HAI2U:
Good bbq- good burgers and brauts, couple beers nd a glass of wine, the dogs all behaved, but everyone wanted to adopt Lily rather than the one for up for grabs.
I just don’t know what to do. I just do not trust a JRT, even a good one, with my Tunch.
beltane
Oh dear, it looks like Rosie has already eaten Tunch.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
then it’s no choice. You cannot keep her. Pets need to bring comfort, not mistrust. Jrt’s are like my Charlie, a one owner, one pet affair. Though Charlie likes the parakeet okay, but Purl being in a cage offers comfort from existential pet worries.
Mike Schilling
What’s the big deal? If Tunch eats her, you’ll still have one dog left.
arguingwithsignposts
I’m posting this again, because this is something I’m curious about and I don’t know if she’ll see it in the menu open thread:
I was on the road during Cole’s epic DELETE MY ACCOUNT! post and subsequent full-on win comment section. But I noticed ellaesther posted in that thread, and I hope she’s reading this one, because I heard on NPR about the Ashkenazi/Sephardic Ultra Orthodox Cage Match (link to “All Things Considered” audio) that’s happening right now in the Holy Land, and I was curious about her take on it.
One thing I found curious is that the Ashkenazi trace their roots to European Jews while Sephardics trace their roots to Spain or the Middle East. But if they are all reading the same scriptures, ALL of the ethnic Jews are of middle eastern descent, amirite?
Shalimar
I wouldn’t either, too much risk. I currently have what looks like a black lab (named Lucy) who was dumped and has taken up residence out in front of my house. I feed her, but she can’t come in because she and the neighbor dogs chase and kill outside cats (there were over a dozen wild ones 6 months ago, now 1 is left). And I can’t take her with me when my four inside cats and I move in a month or two because there are wild cats at the new house and I don’t want them to die. It sucks for Lucy since she is such a sweet and loyal dog, but there is no choice. And she now has puppies, so more complications to find a home for.
Crashman
I don’t know much about dogs so this is confusing to me… What is it about JRTs that make you not trust this one? Are they notoriously bad around cats? Do they not like other animals?
Mike Kay
I was reading a PUMA blog today and they’re as conspiratorial as the teabaggers and still fumming over Hillary’s loss.
Anyone have an idea what fuels such anger? I mean, it’s 2 1/2 years since the Iowa caucus. How can you remain so red hot angry over a loss that happen so long ago.
After all Obama made Hillary Secretary of State and by all accounts they get along fabulously.
I just don’t get it. I supported Howard Dean in 2004 and I got over his loss pretty quickly, and I never held any ill feeling towards John Kerry. And if Hillary had won, I would be supporting her today.
At what point did everyone become sore losers?
beltane
Did the vet have any idea how old she is? An older, not very spry female is not likely to start trouble with a resident cat. My neighbor has a fitter, hyper JRT and her cat still appears to be alive, although my lab is afraid to walk past her house.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Crashman: I’ve never had one as a pet, but friends have and they are unpredictable around other pets, especially with the same owner. Maybe protective, or jealous, who knows. But they can be very aggressive and they have very powerful jaw muscles that can inflict fatal wounds easily, even in animals bigger than them.
Malron
Sir John, I doth loudly protest: why isn’t “Massive Kenyan Penis” immortally enshrined as part of the lexicon?
Keith G
Go with your gut. Surely you have generated enough goodwill in the shelter/rescue/adoption world that you have a few chits to call in (Betsy, anyone). “We” can get a great home for this lovely girl. You have gone enough.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gen E. T. Stuck: I do not think I knew about Purl. How is it that we have never seen pictures of her?
P.S. I understand that she may be sleeping in a draped cage at the moment and not a good time to take her picture. That’s OK!! I will settle for a photo of Charlie!!
Johnny's mom
c’mon dude…
my heart broke again at the ever-present sight of those poor birds smothered, literally, in oil. I knew my heart would be lifted by the goings-on at the Cole household. Rosie needs you to keep her safe and full, at least until her little girl finds her again. C’mon… Pullllllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee?
beltane
@Mike Kay: I think it’s just a certain personality type that causes this. These people identified with Hillary more than Hillary identified with herself. That combined with a little wounded white pride is a recipe for crazy.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@SiubhanDuinne:
I emailed Cole a pic of Purl a couple of years ago and nuthin’. I have only seen cats and dogs posted on this blog.
Keith G
@Johnny’s mom: And Cole has a duty to Tunch that is, in my view sacred. I am not happy with those who say, “There *should* be no problem.”
TaMara (formerly Bad Horse's Filly)
One day at a time, John. You never know how these are going to turn out, but they usually do.
I rescued a husky-mix, tied to a tree when my neighbors moved (evicted). Nobody wanted him, I had him neutered, tried everything to get him adopted, nothing was working. He was not cat friendly and I already had a house-full that included 2 cats. When he was outside I had to chain him in my fenced backyard because he could escape anywhere or anything.
And that’s just what he did, somehow broke the chain and took off. He wasn’t gone 15 minutes and I was looking for him that whole time. A neighbor saw that he got picked up by animal control.
I went to claim him and realized I just couldn’t bring him home. I was explaining all this to the very kind worker there when a man steps up behind me and says, “I was just looking at that dog, I’m totally in love with him. We have 10 acres and we’ve always had huskies, he’d do great with us.”
That story still brings tears to my eyes. I believe in angels because of it. Excuse me, I mean the FSM.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@SiubhanDuinne: Yea, it’s about dark here now. Tell you what, I will take a pic soon and post it on my blog, and let you know when. But remind me if I forget. Plus, my CF card has about worn out for the camera, a new one i ordered should arrive by mail in the next couple of days.
arguingwithsignposts
@Mike Kay:
Which raises the perfectly reasonable question: Why?
SiubhanDuinne
Johnny’s mom: I simply cannot watch any TV these days. I found myself crying every time I saw those images. Repetition didn’t dull the impact, it made it worse. I can’t remember now how many weeks it’s been since I watched a news or commentary program by choice.
eemom
@Johnny’s mom:
I’m with you. : (
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
Aha! A species-ist blog! Always suspected there was something distinctly un-PC about this place…..
Crashman
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: Thanks. I had no idea. I wonder how many people picked one of those up because of Frasier, and never realized that sort of thing.
beltane
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: That doesn’t sound like fun. But there must be a JRT rescue group that could help find a more suitable home for Rosie. She looks like she’d be perfect company for an older person who doesn’t have other pets or kids.
MikeJ
@Crashman:
JRTs are one thing, but *never* loan your car to Kelsey Grammer.
taterstick
I can attest to the issues with JRT’s, although I didn’t realize it is a shared trait among the breed. I took in a wonderful male JRT stray a few months ago that we fell in love with, and ended up having to find a different home for him. We have three other dogs and there was a serious problem with the JRT and being aggressively defensive with food. He attacked my German Shepherd more than once over food and, despite my best efforts to avoid it, the last episode nearly got the JRT killed.
It broke my heart to have to part with the little guy, but he is now the best friend of a wonderful 10 year old girl with curly red hair, who just happens to have a very well off Dad and Mom. The little twit is now living the high life!
eemom
fwiw, my sister in law has a JRT and a kitty (other dogs too) and there’s never been any problem.
Anne Laurie
@arguingwithsignposts:
Scientifically, there is no difference worth mentioning between the Scots, the Welsh, the Irish, and the ‘Orangemen’ of Northern Ireland. Try explaining this to a proud member of any of those Celtic tribes and see how far it gets you. Just don’t try it when they’re holding anything that could be used as a weapon, or if drink has been taken.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@Crashman: The chances are that there wouldn’t be a problem, and JRT’s are basically sweet dogs and I have always liked them, but once witnessed one destroy a Doberman/ The tenacity was scary.
Jane2
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: I agree with you. I’d love a Shiba Inu, but it’s a disastrous choice with my existing cats. And sure, I’d work with it and train it and maybe it would be the one Shiba in a gazillion that isn’t predatory…but I’m not willing to take that chance. My existing pets have dibs.
SiubhanDuinne
*I have only seen cats and dogs posted on this blog.*
And babies of the human persuasion. Don’t forget SamKitten and The Bean.
Well, whenever you can take and upload Purl I’d love to see her.
eemom
@MikeJ:
srsly. I was a Frasier fan for years, and then the fucker had to go turn out to be a Ghouliani groupie, of all things. Unspeakable.
kdaug
You lose no bonus points if you have to give her up.
MikeJ
Even though the GOS links to it on the front page, and on top of that the video is from (yech) Politico(ptui), you should watch Biden being questioned on Barton if you haven’t seen it.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@SiubhanDuinne: Purl is a he. The people who gave him to me when they moved thought he was a girl, but they were wrong, and I just never got around to changing the name. I don’t think Purl minds much:)
Keith G
@eemom: FWIW, Rosie is an unknown quantity and y’all seem to be rather generous with the health and safety of the other beings who are depending on Cole for sound decision making – beings he has already made a life long commitment to.
eemom
@MikeJ:
omg, that was awesome! Heard it on NPR while driving home this evening. I loves me that Joe.
Anne Laurie
@Shalimar: I feel for you — it’s a horrible situation all round, but you’re right that Lucy would probably never be reliably “cat safe”. Is there an animal rescue group in your area that does trap / neuter / release programs for cats? They might at least be able to capture the puppies and re-home them while they’re still young enough to adapt. And possibly they could even help you link up with a dog rescue group that could get Lucy spayed?
SiubhanDuinne
@General: I bookmarked your blog when you went galt last month, so I’ll check for Purlpix every couple days, and nag you over here if you are too slow to post.
debit
Well, as much as I would like to see Rosie fit in with your family, if it won’t work, it won’t work. One of the conditions I had when I took Chloe home for a test run was that she had to be okay with the cats. She either ignores them or is submissive to them (now). There are growling issues with her food, but only when she gets wet food (rarely and only when I’m in the kitchen with her) but the cats have figured this out and respect the sanctity of her food dish. The first month was iffy, but I now trust her to behave with them more than I trust them to behave with her.
But you have to be comfortable in your own home, Cole, and you need to be able to feel secure about the safety of your pets. If you really feel Rosie is a danger to Tunch, then she must go.
Mike Kay
@arguingwithsignposts: they were freaking out over Cole’s mid day post “not enough” and someone linked to the hate.
debit
Your alt text made me spew water out my nose. Well done.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gen ETS: Oh, sorry! My apologies to Mr. Purl. *
* That was about eleventy-thousand times more sincere an apology than Joe Barton’s fauxtraction.
Roger Moore
@Mike Kay:
Among the bitter enders, I’d bet on racism as at least a contributing factor. Watching “one of them” steal victory from your anointed leader has to be galling.
Mike Kay
@eemom: worse than that, he was a huge shrub groupie.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
@SiubhanDuinne: LOL
Betsy
@arguingwithsignposts:
Wasn’t there just an article in the NYT or somewhere recently about how Ashkenazim like yours truly and Sephardim were “surprisingly” close genetically?
Edit: Why yes, yes there was:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/science/10jews.html
Not that biological reality has ever had much to do with bigotry, despite the bigots’ protestations to the contrary.
arguingwithsignposts
I think you have the owner/pet relationship mixed up there wrt Tunch/you.
Anne Laurie
@Crashman:
JRTs, like all terriers, are bred for an extra-strong “prey drive” — and they are more “energetic” (read ‘hyper’) than even the average terrier. They’re fast, they’re smart, they’re stubborn, and they’re bloody driven. (The JRT who appeared on Fraiser had been given up by two previous owners & was due for euthanasia before a professional Hollywood animal wrangler took him in; the willingness to work 12-hour days repeating the same bit of business over & over that made that dog a TV star made him totally unsuitable as a household pet.)
Some JRT lines are less liable to try and kill cats (rabbits, hamsters, ferrets, small children) than others, and a JRT raised from puppyhood around cats can be taught that the “fun” of cat-harassing isn’t worth the aggravation it incurs. But John’s right to assume that an adult JRT of unknown background can never be assumed to be 100% trustworthy around a middle-aged cat of sedentary habits who’s used to being King of the Household.
Betsy
@SiubhanDuinne:
With apologies if this has already been posted in another thread.
Morbo
@Anne Laurie: You just made an enemy for life!
jeffreyw
@Betsy:
I fix for you.
TuiMel
John, you have got to do what is right for you and your pets-by-deliberate choice, Tunch and Lily. Rosie seems to be a sweetie, but only you are able to observe whether she seems trustworthy enough to be adopted into your home. Only you know if you would adopt her if your Comments Community were not lobbying for it.
I have tried to keep track of Rosie events, but can’t recall if you have been able to follow through with checking for inquiries at shelters or posting on Craig’s List. If she was dumped, the dumper must have fed her very well in preparation for her time “on the road” (if she is not going to have pups).
I have been part of the chorus wishing and expecting that you would take Rosie in if her owner cannot be identified. I have no doubt that she would love you a long time – $5 or no $5. But, all of us would be devastated if Rosie were to go “crazy JRT” on any of the animals in your life. Jacks have different temperaments, but I even look at my own sweet boy as being capable of pulling a wild card on me. It requires some degree of vigilance.
I will continue to hope that a resolution presents itself that will result in happiness for all involved.
Mary G
Only you are there, John. I’ve seen on “Animal Cops” a few times when a rescued dog is at first sweet and submissive, then gets aggressive and mean later when they are recovered physically. She sounds like a dog I’d love to own, but I would not take her either. My 19-year-old kitty. Sophie, who is snoring away beside me, would be too traumatized no matter how nice the doggy. Tunch is your first love. You need to know he’s safe in his own home.
Go Lakers!
/watching my one basketball game a year
eemom
with hopes that it will not ignite a flame war in which I have no energy to engage, can I just humbly point out that this dilemma illustrates just one of the many things that are morally wrong about dog breeding?
debit
Gotta agree with Anne Laurie here. It’s a hard decision, but you have to be able to have trust in your animals. Years ago I picked up a couple of Arabian mares; I’d only really wanted the one, but they threw the second one in for free and she seemed sweet and had excellent bloodlines, so I took her. Both mares were green broke (barely) but the the freebie, Jicarta, loved to work. She stood at the mounting block and had serious hissy fits if I worked with or rode anyone else. She was a fabulous mover, fast and fun and I loved her. But. Her reaction to being startled or frightened was to rear. And then go over. I couldn’t train it out of her, I couldn’t get her to the point where she’d trust me enough to let me be the judge of whether or not to freak. She was dangerous, and one day I would wind up crushed underneath her. I ended up selling her with a contract specifying she’d only be used for breeding, never riding. It broke my heart, but it was the only choice I could make.
SiubhanDuinne
@Betsy: LOL
@jeffreyw: Not sure what you fixed — they both look the same to me — but thanks.
debit
@eemom: Dog breeding in general or breeding for specific traits?
Betsy
@jeffreyw:
Thankee. :) I think it’s fixed in mine now too, but the more functional links, the better, I say!
Violet
John Cole, when you go to the vet tomorrow, see if they can find out how old she is. Perhaps an older dog would be more sedentary and less of a worry?
You have to do the right thing for your happy family. If that means finding her another forever home that isn’t yours, then that’s the best thing for everyone. You need to feel comfortable that your current pets will be safe.
I hope she’s got an owner who will be thrilled to see her again. She seems like a sweetie.
wonkie
There are Jack Russell specific rescues. (Most of the Jacks are labelled as not cat safe but some, apparently are OK with cats).
So, if, for whatever reason, John decides to give up Rosie, there is a good option: JRT rescue.l
It is hard to give up a dog. The love of my life, the dog of my heart, a pit/cattledog/huskie mix was unadoptable by me becuase she was not safe with my corgie mix. He was totally intimidated by her and, although she nver shwed aggression toward him. I could tell that sooner or later her inner alpha would come out. It just wasn’t fair to Balckie to bring her inot our home.
So she went with a family that took her to Indiana. I will nver know how her story ends. I still miss her and it’s been ovefr a year. I still measure every dog I meet by my memory of her.
But we can’tadopt them all.
If she goes to a JRT rescue they find someone who understands the breed ans is in a position to give her a good home.
SIA
@eemom: I assume you’re referring to the former Mayor? I saw him on Morning Joe today and was almost stunned at what a snide little weasel he is. Haven’t been exposed to him in a quite a while. The ho’sts were pressing him to admit Obama had done well getting 20B from BP for the residents of the gulf, and he absolutely would not do it. In fact, he said there were “50 things they had done absolutely wrong”.
debit
TWC had Shine on You Crazy Diamond as the background music for the local forecast. Not complaining, mind you, just found it an odd choice.
And now I see it’s 10:30 and way past my bedtime. ‘night all.
Scott
Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a Pogo Stick John — grow a fucking pair already, will ya?
A) You’re the pack leader and everyone knows that already — or should if you’re doing your job.
So therefore the JRT already knows that Tunch is off limits — again, if you’re doing your job. And if you’re not, well, then hop to it and do your job.
I introduced a 120 pitbull into my home that already had two cats and a dog and everyone figured out most ricky fucking tick what was acceptable behavior and what was not. And they all did this without my overt help because they’re all smarter than I am. And the animals that you’ve been given the chance to be the guardian of are all smarter than you — at least in these matters.
B) As you said yesterday — we all — EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US — know how this is going to end, so just embrace it John and stop pretending that its going to end any other way — because it isn’t.
You’ve got a new dog John and because of the efforts you’ve undertaken to find the dog’s home, and the concern that you’ve shown toward this animal you’ve demonstrated that you’re a better man then 99% of the people out there.
So enjoy your new family member and do it with the knowledge that what you will give her — for the rest of her life — is much better than she would probably receive anywhere else.
eemom
@SIA:
he is primordial slime, incarnate. In that 9-ring circus that was the 2008 republican presidential primary, it was a true pleasure watching him slowly circle the drain and ooze down into the sewer where he belongs.
Mike E
@Anne Laurie: My ex decided to “give in” to our daughter and brought a dog (springer/beagle) into a 2-cat household. I pleaded with her not to do it, primarily because she had never raised a dog in her life, and secondarily because of the trauma that the cats would invariably suffer.
3 1/2 years later, after one of the cats vamoosed it while the other adapted, the condo is still a 2-cat household because she added another cat (which adores the dog BTW). The new cat ironically drives the original cat nuts, which now doesn’t mind the dog one bit. Funny how critters work this shit out (and cat claws are a great deterrent).
Emma
@General Egali Tarian Stuck:
I agree. Sweet as she is, it’s not a workable situation. Tunch was there first. You owe him a happy and safe home.
Sirkowski
Can’t you give the dog to a shelter or something like that? Or give it away?
Betsy
@eemom:
That hardly seems fair. Primordial slime served an evolutionary purpose.
Emma
@Keith G:
Couldn’t agree more.
eemom
@debit:
Both. My main problems with it are (1) it is wrong to breed dogs for sale in a world where there are so many who die for lack of homes;
(2) it is wrong to manipulate animals to satisfy some fucked up human standard of species “purity” (“Master Race”, anyone?); (3) it exponentially multiplies the already horrific amount of animal abuse and neglect; (4) it results in fucked up behaviors like what we’ve been discussing, and also species-specific health problems such as are suffered by Bassets, for example (cute as TBogg’s dogs are).
drag0n
My neighbour has a jack russel and a cat. There are also numerous cats that cross around the backyard. He tried to chase them all at one point but one swipe from their claws and he learned his lesson and that was the end of that. YMMV.
eemom
@Betsy:
Good point. Post-evolutionary toxic waste slime, perhaps?
ellaesther
@arguingwithsignposts: Hey! I’m here! Cool.
I see that mostly people have answered your question, but there’s an element that isn’t strictly about race, per se.
As in any religious community, the stricter your observance gets, the less accepting you are of what other people call observance. Within Orthodox Judaism, either Ashkenazi or Sephardi, there are many strands and schools, and your rabbi may not be my rabbi and vice-a-versa, and so I won’t accept what your rabbi says, because he’s not my rabbi. I’ve seen very Orthodox Jews reject the strictly kosher meals on El Al, because the “hekhsher” (kosher certification) isn’t from the right source.
In very, very broad terms (largely because I don’t know the Orthodox community well enough to speak in narrower terms, so bear that in mind), the Ashkenazi community writ large is more strictly observant (or, perhaps more precisely: has developed a greater number of rules) than the Sephardi community, and thus, the Sephardi are not observant enough, in the books of many Ashkenazi. Thus, they don’t want co-mingling. The ultra-Orthodox of all colors also tend to not co-mingle with converts (no matter how observant), or even born-Jews who have become Orthodox — because they didn’t grow up in religious (or religious enough) homes.
As with many social issues, it’s easy to boil the Ashkenazi-Sephardi thing down to one factor (in this case, skin color), but that’s not necessarily accurate. Or, rather, that’s not the whole picture. The interplay between religious bigotry and racial bigotry is too closely intertwined to really tease one out of the other. It’s both (and probably more, to boot!).
ellaesther
@jeffreyw: @Betsy: and I tweet for you!
God, I love the internet.
Arguingwithsignposts - ipod touchs
FSM,am I gonna have to hear even more shit about how awesome Phil Jackson is as a coach? Because IMHO, he’s a grifter. He’s never coached a team without one of the best of all time. Hey, Phil, got back to me when you bring Atlanta to the finals.
Uloborus
@arguingwithsignposts:
I have only heard peripherally about this event, but I’m laughing about it already. Having grown up a Jew, the idea that there are riots in Jerusalem because the ultra-orthodox Ashkenazi and ultra-orthodox Sephardic Jews don’t want their kids going to school together is so VERY, VERY Jewish.
Judaism is the religion that’s only evangelical to other Jews. When I found out about shlokoms I was laughing for days. The classic Jewish attitude is ‘The goyim don’t know any better.’ Non-Jews are not expected to be Jews. But other Jews? Oh, Jews are forever looking down their noses at other Jews who aren’t practicing to the standard they like.
In this case, the difference is… a few traditions, different passages in some ceremonies, different pronunciations of some words. Little things. Only the ultra-orthodox would think this is worth fighting rather than gossiping about, but they’d much rather fight each other than Christians.
EDIT – I didn’t even want to get INTO Kosherate, Ella. You could write books on it – and people have, come to think of it. There are probably some in this house.
ellaesther
I actually came here to ask:
Why not a JRT and a cat?
I suppose if I read the comments though, I might find out….
TaMara (formerly Bad Horse's Filly)
@Emma: This.
Arguingwithsignposts - ipod touchs
@ellaesther:
yeah, I gathered some of that from the NPR report. But i also thought they were talking about state-sponsored schools. If that is the case, it seems indefensible to allow such segregation.
They could just fund their own private education system.
Like I said, I don’t know enough to make a truly informed comment, but it’s a subject of interest.
Also, one report noted how much power the ultra orthodox had despite their small number wrt populTion. I started experiencing fundamentalism flashbacks!
Keith G
@Scott: Scott, that Alpha packer leader stuff is not borne out by the current research done by canine behaviorists. It sells books so it is still around, like fad diets, but it is rather useless.
eemom
Is the Ashkenazi-Sephardic refusal to associate mutual? I could be wrong, but I’ve had the impression it was more like the Ashkenazis shunning the Sephardics.
4jkb4ia
They said.
They said Ron Artest was a bad signing for the Lakers.
Expression on Ron Artest’s face joyous sight to behold.
I endorse all the comments on Ashkenazim/Sephardim. I would have answered it that different minhagim (customs) and basic legal texts can be very powerful, although some of the Sephardic ones have crossed over to the Ashkenazic side. It is easy to look at a simple minhag like not eating gebrokts (moistened matzah) on Passover and say, “These people are NUTS!” even if it doesn’t extend to not wanting your kids to go to school with their kids.
ellaesther
@Arguingwithsignposts – ipod touchs:
They could just fund their own private education system. – LOL! As the kids say. Oh, what a nerve you have touched!
One of the biggest, most intractable problems of life in Israel is the inordinate amount of power that is in religious hands. The state-sponsored schools in question are religious in nature — because God forbid they should go to school with non-Orthodox kids — and the ultra-Orthodox communities are entirely supported by the state, in exchange for the support of their political parties in coalition governments. The ultra-Orthodox don’t pay taxes, they don’t serve in the military, and many of the men don’t work, spending their days studying Torah. Their philosophy is that that IS socially relevant work, that they are covering our sinning asses by doing this soul-wrestling for us, but you can imagine how popular that attitude is with the majority of Israelis.
Indeed, the modern Orthodox (who have their OWN kind of state-sponsored schools, BTW) are at least as horrified by the ultra-Orthodox as are secular Israeli Jews. The modern Orthodox are full-fledged members of society and don’t expect everyone else to pick up after them. They tend to be pretty intensely right-wing (not all, but a large majority), but I can’t begrudge them their influence, because they actually play the role that citizens are meant to play in their own country.
Shalimar
@Anne Laurie: Lucy adores me, so I shouldn’t have any problem taking her to the vet and hopefully finding a home for her through him that doesn’t have any other pets. As for the puppies, she has them under the house so I don’t even know how many are left (she killed 2, either because they were sick or she was nursing too many). But I can get under there if I bring good light with me to watch for snakes, so I will hopefully socialize them before putting an ad in the nearby town papers. They are roughly 4 weeks now.
We’re in the middle of nowhere, so there are no rescue groups that I know of. I do know of a no-kill shelter 90 miles away as a last resort for the puppies. There isn’t anything I can do for the cats at the new house, though I do feed them.
4jkb4ia
4jkb4ia’s Husband: “I’m not answering this because it contributes to sinas chinam”. 4jkb4ia’s Husband attended a Sephardic shul when he lived in Beersheva ten years ago.
Polish the Guillotines
For what it’s worth, I’ve got a cat (Ling) snugged up against me right now who my wife “rescued” from a co-worker that decided to bring home a couple of JRTs. They terrorized her plenty.
After two solid weeks camped out under our bed (only coming out at night), Ling finally began to loosen up. But she’d park herself on the back of the couch where she had a clear line of sight down the hallways. P(JRT)TSD.
She’s long past that now, and very affectionate, but Ling’s experience would lead me to vote to spare Tunch.
Uloborus
@ellaesther:
Wow. See, I know very little about how things have played out in Israel, only American Judaism. I guess the system, its prejudices and its little games, have played out all the way. I’m actually kind of scared, because the Jews I know (in my family, even) are too orthodox for my comfort, and they’re not *that* orthodox. I don’t want to imagine what a tigh- I mean, how obsessively religious someone in that community must be. I thought it was bad enough when my brother got an arranged marriage.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
I am watching the beginning of Die Hard 2 right now and it’s really funny looking at the pre 9/11 airport stuff. The old lady sitting next to Bruce Willis’ wife just brandished her taser while on the airplane!
SIA
@eemom:
Yes, I felt a spiteful enjoyment thinking about that as he spewed his bitter sh*t. Yuk, yuk, yuk. I think even the Morning Ho’s were kind of shocked.
Fern
I agree with those who have reservations about the safety of a cat in the company of a JRT – have family experience with this one, except it involved a child and a rescue JRT, not a cat.
Fern
@Mike Kay: Sore losers are about as (un)attractive as sore winners.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
@Uloborus:
Jews: the original Firebaggers ;-)
asiangrrlMN
I’m on the side of caution. Tunch’s safety, health, and well-being is of utmost importance here. What about your parents?
bsr
I think your probably worrying more than you need to. Breed traits can be overcome with good training and consistency, and honestly a fat and probably older JRT won’t be as much trouble as you expect. As the owner of the sweetest pit bull/lab mix in the world I tend to see dog breed reputations as guidelines more than hard set rules. Every dog is different, and there are many variations of behavior within a breed.
That said, if your not comfortable then get rid of her now. The longer you keep her the more it will hurt when you do part. You have nothing to feel guilty for, you saved that pups life.
Cassidy
Have had a cat and a JRT for going on 9 years together. Got both when they were young and have had no problems.
Mike Kay
@Fern: really. Today, one PUMA was hoping for Obama’s sudden death, another used racist code words. I didn’t see any sore winner call for Hillary’s death today or post sexist attacks about the secretary of state. Maybe you did.
Boo
that new lambchop is beautiful…tunch is solid!
Jenn
@eemom:
I’m sorry, but this is baloney. Are there plenty of dogs that have irresponsible breeders? Yes, and let’s shut’em down. Do I think breeding for conformation trials like Westminster is silly? Yes, personally I do. But the reality is that most of these dogs were bred for specific tasks, and there is still need for (at least some of) those tasks to be performed. And as long as we still need to perform those tasks, and have those dogs to do them, then we need to have a big enough gene pool to keep them healthy.
I’ve seen a lot of mutts make awesome companion dogs, and be excellent therapy dogs, and much much more. Some of the best dogs I’ve ever known have been shelter dogs. But if you (for example) reliably want a dog to make a half mile outrun to go pick up a band of sheep, a mutt’s just not going to cut it.
TuiMel
@bsr:
I was thinking the same thing.
On a different topic, here is some food for thought:
http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2010/06/14/ideology_press.html
eemom
@Jenn:
I’m sorry, but when you start a response like that, it extinguishes the possibility of a constructive dialogue. Good luck with the sheep farm.
asiangrrlMN
@Jenn: And how many Americans need a dog to do that? To me, it’s similar to owning an SUV claiming that you’re going to be driving over rugged terrain all the time. Sure, there are some people who do, but the vast majority of people who own SUV are doing it for style points. Breeding for a trait for work dogs? Have at it. Just don’t try to convince me that most of the breeding going on in the states is of that variety.
TuiMel
@TuiMel:
Link is to Jay Rosen post about the ideology of the “Gang of 500.”
Cam Chuang
alt text = racist
me no likey asshole.
You think you can be funny like Wonkette. Sorry asshole.
I hope the damn dog kills your cat. It’s what you deserve.
You take in one freaking street side dog and have to go all insulting racial.
Idiot.
LiberalTarian
Ah, I didn’t know about the JRT eat/attack/injure all other beings unless something unusual happens issues.
You’ve said she is a sweet dog. I am sure someone is looking for a sweet dog as a companion–who does not have cats. My parents drove hundreds of miles for the right dog, not even purebred, so I am sure you can find her a more appropriate home.
I’m sad you won’t get to play with the puppies though (if there are any). But, while she seems docile now, that might all go out the window if there are puppies. They get protective, you know.
suzanne
@bsr:
I feel this way, too. I’ve owned three Siberian Huskies (among other dogs) in my life. First one was the most loyal, steadfast, protective dog I’ve ever met. Second was hyper as fuck, would run laps around the backyard for hours on end, and bugfuck crazy, though always very, very sweet and gentle with people. Third was so fucking lazy, she’d hide under the kitchen table to avoid going for walks, and when you *did* drag her out, would literally throw herself in front of your feet so you’d trip over her and stop making her walk. All were beautiful and healthy, and very much fit the breed standard.
They’re all individuals with their own personalities. Maybe have Rosie’s temperament tested? If she’s sharing your lap with Tunch, it seems you have peace on earth. Especially if he has claws and will put her in her place if need be.
Go with your gut, though.
TrishB
@suzanne: I have two miniature schnauzers, both from the same breeder. They couldn’t be more different. Pepper is the perfect little dog who everyone loves for being sweet and mild. She’s stubborn as hell, but well mannered. She usually wants some tug of war and lap time. Tramp, heh, his new collar has hot-rod style flames for a reason. I was at my parents while they were building a deck off their kitchen door. There was a deck (8ft off the ground) with no railing or stairs yet. The screen door was closed and locked. Guess who broke through the door and off the porch to find the squirrel? Breed only tells us so much.
dumb monkey
@General Egali Tarian Stuck: You’re right, JRT’s aren’t “bad dogs”, but they’ve got an attitude & a dark side amongst other dogs which is frightening.
I have a (now old & bit slower) JRT & she grew up with an Australian Red Heeler, yet she’d put him in his place in a flash.
We’re going to get another mid-sized dog soon..
SiubhanDuinne
@Cam Chuang #103: Excuse me, you are hoping for Rosie to kill TunchV if you’re trying to be funny, I promise you it’s not working ‘cuz nobody is laughing. And if you’re serious then you are one sick horrible sociopath. And what are you ranting about Cole saying something racist?
:: shakes head ::
I mean 1(6?
Mary
@eemom: I generally agree with all of your points regarding the problems resultant from breeding. EXCEPT, in this case the behavioral issues of JRTs stem not from breeding a dog for conformation to a specific yet arbitrary physical standard, but instead stem from taking a dog that has been bred for a specific purpose and then forcing him into a lifestyle that is at odds with that purpose. JRTs are high drive because they were initially bred badger digging. Believe it or not there are plenty of working JRTs out there in the world, and I have no problems with people breeding dogs for the purpose of work. In fact, breeding for working purposes tends to result in much healthier and well adjusted animals and most working breeders know enough not to sell their animals to non-working households.
It’s very similar to the situation with border collies. True border collies are bred for their ability to work stock, not their conformation to AKC standards. Although I work in canine rescue and am devoted to my own rescued border collies, I would never look down on a serious farmer or rancher who chose to buy a dog from known working lines rather than adopt an unknown quantity. And again, the behavioral issues that some border collie owners complain of are a result of having a dog bred for a specific purpose whose talents are not taken advantage of. Working bred dogs can make very successful pets but they require a LOT of training and structured activity to channel their energy and intelligence.
debit
I do agree that breeding for a physical trait only is bad for the breed; I used to have Arabians and can attest to the fact that by focusing on breeding for a pretty face or flashy movement, sometimes temperament and soundness, the hallmarks of the breed, have been sacrificed,
And while I also agree that there are too many animals out there as a result of careless or profit driven only breeding, there is, IMO, nothing wrong with breeding toward a desired/desirable standard. (I’m sorry, but animals are not people and the eugenics angle is not applicable.) A good breeder knows what s/he is doing and does so responsibly. I used to take dressage lessons from a Lipizzan breeder. He had a couple of stallions and several mares. Only one mare had never been bred. I asked him why and he said it was that several generations back there had been a gap in her papers because of the war. He was pretty sure of her lines, but not 100 percent and so would not breed her. Period.
CynDee
@ John Cole and everybody considering a JRT: I hate to put this in here, but you have to know that even the sweetest part-JRT can be overcome with the instinct to go after “prey.”
We had a lovely Jack Russell / Beagle mix, who was the sweetest-tempered, loveliest little dog one can imagine. He was an excellent ratter, watchdog, lap companion, the most loving little guy you could imagine. At the time we had some kind of a sweetheart collie mix, just a lovely personality. We had had them about three years (both walk-ins), the collie probably formerly abused or imprisoned.
But one day my husband was out in the yard and his world changed. He witnessed these two beautiful pets visciously tearing apart a kitten. It was horrific and fast, and there was not a thing my husband could do to stop it. It was sickening and unforgettable to this day. Once something like that starts, there is no second chance for the victim. It’s over real fast, after massive agony.
There was the terrier instinct and the pack instinct at work. There was no more clearer illustration that we could never have a cat and we read that it was also not wise to have a very young puppy left with a JRT, no matter how sweet the JRT.
I’m sure that Rosie’s own puppies would not be at risk from her, but I would never leave Rosie alone with Tunch.
Surely there is a good home for Rosie; it will be more work in the short term to see that she’s well placed, but you will have the grace of knowing that you ensured the safe future of the unsuspecting Tunch, who despite everybody’s jokes, is only a big kitty who needs his safe domicile. You would all have a terrible future if something went wrong with Rosie.
It is possible that something like this would never develop with Rosie, but one can’t know; that’s the trouble.
Best of luck to a guy with one of the biggest hearts on the planet.
Mary
Just to weigh in on the issue of John, Tunch, and Rosie: I agree that you need to follow your gut and do what’s best for Tunch and Lily first and foremost. So if having Rosie around makes you uncomfortable, then you need to find another home for her.
That being said, your discomfort is based on notions about JRTs as a whole rather than on Rosie’s actual behavior. Unless she has exhibited prey drive that you haven’t mentioned here, it sounds like she’s a total couch potato.
DZ
@Cam Chuang: Fuck you, asshole.
Chris Johnson
$20 says, IF YOU KEEP the pregnant JRT, once she has puppies, Tunch dies, possibly also Lily.
You seriously are going to keep a strange dog, with puppies to defend, in your house? With other animals she was not raised with? Don’t go all liberal wishywashy unrealistic on us.
Read the poster who posted about the kitten again :(
wonkie
@Jenn:
Hi Jenn,
The number of people who can legitimately argue that they need a pruebred for some specific job is microscopic. Breeders use this rationalization to over produce border collies, greyhounds, cattle dogs…If that’s the only rationalization left to justify breeding dogs, then I agree with the person upthread who stated that there are no responsible breeders.
The best thing that could happen to dogs is a five or six year moratorium on the production of puppies.
Yep. I’m in agreement: there are no responsible breeders, only degrees of irresponsiblity.
John Cole
@Cam Chuang: Someone has never seen Full Metal Jacket.
John Cole
@Chris Johnson: She isn’t pregnant.
JCT
Go with your gut, John– find her another home (and that will assuage any lingering guilt). Heaven forfend that Rosie annoyed Tunch one day, earned a swat and a conflagration ensued. You would never forgive yourself. Tunch has seniority. The risk was less with sweet Lily because you knew she had spent considerable time with cats (to say the least). You just do not know with Rosie and ignorance in this case could lead to tragedy. As others have said, Rosie may be fine now because she is acquiescing to the established order as a newcomer. But as she gets more comfortable, things can change.
FWIW, as i have commented before, we have a pure-bred beagle (from a hunting line, no less, rough coat and all) and an older beagle mix. The breeder commented that while the beagle was exceptionally sweet natured, she may chase cats. So we carefully explained to our son (who had lost his previous and much-beloved beagle to cancer) that the new beagle was on “probation” as the 2 cats were there first. And we proceeded to fence off the second floor for the cats. This worked out (with much supervision) as the rather elderly cats preferred to live upstairs and the naughty, food obsessed beagles were not allowed upstairs unsupervised anyway. But if this hadn’t been possible, we wouldn’t have risked it.
As a postscript, after the elderly cats passed away (and my husband decreed NO MORE CATS) — he of course found a starving kitten mewling in a fast-food parking lot about to be run over. Brought him home and after one incident where the younger beagle got a little too excited to play with the cat and sustained a nasty lip scratch (don’t ask what that cost to fix) — they became the best of friends. They sleep together, share a water dish and the cat goes on walks with both beagles, much to the amazement of our entire neighborhood… people call their spouses outside to marvel at the 3 of them on their walks…
Nothing beats animal harmony, but it can be hard-won.
Chris Johnson
She’s not? You said you were in trouble for bringing home pregnant bitches ;)
Still don’t agree with the soppy ‘everybody will be friends’ thing, but that chilled out my worries a bit. I just think you’re more responsible than this. Adopting strange dogs that randomly jump into your car is TOO liberal, man ;)
Paul in KY
Wouldn’t Tunch kick that dog’s ass? I know my big male would. Is Tunch really old now?
You Don't Say
@Paul in KY: Dogs kill or injure far more cats than cats hurt dogs. Ask anyone who works in a shelter.
josefina
@Shalimar: Thanks so much for doing what you can to help Lucy and her pups. If you need help with the vet bill, I can pitch in some.
How does Petfinder work? Could you post something there? The ASPCA has a shelter database on their contact page; maybe there’s something close-ish to you.
muddy
An odd blog. Previously most posts said, Yay John, gotta new pup, everyone so happy together! Names, puppies, we know you’d break down and take her in 5 minutes! Awww… Today most posts say, JRT so vicious, will kill all others, get her out of there, how dare you be so cavalier with poor Tunch.
Is she even known to be a JRT or is she some small mutt whose appearance trends that way and JRT is being said due to there being other JRTs around? And have those JRTs threatened Tunch or Lily or each other? Don’t matter, some new dogs fit in like a place was being held for them, and some new dogs, not JRT or anything approaching scary, go nuts and kill the cat.
My Lab is horrified of water and will walk around a puddle. He doesn’t know nor care what his genes “insist” he do.
Seriously though, it’s like there is a totally different community posting here from one day to the next. I’d say bipolar except that’s offensive to those with bipolar disorder.
debit
@muddy: You can’t understand how a person could change their mind after obtaining new information or seeing a different perspective? How odd.
Chris Johnson
I wasn’t posting in that thread. Hell, I was pretty startled when he picked up Lily even, but there’s a big difference: Lily started out so submissive that she had to be brought out of herself and taught to play and stuff. That’s not a personality that’s going to come into a house and kill the cat.
This new dog has such a strong personality she jumped right in John’s car, took Tunch’s blanket (or something like that, I forget the detail), without a hesitation, or so it appeared. To me, that says somebody thinks she can be the #1 pet, and if she’s a JRT, she can do a lot of damage very quickly.
I don’t like how quickly all that happened. It says on the one hand John was over-ready to go along with this dog’s plan, and on the other hand, that dog is no sucker. I have an old cat like that. She adopted me with obsessive, tyrannnical determination, fusses over me and follows me around like a puppy, but it’s a very good thing that she is insanely old and tiny and frail, because she attacks the other cats very often. They put up with it, and anyway she hasn’t got teeth.
Rosie- she got attitude AND teeth ;P
Lynn Sutherland
My JRT Wrigley (granted, she is a mix) has lived with cats all of her 14 years. She will groom and clean them if they let her, but our last cat (we are down to one from seven-all died of “old age” ) is a 6 pound version of Tunch–Emmy Lou hides behind the bend in the stairs and under the table and rushes out to attack Wrigley when she passes. The poor dog yelps, puts her tail between her legs and runs to me for help. It seems to me that if Rosie were going to be aggressive, you would have seen signs of that right away. The real danger would be if she and Lily were get together in a pack and attack Tunch and I sure can’t see that happening. I’m not an expert, but I had a pet care business in Chicago for 14 years and I kept my clients (dogs, which included JRT’s as well as Wrigley) and my cats together with no incidents. My 22 lb. cat Arthur used to be part of the pack that greeted me at the door. I would check with your vet (or call Cesar Millan) before you give up Rosie for that reason.
Chris Johnson
No way- the real danger is Rosie thinking she’s the alpha dog- which would be easy as Lily is not apparently very fierce- and she is already on that path, not any other path. I’d be more reassured if she was in dominance fights with say Lily and LOSING. I suspect there have been no challenges to her authority as new top dog at all so there’s been no reason for Rosie to be aggressive.
Likewise, if she was running to John with tail between her legs for help, or coming into the house and hiding from the strange smells and unfamiliar animals, I’d be more reassured. But I don’t remember reading anything to that effect. She came in and took over. Bad sign. What happens the first time someone has to say no to her? (i.e. Tunch but I’m also a bit worried about John what with the letting her jump in his car and have Tunch’s cushion and all)
eemom
I think everyone needs to chill with the obsessive behaviorist theorizing, which I doubt anyone here is actually qualified to do (correct me if I’m wrong).
As for the stories about dogs and cats, good and bad, that’s all anecdotal and doesn’t prove squat one way or the other about this particular dog.
I trust that John has better sense than to listen to all this neurotic bloviating, and that he’ll do what’s best for all concerned.
Paul in KY
@You Don’t Say: But that’s generally when there is a size disparity. My male cat weighs 19 pounds & he’s not fat. That dog is no bigger than him (smaller, actually).
Dogs usually don’t like their eyes clawed out. Now, if the dog did a sneak attack, I can see where it could do serious or fatal damage.
JMC_in_the_ATL
@eemom: I’m sorry, but when you refer to “neurotic bloviating,” it extinguishes the possibility of a constructive dialogue. Good luck with the double standards.
eemom
@JMC_in_the_ATL:
Who wants to engage in a constructive dialogue with some loser who shows up for the first time at the bottom of the thread?
muddy
To debit #124:
How odd I am! I have never ever changed my mind on any issue in my entire life! I am the fucking oddest ever. Screw you.
If the dog was JRT yesterday it was JRT today. But yesterday the preponderance of posts were all “take the dog in, she’s perfect for your family” and today the majority are “get rid of the cat killer”. What changed? Was there a cat attack? No, John just mused that no JRT could be allowed to attack his Tunch.
John is clearly going back and forth in his thinking on the issue, as any rational person would, I was just commenting on how the comment trend followed right along, it was interesting.
The dog had the same personality, size, probable breed both days, it was kind of funny to me that the general run of comments would change on a dime like that. I mean, it was so “odd”….
JMC_in_the_ATL
Oh, eemom, I love how you always wait for the bottom of a thread to let your spineless hypocritical troll flag fly.
/golf clap