Ron Capps, in Foreign Policy, has a heartbreaking, deeply personal story about one of the most terrible prices “we” will be paying for the AfghanIraqistan fustercluck: “The New Lost Generation: Suicide rates for troops returning from Afghanistan and Iraq are out of control, and post-traumatic stress disorder is reaching epidemic proportions. But is the Pentagon willing to tally the true cost of war?”
… Rand Corp. now estimates that about 20 percent of returning veterans either have or will develop post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The suicide rate in the Army is out of control: During the first half of 2009, more American soldiers committed suicide than were killed in combat. In June, an average of one soldier a day committed suicide.
[…] __
We don’t yet know where the current balance between blood and mental wounds lies. Between 2002 and 2009, there were about 33,000 wounded in action in Iraq and Afghanistan. During that same period, about 4,700 troops were evacuated for mental-health reasons — just over 14 percent of all troops serving in theater. But this figure only counts those cases so dramatic that the soldiers were sent home from the war. Doctors always prefer to get soldiers back to their units rather than out of theater, and not everyone who is treated appears on the record. My doctor kept my treatment quiet to keep from tarnishing my record and to protect my Top Secret security clearance. In short, that 14 percent is just a fraction of the actual number of soldiers suffering.
[…] __
At the end of America’s involvement in the Vietnam War, the Army was traumatized. Rampant drug use, poor leadership, and severe racial problems threatened to overwhelm the entire military institution. Today, drug use is back, and young officers are leaving the Army at alarming rates. We haven’t descended to the dark days of the post-Vietnam era, but the stress of long, repeated deployments is dangerous — to both the military itself and families awaiting the return of loved ones. The fallout from Vietnam reverberated for decades; it was a long and hard period for the services and for the country. The coming reckoning will happen in an America where politics are blood sport, and where neither political party has recently covered itself in glory. Like war itself, it will be a grim, untidy business.
Do go read the whole article — I’m not excerpting much, because I don’t want to spoil the weight of it (or short the many included links, which are equally informative).
And if the sheer waste of human life and potential doesn’t ruin your mood, think back to the way actual combat vets like George McGovern and John Kerry who dared to run against the conventional-wisdom cheerleading were treated by the Fighting Hellmice of the 101st Chairborne. Every Af/Iraq vet who doesn’t support all wars, all the time is going to be attacked as a “head case”, a hopelessly damaged piece of human flotsam whose only utility would be as a silent icon of Our Sainted (Should’ve Been) Dead. Although I may just have a needlessly jaded opinion of Foreign Policy‘s general realpolitikal bias.
tofubo
you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave
a hearty fuck you to all that sent our men and women to afghanistan and irag and a heartless fuck you to all in congress that keep feeding the machine
stuckinred
Six years ago in his book, “Late Thoughts on and Old War”, Phil Beidler, Nam Vet and English prof at Alabama summed up his thoughts on this generation of warriors, “Don’t come home expecting anybody to remotely care”. We are too busy on our cell phones.”
bago
@stuckinred: In our defense, our cell-phones are pretty damn cool these days.
Bob Loblaw
The suicide figure excerpted only applies to the Iraq theater. Were it to be so that casualties in Afghanistan were so low otherwise.
I wonder when the moral equivalence between this latest Afghan misadventure will begin to take hold in the President’s base, as compared to other reckless escalations? To have to tell the armed services that, after four or five tours of duty, their work is still not done, that there is still another fight to lose instead. And even should you make it home, good luck with the whole job thing. Or keeping your house. Well, no wonder the rates keep going up in Iraq. I wonder how many more will be lost of the 50,000, the ones who are allegedly safe and sound as they train and advise the INA?
soonergrunt
@stuckinred:
There’s no real difference in that respect between us and you guys. When you guys came home, most people didn’t want to hear about it. When we come home, most people don’t want to hear about it. Which is OK on one level because who the hell wants to talk about that shit? Most people won’t understand, for one. If you tell them the stuff that really gets to you, they’d puke on your shoes. If you sanitize it, you come off sounding like a recruiting commercial.
The endless parade of people who believe that you are just dying to hear their opinion, whether online or in person, and regardless of their political outlook or their perception of your political outlook. This tends to lessen over time, but what makes anyone think that I’m interested in providing them with a bullet point for their next argument with Bob at the water cooler?
Most annoying question of all time==”Did you kill anyone?”
I mean, REALLY?
gnomedad
Dems should make a big deal about caring for returning soldiers. Let the Repukes run against that.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: Ex-fucking-zactly. The passage from Phil was about what he thought you guys would experience. I guess that’s pretty obvious since there were no cells when I came home!
I met a guy who had two sons serving in Afghanistan last year. One of them came home on leave and the dude insisted that the young man would love to talk to me. I met them at a joint down the block and it took one look in his eyes to see he wanted nothing to do with talking to me,or probably and one else, about that shit. I was as respectful as possible and then withdrew.
stuckinred
@gnomedad: You mean like when Bush and McCain fought the new GI Bill tooth and nail and then took credit for it?
Breezeblock
@gnomedad:
Don’t forget, the Republican party is the party that killed the healthcare bill for 9/11 first responders. So yes, they will be able to run against our returning soldiers, and pay little if no political price because their base is so unbelieveably fucking stupid and heartless.
And the band plays on…
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
I’ll read the article at some point, but this figure makes absolutely no sense. 14% of all of the troops serving in theater is a number a lot greater than 4,700. I think he means that mental health constituted 14% of all wounded in theater, as 4,700 is 14% of 33,000. That’s wrong, too; he says that 33,000 is the total number of wounded in action and the 4,700 is the number of troops evacuated, which would be compared to a smaller number of of wounded evacuated.
I really don’t know what he is saying.
Martin
@gnomedad: They’ve been trying. But the media debate is focused on much more serious policy matters – someone is trying to build a community center in NYC, and the first lady is taking too many vacations from her key job of being married to someone with work to do.
Ruckus
@soonergrunt:
Most annoying question of all time==”Did you kill anyone?”
When I was in the hospital for 2 months towards the end of my time in, it never occurred to me to ask that question. I didn’t need to and I had no desire to. The answer was obvious. Almost every one I met there was a Marine that served in Vietnam, and a number of them were pretty screwed up mentally. They were in a “safe haven”, among buddies, and they didn’t want to talk about any of it. They wanted to forget and absolutely could not. Not when awake, not when asleep, not even with some pretty strong drugs. Time and support is what it takes. Lots of both.
Bnut
@stuckinred:
I had Beidler when I was in school. He was the shit. He cares, for realz. Also, I tell people I killed lots of woman and children, but only the ugly ones. That usually shuts them up.
Bob Loblaw
@Bob Loblaw:
Never mind, I thought he said all of 2009, not just the first half of the year. Afghanistan casualties have only been skyrocketing in the last year.
stuckinred
@Ruckus: It’s civilians that do that. They somehow think that it’s somehow insightful to ask.
stuckinred
@Bnut: I emailed him after I read the book and he and I stay in touch a bit. I also got Balaban’s books and wrote to him, he too is the da bomb. The folks across the street had Phil at Bama as well and they think very highly of him too.
Hiram Taine
@Breezeblock: Took the words right off my fingertips..
soonergrunt
@Ruckus: I won’t claim to be the paragon of mental fitness, but I also don’t have as bad a time as some. In fact, I’m OK for the most part.
I just can’t see why anybody would want to know that. What is the point of that question?
You get the impression that some people want or expect to hear something like “yeah, I killed and raped me a bunch of rag-heads! It was fucking great! You wanna see my collection of ears?” and others want or expect to hear something like “Oh, God, forgive me! I murdered innocent children!”
It would be funny if it wasn’t for the sheer stupidity of it.
@Bnut:
I once told a college professor at OU who just would not let the question go that killing children was hard. Real hard. Perhaps the hardest thing I’d ever done…Because of the smaller target and them hiding behind their mothers.
I was asked to leave that class.
Ruckus
@stuckinred:
I get your point but I’m not sure it’s also a little bit of awe that someone could do something they can’t conceive themselves doing. They see the movies and think it must be like that.
And is case anyone is thinking I know first hand, I do not. I did not see combat. I only know from second hand stories. But if those stories are not real, they seem real to the people telling them, and only days and weeks later they are very, very fresh in those minds.
For some the problem is they don’t know who to trust any more. Their belief systems are completely blown apart and they haven’t got a clue on how to put them back together. For others the shear weight of what they had to do is more than they can endure. And for others the continuous stress is just overwhelming. These are the biggies that I can remember, I’m sure there is more.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
I can explain it. Most people, even the ones who act tough, really have no idea if they actually could kill someone. Deep down, they know it, too. They’re asking because they think that finding out that you, basically an average person otherwise, killed someone will tell them something about themselves.
Ruckus
@soonergrunt:
As you can see I was writing some more thoughts at the same time as you.
You said it better than my response, that’s the idea I was aiming for.
ETA Paragon of mental health. I like that. Don’t think anyone has ever applied that to me either.
soonergrunt
@Ruckus: Thanks. BTW, I’m fairly sure that nobody ever applied that title to me either, before or after.
The thing is, that most of us are, for the most part, OK. We’ve dealt with the stressess and the issues. Not always perfectly, but we are, in fact, functional members of society. I want my brothers who need help to get it, and I want the government that promised us that help and care on behalf of our country to uphold their promises. I want to know that it’s there for me if I ever need it.
soonergrunt
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): I see where you’re coming from with that. I guess I still don’t understand it. I know the answer to that question, and while I am not a better or worse person for it, I kinda wish I didn’t know the answer, you know?
stuckinred
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): That certainly is plausible but I’m not sure there is any generalizable answer. . .cept maybe that people are generally stupid.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: a little lower and don’t lead em so much
Ruckus
@soonergrunt:
I kinda wish I didn’t know the answer, you know?
I’ve never met anyone who knew the answer who didn’t have the same thought.
stuckinred
Speaking of stupid motherfuckers, Lindsay Graham today:
soonergrunt
@stuckinred: Here’s the thing for me.
I don’t know. I don’t know if the tide is turning this way or that. I know that most sources of information that come out of the region have no fucking clue what they’re on about and I know that people (including me) have an amazing capacity to self-deceive and see what they want.
I do know that there are hopeful signs and troublesome signs. I know we didn’t have the resources in 2006-2007 when I was there last. I don’t know if having them now will matter at this point.
I believe that anyone who claims to know what the current state of the war is and what is the correct path from here is either deluded or lying.
Ruckus
@stuckinred:
I’m sure you remember that you are just a number. You know a part number, just like a truck or a gun. You’re not a human being, just a part in the MIC. People like Graham are sociopaths. They have no regard for anyone but themselves. They are the people who never ask the question we have been discussing for 2 reasons. First they are never going to be in the situation to have to find out and well they are sociopaths. They are the perfect spokespeople for giant corps like the MIC and finance, they have no conscience, they lie easily, in fact it rolls off their tongues and they work relatively cheap.
stuckinred
@soonergrunt: I know you are correct.
stuckinred
@Ruckus:
All in all
you’re just another
brick in the Wall
Ruckus
@stuckinred:
Nice touch, geezer rock.
stuckinred
@Ruckus: That’s funny, my brother manages a Floyd cover band in LA and, for me, Floyd came too late!
Roger Moore
@Ruckus:
That may be the question that they’re really trying to ask; were you in combat or in support. It’s a bad way of asking the question, but I can imagine somebody asking it that way because they don’t realize how stupid it is.
soonergrunt
@Roger Moore: I have a friend who tells anybody who asked what he did that he ran washing machines seven days a week for a year. Everybody knows what it’s like to do laundry, so nobody asks anything else.
Ruckus
@Roger Moore:
No that’s not the question. The question is: Did you kill anyone? I was asked that directly. Cop friends get asked this question. People want to know when you carry a gun if you did what they think they would do, even though they don’t know. Decades of movies glorifying killing, both westerns and war flicks, along with basic human nature have made this a question that people want to know.
I saw Russian ships up pretty close and carried a gun and ammo at times, but never had the need nor opportunity to use it. I saw more action when I served with the shore patrol in the states for a while than any enemy combat.
mclaren
A lot of this comes down to technology. IEDs have grown immensely more sophisticated, using shaped charges and bent pieces of metal in the shrapnel that spin in flight when detonated, causing much more severe injuries.
One of the biggest issues now in Iraq/Afghanistan combat injuries is undiagnosed brain damage. Soldiers live through an IED detonation and seem to be okay. But then they start developing chronic migraines, they can’t concentrate, they can’t sleep more than an hour at a time, they go into periodic convulsions, they experience constant blurred vision. And when they’re given cognitive tests they can’t do simple arithmetic anymore.
These are signs of undiagnosed brain damage, and apparently it’s an epidemic among injured soldiers. To make matters worse, the Pentagon refuses to acknowledge it, and claims these brain-damaged soldiers are suffering from “personality disorders” to cheat them out of expensive long-term medical care at the VA.
This doesn’t affect just 5% of 10% of troops. One third of all troops come home with undiagnosed brain injuries, according to estimates. This is happening because better armor now lets soldiers live through trauma that would have killed them in previous wars.
The solution? Young people need to stop signing up to go to war. Then the Pentagon death machine will grind to a halt. Remember — this is how your leaders think of you:
Hypnos
I would never ask the kill question directly, but I would ask something generic, like “how was it”.
It is because war is something that has shaped and is shaping the lives of so many people, and the world itself, and it is also something I will never experience, something that is completely alien to anything that I’ll ever experience (I hope). Ruckus is probably right that many people ask because they want to find out something about themselves – they want to try to understand how they would behave in the same situation by having it described to them in detail by someone who lived. It is also morbid curiosity, probably.
But war is such a fundamental part of human culture, of every human civilization, and it has only been 60 years since it has become something most people in the Western world will never experience, so it is very hard to restrain the curiosity when you meet someone who has fought.
soonergrunt
@mclaren:
I like pie too.
soonergrunt
@Hypnos: The problem with that concept, that somebody can learn something about themselves by asking somebody else about their experience is that aach person’s experience is relatively unique. Also, without a common frame of reference, there’s no making somebody understand. You either get it or you don’t.