I think it’s sad that people just view today as another holiday instead of reflecting on the real meaning of Columbus Day.
Consider this an open thread.
by DougJ| 99 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads
I think it’s sad that people just view today as another holiday instead of reflecting on the real meaning of Columbus Day.
Consider this an open thread.
Comments are closed.
Maude
We have people who think like 1492. Does that count?
BGinCHI
But what if Columbus (not his real name) had never discovered America? Then where would we be?
You can’t expect the Native Americans to have discovered themselves. Plus, they don’t know shit about parades.
DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.
@BGinCHI:
Columbus didn’t discover America, Jesus did.
Bob
You are correct.
My wife once worked for a Native American social services organization, who referred to today as holocaust day.
Lets just say that she did not get the day off.
Moses2317
FWIW, the most annoying team in college football – the Ohio State Poisonous Nuts – are based in Columbus.
Winning Progressive
BR
Indeed. Maybe we should rename it Read Zinn Day.
General Stuck
Back in the day, I bet it was a big relief to learn a 3 hour cruise wouldn’t cause you to fall off the planet. Notwithstanding our current dilemma of predicting peak wingnut. It’s always something
Midnight Marauder
@DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.:
Ahh, but who discovered Jesus?
Yeah, you gots nothing for that, do you?
gbear
I honored Columbus by getting lost on the way to a meeting today.
Redshift
My college marching band got banned from the local Columbus Day parade for marching with a sign reading “Leif Ericson was first!”
Italian-Americans have no sense of humor about some things…
Linda Featheringill
You mean that guy who was on trial for witchcraft and died of syphilis? And didn’t know where he was much of the time?
Note to folks who hate the Spanish for colonizing the New World:
If we erased Columbus, somebody else would have made the same journey eventually. Once shipbuilding progressed to the point where long sea voyages were a reasonable possibility, the Europeans would have come over to the Western Hemisphere sooner or later.
Would the consequences have been much different? I don’t know. Remember that the English actually weren’t kinder to the native population than the Spanish.
And it has been a long time since the French were kind to anyone.
geg6
@Bob:
Well, I, personally have always called it Native American Genocide Day. And nobody gives me the day off, either. And to think I wouldn’t use the H word because I was sure that is the thing that would piss people off. ;-)
@BR:
Heh, indeedy.
Linda Featheringill
@gbear:
LOL!
You have my vote for winner of this thread!
General Stuck
No Colombus No cheeseburgers. Simple as that.
Moses2317
@Midnight Marauder: Chuck Colson, in prison.
Quaker in a Basement
If we erased Columbus, somebody else would have made the same journey eventually.
So? Why does that mean Mr. Columbus is worthy of celebration with a 3-day mattress sale?
Comrade Luke
@DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.:
A thousand years ago!
Peter
I know quoting Kurt Vonnegut is a bit lame, but in this case it’s applicable:
A lot of the nonsense was the innocent result of playfulness on the part of the founding fathers of the nation of Dwayne Hoover and Kilgore Trout. The founders were aristocrats, and they wished to show off their useless education, which consisted of the study of hocus-pocus from ancient times. They were bum poets as well.
But some of the nonsense was evil, since it concealed great crimes. For example, teachers of children in the United States of America wrote this date on blackboards again and again, and asked the children to memorize it with pride and joy:
1492
The teachers told the children that this was when their continent was discovered by human beings. Actually, millions of human beings were already living full and imaginative lives on the continent in 1492. That was simply the year in which sea pirates began to cheat and rob and kill them.
Here was another piece of evil nonsense which children were taught: that the sea pirates eventually created a government which became a beacon of freedom to human beings everywhere else. There were pictures and statues of this supposed imaginary beacon for children to see. It was sort of an ice-cream cone on fire…
Actually, the sea pirates who had the most to do with the creation of the new government owned human slaves. They used human beings for machinery, and, even after slavery was eliminated, because it was so embarrassing, they and their descendants continued to think of ordinary human beings as machines.
The sea pirates were white. The people who were already on the continent when the pirates arrived were copper-colored. When slavery was introduced to the continent, the slaves were black.
Color was everything.
Here is how the pirates were able to take whatever they wanted from anybody else: they had the best boats in the world, and they were meaner than anybody else, and they had gunpowder, which was a mixture of potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulphur. They touched this seemingly listless powder with fire, and it turned violently into gas. This gas blew projectiles out of metal tubes at terrific velocities. The projectiles cut through meat and bone very easily; so the pirates could wreck the plumbing or bellows of a stubborn human being, even when he was far, far away.
The chief weapon of the sea pirates, however, was the capacity to astonish. Nobody else could believe, until it was much too late, how heartless and greedy they were.
scav
@gbear: You inspire me. National Geographic Confusion Day: what could be more ‘mercan? ! Gazillions of our proximate citizens honor it by being woefully illiterate about damn near everything that has a location and some of us could have fun staging parades where we all dress up, with or without instruments and floats, and wander about anywhere we please. I’d take a day off for that!
Comrade Luke
@Linda Featheringill:
I assume you’re talking about Nietzsche.
Citizen Alan
I associate Columbus with greed, bigotry, religious mania and pig-headed stupidity, all wrapped up in a mammoth self-importance.
I guess the Republicans on Columbus Day are like Scrooge — they keep the spirit of Columbus in their hearts every day of the year.
Mark S.
I probably shouldn’t pollute a brand new thread with more Halperin, but reading over it again, it is really a shitty piece. Aside from all the concern trolling and butthurt over Obama being mean to Fox, I really loved this line:
Are we to believe that Halperin, whose only discernable talent seems to be fellating a McCain Real Doll, actually knows which policies would have turned the economy around? Maybe he knows economics a lot better than politics, judging by
Yeah, I’m sure all those Dems running this year would love it if Obama ran around talking about how awesome TARP was. How stupid can one pundit be?
Corner Stone
I got this off The Sports Guy’s twitter feed. I freakin love Hakeem.
Get past the BS with Dwight Howard and just watch how fucking fast Hakeem is, still. How perfect his footwork is.
They had him listed at 6’10” but he’s really more like 6’8″ but still just mindblowing to watch someone so damn big move like a freaking smooth cat.
Hakeem
*It’s Hakeem teaching Dwight low post drills and mentality. But don’t let that stop you from watching this badass mofo work.
Keith G
@Moses2317: Go Bucks!!
And since a lot of news today is shit, here is a laugh. Brutus the Buckeye gets a pregame mugging from a bobcat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JKD65hhsho
And, ol’ Cristobal Columbus was just a tool of the big money/global traders of his day. Columbus haters get over it. He was just a replaceable cog.
DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.
@Peter:
And now these native peoples you love so dearly have become lake pirates and attack us while we boat along the border.
Barb (formerly gex)
Ah yes. Columbus day is the day when I think about all our wonderful libertarian cohorts who are pretty sure the rich and powerful European descendants got that way through hard work and not genocide. Sort of like MLK Jr. Day is the day I think about how all those people got so far through hard work and not through, you know, slavery.
Omnes Omnibus
The real meaning of Columbus Day is that I could not mail my mom’s birthday present today. Why does Columbus hate moms?
Wile E. Quixote
@DougJ:
I blame the secular leftist war on Columbus Day for this. Bill O’Reilly told me all about it.
BGinCHI
@DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.: The greatest comic bit on Columbus, discovery, and Jesus, is still George Carlin’s “A Place for My Stuff.”
Chapters include the hilarious title piece “just move over a little…. as colonization.”
As well as “Interview with Jesus” and “Asshole, Jackoff, Scumbag.”
I miss Carlin.
Cacti
In honor of Columbus Day, I’m going to walk into someone’s house, declare I’ve discovered it, and kick them out.
Moses2317
@Keith G: That’s awesome. Go Bobcats! Though, of course, things would have gone alot worse for the Buckeye if he had been attacked by a Wolverine.
Corner Stone
@Cacti: Make sure their skin pigmentation is several shades darker than your and you’ll be good.
Either that or work for BoA. That’ll do it too.
Linda Featheringill
@Comrade Luke:
I actually think that Nietzsche was a lost soul, not because of the “God is dead” drama but because of the whole superman theory.
No such animal. In the foreseeable future, anyway.
phillip anderson
Some quality teabaggin’ on Long Island:
Lee Zeldin supporters wave Confederate flags, make obscene gestures at “Women for Foley” rally
Alternate title: Hulk Hogan falls on hard times…
Nutella
@Cacti:
But I thought the banks were closed on Columbus Day.
lamh32
In today’s installment, of Karma’s a bitch aint’ it news, the Nazi-renactment candidate, is slamming Cantor by comparing him to dems…WTF!
GOPer Slams Cantor For Disowning Him Over Nazi Reenactments (VIDEO)
arguingwithsignposts
@Mark S.:
whew, I’m glad we have seasoned political operative Halperin to Set Obama Straight.
Corner Stone
Anybody remember that story a couple years ago where a bank had foreclosed on a really ritzy property, like in Hamptons or some really great place, and the bank VP was using it for free while it was in foreclosure?
That had to be 18 months or so ago, or more, and it was just straight theft. Some bank VIP had just stole some really ritzy place and was just squatting there for free. Not selling it, or collecting rent or anything. Just theft.
That was foreshadowing.
Roger Moore
@Linda Featheringill:
And smallpox, measles, etc. were even less kind than the people were. Even if the Europeans had been a bunch of saints (and, yes, I know they were far from it), their diseases would have devastated the native population. Given the lack of vaccination, there wasn’t anything the Europeans could have done about it, either.
Garrigus Carraig
@Cacti:
Fixited that for ya.
Left Coast Tom
@Corner Stone:
You mean this one, in Malibu: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/15/business/fi-malibu-wells15
gbear
Today is National Coming Out Day too.
::ahem::
Yoo-hoo everybody! Here I am!
I feel much better now.
Citizen Alan
@Linda Featheringill:
Nerdy digression: I’ve been wondering for 10 years how “Smallville” would handle Clark Kent adopting the name Superman in a world where there has never been a Superman character and thus the word “superman” is most closely associated with Nietzsche’s ubermensch and the fascist implications attached to the term by Nazism. Recently, the writers have finally broached that topic by having Lois Lane and Hawkman (of all people) have a conversation about Nietzsche in which they redefine “ubermensch” to make it more socially acceptable. Apparently we can all be ubermenschen “in our own way.”
I look forward to some future Hollywood writer extolling the virtues of Randian Objectivism for its compassionate and giving nature.
Kyle
The Knights of Columbus were the leading force behind ramrodding “under God” into the pledge of allegiance back in the McCarthyist 50s. So fuck those theocratic bullies and fuck Columbus.
Linda Featheringill
@lamh32:
Well, you know, in spite of all the crazy idiocy that comes out of Cantor’s lovely mouth, he might know a thing or two about the Wiking brigade.
Edited for clarity.
Bnut
I don’t want to reflect. Just get rid out it. It’s not a whitewashing to admit its a mistake to have the day and scratch it. Teach about Columbus in school, but don’t celebrate it with a holiday. If we care so much about the fees fees of Native Americans once a year, let’s at least name the holiday after them or something.
Linda Featheringill
@Citizen Alan:
ubermenchen:
And then we can be more uber than thou.
Zifnab
If there were people living on the Moon, I wonder if we’d all be sitting around today bashing Neil Armstrong as history’s greatest monster?
Long before Christopher Columbus arrived, the Aztecs and the Incas engaged in human trafficking, bloody conquest, and human sacrifice as a tool of religious oppression. And if you fled these terrible oppressors and headed up a bit north, to the Texas eastern coastline, you might be lucky enough to run into a number of roving cannibal tribes or just get killed on sight by the highly territorial Apache and Comanche.
The Spanish showed up in Central America and did a better job of killing natives than the natives did killing the Spanish. The elder civilizations were packed sea to shining sea with murderous slavers and greedy heartless bastards. Christopher Columbus Day is the day everyone in the New World got a thousand year technological upgrade. And the Old World got potatoes. So take that for what it’s worth.
Ash Can
@Keith G: That video cracked me up. There’s something delightful about some mope dressed like an idiot getting knocked down by someone who refuses to take all the bullshit seriously.
Corner Stone
@Left Coast Tom: Yes! Thank you! A West Coast straight steal in Malibu, not the East Coast gangsta I had confused myself about.
Bought in 2004 for $900,000 and now is listed at $21M? WTF? That has to be missing a digit.
But yes, thanks. The VIP just squatted in that sucker since May of 2009, and entertained people instead of listing it for sale or lease.
Freaking theft. What a great story that was.
Keith G
@Moses2317: No way a wolverine would have touched Brutus. Never could have made it to the end zone.
Cris
Columbus day is the day my father, a career federal employee, used to phone me at work and say “Don’t you have today off?”
He’s retired now. I sort of miss that stupid call.
PurpleGirl
Columbus Day was not one of the holidays that IBEW Local 3 got for their members. However, they did get a day that a member could take off for their birthday. My father’s birthday was October 10th and he always took it off. As I child I did not realize that’s why my father had off on Columbus Day.
Nutella
Hey, did anyone notice John’s dog in a bucket pic is in Brad DeLong’s blog?
arguingwithsignposts
@Zifnab:
I thought they got Maize – or what you call Corn.
Or what people in Michigan call the color of that team that got their asses kicked on Saturday by “little brother.”
DougJ is the business and economics editor for Balloon Juice.
@Cris:
Lazy government employees.
arguingwithsignposts
@Nutella:
Is that John’s original, or one from the cheezburger network? I honestly don’t know. Just wondering.
Tax Analyst
@Cacti:
Don’t forget to grievously harm them while you’re doing it. Otherwise you aren’t really a real Amurrican and the Tea Partyists will know fur shure.
Citizen Alan
@Zifnab:
Well, I don’t know if I’d put it that bluntly, but I see the point. Europe was a technologically advanced, aggressive society riven with fiercely competitive nation states and a desperate hunger for resources. Christopher Columbus may have been (and likely was) a horrible person, but if the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria had sunk halfway across the Atlantic, it would have delayed the conquest of the Americas by, at most, a few decades. And short of the indigenous peoples spontaneously discovering gunpowder, advanced metallurgy, and penicillin during that brief delay, I imagine things would have played out pretty much the same way.
I have too many present day preventable disasters to worry about without sweating historical inevitabilities from 500 years past.
Anne Laurie
@gbear:
__
Hiyah, Gbear!
I assume the date was chosen to give one’s family members a chance to get over the spasms of confusion, bad jokes, and reactionary acting-out before Turkey Day?
Nutella
@Corner Stone:
No, the banker’s OWN house cost $900K. The one she moved into and kept off the market even though it belonged to the bank is worth millions.
HumboldtBlue
Why the fuck would Cantor know anything about the SS formations? Really, the man may be a Jew bu that means he’s a Jew, not a fucking scholar, not a man of conscience, not a man of principle nor a man who can speak the truth.
Iott and his crew are certainly some fucked up individuals, but granting Cantor knowledge of Nazi military history because he’s missing a foreskin is like claiming Palin is an expert on energy policy because her grifting ass is from Alaska.
Tax Analyst
@Corner Stone:
Corner – I don’t know if it was the same incident, but something like that happened out here in the L.A. vicinity in one of the ritzier enclaves – which one I can’t recall right now – with a property that Wells Fargo had foreclosed on. Throwing parties, living rent free, blocking interested parties from viewing the property, etc. Finally the WF VIP ended up pissing off all the neighbors with all the constant party noise – they bitched to the L.A. Times, TV news and anyone else who had a microphone or a notepad and the bank had to finally take action against the offending bank official – shit-canned them and gave one of those “we’re really so very, very, very sorry – we had no idea this was happening” explanations.
jake the snake
@Peter:
Quoting Vonnegut is never lame.
Corner Stone
@Nutella: Sheesh, of course. Blew that one. Thanks.
Corner Stone
@Tax Analyst: I think you and Left Coast Tom are both on the same story.
And I believe it’s the one I remember. For some reason I had confused myself with something in the Hamptons, but Malibu is where it was, I think. Thanks.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
You’re misreading the article. $900K was for the Wells Fargo exec’s personal home, not for the place in Malibu. You probably got confused because there’s no obvious connection between the two, but they’re right next to each other in the story.
Barb (formerly gex)
@Zifnab: I find so little value in minimizing the bad things one person/group does by pointing out others who do bad or worse things. And I’m not sure who on the Moon is the equivalent of Native Americans.
Jay
I don’t know if any of you have seen this, but if you are looking for a counterpoint to Columbus Day, it may be a good start.
The video featured on the front page of the site has over 100,000 YouTube views, and a good thing, too, because it shows that activists-who are right, in my view-have finally found a good way to get their message out.
There’s also a petition that’s fairly persuasive, and inclusion of the fact that-as it is-Columbus Day isn’t presently celebrated by several American states may get a decent number of undecided folks to see that opposition to-or wariness about-the holiday is not an indefensible DFH position.
FormerSwingVoter
Christopher Columbus would want you to check out our new website :P
http://www.JobsNowCutsLater.com
(last time I shill for it on here, I swear)
BGinCHI
Anyone have a working link to the Simpson’s intro done by Banksy??
YouTube one is gone.
jake the snake
Didn’t you know that Columbus Day like all holidays except Christmas is a conspiracy among public employees, labor unions and public employee labor unions to get a paid day off for their union thugs.
Corner Stone
@Roger Moore: Yeah, I missed the transition in that last section.
Not sure why the VP house’s value has anything to do with the story of theft.
But in any event, I misread the info there.
Corner Stone
@jake the snake:
Isn’t this the day they go out and shake down feeble grannies and undocumented store owners?
MattR
@Corner Stone: I misread it the same way and had the same thought. I knew the bubble was crazy out there but wow. :)
And on the topic of colonialism, here is a fantastic cover of Neil Young’s Cortez the Killer at the Jammy’s a few years ago by Grace Potter, Joe Satriani, Willy Waldman, Steve Kimock, Reed Mathis and Stephen Perkins.
@Corner Stone: I assume they were trying to show how much nicer the Malibu beach house was.
fucen tarmal
@geg6:
we could celebrate with a suspension of tobacco taxes and free chances at a government run lottery in lieu of slot tokens, because business is business.
lamh32
For anyone who cares to here from a African American resident of FLA who has been a Kendrick Meek supporter from the beginning, it’s a pretty good read, and I can tell ya antecdotally, that through disscussions of my own, alot of AA would agree with him.
Progressive Hypocrisy On Kendrick Meek
New Yorker
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this, but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to call what happened to the indigenous population of the Americas a “genocide”. Columbus could have showed up offering chocolate and free massages, and 95% of the population of the hemisphere would have died out just because the Spanish breathed on them.
Were there acts of unspeakable brutality committed against the indigenous populations by the Spanish, French, British, and (eventually) Americans? Absolutely. Name me one period of history in any corner of planet where one group of people hasn’t been brutalizing another. The Aztecs were sure doing it to the weaker nations around them before Cortez showed up.
If Atahualpa had the technology to do so, I’m sure he would have raped, pillaged, and enslaved the Spanish just as the Spanish did to his people. To me, the lesson of the Columbian exchange is the same lesson as the Holocaust, the Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, and a zillion other things: we’re a fucked up species of animal.
fucen tarmal
on a positive note, it was nice to see the penguins notch a win against the hated new jersey devils…brodeur needs to retire already, just cause i say so.
JWL
“Genocide Day”?
As if the slate wasn’t cleared when the Atlanta Braves forcibly retired Chief Knockahoma.
gbear
@Anne Laurie:
I’ve only used this day to come out to someone once, and that was to one of the reasonable VP’s at an extremely redneck firm I worked at for about a year. I always think of the ‘holiday’ as more workplace oriented; it’s a day when you finally hang a picture of your S.O. in your work cubicle just like everyone else does.
I was lucky that no one spazzed out. Everyone had pretty much figured it out long before I came to terms with it.
Moses2317
@Keith G: We still have a 57-43-6 record all time against the Poisonous Nuts, so I’d be careful of the Wolverine if I was the Buckeye mascot.
Roger Moore
@arguingwithsignposts:
They got a bunch of stuff. You have big starch crops like potatoes, corn/maize, and cassava; important vegetable crops like tomato, chili peppers, common beans, and squash; nuts and nutlike foods like pecan, peanut, and cashew; fruits like pineapple, Concord grapes, and avocados, and spice and other crops like chocolate and vanilla. There are a couple of meat animals, too, most notably the turkey. It’s hard to imagine a lot of Old World cuisine without those New World foods.
goblue72
@New Yorker: Serves the Native Americans right for living in a pristine, disease-free Arcadia instead of overcrowded Medieval cities where raw sewage flowed openly in the streets.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
I think the two events are related. The info about the exec’s own home is extraneous, so it’s easy to misread that bit as pertaining to the house in Malibu. My gut feeling is that this is a sign that one or more of the reporters who worked on the story are primarily real estate reporters, who think it’s important to mention noteworthy previous owners, purchase dates, and price whenever discussing a house, even if it’s not otherwise relevant to the article.
Roger Moore
@New Yorker:
No, he couldn’t have. Chocolate is a New World food, so Columbus could only have it after visiting the Americas, not when he first got there.
New Yorker
@goblue72:
That disease-free Arcadia was a mixed blessing, since it left the indigenous population completely unable to cope with smallpox. As others have said, even without Columbus’ foolhardy adventurism, there would have eventually been contact between the two hemispheres, and even had it happened 200 years later, there still would have been a holocaust in the Americas from Old World diseases.
HE Pennypacker, Wealthy Industrialist
Lyrics for the occasion from (obscure rap masters) The Goats:
Columbus killed more Indians than Hitler killed Jews, but yet on his birthday we get sales on shoes
kommrade reproductive vigor
I say we all send a letter to the editor of our local papers. In it we suggest that we ditch Columbus Day and make National Coming Out day a national holiday instead.
It’ll never happen, but I want to see if the fReichtards can hit a note that busts glass.
Also2. Muse. Because.
russell
Not at my house.
The old world got potatoes, corn, tomatoes, chocolate, and gold.
The new world got enslaved and worked to death.
Sucked to be Taino. Doesn’t suck to be Taino anymore because there are no more of them.
Sly
National “Start of the Worst Pandemic in World History” Day?
@New Yorker:
The population figures vary depending on this historian you talk to, but I would agree that the effect that diseases like smallpox had on the indigenous peoples was catastrophic: at least double what had happened in Europe with respect to the Black Death.
I know of only one instance where biological warfare was intentional, and that was during Pontiac’s Rebellion in 1763. Even then, evidence shows that British commanders only discussed the possibility of disbursing pox-infested blankets to the French-allied Ottawa. Whether they actually carried out the plan remains uncertain, but the Ottawa did face a smallpox outbreak shortly thereafter, and the letters of the British commander (Lord Jeffrey Amherst) reveal that he viewed the Indians as vermin and worthy only of extermination.
So you’re correct in saying that we really can’t call it genocide per se. But there were instances of ethnic cleansing on a smaller scale, from Spanish America in the 16th century all the way to the Trail of Tears in the 19th century, that should not be overlooked.
MissKG
This is a joke, right? Right?
Nutella
re: Columbian exchange of diseases
The Americas scored one point against the Europeans by giving them syphilis to take back home. Probably — the timing seems right.
asiangrrlMN
@MissKG: Yes. DougJ will have his fun.
@gbear: My turn. Ahem. I am here, too! Whew. That’s a load off my mind.
Brendancalling
I took my son on a tour of the USS Olympia, Commodore Dewey’s flagship, the oldest steel ship still afloat, and the ship that took the Phillipines. Essentially the Olympua ushered in the Empire as we know it.
And, just like with our real empire, it’s decrepit, neglected, and will in fact be scrapped next month, because no one will pony up the $10 million needed to save it. Like the equally rotted SS United States a few piers down, it’s a perfect analogy for 21st century America.
Andy K
@goblue72:
It’s not as if the Native Americans made a conscious choice to live the way they did.
Someone further up-thread pointed out all of the dietary staples that the Old World got from the New World, but no single New World culture had access to all of those staples.
And the only reason that New World cultures were relatively disease free was because of the dearth of domesticable animals. Had they earlier access to cows, oxen, horses and pigs, they would have probably, somewhere along the line, developed sewage-filled, disease-ridden cities. The Aztecs were well on their way there without the critters when Cortés showed up.
goblue72
@Andy K: Some people are far too uptight to get a joke. I recommend a good blowjob.
Cris
And if there was an Atahualpa Day honoring him, we’d be right to point out the dark side of that holiday.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
Thread title?
Great movie.