America.gov

I got this email from one of my sisters:

So, I have been watching them leaving Iraq on tv and went to the US Embassy in Iraq website, just to have a look around. From there, I went to the US propaganda website, america.gov. OMG it’s so sad to read with what’s been going on. It’s just like “we like you, we like Muslims, we have Muslims here and they are FINE, they are doing VERY WELL and thriving and not at all marginalized and look at all these pictures of them: happy and praying.” It says, “offering a place for everyone.”

Here’s the quiz on the front page:

Where is the largest mosque in the United States?

* A. Dearborn, Michigan
* B. Miami
* C. New York

Then there’s this:

20 August 2010
Off to Find America, Mosque by Mosque
Two New Yorkers take to the road for Ramadan

Washington — For Ramadan, Aman Ali and Bassam Tariq are touring Muslim America. They are fasting their way across 30 states and celebrating iftars in 30 mosques. They are driving 12,000 miles (19,300 kilometers) to get closer to their faith. And they are having a great time. Ali, 26, an Indian American, and Tariq, 23, a Pakistani American, are buddies in New York. A year ago, they said, they were praying at a mosque with a big crowd on the first day of Ramadan and came up with the idea of spending the holy month visiting a different mosque each day — 30 mosques in 30 days. “In New York City, there’s over 800,000 Muslims. If you type my address on Google, you can find 162 mosques in a five-mile radius,” Ali said. “And so we’re like, ‘Hey, let’s try it.’”

And this:

Mr. Gingrich, the former House speaker and a potential 2012 presidential candidate, said in a Fox News interview that “Nazis don’t have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust museum in Washington,” a comment that drew criticism for appearing to equate those proposing the Islamic center with Nazis.
Asked about the view that such remarks could fuel radicalism, Mr. Gingrich sent an e-mail response on Friday that did not directly address his critics but said that “Americans must learn to tell the truth about radical Islamists while being supportive of and inclusive of moderate Muslims who live in the modern world, respect women’s rights, reject medieval punishment and defend American laws and the American Constitution.” He added that he believed “it is possible to be a deeply religious Muslim and a patriotic American.”
Muqtedar Khan, an associate professor of political science at the University of Delaware, said he was not sure the Islamic center dispute alone would radicalize anyone. But he said it was “demoralizing” for Muslims like him who defend the United States as an open and tolerant society.
“For the first time, anti-Islamic rhetoric has gone mainstream,” he said. “What this really does is weaken the moderates and undermine their credibility.”






95 replies
  1. 1
    Shalimar says:

    “Vote Democrat-Almost half of our elected officials aren’t xenophobic bigots.”

  2. 2

    Nazis don’t have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust museum in Washington

    Actually, they do. They can’t post a billboard but they can get a permit and stand around holding signs. Because this is America, asshole.

    Americans must learn to tell the truth about radical Islamists

    Yeah, Newtie? Don’t know how to say this but your team had eight years to get the word out. If America didn’t learn the truth then, it’s because you all really suck.

    respect women’s rights, reject medieval punishment and defend American laws and the American Constitution

    Newt Gingrich is a radical Muslim?

    No seriously, is it me or is he suggesting certain American citizens, due to their religion, have to prove they really are ReaLAMEricans.

  3. 3
  4. 4
    Sly says:

    Are you suggesting that the American right, because they are myopic, boorish, and self-entitled cretins, puts short-term political gain over the vital interests of the nation ?

    Perish the thought.

  5. 5
    burnspbesq says:

    The parallels to how my Irish ancestors were treated in the mid-19th Century are painfully obvious.

    America is a slow learner.

  6. 6
    kay says:

    @Sly:

    “it is possible to be a deeply religious Muslim and a patriotic American.”

    Imagine that phrase coming out of your mouth, being that arrogant.

    “It is possible….” with his, pompous self-important determinative tone and dramatic phrasing. He’s repulsive.

  7. 7
    Cacti says:

    Unless you are a WASP, at some point, you will be demonized by the majority in the United States.

  8. 8
    Michael says:

    Conservative white “men” love to be a bunch of terrified, craven, hysterical little bitches.

  9. 9
    Ash Can says:

    @kay:

    Imagine that phrase coming out of your mouth, being that arrogant.

    Imagine that phrase with the word “Jew” or “Baptist” or (as actually happened when JFK was elected) “Catholic” in the place of “Muslim.”

  10. 10
    Cacti says:

    @burnspbesq:

    The Irish, Italians, Chinese, Jews, Germans, Japanese, Latinos, etc.

    Xenophobia is American as apple pie.

  11. 11
    Gina says:

    @Michael: I find it behooves me to use the descriptor “pants-wetting armchair warriors” and variations on that theme whenever things get heated in online exchanges with wingnut relatives and acquaintances, but I need to keep things fresh. That was stolen from JC, so now I’m stealing “terrified, craven, hysterical little bitches” from you. Thanks!

  12. 12
    kay says:

    @Ash Can:

    Watch him when he’s getting ready to make a Pronouncement, mixed in with all the other lies and blather.
    He drops his chin and deepens his voice.
    It’s like a cartoon of “I am now making a statement”.

  13. 13
    MTiffany says:

    ‘[Gingrich] added that he believed “it is possible to be a deeply religious Muslim and a patriotic American.”’
    Coming from the asshole that thinks being a deeply religious Christian is synonymous with being a “patriotic ‘murrikkkan.”

  14. 14
    DPirate says:

    “What this really does is weaken the moderates and undermine their credibility.”

    Lol, how ridiculous. You can see here all that matters to him.

  15. 15
    gnomedad says:

    Well, america.gov has been taken over by the Sekrit Mooslim, so it’s only to be expected that it’s not properly enlisted in the War on Raghead Terror.

  16. 16
    Ash Can says:

    @DPirate: ?

    (You do realize you were citing Muqtedar Khan and not Newt Gingrich, right?)

  17. 17
    amk says:

    Well, this dipshit seems to be following at least one muslim belief – in terms of marriage and having multiple wives.

  18. 18

    Newt Gingrich proves the First Amendment (every idiot can say what the hell they want) every goddamned day with his stupid bullshit. And yet the media keep giving him a platform to spew nonsense. It’s TOO EARLY on a Saturday, Kay!

  19. 19
    Alwhite says:

    it is possible to be a Conservative and a patriotic American.

  20. 20

    @Alwhite:
    It is possible to be a Republican and a patriotic American.

  21. 21

    @Alwhite:
    it is possible to be a Conservative and a patriotic nationalistic American.

    ftfy

  22. 22
    El Cid says:

    The modern conservative movement sure does like to haul out its Nazi symbolism in accusing others, while strongly backing policies and attitudes that have a bit more to do with that early 20th century fascism than their Founding Father Fetishism.

  23. 23
    Alwhite says:

    The Wa Post has an article today about Obama’s Christianity and how he very actively seeks Christian spiritual guidance while not making a big deal out of it. It was fine until I saw this:

    Hunter is the pastor of Northland Church in Orlando Fla.,
    also advised Obama’s predecessor George W. Bush”

    Maybe it just my Bush derangement syndrome but that made me throw up in my mouth a little. I hope the God that Boy Blunder kept invoking as his guidance did not speak to him via Rev Hunter.

  24. 24
    Alwhite says:

    @The Grand Panjandrum:
    I debated that wording but too many “conservatives” today want to disclaim the Rs.
    @arguingwithsignposts:
    No, it seems that these days they are all nationalist in the jingo vein. I see that as nationalistic but not patriotic.

  25. 25

    @Alwhite:
    I’m suspicious of any pastor from Orlando, just because of the high Southern Baptist ratio in Florida.

  26. 26
    El Cid says:

    If you want to check out US government foreign oriented broadcasts, there’s always the Voice of America.

    Not only do they broadcast in dozens of local languages, they also broadcast in “Special English”, a slower, simplified version.

    On the US’ official broadcaster, you get a history of how Teddy Roosevelt took on the big cartel businesses, in “Special English”*.

    When you’re broadcasting to foreign, particularly 3rd world nations, you can’t just spin the same narcissistic, nationalist shit that we listen to here.

    If you want an audience, you have to give people who don’t have fairy views of the US and US policy a reason to listen.

    *If only the TeaTards could be reached by speaking more slowly and via a basic vocabulary, which would probably still be too many words compared to their 20 magic words such as “big gubmit,” “the taxes,” “soshullist,” “Constushun,” etc.).

  27. 27
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    “It is possible to avoid serving your country and still be patriotic.”

    There are all sorts of fun ways to make this sentence annoying.

  28. 28
    PurpleGirl says:

    “Nazis don’t have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust museum in Washington,” a comment that drew criticism for appearing to equate those proposing the Islamic center with Nazis.

    I guess Gingrich doesn’t know about the National Socialist Party of America march in Skokie, Illinois in 1982 and the fight which ensued when first proposed in 1977 and ended up at the Supreme Court. The ACLU represented the NSPA in the fight.

    I think Dearborn, Michigan has the largest mosque in the US.

  29. 29
    matoko_chan says:

    shukran for posting this Kay.
    i can’t read those guys until after sunset because they talk about delicious food at all the different mosques.
    :)
    like i told FW, the problem between muslims and christians is not the idea of Jesus. it is proselytization.
    we dont care if you want to believe in the Jesus godhead…you are all people of the book too. but we care a lot that you want to make us believe it.
    christians think it is their right to proselytize, muslims think it is their right not to be proselytized.
    Because America has freedom of speech, anyone can proselytize here. But in islamic countries christian proselytization is illegal. so while muslims can build mosques in America, christians cannot build churches in Mecca or ship bibles to Lahore.
    The other big problem between christians and muslims is that most christian Americans seem to think OBL launched 911 as part of a spontaneous global takeover by Islam. It was more like “will you fucking stop coming here and trying to meddle and proselytize and prop dictators on us!”.
    We particularily loathe the christians that are always telling us to ‘reform’ Islam. You called up OBL and the rest of these demons all by your bigselves, you deal with them.

  30. 30
    Honus says:

    @burnspbesq: or African Americans any time over the past 300 years.

  31. 31
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cacti: Even if you are a WASP, you might be liberal, gay, or otherwise a member of a despised group.

  32. 32
    matoko_chan says:

    And all America has been doing in Iraq and Afghanistan for nearly a decade is making more reavers and building a few schools and trying to repair the infrastructure we leveled back to the stone age in Gulf II, that lying WEC retard Bush told us Saddam had ‘neglected’ into ruin.
    bullshytt.
    one out of every 200 Iraqi citizens died in OIF….and they are still dying.
    its going to be a long time before Iraqis think kindly of America.

  33. 33

    @matoko_chan:

    Because America has freedom of speech, anyone can proselytize here. But in islamic countries christian proselytization is illegal. so while muslims can build mosques in America, christians cannot build churches in Mecca or ship bibles to Lahore.

    No, you idiot. The whole thing about proselytization is premised on freedom of religion, NOT freedom of speech. The *practice* of religion for some Christians requires proselytization (not saying that’s right). Get your FA rights in order before you go spouting your crap about countries you don’t even live in (i.e., in the middle east).

  34. 34
    Cat Lady says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    Just add ….in bed to the end of everything that the pig face says. It redeems you for the time you wasted reading it.

  35. 35

    @arguingwithsignposts:
    Just to add to my point – the free speech and free press rights were specifically geared toward political speech (as was the peaceable assembly clause), which is why they were separated from the two prongs of the religion sections of the First Amendment.

  36. 36
    El Cid says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: The latest prejudicial Christianist movement forgets, like most, that the most important initial impulse for freeing religion from government. That European national predilection for interfering in and repressing divergent religious groups. They seem to think it’s always the other way, and think it would be better if their religion formally influenced government.

  37. 37
    Alwhite says:

    @matoko_chan:

    Oh sure – like we should treat Islamic countries better than every other country we have fucked over in the last 175 years! We’ll get on that just as soon as we can educate American’s on the concept of ‘blow-back’

    I suggest they look up the lyrics of “We’re the Cops Of the World” by Phil Ochs so they can learn their place.

  38. 38

    @El Cid:
    Yes, that fork of fundamentalism has truly screwed us for a while.

  39. 39
    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    The practice of religion for some Christians requires proselytization

    yup. but that is illegal in islamic countries, because the practice of Islam requires that we be free from christian proselytization, eg islamic jurisprudence. The Caliphate had freedom of religion….jews and christians were citizens. Jews and christians are citizens in islamic countries today. Christians can’t proselytize tho.
    That is the real source of christian animosity to mosques in the US–they can’t build a megachurch in Mecca.
    American freedom of speech protects proselytization, not freedom of religion.

  40. 40
    matoko_chan says:

    @Alwhite: well..that is why other countries cheered 911.
    America is the biggest bully on the playground and OBL finally popped him in the nads.

  41. 41

    @matoko_chan:

    American freedom of speech protects proselytization, not freedom of religion.

    Bullshit. Go back to your U.S. Con Law class before you start with this shit again.

    There are some Western ideals that aren’t necessarily bad.

  42. 42
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @matoko_chan:

    American freedom of speech protects proselytization, not freedom of religion.

    Sorry, ASP is correct on this one. As a rule of thumb, if it involves religion, the religion bits of the First Amendment probably apply.

  43. 43
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @matoko_chan: Which other countries?

  44. 44
    Remember November says:

    @kay:

    Sounds like Bill O’Reilly lunchtime convo in Harlem.

  45. 45
    Remember November says:

    @matoko_chan:
    It’s pretty much 1st Amendment Part Deux. GO back and re-read. Maybe, like Palin you’ll get your sheepskin on the fifth go-around.

  46. 46
    matoko_chan says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: all of them, secretly. :)
    my iranian friend said that the rest of the world sees America as a gigantic maw, gobbling up all the resources it can.
    @arguingwithsignposts: see? you can’t escape that good ol westernculture chauvinism. that is what fucked America up in Iraq and Af-Pak.
    your culture might be THEORETICALLY or MORALLY superior, but it is not superior in practice. Islam is EVOLUTIONARILY superior in situ, because it is immunized to proselytization.

  47. 47

    @matoko_chan:

    your culture might be THEORETICALLY or MORALLY superior, but it is not superior in practice. Islam is EVOLUTIONARILY superior in situ, because it is immunized to proselytization.

    Dammit, it’s immunized with a gun, you fucking nitwit, which is *exactly* what the fucking constitutional framers were guarding against. It’s not Islam that’s guiding all those states you’re pointing to. It’s bullets and blood.

    And just because it’s “immunized” doesn’t make it evolutionarily superior.

    So immunize all you want, and you can hop off the U.S. system any time.

    ETA: “see? you can’t escape that good ol westernculture chauvinism. that is what fucked America up in Iraq and Af-Pak.” Well, neo-con bullshit ideology, which included a healthy dose of chauvinism did fuck us up in Irafpak, which is neither here nor there wrt your bullshit “immunization” hypoth.

  48. 48
    matoko_chan says:

    @Remember November:

    1st Amendment Part Deux.

    it doesnt matter. proselytization cant happen in islamic states, because Islam is immunized against it. it can happen in the US because of freedom of speech…Neo-nazis can proselytize, the New Atheists can proselytize. we tried to proselytize western-style democracy in Iraq. it can’t be done THERE.
    the 1st Amendment doesn’t apply to Iraq and Afghanistan.

  49. 49

    @matoko_chan:

    it can happen in the US because of freedom of speech.

    Not only are you immunized against proselytization, you’re immunized against FACTUAL, LEGAL EVIDENCE to the contrary. So I guess you’re evolutionarily superior as an idiot.

    I am done here.

  50. 50
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @matoko_chan: Bullshit.
    @matoko_chan:

    the 1st Amendment doesn’t apply to Iraq and Afghanistan.

    No shit, Sherlock.

  51. 51

    That is the real source of christian animosity to mosques in the US—they can’t build a megachurch in Mecca.
    American freedom of speech protects proselytization, not freedom of religion.

    One, these two sentences have nothing to do with one another. Two:

    Amendment I – Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

  52. 52
    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: Originally there was the CSS of Judaism, and the pagans. Christianity evolved proselytization and preaching as strats to increase reps and converts…one had to be BORN jewish, but it was easy to BECOME christian. This was a powerful strategy. So when al-Islam came on the scene, it evolved counter-strats against proselytization.
    al-Islam absorbed the congregants of christianity and judaism with the inclusive doctrine of the People of the Book, coopted the sacred texts, and all the prophets of both older religions. Laws against intermarrige, apostasy, and forbidding christian proselytizing (jews dont proselytize) were immunization against christianity and judaism.

    And just because it’s “immunized” doesn’t make it evolutionarily superior.

    well….it does. if the counter-strategy works.

    A CSS is a strategy such that, if all members of a population adopt it, then no mutant strategy can invade. — Maynard Smith, Evolution and the Theory of Games

    Iraq is 97% muslim. Afghanistan is 99.7% muslim. Pakistan is 97% muslim. Turkey is 98.6% muslim. Saud is 100% muslim (wallah!).
    from the CIA factbook.
    so yes, in MENA, Islam is evolutionarily superior.

  53. 53

    @matoko_chan:

    one had to be BORN jewish, but it was easy to BECOME christian.

    No, idiot. Again, you are factually incorrect.

  54. 54
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: You’ve seen “Chinatown,” right? Remember the last line.

  55. 55

    @matoko_chan: What the flaming hell does this have to do with 1st Am rights in the U.S.? Can you answer that question? Can you?

  56. 56
    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: why is that wrong? i mean….now you can marry-in or convert…but originally didnt one have to have matriarchial lineage to be a jew?

  57. 57
    matoko_chan says:

    @kommrade reproductive vigor: im saying since neo-nazis and the New Atheists can proselytize, that proselytization is a free speech right, not a religious right.
    Polygamy is a religious right of Mormon fundamentalists(YFZ) but they dont get to practice it.

  58. 58

    @matoko_chan:

    but originally didnt one have to have matriarchial lineage to be a jew?

    phrasing that in the form of a question says a lot.

  59. 59

    @matoko_chan: Preventing Mormons from participating in The Wife of the Month club is arguably a violation of their 1st Am. rights. What’s your point?

  60. 60
    matoko_chan says:

    @kommrade reproductive vigor: proselytization is a freedom of speech right, not a religious right….
    because if christian freedom to proselytize is a religious right, muslim freedom from christian proselytization is also a religious right.

  61. 61

    @matoko_chan:

    because if christian freedom to proselytize is a religious right, muslim freedom from christian proselytization is also a religious right.

    Logic fail.

    Here’s a thought. They could just say “no.”

  62. 62
    PurpleGirl says:

    @matoko_chan: Marrying a Jew doesn’t make you a Jew, you have to convert formally, that is learn about it and declare a desire to live a Jewish life. There is a formal process for the conversion.

  63. 63

    @PurpleGirl:
    Woah! Slow down here with your “facts” and “evidence” and shit. Let m_c absorb it all first. ;)

  64. 64
    PurpleGirl says:

    @PurpleGirl: Further, depending on the specific form of Judaism, there is still matrilineal descent for children, unless you are a convert. A girlfriend of mine had an orthodox conversion because she wanted no question ever about any children she might have and their status as Jews.

  65. 65
    matoko_chan says:

    @PurpleGirl: oh, sry. of course there is conversion process, im sorry if i wasn’t clear. i should have explained better. muslimahs cant out-marry, ditto jewesses..their intendeds have to convert.
    i always thought that was a clever strat…bind the uteruses to the CSS.

  66. 66
    PurpleGirl says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: LOL. What, you think that was too much for one comment. My next statement ended up being separate only because I’m having trouble this morning trying to edit comments.

  67. 67
    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: but if proselytization is a religious freedom then they can’t say no, right?
    it is the conflict of two religious freedoms then.
    so in islamic states muslims enforce their freedom of religion right not to be proselytized?

  68. 68
    Shalimar says:

    @matoko_chan:

    Islam is EVOLUTIONARILY superior

    And the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is evolutionarily superior to all of them, taking the best of all mythologies and leaving out the worst. Big fucking deal.

  69. 69

    @matoko_chan:

    but if proselytization is a religious freedom then they can’t say no, right?

    FSM, you are an idiot. Read that statement back to yourself.

    Just because a car salesman tries to sell me a car doesn’t mean I can’t say “no.”

    If you ask me, all this legal protection against having other people try to convert you is the ultimate cop-out. A wanker way to avoid having to defend yourself against other ideas. But what do I know, I’m a westerner. We came up with that whole “marketplace of ideas” shit.

  70. 70

    @matoko_chan:

    oh, sry. of course there is conversion process, im sorry if i wasn’t clear.

    @matoko_chan:

    one had to be BORN jewish, but it was easy to BECOME christian.

    Hmmm. I think you were pretty damned clear in that statement.

  71. 71
    matoko_chan says:

    @Shalimar: well it is a big fucking deal, because we JUST LOST IN IRAQ and WE ARE LOSING IN AF-PAK because the Bush Doctrine and COIN are just proselytizing western-style democracy.
    and al-Islam is immune to proselytization in situ.
    I guess 6000 dead soldiers, 150000 dead indigenous muslims and a trillion taxpayer dollars FOR NOTHING is not a BFD to you.

  72. 72
    Chad N Freude says:

    Immunization = Pasteur was a Muslim.
    Evolution in situ = Darwin was a Muslim.

    I am as ignorant of Muslim attitudes toward immunization and evolution as Matoko_Chan is of the historic definition of who is a Jew (hint: Ruth, yes, the Biblical Ruth and ancestor of David, was a convert. Conversion offers a way for a woman to become a Jew and validate the Jewishness of her offspring. Men convert also too. Oh, and Jews don’t tell non-Jews “You should convert;” they don’t proselytize.)

    But I digress. Does Muslim teaching accept immunization against disease, and does it accept Evolution?

  73. 73
    someguy says:

    @matoko_chan:

    i should have explained better. muslimahs cant out-marry

    Actually, you can’t leave either. For a good chunk of the fundamentalists, if you leave, you are supposed to be killed. Ayan Hirsi Ali isn’t in trouble for being critical of Islam, she’s under various death sentences because she left and went Christian or maybe atheist.

    I can respect that, actually. It’s honest and admirable for its honesty, if not for its humanity (or lack thereof). The western religions can’t bring themselves to express their hatred for everybody who doesn’t agree with their precise version of religion; they just put it in terms like, “well, your choice, but you’re choosing Hell you know.” Muslims just immanentize that little personal eschaton for the ex-believers, with a fair number apparently preferring a death sentence for people who leave. Not what I’d choose for myself, but respectable in the same way Bushido is.

    They’re a lot like political conservatives in that respect – kill the apostates! Ask David Frum about it.

  74. 74
    Chad N Freude says:

    @PurpleGirl: And it involves bathing. And if you’re a man . . . Oy!

  75. 75
    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: ?
    i was referrin’ to the origins of the CSSs.
    4000 years ago one had to born a jew. they didnt outmarry, they took female slaves.

  76. 76
    Kryptik says:

    Huh. I missed you linking to the NYT story on my scan of the front page, Kay. Nice on ya.

    But…yeah, I find myself depressed that the whole anti-islamic hysteria is being mainstreamed, at the expensive of what little political capital we have in the Middle East, simply because a whole lotta goddamned idiots can’t tell the difference between a terrorist and a peaceful Muslim, or simply refuse to believe there is a Muslim who isn’t secretly plotting to kill every single Christian he finds in the middle of watching American Idol or Iron Man.

    Christ weeps.

  77. 77
    matoko_chan says:

    @someguy: punishment for apostasy was an evolved counter-strat to protect against proselytization.
    AHA is a toxic person loathed by muslimahs everywhere.
    again, you know very little about al-Islam. AHA’s constituency is middle-aged white guys that believe her bullshytt.
    why do you care anyways?
    yours is better for you, mine is better for me.
    we just don’t want your fucking proselytizing.
    Big White Christian Bwana go home….with your tail tucked between your legs.
    :)

  78. 78

    @matoko_chan:
    Hey, big muslimah bwana, where exactly do you live again?

  79. 79
    Chad N Freude says:

    @matoko_chan: Ruth was a slave, true, but she converted and married Boaz. I suppose you could say that was not outmarriage by Boaz, but Ruth didn’t have to be born a Jew.

  80. 80

    @matoko_chan:

    4000 years ago one had to born a jew. they didnt outmarry, they took female slaves.

    Again, fact fail.

    Turn to Me , and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other (Isa 45:22).

    That’s OT conversion material for ya.

  81. 81
    Shalimar says:

    @matoko_chan: You blame it on proselytization, I blame it on military adventurism. We have no business meddling in other countries, but that is what happens when you are up to something like 48% of total world military expenditures. You have the temptation to do something with that power even though there is no real enemy to use it on*.

    *The exception being the initial Afghanistan invasion. Get in, topple the Taliban and replace it with something semi-stable, bring the leaders of Al Qaeda to justice, then get out. They obviously messed up the last few parts of that and we’re still stuck there as a result, but we at least had a good reason for that war to begin with.

  82. 82
    matoko_chan says:

    @Shalimar: no, it was absolutely proselytizing. “imposing democracy” requires terraforming culture with force of arms…that is what we did in Japan. genocide/invasion/occupation/reconstruction.
    we are actually rather good at that.

    Bush Doctrine:the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a potential or perceived threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate; a policy of spreading democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating terrorism;

    population-centric COIN is just the Bush Doctrine cut down for villages.
    Both are attempts to “stand-up/implant/proselytize western-style democracy”.
    Nation-building.
    the problem is that when muslims are empowered to vote democratically they just vote for shariah.

  83. 83

    @matoko_chan:

    the problem is that when muslims are empowered to vote democratically they just vote for shariah.

    Does that include the women? Just curious.

    ETA: and exactly how many states in MENA are allowing muslims to vote democratically in legitimate elections? Again, just curious, because I don’t know the figures.

  84. 84
    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: was that the practice of judaism 4000 years ago?
    i think it was ingroup tribal mating as a reproductive strategy with some bride capture.
    im talking about culturally stable strategies that evolved in the tigris/euphrates valley, not modern judaism.

  85. 85

    @matoko_chan:

    was that the practice of judaism 4000 years ago?
    i think it was ingroup tribal mating as a reproductive strategy with some bride capture.

    Well, it’s from their book. You’d have to ask them. Or point to some other original documents/sources that show otherwise. I’m just saying that there was a theological justification for allowing gentiles into the “in” group prior to Christianity.

    For clarity’s sake, I’m an agnostic (with half of a theology degree), although the faux scientific game theory crap you’re arguing here is quickly pushing me toward the atheist camp.

  86. 86
    Nick says:

    @Shalimar:

    “Vote Democrat-Almost half of our elected officials aren’t xenophobic bigots.”

    in America, that’s something to be proud of. When the so called “liberal blogfather” is xenophobic bigot, then you know that’s something to be proud of.

  87. 87
    b-psycho says:

    @matoko_chan:

    the problem is that when muslims are empowered to vote democratically they just vote for shariah.

    If you’re right then that’s one thing we have in common with majority-muslim countries. Our majority pisses on the concept of individual liberty in the name of the man in the sky too.

    By all means, if they want to vote themselves into theocracy, they can…feel free. I completely oppose US imperialism & could care less what the rest of the world wants to do.

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    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts and b-psycho : you are talking about theory. i am talking about practice. im not making a judgement on western culture…..i live here! im just saying that it is impossible to proselytize western-style democracy in MENA for a variety of reasons. it seems like we could have saved a whole lot of blood and treasure if we had admitted that 7 or 8 years ago.
    they already have a theocracy. it is not possible for us to change that by proselytizing/implanting/standing-up westernstyle democracy.
    the deciders were blinded by western culture chauvinism.
    a trillion dollars, 150k dead muslims and 6000 dead american soldiers later, are we ready to acknowledge the facts?

  89. 89
    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    I’m an agnostic (with half of a theology degree)

    i don’t actually care. yours is better for you, mine is better for me.
    just don’t taze proselytize meh, bro!

    Q: why should xian rights to proselytize their religion in America get more weight than muslim rights not be proselytized?
    ANS: freedom of speech, not freedom of religion. all religions are equal in America, right?

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    b-psycho says:

    @matoko_chan:

    If it were up to me, nobody would proselytize. Not because of threat of force if they did, but because they’d be smart enough to realize that ones personal faith is, well, personal, and no one else could possibly understand it. By default, they’d come to see “how ’bout you try MY belief system, eh?” as an insult.

  91. 91
    matoko_chan says:

    @b-psycho: i whole heartedly agree with that. proselytizing is disrespectful.
    yours is better for you, mine is better for me.

    “Beware of confining yourself to a particular belief and denying all else, for much good would elude you—indeed, the knowledge of reality would elude you. Be in yourself a matter for all forms of belief, for God is too vast and tremendous to be restricted to one belief rather than another.”– Ibn Arabi

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    matoko_chan says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    Does that include the women?

    yes.
    i would have to research the number of states.
    Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are four i know of.

  93. 93
    DougW says:

    Newtie doesn’t respect woman’s rights, much as he’d like to claim that mantle. Anyone who wants to restrict a woman’s right to control her bodily functions (i.e. birth control, morning after pill, post rape pill and or abortion) isn’t really on the side of the angels. Going after genital mutilation is fine, but differentiating between the two is disingenuous at best, and sheer hypocrisy that one might expect from the mighty newt.

  94. 94
    CalD says:

    __

    Mr. Gingrich, the former House speaker and a potential 2012 presidential candidate, said in a Fox News interview that “Nazis don’t have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust museum in Washington,” a comment that drew criticism for appearing to equate those proposing the Islamic center with Nazis.

    Without going into how wrong that statement is on how many levels, I’m pretty sure it’s also factually incorrect. If they could find a billboard company with a property in the area that was willing to do it, I really don’t believe they could they could legally be stopped; any more than you can stop the Ku Klux Klan from marching pretty much anywhere they want to — including places where atrocities took place during the civil rights movement. Newt should know that. He’s from Georgia.

  95. 95
    Paula says:

    This is sickening and approaching scary. These people are marginalizing Muslims. I am not a historian but it beginning to sound like how the Nazis began rounding up the Jews, by first marginalizing and demeaning them so that what came next is acceptable.

    How long until someone takes a Muslim’s life? When will our “leaders” take a bold stand against this type of fear-mongering? When will America take a bold stand?

    My biggest fear is that I am in the minority.

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