Open Thread

I slept from about 8 o’clock last night until 8:30 this morning. I’m shocked the dogs let me get away with that. Feeling a little better, but I know how this goes… you feel better when you wake up, and by noon you are ready to shoot yourself.

Also, I see that Obama made some benign remarks at a fundraiser trying to bring the party together by playing down our differences, and that has enraged the professional left and we, of course, should be grievously offended and thus vote for teabaggers. Or something. I will never understand Democrats. Ever. If the Democratic party was a football team, they wouldn’t need to schedule any games with other teams. They could just have their offense and defense attack each other all day.

I’m off to drink robitussin.

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314 replies
  1. 1
    schrodinger's cat says:

    Get well soon and I hope Tunch is taking good care of you.

  2. 2
    Corner Stone says:

    Obama held a $30K per plate fund raiser at the Greenwich, CT home of “Rich Richman”?

  3. 3
    JPL(formerly demo woman) says:

    I wandered over to FDL and discovered that they are mad because of this statement

    OBAMA: Democrats, just congenitally, tend to get — to see the glass as half empty. (Laughter.) If we get an historic health care bill passed — oh, well, the public option wasn’t there. If you get the financial reform bill passed — then, well, I don’t know about this particularly derivatives rule, I’m not sure that I’m satisfied with that. And gosh, we haven’t yet brought about world peace and — (laughter.) I thought that was going to happen quicker. (Laughter.) You know who you are. (Laughter.) We have had the most productive, progressive legislative session in at least a generation.

    Do you think that FDLer’s are disappointed X-Mas morning? Also, too!

  4. 4
    BTD says:

    I’m meh on Obama’s remarks personally. But it was an unforced error. No need to say it. Lack of discipline imo.

    That said, the tax debate is the key now.

  5. 5
    Montysano says:

    Saw the Carolina Chocolate Drops last night, and it immediately went into the top 10-15 shows I’ve ever seen. If you ever get the chance to see them, don’t miss it!

  6. 6
    Montysano says:

    @ Jane Hamsher: That word “mock”? It does not mean what you seem to think it means.

  7. 7
    TJ says:

    Well, you stick your foot in your mouth trying to impress Richie Richman and that’s what happens.

  8. 8
    ornery curmudgeon says:

    Cole: The f’ing Professional Left dfh asswipes sux screw them

    Cole (2 sentences later) I will never understand the Dems, why are they always fighting themselves?

    Dude, you ARE the ‘professional’ Left …

  9. 9
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @BTD: If people are looking for an excuse to take offense, they will find it. There is a point where one must simply accept that those people exist and will be offended. Obama’s comment seemed pretty innocuous to me; as a matter of fact, I don’t know that it hurts for him to acknowledge that the perpetually offended exist.

  10. 10
    valdivia says:

    nothing worse than people who can’t stand to be portrayed the way they actually are and also totally lack a sense of humour and the sardonic. People really are offended? really?
    Let’s see these folks laugh all the way to a republican congress. See how they like that.

  11. 11
    sparky says:

    more or less what BTD said: no reason to say it that way. it’s gratuitous, and coming from someone who choses words carefully, it has some intent behind it. or it’s just shilling for the “mainstream”, in which case, i can say “fuck him with a rusty pitchfork” and “not mean it”, whatever that means since i am just shilling for something or other.

  12. 12
    cat48 says:

    Take care of yourself John…..feel better!

    Did they bother to read the entire speech? The paragraph was deliberately taken out of order by Hamsher & Greenwald for their readers. Obama was asking for some fucking help w/the election in my estimation. Of course, you have to read the entire fucking speech at Whitehouse.gov to get that feeling.

    It is profitable to their PACs to Hamsher & Greenwald & Cenk & HuffHo to keep their fans depressed & bitter because they still have butt hurt about the public option; civil liberties, etc. They deliberately take things out of Obama’s speeches; blog about Obama’s sins & then the media picks just that part up and the butt hurt continues. Cenk & friends spends the entire time their on MSNBC or CNN to bash Obama and Cenk is on there almost daily.

    These people are absolutely not allowed to whine about anything after the election as their readers & loyal followers are voting for the GREEN party or LIBERTARIAN. So be it……. Just shut the fuck up after Nov 3. No sympathy from me.

  13. 13
    quaint irene says:

    Cole, I think you need more chicken soup. Or maybe bacon therapy. Works for my dogs.

  14. 14
    schrodinger's cat says:

    I’m off to drink robitussin.

    Try some ginger tea, Stash makes a good one, that always helps to clear my sinuses.

  15. 15
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @sparky: Obama was speaking at a fundraiser. He needs to present an image of confidence. I saw the remarks as saying, “We have accomplished a metric shit-ton over the past two years. I know there is talk about an enthusiasm gap because some on the left of the party are disappointed that we have not achieved everything. But, hey, that is the nature of the beast. Democrats want things to be better for everyone, but fixing things takes time. Some people will always feel that it is taking too much time. What can I do?”

  16. 16
    cat48 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Also, too the way I read it he could have been speaking to people in that room………………..”You know who you are” (laughter)…………

    Of course, to be fair, I’ve been doing OFA off & on so I know he was not talking about me!

  17. 17
    JGabriel says:

    John Cole:

    I will never understand Democrats.

    Hey. You resemble that remark.

  18. 18
    Kay says:

    Democrats, just congenitally, tend to get — to see the glass as half empty.

    You’d only be offended by that if you see Obama as somehow not a Democrat, and, you know, he is.

    Anyone who has spent any time at all with Democrats has heard this a thousand times. It’s one of the 5,000 variations of “herding cats”.

    They laughed because 1. they’re Democrats, and 2. they’re among friendlies and, 3. they know it’s true.

    Taking personal offense at something I’ve heard for the last 20 years is just silly. It isn’t “about” Jane Hamsher, and if she hasn’t heard the same sentiment from random Democrats thousands of times, she hasn’t been listening.

  19. 19
    AhabTRuler says:

    Really now, what else could he have said, in this, the best of all possible worlds?

  20. 20
    Corner Stone says:

    Is there any way to get the FYWP to censor out the phrase “fee fees” and “butt hurt” like it does for the pen!s pill medication?

  21. 21
    cat48 says:

    @Kay:

    It’s part of my personal identity probably…..I also2 have heard it for yrs.

  22. 22
    Brachiator says:

    I’m meh on Obama’s remarks personally. But it was an unforced error. No need to say it. Lack of discipline imo.

    Bullpuckey. Obama’s remarks were measured and on target. Some Democrats’ need to have their asses kissed absolutely blinds them to political reality.

  23. 23
    Kay says:

    @cat48:

    Did you feel it was directed at you personally?

    Like a…reprimand?

    I mean, Jesus. It’s a stock laugh line. People laugh because it’s true.

  24. 24
    middlewest says:

    I wonder, since two random guys were able to make tomorrow Talk-Like-a-Pirate Day, just for the fun of it, maybe Democrats could make a holiday for ourselves.
    One day of the year when everyone chooses not to have their feelings hurt, or get insulted, or just plain give a fuck about anyone trying to offend you. Just one day to see what it’s like. Call it “Butthurt Amnesty Day” or something.

  25. 25
    sparky says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: i’d agree with you if that’s what he said, as you provided a good, non-vicious paraphrase. the problem is that’s apparently not what he said.

    what exactly is the point of pooh-poohing legislative failures and then following with this:

    And gosh, we haven’t yet brought about world peace and — (laughter.) I thought that was going to happen quicker. (Laughter.)

    it seems to me that it’s a stretch to NOT read that as a swipe at everyone who doesn’t agree with what the administration did, or if you like, that everyone who disagrees with Obama is living in la-la land.

    if, as you say, it’s to rally people, why on earth do so by taking a swipe at the people who you want to be your supporters, especially when there is absolutely no need to do so and it’s fairly certain that the remarks will be reported, unless, for example, the reason is to piss off liberals, so to speak.

    nb: for everyone who wants to tell me i am wrong, my not responding is due to my laptop battery giving out. just sayin ;)

  26. 26
    wasabi gasp says:

    This kind of candor would jazz up those $5 per email fundraisers as well.

  27. 27
    NobodySpecial says:

    My problem with it is the same as the only point Hamsher made that’s worth noting: Obama was strongly for the public option before he was elected and very vocal about it.

    Now, he treats it like it was an afterthought, and people who are disappointed about it as professional downers.

    He’d have been better off if he’d have said he was disappointed he didn’t get it, rather than treating it as a non-issue. To put it the way he did just wasn’t the smart way to do it.

  28. 28
    cat48 says:

    @Kay:

    I really never take anything he says at fundraisers personally because NOTHING he does so far is closed to the press. I never feel like he’s mocking me personally and only me. If he viciously talks abt anyone…….it’s in private.

    Reprimand is a strong action word……It was more of a Reminder or Nudge to me.

    Unfortunately, I think we are losing in Ohio right now. I’m glad you are doing as much as possible. Thank you, Kay. I appreciate you.

  29. 29
    kay says:

    @cat48:

    Unfortunately, I think we are losing in Ohio right now. I’m glad you are doing as much as possible.

    I think we lose the Senate race, but I thought Fisher was a horrible candidate, so I expected that. I don’t even have campaign swag from him, and I have campaign stuff from random judicial candidates. It’s like he’s trying to lose, to keep his nearly unbroken losing record intact. I don’t want to force him to go to the Senate, since he seems to prefer sitting at home, just meditating, so we’re not doing anything for him.
    I am ridiculously optimistic on Strickland, however, just because he works his ass off and seems to personally loathe his opponent :)
    He’s deceptively “nice”. I think he’s probably an extremely tough individual, or that’s the sense I get. I think it’s dangerous to write people like that off.
    So, vote, and let the rest take care of itself.

  30. 30
    roshan says:

    Fermat’s Last Theorem
    (video, 45 minutes)

    Andrew Wiles, a quiet English mathematician, was drawn into maths by Fermat’s puzzle, but at Cambridge in the ’70s, FLT was considered a joke, so he set it aside. Then, in 1986, an extraordinary idea linked this irritating problem with one of the most profound ideas of modern mathematics: the Taniyama-Shimura Conjecture, named after a young Japanese mathematician who tragically committed suicide. The link meant that if Taniyama was true then so must be FLT. When he heard, Wiles went after his childhood dream again. “I knew that the course of my life was changing.” For seven years, he worked in his attic study at Princeton, telling no one but his family. “My wife has only known me while I was working on Fermat”, says Andrew. In June 1993 he reached his goal. At a three-day lecture at Cambridge, he outlined a proof of Taniyama – and with it Fermat’s Last Theorem. Wiles’ retiring life-style was shattered. Mathematics hit the front pages of the world’s press. Then disaster struck. His colleague, Dr Nick Katz, made a tiny request for clarification. It turned into a gaping hole in the proof. As Andrew struggled to repair the damage, pressure mounted for him to release the manuscript – to give up his dream. So Andrew Wiles retired back to his attic. He shut out everything, but Fermat. A year later, at the point of defeat, he had a revelation. “It was the most important moment in my working life. Nothing I ever do again will be the same.” The very flaw was the key to a strategy he had abandoned years before. In an instant Fermat was proved; a life’s ambition achieved; the greatest puzzle of maths was no more.

  31. 31
    mcd410x says:

    What we need is a center party for you, where there are hugs and puppies every day, where everyone is always on the bandwagon, where there’s no criticism of Dear Leader, and Ben Nelson and Karl Rove are always right.

  32. 32
    tomvox1 says:

    Also, I see that Obama made some benign remarks at a fundraiser trying to bring the party together by playing down our differences, and that has enraged the professional left resentment stokers and we, of course, should be grievously offended and thus vote for teabaggers.

    Fixed.

  33. 33
    PurpleGirl says:

    I have one question for the people who attended that dinner: Why are you giving the Democratic Party or Obama that $30,000 instead of using it to hire someone and lower the number of unemployed people?

  34. 34
    jayjaybear says:

    “I am not a member of any organized political party – I’m a Democrat.” (Will Rogers, pre1935)

    This is not a new thing.

  35. 35
    Elisabeth says:

    @mcd410x:

    Oh, for fuck’s sake; John has been quite vocal in his criticism of the president when appropriate.

    The problem the president was talking about is that for some people nothing is big enough or done fast enough.

    Elizabeth Warren is the latest iteration. When word “leaked” that the president was naming her special advisor people were pissed that she wasn’t named intermin director. That was before anyone knew what the duties would be, who she would report to, and whether she even wanted the job in the first place. Turns out she didn’t want the permanent job, that she’s quite excited to start right away instead of waiting forever for confirmation, and that titles don’t matter. Special advisor also doesn’t limit her to the duties of interim director but allows her to be involved in other economic decisions.

    But still people are saying she’s just putting a happy face on the crappy job the president grudgingly gave her. Some people are just never happy.

  36. 36
    BTD says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Meh. Why give them an easy excuse? As I said, no bog deal, the tax debate is the thing now. Still, an unforced error.

  37. 37
    BTD says:

    @Elisabeth:

    The President has no need to talk about that now. This is a one day who cares in the end, given the tax debate, but an unforced error.

  38. 38
    . says:

    @cat48: Yes, we’re “butt hurt” over “civil liberties, etc.” I love that. What a perfect illustration of the utter lack of anything like core convictions from the “Mo-betta Democrats” crowd. “Civil liberties etc.” Clearly a trivial issue that could only be of interest to purists. After all, as long as it’s a member of our side violating them, it doesn’t count. IOKIYAD!

    Go fuck yourself raw. Scumbags like you who only care for winning elections and seeing a “D” after a politician’s name are a thousand times more of a problem than someone like Greenwald could ever be.

    And since you’re too stupid to notice, what Greenwald is is consistent. He holds members of his own party to the same standards that he criticizes the other side for lacking. I don’t expect an empty partisan whore like you to grasp that esoteric concept, but there it is.

  39. 39
    tomvox1 says:

    Hate to say it, John, but your buddy Glenn Greenwald is engaged in the same sort of demotivational pettiness as crazy pants Hamsher:

    http://www.salon.com/news/opin.....index.html

    But I guess pointing out how Glenn (as well as Jane) may not have the Democrats best interests at heart makes me an Obot…

  40. 40
    FlipYrWhig says:

    I like that the reaction to a bit about how some people in the Democratic party always complain and are always disappointed is… complaining and being disappointed. That’s why it’s a joke, people.

  41. 41
    BTD says:

    @Kay:

    So it was smart of the President to deliver those lines? there was an upside to this? Really? Come on, can’t people just admit that the President should have avoided saying that right now?

    Who cares in the end, but why say it? How does it help?

  42. 42
    BTD says:

    @Kay:

    Again, what’s the point of saying it?

  43. 43
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @BTD: It’s funny? It pokes fun at Democratic diversity of opinion as a way of suggesting that quite a lot HAS been accomplished regardless of various internal criticisms about the particulars?

  44. 44
    BTD says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Really? Then someone needs some new political advisors. The President does not need to speak to that. Nothing positive came from those lines.

    Discipline was lacking imo.

  45. 45
    kay says:

    @Elisabeth:

    The problem the president was talking about is that for some people nothing is big enough or done fast enough.

    I love that all these purported policy wonks and serious internet people spend a good part of every day looking for “gaffes” and “unforced errors”, just like Halperin, while bemoaning the sorry state of our political debate.

    There’s a plug at the end of the critique for an appearance on cable, so I’m sure we’ll parse this joke, word for word, and determine its “real meaning” for the midterms.

  46. 46
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @BTD: Do you even understand the concept of a “joke”?

  47. 47
    BTD says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    How’d that work out exactly? In theory, it COULD be all you say. In the real world, it was not helpful. A lack of discipline.

    One of the GREAT things the President has done the past 2 weeks is be extremely disciplined on his tax message. Here, he lacked discipline.

    There is no comparison in the scheme of things, the tax debate is frankly, all there is now till the election (along with scaring voters with the Tea Party.) So who cares really. But no good came from this.

  48. 48
    BTD says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Do you have any concept of message discipline? Do you have any concept that sometimes the President and his surrogates should not make certain jokes?

    Is that concept really that hard?

    As I say, in the scheme of things, this will not matter. But the idea that it was smart of the President to say these things boggles the mind.

    Are the people overreacting being ridiculous? Of course. But that is part of the electorate you need to get out to vote. Why piss them off when you do not have to?

  49. 49
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @sparky:

    if, as you say, it’s to rally people, why on earth do so by taking a swipe at the people who you want to be your supporters

    It’s not making fun of _what they want_. It’s making fun–gently!–of their _impatience_. And one of his big things is that it takes a long time and a lot of hard work to get to where you want to be.

    The fact that we’re even discussing this is unbelievably absurd, and really does say a lot about the “professional left.”

  50. 50
    Glenndacious Greenwaldian (formerly tim) says:

    Get well soon, John.

    I guess I’ll never understand why you would want to be involved with ANY party in which everyone falls in lockstep behind their Dear Leader no matter what he says or does.

    Didn’t you supposedly have that experience as a Republican, and wasn’t that tendency part of the problem?

    I think you may have an innate authoritarian-friendly character trait which craves that Big Daddy political leader to boss you around and keep you in line, and whom you would never dare speak out against. But again, you had that with your leather daddy Dick Cheney and you supposedly got fed up…and yet, here you are at BJ constantly harping on how Democrats don’t act sufficiently subservient to their so-called leaders.

    This all doesn’t really wash…

  51. 51
    SIA says:

    I was able to watch the Mama Grizzlies! video all the way through. After two paragraphs of Hamscher, I’m done. One expects the she-bears to be bitter and self serving.

  52. 52
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Yep, this. I think it’s also a way of the president to remind the all-around gripers that in the end, we are the fucking Democratic Party, people. That means we should try to have a semblance of unity. A semblance. I have no problem with the president saying this. I am tired of the ‘can’t do any right’ crowd. If they want to dish out the criticism, then they must take it, too.

  53. 53
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @BTD: Glenn Greenwald is ridiculous. Jane Hamsher is ridiculous. That’s why it’s a funny joke to normal people. This is living up to every stereotype about humorlessness. The way anyone can turn a crack about how “Y’all know what we’re like” into “I hate liberals”… and the way you think that because this pack of haters who gotta hate is prone to these kinds of behaviors means no one should ever enjoy poking fun at that behavior… I mean, I’m just blown away.

  54. 54
    liberal says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    It pokes fun at Democratic diversity of opinion …

    LOL. Sure. When has he mocked stupid “centrist” planks?

  55. 55
    Nick says:

    because they’re so allergic to the right thing happening, they’ve been desperate to be sold out all week. So now they found some random remark (that happens to be 100% true btw) at a fundraiser.

    They will always be looking to be sold out, Obama is wrong trying to make them happy, because they won’t be happy…ever. They’ll either vote…or they won’t…and nothing he does will change that.

  56. 56
    Nick says:

    @sparky:

    if, as you say, it’s to rally people, why on earth do so by taking a swipe at the people who you want to be your supporters,

    because the people he was mocking couldn’t be rallied to take a piss after drinking a gallon of water.

    They’ll either vote, or they won’t.

  57. 57
  58. 58
    liberal says:

    @Nick:

    They’ll either vote, or they won’t.

    It’s not binary.

    For example, I might give money to relatively liberal Dems in 2010, will vote straight Dem in 2010, and I’ll certainly vote for Obama in 2012, but I’m not going to give him money like I did in 2008.

  59. 59
    Corner Stone says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    The fact that we’re even discussing this is unbelievably absurd, and really does say a lot about the “professional left.”

    That’s a good point. Why do you think Cole, and others, keep doing this here?

  60. 60
    Corner Stone says:

    @liberal: The supposed “centrists” here with FlipYrWhig being a prime example, do not have any actual planks, ideals or positions that are not infinitely malleable.
    So to mock them is to mock the wind.

  61. 61
    Corner Stone says:

    Glenn Greenwald is ridiculous. Jane Hamsher is ridiculous.

    No one knows who these people are. One Op-Ed by a fucking neocon asshole at the WaPo gets 10 times the eyeballs a month’s worth (or more) of all the pontificating they do, combined.
    So who is being teased?

  62. 62
    Brachiator says:

    @BTD

    So it was smart of the President to deliver those lines? there was an upside to this? Really? Come on, can’t people just admit that the President should have avoided saying that right now?
    Who cares in the end, but why say it? How does it help?

    Clearly this is a big deal to you. Really big. And apparently the new rule for some is that other liberals, especially Greenwald the Good, can criticize the president, but Obama can never, never, ever respond in any way that might possibly upset a pearl clutching Democrat. Instead, he must be an innocuous Cheerleader-in-Chief, or be mildly apologetic for not having Air Force One deliver that unicorn.

    But unlike you, I don’t see an unforced error or anything that the president should have avoided. If anything, he was too mild.

    And how does it help? Obama rightly focused on what was actually accomplished, which should lead people to look forward to what needs to be done next to improve and build upon what has been done.

    On the other hand, people who want to navel gaze or get stuck on perceived slights, or on endless ruminations on what could have been or what should have been are not helping anything.

  63. 63
    liberal says:

    @valdivia:

    nothing worse than people who can’t stand to be portrayed the way they actually are and also totally lack a sense of humour and the sardonic.

    OK, so if fair’s fair, he’ll portray various centrist and blue dog idiocies in a gently mocking manner, and no one will be pissed about it?

    Or how about gently mocking our idiotic secular religion, namely 9-11 worship and troop worship?

    People really are offended? really?
    Let’s see these folks laugh all the way to a republican congress. See how they like that.

    If you’re only selling point is “I’m not a Republican,” you might have trouble at the polls.

  64. 64
    Bogolov says:

    “I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.”
    Will Rogers

    A political joke made over 70 years ago that still works!

  65. 65
    liberal says:

    @Corner Stone:
    Reminds me of an exchange I think you and some other commenter had a week or two ago here at BJ. Maybe El Cid? Something about commenters here thinking more about what should be done from the viewpoint of a political (as in: electoral politics) adviser than what should be done from a policy/voter viewpoint.

    As for “centrist” commenters here, they’re various admixtures of centrism and O-botism.

  66. 66
    Amanda in the South Bay says:

    Hehe, the first thing that came to mind when I read you were going to drink Robitussin was “he’s gonna have a psychedelic Saturday!”

  67. 67
    liberal says:

    @Brachiator:

    And apparently the new rule for some is that other liberals, especially Greenwald the Good, can criticize the president, but Obama can never, never, ever respond in any way that might possibly upset a pearl clutching Democrat.

    Yawn. Get back to us when he gently mocks some of the idiotic positions held by centrist Democrats, like “it’s reasonable not get the hell out of Afghanistan at the soonest possible moment” or “TARP is being paid back, so the taxpayer/citizen got a good deal, because the relative invisibility of other ways we’ve been dumping money on the banks means they don’t actually exist.”

  68. 68
    Citizen_X says:

    I hate to interrupt the infighting and treat this like an open thread and all, just because it says so at the top, but what you really want to do is stop and watch a Taiwanese computer-animation explanation of the Tea Party movement, complete with Palin shooting at the sky, actual chicken choking, and (for those of you who enjoy that sort of thing) Obama fleeing from an oncoming train.

  69. 69
    liberal says:

    @Brachiator:

    Obama rightly focused on what was actually accomplished…

    The key difference being you think a lot was accomplished, whereas I think that even given political realities, not so much was accomplished.

  70. 70
    liberal says:

    @Citizen_X:
    There was some news on TV this morning about Palin making some movement that suggests a 2012 run. My wife, dismayed, said that if Palin wins we’re moving (I assume to Canada).

    Was reminded of DougJ’s (?) claim that she’s just a grifter.

  71. 71
    eemom says:

    Last night I saw the post by Hamsher about Obama having “mocked” — i.e., obscened, blasphemed, desecrated, spurned, spat upon, shit upon, and otherwise rendered disrespect unto — the Sacrament of the Public Option, at some event in Connecticut, but I had no idea what she was referring to.

    This morning, I find out it was a nested clause in a bit of Democrat-deprecating humor.

    I just wish that one of these days, one of that endless parade of sharks Jane keeps jumping would jump up itself and swallow her ass……thereby restoring at least ONE babbling vortex of idiocy to peaceful ocean waters.

  72. 72
    eemom says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Maybe this would be a good time for you to tell us what YOUR non-malleable “actual planks, ideals or positions” are.

    OTHER than, you know, being an always-on-call, all-purpose, 24/7 spewer of gratuitous assholery.

  73. 73
    John S. says:

    Oh the poutrage!

    Sometimes a Democrat has to look at their alleged “base”, and quote Scarface from Half Baked:

    Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you’re cool, fuck you. I’m out!

    Some of you “true progressives” just won’t be happy until you’re on the outside looking in again. Somehow, watching the country slide even further into ruin – as long as you can blame Republicans for it – is more gratifying. Fuck you assholes.

    See example: Commenter liberal, who seems to believe that bellyaching in the minority is the path to success.

  74. 74
    Corner Stone says:

    @eemom: Well, I’ve never been for murdering people delivering aid and assistance to people in desperate need of help.
    I’m pretty strongly against that, even though we all know you disagree.

  75. 75
    NobodySpecial says:

    @eemom: Turn that mirror on thyself?

  76. 76
    Corner Stone says:

    @eemom: So you pretty much surf the web with one hand on your mouse and one hand inside your frumpy, dirty sweat pants.
    Ugh.

  77. 77
    SIA says:

    @Citizen_X: Made my day, Citizen!

  78. 78
    Corner Stone says:

    I’m still waiting for someone to tell me who President Obama was teasing in his remarks.
    GG and the Lady Hamsher are irrelevant to everyone but the mentally obsessed here.
    Who was he talking about?

  79. 79
    Corner Stone says:

    “Ohhh Jane. Jane, you dirty bitch! I wish you would die, you little skank. Oh, you skank! Like that do you? Oh yeah! You like it alright! I know you like it! Jane! Jaaaannnnneeee!!”

  80. 80
    slag says:

    I actually have to disagree with this. One thing I generally like about Obama is that he’s usually willing to admit mistakes. He’s willing to do the whole “I feel your pain” exercise when people disagree with him. It would have been smart of him to go through that exercise in this instance. To preface his remarks with, “I understand we’ve made some mistakes and some compromises, but…”.

    That’s what you do when you’re actually trying to talk people off the ledge rather than trying to push them over. Start by acknowledging their feelings and where they are at the moment, and go from there.

    And maybe he did that (I don’t really care enough about this issue to go find the whole thing), but from what I’ve read on Greenwald’s site, that understanding part was missing. And as a result, it made Obama look callous and out of touch.

    That said, I honestly don’t give a shit about this. He’s not up for reelection, and the people who are must be reelected. Liberalism will not be helped in any way if we let the teahadists win. That’s all I need to know. That’s all any of us should need to know.

  81. 81
    BTD says:

    @John S.:

    Why does a Democrat have to do that exactly? How does it help?

  82. 82
    Nick says:

    @liberal:

    For example, I might give money to relatively liberal Dems in 2010, will vote straight Dem in 2010, and I’ll certainly vote for Obama in 2012, but I’m not going to give him money like I did in 2008.

    All that matters is voting. He raised over $100 million in 2008, I’d be shocked if a tenth of that was from the poutrage left.

  83. 83
    BTD says:

    @Brachiator:

    Sheesh. Writing a few comments in a Balloon Juice thread is not a big deal to me. Apparently, you think it is.

  84. 84
    John S. says:

    Liberalism will not be helped in any way if we let the teahadists win.

    It would be nice if more people remembered this, but for the True Progressives, the perfect is the enemy of the good. They would rather have horrible policies or the status quo than failed attempts and half measures.

    Which makes perfect sense when the objective is to whine and complain.

  85. 85
    BTD says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    “Normal people” are inspired by this? Really?

  86. 86
    tomvox1 says:

    BTW unlike here, over at FDL, if you disagree with Dear Leader Hamsher and her tribe of the perpetually butt sore/offended/disappointed, your comment doesn’t often make it out of moderation. Greenwald, on the other hand, will generally let you say whatever you like. Just an observation.

  87. 87
    Jules says:

    hahahahahahaha

    Thin skinned Democats whining about a joke about them being thin skinned whiners is pretty damn funny.

  88. 88
    Corner Stone says:

    @John S.:

    They would rather have horrible policies or the status quo than failed attempts and half measures.

    Are you doing satire now? “True Progressives”?
    I think you have failed conclusion syndrome.

  89. 89
    Keith G says:

    @liberal:

    Help me make sense of your point

    Get back to us when he gently mocks some of the idiotic positions held by centrist Democrats….

    Why is this important? It’s like two years ago when idiots were obsessing over a fist bump. This seems rather silly.

  90. 90
    John S. says:

    @BTD:

    Because sometimes you have to acknowledge that the people who allegedly work “with” you really don’t. They don’t like you, they treat you like an asshole, nothing you do is good enough for them and despite wearing the same uniform, they are not on your team.

    Have you seen the movie? If you had, I thing the analogy is perfectly self-explanatory.

  91. 91
    eemom says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Well, I’ve never been for murdering people delivering aid and assistance to people in desperate need of help.

    That’s commendable, of course, but it doesn’t answer my question.

    What ARE you “for”?

    What are your “non-malleable”

    1. Actual planks,

    2. Ideals, and

    3. Positions?

    Surely you can do us the simple courtesy of answering that.

  92. 92
    Nick says:

    @BTD:

    Why does a Democrat have to do that exactly? How does it help?

    Because after a while, when you’re trying to please people who are never pleased by anything, you need to vent frustration. It’s not supposed to help. When Obama started coming out fighting for tax cuts, someone commented on OpenLeft “We should be celebrating this” followed by a barrage of comments saying “No, he should be doing this anyway” “He’ll cave in the end” and “i can’t get excited because he hasn’t prosecuted Bush” When he does do the right thing, no one backs him up, leaving him vulnerable to the very sell out you bitch about. This week he appointed Elizabeth Warren and the endless conversation was about whether or not he was secretly sidelning her and didn’t give her the actual title, therefore he was selling out or it was a half-measure.

    A coworker of mine broke up with his girlfriend because she constantly complained what he did wasn’t good enough…he didn’t spent enough time with her, didn’t buy her nice enough things, wasn’t funny enough, wasn’t social enough with her friends, and when he tried, he got criticized for either trying too hard or not hard enough or not being serious.

    He commented ‘Now I know what Obama feels like”

    He’s not going to do anything to get you excited, because he can’t do anything to get you excited, but he’s gonna call you out on it. Deal with it. Or rally around your President once and while when he needs it.

  93. 93
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    I slept from about 8 o’clock last night until 8:30 this morning. I’m shocked the dogs let me get away with that. Feeling a little better, but I know how this goes… you feel better when you wake up, and by noon you are ready to shoot yourself.

    I feel ya. It’s going around.

    I had a head cold that went into my chest and have barely been out of bed since Sunday night. Just taking out the garbage left me in a cold sweat.

    After days of self-medicating with OTC stuff, I finally went into the doc, who diagnosed bronchitis. Got an inhaler, some antibiotics, and Cheratussin (contains codine, yum!). Already improving…and I must say that sleeping with a vaporizer with mentholatum in the room has made my chest a lot looser.

    Good luck, buddy.

  94. 94
    Keith G says:

    @Corner Stone: So Corner, you are an always-on-call, all-purpose, 24/7 spewer of gratuitous assholery?

    I knew there was a reason I liked you.

  95. 95
    John S. says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Don’t talk to me like you fucking know me or have ever engaged me before in any way that you are qualified to comment on what I’m doing now as opposed to before.

    Save that shit for the other regulars who waste their time on you and your peculiar brand of defeatism.

  96. 96
    Nick says:

    @BTD:

    “Normal people” are inspired by this? Really?

    “normal people” aren’t even paying attention to this.

  97. 97
    Corner Stone says:

    @eemom: “I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days. ”

    Why would I waste my time explaining my moral and ethical positions to a deeply amoral individual such as yourself?
    You lack the capacity to understand any of them.

  98. 98
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith G: I’m with you dog.
    I am right here with you.

  99. 99
    DC10 says:

    They were looking desperately for SOMETHING to be angry about after Obama thwarted their originally planned poutrage by actually putting Elizabeth Warren in place.

  100. 100
    Corner Stone says:

    @John S.: I don’t have to know you to determine you’re a fucking clownshoe.
    You are confusing yourself. Dumbass.

  101. 101
    BTD says:

    @Nick:

    PRECISELY. Only the people who have chosen to be pissed off are paying attention to it. Which means the up side to this is nonexistent.

  102. 102
    Corner Stone says:

    @BTD: Which is what I keep asking. Who is being teased here?

  103. 103
    BTD says:

    @Nick:

    “Because after a while, when you’re trying to please people who are never pleased by anything, you need to vent frustration. It’s not supposed to help. ”

    If you “need” to vent your frustrations, you should not be in politics, which is the stupidest endeavor known to man.

  104. 104
    J. A. Baker says:

    I’m off to drink robitussin.

    I can’t believe this hasn’t been said yet, but…

    Looks like you picked the wrong week to quit drinking cough syrup. :-P

  105. 105
    BTD says:

    @John S.:

    Setting aside the irony, when you write “Because sometimes you have to acknowledge that the people who allegedly work “with” you really don’t. ”

    “Have” to? To what end? I have said this for many years – politics is stupid. If you can’t deal with that fact, get out of politics.

  106. 106
    Corner Stone says:

    @John S.: My name is John S. and I’m totally dropping knowledge here dawg!
    Don’t step to me like you know me son! I’ve got all the right words capitalized, and all the right phrases to mock you fools!
    I am the original high stepper! Now get back before I burn you with what I am spittin’!

  107. 107
    Brachiator says:

    @liberal
    Re: Obama rightly focused on what was actually accomplished…

    The key difference being you think a lot was accomplished, whereas I think that even given political realities, not so much was accomplished.

    Thank you for reinforcing my point. Today, right now, we can either work towards improving building upon the achievements of the Obama administration, or you can sit back and watch as the GOP and their tea party allies try to obstruct and tear everything down.

    Your judgments about the quality of Obama’s accomplishments and “political realities” (whatever that means) are beside the point.

    By the way, I assume that Palin is going to make a serious run for the presidency in 2012. Watching a clip of a recent clip of her being interviewed by Bill O’Reilly, it is clear that she is absolutely giddy with power and is reveling in her role as political power broker.

    And clearly, the GOP mainstream is loving this. They obviously pulled Karl Rove aside to remind him that if they get enough tea par tiers into Congress, they won’t need to rely on blue dog Democrats. Any tea baggers will be a permanent obstruction, unalterably opposed to compromise or bipartisanship.

  108. 108
    Mnemosyne says:

    @slag:

    And maybe he did that (I don’t really care enough about this issue to go find the whole thing), but from what I’ve read on Greenwald’s site, that understanding part was missing. And as a result, it made Obama look callous and out of touch.

    So you read the out-of-context quote on Greenwald and have decided that Greenwald must be right because you’re too lazy to go look at the speech for yourself? So therefore you’re going to judge the speech solely on Greenwald’s interpretation of it?

    Jesus, no wonder we’re losing.

  109. 109
    John S. says:

    @Corner Stone:

    That’s high praise coming from a fuckstick like you. Seriously, you’re the biggest assclown on BJ in years, so if you think I’m a moron, that’s a compliment.

  110. 110
    slag says:

    @John S.:

    Which makes perfect sense when the objective is to whine and complain.

    You know. Normally I would let this go, but today, I’m going to take this argument on just because I feel like it.

    Here’s the deal (as a whiny liberal/progressive myself): I spent the entire eight years of the Bush Administration (and a good portion of the Clinton Administration) being ignored completely. My opinions, my values, my interests were nowhere to be found in the larger discourse. Nowhere (except maybe on Comedy Central). I was powerless. And after Obama’s election and Democrats dominated both the House and the Senate, I had this fantasy that, for a while at least, that dynamic would change somewhat. And it did change. For like a minute and a half. And then…whoomp…my opinions, values, and interests once again became almost completely irrelevant. And it sucks. So, I’m totally empathetic with the whiners (of which I am one) because things aren’t what they should be and people didn’t do things my way and I’m right and they’re wrong etc etc.

    The thing is that Obama says he wants to be President of everyone. And that’s the right attitude. But it’s a hard thing to do. And I can see why, often times, the whiners don’t feel like he’s a President to them. So they/we whine as a result of conditioning. When people prove to you over and over and over and over that you have no power, you become a whiner. It’s practically inevitable.

    That said, all this nonsense is irrelevant at this moment in time. You do what you can do. And while sometimes that ain’t much, if it’s all you’ve got, it’s what you use. And right now, the only thing we’ve got is our ability to put the same shitty people back into the same shitty offices where they can continue to do the same shitty job. It ain’t much, but it’s what we’ve got to do.

  111. 111
    Resident Firebagger says:

    It was mentioned earlier, but obviously it didn’t take with this crowd:

    Obama campaigned on the public option.

    At the beginning of HCR, the Obama administration negotiated away the public option.

    Wellpoint wrote the legislation that passed.

    Obama is really full of shit. And, when addressing his super-rich donors, he took a jab at those who recognize that he’s full of shit.

    Try, try, try to leave Jane Hamsher out of this, and just see it for what it is.

  112. 112
    Mnemosyne says:

    @BTD:

    Only the people who have chosen to be pissed off are paying attention to it.

    No, the people who have chosen to be pissed off by it are the only ones whining about it. The rest of us are paying attention and think it’s funny, and the hissy fit is making it even more funny. Nothing tickles my funny bone more than watching CS and liberal flail around in poutrage insisting that a mild joke by the president is the Worst! Gaffe! Evah!

  113. 113
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Resident Firebagger:

    Wellpoint wrote the legislation that passed.

    Ah, the legend that will never die.

    Wellpoint wrote the Baucus bill. The Baucus bill, you may be surprised to hear, was not the one that passed. Sorry to take your poutrage away.

  114. 114
    slag says:

    @Mnemosyne: I don’t say this often, but go fuck yourself. Way to miss the forest for the trees, you complete fucking Moran.

  115. 115
    John S. says:

    @BTD:

    I think you proved a long time ago that you don’t have any concept of the term “irony”.

    I came to accept politics is stupid a long time ago. What’s even MORE stupid are the pundits and so-called experts like you who have erected themselves high priests of the stupid.

  116. 116
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    I spent the entire eight years of the Bush Administration (and a good portion of the Clinton Administration) being ignored completely. My opinions, my values, my interests were nowhere to be found in the larger discourse. Nowhere. I was powerless. And after Obama’s election and Democrats dominated both the House and the Senate, I had this fantasy that, for a while at least, that dynamic would change somewhat. And it did change. For like a minute and a half. And then…whoomp…my opinions, values, and interests once again became almost completely irrelevant. And it sucks. So, I’m totally empathetic with the whiners (of which I am one) because things aren’t what they should be and people didn’t do things my way and I’m right and they’re wrong etc etc.

    You’re mad at Obama because you’re the smallest political group in the country?

    Teabaggers have networks, entire states, liberals have, what? San Francisco?

    I live in Brooklyn and even here the Greenwald types are a minority.

    Liberals are powerless because there are so few in the country. How about instead of bitching Obama isn’t pandering to the smallest voting bloc in the country, make the damn voting bloc bigger.

  117. 117
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    Hamsher, Greenwald and the Professional Left are pissed off at Obama? Again? SSDD.

    /yawn

  118. 118
    slag says:

    @Resident Firebagger: This is idiotic. Do you not know how many people are trying to “repeal” HCR? Have you not seen how Democrats have been viciously attacked by the very same people who you claim wrote the bill? Are you blind, stupid, or both?

  119. 119
    Mnemosyne says:

    @slag:

    Yes, you get outraged at an out-of-context quote and I’m the moran for pointing out that it was out of context. Good call there.

  120. 120
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne: I think you have it very wrong. Which is not unusual for a douchebag like you.
    I haven’t said anything about his comments, IIRC. I’m just curious who is the target of being teased.
    That’s the sum of my outrage.

  121. 121
    wasabi gasp says:

    A coworker of mine broke up with his girlfriend because she constantly complained what he did wasn’t good enough…he didn’t spent enough time with her, didn’t buy her nice enough things, wasn’t funny enough, wasn’t social enough with her friends, and when he tried, he got criticized for either trying too hard or not hard enough or not being serious.

    That will need to be trimmed down a bit to fit on a bumper sticker when your pal Romeo runs for president.

  122. 122
    Corner Stone says:

    @John S.: Weaksauce. If you can’t bring it then may I suggest you’re kind of a douche? An uber-douche, if you will?

  123. 123
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne: What a flat fucking liar you are.
    As usual.

  124. 124
    Mnemosyne says:

    By the way, the teasing of the firebaggers was point #2. This was point #1:

    Number one, the changes we’ve made are ones that will take some time to bear fruit. And folks who are out of work right now, whose homes are underwater right now, who are trying to figure out how to pay the bills or send their kids to college right now — they don’t have five or 10 years to wait. And so we’ve got to still work very hard in the short term to dig ourselves out of this enormous hole.

    Shockingly, the president’s point was that fixing all of the problems that we have is going to take a long time and that some Democrats want immediate results. Stop the presses!

  125. 125
    John S. says:

    @slag:

    What I have to do is go out and vote for the best option available, and in all my life that has never been a Republican. Until this year.

    I live in Florida, so I feel compelled to vote for Crist. Not because I like him or because his ideology is even close to mine, but because right now, he is the best chance for keeping Marco fucking Rubio out of office. That is more important than maintaining my ideological purity.

    I have no illusions about politicians and the masters they serve, but I know the difference between what is possible and what is probable.

  126. 126
    Nick says:

    @wasabi gasp:

    that will need to be trimmed down a bit to fit on a bumper sticker when your pal Romeo runs for president.

    Vote for me, I’m sure you’ll find a reason not to.

  127. 127
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: When Obama said “you know who you are” and people laughed, those people laughing were likely the ones referred to in the joke.

  128. 128
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Speaking of douches…

  129. 129
    slag says:

    @Nick:

    Liberals are powerless because there are so few in the country. How about instead of bitching Obama isn’t pandering to the smallest voting bloc in the country, make the damn voting bloc bigger.

    Great idea. Let’s do that.

    Although you may have noticed a little part of our society that puts a small dent in the dichotomous situation you’ve laid out. In America, power begets power. And it would be nice if the people in power (ie, Democrats) helped us make the damn voting bloc bigger. So, an argument can easily be made that by paying a little more attention to liberals (ie, conferring power upon them), Obama would be helping us make more of them. It’s an argument that’s not entirely without merit and has been made many times.

  130. 130
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Sorry, I couldn’t understand you through all the sobbing about how mmmmeeeeeaaaaannnn we all are to you. Have a kleenex.

  131. 131
    Corner Stone says:

    @wasabi gasp: Meh. Nothing Nick ever types here is true so I don’t think his “buddy” is in any real trouble with his “girlfriend”.
    And I’m about 100% no one would ever quip that “Now he knows how Obama feels.” when a girlfriend gives him a hard time about something.
    “Johnny, you bought bone out rib eye steaks again! Instead of bone in, which you know I like??”
    “Johnny: Damn. Now I know how Obama feels.”

  132. 132
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: Stop bringing context into it.

  133. 133
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne: where?

  134. 134
    slag says:

    @Mnemosyne: I repeat: Go fuck yourself.

  135. 135
    J says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I don’t know. Why would it be so hard to say something along the lines of:

    Our country is facing terrible problems, many caused and now being exacerbated by an opposition party that is not willing to work for the common good in a spirit of bipartisanship [I’ve come to loathe the word ‘bipartisanship’ with every fiber of my being, but I threw it again because it seems to be mandatory in contexts like this]. We–this administration, I–have made mistakes, have not gotten everything we wanted, want more and know we–the country–need more, but I’d like to remind my critics in the party of what we have accomplished, and I want them to know that I and my colleagues in my administration recognize that much more needs to be done, are doing our damnedest to get it done and need their help.’

    I don’t know where Eemom dredged up that definition of ‘mock’, but in present day English it means, as it has for a long time, something like ‘make fun of’ or ‘ridicule’. There is such a thing as gentle mockery or raillery, and maybe it was in that spirit that Obama spoke. If so, his critics got the tone wrong.

    One idea expressed in many comments above is, however, I think just wrong, viz. that most criticism of Obama can be dismissed as coming from people who wouldn’t be satisfied with anything he did. No doubt that’s true of some people, but the successes touted by Obama, the health care bill, financial reform are pretty disappointing compared to what we should and possibly–and I acknowledge that’s more complicated and controversial–could have had. Why is the only alternative to being dissatisfied with everything Obama does no matter what being totally satisfied with anything he does? One of the forces behind progress when it is made is a bit of utopianism. We owe the utopians something, even if they complain a bit too much because we wouldn’t be where we are without their complaints. But is it just the unrealistic utopians who are disappointed? Has the Obama administration been doing its damnedest? Or have half measures, and feeble compromises been the height of their ambition from the start? (Don’t know myself, but don’t think people who are disappointed are crazy either.)

  136. 136
    Corner Stone says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee: Looking in the mirror again Mike?

  137. 137
    John S. says:

    @Corner Stone:

    More high praise, thanks!

    Seriously, I take about as much stock in what you think as Obama cares about what Sarah Palin tweets. If you’re looking for someone to take offense or give a shit what you think, you may want to move on to one of your usual suspects.

    Have a nice day!

  138. 138
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    Although you may have noticed a little part of our society that puts a small dent in the dichotomous situation you’ve laid out. In America, power begets power. And it would be nice if the people in power (ie, Democrats) helped us make the damn voting bloc bigger.

    Oh for crying out load, does the whining ever stop? Obama’s job isn’t to make the liberal voting bloc bigger, and he’s not going to help, or be successful if he did. The people in power are NOT going to help you, because they can’t. They in office despite liberals being the smallest political bloc in the country and that’s how they’re going to govern until it changes.
    Republicans realized this in the 1960s and moved forward without them, when will we?

  139. 139
    NobodySpecial says:

    @John S.:

    Because sometimes you have to acknowledge that the people who allegedly work “with” you really don’t. They don’t like you, they treat you like an asshole, nothing you do is good enough for them and despite wearing the same uniform, they are not on your team.

    I want this shit bronzed. Really.

    Because who’s not on his team? The left who pushed for the public option he supported, or Ben Nelson, who held it hostage?

    The left who wants Democrats to line up behind Democratic Party planks, or the spineless asshole Blue Dogs who give Obama the finger every chance they get, avoid linking themselves to him or his policies, and don’t want him coming around to their districts?

    Keep fucking that chicken, dude. You can join Nick in your unusual defeatism where nothing Left may ever happen in our center right nation.

  140. 140
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: The people paying $30K per plate? They were the ones disappointed with the progress of the Obama admin?
    The ones paying $30K + were the dicks in this storyline?

  141. 141
    eemom says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Why would I waste my time explaining my moral and ethical positions to a deeply amoral individual such as yourself?
    You lack the capacity to understand any of them.

    I’m not the only one here though.

    Surely you must have some respect for SOMEBODY who reads this blog, or it really is pretty strange that you spend so much time here.

    A lot of that time you spend calling out the rest of us for our supposed lack of these things you purport to possess.

    So I’ll ask again:

    What are YOU “for”?

    What are YOUR “non-malleable”

    1. Actual planks,
    2. Ideals, and
    3. Positions?

    I really think as a community we are entitled to an answer to this.

  142. 142
    wasabi gasp says:

    Vote for me, I’m sure you’ll find a reason not to.

    Total loser, but it fits.

  143. 143
    Nick says:

    @J:

    One of the forces behind progress when it is made is a bit of utopianism. We owe the utopians something, even if they complain a bit too much because we wouldn’t be where we are without their complaints.

    We don’t owe them shit. Sorry. We made progress despite their best efforts to stop it because it wasn’t utopian.

  144. 144
    Corner Stone says:

    @John S.: You’re retreating then. Always an option for the under manned or under gunned. Thanks.

  145. 145
    Nick says:

    @wasabi gasp: Well, that’s why he’ll never run for office. Who would want to?

    I sure don’t…to run for office, you have to first want to make people’s lives better, and I’m no longer sure I want to make these people’s lives better.

  146. 146
    John S. says:

    @Nobody Special:

    Hey genius, defeatism is complaining you only got a field goal when you wanted a touchdown. Because nothing inspires fans more than a team who shits all over itself. Dropping the ball on purpose because you’re mad at the quarterback doesn’t win the fucking game.

    Grow up.

    ETA: And regarding the Blue Dogs… I never would have suggested that a path to victory includes taking members of the opposing team and sticking your uniform on them (hence my analogy). That doesn’t make them play for your team. All those Republicans wearing Democrat jerseys need to be benched.

  147. 147
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    The left who pushed for the public option he supported, or Ben Nelson, who held it hostage?

    there’s a difference between the (small minority) of the left that pushed for the public option and the larger portion of it that sat around and demanded Obama find votes to pass it, somehow, someway and waited until he was forced to abandon it like it was some sort of personal victory of them, and never accepted that the votes were never there and the movement for it was never there and sometimes you lose battles, even in your own party.

    Neither are on his team, they’re all jockeying for power and relevance in a party that isn’t dominated by either bloc.

  148. 148
    Allison W. says:

    How do you even mock a “centrist? Seriously.

    “what’s up with those centrists, huh? cooperatin’, negotiatin’, always seeking “common” grond. Pfft, Loooosers!”

    obviously I am no comedian, but I don’t see how anyone could mock a “centrist”.

  149. 149
    slag says:

    @Nick: This is an odd argument coming after eight years of the 700 Hundred Club Administration. Are you suggesting that Jesus Camp is a ginormous voting bloc?

  150. 150
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    Because who’s not on his team? The left who pushed for the public option he supported, or Ben Nelson, who held it hostage?

    Who has a vote in the Senate, Ben Nelson or the left?

    The left who wants Democrats to line up behind Democratic Party planks, or the spineless asshole Blue Dogs who give Obama the finger every chance they get, avoid linking themselves to him or his policies, and don’t want him coming around to their districts?

    Who has a vote in the House and Senate, the left or the Blue Dogs?

  151. 151
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Jeez, context people. This was a speech given to the moneyed elite that can afford a thirty thousand dollar meal. When you can shell out that kinda dough, Obama will dance to whatever tune you call.

  152. 152
    John S. says:

    Seriously, can we just bring on the parliamentary style democracy already and stop pretending this two-party shit works?

    Let people vote for the politicians that actually represent them, and then let them form a governing coalition that is actually beholdent to them. We’re already receiving all the negative effects of such a system without seeing any of the rewards.

  153. 153
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    Are you suggesting that Jesus Camp is a ginormous voting bloc?

    um, yeah, duh, it’s a hell of a lot larger than liberals.

  154. 154
    slag says:

    @John S.:

    I live in Florida, so I feel compelled to vote for Crist. Not because I like him or because his ideology is even close to mine, but because right now, he is the best chance for keeping Marco fucking Rubio out of office. That is more important than maintaining my ideological purity.

    Agreed. You’re going to do it because it’s your best option. But it sucks. And you should at least be able to whine a little about it in the process. This is America, after all.

  155. 155
    Nick says:

    @John S.: i agree, with the Jane Hamsher Party gets 5% of the vote and fails to make the threshold to win any seats in Congress, maybe then the professional left will stop pretending the problem is Democrats don’t pander to them enough and realize the problem is insanely misinformed right wing voters.

  156. 156
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @J:

    Why would it be so hard to say something along the lines of:
    __
    Our country is facing terrible problems, many caused and now being exacerbated by an opposition party that is not willing to work for the common good in a spirit of bipartisanship [I’ve come to loathe the word ‘bipartisanship’ with every fiber of my being, but I threw it again because it seems to be mandatory in contexts like this]. We—this administration, I—have made mistakes, have not gotten everything we wanted, want more and know we—the country—need more, but I’d like to remind my critics in the party of what we have accomplished, and I want them to know that I and my colleagues in my administration recognize that much more needs to be done, are doing our damnedest to get it done and need their help.’

    Do you also wonder why toasts at weddings tell mildly embarrassing stories instead of being uniformly soul-suckingly boring and earnest?

  157. 157
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    But it sucks. And you should at least be able to whine a little about it in the process. This is America, after all.

    and the President is free to mock your whining and say it’s counterproductive, cause it is

  158. 158
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: Do you think that Jane Hamsher, for example, couldn’t afford $30k at a fund raiser?

    Should Obama’s talks at fund raisers be limited to self-criticism and apology? Because that would really fire people up. He talked about problems in country and the fact that his administration was working to solve them. He talked about the difficulties involved and, through what I perceived as gentle mockery, he acknowledged the frustration of those who want things to go faster.

    I am sure I will now be called a spineless centrist. Too bad, the country is in deep shit. Since Obama’s election we have swung the pendulum from the right to the center/center-left; it’s a start. If you want things to go to from left to right, you have to go through the middle.

  159. 159
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: Do you think that Jane Hamsher, for example, couldn’t afford $30k at a fund raiser?

    Should Obama’s talks at fund raisers be limited to self-criticism and apology? Because that would really fire people up. He talked about problems in country and the fact that his administration was working to solve them. He talked about the difficulties involved and, through what I perceived as gentle mockery, he acknowledged the frustration of those who want things to go faster.

    I am sure I will now be called a spineless centrist. Too bad, the country is in deep shit. Since Obama’s election we have swung the pendulum from the right to the center/center-left; it’s a start. If you want things to go to from left to right, you have to go through the middle.

  160. 160
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @J:

    One of the forces behind progress when it is made is a bit of utopianism

    There’s a difference between “utopianism” and “where’s my utopia, bitch?”

  161. 161
    slag says:

    @Nick: No. It’s not. Evangelicals make up about 26% of this country. And I’m sure a much smaller portion of that are of the Pat Robertson genre that the Bush crew laid hands upon.

  162. 162
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    I don’t understand why they let President Obama make disparaging remarks about real Democrats, but forbid him from making balancing disparaging remarks about centrist and Blue Dog DINOs.

  163. 163
    BTD says:

    @John S.:

    Huh? If this comment is supposed to be proving how stupid politics is, then Win!

  164. 164
    slag says:

    @Nick: Yes. It is. And I’m free to point out the simple fact that I don’t think it was such a good idea. At least not the way he did it.

    But then I’m a crazy hardliner who gets “outraged” and “mad” about shit that I’ve said I don’t really care about but that I can see why people might take exception, while you guys are rational moderates who think the smartest way to approach the situation is “neener neener neener you suck!”. So what do I know?

  165. 165
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Mnemosyne: That’s a dumb argument. The question was, who’s on his team?

    Is every Democrat with a vote on Obama’s team?

    Is every Democrat without a vote not on Obama’s team?

    Logic, please. You’re adding entropy.

  166. 166
    BTD says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Indeed. But you are not the head of a political party running in an election in November. I do not expect discipline from you.

    Whether this is funny or not is not what I am talking about (I mean honestly, what is more unintentionally funny than whining about whining?) This matters not, but the President should try and avoid unforced errors.

  167. 167
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    Evangelicals make up about 26% of this country.

    How big do you think real liberals are? I’d be surprised if they’re more than 20%.

    I’m sorta baffled by the bubble some of you live in.

  168. 168
    roshan says:

    @Uncle Clarence Thomas:
    Thomas dude, the centrist and the blue dogs are all bipartisan and happy with whatever they get from Obama, hence the Prez has no complaints about them. On the other hand these fucking assholes of the professional left variety try to fuck up every legislation with their public option and civil liberties whine. Obama just can’t bear to listen to that man, he HAS to say something about that. As a bonus all the centrists and blue dogs are going to be re-elected this november. The public loves them, truly.

  169. 169
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Corner Stone:

    The supposed “centrists” here with FlipYrWhig being a prime example, do not have any actual planks, ideals or positions that are not infinitely malleable.

    I have never once called myself a “centrist.” Fuck centrists. My actual political positions are essentially social democracy with a big role for an aggressively justice-making central government. But, here’s the thing, _I know I’m not getting that_. Why am I not getting that? Because way too few people share my views. It’s fucking pointless to carp about how mean backstabbing Obama won’t implement every item on my agenda — and, believe me, it’s a kickass agenda — given that even the supposedly liberal party is WAY to the right of me. So I don’t expect much. And I’m content with moving the needle in the right direction little by little.

    I mean, my desire is to have a lush green lawn without using chemical products. But there’s a big fucking shadow across my yard that means I would have to take heroic measures to actually accomplish that. I don’t wake up every morning bitching about how the sun and the dirt and the moles are obviously out to spite me. I try to make the best of the circumstances I have. And when it looks a little better, I’m pleased. (P.S. This is a parable.)

  170. 170
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    Is every Democrat with a vote on Obama’s team?

    No

    Is every Democrat without a vote not on Obama’s team?

    No

  171. 171
    NobodySpecial says:

    @John S.:

    Hey genius, defeatism is complaining you only got a field goal when you wanted a touchdown.

    I see. You are confused.

    That’s not defeatism. Defeatism is claiming that the best you can do is kick a field goal in the red zone after running one offensive play because, since that one didn’t work, no other play could possibly work.

    When you discuss the public option especially, defeatism is not the word to use on the left who called their Congresspeople and the White House and raised a public fit over the public option. Defeatism was the people who insisted there was no way to get there without even trying to get a vote. Now, was that the ones you call ‘firebaggers’?

    No.

  172. 172
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: When I want you to answer for Mnem, I’ll fucking ask you. Thanks.

  173. 173
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @slag:

    Evangelicals make up about 26% of this country.

    (1) Unhappy liberals are much, much less than that.
    (2) Unhappy liberals keep saying they don’t feel like voting anymore. Why are they surprised when people believe them and stop listening to them?

  174. 174
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    That’s not defeatism. Defeatism is claiming that the best you can do is kick a field goal in the red zone after running one offensive play because, since that one didn’t work, no other play could possibly work.

    We didn’t run only one offensive play.

  175. 175
    slag says:

    @Nick: Twenty one percent according to latest polling. That’s not that far off from the entire evangelical population of this country. And you could knock me over with a feather if I found out it was less than the Jesus Camp variety.

    You think there’s more of these people than there really are. Why? Because they have more power than they deserve. Why? In part because it was conferred upon them.

    When was the last time you saw Pat Robertson’s ugly mug on the teevee? Is it possible that the fact that he no longer has the ear of the President has something to do with his demise?

  176. 176
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    defeatism is not the word to use on the left who called their Congresspeople and the White House and raised a public fit over the public option

    They raised a public fit over the public option _because they wanted to kill the bill_. That’s _seeking_ defeat.

  177. 177
    roshan says:

    It’s fascinating to watch one political party actually try to put certifiable kooks into power, while the leader of the other party actively tries to certify the sane people in his party as kooks. Man, the mystery of that enthusiasm gap is unfathomable, I tell you.

  178. 178
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @FlipYrWhig: This (but for the whole lawn parable-I have no lawn).

  179. 179
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: Nah, you ran zero. Actually, your head coach went over to their head coach and said, ‘If you let me kick a field goal without rushing, then I won’t try for a touchdown.’

  180. 180
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @slag: You’re counting “liberals.” The number you need is liberals who think Obama’s results are not liberal enough. That’s a small percentage of a small percentage.

  181. 181
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    Twenty one percent according to latest polling. That’s not that far off from the entire evangelical population of this country. And you could knock me over with a feather if I found out it was less than the Jesus Camp variety.

    Are you surprised they get more attention? they also vote all the time, while liberals don’t

    When was the last time you saw Pat Robertson’s ugly mug on the teevee?

    about a half hour ago.

  182. 182
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NobodySpecial: If you were down by 2 at the time, you’d be pretty stupid not to take the free FG rather than trying to Send A Message with a TD.

  183. 183
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial: what does this mean?

  184. 184
    NobodySpecial says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Erm, what?

    We’ve been told over and over by Obama that if we wanted something done, we had to make him do it.

    And we did. We pushed a lot harder for the public option to be included (to the point where Harry was actually going to bring it to the floor for a vote, mind you) when you guys were insisting there was no use to even try.

    No, it’s your insistence that the public option would automatically kill the bill, with no substantive proof either way.

  185. 185
    Alan in SF says:

    Hey, I repeatedly lied to you. What’s the big deal? Get over it! Some people are so damn sensitive.

  186. 186
    NobodySpecial says:

    @FlipYrWhig: So when you have 60 Senate Democrats, you’re down 2?

    Who’s defeatist again? :p

  187. 187
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Actually, it is liberals who think that Obama’s results are not liberal enough and that he could have done better given the make up of Congress. I am a liberal who does not think Obama’s results are liberal enough. I just don’t think that much more was possible at this time.

  188. 188
    slag says:

    @FlipYrWhig: “Unhappy” liberals? Seriously, that’s where we’re going with this? Just to prove the argument that power doesn’t beget more power and Democrats paying a little more attention to liberals might help liberals expand the coalition?

    OK. You win. You’re right. Democrats should pay no more attention to liberals. Ever. At least not until all liberals are “unhappy” or achieve a minimum of 27% of the population.

    The weird thing is that I thought FDL’s strategery of trying to make liberals “unhappy” with this administration was a flawed one. Now that I know that if we increase our unhappiness, we get more power, I’ll have to rethink that.

  189. 189
    Bernard says:

    ah the sweet sound of throwing members of the left under the bus. How dare anyone criticize Obama for criticizing those who criticize Obama.

    you mean Obama has to do “something” concrete for the left?
    or some of those “unworthies” will complain they got shafted?
    oh my

    we all know there has to be party unity for the Democrats to succeed. So get over it!!
    never ever criticize Obama ever!!!!! he’s doing the best he can… for the Republican party that is. and his Overlords.

    and to think, which i gather most here don’t care to, some people “actually” think Obama is a Blue Dog!!

    Off to the “education” camp where we teach obedience to the Obama Democratic party line.

    sounds more like REpublican “my way or the highway” Big Brother bs to me.

    but who am i, just a voter who got thrown under the bus, because the Democrats have to “be patient”, you ignorant “moran.” lol.

    ask me why the Democrats want to be Republicans? that i am still trying to understand. gosh i could’ve voted for McCain if i wanted the “right” way. lol

    silly rabbit, Trix are for kids!!!

  190. 190
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    We’ve been told over and over by Obama that if we wanted something done, we had to make him do it. And we did.

    you did?

    We pushed a lot harder for the public option to be included (to the point where Harry was actually going to bring it to the floor for a vote, mind you) when you guys were insisting there was no use to even try.

    And how did that work out of you? I’m sure you’re giving Harry props for trying, and the President for letting him, right? RIGHT?

    No, it’s your insistence that the public option would automatically kill the bill, with no substantive proof either way.

    Except for Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln all saying they woudn’t vote for the bill if it had the public option, thus, you know, killing it.

  191. 191
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    OK. You win. You’re right. Democrats should pay no more attention to liberals.

    The weird thing is they are paying attention to liberals, it’s the whiny ones whom they’re mocking, who are a subsection of the 20%.

  192. 192
    slag says:

    @Nick:

    Are you surprised they get more attention? they also vote all the time, while liberals don’t

    Actually, they don’t vote all the time. They voted for Bush. They’re a huge part of the reason he won.

    Hey–You’re right. Liberals don’t vote all the time either! They voted for Obama.

  193. 193
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NobodySpecial: Senate Dems don’t just back liberal policies. Lieberman isn’t actually a Dem. Nelson, Bayh, and the rest are probably center-right, and they count as part of that 60. But then, you knew that.

  194. 194
    Nick says:

    @Bernard: It’s always funny to watch liberals complain they’re being told to act like Republicans and not criticize the President when they’re complaining members of Congress and other right wing Democrats should “act like Republicans and not criticize the President”

    Hypocrites to the left of me, hypocrites to the right, no wonder they’re both fringe.

  195. 195
    NobodySpecial says:

    @FlipYrWhig: So when you have 60 Senate Democrats, you’re down 2?

    Who’s defeatist again? :p

    @Nick:

    you did?

    Well, I know I did. I’m sure Durbin’s secretary got tired of hearing from me. What did you do besides sit here on the blog and bitch about liberals?

    And how did that work out of you? I’m sure you’re giving Harry props for trying, and the President for letting him, right? RIGHT?

    Oh, I see. The President LET Harry try.

    So when Congress doesn’t do what Obama wants, what’s that?

    Or is this just another instance of you claiming victories for Obama and losses for everyone Not-Obama?

    Except for Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln all saying they woudn’t vote for the bill if it had the public option, thus, you know, killing it.

    If you would like to believe that politicians can never switch their stated position on a bill, I have a bridge to sell you.

  196. 196
    WaterGirl says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Try some ginger tea, Stash makes a good one,

    I am a big fan of stash tea, so I ran right over to their website. Searching for “ginger” brought up 114 matches. Could you be more specific?

  197. 197
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    Actually, they don’t vote all the time. They voted for Bush. They’re a huge part of the reason he won.

    This doesn’t even make sense.

    You knew what i meant, Evangelicals vote in large numbers, liberals don’t…they didn’t vote in large numbers for Obama. The turnout for Obama among liberals wasn’t much higher than in 2004, less than a 2% jump.

  198. 198
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NobodySpecial: Jane Hamsher literally told people who read her blog, one of the biggest out there, to rally _against_ the health care bill. Markos Moulitsas dabbled in that too. On the other hand, Steve Benen wrote the “Pass the Damned Bill” memo. So, yes, prominent voices in the “Obama’s not liberal enough” crowd wanted to kill the bill, which isn’t the textbook definition of “defeatist” but involves working for genuine defeat.

    @NobodySpecial:

    when you have 60 Senate Democrats, you’re down 2?

    Yes, when like a solid 20 of them are conservatives.

    And it actually wouldn’t be like making a deal with the other team. It’s more like making a deal with the referees. Keeping the forces that wrecked the last healthcare reform effort from doing it again may have felt impure, but, you know, bill is better than no bill, and “bill with bitching” is _much_ better than “no bill with louder and more widespread bitching.”

  199. 199
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: And yet, they do manage at times to vote with the President, or even to modify their behavior with pressure from the left. Or do you claim that the public option is their hill to die on?

  200. 200
    John S. says:

    @Nobody Special:

    Apparently, sports analogies are over your head. Stick to the incessant whining – it suits you better.

  201. 201
    NobodySpecial says:

    @John S.: So, you got nothing, huh? Well, we knew that already. Head for the showers, kid.

  202. 202
    Allison W. says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    No, it’s your insistence that the public option would automatically kill the bill, with no substantive proof either way.

    correct me if I’m wrong, but I do remember a certain Democrat (who I’m sure was covering for other Democrats) threatening to NOT vote for the bill if there was a public option in the bill and if we didn’t have that person’s vote, the bill would not have passed.

  203. 203
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NobodySpecial: What is your point?

  204. 204
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    If you would like to believe that politicians can never switch their stated position on a bill, I have a bridge to sell you.

    If you would like to believe a politician will switch their position from right to left with a Democratic president in power coming from a red state, I’d buy that bridge from you.

  205. 205
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @Allison W.:

    obviously I am no comedian, but I don’t see how anyone could mock a “centrist”.

    You’re parasitic weasels feeding off the political movement of the moment. You wrap yourself in the cause of “progressivism” while carrying the banner of conservativism and “worldly realism.” You have aided and abetted every single corporatist and reactionary impulse this country has had, without any regards to silly antiquated notions like “social justice” or “inequality” or “economic fairness” here and abroad as long as your retirement funds keep growing.

    You are mindless, intellectually uncurious little twits who are wholly dependent on others to create and devise your policy positions for you. And when they do, these liberals and academics and “retarded utopians,” you mock them for it and spit in their face and call them elitists and neophytes. At best, you appropriate these liberal policies as your own without crediting where they came from, at worst, you outright sabotage their implementation. And then when the progenitors of social progress speak up when their policies have only been fractionally implemented or misimplemented or not even implemented at all, you tell them to shut the fuck up and learn to love the system already because there’s no changing it. Ever.

    You are obeisant to power and authority, to whoever will tell you the prettiest story. You worship process and public spectacle and fraudulent tales of a “better” past gone by.

    I don’t have a punchline.

  206. 206
    eemom says:

    @eemom:

    [crickets]

    hmmmm. “Corner Stone” won’t tell ANYBODY what “non-malleable
    actual planks, ideals, and positions” he holds that the rest of us lack.

    Indeed, it appears that the very question was enough to scared his big, bad, name-calling ass clean off the thread.

  207. 207
    Nick says:

    @Allison W.: Oh but Allison, Joe Lieberman could’ve changed his vote, REALLY, he could’ve!

    How? um…uh…um…Jane, help me out here?…um…uh…kos?…OH! bully pulpit! Yeah, that’s it!

  208. 208
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: The same as always – you guys claimed the public option could never ever ever pass even though your entire basis for that was to claim that politicians never lie about or change their stated positions on bills. That’s nonsense and defeatism of the first order.

    And yet, when it comes to the narrative, it’s the ‘left’ or ‘professional left’ or the ‘firebaggers’ who are defeatist, and it’s the folks who insist that Nothing Can Be Done are really the optimists. Pardon me if I don’t believe you.

    ETA – look at Nick’s post right above me. I rest my case.

  209. 209
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bob Loblaw: Thank you for sharing.

  210. 210
    John S. says:

    @Alan in SF:

    Yes, clearly Obama broke his promise by not signing legislation that Congress never sent him. Especially when his “allies” in Congress fuck him over whenever they get a chance. And if only he used the bully pulpit more, like when he spoke out about Park 51 and not one prominent Democrat had his back.

    Apparently, you believed that Obama had the magical ability to create and enact laws all by himself. If you’re looking for an authoritarian daddy, you picked the wrong party.

  211. 211
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @slag: If “liberals” are 21% of the population or whatever, liberals who feel like they’re not being paid enough attention are, like, let’s be generous and say it’s 33% _of that_. (It sure isn’t 50%, so I figured I’d go with a number between 25 and 50.) That’d be 7% of the population. It’s a loud presence online, but is it loud in the actual world you navigate? I’m not surprised that there’s not a ton of deference paid to this constituency. Remember that by the tail end of the Bush administration there were righties who were calling out Bush for insufficient conservatism. No one particularly worried about the dire effects of that.

  212. 212
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Bob Loblaw: THIS!

    Wow. Boblaw totally nailed you parasites but don’t worry, we’ll be giving out consolation prizes to the best pro-Obama essays.

  213. 213
    Nick says:

    @Bob Loblaw: How about “Pick a side!”

  214. 214
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: You’re wrong, because Lieberman (as you keep saying) is not a Democrat.

    Of course, there’s no way you could woo a Snowe or Collins, either, who are in blue states where the public option polled even more strongly. Nooo. They never vote with Democrats.

    Oh, wait…

  215. 215
    Allison W. says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    Except for Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln all saying they woudn’t vote for the bill if it had the public option, thus, you know, killing it.

    NS said:

    If you would like to believe that politicians can never switch their stated position on a bill, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Uhm, you must not be familiar with Lieberman, Nelson and Lincoln?

    sure politicians switch votes, and sometimes they don’t.

  216. 216
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Bob Loblaw: That little display was like running Ayn Rand through a left-o-mizer.

  217. 217
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Allison W.: So you’re saying that the public option, again, was their hill to die on?

  218. 218
    John S. says:

    @eemom:

    Corner Stone is simply retreating. Always an option for the under manned or under gunned.

    His/her words.

  219. 219
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    You’re wrong, because Lieberman (as you keep saying) is not a Democrat.

    @NobodySpecial:

    So when you have 60 Senate Democrats, you’re down 2?

    Who was the 60th Democrat then? The voice in your head?

    i never said he was a Democrat, don’t think he is really, but I also never said we had 60, we have 57 on a good day.

  220. 220

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think loblolly just figured out how to mount his crown of thorns with one hand nailed to the cross and the other wrapped around his dick. Lucky for us, there is nobody to provide pictures.

  221. 221
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: It was Obama, because he’s so awesome, he counts as two.

  222. 222
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @eemom: Can we be completely sure Obama didn’t have him murdered?

  223. 223
    NobodySpecial says:

    Anyways, I’m out. The ending of the NIU-Illinois game calls. Peace.

  224. 224
    Allison W. says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    I’m saying they didn’t want it, never believed in it, benefited from voting against it and no amount of pressure or threats from the president and voters would have changed their minds.

  225. 225
    slag says:

    @Nick: You know. I’m tired of this. We’ve gone from liberals are near extinction to “unhappy” liberals are near extinction to liberals exist but don’t vote enough all in service of the point that Democrats shouldn’t be paying more attention to liberals.

    And none of this has remotely touched on the possibility that maybe Democrats should be doing what liberals want because often what liberals want is something akin to the right thing to do. And why haven’t we approached that point? Because we’re idiots and we have stupidly low expectations of people, and “doing the right thing” is simply not even a matter of discussion anymore.

    Fuck this, is what I’m saying. It’s no wonder we can’t make peace in the Middle East. Here we are, in 98% agreement of the important issues of our time, and we still fight over this garbage. We can’t even agree on a two-blog solution, for chrissakes. How fucked up is that?

  226. 226
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NobodySpecial: Back up, there, big guy. When the Dems reached out to Snowe, what did they get? A big wa-wa trumpet blurt from people like Atrios, mad about “President Snowe.” Working with Snowe was anathema. Giving Landrieu and Lincoln and Nelson and Lieberman what they wanted was anathema. There was only one solution, which was standing firm and accepting no more compromise. And of course that would have been a spectacular defeat that ripped the party limb from limb and made no future legislation possible. But, supposedly, the people who have never yet liked anything Obama has done claim they would have been marginally less dispirited than they are on a typical Tuesday afternoon, so they should totally have done it that way.

  227. 227
    John S. says:

    @Nobody Special:

    “Got nothing” seems to be your milieu, not mine. But that’s some mighty fine projection. Maybe if you throw enough shit around, some of it will stick. And then, you can finally have something.

    You’re not just nobody special, you’re nobody worth acknowledging.

  228. 228
    PurpleGirl says:

    He made these remarks to people who live in the richest county in the country. These are the corporate overlords. These are the people who decide when their companies start to hire workers or let people go. These are the people whose contributions to non-profits mean non-profits hire or let workers go.

    Just think about that for a second — they could afford to pay $30,000 a person to have dinner with the president. No thinking about a budget, no thinking about saving up for it, they can and did say yes to someone that they’d like to attend the dinner and they could just write the check for it. These are the people who want that tax cut not to expire…

    Maybe I’m just a little frazzled right now being unemployed and all but…

    Why aren’t these f”kers creating jobs?

  229. 229
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    The same as always – you guys claimed the public option could never ever ever pass even though your entire basis for that was to claim that politicians never lie about or change their stated positions on bills.

    Who could have been moved? Which Blue Dogs would have changed their votes? I posit that the fight was fought and the administration saw that what they got was as good as they were going to get at that time, so they took yes for an answer. I was writing, calling, and agitating my Senators and the Reps through out my state on behalf of the public option. When that time passed, I did the same to encourage passing the bill that is now law. I even Called Paul Ryan’s office in Janesville for all that good that did. Compromise is sometimes necessary.

  230. 230
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    Of course, there’s no way you could woo a Snowe or Collins, either, who are in blue states where the public option polled even more strongly. Nooo. They never vote with Democrats.

    Woo Olympia Snowe? Why didn’t Obama think of that?

    You people are unbelievable, you’re criticizing him for not doing what you criticized him for trying to do at the time?

    Worst Monday Morning Quaterbacking ever.

  231. 231
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    @roshan:

    Thanks roshan, that makes total sense! Now I don’t understand why I didn’t understand before.

  232. 232
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    And none of this has remotely touched on the possibility that maybe Democrats should be doing what liberals want because often what liberals want is something akin to the right thing to do.

    the road of history is littered with the corpses of political careers killed by doing “the right thing”

    Unfortunately, the “right thing to do” is not a factor in politics. If it’s “the right thing to do” then it shouldn’t be too difficult for us to rally the country around it with enough force to pressure our government to do it.

  233. 233
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @slag:

    all in service of the point that Democrats shouldn’t be paying more attention to liberals.

    No, that’s what you choose to hear. Democrats do pay attention to liberals; they pay attention to the kinds of liberals who actually get elected to shit. Why don’t Democrats pay more attention to the kinds of liberals who wrap themselves in nettle-cloth mantles just so they can talk about how much it stings? Frankly, those people are just masochists who crave the pain. They get off on feeling ignored. Paying attention to them on one thing just makes them complain about being ignored on another thing. It’s wearying. And there aren’t very many of them in the first place. So why don’t politicians reach out more to a fickle, mopey, angry, small group? Yes, it is very hard to figure.

  234. 234
    John S. says:

    @slag:

    I don’t believe in whining because it acheives nothing. I prefer to take my angst and put it to good use, like convincing my friends and family to vote, and to vote with their heads not their hearts. And volunteering to help good or better politicians win elections. And of course, going out to vote myself.

    These are positive actions derived from negative energy. Whining is just negative masturbation.

  235. 235
    slag says:

    @Nick:

    Unfortunately, the “right thing to do” is not a factor in politics.

    Yeah. Well. Who do we have to blame for that?

  236. 236
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Nick: You know what else they should have tried to do? Spend some time getting some Republican votes from the membership of the Senate Finance Committee!

  237. 237
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @FlipYrWhig: In other news, Nine Inch Nails fan not all that into Vampire Weekend.

  238. 238
    Allison W. says:

    @Bob Loblaw:

    LOL!!!

    Know why I’m laughing? know why you’re comment doesn’t offend me? ’cause I know you ain’t talking about me.

    See how easy that was? If you think what Obama said wasn’t true – just say ‘he ain’t talking about me’ and keep it moving. but your rant shows that he hit it right on target.

  239. 239
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @slag:

    Well. Who do we have to blame for that?

    250 years of American history.

  240. 240
    John S. says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    To continue with the sports analogy, these are the people who go for a touchdown on 4th down in the red zone when they are down by two. Because winning by one point isn’t enough. You have to humiliate your opponent and rub it in their face in order for it to really count as a victory.

  241. 241
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    Yeah. Well. Who do we have to blame for that?

    Voters.

  242. 242
    Allison W. says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Why don’t Democrats pay more attention to the kinds of liberals who wrap themselves in nettle-cloth mantles just so they can talk about how much it stings?

    This. Wow.

  243. 243
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @slag: That’s one question, but I think the more important one is this: Given the current realities, what is the best way to move forward?

  244. 244
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I came back for you, because unlike John S., who makes a living off of being wrong, and Nick, who makes a living off of passing along his idea that the Left Can Never Win Anything, Because They’re Surrounded By Real Americans…

    … You’re actually a reasonable person to discuss this with.

    I can’t say with certainty, and I never could. But first Obama has his meeting with Big Medicine prior to the bills even being introduced. Then we’re told by all the ‘reasonable’ people that introducing the public option will kill the bill, no questions asked, so don’t even bother. Again, given that politicians switch their positions all the time on bills, and that there was still the possibility of getting the old ‘vote for cloture, then vote against the bill if you need to’ and only having to go for 51 if you really wanted to, I don’t feel it was unreasonable to give it a real shot, which I don’t think they did. And good on you for giving your effort.

  245. 245
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: If you have an example of me bitching because he went for Snowe’s vote, produce it. Or STFU.

  246. 246
    Allison W. says:

    @Nick:

    Woo Olympia Snowe? Why didn’t Obama think of that?

    You people are unbelievable, you’re criticizing him for not doing what you criticized him for trying to do at the time?

    Ah yes. I recall Obama being mocked for trying to get “President Snowe’s” vote.

  247. 247
    Nick says:

    @John S.:

    To continue with the sports analogy, these are the people who go for a touchdown on 4th down in the red zone when they are down by two. Because winning by one point isn’t enough. You have to humiliate your opponent and rub it in their face in order for it to really count as a victory.

    Then when they don’t get the touchdown, they snipe at each other, trying to assign blame for whoever didn’t force them to settle for the field goal.

  248. 248
    John S. says:

    @Nobody Special:

    I make a living as an Art Director. And you came back because you’re a last word freak, not because you’re actually interested in a substantive debate.

  249. 249
    slag says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Frankly, those people are just masochists who crave the pain. They get off on feeling ignored. Paying attention to them on one thing just makes them complain about being ignored on another thing. It’s wearying.

    I actually don’t disagree with this. There are those people. And they are wearying.

    Maybe I’m an idealist, but I think there are more people who may not be “unhappy”, exactly, but who could use a little more to be enthusiastic about this election. OK. Technically, I know there are those people because those are all the people I know. And, quite frankly, another thing that gets wearying is trying to play cheerleader for those lazy asses.

    Honestly, I’m speaking on behalf of my own self-interest here. It’s hard to get people out to vote. It’s hard to get people to think about the big picture sometimes. And it’s even harder when someone who’s supposed to be representing the people you’re trying to get out to vote appears to be discounting their feelings out of hand. Right or wrong isn’t the deciding factor in this case. It’s just not super helpful. Not to me, anyway.

  250. 250
    Allison W. says:

    @PurpleGirl:

    Why aren’t these f”kers creating jobs?

    Did you get a list of the people at the benefit? how do you know what they are doing with all of their money? or whether they are creating jobs or not?

  251. 251
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NobodySpecial: We don’t know what discussions went on behind closed doors to try to move people on a variety of issues during the debate. Like you, I don’t know what would have happened if the public option had been pushed hard. It is my opinion, given what we know of the issues and the people involved, that this bill or something quite similar is the best thing that could have been passed in these circumstances. My concern was that this pushing too hard could have blown up the whole thing. I think that would have been a terrible mistake. As a result, this was an occasion to settle for half a loaf. On the tax issue coming up, I think Obama is well placed to play hardball and I will be disappointed if he does not.

  252. 252
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    At least you try to be clever in your comebacks, the others could learn something from you. You’re alright, Flip.

    @Allison W.:

    I don’t even know what you guys are arguing about. I think anybody who cares what some asshole politician says while doing his song and dance number for rich people is an idiot. Looking at the link, I think it’s amusing Obama’s framing himself as a “man of peace” given his Afghanistan bullshit, but this hardly seems that inflammatory.

    I just don’t like centrists.

  253. 253
    NobodySpecial says:

    @John S.: If I was interested in a substantive debate, you’re definitely not ideal material. I’d say that BoB gives better debate, Pancake too.

  254. 254
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Nick: Nick, I don’t wanna golden shower all over yer 69 with John S. but remember that conspiracy you were telling us about that controlled the world’s information?? John S. is one of them!

  255. 255
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: The tax thing should be a no-brainer. So why are Dems trying to run from it, and which ones?

    This is my bitch – it’s not ‘the left’ that’s running from Obama’s proposals. They may not like them, but for a different reason. It’s the ‘reasonable Dems’ that are providing cover for Blue Dogs to sink Obama’s agenda. It happened with the stimulus, when Snowe damaged it because Blue Dogs just couldn’t darn well vote for it. It happened with health care. Now it’s happening again with the tax issue. (Side note: Free shot for Nick here, because I remember what I wrote.)

    If idiots like Nick would take out half their vitriol against hippies on the people who actually are fucking with Obama’s game, they’d be a lot less irritating. Instead, they spend their time potshotting the left and making excuses for Blue Dogs.

  256. 256
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    If you have an example of me bitching because he went for Snowe’s vote, produce it. Or STFU

    Ok, you asked for it

    NobodySpecial
    @Nick:
    When your ‘help’ relies on the likes of Olympia Snowe, a person who has never shown the inclination to be the 60th vote on any piece of Democratic legislation ever, then you’re not helping, either.

    http://www.balloon-juice.com/2.....nt-1597331 Comment 75

    Google is not your friend

  257. 257
    Allison W. says:

    @Bob Loblaw:

    you don’t know what the argument is but you went ahead and wrote 2-3 paragraphs of nonsense in your reply to me anyway? reacting when you have not a clue of what was said is typical of some on the left.

  258. 258
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NobodySpecial: My bitch is at the “left” taking potshots at Obama rather than going after the Blue Dogs, etc. So there.

  259. 259
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: Heh, you go for the low-hanging fruit, just like I posted right above you. Good on you, dog.

  260. 260
    PurpleGirl says:

    @Allison W.: Because unemployment is still high. And I know the demographics of Greenwich CT. Can you pay $30,000 at clip for a dinner with the president? Do you know anyone who can do that? I used to work at a non-profit whose trustees could do that. If these people are investing their money, they ain’t doing it in the US. We need jobs.

  261. 261
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial: you must be humiliated.

  262. 262
    John S. says:

    @Nick:

    Wow, who’d have thunk Nobody Special wasn’t interested in a substantive debate AND was full of shit. Color me surprised.

    @JSF:

    Not to dissuade you from looking like more of a fool than you usually do, but if you knew the type of clients I did work for, we could all bask in the afterglow of your stupidity for months.

  263. 263
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Heh, I don’t think you can argue the ‘left’ doesn’t hate on Blue Dogs enough. And I don’t think you can blame some on the ‘left’ whose overriding preoccupation is civil liberties with being pissed at Obama. There’s some you can blame, sure, though.

    But funny – you never see the usual supects even posting how much they dislike Blue Dogs. Instead, you hear how that’s the Best We Can Do, So Don’t Argue.

  264. 264
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: Not at all, dude – right above your post, I pointed right to it and put bells on it and everything.

    I just wanted you to be RIGHT for once. Now you can be happy! 8)

  265. 265
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @John S.: Oh god, do we have to drag it out of you?

  266. 266
    John S. says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Which is pretty much my main gripe, too. Commence the circular firing squad while the Blue Dogs watch in delight.

  267. 267
    cat48 says:

    @slag:

    It’s hard to get people out to vote.

    I agree completely. It’s the most difficult, frustrating thing I’ve ever done.

  268. 268
    Nick says:

    To recap;

    NobodySpecial: on Sept 18.

    Of course, there’s no way you could woo a Snowe or Collins, either, who are in blue states where the public option polled even more strongly. Nooo. They never vote with Democrats.

    NobodySpecial: on Feb 23

    When your ‘help’ relies on the likes of Olympia Snowe, a person who has never shown the inclination to be the 60th vote on any piece of Democratic legislation ever, then you’re not helping, either.

    Democrats can do nothing to please people who keep changing the reason they’re upset.

  269. 269
    Corner Stone says:

    “Nothing can be done!”

  270. 270
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: Like I said, dude, I gave you a freebie, because you needed one desperately. I mean, you’ve been wrong virtually all this time about how the Center Right Surrounds This Nation, and Big Media Controls All, simply because the guy sitting in the White House blows your narrative all to hell. And you sit there pushing how Nothing Can Be Done, Ever, That Is Liberal, and yet things just keep happening.

  271. 271
    Nick says:

    @NobodySpecial: haha, that’s the most pathetic excuse I’ve ever heard.

    Wow, you really do feel like an ass.

  272. 272
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NobodySpecial: I know from my own situation that I just don’t expect anything other than shitty behavior from the Blue Dogs. Lieberman will be an ass simply because he can. I get upset at many of the attacks on Obama from the left because my aspirations are closer to theirs than those of the Blue Dogs. I see them as not being helpful or realistic and it tends to bother me.

  273. 273
    Corner Stone says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I blame you for this frumpy, Jane Hamsher obsessed masturbating, Cape Buffalo of stupidity infestation.
    Her dirty, sweat stained sweat pants are on you man.

  274. 274
    NobodySpecial says:

    @cat48: Eventually, you can wear them down, usually, especially if you offer to drive.

  275. 275
    SIA says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    They get off on feeling ignored. Paying attention to them on one thing just makes them complain about being ignored on another thing. It’s wearying. And there aren’t very many of them in the first place. So why don’t politicians reach out more to a fickle, mopey, angry, small group? Yes, it is very hard to figure.

    This is right. It is wearying, to never receive acknowledgement for good (but less than perfect) accomplishments.

  276. 276
    John S. says:

    @JSF:

    I’m not going into specifics, but the sectors we service the most are charities and non-profits, medical safety equipment manufacturers, consumer watchdog/advocate groups and aviation safety equipment manufacturers. Clearly, offering advertising services to these nefarious groups is ruining the world!

    I started my career working for scumbag corporations. I got out as soon as I could and I never looked back. My partner and I sort of took a Hippocratic oath of messaging, to do no harm to people consuming our products. I have been at it for more than seven years now.

    I’m not getting rich on Madison Avenue, but I can sleep at night.

  277. 277
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Nick: Then explain my post right above yours. I knew that comment was there. Hell, it’s the first thing you get when you google my name, BJ, and Snowe. I remember what I write.

    No, you just have been SO miserable. Now you’re happy. That’s good. 8D

  278. 278
    Corner Stone says:

    @John S.: Biting off the monumental grunting stupidity that is eemom probably isn’t the best career choice.
    But as you’ve shown you’re a real winner maybe you have nothing to worry about? Hmmmm, my little french toast with whip cream?

  279. 279
    Uncle Clarence Thomas says:

    @Bob Loblaw:

    And it’s Bob Loblaw For The Win!

    Game and thread over.

  280. 280
    slag says:

    @cat48: Not only that, but it makes you feel like a complete idiot sometimes (or it does me, anyway).

    Like you’ve put a Kick-Me label on your forehead. Especially after the people who you got out to vote last time voted in the people who…well…kind of kicked you.

  281. 281
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Even though you asked me twice, I think we both know who was at this fund raiser last night. And it wasn’t GG or JH.
    He was not chiding his $30K a plate audience, of that one thing I am pretty freakin sure.

  282. 282
    cat48 says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    I usually do that, too. The Economy is a bitch right now and the CBO’s figures are depressing so I understand the anger.

  283. 283
    Corner Stone says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I have never once called myself a “centrist.” Fuck centrists.

    Ok. How about “pragmatist”? Does that make it feel better?

  284. 284
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @Allison W.:

    Oh, it wasn’t nonsense. None of you can actually refute anything from the second paragraph, but we’ll ignore that for now.

    I don’t think you know what you’re arguing about either. I guess y’all just expect that some third party arbiter, perhaps like the Great Pumpkin of lore, will descend upon the world one day to anoint one of you the True Progressives, and that will be that. Oh, what a magical day that will be!

  285. 285
    eemom says:

    @Corner Stone:

    STILL no “unmalleable planks, ideals, and positions,” eh?

    Just more tiresome adolescent taunts.

    I think it is fair to conclude at this point that you really are just a frustrated, lonely, chickenshit blowhard who spends his time hurtling insults at strangers in cyberspace because no living human being would come within miles of you.

    As to whether you do it with a hand in your “pants” or not, who knows. Doubt you find anything in there if you do.

  286. 286
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Corner Stone:

    He was not chiding his $30K a plate audience, of that one thing I am pretty freakin sure.

    Prolly the wait staff.

    ETA: You know how bitter they are, clinging to their public option.

  287. 287
    cat48 says:

    @slag:

    Not only that, but it makes you feel like a complete idiot sometimes (or it does me, anyway).

    I so agree with you. I don’t even mention the damn Senate race because I live in SC. heh I have to laugh or I would cry.

  288. 288
    Corner Stone says:

    Ha! Fafblog, bitchez:

    We know that Barack Obama, in his heart of hearts, truly wants Real Change. We can tell this by examining the furrows of his brow as he squints meaningfully into the middle distance, by carefully measuring the sincerity-per-pixel count of his campaign posters, by reflecting on the inspirational Martin Luther King quotes he delicately intones before carpet-bombing an Afghan village. But we also know that despite his best efforts, Barack Obama can’t achieve Real Change, confounded as he is by such institutional barriers as Congress and the Pentagon and Barack Obama. We know, for example, that Barack Obama wants nothing less than a sweeping overhaul of America’s health care system, but has been hopelessly blocked at every turn by conservative Democrats like Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman and Barack Obama. And we know that Barack Obama did everything he could to oppose a trillion-dollar no-strings-attached bailout of a corrupt finance industry, but was helpless to stop it, boosted as it was by notorious corporate whore Barack Obama. And we know that Nobel Laureate Barack Obama is a devout lover of peace, but has been powerless to prevent the American military’s rampant bloodletting throughout the Muslim world, as the nation’s armed forces remain in the hands of that bloodthirsty warmonger Barack Obama.
    __
    And we know that although Barack Obama is an idealist, representing the very best and brightest of American Liberalism, he’s also a hard-nosed pragmatist, willing to compromise between extremes of Left and Right, between black and white, between war and more war. That’s why when the Left wanted to close Guantanamo and the Right wanted to double Guantanamo, Obama doubled Bagram instead. That’s why when the Left wanted to cut greenhouse gas emissions to 350 parts per million and the Right claimed global warming was an international Masonic conspiracy, Obama bombed a village in Pakistan. And that’s why when the Left wanted universal health care and the Right wanted hundreds of billions of dollars for Wall Street, a capital gains tax cut and a domestic spending freeze, Obama gave them hundreds of billions of dollars for Wall Street, a capital gains tax cut and a domestic spending freeze.
    __
    And we know that as disappointed as we might be in Barack Obama – in his little failings, in his petty slights, in his odd betrayals, in his unseemly habit of dancing naked through the streets of Oslo smeared with the blood and entrails of Afghan children – we also know that the alternative would be far worse. Why, with a Republican president, we might be at war with Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and possibly Iran, or facing some hideously draconian corporatist scheme to compel poor people to buy private insurance they can’t afford, with a government that not only excuses the torture regimes of the past but dramatically expands them while giving itself license to murder anyone it likes anywhere on the planet. With Barack Obama, on the other hand, we have all that plus a man who can sparkle wittily on late night television. Now, I think that has to be worth at least a couple thousand dead Muslims, don’t you?

  289. 289
    Corner Stone says:

    @eemom: I have a hard time “hurtling” anything, as most days it’s tough to get out of this wheelchair.

  290. 290
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Corner Stone: lmfao

  291. 291
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thing is, if they never complain, then no one feels any need to listen to them, either. Squeaky wheels get grease. We see that with the Teatards.

    Other thing is, like Abe Lincoln said about abolitionists: “They are nearer to me than the other side, in thought and sentiment, though bitterly hostile personally. They are utterly lawless…the unhandiest devils in the world to deal with…but after all, their faces are set Zionwards.” When the Tea Party talks, they espouse insane ideas about gold standards, blowing up the federal government, repealing the 14th, etc. When liberals bitch, it’s because they want health care for everyone as cheap as possible or because they want us to quit getting American kids killed for no good reason. Their pushing from the left is an actual positive.

  292. 292
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @slag:

    Maybe I’m an idealist, but I think there are more people who may not be “unhappy”, exactly, but who could use a little more to be enthusiastic about this election. […] It’s hard to get people out to vote. It’s hard to get people to think about the big picture sometimes. And it’s even harder when someone who’s supposed to be representing the people you’re trying to get out to vote appears to be discounting their feelings out of hand.

    Fair enough, but it seems to me that what keeps happening is that the people out there at the forefront of the Unhappiness Brigades keep telling the people behind them that Obama is discounting _them_. (That was the whole story of the “professional left” comment: actual members of the professional left preaching to the non-professionals who read them that _they_ were also being targeted, and _they_ should feel all insulted too.)

    There is a vanguard of disaffected people who have decided that what they believe is the True Left, and thus their gripes with Obama are about ideology and principle, and hence that the big problem is that Obama doesn’t care about liberal people. Every point of that is flawed, IMHO. I don’t think Kos/Hamsher/Greenwald are particularly liberal; I don’t think their gripes are about ideology; and I don’t think that Obama or his people sassing the dissatisfied is the same thing as being dismissive of liberals or liberal principles.

    To say that a crack about how Democrats tend to find fault and be dissatisfied — something that we all know is a hallmark of Democratic politics and has been for at least 40 years — must be about liberals, or about vocal liberals online, or about all liberals… that’s just going out of your way to resume an old complaint, and doing it in such a way that it precisely validates the premise of the crack.

  293. 293
    Bob Loblaw says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Corner Stone, that’s just dumb and uninformed.

    There isn’t any carpet bombing of Afghan villages. Air strikes in the region have been dramatically curtailed over the last two years under the McChrystal/Petraeus plan.

    The war effort is failing, but for very different reasons. This isn’t Vietnam.

  294. 294
    charles pierce says:

    Yeah, playing your supporters for laughs in front of a bunch of plutocrats has always worked. One Lieberman joke would have sufficed.
    Do I think people should vote for teabaggers?
    No.
    Does this guy need to knock it off?
    You bet.

  295. 295
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Corner Stone:

    He was not chiding his $30K a plate audience, of that one thing I am pretty freakin sure.

    Because rich people definitely wouldn’t be found among the ranks of people who complain about the too-slow progress towards liberal ideals. Arianna who?

  296. 296
    NobodySpecial says:

    To say that a crack about how Democrats tend to find fault and be dissatisfied—something that we all know is a hallmark of Democratic politics and has been for at least 40 years—must be about liberals, or about vocal liberals online, or about all liberals… that’s just going out of your way to resume an old complaint, and doing it in such a way that it precisely validates the premise of the crack.

    In fairness to those actually offended (as opposed to me, who just facepalms such a dumbass joke), when you provide specific examples like the public option, then people who supported the public option might have reason to feel they’re targeted. Like BTD said (and it’s one of the few times I’ve agreed with Armando since he went all Tacitus on us), it’s an own goal that he didn’t need to make.

  297. 297
    slag says:

    @cat48: Damn. You’re a rock. I’m lucky in that my Democratic senator does a reasonably good job representing the average state voter. I think I might just hide under my bed until after election time if I had your situation to face. Good for you for sticking it out! I’m impressed!

    Although I still haven’t figured out how we can seriously expand the coalition in non-election times. Election years being the life-sucking experience that they are and all.

    It’s kind of funny how liberals get derided for taking time off in between elections. Well…if elections were a little easier for liberals, maybe that wouldn’t be the case. Chicken, meet egg.

  298. 298
    NobodySpecial says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Arianna ain’t a progressive, or even a Democrat. Why do we insist on making her our Lanny Davis?

  299. 299
    Corner Stone says:

    @Bob Loblaw: No. Of course, you’re right. We wouldn’t do anything like that.
    Killing people 40 and 90 at a time is much more efficient than carpet bombing.

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    John S. says:

    Corner Stone, that’s just dumb and uninformed.

    That’s just Corner Stone.

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    Corner Stone says:

    @FlipYrWhig: Think you’re ranging a little far afield here man.

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    Corner Stone says:

    @John S.: You don’t know me! You don’t know me at all!!
    Waaa, whine, whinge, waaaaa.
    /John S.

    Dbag, at least come up with someone on your own instead of leeching off others.
    Fucking pathetic.

  303. 303
    slag says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    To say that a crack about how Democrats tend to find fault and be dissatisfied—something that we all know is a hallmark of Democratic politics and has been for at least 40 years—must be about liberals, or about vocal liberals online, or about all liberals… that’s just going out of your way to resume an old complaint, and doing it in such a way that it precisely validates the premise of the crack.

    First of all, at some point this “hallmark of Democratic politics” needs to go away if Democrats want to be more successful as a party. And rather than simply stating it as a given, one might want to consider where it comes from and address it from that angle. Especially if one does not want to exacerbate the problem that one is now being afflicted with.

    Second of all, I’m all about downplaying differences within the Democratic Party (the best possible outcome of said “crack”). But as I said before, you need to start by acknowledging those differences and maybe even approaching them with some humility first. And as I said before, I don’t know if that happened in this case, but it really doesn’t look like it did. I’m not angry, outraged, upset, or any other manner of hyperbolic expression you can think of about this. I’m just saying that I don’t think it was benign and I don’t think it was particularly helpful either. At least not in the world I live in.

  304. 304
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NobodySpecial: I know. We are pretty much all on the same side here. Pushing from the left is necessary, as is knowing when enough is enough and its time to make a deal.

  305. 305
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m just one of those guys who thinks that Democrats have been down so long (since a little before Reagan) that they really don’t have much of an idea of how to act from strength and how to project power. That leads to small thinking and incrementalism, because they’re terrified that if they go too far, they’ll fall out of power and never ever get it back ever ever again. Even with the evidence that we’re winning over the future largest ethnic block in America and the youth whose political opinions are generally hardened by the time they’re in their twenties by large margins, there’s a feeling that you better take the first deal, now, because there will never be a better one. I really dislike that, because all the trend lines show the GOP is doomed as it splinters apart and the demographics of the voting age bloc get worse and worse for them as they go along. We should be hastening their demise instead of treating them as the boogeyman.

  306. 306
    Corner Stone says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    We should be hastening their demise instead of treating them as the boogeyman.

    And that’s a little of what I’ve had more than enough of too. It’s like a lot of these defeatists are afraid of the center-right and right politicians/voters.

  307. 307
    Nick says:

    @slag:

    And rather than simply stating it as a given, one might want to consider where it comes from and address it from that angle.

    I do that all the time to nothing but scorn and mocking, because my opinion isn’t what the always-outraged left wants to be true.

    This happened because there are few true liberals in the country, the Democrats are forced to be the centrist party to the Republicans’ far right.

  308. 308
    angler says:

    John,

    I think you needed the extra rest, don’t feel guilty.

    And, oh yeah, thanks for bringing back the firbeagger threads! This one is proof positive that it never gets old. At #308 I’ve got nothing to add, but that shouldn’t stop me.

    Three thoughts for a discussion that treats Hamsher and Greenwald as some kind of ungrateful advance guard representing a tiny group of maladjusted and irrelevant elitists.

    First, who are you talking to when you do GOTV?!? (cause of course all of those bitching about Dem dissent killing us in 2010 are phoning and door knocking, right?)

    Second, if they have no constituency why do you give a damn?

    I’ve yet to find a Dem on my contact list who mentions either of these bloggers but several have said they ain’t happy about the first two years of Dem reform because it didn’t do enough. Don’t take my word for it, though, GOTV.

    Finally, if you are for Obama try not to sound like a PUMA. It wasn’t that long ago when the tone of this debate had Obama supporters fending off charges of insufficient fealty to the party and the center.

  309. 309
    Glenndacious Greenwaldian (formerly tim) says:

    @Bob Loblaw:

    A righteous rant of utter beauty and accuracy.

    Thank you, Bob

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  311. 311
    jmy says:

    If I recall correctly, Snowe was willing to vote for HCR if it had a triggered public option…The president considered it, & all hell broke loose w/ liberals, bashing that idea & bashing the president for even considering it. So we could have had a public option trigger in the legislation, yet we don’t have it or any public option.

  312. 312
    Corner Stone says:

    @jmy: yep. We’ll trigger that when Anna Nicole Smith loses 100 pounds.

  313. 313
    Nick says:

    @jmy:

    If I recall correctly, Snowe was willing to vote for HCR if it had a triggered public option…The president considered it, & all hell broke loose w/ liberals, bashing that idea & bashing the president for even considering it. So we could have had a public option trigger in the legislation, yet we don’t have it or any public option.

    If I remember correctly, the complaint was, it would never trigger, and I got laughed at when I said “so what, at least its there so a future Congress can pull the trigger themselves” or “having it there makes the repeal argument harder” or “at least we get this done now and move on rather than sitting around for three more months waiting for Joe Lieberman to come around”

    Instead having no public option at all was preferable, I guess.

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    Paula says:

    whoops, wrong thread

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