It took three oatmeal stouts and an order of gutbomb wings, but I think I am no longer stressed out.
Open Thread
by John Cole| 45 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads
by John Cole| 45 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads
It took three oatmeal stouts and an order of gutbomb wings, but I think I am no longer stressed out.
Comments are closed.
stuckinred
The Cubs just beat the Padres. GO BRAVES!
lamh32
So I was reading over on MSN, that the authorities are considering trying the Rutgers suicide incident as a hate crime.
Since BJ has such an eclectic mix of commenters, I was just wondering if any legal eagles knew if their is a case fro hate crime in this?
Personally, I kinda want some greater punishment for those individuals, than just a “lohan” or “hilton” type of punishment (ya know, communtiy service, 10 days of a 90 day sentence, etc…)
John Cole
I have a hard time believing it would be any different if Clementi was in there with a girl. I bet this jackass would have broadcast that, too. I find it hard to see it as a hate crime, since there is no trail of gay bashing and he apparently got along with the guy.
Loneoak
Hate crimes by definition are supposed to target people as a group—the violence is committed against an individual in order to intimidate or threaten the whole group. It’s not enough to cause violence against a minority and say hateful things because of their minority status.
MikeJ
@lamh32: I’m certainly against Lohan type punishment. Jail for addiction? Seems pretty stupid.
gwangung
Oh, at least some jail time….and spending time with the parents of the vicim. Weekly for the next few years.
General Stuck
A hard life
kdaug
What the hell is a gutbomb wing? Or do I not want to know?
Kristine
What brand of stout?
Kristine
@General Stuck: ::Charlie hugs::
lamh32
@MikeJ:
sure it’s stupid, but I sure bet there a any number of non-white, non-rich, non-celebrity drug addicts, who failed 1 drug/alcohol test after being placed on probation (Lindsey, I believe has had 3) who are now sitting in jail serving out at least 30% of their sentence who would love to have it like LiLo. LiLo has been to court more than some hip hop artist I know! I sure they are/were sitting in jail thinking…WTH!
Lawd don’t get me started on LiLo.
IANAL
@lamh32
I’m supposed to be billing to a client at the moment so you only get like sub-five minutes of my google time (that will be $30), and I’m not going to hit-up the Westlaw for you all as I don’t have a client and matter #.
…but….
From what I can tell NJ has, or used to have (not too sure what’s happened post-Apprendi*; and the results of my google-fu are not dated) a number of statutes that allow increased penalties if the state can show that the ‘bad thing’ (harassment, violence, etc) was done with “with a purpose to intimidate an individual or group of individuals because of race, color, religion, gender, handicap, sexual orientation or ethnicity.”
http://www.partnersagainsthate.org/laws/list-of-hate-crime-laws.html?state=nj
So Loneoak is kinda wrong. The ‘bad thing’ doesn’t need to be done to intimidate a group. In NJ at least, it’s enough that it’s done because (or partially because) of the victim’s minority status.
Yes, this is punishing “intent.” And some might call that “thought-crime,” but realize that when we punish we consider intent and thought all the time. What do you think the difference is between premeditated murder and manslaughter anyway?
Oh, right… I am not a lawyer. seriously. I’m not.
* – Supreme Court case about Jersey’s hate crimes law and how it took sentencing power away from the jury and put it in the hands of the judge. Actually very interesting. Y’see in his majority opinion Stevens wrote that…. wait… where are you all going? Come back….
PaulW
Anyone going to the March for Jobs? Do me a favor and tape a sign to Lincoln’s forehead saying “Hire Me”
lamh32
@John Cole:
Here’s what MSN is reporting. I think what they are considering is New Jersey’s state level hate crime laws:
Mike E
Dude, drop the gutbombs, go for the kind bud.
ETA Go Fightin’s!
John Cole
@Kristine: Samuel Smith
seabe
I prefer the Oatmeal Porter myself, specifically Highland’s from Asheville, NC.
freelancer (itouch)
Jack’s Pumpkin Spice Ale.
Yum.
kdaug
@kdaug: OK, I get it now.
But given our proclivity for habanero, Hatch green, minced jalaps, and the occasional serrano to cool things down, could the gutbomb honorific be applied to, well, our entire diet?
It’s really just a regional nomenclature thing – never heard the term “gutbomb” before in these parts.
Kristine
@John Cole: ::envy:: I have a hard time finding oatmeal stouts, and that looks like a good one.
I’ve had Gray’s (Janesville WI), which I really liked. But as I said, hard time finding it.
LiberalTarian
Here is a story you’ll like John, one where the police are held accountable and put on trial for once. In Dallas, no less.
Rey
I have been craving hot wings for about 2 weeks now. Gutbomb sounds delish! Just found out Tony Curtis died today- what a bummer. Maybe I’ll cook wings and try to find some Tony Curtis movies for the weekend or maybe Turner classics will do a tribute…
Corner Stone
@John Cole: I will just reiterate that the Imperial Stout is mindblowingly good.
If there was one beer someone was going to make me pick, that’d be it.
It is freaking excellent in a variety of situations but if you like a good mild cigar it’s a perfect sidebar.
ETA – that is to say excluding all micro brew situations that I can not be held to account for.
MikeJ
@lamh32: I agree that it’s not good to punish regular people for addiction either, but that doesn’t make it right to punish somebody for drug abuse because they’re a celebrity.
I don’t want her to get special treatment and get off easy. I want her to get the same treatment everybody should get, and I want other similarly situated people to get that treatment too.
Sorry, I just have a hard time hating her like I’m supposed to.
Corner Stone
Because I have had a couple micro brew Porter’s that’d make me slap yo momma.
In the general sense of “momma”
LiberalTarian
So, re Clementi, we want to hold two stupid, and mean, kids to a higher level of judicial scrutiny and public vilification than we do all kinds of nasty, horrible individuals?
They are being punished. Legally and by disciplinary action by Rutgers. Moreover, they meant to make the kid a laughingstock, not kill him. It isn’t like they’ll have an easy time living this down. Kids, even 18-year-olds at Rutgers, can be dirty rotten bastards. But, they usually grow out of it (well, not if they are Karl Rove, but surely that is the exception).
Yes, they did a horrible thing. Enjoyed doing it. But they didn’t take an ax and give him 40 whacks. They were stupid. And I will bet you, with their world as they see it crumbling all around them, they know how very stupid they were. They can never, ever be sorry enough.
Let’s not be getting all highfalutin and pious and make them responsible for society’s many sins. I’ll bet a good many of you snotty bastards were plenty mean back in the day; you just won’t ever have to regret it so much.
Ella in New Mexico
For me, it took two lite beers “enhanced” with vodka, lime and orange juice, plus three pieces of homemade Pizza Margherita to get over my 13 year-old’s throwing a meatball up against the wall while in lunch detention today. And getting 4 more lunch detentions because of it. And hearing about it firsthand from the frigging Magnet School principal on the phone after a 13 hr shift in the ICU.
Ahhh, yes. Thank GOD they repealed prohibition…
suzanne
Blah. I went at got a glucose test done yesterday to check for gestational diabetes. Apparently I didn’t study enough, ’cause I failed. Now I have to go for a three-hour test, in which I drink ANOTHER bottle of that orange shit, then have them suck my blood once an hour for three hours. I am PISSED. Not to mention, if I have gestational diabetes, I don’t know what the hell I’m going to eat for the next three months. I already don’t eat red meat at all and only eat poultry or seafood like three times a week max. FUCK.
MikeJ
@Ella in New Mexico: Did everybody here make Pizza tonight? There was a Neapolitan pizza link earlier, and while mine was bastardized, impure, unEye-tie, the chicken-bacon-ranch pizza I had was tasty. As is the gin I’m having now.
Corner Stone
@Ella in New Mexico: Maybe you should send em on a circumnavigation of the globe in a teeny sailboat.
That’d teach em.
asiangrrlMN
@lamh32: I don’t think it was a hate crime per se, but I firmly believe it was homophobic in nature. I do not think it would have been the same if there was a girl in the room, and, of course, the consequence would not have been the same–except maybe public shaming for the girl.
@LiberalTarian: I have never done anything like that in my life–not even close. Now, someone pointed out that the girl may not have known what the boy did with her computer–fair enough. She may not be involved in the action itself. This was not a prank that went wrong. This was a malicious, cruel, plotted crime that deserves to be punished–and it happened twice. The kid put web cams around the room and tried to stream it twice. That’s actionable. Do I think the two kids will regret it? I certainly hope so, but many people don’t have consciences or they rationalize what they’ve done. And, I don’t want them to be held to higher standards–I just want them to get the punishment they deserve.
And, as someone pointed over at TNC’s place, by minimizing this as just a cruel action done by one student to another diminishes the effect that bullying in general has on kids.
@John Cole: I disagree. The guy stated he saw his roommate making out with a dude. The second time he said, “It’s happening again.” What I find interesting is that on all the sites I’ve visited and read about this, it’s only straight guys who have difficulty seeing that this is a form of homophobia. I should amend and say mostly because I’m not a hundred percent sure that all the nyms were male. You wrote about the O’Keefe and the reporter that it wasn’t a prank–well, this wasn’t either. And, because our society still views homosexuality as something of which to be ashamed, this kind of action would more likely be pulled on a gay student than a straight one.
New Yorker
Been working in Lexington, KY for the past 2 weeks. Being a big baseball fan, I got to a Cincinnati Reds game this week, just before the season ends.
In the first game of the three game set with the Astros (Tuesday night), the Reds clinched a playoff spot on a dramatic, bottom of the 9th game-winning home run by Jay Bruce.
In the 2nd game (Wednesday), all the regulars got a much-deserved night off, the scrubs played like scrubs, the Reds didn’t manage an extra-base hit, and lost 2-0.
In the 3rd game (tonight), the regulars got back in the lineup, hit 3 home runs, and cruised to a 9-1 win.
Guess which of the 3 I attended. FML.
jeffreyw
@Corner Stone:
Makes damn fine mustard, too.
Angry Black Lady
@asiangrrlMN: thanks for reminding me about the hamsher blackface incident! (i think it was you.) i have been so bothered by it all that it was stressing me the fuck out. so i wrote about it. and now i’m going to order a bottle of wine and drink it. and then i’m going to do the work i should have done today but didn’t do because i was ragey.
asiangrrlMN
@Angry Black Lady: It wasn’t me, but you’re welcome, anyway. And, you kinda have to get all ragey. It’s in your user name! I should change mine to Permanently Pissed-off Pacific Islander.
asiangrrlMN
@Angry Black Lady: Holy shit. I just read your latest entry. Pure fucking gold. I’m going to put you on my blogroll if you don’t mind. I like the way you write.
General Stuck
Remember this right wing nutbag
Chuck Butcher
I left stress behind today with a 150 mile ride through plains and mountains on my Harley with a buddy on his Suzuki. Left it way behind.
LiberalTarian
@asiangrrlMN: I never did anything this mean and hateful either. But, people did it to me. Now, I didn’t go out and kill myself over it, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t think about it. And believe me, at the time someone did a really hateful and mean thing to me (that changed my life forever) I really did think it was going to kill me. But it didn’t. And I lived long enough for them to tell me they were sorry, and I lived long enough to know they didn’t mean it to go that way.
Tyler Clementi had lots of other avenues besides suicide. He didn’t choose them. He should have gone to a counselor, his parents, his friends. He should have confronted his tormentors. Do I grieve for him any less? No.
You are using your adult wisdom and applying it to children. “But they are 18!” Bullshit. They are children. Children are going to continue to do mean things.
And, as you so casually tossed aside, they are paying for their transgressions. Homophobia by itself is like any other ism … are you telling me you don’t have a visceral dislike and intolerance for the religious right? I won’t be so sanctimonious … I hate the bastards. Neither of these kids are more than second generation US, see the names, and other cultures are less tolerant of homosexuality than we are. There is a good chance they are reflecting the values of their parents. Homophobia is ugly and unenlightened, but it isn’t illegal.
Does that make what they did OK? “He did it twice!” Yeah, he got less stupid after the first time. Of course not. Don’t be pedantic. Does that mean they should be branded with hate crimes? What do you think made the video salacious? It isn’t as if no one would have watched if it was a girl, it was juicy because it was two guys. And if these kids had been 25, they would have probably thought even the idea was stupid.
Yeah, get all pious and say how you were never mean to nobody no how. That’s bunk. You didn’t do something like this. Good for you. Would that we were all so pure. Neither did I, so what.
What I actually said is that these kids *are* being punished. Trying to make them out to be Bonnie and Clyde is over the top. You are going to hate these wet-behind-the-ears clod heads with a righteous vengeance. Good for you. I don’t figure I’ve got the piety required for such outrage, because I while didn’t make that mistake, I’ve made plenty of others.
I tell you what. Do a thought experiment. You are Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei, 18, freshmen at Rutgers. Your mean-spirited prank has gotten you national and international recognition as the device that caused young Tyler Clementi to commit suicide. You are reviled by your college, vilified in the press, and your heads are being sought on pikes for what you did. And you thought you were just being clever, too cool, and yeah, and you thought Tyler was a wuss and he was gay, but he’d get over it.
Yeah, not so much. Your life as you know it is pretty much over. His suicide has made headlines all over the world, and you are the one who made him do it. There’s a good chance you’ll get expelled, and you are facing criminal charges. Everyone has heard of you, from now on you’ll be the douche bag that drove that kid to suicide. The only way you’ll ever escape is if you change you name and never mention your past. If that isn’t punishment enough, what will work for you, you who were never *mean* to anybody?
Steeplejack
@Chuck Butcher:
Good on you, Chuck. Fall weather always makes me itchy to get out on the road.
asiangrrlMN
@LiberalTarian: I said it wasn’t a hate crime and that I wasn’t holding them to a higher statement. What I said is that it wasn’t just a prank. It was mean and cruel and vicious. You say they will regret it for the rest of their life. You are putting yourself in their shoes. I got picked on incessantly as a kid, too. It’s because this shit is considered just a prank or just a thoughtless thing that kids do to each other that it’s tolerated and allowed to go this far.
These two kids’ lives are not ruined by far. They probably won’t do any jail time (which I think they should because they were illegally taping this kid). They were harassing this kid, and he end up killing himself in part because of it. I am furious because we have a society in which this is acceptable–this kind of behavior. Had Clementi not killed himself, this would have been brushed off as exactly what you think it is–a prank gone wrong. Even now, there are people defending the kids and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and whatnot, more so, it seems than the kid who killed himself.
How in the hell would these kids think that something like this was a harmless act? You know what? I am the daughter of immigrants, too. This kind of cruelty was never taught in my culture. It’s not a prank. It’s a cruel and malicious act. A prank would have been to write on Clementi’s forehead as he slept. Or even to talk to your friends about how your gay roommate is bonking a guy and snigger about it. Tapping it and streaming it on the internet goes well beyond a prank. Is that being judgmental? You bet your ass. I have no problems with saying these kids should have to pay for this legally. I hope they regret it and feel remorse and do something productive with their lives. I don’t want them to suffer for the rest of their lives. However, right now, I am furious at what they did (at least what he did). You can call it moral piety or whatnot if you want. I don’t give a shit. Them being 18 doesn’t excuse them from responsibility.
ETA: One more thing. I have been plenty mean to people. I have never been this kind of cruel to someone. There is a difference.
Update eleven-billionty: You say I’m using an adult perspective. I’m not. I would have been even more mortified when I was a teenager.
Angry Black Lady
@asiangrrlMN: mind! i’m flattered and pleased and a little drunk, to be frank.
Chuck Butcher
@Steeplejack:
This fall weather included the needed wear of chaps and t-shirt and vest, including some 5500′ areas. Nicely warm and sunny.
Angry Black Lady
@John Cole: I respectfully disagree. If a video of him and a girl was streamed to YouTube, he would have been high fived for the rest of his days. (Unless the girl was fat or ugly or whatever is unattractive to frat boys… but even then, it would have been embarrassment only.) Streaming a video of him making out with a guy? That’s another story entirely. Just because they never gay bashed the dude, doesn’t mean the “prank” wasn’t designed to prey on the homophobia of others; everyone would call him a fag for four years.
Having been teased incessantly to the point of tears when I was in elementary school over shit as dumb as the size of my forehead, or why I talked “so white,” it took me a long time to figure out who I was (especially being adopted with a jewwy white mom and black catholic dad.) I went crying to my parents almost every day. I didn’t know what the hell was going on. And my issues weren’t anything as taboo as sexuality.
I can’t imagine how mortified this kid must have felt. Especially if that kid was still struggling with his identity. It’s fucked up and those kids shouldn’t be able to get off with “J/K.”
also, i haven’t exactly read all the comments and i’m drinking boddingtons, so that’s what’s up!
pardon my ignorance. and lack of proofreading.
Billy K
Very similar here.