Last month the Senate education committee held what is expected to be the first in a series of hearings on the growth and risks of for-profit higher education. The hearing, which was stacked with critics of for-profit colleges, came a week after the education committee of the House of Representatives held a hearing focused on accreditors’ oversight of online learning. “We have a responsibility to ensure that taxpayer dollars are being spent wisely, and that for-profit colleges are serving students, not just shareholders,” said Sen. Tom Harkin, chairman of the Senate committee, in his opening remarks. Shown the 15-year default data for for-profits after the hearing, he appeared taken aback. “Whoa,” he said.
Community colleges have a high default rate too, 31% compared to 40% in for-profits, but a higher percentage of for-profit students need loans, and the loans are bigger:
Only 10 percent of community-college students took out federal Stafford loans—the most common type of federal education loan—in the 2007-8 academic year, and most borrowed less than $10,000, according to the College Board. At for-profit colleges, 88 percent of students took out Stafford loans, and nearly 20 percent of associate-degree recipients graduated with more than $30,000 in debt. Those borrowing rates reflect the higher cost of attending a for-profit college. In the 2009-10 academic year, the average for-profit institution charged $14,174 in tuition and fees, according to the College Board, and the average community college only $2,544.”I think you’re looking at very different numbers,” Ms. Mellow said. “They’re numbers that for-profit colleges do not want us to look at.”
I’m completely sympathetic to the adult-learner/retraining group, which is where for-profits are directing marketing, because I was one. I attended a series of community colleges part time, then a university part time, then law school, combined with minimum wage jobs and interrupted by a long stint in the Postal Service.
At the time I was doing all that, there were few for-profit “options” and little or no marketing directed to “non traditional students”. There’s a community college 25 miles from where I’m sitting, and I live in the middle of nowhere. Reading this, I’m grateful I didn’t have a for-profit “option”, and I’m not clear why a growing for-profit higher education sector is any improvement on the public community college route I took.
If we needed more capacity in higher education or certificate programs for what looks to be endless cycles of worker displacement and then retraining, why didn’t we build on the existing public (or private) non-profit system?
More here
Via
Tom Hilton
Well, if the for-profit education doesn’t work out all that well, there are always for-profit prisons. It’s a win-win!
Pangloss
My impression is the for-profits tend to take advantage of people that have very few relatives with experience going to college. In other words, first generation college students.
Violet
Because in the wingnut world in which we all live, private=good, public=bad. If someone can make a profit, even better!
Pangloss
DeVry currently has a market capitalization of $3.8 billion. That pays for a whole lot of marketing and focus groups.
JGabriel
Kay @ Top:
It’s not, as far as I know. When we were hiring in IT (the field I used to work in), listing education at for-profit colleges was generally looked at askance, unless it was for getting some kind of Microsoft, Cisco, or other recognized corporate certification.
That’s in NYC though. The norms might be different elsewhere. I don’t know.
.
Erik
I believe the technical term is “diploma mill”, which I guess puts me in the same boat as #2 and #5.
Amanda in the South Bay
I don’t think I’m that old (30) but I’m pursuing a computer science degree through the good old fashioned community college route, mostly because even with the post 9/11Gi Bill going to San Jose State, for example, would cause me to have go take out more loans or go part time and drag it the hell out.
Part of the appeal of for profit schools is a bachelors degree whereas my cheap ass is only going to get an AA from DeAnza College here in Apple ville.
Let’s face it, for many people community colleges have a bad rap- the perception being that they are good for training auto mechanics, but not for anything “cool”
Which is obviously not the case, but as it was said earlier the for profits target a less sophisticated audience. And most importantly they come armed with lots more money than community colleges.
Of coursrbo biased, I think private non profit schools are a waste compared to public universities.
dmsilev
@Erik: No, diploma mills are something even worse. Most of the for-profit colleges at least make a semblance of an attempt to provide an education; a diploma mill is an out and out scam. “Send us money, and we’ll send you right back a piece of paper that isn’t actually worth anything”.
dms
Zifnab
@Violet: This.
beltane
@Pangloss: I think you’re right. Late night TV is full of ads for these so-called colleges, right alongside the ads for work-at-home/get rich quick scams, get cash for your gold jewelery scams, and computer financing scams. The ads are clearly targeted at those who don’t have a clue, and contain the warning that “credits earned at X University are not transferable to other institutions.”
In an economy dominated by predatory feasting on the hopes and fears of the poor, the for-profit education sector is right up there in the vileness category.
mantis
It’s not.
It’s not that there was a demand for more capacity and higher education failed to meet that demand. For-profit education, with it’s “easy money” marketing, stay at home model, and very low standards for curriculum, faculty, and academic progress (if your check clears, you graduate), created a new market. Now some of that market should have gone the route you took–community colleges (most of which now have online components) to certification or four-year programs–but the rest is basically no different from the market for late night get-rich-quick schemes (like those pimped by JD Hayworth).
For-profit education does great harm to the reputation of higher education as a whole, the students it bilks, and national loan programs.
Zifnab
@JGabriel:
That’s been my experience as well. A degree from a community college isn’t great, but it’s something. A degree from a for-profit university makes my employers automatically suspect of education quality.
A degree from a city or state college is a big green light.
jah
Frontline had a good program on this topic. Basically once a for-profit college (online or not) gets accreditation from the regional authority, their students are eligible for federal student aid. Then the goal shifts to driving enrollment as high as possible, the more students the more of the sweet sweet federal $$$ coming at the school. Providing a decent education becomes an afterthought.
Frontline link:
mantis
@Zifnab:
And a degree from a private non-profit university with strong technology schools (Cal Tech, MIT, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, etc.) is an even bigger green light, usually.
kay
@dmsilev:
I agree. This study is skewed too, because all for-profit programs are lumped together, a certificate to drive a truck and an associate degree are not the same thing.
But, the loans are federally guaranteed, and can’t be discharged in bankruptcy, so I don’t know why we went with a profit model at all. Why would we (essentially) subsidize a trucking company to train their workers, and allow shareholder or owners to profit on the training?
Eric U.
anyone notice the (probably paid) advertisement for DeVry on Psyche last week? It was really awkwardly inserted into the script, and then a Devry add ran right after that.
Daddy-O
“… I’m not clear on why a growing for-profit higher education sector is any improvement on the public community college route…”
Damn, JGabriel, you took the words right out of my mouth.
arguingwithsignposts
@jah:
The worst part of it is the for-profit companies buy out non-profits and use the accreditation that is already there. That frontline piece was depressing.
“This American Life” had a piece about those people a while back, but their archive search sucks.
Daddy-O
@kay: Well, what’s your solution, Kay? I’m seriously interested, because I’m fairly stumped.
This money helps workers as well as companies. The system is in place. Aside from some minor tweaks, what would be the best thing to do?
arguingwithsignposts
@kay:
Clearly you don’t understand how the free hand of the marketplace works (/snark). It’s not going to hold the worker’s hand. It’s reaching around back for his/her wallet.
BTW, I don’t know if anyone else has seen it, but there was an ad recently (I believe on Hulu or possibly msnbc) in which Federal Express complained about some bill or regulation that would “only help UPS” and keep FedEx from competing in the market.
Did anyone else see this? I thought it was extremely tacky.
R-Jud
@dmsilev:
This is true. Some of the diploma mills will even send you fake transcripts and a fake class ring in exchange for your money. There is at least some studying involved with the FPCs: the bigger ones are regionally accredited. They will usually do the absolute bare minimum required to get that accreditation, but they’re accredited.
And yes, they do target people who aren’t familiar with how non-profit colleges work. FPCs LOVE the military, too. They recruit active-duty personnel quite heavily, touting the flexibility of online education. While online learning isn’t a bad thing in and of itself (and more than 25% of all college students were taking at least one class online in 2008-9, so if you are hiring, get used to the idea), it shouldn’t cost more than Harvard, unless your degree is actually going to be from Harvard.
Napoleon
Law School!!
Do you practice?
mantis
Aside from some minor tweaks, what would be the best thing to do?
That’s all that’s really needed. Accreditation bodies need to tighten their standards, most likely as a result of pressure from the National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity of the Department of Education, but legislation may be needed.
kay
@Daddy-O:
This may be incredibly naive, but why not run a background check, do an interview process, see if the driver is capable of CDL certification driving record, etc.) and then hire him or her and cover the cost of training and licensing?
It seems as if they’ve taken the cost (and the risk) of what is not elaborate training in what are not high-wage jobs and shifted it to the future employee, or independent contractor.
kay
@Napoleon:
Yeah, I do. I work in a rural area. We don’t have public defenders, so I take appointments in three counties, in juvenile courts, on defense and as a guardian ad litem in abuse neglect and dependency. I spend a lot of time in the juvenile court, so my private practice is majority visitation and custody among “never married” who have “non marital children”, cases which (as you know) in Ohio are adjudicated in the juvenile court and system.
I learned process in “juvenile court” and one thing led inexorably and naturally to another. I really love the work, although as you probably know, it’s not wildly lucrative, and it can be emotionally draining, so it wasn’t like there was a whole lot of hot-shot competition :)
Joel
This is where the open source movement should come in.
For-profit colleges and their affiliated online learning courses are a scam intended to defraud the government out of education loan dollars.
At least the online learning element could be replaced entirely by the efforts and coordination of the open internet community, and various initiatives are already starting (Wikibooks, iBioSeminars).
stuckinred
Propriety schools have been ripoff’s since at least the beginning of the WWII GI Bill. I agree with Joel and I know at least one Southern state where open source is getting great attention from the state higher ed organization.
kdaug
Always kind of been of the opinion that certain things shouldn’t be for-profit, period. Prisons are one of those things (incentivizes draconian laws). Medical care is another, as is the military. And education is right at the top of the list.
Seems, though, that in concert with drowning government in the bathtub, there’s a certain philosophy that believes government functions should be turned over to the private sector to be made a profit off of, thus increasing costs and resulting in double-billing of the citizens (taxes + profits).
Sounds crazy, I know. I wonder what we should call this odd philosophy?
Ed Drone
The report will be presented in a Congressional hearing Wednesday morning.
Ed
stuckinred
Have any of you seen Elements, an eBook made specifically for the iPad?
tatere
you’re wondering why government funding is being used to subsidize someone’s profits? seriously? you still have to ask this?
Amanda in the South Bay
@mantis:
Private non profit schools aren’t cheap either, and I’m sure there are by far more CS/EE/whatever grads going to mid tier schools than those elite colleges.
I’m cynical of the need to pay big bucks for higher education, but I suppose an Ivy or near Ivy league experience is worth it, but geez that’s a lot of money.
Mr. Upright
Amanda @7 brings up an important point about the difference between Associate degrees from community colleges and Bachelor degrees from for profits.
Realizing that my job at a four-year institution depends on students wanting to earn at least a BS/BA, I have yet long argued that these are not appropriate degrees for many, possibly most, people. Too many jobs nowadays require Bachelors for jobs that don’t really need any education at all. Furthermore, such employers rarely from where those degrees come. The degree is a box to be checked on the employment form.
This does three things:
(1) it cheapens what should be highly valued Associate degrees and certificates of specialized training,
(2) it reduces the value of Bachelor degrees to little more than extended high school diplomas,
(3) it encourages the growth of for profit institutions that sell otherwise meaningless degrees for a great deal of money.
Leah
I’m delighted to see a discussion begun among liberal/progressives about this issue. Thanks, Kay.
I also agree with Jah about that Frontline episode, which was no-holds-barred reporting and deeply disturbing.
I couldn’t find the offered link so here’s where you can read material, find a transcript or watch the episode online:
College, Inc
jl
I know some people who have taught at for profit universities. Some of them are not scams, but from what I hear from them, it is not traditional college education even if the courses and degrees have the same name.
Efficiency is key, and that means the instructors, regardless of their qualifications, get a predigested program. You get your lesson plan, your power points, your readings, your lectures, your test bank and you do what you are told. Not sure what choices are left for the instructor, maybe just choosing what questions to use from the test bank.
If the for profit is low quality hiring instructors, or professors, or whatever they should be called, then this type of system puts a minimum lower bound on quality, but you will not attract creative people to teach.
At least in California, this is far different, and IMHO, lower quality, that what you get at an an average CA community college. My experience, both as a student, and from what I saw as an instructor for awhile, is that CA community colleges on average offer very high quality courses that compete with the state schools and lower division UC general education.
I also think public and private non profits are getting a more for profit attitude, since generating cash is very important. So much more time devoted to seeking external funding, less for independent research and keeping skills current.
University of California needs cash and is talking about distance learning branch. The idea has not gotten off to an auspicious start, since from what I understand, the blanks that run the place were at least talking about bypassing faculty in designing it.
Education, from K through graduate, is becoming very depressing in the US. Not sure our culture has the mentality to truly invest in education anymore. I think the ‘what’s it good fer right now’ and the ‘if you’re so smart why aren’t you rich’ attitude makes for a lousy environment to foster good education.
mantis
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Private non profit schools aren’t cheap either
No, they aren’t.
and I’m sure there are by far more CS/EE/whatever grads going to mid tier schools than those elite colleges.
Of course. I’m just saying that a degree from one of those schools is very handy when looking for work.
I’m cynical of the need to pay big bucks for higher education, but I suppose an Ivy or near Ivy league experience is worth it, but geez that’s a lot of money.
Indeed. I have two degrees from public schools, and now I work at a private school, where I’m working on a third degree (for free!). I can say this, based on my experience: private universities tend to have smaller class sizes, more experienced faculty, and better student resources, while state universities have lower tuition, more active campus life, and fewer snooty rich kids. These are not hard and fast rules, of course. There certainly are elite, highly selective programs at some state schools, and some private schools suck.
jl
Final thought. I am leery of applying standard superficial economic reasoning, that is inadequate even in other areas of life, to education. The product is information. Unless this product can be easily standardized and measured, as in for example, a well defined set of skills like some IT areas, or qualifications for driving a certain kind of truck, or repairing certain kinds of cars, standard economics does not apply.
Joseph Stiglitz got the Nobel Memorial Prize in econ for working out the foundations of information economics in detail.
Most standard economic analysis assumes perfect information, or at least that everyone has enough information to form correct expectations about the quality of the product. Any average person can sense a problem when this assumption is applied to education.
A clever economist can spin up enough jargon to confuse people into thinking some black box market magic does something magical, even though common sense says otherwise. I think in this case, common sense is right.
stuckinred
@jl: I have spent the last 10 years working with sme’s in various disciplines develop online courses for a state institution. If these clowns think the can bypass faculty they will get bit in the ass sooner or later. Also, the idea of online courses as a revenue stream remains up in the air, ask the University of Illinois for one.
stuckinred
Article about online at Cal with a mention of the failed Illinois program.
jl
@stuckinred: thanks for the info. If you have any links for what happened at the University of Illinois, please post them here. I am curious.
Not sure where the University of California plan is headed, but they have been trotting out what seem to me to be sketchy get rich quick schemes in response to budget cuts.
Edit: thanks in retrospect for links.
Amanda in the South Bay
Alas, I think a lot of California higher ed’s budget problems have to do with the well known inability of the legislature to do things like raise taxes. I don’t see the point in paying the same amount of money (would the tuition for a UC distance learning program be the same as for a traditional degree?) if I can go to a CSU school for 50% of the cost.
I’ve always thought the solution to getting a good education was to go to small public colleges-something like a Humboldt State, or maybe one of the regional schools (Western, Southern, Eastern Oregon Universities) in my home state. Of course those tend to be located in bum fuck villes.
R-Jud
@jl:
Yep. I think a large part of the problem is that we can’t agree on what we want from it. Are we transmitting cultural heritage? Whose? Who decides what is included or excluded? Are we training future workers? If so, what kind? These questions have always generated heated debate, but in the last thirty years, with the 27%ers yelling their heads off, they’ve become impossible to even ask, let alone attempt to solve.
At the K-12 level, you are also dealing with a mindset that asks “Why should I pay for someone else’s kid to go to school?”
mantis
@stuckinred:
Also, the idea of online courses as a revenue stream remains up in the air, ask the University of Illinois for one.
That’s not exactly a good example. U of I decided to create a wholly separate “Global Campus,” distinct from the rest of the university, with the aim of building a huge online university. Their goals were way too high, especially considering the variety of competition for online education. Their second big mistake was, as you allude to, to essentially take curriculum from good, experienced faculty and give it to their online instructors to teach. This was monumentally stupid, as faculty are not just interchangeable curriculum delivery machines, and taking curriculum faculty often spend years developing and honing and handing it to an inexperienced instructor will assuredly piss off the good faculty, insuring they won’t want to contribute to the online learning venture, and maybe consider leaving the university altogether.
Other universities have definitely been successful at building revenue from online learning, but they do so by responding to demand.
stuckinred
@jl: I think this about covers it.
U of I Global Campus
mantis
Here’s the InsideHigherEd story about the collapse of the University of Illinois “Global Campus”.
stuckinred
@mantis: I agree, I was giving an example of what can happen if you don;t plan carefully. Hence the 10 year time frame for us to build our program.
stuckinred
Here’s an example.
mantis
@stuckinred:
Well fine, if we’re going to have a big ol’ agreement party. I agree with all of you!
Nope, feels weird. I’ll go find a wingnut blog to annoy.
stuckinred
@mantis: Is there an echo in here? :)
groucho
stuckinred
@mantis: We’ll, what about the Chief???
jl
From my experience teaching statistics (which no one can deny is practical, so it should gain me some small credibility even in the US), transmitting a true understanding and ability to apply abstract material is very difficult.
Not to brag, but I have students who have gone on to take stats in grad professional programs at UC Berkeley, Harvard, Tniversity of Texa, and other high class places. So far they have all told me that stats is a breeze after taking my courses. But it took me five years to get the courses down, with lots of false starts. Some first tries at introducing new advanced material, illustrating new applications, were true and epic bombs of Bibilical proportions.
Same with my economics teaching.
I am very suspicious of the new fangled efficiency and performance programs, like NCLB, Race to the Top and for profit education. The emphasis on standardized measurable deliverable product can result in students who can pass tests, but who are truly and hopelessly clueless when they have to apply abstract material, like stats or math or economics to real world situations. I have seen this with my own students: medical professionals, engineers, technicians who are truly lost and helpless as soon as anything unexpected or new comes up.
Ironically, the supposed higher standards can easily produce lower results in a practical real world sense, even by the current nasty, crabbed, dead, stingy attitude prevalent in the US, where practical know how and ‘what can you do for me before I rip you off’ is all that matters.
In stats, I deal with medical, pharmacy, nursing students who are very disciplined. They love to learn magic formulas, and they are often diligent little calculation machines. It is easy to design efficient courses for them, and profuce great test results. It is also easy to do this and produce graduates who are utterly helpless when they have to apply the math or stats to new unexpected situations that regularly arise in their professional work.
jl
My comment in moderation, presumably because of some s p * m words. I will try this version.
From my experience teaching statistics (which no one can deny is practical, so it should gain me some small credibility even in the US), transmitting a true understanding and ability to apply abstract material is very difficult.
Not to brag, but I have students who have gone on to take stats in grad professional programs at UC Berkeley, Harvard, Tniversity of Texa, and other high class places. So far they have all told me that stats is a breeze after taking my courses. But it took me five years to get the courses down, with lots of false starts. Some first tries at introducing new advanced material, illustrating new applications, were true and epic bombs of Bibilical proportions.
Same with my economics teaching.
I am very suspicious of the new fangled efficiency and performance programs, like NCLB, Race to the Top and for profit education. The emphasis on standardized measurable deliverable product can result in students who can pass tests, but who are truly and hopelessly clueless when they have to apply abstract material, like stats or math or economics to real world situations. I have seen this with my own students: m * d * c * l professionals, engineers, technicians who are truly lost and helpless as soon as anything unexpected or new comes up.
Ironically, the supposed higher standards can easily produce lower results in a practical real world sense, even by the current nasty, crabbed, dead, stingy attitude prevalent in the US, where practical know how and ‘what can you do for me before I rip you off’ is all that matters.
In stats, I deal with m * d * c * l, p h * r m* c y, n* r s *n g students who are very disciplined. They love to learn magic formulas, and they are often diligent little calculation machines. It is easy to design efficient courses for them, and profuce great test results. It is also easy to do this and produce graduates who are utterly helpless when they have to apply the math or stats to new unexpected situations that regularly arise in their professional work.
James E. Powell
@R-Jud: Absolutely correct on both points, and one feeds the other.
There is no consensus on what comprises an education or what an educated person is. For K-12, an educated person is now defined as a person who will get a certain score on standardized tests. California’s state board just voted to replace its state standards with federal standards. It did this not because the federal standards will lead to students who are more or better educated, but solely in order to qualify for some federal money.
With no agreed understanding of what an educated person is, the only standard most parents use to judge their child’s education is: will getting the diploma from this institution give my child access to greater economic opportunity. This is how we ended up with elite nursery schools.
For parents with this mindset, their child’s education is nothing more than a ticket to higher income. It is completely reasonable that they would resent any effort to require them to buy the same ticket for other people’s children.
ed drone
@R-Jud:
The next time they buy a burger and the kid at the register has to use little illustrations instead of words to ring them up, they’ll realize why it’s damned good business to “pay for someone else’s kid to go to school.” Then again, maybe they’ll never ‘get it.’
“Some of the people all of the time” indeed!
Ed
stuckinred
@ed drone: Or, in the case of us without kids, why should we pay for EVERYBODY else’s kids to go to school”? (don’t get upset, I’m a liberal, I’ll keep payin”!
stuckinred
And right on cue, this from the Chronicle of Higher ED.
Going For-Profit in Higher Education
jl
Another example, from grade school.
I’ve given music lessons to some some friends’ children. One of them had a daughter who was flunking math, and then got tutoring to get her to barely pass, but she still hated grade school math.
But bring some fun music to the music lesson, where she has to learn fractions to count out triplets, odd time signatures, and syncopated rhythms, and suddenly fractions, division, become very very interesting to her.
All of a sudden she became a very good math student who could do fractions easily. And understood what they meant, rather than just manipulate symbols on paper.
I read an article about Japanese education, and noticed that music was integrated with math education in grade school. The article had a picture of happy students tooting away on cheap plastic recorders.
Here in the US, music is gone. Everyone knows, especially stingy middle aged creeps who got it themselves for free back when education was properly funded, that music is an inefficient frill, not a good investment for real important practical things.
Yeah, right. Art and music is not a frill.
Odd that some snooty racist IQ experts insist that geometrical reasoning is the hallmark of the supposed white man’s smarts. But at the same time many ignorant people who worship that kind of olde timey expertise want to stomp out art and vocational classes (where you learn and practice geometrical reasonsing) as frills, not really serious stuff like arithmetic. There is no profit in art, music, home economics, and shop classes.
So, OK, fine, waste money producing bored little kids who can pass three minute tests. See what kind helpless people who hate math you produce.
OK, I am ranting now, and will leave this thread before I become shrill.
stuckinred
@jl: Rock on teach!
R-Jud
@ed drone:
They’ll get it when the uneducated kid grows up to be the orderly or low-paid aide in their nursing home, and mixes up their pills.
Comrade Kevin
@arguingwithsignposts: Fedex are, essentially, lying. Since they were founded as an airline, and not a shipping company, there’s some loophole in the law that legally prevents their workers from striking, and it is almost impossible for them to form a union. There’s proposed legislation that would change the law so all shipping companies would be subject to regular labor law.
If anything, currently they have an unfair written-into-law advantage over UPS and USPS.
Amanda in the South Bay
@R-Jud:
Alas, online degrees from for profit schools are ubiquitous in the Army. I swear, just about every 30 something officer I met who was prior enlisted and went to OCS had a degree from from one of those outfits.
Whatever happened to the days when people from elite schools joined the military?
And just like payday lenders, they leach and suck off the troops, and I hate them with a passion.
fitzwili
@stuckinred
Thank you so much for all the great links today! This is a subject that I am very interested in because I am about to start the University of Edinburgh’ s masters program in e-learning,which is of course taught entirely online. I am mainly interested(at this point) in using e-learning to provide resources for underserved demographics, but I imagine that I might like to consult with course development as well.
You have really provided me with my reading material for tonite!
Pennsylvanian
I worked at the corporate headquarters of a for profit corporation that has schools all over the US. I worked there are quite a few years at a private university. The change in focus was quite sickening. The “admissions” department was the sales department and were rewarded accordingly, with things like trips to Hawaii if they got enough butts in seats. The admissions requirements were a sham and it was all about maxing out that loan money (which is the corporate income). They pursued partnerships with sub-prime lenders to make sure even the worst off parents could get saddled with a PLUS loan. It was really depressing.
And the placement figures? What a scam. A four year degree in photography leading to a job at a grocery store where they develop film is not “working in your field”. Did they also put out some people who wound up at Industial Light and Magic or became famous photographers? Sure, but so can any average school because the exceptionally talented tend to rise to the top regardless.
Loan default rates were tracked very closely to make sure no school was exceeding the federal threshold where it could no longer qualify for Title IV funding and students were hounded to keep up on payments for the first three years that made up that threshold.
Did some kids get some good education? I’m sure. Did many get scammed because they did not have the skills or prep or help to succeed but could qualify for financial aid? I’m sure.
Ruckus
@jl:
Won’t go into examples (which I have a few) but I call it lowest common denominator teaching. If you or you kid is going to public school, that for the most part is what you get. Some public schools and teachers are a lot better. But the system leans against teaching to a child’s upper limits, partially because they have to teach everyone and have limited budgets. And school districts only get paid federal tax dollars when students advance. And in continuing good news from bush it’s what NCLB really stands for, even if that was not its intent, but it’s been going on for a long time. I’m an old fart and it was going on in the late 50’s when I was in elementary school. My feeling is that it has only gotten worse with the budgets being cut and teacher salaries being so crappy.
It’s why rethugs like vouchers. Send your kids to private school, paid for at least in part by tax dollars. The kids get a better education and effectively you get a tax rebate. And you can continue to scream how crappy government is.
HyperIon
@jl:
Amen, brother (or sister).
But it’s so much easier to compose, take, and grade a multiple choice test.
IMO some “smart” students are great at memorizing stuff or recognizing a previously presented pattern but awful at manipulating ideas or analogizing to new situations. So they aren’t really educated.
For me “educated” means able to acquire new knowledge on your own and use your old knowledge to understand the world, that is, to think critically but that’s become a big buzzword so….
It has nothing to do with getting a piece of paper in exchange for tuition.
Mnemosyne
@HyperIon:
Not only that, but you don’t need skilled teachers, either, since all they need to do is teach to the test and drill the required information into the kids’ heads.
It takes someone who actually know how to teach to get kids to actually learn new things and be able to apply them in other situations, but those people can get expensive and tend to form unions.
HyperIon
I love that Edward Gibbon quote.
It is very humbling to be a teacher.
Thanks, Kay, for the nice post.
stuckinred
@fitzwili: Great! email me at markann at gmail dot com and maybe I can give you more info.
fitzwili
@stuckinred
Thanks- will send email tomorrow – this is very nice of you!
This blog’s community is great – where else can you get ideas on what to cook for dinner, political activism, advice on pets (101 ways with cat absseses was my favorite), and people with knowledge of precisely the thing you want to expand your expertise on!
YellowJournalism
Democrats are no better, including the President and his education secretary. Race to the Top basically allows unsuccessful schools to become charter school if they can’t get their numbers up. Recent studies have shown, though, that most charter schools are no better and sometimes worse than their public school counterparts. The teacher turnover rate is extremely high, too, because of the low pay and long hours they expect. Basically, some charters only want teachers who are clones of Michelle Pfieffer in Dangerous Minds or some other crappy inspirational teacher movie. That kind of life spells burnout if the teacher doesn’t leave to become an inspirational speaker or enter another field of work. (Teach for America is a great example of some really good teachers who tend to leave for other jobs after three years.)
Then there’s the ones that are touted as highly successful, like the ones you see Anderson Cooper slobbering over on CNN, only they hide the fact that students who are apathetic, have no parental support, or fail to raise scores for any reason are most often “counseled out” of the programs. I’ll try to find the link where I read about one such school that claimed 100 percent graduation rates, yet they failed to mention that over 100 students
got kicked outwere “counseled out” in the last year of the program. A lot of those successful charters will also not accept students with severe learning disabilities or emotional problems. And where do all these “problem” students end up? Back in the public school system, unless they just plain drop out.Oh, and if you hear about how NOLA’s school system has improved so much since Katrina, remember that no one has bothered to track the students who were sent to Houston and other places after their families were displaced. These students are the ones that came from poor families who weren’t able to relocate back home.
geg6
@Amanda in the South Bay:
I find it difficult to believe that you’d need to take out loans to pay your bill at San Jose State if you have Chapter 33 VA educational benefits. First, isn’t that a public university? If it is, then with 100% eligibility, you would have full tuition paid (the payment limit is the most expensive program tuition at the most expensive state university in a particular state), $1000 for books, and if you are not active duty, a monthly housing allowance set at the cost of living in your region (here in Pittsburgh, it’s a bit over $1400). If it’s a private school, it should be participating in the Yellow Ribbon Program, which is a partnership between the VA and the school to split the difference of any balance remaining after the Chapter 33 tuition payment is taken into account, a program that can also cover out-of-state tuition differentials for non-state resident students at public universities. Where I work, Penn State, even out-of-state students don’t need to use Yellow Ribbon because the highest cost PA state university program in-state tuition (a Pitt specialized pre-med program) is higher than we charge out-of-state students for every program at PSU.
That said, for-profits colleges are a huge ripoff, on cost and quality, no matter how you look at it. Even continuing education certificate programs can be gotten much cheaper at a local community college or through the continuing education department at a local state or non-profit private university and the quality of instruction is vastly superior. There are very few credits from a for-profit which we will accept for transfer. I’ve had students who came to us after two years at a for-profit and they usually come in as true freshmen, with maybe 3 or 6 credits of 60 or 66 transferring. And they often have federal and private educational loan debt of well over $40,000 before we admit them.
Amanda in the South Bay
@geg6:
Ah, I get 80% of the total amount for tuition, since I was a Reservist and I didn’t have that much active duty time. And people earning a second bachelors degree pay grad student tuition at SJSU (and I think at all the other local CSUs as well) which…well, would require part time status, which drags out being a student forever in order to get everything covered 100%.
But yes, the BAH is nice :)
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: We have a scholarship in Georgia that pays tuition for Guard and Reservists who served in combat zones. It’s a bit strange because if you were RA you are not eligible.
Amanda in the South Bay
@stuckinred:
Alas, I never served overseas in a combat zone, nor do I live in GA :( (or maybe that should be :) for that last part)
It all has to do with being reclassed as a 97E (35M now I think), getting sent to DLI for Korean about a month after finishing Huachuca, rocking out of my first class and getting recycled, failing the DLPT (I got a 2+ in listening and a 1+ in reading, go figure), then on post DLPT coming out as transgendered to the Army, taking the DLPT again and passing (its still stressful even if you know it doesn’t matter) then hanging on for about a month and a half while the Army finished kicking my tranny ass out.
And of course prior to going to Huachuca being ridiculously fucking lucky, as I did not want to go to Iraq or A-Stan as supply, 92 fucking Yankee.
geg6
@Amanda in the South Bay:
You should come to PA. If you get 80%, you could, as a reservist or National Guard member, you could qualify for a state tuition assistance program and the usual state grant program is also guaranteed as long as you file a FAFSA before May 1. That would easily cover any shortfalls from your GI Bill entitlement.
stuckinred
@Amanda in the South Bay: Well goddamit, thanks for serving however whenever! I learned Korean on the job with the Katusa’s in our battery south of Munsani, still remember most of the swear words 43 years later! Ever see Just Call Me Kade? His dad is one of my best friends, not in this clip but his mom is.