I have read a lot of posts recently responding to the fashionable notion that “the culture wars are over” — here, here, here, here.
This is one topic where I think a simplistic Balloon-Juice meme –courtesy of Lee Atwater — explains everything very succinctly:
You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.
By 2010, you’ve already cut taxes to the bone so you yell “soshulism” (which at its heart means free health care for lazy young bucks), you can’t talk about busing anymore so you yell “Muslim”. It’s not so complicated. And this (from Paul Waldman) is simply wrong:
But we should understand that tribalism and anti-government sentiment are two entirely different things. The fact that they are growing in volume at the same time doesn’t mean they’re one and the same, or even logically related.
A huge amount of anti-government sentiment is grounded in the idea that the government will take stuff from you and give it to someone outside your tribe, or that the government is secretly controlled by someone outside your tribe. Alaskans don’t complain about the free stuff the federal government gives them, they complain about health care they think is going to someone else. It’s the same everywhere.
The two sentiments aren’t the same but they’re damn sure related. Lee Atwater was right.
Linda Featheringill
Since a lot of the anti-government shouting takes place in the welfare states [receive more from the gov than they give in taxes], I think we ought to stop giving away federal goodies to ungrateful wretches.
[verb] them. They don’t deserve any better.
matoko_chan
meh.
there is no culture war. there is an evolution of culture event like glaciation or the extinction event at the K-T boundary.
conservatives have lost control of all the defining structures of contemporary american culture except talk radio and talk tv.
science, academe, media, art, sports, film, music, technology, literature all painted beautiful multi-ethnic and multi-racial blue.
A year ago Breitbart started Big Hollywood with the avowed intention of “taking culture back”. how did that work out for him?
it cant be done.
Conservatism is a zombie culture fueled by rage and denial.
Its dead already but the little second brains in its hips didnt get the message yet.
suzanne
So true. I have honestly not ever met a truly not-racist, not-sexist, not-homophobic libertarian or social conservative. I’m not surprised about that with the social conservatives, but I could potentially envision a libertarian who is active in social justice causes who just believes in extra-government solutions. The fact that I haven’t ever come across one, either in my private life or in politics in general, is what really convinced me that libertarianism is just a cover for craven selfishness.
jeffreyw
I don’t think much of it has to do so much with tribes as it does with teams. You pick a team and then it’s fuck the fuckin Yankees if you picked the Mets or the Sox-even if the Yanks are the best team in baseball.
Guster
Whenever I read that quote, I wonder what he thought about this part: “By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you. Backfires.”
Why? What did he think happened to change that?
jeffreyw
And do you front pagers never take time for a sammich?
DougJ
@jeffreyw:
I think it really is tribes, not teams. It’s not about hating people who chose to be Democrats, it’s about hating people who look different, speak differently, live in different areas.
matoko_chan
@jeffreyw: that would be much better with pepper salami.
…..damn you.
i dont get to eat until sunset.
>:(
Violet
So why is there so little hue and cry about the massive amount of money we give in foreign aid? I think it’s because people seriously have no clue how much we spend in foreign aid. But it’s the ultimate take from our tribe and give to another tribe.
Omnes Omnibus
@DougJ: At a fundamental level, I think you are right. I do think, however, that there is a special kind of hatred reserved for people they think should be in their tribe, but are not. It is akin to the hatred the wealthy felt for FDR as a “class traitor.”
matoko_chan
@Violet: i think its because the right believes it will make it easier for them to build a megachurch in Mecca.
its just nationalist missionariism.
the right have totally convolved god and country…..non-seperable.
DougJ
@Omnes Omnibus:
That’s certainly true, in general.
Mike in NC
Once the GOP is back in power they’ll be demanding the Postal Service issue a stamp with his face on it. Part of the “Champions of Freedom” series, no doubt.
Guster
@Violet: It’s an awful lot of money, and far less than 1% of the budget.
Jewish Steel
@matoko_chan:
Nicely put.
Conservative “culture” doesn’t make anything.
Kind of like terrestrial commercial radio, it becomes more and more hysterical not just to draw attention but also to prove to itself that it still exists.
Davis X. Machina
Relax, DougJ. You make us sound like Rwanda or something. We’re a civilized country. No Radio Mille Collines here.
Yet.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Who is that man, and why is he whistling as he walks past the graveyard?
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal
@Violet:
I’m not sure we’re living in the same country. I hear about this all the time. There are a lot of people who think we could balance the budget just by cutting foreign aid, and yell loudly that we should do just that. I agree that they seriously have no idea how much we spend in foreign aid, but they miss on the high side, not the low side.
jeffreyw
@DougJ: Can’t stretch an analogy too far, but tribes implies a blood bond that I just don’t see. The haters are from all walks of life, all ethnic groups. Going along with your friends and associates is a choice, too. You are choosing to agree.
Anne Laurie
@Violet:
Well, technically, while it’s “a huge amount of money” in dollars, it’s only a tiny fraction (~1%) of the U.S. budget. More importantly, Americans are in favor of foreign aid as long as it goes to their tribe — American Jews and Christianists think sending money to Israel is not only a great idea, but very patriotic, unlike the money sent to our second-biggest aid recipient, Egypt, which is just “wasted on ragheads”. And I’ve met plenty of hardcore social conservatives who think sending aid money to the proverbial Starving Children in places like Haiti and Pakistan is just “government theft”, but who would be quite willing to compromise their anti-contraceptive beliefs as long as those condoms were sent “to keep THEM from outbreeding US”. Sadly, I think the most successful U.S. aid efforts have been based on helping “our” tribe (like the Marshall Plan), because if it’s just to hurt “their” tribe (like the many “anti-communist” efforts from the 1950s-1980s) it always devolves into “why don’t we just bomb them, instead, or at least force them to convert to Real Capitalism(tm)?”
jeffreyw
A veggie fritatta-asparagus, onion, pepper, sweet corn, topped with gruyere and parmesan.
Violet
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal:
Why do you think this:
?
Is it because you think I think this:
?
Or that I’m one of these people:
?
Because I’m not. I know that in percentages our foreign aid money is small. But in actual dollar numbers it’s big. And the topic is spending money on people outside one’s “tribe.” And foreigners are not our tribe.
However, I think Anne Laurie has identified the real issue:
@Anne Laurie:
Yep. And there’s definitely more screaming or stringent requirements when the money goes to those ungrateful dark skinned people in places like Zambia or Haiti than when it goes to Israel.
debit
@jeffreyw: That does it. I hope Mrs. jeffreyw doesn’t mind, but I’m moving in.
Violet
@jeffreyw:
That looks delicious. I’m having a Hatch chile burger for dinner tonight. Think I’ll roast some asparagus on the bbq to go along with it. And have a salad.
CalD
Actually all politics is tribal. It’s all just a matter of who you consider to be part of your tribe. And that can depend very much on context, because we all belong to multiple tribes. For example: ideological progressives, progressive pragmatists, organized labor and blue dogs can all get together and form the Democratic tribe when the Republicans are at the gates. But the moment elections are over, our tribal loyalties shift and we break down into warring factions again.
matoko_chan
@jeffreyw: dude! they are all older white christians.
t jasper parnell
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal: This finding that “[i]n surveys, the median American thinks that we spend about 20 percent of the federal budget on foreign aid, and would like that amount reduced to about 10 percent–when, in fact, actual spending amounts to less than one percent” seems to indicate that you are, in fact, correct.
The next to last samurai
Debit: me too. Jeffrey, debit and i will arrive at dinnertime tomorrow.
matoko_chan
@Anne Laurie: well…there are two kinds of foreign aid….intra-tribal missionariism and extra-tribal bribes.
Mubarek gets bribes.
like Saddam usta get.
:)
jeffreyw
@matoko_chan: A lot are, many are not.
Nick
This is why stuff like single payer healthcare is so damn difficult in this country versus other countries. Because a lot of progressive social reform has to do with equality, and the richest and whitest and most powerful Americans don’t believe in equality and they convince other rich, other white, and other powerful Americans to agree with them.
Just ask any conservative white guy why they feel we need to stop unemployment benefits and he’ll say it’s because it gives people a reason not go look for a job, debate them and see how fast it turns into a “black people are lazy” conversation. Do the same with the mosque “all Muslims are terrorists,” immigration “Hispanics just come here to suck on the teat of the taxpayers” and even women “they’re getting back at men”
t jasper parnell
It’s a little blurry but home ground burgers, roasted peppers, freshly picked tomatoes, cold roasted beet salad, and fried taters from the other night.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sBtFHfPkAuE/TG_99bUdUVI/AAAAAAAAACY/ekpW8KA5yrM/s1600/102_0530.jpg
Violet
@The next to last samurai:
I’m joining you. Wanna carpool?
joe from Lowell
All I said what the Barack HUSSEIN Obama wanted to take money from “people like Joe the Plumber” and give it to “the welfare class.”
Why do YOU have to bring race into everything?
;-)
kdaug
@jeffreyw: Probably be polite not to post food pictures during Ramadan until nightfall.
jeffreyw
Bah, local hospital wants me to send them payment that State of IL insurance is late paying. It’s for some blood work.
Violet
@kdaug:
It’s night time in lots of places, including Saudi Arabia. Well, it’s after midnight there, so technically very early morning. But it’s still dark.
matoko_chan
@jeffreyw: admit it. most are.
debit
@kdaug: But nightfall where?
jeffreyw
@Violet: Mrs J is looking forward to the extra help. Bring your gardening gloves.
Alwhite
@Nick:
I understand one rich old white guy convincing another that he would be better off without government but it gauls me to no end that the old rich white guy as convinced 10s of thousands of working poor that they too would somehow are poor only because of the government.
Violet
@jeffreyw:
You could pay and then submit it to the insurance company, but you might never see your money again. Can you the insurance company to see why they are dragging their feet?
lacp
I’m surprised with all this tribal talk that nobody’s linked yet to Bill Whittle’s “Tribes,” my most favoritist wingnut post ever in the history of ever.
Violet
@jeffreyw:
Sign me up! Is it hot where you are? It’s miserable here, we’re under heat advisories every day, so I’m not in the garden much yet. I’d love to get my hands in the dirt.
Omnes Omnibus
@lacp: Did someone say the were two tribes?
Little Boots
that’s one of the big problems, we bitch about the pittance that is foreign aid, most of which is an excuse to build military bases and give money to Israel anyway, and ignore the huge honking military budget that sucks up most of the treasury. What the fuck is wrong with us? When did we get so stupid, and when did we decide that stupid is the only way to go?
jeffreyw
@matoko_chan: I am old and white, I picked a different team. You forget the point of the argument.
superdestroyer
It is humorous that the white progressives call conseratives racist when the leadership of the progressive movement is so overtly racist n their personal lives. The elites whites in NYC, DC, LA, SF will spend an enormous amount of money to ensure that their children to not go to schools with blacks or Hispanics and rarely interact with them.
The reason the push to fear blacks and Hispanics work so well is that the left fears blacks and Hispanics and work very hard to islate themselves from minorities.
Maybe when progressives start sending their own children to majority black and Hispanics public schools and work in places with large number of blacks and Hispanics, then the right will ease off the concerns about racist. However, as as the progressives whites keep talking about diversity while living very non-diverse lives, the right will continue to question the motives of the left.
jeffreyw
@Violet: I know why they are late paying, they don’t have any money.
Little Boots
Yeah, whatever superdestroyer. How about this? How about we stop settling for shitty schools all over the country? How about that idea? How about if we stop pretending to ourselves that leaving minorities in shitty schools is the real answer to our financial and budgetary problems? Would that work for you, fuckwit?
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: Wonder which tribe Keef Hartley was in?
lacp
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thanks, OO – I needed that.
kdaug
@debit: The US would probably be ok (this in ref to #8)
KG
@suzanne: as a non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobic libertarian, let me just say, “hi.”
I happen to be the sort of libertarian who believes there is a legitimate role of government in promoting liberty and equality. So I’m sure many libertarians would say I’m not really a libertarian, but fuck them.
kdaug
@Violet: yeah, ballpark half the world, by definition.
Roger Moore
@Violet:
No. It’s because you don’t seem to notice that there has been a big “hue and cry about the massive amount of money we give in foreign aid”. I’ve certainly heard people bitch and moan about it, mostly the same kind of people who bitch and moan about social programs that spend outside their tribe here in the USA. It may be a bit more muted than the complaints about young bucks eating T-bone, but that has to do with two main things:
1) Foreign aid is objectively less money than many other programs that tribalists object to. That pushes it down their list of complaints.
2) They hate the other tribes that live close to them more than they hate tribes that live on the far side of the globe. It’s far worse to give money to brown people here than it is to give it to people on the other side of the globe.
The next to last samurai
Carpool to jeffrey’s house leaves promptly, one hour before dinner. Be there. Aloha. Also too, anybody who thinks the culture wars are over must never have used the internets. There are a lot of kooks keeping themselves in a hysterical rage. I dont think our govt realizes how dangerous talk radio and fox are.
stuckinred
@The next to last samurai: I’d call for a slick to get to his compound.
matoko_chan
@jeffreyw: meh. venn diagram it.
older white christian != conservative
howevah….
conservative == older white christian
conservative is a subset of older white christian.
Josie
@Little Boots: I don’t understand your hostility towards Superdestroyer. All he/she is saying is that, if wealthy progressives would actually send their children to the same public schools that many minorities are forced to attend, those schools would become better and all would benefit. It’s an important point and is true in many different areas.
Omnes Omnibus
@matoko_chan: Not entirely.
stuckinred
@matoko_chan: venn do you vant it?
matoko_chan
@The next to last samurai: like i said, conservatism is a zombie culture fueled on rage.
its all ovah but the shouting…and sho, theres plenty of that.
:)
Little Boots
And just to veer toward the topic, yeah, Doug, you’re right, the culture wars are NEVER over. Ever. They are occasionally tamped down, usually in times of prosperity, but they are always simmering, ready to leap out at the first opportunity. Ask any Iraqi or Bosnian.
Jamie
I was at a local eating establishment and overheard a young man, who made his money flipping burgers who was distraught that the government would give his money to the undeserving, oblivious of the fact he didn’t pay income tax and the democrats wanted to make it easier for him to go to school. This country is coming apart at the seems due to an accumulation of cognitive dissonance.
Caramuru
This becomes evident when we look at the Tea Party support for the Arizona immigration law. The same people who throw hissy-fits about big government, death panels and concentration camps are more than happy to see the government asking citizens to show their papers, because they know the law targets people outside of their tribe.
Little Boots
And this all ties in nicely to the previous post, okay partial post, about Alaskan glibertarians. Simply put, they don’t see the government giving stuff to them as in any way shape or form socialism. Giving stuff to black people or non tribalists, omg, Marx Has Risen!
Or were you already there, Doug? In which case, yeah, exactly.
b-psycho
@KG: If it were plausible to have a gov’t that was funded entirely through quasi-Georgist measures (land value tax, plus a tax on financial speculation, w/ what’s left funding a citizen’s dividend), took the boot off of organized labor’s neck, completely deaded any business subsidies, didn’t engage in imperialism, and was so FLAMINGLY liberal on civil liberties that they made Glenn Greenwald look conservative…I’d take it & shut up.
But it’s not.
Little Boots
Superdestroyer, actually you may have a point, as josie points out. Sorry, kind of overreacted. Still think we could do better for ALL schools in this country, whether they have any white kids at all, but I think I overreacted to your comment.
BrianM
@suzanne: I’ve met one libertarian involved in social causes that way, for that reason. But just one.
Mnemosyne
@Josie:
Doesn’t the same thing hold true for conservatives who homeschool their children? I’m not sure why it’s always up to progressives to prop up society on our own. My conservative dad is always saying that if I want better public schools, I can pay my money towards them, but he shouldn’t have to.
Sorry, but I don’t think the current state of public schools is because wealthy progressives send their kids to private schools and it will all be magically fixed if they stop doing that.
suzanne
@KG:
Yeah, that would seem to qualify you as a textbook social liberal, rather than a libertarian. But whatever you call yourself, I’m glad to know that people like you exist. Now, if some other libertarians could start speaking up about social justice at even a fraction of the volume at which they shriek about property rights, I might change my opinion.
@matoko_chan:
Um, in case you haven’t noticed, they have an entirely separate cultural milieu just for them. The “Left Behind” books were ultra-best-sellers. They attended “The Passion of the Christ” in droves. “Veggie Tales” is a hugely popular kids cartoon. One could even consider the damn “Twilight” books and movies to be part of this, despite their crossover appeal. Go into any warehouse club store in any red state and look at the book table; at least a quarter of the inventory is devotionals and Christian-related merchandise. Meanwhile, attendance at institutions of the so-called “high arts” is dismal in comparison to that in other countries. I live in the fifth-largest metropolitan area in the country, and at least half of my friends have never once gone to a local museum or classical music performance. The cultural divide is real and is deepening, once one leaves New York or San Francisco.
Little Boots
I have this innocuous comment awaiting moderation. Not objecting, it’s not my web site and I really do think blog owners can do what they want, but I’m just curious, considering, well, the way i can be, and the actual post. Just seems like, why that?
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
It’s a question of (alleged) hypocrisy. The implication is that progressives who believe that public schools deserve decent funding should put their money where their mouths are by sending their kids to public schools. Meanwhile conservatives who believe that public schools corrupt children are putting their money where their mouths are by homeschooling.
I think any hypocrisy is more apparent than real. Most progressives are saying that our public schools should be great, not that they are great right now, and I don’t remember hearing any of them saying that parents shouldn’t be able to send their kids to private schools if they want. The progressives would only be hypocrites if they stopped caring about public schools after taking their kids out. IMO, as long as they vote for better public schools, it shouldn’t matter what they do with their own children.
Xecky Gilchrist
You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.”
Little did he know that by 2011 or so they’d be back to that.
Violet
@Roger Moore:
I don’t think there is a hue and cry because that would mean it would be approaching the level of screeching about the supposed mosque two blocks from the WTC site or something of that ilk. I listen to Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity on a fairly regular basis when I’m in the car during their shows (which is several times a week) and they’ve not had our expenditures on foreign aid as a huge talking point.
I’ve heard people bitch and moan about a lot of things that I wouldn’t call a hue and cry. A few people bitching does not a movement make.
superdestroyer
@Mnemosyne:
The first rule of leadership is to never ask other people to do something you would never do yourself. Yet, the left consistently ask the middle class and blue collar America to do things like give up educational opportunitites or put their children into bad schools that the progressive left would never do themselves.
The real question is can all schools be made into go schools and can all Americans be educated to an adequate level. The other question is whether black American or Latino America will be able to develop enough to contribute enough.
To the right, given the actions that progressives whites take in their personal lives, those on the right believe that progressives are talking about a world that progressives do not believe can ever really exist and are really using racial tensions to increase their own political power. The question for the right is what kind of world do progressives really believe they can achieve and much does it differ from what they publicly say.
KG
@suzanne: Thanks.
My take on it is that the ends of the spectrum aren’t “liberty” or “tyranny” as a lot of libertarians and some pseudo-libertarians on the conservative side like to phrase it. Rather, I see the ends of the spectrum being tyranny and anarchy (what Hamilton called license). I believe that liberty is the fulcrum that balances the two. Too far in either extreme, and the population suffers; properly balanced and the population thrives.
Things like education, infrastructure, and access to information are vitally important to liberty, in my mind. Same goes for things like anti-trust laws, consumer protection laws, and product liability laws. A liberal society, to me, is a fragile thing and can very easily slip into oligarchy if not properly defended.
I tend to explain myself as a Hamiltonian libertarian and a proponent of ordered liberty. But a lot of times, I will admit to simply being a libertine looking for a good time.
Xecky Gilchrist
Yet, the left consistently ask the middle class and blue collar America to do things like give up educational opportunitites or put their children into bad schools that the progressive left would never do themselves.
WTF? Show me “the left” demanding this of anyone.
superdestroyer
@Roger Moore:
The flip side is that the reluctance of the left to send their own children to schools with large numbers of blacks or Hispanics allows the left to support policies like forced busing that did nothing to improve schools but actually managed to destroy towns and neighborhoods.
The right believes that is the children of the white progressives were in the same schools as large numbers of blacks and Hispanics, that progressive elites would take a very different approach to education, welfare, crimes, affirmative action, and anti-discrimination laws.
Violet
@superdestroyer:
Ha. Tell that to half the bosses I’ve had. Plenty of CEOs out there making out like bandits all while asking their employees to do more with less. And then they get applauded for their leadership when the stock price rises.
asiangrrlMN
@The next to last samurai: I think jeffreyw. could open a restaurant and be very successful. I, for one, would make the trip at least once a month.
Benen has a hypothesis that Muslim is the worst thing to be right now, so the fact that more people who don’t like Obama think he’s Muslim is just because they are substituting Muslim for another word. Remember, ten years ago, liberal was a dirty word. In the past few years, it’s slowly become more acceptable, so the right has substituted sockulist for it. It’s all about code words and dog whistles to get essentially the same idea across: They are the other; they are evil; they need to be stamped out.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Oh look, superdestroyer has escaped from the Buttholdsworth Home for the Terminally Bewildered again.
Just a tip soupie: Stop walking through town wearing nothing but the hood of your Klavern drag and they’ll stop committing you for months at a time.
kay
@superdestroyer:
Conservatives consistently ignore the aspirational aspects of someone who supports public education, though.
You insist on looking at this as static, and unchanging, and it isn’t. Plenty of people went to solid public schools themselves and then send their children to elite schools. They aspire. I don’t know how you missed it. It’s one of the big American themes. Wealthy liberals could support public education while sending their own children to private schools, without any hypocrisy at all, because they want the system they relied on to be there for the next one up. The same is true for public colleges.
I think it’s a fundamental problem, best exemplified by Sarah Palin, during the 2008 election. She misunderstands rural, striving middle class parents if she imagines they don’t want their children to do better then they did. They do. There’s not a one of them that would sneer at their kid going to college. It’s weirdly patronizing, and it’s common among conservative elites.
Mnemosyne
@superdestroyer:
Wow, Republicans are pretty much the worst leaders ever, aren’t they? They’re the ultimate “do as we say, not as we do group,” especially given that they want to raise the tax burden on the middle class and decrease taxes even more for the rich. If they were real leaders, wouldn’t they be clamoring to pay their fair share?
Examples, please. The president doesn’t count, because the security nightmares involved with having the president’s kids attend a public school make it financially prohibitive, unless you really think having a squad of Secret Service agents monitoring the entire school 24/7 is a reasonable alternative to having them attend an easily securable private school.
lacp
“Then you yell ‘Soshulist, Muslim'”
“Then you win”
Atwater + Gandhi: What Could Go Wrong?
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne:
And oh yeah by the way the Obamas DID consider putting their kids into a public DC school. They had several rather high-profile meetings with Michelle Rhee the superintendent on that exact issue. But the security requirements were considered too disruptive and Sidwell Friends had them in place already. The choice wasn’t made lightly, and both Obamas will go on about public education for hours if you let them. Arne Duncan wasn’t chosen for his good looks.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
Good point. The argument from liberals isn’t that you should have to send your kids to crappy public schools. The argument is that public schools should be improved so that people who can’t afford to send their kids to private schools can still get a good education for them.
I went to Catholic school for grades 1-4 and public schools for the rest. I support public schools because I went to them and I know how good they can be if they’re not starved of funding.
kay
@superdestroyer:
It’s as if you never talk to actual people. I would bet you 100 dollars that if I spent 20 minutes with Michelle Obama talking about public schools she would tell me 1. she went to one, and 2. she hopes someone else can do as well as she did coming out of one.
Would she have gone to an elite private school at ten if her parents had the money? You betcha. Did she? Nope. She went to public school, made a lot of money, then sent her own kids up the ladder. That doesn’t mean she wants to PULL UP THE LADDER she just came up on.
She’s not looking at her children. She’s looking at her own story.
That’s not a hypocritical position. It’s aspirational, and it’s a big part of the American narrative.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne:
Minor amendment to your point: and that funding is spent well.
DougJ
@lacp:
That is very funny.
Linda Featheringill
@matoko_chan:
You might be right.
But let’s look at the numbers. I didn’t look anything up, so feel free to tweek my stats.
People aged 65 and older make up about 12.5% of the total population. If the overall population is about 309 million, that would make 38,625,000 older folks in the land. Now if people who descended from Europeans make up 55% of the population [not really sure about that number], we have 21,244,000 old white folks infesting the land [and I am one of those].
I don’t know how many teabaggers and other idiots we have, or even how many dummies agree with them, but I think I will go with the 18% who think that Obama is a Muslim [and also think that the sun goes around the earth]. I am trying to include the idiots and their supporters. That would leave 82% who don’t agree with these idiots. Or 17,420,000 old white people that don’t agree with the folks you passionately disagree with.
I did some rounding off and so probably some of the commentators on this blog will go into cardiac arrest from the shock of it all, but this is my point:
About 4 out of every 5 old white people in the land definitely do not agree with these idiots. And actually, probably 2 to 3 out of every 5 old white people you meet might agree with you.
That should give you some comfort. Also, you really can’t tell a book by its cover.
morzer
All I want from public schools is that they teach my hypothetical children all the kinky stuff Daddy doesn’t want to explain because he can’t remember most of it, he hasn’t had coffee yet, and anyway his back hurts. Is that really too much to ask?
kay
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t know why this is so hard for conservatives. Am I the only one that listens to the millions of people who talk about where they came from?
I went to a public college. I’m not funding it so my personal kids can attend, nor do I think I failed some test of my commitment if they happen to go private. I’m funding it because that’s how I came up, and someone I don’t know made sure it was there.
I’m grateful for that, and I intend to return the favor.
This is a common theme. I’m not all that generous. The place didn’t just appear when I strolled in the door. Someone else built it. All I know is that person or persons was not me.
Kryptik
@Mnemosyne:
Seriously. The point is that an income shouldn’t be a barrier to getting a decent education up to 12th grade, no matter who you are.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Wikerpeds says: Yep.
(And not to ruin the surprise but superdestroyer … Well, he probably jerks off to “Dr.” Laura’s n-word rant.)
Chyron HR
Look, guys, it’s very simple.
When a Republican ties a black man to his pickup truck and drags him a couple miles down the road, it’s not racist.
When a Democrat doesn’t send the hypothetical children he may not even have to a public school, it’s the most racist thing ever.
Jeez.
Mnemosyne
@Yutsano:
Very true. If it all gets spent on administrator salaries and fancy metal detectors, it doesn’t do any good.
Some public schools are requiring kids to bring their own toilet paper, FFS. If schools can’t even provide basic hygienic supplies, what kind of education are they providing?
asiangrrlMN
@Kryptik: Succinct and to the point. You got it in one.
@kay: Excellent point as well. EVERYONE’s kid should have the opportunity–not just the select few.
kay
@Mnemosyne:
I think it’s irrational. Because I have a car I’m a hypocrite if I vote to fund public transportation?
Ya know, I won’t use it, I won’t be actually on the bus, and “leadership” demands I ride the bus, or just shut up about funding public transportation?
It’s dumber than that, actually. It’s as if I rode the bus to my job to be able to afford the car, and then conservatives insisted I park the car and ride the bus, or stop voting to fund the hypocrisy bus, one or the other.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
That’s the thinking. Apparently supporting something that you yourself don’t use that benefits other people is now hypocrisy.
Emma
Violet: What massive amounts? The US gives the least foreign aid as a percentage of GDP. Yes, in absolute terms is a hell of a lot of money, but it’s a drop in the bucket, really. See here.
Oops. Never mind. Should read more comments before I say something.
Violet
Edit. Nevermind.
cckids
@jeffreyw: Ya, here in NV too. Docs, home-health companies, suppliers–all are dropping out of Medicaid like flies because they haven’t been paid in 3-6 MONTHS. This started when NV hired a private company to run Medicaid (because, you know, they’d be so much more efficient). It has gone downhill, fast, ever since.
xian
superdestroyer doesn’t seem to have stuck around to defend his half-baked “critique.”
parsimon
To the discussion between superdestroyer and others regarding leftists/liberals/progressives sending (or not sending) their children to public schools:
Might it help to distinguish between class and political persuasion? superdestroyer seems be assuming that the vast majority of leftists/liberals/progressives are of the upper middle class, enough so that they can afford to send their children to private schools, and will. That’s not really the case: plenty of leftists are flatly middle or lower middle class. superdestroyer is conflating leftists/progressives with elites. It’s not an unfamiliar trope.
The fact is that ‘elites,’ those who can and may well send their children to private schools, span the political spectrum.
I’d think it’s a mistake to grant superdestroyer’s argument its equation between leftists and elites in the first place.
mclaren
It’s interesting that high-speed has pulled the big economic hit men out of the walls. Like cockroaches, these poisonous creatures crawl out of the shadows to destroy proposed legislation that threatens the elites’ wealth and power by spewing out fake numbers and bogus charts.
In this case, the chief economic hit man assigned to destroy high-speed rail legislation in the Harvard economist Ed Glaeser. Turns out Glaeser got his PhD from the University of Chicago in 1992, which should ring some bells. That means he’s a Chicago School of Economics far right economics whore — remember them? They invented the tax-cuts-for-the-rich-are-great-for-the-economy scam. Milton Friedman, that whole crew.
So Glaeser did a series of hit pieces in the New York Times designed to destroy high-speed rail.
You can find them here:
July 28, 2009, New York Times Economix blog: “Is High-Speed Rail a Good Public Investment?” by Edward L. Glaeser.
August 4, 2009, New York Times Economix blog: “Running the Numbers on High-Speed Trains” by Edward L. Glaeser.
August 12, 2009, New York Times Economix blog: “How Big Are the Environmental Benefits of High-Speed Rail?” by Edward L. Glaeser.
Unfortunately, Glaeser’s hit pieces fall apart on examination. Like all highly-paid PhD whores, Glaeser plays fast and loose with his numbers to destroy the economic benefits of high-speed rail.
Source: “Why Glaeser Got It Wrong: Re-Running The Numbers On High Speed Rail,” Infrastructurist blog, 25 August 2009.
Ryan Avent also destroys Glaeser’s bogus numbers and Enron-like accounting, showing how yet another PhD whore testilies against good economic policy for hard cash. See “Glaeser Goes Out With a Whimper,” Ryan Avent, 19 August 2009.
But the single biggest and most obvious objection to econowhore Glaeser’s hit job on high-speed rail isn’t even mentioned.
By far the most important object is that Glaeser looks at high-speed rail purely from a monetary standpoint. But, as Umair Haque points out in his Bubble Generation blog, this is capitalism 1.0 and it’s destroyed the world economy. We can’t go on that way. Thinking in terms of money only lets BP drill without proper safety procedures. Thinking in terms of money only lets America continue it’s uncontrolled oil addiction without developed alternative forms of energy and transportation because “they’re just too expensive…right now.” Thinking in terms of money only lets U.S. companies offshore all the high-wage jobs until the U.S. economy gets hollowed out and collapses because there’s no longer a large enough middle class left to buy things.
We need high-speed rail regardless of whether it makes money or loses money because peak oil is rushing toward us like a ten-mile-tall tsunami. If we don’t develop alternative modes of mass transportation in America, we’re going to be in a world of hurt when oil hits $400 a barrel.
You have to wonder how many underage girls and how much coke and suitcaseshow many of cash the automobile industry and the oil industry gave Glaeser to write his series of hit pieces. Whatever they paid, they didn’t get their money’s worth.
Anne Laurie
@kay:
This should be engraved over the door of every public school in the country.
And if I got my way, also on the hide of every politician who votes to play stupid games with school funding because it’s not his constituents’ kids, and besides, charter schools, also Jeebus.
Anne Laurie
@mclaren: Why should they pay Gleaser, when he’d whore for them just as enthusiastically for nothing?
Which is not to say that he’s not ensconced in some cushy ‘think tank’ fellowship, just that most economic Straussians can be bought relatively cheaply & without resorting to extra-legal enticements.
Suffern ace
@parsimon: I agree with that. The problem with elites is that they act like elites. And they send those kids to private schools as those are, along with legacy, the best avenues to get into elite universities. Anyway, I don’t think much would change if they went to public schools. A lot would change in the long run, if progressive elites sent their children to state universities.
Elites of all sorts have failed. I wouldn’t mind taking steps to look closely at those elite processing instiutions and subject them to a little reform. From what I can tell, the problem with our country stem less from the poor performance but that the elite schools are so bad at producing elites.
Xenos
@Suffern ace: The systematic failure of elites is disturbing but probably should not be surprising. Like any of us, elite individuals have adapted and invested to what they think will be a successful career. Just like a lower middle class person who sinks their life savings into a home, and then freaks out when social change threatens the value of the home, elites invest in a career or a business and get very reactionary very quickly when that investment is threatened.
I spent a couple years feeling very out of sorts when I realized that the law degree I had invested in was not worth very much. In time I am finding new opportunities that I like a lot better than the career I might have thought myself as having deserved.
But for these elites who have succeeded in their careers in media, law, medicine, public administration, defense contracting, finance, and so on, they are clinging with their fingernails to the ancien regime. In many cases they know they are doomed, but are trying to squeeze a couple more bubble cycles out of the decrepit old system so they can make their nut and create a personal bubble of assets to provide for their children and grandchildren.
Given the current situation where most of the wealth and most of the power has concentrated in the top few percentage points of the population, the tipping point may be a long way away. If the political and economic troubles of 1998 can not dislodge the system and begin the process of adjustment and renewal, I dread to see what will eventually do it.
superdestroyer
@parsimon:
The leadership of the white progressives is overwhelmingly elite. Those elite progressives send their own children to private schools. Look at how the public schools in DC are 5% white. That the public schools in both NYC and Boston are 14% white. The public schools in Chicago are 9% white.
Al Gore sent his children to private school while he was a Senator. Nancy Pelosi sent all of her children to private school and it was not for security. Ruth Bader Ginberg’s daugher and grand daughter attend the same virtually all white private school. Joe Biden’s son attend a school that was 99% white.
Even Arne Duncan would not send his own children to DC public schools but moved to Arlington County and to the right neighborhood so that his children would be in schools are more than 50% white.
Look at how progressive support the University of Michigan in the Grutter and Gratz decision where the State of Michigan had separate and different admission standards for whites versus blacks and Hispanics. Look at how progressives in Seattle tried to implement a race based busing program for the public schools in a city where 1/3 of the students attend private schools including most of the leadership of the city.
Look at how progressives sued a poor district in MIssissippi because white students were allows to transfer from the school that was 80% black to the school that was 40% black.
Progressives cannot image what it is like to be the white kid in a school that is 80% black because they have never been in such a situation and they would never allow their own children to end up in the same situation.
If progressives want to earn the support of the right, then the right should be permitted to have schools similar to those of the progressives instead of the horrible, non-learning environments that exist today.
Frank
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal:
And these are the same people that also want to keep, if not increase, the already high amount of aid we give to Israel.
They are also the same people that want to lower taxes, but still keep defense spending at least at the current levels ( we already spend as much on our military as the rest of the world combined).
I always get a laugh at these people. They think they can run our country based on some bumper ticker, yet the facts are about as opposite as they claim it is.
Somerville
superdestroyer – does he truly think his ‘logic’ is destroying anything?
All “progressives” are sending their kids to elite, private schools? and the poor conservatives must deal with attending schools where they are in the minority?
Either he is totally clueless about America’s elite schools and the background of most of their students OR he is willing to post nonsense. Does he really think that all of those private schools are controlled by some secret progressive elite that stops the admission of deserving kids from conservative (white) families?
The question might be asked: Why are there schools where 80% of the students are of a race that is only 12% of America’s population?
Frank
@superdestroyer:
If right-wingers want to earn the support of progressives, then the progressives should be permitted to have health insurance similar to those of the right instead of the useless system we have today.
You do realize that most progressives go to the same school as the right do. And you do realize the elites in both parties go to the Ivy League schools. Last time I checked both Bushies went to Yale. Are you saying you will somehow spend tax payer money to allow all progressives this opportunity?
superdestroyer
@Somerville:
Do you really think that are many Republicans at Sidwell Friends, the Dalton School, UC Lab School?
Even the middle class white kids who are in the minority at Berkley High School have had their science labs taken away since not enough blacks and Hispanics were taking the class and the school district would rather spend the funds on ESL and remedial training.
How many white progressives have their children in the publi schools at Walthall County School District? (look up the Supreme Court ruling on school transfers there.
My guess is that the students at Roxbury Latin School in Boston have never meet a Republicans and that everyone one of them would call themselves progressives. Of course, the student body at Roxbury Latin School is over 80% white so it is easy form them to support education and social policies that they will never have to experience.
superdestroyer
@Frank:
I have always assumed that the Ivy leagues are probably 70% Democrats, 20% greens, and maybe 10% conservatives. That is about how the party registration of the faculty breaks down.
It is one of the reasons that the U.S will soon be a one party state. There is no talent left in the Republican Party. If an ambitious 20-something is living in a coastal urban area and interested in politics, that 20-something will be a Democrat and since they are white and upper class, they will be a progressive. Soon the Republicans will not be able to recruit candidates for most races and thus politics will be about the Democratic primary and filling the rare open seat.
There is already no place in politics for fiscal conservatives and there will soon be no place for social conservatives or for libertarians.
The progressive politics of the future will be about massive government spending and how it will be funded given the demographics of the U.S.
Jason
@Xecky Gilchrist: Zombie Lee Atwater is clearly trampling on Laura Schlesinger’s foist amendment rights, here.
Jason
@superdestroyer:
Not that I think that sentence is accurate, or even makes a coherent point about US universities, but: faculty, whatever their political party, work alongside other people in the contemporary university, particularly administration and a very large student body. They don’t just run around doing whatever the hell it is they wish. You should try to understand that the political complexion of the university is really a lot harder to pin down than the your personal effort perceiving (or projecting, or whatever it is you’re doing) tendentious behavior in “the Ivy League” professoriate, because there are an awful lot of people who work at university for a living. And they’d really prefer critiques of their livelihood to be based on something resembling fact.
Mnemosyne
I find it fascinating that apparently superdestroyer has never heard of Andover, Groton, or Dartmouth, which I assure you are not even close to being majority liberal.
And let’s not even get into Rick Santorum’s $100,000 fraud of accepting Pennsylvania money to have his kids do cyber-school. I guess that’s okay since Nancy Pelosi paid for her kids to go to Catholic school.
Frank
@superdestroyer:
I don’t know about that. There were a ton of so called fiscal conservatives in the GOP who had zero problem spending $750 billion in Iraq. As I recall, EVERY Republican voted for the war. In addition, every tea bagger I have met over the last year has also indicated that the Iraq war was the right thing to do etc.
Both parties want big government spending. The only thing they differ on is what to spend it on.
parsimon
@superdestroyer:
I’m not sure what to make of these statements. What’s the direction of causation you see here? Why will the ambitious coastal 20-something be a Democrat (and, allegedly, a progressive)? Are you suggesting that he or she will make this party choice in a craven manner because that’s the only way to get ahead? Are you suggesting that he or she has been brainwashed by schooling?
In any event, it’s certainly not the case that private schools are overrun by liberals. With respect to your first remark in 112 upthread, the leadership of white conservatives is also overwhelmingly elite. That would be because it takes money (and connections) to secure office.
As a bit of a sidebar: there is actually talent out there in the Republican party. Their problem is that the party overall is foundering for its unwillingness to attend to the reality of 21st century geopolitical and socioeconomic needs. It can’t seem to figure out how to govern effectively.
superdestroyer
@Frank:
There is some portion of the Republican Party that would like to limit spending. However, there is no portion of the Democratic Party who ever wants to limit spending. Every portion of the Democratic Party wants to expand spending because it will increase their power. Find a Democratic who is against increasing taxes to fund ever expanding government and you will find a very rare politicians.
The real question is as the U.S. becomes a country that is majority non-whites and as the poorest portion of the population breed at a much higher rate than the richest who will create the wealth to pay the taxes. If you look at the future as represented by current day Los Angeles County, there will not be enough tax payers who fund the massive entitlements that will exist in the future.
Many on the right know this but are unable to talk about it. Thus, many on the right are stuck in a political non-man’s land where they realize that they (middle class, private sector employed whites), are on their way to total irrelevance and will be irrelevant to politics and governance.
parsimon
There are quite a few on the left who would like to limit spending in the area of defense.
To the second paragraph of superdestroyer’s comment: this is a world-wide phenomenon. What do you think should be done to address the increasing proportion of the world’s population that is poor? This is something that liberals are very concerned about. Join the conversation.
N.B. Ditching them, telling them to fend for themselves, is not an option.
b-psycho
@superdestroyer:
…poor white people don’t exist?
Frank
@superdestroyer:
Which portion of the GOP wants to limit spending? As I mentioned before, ALL Republicans in Congress were fine with spending a whopping $750 billion on a dumb, wasteful Iraq war.
And again, I have not met a single tea bagger who thought the Iraq war was a bad idea.
One of the reasons I left the GOP was because they were all talk when it came to fiscal conservatism. Their record between 2000-2008 was dreadful.
superdestroyer
@Frank:
The Republicans are no longer relevant to politics in the U.S. because the Bush clan, Hastert, and Frist refused to be conservative and decided to spend too much. However, the Republicans were voted out of power, never to return to power because they refuse to control spending.
However, the Democrats will never be voted out of office no matter how much they spend or how high they raise taxes on the top few percent of earners. The entire paradigm of politics in to spend as much money on as many people while taxing as few people as possible. As the government begin to consume higher percentages of the GDP, the real question is much can the economy take and what will be the effects on the private sector.
If you look at California today, no matter how bad the economy gets, how taxes go, or how big government gets, the core groups of the Democratic Party will keep voting for them. Thus, the U.S. will be a one party state.
superdestroyer
@b-psycho:
The percentage of whites that are poor is smaller than the portion of blacks or whites that are poor. In addition, the white birth rate is below replacement.
As the U.S. becomes majority Hispanic around 2060, the real question for the U.S. is how will it have the social spending of Sweden with the population of Mexico. Will a majority Hispanic population be able to produce the economic output to pay the taxes and fund the government. If you look at current day Central and South America, the U.S. will not be able to fund the government.
thus, what happens when the U.S. of tomorrow becomes like the Brazil of today?