. Which means a lot of informal peer pressure to keep the system going. If libertarians did manage to get a self-sustaining economy/society together, it would probably be far more akin to John Calvin’s Geneva….
Batocchio
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeah, that’s pretty much my take. I appreciate that Radley Badko and some others actually give a damn about civil liberties, even if some of their other notions are daffy. Where there’s common cause, great.
I think the other thing libertarians (at least self-described libertarians) miss or ignore the idea of checks and balances. They tend to be absolutists, and naive ones. Of course the government can be oppressive. But so can a private entity, government can check that, and at least with government citizens get a vote. Plus, in the real world, not everyone has a privileged position. Many people don’t have the choice to avoid working for the only major employer in town, drinking the polluted water, learning about the polluted water in the local news (since they don’t cover it), having the resources to sue over the polluted water (assuming tort law hasn’t been gutted yet), etc. Nor can they recover their entire retirement money stolen through fraud or resurrect a loved one killed by corporate negligence. The libertarians dissected at this site are almost always aligned with management and the ruling class. They’re typically useful idiots or eager shills for plutocracy and the abuse of power – as long as that power sports a private enterprise Donald Trump comb-over.
b-psycho
@BrianM: I put “libertarian” in quotes precisely because the original use of the term described people like Kevin — that is, anti-state left-wingers. It was a euphemism for anarchist.
The types commonly thought of today by “libertarian” adopted it because Objectivist was too obvious. Evoking liberty is vastly more popular than suggesting that concern about any other human being is evil.
TKOEd
Does anyone know a lot of computer-nerd libertarians? I seem to encounter them all the time now. All these programmers & coders seem to think they have a good chance at being rich & suddenly became libertarians.
Paula
@Arclite:
@Martin:
What’s up with that? More humorless riff raff are disrupting the snark and pet posts.
Two years ago these people probably couldn’t give two shits about “the Balloon Juice gang” (I assume because they were too busy preparing for the Xtian/libertarian/progressive/MSM centrist rapture). Can’t I read the mockery in relative peace?
Anne Laurie
@TKOEd:
__
Many of the ones I’ve known have been programmers / developers / engineers. Programs, after all, are supposed to do exactly as they’re written, no more no less. There are a lot of bright people towards the Aspergers/ASD end of the human social continuum who find the concept of coding all human interactions as efficiently as they code machine functions… soothing.
Unfortunately, if the program one writes turns out hopelessly buggy and a memory hog to boot, one can discard it and start fresh. If a human relationship is a similar catastrophic failure, it’s not nearly as easy. And for an entire working society, well…
SectarianSofa
@Anne Laurie:
I was going to say something much like that. Nothing to add there.
Although I am trying to do a block quote here, I originally Freudian slipped and used the ‘code’ tag….