It Makes Sense!

If you are a sociopath:

SCHUMER: The Palestinian people still don’t believe in the Jewish state, in a two-state solution. More do than before, but a majority still do not. Their fundamental view is, the Europeans treated the Jews badly and gave them our land — this is Palestinian thinking […] They don’t believe in the Torah, in David […] You have to force them to say Israel is here to stay. The boycott of Gaza to me has another purpose — obviously the first purpose is to prevent Hamas from getting weapons by which they will use to hurt Israel — but the second is actually to show the Palestinians that when there’s some moderation and cooperation, they can have an economic advancement. When there’s total war against Israel, which Hamas wages, they’re going to get nowhere. And to me, since the Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas, while certainly there should be humanitarian aid and people not starving to death, to strangle them economically until they see that’s not the way to go, makes sense.

At least we are done pretending that this is about weapons. This is collective punishment for having the audacity to vote for Hamas. And I wonder where Hamas got its start?

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172 replies
  1. 1
    salacious crumb says:

    ince the Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas, while certainly there should be humanitarian aid and people not starving to death, to strangle them economically until they see that’s not the way to go, makes sense.

    I mean isnt this pretty much the justification Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups has been giving to the world for 9/11. That the Americans elect people who wage war and overthrow governments around the world, and support Israel and that their taxes support Israel, so its ok it kill Americans. Does Schumer even see the irony in any of comments?

  2. 2
    babieca says:

    Embargos and blockades have worked so well at effecting political change in Cuba, North Korea, Iraq, etc. How could it possibly not work?

    Hamas are douchebags, putting Palestinians under siege will only work to make those douchebags more popular.

  3. 3
    PeakVT says:

    Fuck Chuck Schumer.

  4. 4
    El Cid says:

    As Juan Cole reminded us, Muslims actually do believe ‘in’ the Torah and David.

    Both Christianity and Islam include the five books of Moses among their sacred texts. However, in both religions they lack the religious legal significance that they have in Orthodox Judaism…
    __
    Islam draws heavily upon the Torah for Islamic concepts, teachings, and history of the early World.[39] from which it also derives that the Arab people are descended from Abraham’s first son Ishmael, the half-brother of Isaac.
    __
    Muslims call the Torah the Tawrat and consider it the word of Allah given to Moses. However, Muslims also believe that this original revelation was corrupted (tahrif) over time by Jewish scribes[40] and hence do not revere the present Jewish version Torah as much. A number of verses from the Qur’an are claimed to refer to Muhammed as the promised prophet to be found in the Torah.[41] The Torah in the Qur’an is always mentioned with respect in Islam. The Muslims’ belief in the Torah, as well as the Prophethood of Moses, is one of the fundamental tenets of Islam.

    The problem, for Chuck Schumer addressing this crowd, is that they don’t believe that this ancient book makes it ‘our land’ (people of Jewish descent and/or religion).

  5. 5
    tommybones says:

    “And I wonder where Hamas got its start?”

    Johann Hari:

    “The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon’s senior advisor Dov Weisglass was unequivocal about this, explaining: “The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians… Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely.”

    Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders – so they voted for Hamas. … It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 percent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 percent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.

    Rather than seize this opportunity and test their sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. They announced they were blockading the Gaza Strip in order to “pressure” its people to reverse the democratic process. They surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival.”

  6. 6
    El Cid says:

    Greenwald highlights President John McCain pointing out the utter evilness of the Iranian regime.

    Is it any wonder that this is the same regime that spends its people’s precious resources not on roads, or schools, or hospitals, or jobs that benefit all Iranians — but on funding violent groups of foreign extremists who murder the innocent?

    Good thing we here spend our precious resources on roads and schools and hospitals and jobs which benefit all Americans, instead of murdering the innocent abroad.

  7. 7
    Dave says:

    This is collective punishment for having the audacity to vote for Hamas.

    They didn’t. Hamas launched a coup which resulted in Hamas thugs throwing members of Fatah off the tops of buildings.

    Besides, hasn’t John Cole spent the last few years warning of the consequences to the American people of a John McCain victory in the last elections, or from the policies of George Bush?

    Surely what is good for the goose is good for the gander?

    Oh wait. Gazans are brown people and thus nothing but helpless robots who were forced into supporting a fascist genocidal milita by the evil Israels and the West and thus denied moral autonomy by John Cole’s raging white-man’s-burden racism.

  8. 8
    joe from Lowell says:

    Most of the residents of the Gaza strip are children. Schumer is taking about “strangling” children.

  9. 9
    Riggsveda says:

    And I wonder where they got the idea to have the elections that ended in Hamas winning? Oh, yeah…Bush-Cheney. Guess democracy only counts when the outcome is politically correct.

  10. 10
    Amir_Khalid says:

    Yes, I know I’m stating the obvious: it’s precisely because of sentiments like Schumer’s that we in the Muslim world don’t take the US seriously as an honest broker in the Middle East. And no matter how likable we find Obama, or how much we recognize him as a semi-insider (with his family ties to Islam and all that), we know he can’t shift such attitudes within one presidential term or two, let alone a year and a half.

  11. 11
    Dave says:

    So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.

    John Hari is a liar (not a surprise to anyone this side of the Atlantic – he makes Robert Fisk look honest).

    Hamas never offered anything (a one-year “hudna” is NOT a ceasefire by any stretch of the imagination), and in fact refused to honor all past agreements between the Palestinian Government and Israel.

  12. 12
    joe from Lowell says:

    Gazans are brown people and thus…

    So weak. Like, “Ted Kennedy and Pat Leahy hate Catholics” weak.

    When conservatives play a race card, it’s like a monkey who’s gotten hold of a field researcher’s cell phone, and is trying to imitate how she used it.

  13. 13
    Michael says:

    @Dave:

    So which Washington DC area restaurant did you hit last night? I know there’s lots of great ones, and for lobbying staffers, there are lots of free drinks and glad handing going on…..

  14. 14
    cleek says:

    It’s okay to punish Palestinians
    ‘Cause they don’t have any feelings

    Something in the way, mmm
    Something in the way, yeah, mmm

  15. 15
    AhabTRuler says:

    @Dave:

    good for the gander?

    And you do love a proper gander, don’t you?

  16. 16
    joe from Lowell says:

    You’ll be stunned to discover Dave doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

    Hudna in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

    In English, the term is most frequently used in reference to a cease-fire agreement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, particularly one that would involve organizations such as Hamas. The concept of hudna was introduced to the conflict by the Israeli businessman Eyal Erlich in 2001, after seeing a hudna being declared in order to calm a feud in Jordan (cf. Haaretz, January 2, 2002); he and some others proposed, unsuccessfully, that Israel should suggest a mutual hudna as a prelude to a more lasting peace.

  17. 17
    middlewest says:

    They don’t believe in the Torah, in David

    Neither do I. I wonder if Schumer thinks I deserve to be punished. Maybe I’ll call his office and ask on Monday.

  18. 18
    Crusty Dem says:

    Enthusiastically supporting a policy that starves a million+ people to “teach them a lesson” = totally acceptable

    Saying that Israel is not a legitimate state and it’s people should leave the region = immediate defenestration

    To me, both statements/sentiments are completely unacceptable, but it’s notable that only one has negative consequences.

  19. 19
    John Cole says:

    Does someone want to go through the threads last week and find where Dave was emphatically stating that this was all about weapons? Because that would be fun.

  20. 20

    @Dave:

    Gazans are brown people and thus nothing but helpless robots who were forced into supporting a fascist genocidal milita by the evil Israels and the West and thus denied moral autonomy by John Cole’s raging white-man’s-burden racism.

    Wow. I’m not sure how one would stage a defense against such a tirade.

  21. 21
    sukabi says:

    For a US Senator, who took an oath to uphold our Constitution, that states in it that we have freedom of and from religion to basically advocate the death of a people (either literally or economically) because they don’t believe in HIS god and His book is beyond the pale. At the very least he should be censured… personally, I’d like to see him expelled from the Senate for that crap… but yes, I know even a tiny, private rebuke isn’t on the table for one of our “betters”.

    This whole thing illustrates how little respect he has for our Constitution and by extension the people of THIS country, and could explain some of his votes in favor of his other people, the Wall Street Banker crowd and his willingness to strangle the lower and middle classes of this country until we submit.

  22. 22
    Svensker says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    This is what has me so pissed off (altho it’s become a permanent state these days, very exhausting).

    So I’ll wait for Gater90 and eemom and Brachiator, et al, to come along and call for Schumer to resign. I imagine I’ll have a fairly long wait.

  23. 23
    Emma says:

    Dave, you’re not convincing anyone. And every time you post someone rebuts you and you shift your ground and try again. Tell me, do you get paid for it or are you into sadomasochism?

  24. 24
    New Yorker says:

    @cleek:

    Nicely done.

    Also, Chuckie, why on earth should we take seriously the idea that Israel supports a two-state solution when Netanyahu is prone to babbling about eternal rights to “Samaria” and “Judea”, two words that have about as much relevance to 21st century geopolitics as “Tiwanaku” and “Caledonia”? Who the fuck cares about believing in David and the Torah when it comes to international diplomacy?

    This is why this conflict will never be solved: two groups of people both claiming universal rights to a piece of land because…..well, because some ancient books told them it belongs to them. Unreal.

  25. 25
    wengler says:

    People make very rational decisions while being “economically strangled”. Like that guy that ran his plane into the IRS building.

    The Israeli government would love to put the Palestinians somewhere else, but no one else wants them. So Israel is walling them off instead and trying to make them as miserable as possible so they somehow leave. This strategy isn’t going to work, but the Israeli government isn’t really inclined to think outside the box for one that will. As long as they insist on having Israel-Palestine be a Jewish majority state under Jewish rule they are going to have to keep the occupation, the harassment, the punitive raids, the “targeted” assassinations, and the massacre of men, women and children.

    I wonder if Schumer thinks that Jewish Americans like himself, born in Brooklyn, should have more right to live on farmland in the West Bank than a displaced Palestinian family that had been farming there for countless generations? Because current Israel state policy says he does.

  26. 26

    @Amir_Khalid:

    As a non-Jew and non-Muslim, I sometimes get confused with all the posturing that takes place in print in this country.

    If your non-Muslim neighbors sometimes seem to be unresponsive to you, it may be that they are not unfeeling. Perhaps they are totally befuddled by the ever-shifting scene in front of them.

    It did help clear my mind to realize that in the eastern end of the Mediterranean is full of jerks of all description.

    Off with their heads.

    [walks off shaking her head]

  27. 27
    Cacti says:

    They don’t believe in the Torah? *gasp*

    I hate to break your heart Senator, but the Torah is a dusty old collection of Hebrew cultural myths with a sprinkling of historicity.

    Abraham and Moses – probably never existed

    The Exodus – never happened

    King David – minor tribal leader

  28. 28
    eemom says:

    so much hate. That’s why this mess is so hopeless.

    I don’t know how much Schumer or Anthony Weiner believe what they’re saying. I do know that it’s political suicide for a NY Dem to not be aggressively pro-Israel. And that’s not because of big bad AIPAC, it’s because their constituents are aggressively pro-Israel.

    Weiner got bitten by a goat last week, also too.

  29. 29
    New Yorker says:

    I suppose I should be glad that other people don’t use ancient religious myths to back up their competing claims to land. Imagine if Bolivians claimed that Pachamama promised them the northern coast of Chile in some ancient book, and thus they launched rockets into Arica whenever they get the chance (along with the occasional suicide bombing in Santiago).

    In response, Chile’s government cited Jesus telling them that the land was theirs, and they used that as a justification to blockade Bolivia completely after leveling La Paz with a helicopter attacks and artillery.

  30. 30
    Svensker says:

    @New Yorker:

    This is why this conflict will never be solved: two groups of people both claiming universal rights to a piece of land because…..well, because some ancient books told them it belongs to them. Unreal.

    Actually, only one group is claiming that. The rest of the folks just want their houses back.

  31. 31
    Cacti says:

    I also rather doubt that Schumer would be equally accepting of the religious view that…

    Jewish suffering is a result of their rejection of Jesus, their true king and Messiah.

  32. 32
    mcd410x says:

    Just for the record, if you have a sentence with a comparison, it goes like this: Though, not as smart as she.

    It’s nominative case because the “is” after “she” is understood: Though, not as smart as she (is).

    Here endeth the reading.

  33. 33
    ciotog says:

    two groups of people both claiming universal rights to a piece of land because…..well, because some ancient books told them it belongs to them. Unreal

    Actually, I think most of the Palestinian claim to the land comes from the fact that they were 93% of the people living on it in 1948.

  34. 34
    Reggie Syriac says:

    per this article from the majlis, it seems like schumer is just ‘making shit up.’ multiple polls found that the majority of palestinians in west bank and gaza support 2-state solution, tho the numbers are declining. wonder why.

  35. 35
    El Cid says:

    Any of you who disagree with Chuck Schumer love Hamas and want to have its babies, you don’t appreciate the urgent need to shoot aid activists repeatedly in the head and back in international waters, and also you will soon push tiny, itty-bitty, defenseless Israel into the ocean.

  36. 36
    middlewest says:

    I love when people pretend that Israel was happy best friends with the Palestinian natives until Hamas came along, and then they were suddenly forced to adopt a belligerent attitude. What a marvelous little fairy tale.

  37. 37
    Joel says:

    Dave, just curious. Do you defend Schumer’s remarks?

  38. 38
    matoko_chan says:

    @El Cid: That is correct ……Moses is revered as an important prophet in al-Islam. The Fuṣūṣ al-Ḥikam (Ring-Settings of Wisdom) by my shayyk Ibn Arabi is a work divided into 27 chapters, each one on the particular wisdom associated with one of the prophets mentioned in the Qurʾan, Adam to Jesus (Issa).

  39. 39
    New Yorker says:

    @Svensker:

    That might be true for Fatah, and any other secular Palestinian group, but I’m rather certain that Hamas would, if they could, exterminate every Jew in Israel.

  40. 40
    PeakVT says:

    The other Cole weighs in on Schumer. ETA: So does Greenwald.

  41. 41
    kay says:

    The Palestinian people still don’t believe in the Jewish state,

    They don’t believe in the Torah, in David

    I don’t know that strangling people until they “believe” is going to work.
    What an odd and revealing choice of word. Not recognize, not acknowledge, not even accept, but “believe”.
    There is no way they can meet this standard and remain who they are. It’s an impossible-to-meet condition. I don’t even know how they’d prove they “believe”. I can’t imagine.

  42. 42
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: No one can be a serious broker of peace in MENA until the injustice to muslims of Israel’s creation is acknowledged, and until Israel begins to act as a just nation.
    Obama, in trying to freeze settlements, is trying to get Israel to act justly.

  43. 43
    Svensker says:

    @New Yorker:

    That’s quite an assumption you’re making.

  44. 44
    matoko_chan says:

    @kay: the gazans are being punished for acting democratically.
    Hamas was elected in a fair democratic election, monitored by the UN.
    Bush and the Israelis didn’t like the result.

  45. 45
    matoko_chan says:

    @Cole

    If you are a sociopath:

    SCHUMER: The Palestinian people still don’t believe in the Jewish state, in a two-state solution. More do than before, but a majority still do not. Their fundamental view is, the Europeans treated the Jews badly and gave them our land — this is Palestinian thinking […] They don’t believe in the Torah, in David […]

    Or a retard.
    David (Dawud) is a prophet in the Qu’ran.

  46. 46
    kay says:

    @matoko_chan:

    the gazans are being punished for acting democratically.

    Well, yes, I read Senator Schumer’s statement so I get that.

    I recognize he’s probably pandering to religious fundamentalists in this particular speech, but how in the world does he think people outside that room are going to interpret his statement that people in Gaza have to “believe” and that “you have to force them to say Israel is here to stay”?

    He sounds exactly like conservative fundamentalist Christians within the Bush Administration.

  47. 47
    Colonel Danite says:

    So I’m sure that Sen Schumer approved of the Spanish Inquisition. After all, they were only torturing and killing Jews until they believed what was true and proper.

  48. 48
    Larkspur says:

    So the beatings will continue until morale improves.

    Yep, I’m gonna need a bigger spaceship. Something in the refurbished Firefly class.

  49. 49
    Reggie Syriac says:

    @New Yorker: whoa bro, u must have spent a lot of time in gaza 2 make such a statement. def have respect for yr skillz and wide breadth of ‘knowledge.’ when did u start learning arabic? is yr master’s degree/ph.d./post-doc work in middle east studeez, international relaish, anthro, what?

  50. 50

    Schumer is bought and paid for by Israel and the financial industry. His comments were stupid and offensive, and he should resign. Being a politician with no moral code other than remaining in office, he won’t.

  51. 51
    wrb says:

    And Chuck sounds shocked that there are people who don’t believe that their personal god gave them land for all perpetuity.

    What next, Santa Claus doubters?

  52. 52
    K. says:

    Yes, John, Hamas is a righteous organization. You are right.

  53. 53
    K. says:

    @Dave:

    Thanks for your efforts but John Cole sees the world in black and white and good and evil. His definitions of such change drastically with time but his limitations remain and his cheerleaders give him no reason to question himself.

  54. 54
    Corner Stone says:

    @Reggie Syriac: Damn. Lolspeak is spreading faster than anticipated.
    We may have a problem here.

  55. 55
    Crusty Dem says:

    The Middle East problem can be basically summed up as two groups who hate each other and whose actions are essentially unregulated by any rational forces. One group has nothing, no resources, and no powerful allies (and therefore, nothing to lose); the other has the land, powerful weapons, and powerful allies (with no risk of losing them in response to poor behavior). Additionally, the most extreme acts from either side only result in increased support from their own faction, effectively rewarding the worst behavior (and powers extremists on both sides, as seen from suicide bombings, the rocket attacks, the blockade and the flotilla debacle).

    Without motivation to improve behavior, the downward spiral will continue indefinitely. But we lack the ability to motivate the Palestinians and the political will to counter the Neocon Israelis. Clearly, the obvious solution is

  56. 56
    Corner Stone says:

    @Colonel Danite:

    So I’m sure that Sen Schumer approved of the Spanish Inquisition.

    Well, nobody expected that.

  57. 57
    Amir_Khalid says:

    @matoko_chan: I agree. It seems to me that the creation of the modern Israel was one of the bigger mistakes of the post-WWII order. They were given the land from under another people’s feet, given it by a colonial power who had no right to give it away. Just look at all the grief that has resulted.

    I don’t argue for the dissolution of Israel, as I know some still do. There are already two or three generations of Israelis who don’t have another country to go “back” to. But as it is, I don’t foresee Israel surviving beyond the next generation. It will either sink (further) into apartheid, and we know where that led the old South Africa; or it will succumb to its inherent demographic unsustainability, and disappear from the map like the old Crusader kingdoms.

  58. 58
    matoko_chan says:

    @kay: minority whip.

    Reaching out to the Muslim world may help in creating an environment for peace in the Middle East, but we must insist as Americans that our policies be firmly grounded in the beliefs of the Judeo-Christian tradition upon which this country was founded.

  59. 59
    Athenae says:

    @wengler:

    People make very rational decisions while being “economically strangled”. Like that guy that ran his plane into the IRS building.

    First of all, don’t lets slander Gaza’s residents by comparing them to anti-tax creeps.

    The Israeli government would love to put the Palestinians somewhere else, but no one else wants them.

    Well, and the larger problem is that it shouldn’t be up to the Israeli government where to “put” the Palestinians at all. They’re not Fischer Price people, they’re human beings who want to live where they want to live. If they could be shifted around like chess pieces this wouldn’t be a thousand-year argument.

    A.

  60. 60
    Corner Stone says:

    @Amir_Khalid:

    and we know where that led the old South Africa

    Israel will host the FIFA World Cup?

  61. 61
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: Brother, at TalkIslam we discussed this extensively….and the consensus was that the creation of Israel was unjust to muslims, but just to jews. Some of the wali do have sympathy for all humans.
    ;)
    The second conclusion we arrived at, was that Israel CAN exist NOW, if it can begin to act as a just nation.
    But I agree…Israel cannot survive by continuing its current policies.
    Like the Prophet said…..

    A nation can survive without god, but a nation cannot exist without justice.

  62. 62
    liberal says:

    OT: Where does TUNCH fit in?

    Cats are a big part of my life, so I read Grandin’s chapter on felines with unusual concentration. I was a little dismayed, therefore, to discover that “animal behaviorists and ethologists don’t know as much about cats and their emotions as we do about other domestic animals.” I thought I knew my cats pretty well, but Grandin surprised me by having much of great interest to say about these superbly sensual, mysterious creatures. One bare fact that had hitherto escaped me is that there are two basic cat personalities—bold and shy—which are associated with coat color. Black cats, it turns out, are usually laid-back, while tortoiseshells are the typical “scaredy cats.” I live with a black and a tortoiseshell cat (known respectively as the Captain and Bernadette), who could be models for this: the Captain is as solid as a rock, his aura of calm spreading far and wide, while Bernadette has been known to take fright at her own tail. Both, incidentally, had identical upbringings from kittenhood.

    It turns out that coat color in cats may be associated with genetic changes that confer a defense against feline AIDS, and that in turn are linked to behavioral traits. In cities, where cat populations are high, the spread of feline AIDS (which is contracted through scratches and bites) is greatly facilitated. Black cats tend to predominate in such environments. Orange toms, found in certain studies to be more aggressive than black cats, die early because they spend too much time fighting (thereby exposing themselves to feline AIDS), while the laid-back black toms just lounge about, waiting for their turn to mate. There is so much in Animals Make Us Human that is thoughtful and deeply insightful that anyone who eats meat, or has a pet, would be well advised to read it.

  63. 63
    Shalimar says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    Clearly, the obvious solution is

    Nuke the whole world so everyone will finally stop fighting?

  64. 64
    cmorenc says:

    @John Cole:

    If you are a sociopath:

    The culture and environment of the middle east warps people into becoming ruthless sociopaths. It’s the remarkable ones who manage to rise above and beyond it, and they are too few. There’s no powerful Nelson Mandela-type character who’s inarguably earned his standing for toughness and justice for his people, who manages show his people how to magnanimously rise above their justified resentments.

  65. 65
    El Cid says:

    @New Yorker:

    I’m rather certain that Hamas would, if they could, exterminate every Jew in Israel.

    True or not, there are a lot of people around the world who would eliminate whole peoples and races if they were given magic powers to do so.

    Since there is currently no power within or next to Israel that has any real world power to threaten its existence as a nation-state, why would this matter?

    I’m sure quite a few Chechen separatists would wish Russians dead, but they aren’t able to get their wishes, either.

  66. 66
    liberal says:

    @matoko_chan:

    Obama, in trying to freeze settlements, is trying to get Israel to act justly.

    Trying?

  67. 67
    liberal says:

    @K.:

    Thanks for your efforts but John Cole sees the world in black and white and good and evil.

    LOL!

    As they say in Japan, “It’s mirror time!”

  68. 68
  69. 69
    liberal says:

    @cmorenc:

    The culture and environment of the middle east warps people into becoming ruthless sociopaths.

    But a lot of the people JC is presumably referring to live in the US, not the middle east.

  70. 70
    matoko_chan says:

    @Larkspur:

    Something in the refurbished Firefly class.

    nah–too small…..better make it a settlement colony barge.
    The problem is, just like on Harlan’s World, we will always carry all our human baggage with us, encoded in our (altered carbon) genes and D.H. (digitized human) personality imprints.

  71. 71
    liberal says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    Additionally, the most extreme acts from either side only result in increased support from their own faction…

    It’s worse than that. AFAICT there’s a definite strategy on the part of Israel to crush Palestinian moderates, more so than Palestinian extremists. Not to mention that the Palestinians are thoroughly infiltrated, individuals blackmailed, etc etc by the Israelis. Makes COINTELPRO look like a nursery school game.

  72. 72
    Reggie Syriac says:

    @Corner Stone: just trying 2 write n a style that most americans r accustomed 2 reading. kinda hope it will help me 2 reach the widest demographic. think it is an ‘alinsky tactic.’

  73. 73
    MBSS says:

    the abrahamic faiths, christianity, islam, and judaism, now do not have enough in common according to our beloved chuckie schumer. they have more in common then they like to admit sometimes, and contra schumer’s idiotic statement, one of those common bonds is david.

    The Abrahamic religions (also known as Abrahamic faiths, Abrahamic traditions, religions of Abraham, Abrahamic monotheistic religions, semitic religions, Semitic monotheistic religions, and Semitic one god religions, etc.)[1] are historically the world’s three primary monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which share a common origin and values. The origins of Abrahamic religion are found in Judaism, which began in the first and second millennium BCE in ancient Israel and Judah during which time the Hebrew Bible was composed. Some 1,500 years later Christianity was formed by the Jewish followers of Jesus of Nazareth and is based primarily on the New Testament books. Islam was founded by Muhammad in the 7th century CE upon the teachings in the Quran, which commonly refers to Israelite figures like Moses and David, and also to Jesus. For some 1,300 years their histories and thought have been intertwined. They are considered inextricably linked to one another because of a ‘family likeness’ and a certain commonality in theology.[2] They are faiths that recognize a spiritual tradition identified with Abraham.[3][4][5] The sacred narratives of all three of these religions feature many of the same figures, histories and places in each, although they often present them with slightly different roles, perspectives and meanings.

    but maybe that’s not good enough for chuckie. once the palestinians convert, endorse zionism, lend a hand building new settlements, and go out and buy menorahs and kippahs, then israel may ease the blockade, and maybe give them a lil cardamom or chocolate.

  74. 74
    matoko_chan says:

    @liberal: but Tunch is a flame-point.
    not an orange tom.
    @liberal: trying.
    no freezing that i can see so far.

  75. 75
    liberal says:

    @New Yorker:

    I’m rather certain that Hamas would, if they could, exterminate every Jew in Israel.

    Likewise, I’m rather certain that many at top levels of the Israeli government would do the same to the Palestinians.

    As El Cid says, such speculation isn’t very useful.

  76. 76
    liberal says:

    @matoko_chan:
    That’s my question—he’s neither black, nor tortoiseshell, nor an orange tom. And most of whatever sociopathy he has is directed at our dear host, not at other cats.

    …adding, what’s flame-point?

  77. 77
    Gus diZerega says:

    Schumer managed to become a sociopath, or an incredibly good image of one, without living in the Middle East. Perhaps Washington, DC, has a similar impact on the morally weak?

  78. 78
    Comrade Kevin says:

    So, under how many different names is “Dave” posting now?

  79. 79
    wengler says:

    @ Athenae

    I would say electing Hamas would be one of those less than rational responses. Israel destroyed the airport and seaport facilities in Gaza long before this blockade was enacted and Hamas took over. Not to mention Gaza was the dumping ground for every opponent to the Palestinian Authority and Israel. So it electing a fundamentalist Islamic party isn’t exactly surprising.

    Barbarian regimes are the ones that starve their opponents. Israel doesn’t care for world opinion about what they do, but the US has to. We have way too many things going on all over this world to have some Senator shoot off his mouth about how starving Gazans is awesome. I certainly hope that the Obama administration repudiates this, but I’m not holding my breath and with Helen Thomas gone nobody is likely to even ask the question.

  80. 80
    Steeplejack says:

    @Reggie Syriac:

    just trying 2 write n a style that most americans r accustomed 2 reading.

    Epic fail, as I believe the yoots would say.

  81. 81
    MBSS says:

    @Reggie Syriac:

    ur convo w/ eemom waz lol. :o)

  82. 82
    salacious crumb says:

    @Amir_Khalid: Its funny, but most Israelis do not even consider themselves to be Middle Eastern/Semitic (whatever that means) , or at least definitely the Israelis of European extraction, however much they may still rage against Germany and Poland. A good chunk of Israelis are looking to immigrate to Europe, especially Germany, much to the chagrin of the Israeli govt.

  83. 83
    slag says:

    And to me, since the Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas, while certainly there should be humanitarian aid and people not starving to death, to strangle them economically until they see that’s not the way to go, makes sense.

    Ahhhh…The grand unified Suck on This theory…What could go wrong?

  84. 84
    matoko_chan says:

    @liberal: a flame point is white with orange tips. siamese are seal points usually, they have seal colored or dark brown “points”.
    i dunno if there is a behavioral correlation, this is just random coatcolor inheritance detritis from some past genetics class.

  85. 85
    licensed to kill time says:

    __

    to strangle them economically until they see that’s not the way to go, makes sense.

    Schumer their pain with his fingers
    strangle their lives with his words
    strangle them with economics
    strangling them softly ’til they see
    that’s not the way to go
    says Chuckie
    that’s not the way to be
    killing them softly

  86. 86
    Reggie Syriac says:

    @MBSS: thnx bro. just want 2 help eemom b the best eemom she can b. luv her radical ‘don’t give a shit’ tude, but sorta h8 her application of it.

  87. 87
    Onyx says:

    @middlewest:

    That’s because the history of this conflict only goes back so far as it benefits Israel. Thus everything was going well until the election, Hamas broke the cease fire and Israel wasn’t founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

  88. 88
    El Cid says:

    @Onyx: Hamas didn’t break the ceasefire. Israel did. In December of 2008 after a 26 week ceasefire. They invaded Gaza with tanks, according to the IDF, to attack a tunnel, and shot Hamas members at that point. At that point, Hamas retaliated.

  89. 89
    Brachiator says:

    @Svensker:

    So I’ll wait for Gater90 and eemom and Brachiator, et al, to come along and call for Schumer to resign. I imagine I’ll have a fairly long wait.

    See here’s your problem. I rarely call for the resignation of congresspeople about anything (if their constituents want to pull them out, that’s another thing). On the other hand, I didn’t join in any of the Helen Thomas bandwagon posts on either side (nor do I see reporters and politicians as having the same status or meriting the same attention).

    However, I noted in a number of posts that the actions of the hardliners in the Israeli government were counter-productive. And I never wrote anywhere, in any post, that the Israeli response to the flotilla was simplistically “all about weapons.”

    The statement “to strangle them economically until they see that’s not the way to go, makes sense” is despicable.

    Yagil Henkin wrote an illuminating article in the Jerusalem Post in August 2009 about the futility of the Gaza economic embargo (which, by the way, was imposed with the de facto approval of Egypt):

    Comprehensive economic sanctions can backfire; they tend to consolidate regimes. While some theories hold that sanctions cause citizens to rally around the flag, economist David Rowe, in his book Manipulating the Market, suggests a very different mechanism: sanctions give the regime total control over the distribution of goods, making the population more dependent on it and thus less likely to resist. The population cannot ruffle feathers if it wishes to eat, while Hamas can sell whatever international aid it receives. In other words, had Marie Antoinette controlled the supply of cakes in France, she could have galvanized the population to fight for her cause – and the French revolution would have waited for another opportunity. Hamas’s habitual looting of aid and food demonstrates that this is indeed the case in Gaza.

    IT IS obvious that embargoes of food and basic goods are counter-productive. The people of Gaza may or may not view Hamas as the culprit, but in any case, it is unlikely that the lack of pasta or fresh meat will goad them to overthrow their government. Furthermore, such embargoes reflect very poorly on Israel and evoke negative public opinion worldwide. They serve no purpose and thus should be lifted.

    But then again, we have our own version of this stupidity with the ongoing US embargo against Cuba.

  90. 90
    El Cid says:

    @Brachiator: Not to mention that with elected officials, their views whether fine or despicable may be quite popular with their electorate.

  91. 91
    Crusty Dem says:

    @Shalimar:

    Well, clearly you’re a demented sociopath.

    @liberal:

    That’s what I was trying to get with “empowers extremists on both sides”, but I didn’t want to dig into it to deeply.

    I was trying an old science trick I learned from some of the senior profs. When you have a problem that appears intractable, describe it as clearly as you can and pause to silently request solutions. Then decimate all suggested solutions that won’t clearly work (and alter/take credit for any that might), thus knocking others down and increasing your own (perceived) status. It’s a dick move, but fairly entertaining..

  92. 92
    matoko_chan says:

    @salacious crumb: Israel is largely divided into Ashkenazai and Mizrahi….MIzrahi are indigenous to MENA and the Ashkenazai came mostly from european jews that immigrated to MENA.

  93. 93
    Amir_Khalid says:

    @matoko_chan: Acting as a just nation, i.e. giving non-Jewish citizens the same rights as Jews, would likely lead Israel to my Door No. 2: a slow death by demographic unsustainability. Which, I think, is partly why Israel has resisted doing this.

    From what I know, spiritual legitimacy is central to Zionism and thus to Israel’s raison d’etre. Acting justly would indeed strengthen that legitimacy, but it might well jeopardize Israel’s long-term survival. And nations have always prized their survival over their ideals.

  94. 94
    Michael says:

    @John Cole:

    Does someone want to go through the threads last week and find where Dave was emphatically stating that this was all about weapons? Because that would be fun.

    Remember – he’s “in the UK” as his spoofed IP will tell you. ;D

    Once upon a time, I knew how to do that.

  95. 95
    AhabTRuler says:

    we have our own version of this stupidity with the ongoing US embargo against Cuba

    While the economic embargo against Cuba is absolutely moronic, comparisons between it and the situation in Gaza are, at best, facile.

    We do not control the borders of Cuba, we do not intercept foreign aid to Cuba, and we do not control trade with Cuba. Furthermore, as someone has recently pointed out, when we did blockade Cuba, it was with the explicit recognition that non-military material would be allowed to pass through.

  96. 96
    Corner Stone says:

    @Reggie Syriac:

    just trying 2 write n a style that most americans r accustomed 2 reading. kinda hope it will help me 2 reach the widest demographic. think it is an ‘alinsky tactic.’

    It’s understandable that you may not know much about this blog’s demographics. The overwhelming majority are in their late 30’s and above. Judging by music preferences, I’d say wayyyy above.
    And your style is irritating as hell. Engage your inner i9 and write out full words as appropriate.
    You obviously missed the recent “grammar” post absolute freaking out flamewar.

  97. 97
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: brother, i am hopeful a two-state solution can be just.

    Peter Beinart in the NY Review of Books: “In the American Jewish establishment today, the language of liberal Zionism—with its idioms of human rights, equal citizenship, and territorial compromise—has been drained of meaning.”

    But there is a different Zionist calling, which has never been more desperately relevant. It has its roots in Israel’s Independence Proclamation, which promised that the Jewish state “will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew prophets,” and in the December 1948 letter from Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, and others to The New York Times, protesting right-wing Zionist leader Menachem Begin’s visit to the United States after his party’s militias massacred Arab civilians in the village of Deir Yassin. It is a call to recognize that in a world in which Jewish fortunes have radically changed, the best way to memorialize the history of Jewish suffering is through the ethical use of Jewish power.

  98. 98
    matoko_chan says:

    @Reggie Syriac: dude, these are Old People.
    If you try to communicate in l33tspk, they get pissy and start yellin’ for you to get off their lawn.
    ‘specially Cornerstone.
    ;)

  99. 99
    Mark S. says:

    I was curious about Chuck’s previous statements on Israel:

    “I told the President, I told Rahm Emanuel and others in the administration that I thought the policy they took to try to bring about negotiations is counter-productive, because when you give the Palestinians hope that the United States will do its negotiating for them, they are not going to sit down and talk,” Schumer told Segal. “Palestinians don’t really believe in a state of Israel. They, unlike a majority of Israelis, who have come to the conclusion that they can live with a two-state solution to be determined by the parties, the majority of Palestinians are still very reluctant, and they need to be pushed to get there.

    There is so much wrong with this statement I’m not even going to bother, but I’m left with the impression that even trying to be an honest broker makes you a Nazi in Schumer’s book.

  100. 100
    maus says:

    @Dave:

    Gazans are brown people

    oh hey it’s infantalizing dave

    please, dave, tell us more about the plight of the poor browns and what is good for them

    you had such a success telling us what the persians really want, i’m fascinated to know what is to come

    @Comrade Kevin: I don’t know, if he ip matches the rest of the douchebag trolls he should just be banned along with the rest.

  101. 101
    Amir_Khalid says:

    @salacious crumb: That’s the path to Door No. 2 right there.

    BTW, I’m glad you managed to escape from Jabba’s barge in time.

  102. 102

    @Crusty Dem:

    That’s what I was trying to get with “empowers extremists on both sides”, but I didn’t want to dig into it to deeply.

    Wise. I only take a soup spoon these days to dig into this topic around here. Not much room for nuanced debate. Though it is sad for all concerned, especially on the ground in Gaza, and also to watch Israel destroy it’s self with over reaction and brutality uncalled for. Schumer confirms the worst of Israel’s current intentions and tactics on this blockade, and with the support of even some dem politicians. Hamas is winning the ancient struggle of eliminationists from both sides, by goading Israel into slow motion elimination of it’s national soul.

  103. 103
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: Door No. 2 is demographic suicide for Israel. An impossible choice.
    Door No. 1 (two-state) is the only viable solution.
    The status quo is non-viable.

  104. 104
    Brachiator says:

    @El Cid:

    Not to mention that with elected officials, their views whether fine or despicable may be quite popular with their electorate.

    I guess the degree to which one plays to the electorate is what distinguishes a statesman from a mere politician.

  105. 105
    matoko_chan says:

    @General Egali Tarian Stuck:

    /salutes General Stuck with respect, wowstyle

  106. 106
    Reggie Syriac says:

    @Corner Stone: damn. seems unchill bro. reminds me of old dudez who live in 99%-white zones but r still angry about somebody they heard speaking spanish the other day [via 5-yr-old memories of ‘the other day’].

    u may b trying 2 target a shrinking niche demo. just want 2 keep the convo relevant 2 tweens & teens who might b interested n mixing poliblogs w/their jonas bros.

  107. 107
    matoko_chan says:

    @Brachiator: waaaay deeper than that.
    The Grand Experiment of american self-governance is a tension between two sides of inherited human personality traits.

    Researchers at UofT have shown that the psychological concern for compassion and equality is associated with a liberal mindset, while the concern for order and respect of social norms is associated with a conservative mindset.

    No where in the constitution does it say that stupid, fearful, reactionary racists are denied representation. But knowledge accrues. What we see now in America is the Epic Fail of ALL conservative memes.
    1. the Free Market. The unregulated invisible hand of the market just punched America’s working class in the face. Like Dr. Pournelle says,

    I have been trying to tell people this for a long time. Unrestrained capitalism leads to child sex slaves and human flesh for sale in the market place. Very few will approve; most will condemn; but it only takes a few to take “new bold steps” in exercising their “freedom.”
    The remedy is not to regulate everything, but to use some sense in where you get your notions of justice. But that’s a matter for a much longer essay by someone in better shape than I am.
    The usual pattern of regulations leads to stagflation. No regulation leads to horrors. Astonishing! Perhaps it is time to get out Aristotle and Cicero again…

    2. the Center Right Nation. America IS a center right nation. But 50 years of boutique libertarianism and the Southern Strategy has rendered the GOP toxic to dark-skinned conservatives.
    3. a Decisive President and a Strong Defense unfortunately turned into an intellectually incurious and belligerently stupid chief executive that initiated wars of choice and is still unable to admit disastrous errors in the face of mountainous empirical evidence.
    4. the White Patriarchy Model of social cohesion is dust and ashes since blacks and women got the vote. the new model of social cohesion evolving is Social Democracy. without a viable social compact to offer minorities and women, the GOP is simply DOA as the demographic timer on non-hispanic caucs runs down.

    Empathy correlates with higher IQ. Religiosity correlates with lower IQ.
    The rightwing personality type exhibits lower empathy and extremely high religiosity.
    Scientific knowledge accrues. Eventually, the conservative personality will be proven to correlate with statistically lower IQ than the liberal one. Conservatives suspect this now. Like Julian sanchez says, modern conservatism is an inferiority complex masquerading as a political philosophy. Science and empirical data are eroding all the core conservative meme complexes with reality. I expect that when the negative correlation of IQ with conservative affiliation becomes scientific fact a broad shift in self-described party affiliation will occur.
    No one will want to be in the Stupid Party.

  108. 108
    matoko_chan says:

    @Reggie Syriac: jonas brothers? euwwwwwwwwww!
    show some class, bro.
    I’m just the last of the American Girls.

  109. 109
    Corner Stone says:

    @Reggie Syriac:

    u may b trying 2 target a shrinking niche demo. just want 2 keep the convo relevant 2 tweens & teens who might b interested n mixing poliblogs w/their jonas bros.

    Wowz. preciate that shiz yo. U k33p kickin it reel.
    lawlz

    Damn, where is JSF when I need him to translate something into pidgin.

  110. 110
    Onyx says:

    @El Cid:
    That’s exactly my point. History only goes back to Hamas firing rockets, Israel breaking the cease fire didn’t happen because history only goes back so far as it benefits Israel.

  111. 111
    handy says:

    @K.:

    Thanks for your efforts but John Cole sees the world in black and white and good and evil.

    How so? All I hear from people like Dave is “Israel should protect itself by any means necessary in accordance with whatever it perceives a threat, and the Palestinians want to exterminate Jews.” That’s about as dualistic a framework as you can get.

    It amazes me how quickly the people actually question that framework get labeled anti-Semites or terrorist sympathizers.

  112. 112
    Steeplejack says:

    @Reggie Syriac:

    Okay, now you overdid the spoof-mo.

  113. 113
    handy says:

    @MBSS: And to really throw a wrench in the whole thing, a sizable percentage of Palestinians are Christians, and have been so for a very long time.

  114. 114
    John S. says:

    @Matoko_Chan:

    There will never be a shortage of conservatives willing to belong to the ‘Stupid Party’. They wear ignorance like a badge of honor.

  115. 115
    BC says:

    The Palestinians really have a looooonnng time on that piece of land – they are likely descendants of the “Canaanites” that lived there before Abraham migrated from Ur, were there throughout the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were there when the Israelites returned from their sojourn in Egypt, were there when the Israelites were exiled to Babylon, were there when they returned from Babylon, were there when the Greeks invaded and established a beachhead, were there during the Maccabees, were there during the Romans, were there during the Jewish revolt and diaspora, were there during the Crusades, and were there when the Zionists started building a nation again. Their presence in this land is elided when Christians or Jews talk about it, but the evidence is they were always there. And I think they are taking the long view, figuring that in 50-100 years there won’t be a Jewish state because of demographics.

  116. 116
    Reggie Syriac says:

    @mabroko_chan: jonas bros, miley ‘milez davves’ cypress & justin bieberbro r the new grand funk rr: ‘we’re an american band of tween idols’

    but srsly, trying only 2 wade n2 balloojoo comments for mideast debates. 2 many rugged, authentic personal brands on display. just like 2 issue some ‘detached’ commentary 2 cut the hyperbole & histrionix [via fieldwork n mideast].

  117. 117
    eemom says:

    @Reggie Syriac:

    sorta h8 her application of it.

    tuf titez.

  118. 118
    BC says:

    As a thought experiment, think of what would have happened had Israel opened the Palestinian territories to economic expansion from the time they occupied them after the 1967 war. If there had been some enlightenment on the part of the Israeli government on how to occupy the territories, perhaps using the US occupation of Japan as an example, then maybe we would have had more peace throughout the region than there is now. Problem is, the water needed for some of the Israeli farms comes from the territories and has made it difficult for Israel to contemplate giving up control. Then the settlements began taking up more and more land from Palestinians and Israel is reluctant to contemplate how to extricate settlers from these areas.

  119. 119
    Reggie Syriac says:

    @eemom: maybe u r right. maybe i actually luv yr personal brand. can’t get enuff of how easily provoked u r despite how u ‘don’t give a shit.’ feel like u r a human substitute 4 the feeling i get when i watch the room.

  120. 120
    matoko_chan says:

    @Reggie Syriac:

    jonas bros, miley ‘milez davves’ cypress & justin bieberbro r the new grand funk rr

    not so, my bruthah!
    Those are plastic corporate psuedo-bands designed by the crygenically frozen head of Walt Disney to milk the fundage of parents of tweens.
    the bleeding edge of New Culture is synopsized in this Jack Sparrow cover of Ke$ha’s your love is my drug.

  121. 121
    Amir_Khalid says:

    @matoko_chan: Door No. 2, as I see it, would not be demographic suicide, but death arising from a congenital demographic defect.

    I would be happy to see the political entity now known as Israel continue, as long as it lived up to the founding ideals Peter Beinart describes. That’s exactly the spiritual legitimacy I’m talking about.

    But it looks inevitable that Jews will eventually be outnumbered within its borders, putting an end to the Jewish-majority Israel, so how can the Zionist ideal – and the Zionist nation – best survive when that day comes? I think that its best bet is its spiritual legitimacy, underpinned by the word of the prophets – the same prophets that its Muslim neighbors revere, as has been pointed out in this thread.

  122. 122
    bago says:

    My goodness. You have people ready to kill over the property assertions of some twit who got stuck in a desert for 40 years. Seriously.

  123. 123
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: yet there is hope, for the wali at least.

    When Ibrahim’s friends asked him how they should respond to his wishes, Ibrahim had a simple answer. He asked them to wish that next year both Israelis and Palestinians can celebrate Independence Day together, with the creation of a Palestinian state next to the Israeli one.

  124. 124
    El Cid says:

    @bago: And what’s worse, it was just a fairy tale — the Jews weren’t enslaved in Egypt, they didn’t leave in the Exodus, and they didn’t wander in the desert for 40 years. Noah’s flood was fake too, or at least no more than a regional flood from river flooding, except for very loose speculations of a giant lake dam bursting, etc.

  125. 125
    wobbly says:

    This “sociopath” will be the senior senator from the great state of New York until the day he dies or decides to spend a little more time with his family.

    In Manhattan?

    In Tel Aviv?

    Who knows? Who cares?

    And yeah, I voted for this guy a time or two, and I will again.

  126. 126
    fasteddie9318 says:

    @PeakVT:

    Fuck Chuck Schumer.

    That’s about all that needs to be said. Not only is “They don’t believe in the Torah, in David” bullshit, but even if they didn’t what fucking difference would it make? Most Jews living in Israel probably don’t believe in “Peter Pan,” but nobody would fucking starve them over it.

    But, hey, Chuck is just a believer in the white man’s burden. It’s our job, as civilized, pigmentationally-challenged parents to teach our foolish brown children how to act properly, and if that means a spanking or a grounding or a few thousand deaths, so be it.

  127. 127
    Amir_Khalid says:

    And another thing: it really bothers me to see the Israel/Palestine dispute framed as a Jews-vs-Muslims thing. Palestinians are mostly, but not all, Muslims; a minority are Christians, and they suffer along with the Muslims.

    And for the Palestinians (at least) belief and scripture are not what’s at issue here. I suspect the same might be true for secular Israeli Jews.

  128. 128
    El Cid says:

    More helpful political innovation from Arizona Republicans.

    Buoyed by recent public opinion polls suggesting they’re on the right track with illegal immigration, Arizona Republicans will likely introduce legislation this fall that would deny birth certificates to children born in Arizona – and thus American citizens according to the U.S. Constitution – to parents who are not legal U.S. citizens. The law largely is the brainchild of state Sen. Russell Pearce, a Republican whose suburban district, Mesa, is considered the conservative bastion of the Phoenix political scene. He is a leading architect of the Arizona law that sparked outrage throughout the country: Senate Bill 1070, which allows law enforcement officers to ask about someone’s immigration status during a traffic stop, detainment or arrest if reasonable suspicion exists – things like poor English skills, acting nervous or avoiding eye contact during a traffic stop…
    __
    …The question is whether that would violate the U.S. Constitution. The 14th Amendment states that “all persons, born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” It was intended to provide citizenship for freed slaves and served as a final answer to the Dred Scott case, cementing the federal government’s control over citizenship.

  129. 129
    Observer says:

    Every once upon a time believer in our “partners in peace” typically has a specific event that is what convinced them Palestinians will never be willing to recognize Israel and come to a peaceful negotiated settlement.
    (…)
    The American Secretary of State under George Bush Condoleezza Rice used the full power of her position to force Israel to pull out of the Rafiah crossing between Gaza and Egypt, while promising that international monitors would guarantee that no weapons would enter Gaza.
    (…)
    Israel left Gaza having been given guarantees by the international community that if the time came and violence flared, the international community would back up Israel’s right to self defense.

    How many non-Palestinian watchers do we have in Gaza? By non-Palestinian I mean UN, EU, US, ad nauseum.

    I see no real concern for any common Palestinian, Israeli or Arab.

    Hypocrites only, satisfied to blink at the acts of Hamas while pout raging at those who actually have to deal with the situation.

    A simple speech on Hamas part would put the full onus on Israel. Real onus, not the angst-ridden pathos of immature hypocrites who say stupid shit like “Israel has no right to exist! Genocide! Look at the bones!”

    The principles as outlined by the quartet are as follows:
    * A Palestinian state must recognize the state of Israel without prejudging what various grievances or claims are appropriate,
    * Abide by previous diplomatic agreements, and
    * Renounce violence as a means of achieving goals

  130. 130
    licensed to kill time says:

    @El Cid:

    Wow. I would think it’s pretty obvious this would require an amendment to the Constitution, or repeal of the 14th. And someone says there’s a question about that?

    Just….wow.

  131. 131

    @El Cid: We need a thread on this one, cause you knew it was coming at some point. Next, or maybe even at the same time they will propose rescinding ex post facto those already granted, and so on down the line to all and any social services to folks they disapprove of. At some point, unless they are stopped, DNA testing for Americanism will be up for debate, and gawd only knows the criteria for that. These types of nativists will go as far as the federal government will let them, at some point, hopefully soon, Obama and Holder will need to wield the full legal weight of the federal government to crush this creeping fascism, before it takes root in the law and courts of public opinion.

  132. 132
    Mr Furious says:

    @Brachiator:

    But then again, we have our own version of this stupidity with the ongoing US embargo against Cuba.

    I’ve seen Cuba come up in these discussions a few times. It’s not a valid comparison at all. Our embargo with Cuba* is the opposite of what Israel is doing in Gaza.

    We aren’t surrounding Cuba with a naval armada preventing any trade or shipping between Cuba and the rest of the world, we are enforcing a trade embargo between ourselves and Cuba. As a result, Cuba and everyone else on the planet can do whatever they want with each other.

    Israel isn’t enforcing a trade embargo between itself and Gaza, it is enforcing a blockade, cutting Gaza off from the outside world and preventing trade with anyone.

    See the difference?

    *I think the Cuban embargo is ridiculous, and am I mistaken in recalling that Obama mentioned addressing it during the campaign?

  133. 133
    handy says:

    @El Cid:

    I think that is the sound of the other shoe dropping.

  134. 134
    sunsin says:

    @liberal: Yes, at least the apartheid South African government had the sense to keep Nelson Mandela in a safe place so that they had someone they could turn to when the sh*t finally hit the fan. Israel’s motto seems to be “the worse, the better.”

  135. 135
    gil mann says:

    this is Palestinian thinking […] They don’t believe in the Torah, in David […]

    I don’t think I know any Jews who believe in the Torah.

  136. 136
    sunsin says:

    @General Egali Tarian Stuck:

    hopefully soon, Obama and Holder will need to wield the full legal weight of the federal government to crush this creeping fascism, before it takes root in the law and courts of public opinion.

    I’m sure that simply as a political matter, Obama is delighted at the GOP becoming raving anti-Latino fanatics. That’s going to give the Latino vote to the Democrats for generations. In a few years, Republicans will be an endangered species. They have had a choice of becoming tolerant or going out in a blaze of inglory, and they’ve embraced the latter.

  137. 137
    Svensker says:

    @liberal:

    Yes, this. That way you never have to deal with calm, rational people, only upset and/or radicalized ones. Makes your own optics so much better.

  138. 138
    Svensker says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Epic fail, as I believe the yoots would say.

    Yoots? Is that you, Jerry Callo?

  139. 139
    El Cid says:

    @General Egali Tarian Stuck: The follow up would obviously be to deport any children who don’t have birth certificates, especially those to whom they had just denied birth certificates.

  140. 140

    @sunsin: As a political matter, I agree completely, and recent polling is showing there in a downturn of public approval of tea bag like hateful ideology, and also improved dem unity and enthusiasm. But as a governance and legal and moral matter, and democratic health of the country, I don’t want to see it go on unchallenged legally from the Obama administration. For now it’s cool, at least till the upcoming election, but after that, it makes me mad and nervous at the same time.

  141. 141
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: sorry, brother amir, it is already framed and written in blood as jews vs. muslims.
    Bush’s war on al-Islam didn’t help.
    And i don’t think that can be changed.
    the christian minority gets no sympathy from the Palin/Hagee/DeMint pre-trib christofascist axis. the palestinian christians are just more staked goats to bring on the Rapture….like the rest of MENA.

  142. 142
    Larkspur says:

    @Amir_Khalid:

    “…And for the Palestinians (at least) belief and scripture are not what’s at issue here. I suspect the same might be true for secular Israeli Jews.”

    Yeah, secular Israeli Jews have long chafed under the enforced theocratic elements of their government, in which the super Orthodox Jews have a small but powerful voice. Israelis may want to go to synagogue on Saturday, but they also want to go to the beach, and wear comfy shorts in any part of Jerusalem. And some of the super-Orthodox Jews are actually anti-Zionist.

    Religious zealots are so very tiresome for everyone.

    I can see a two-state solution. I get that demographically things will shift and change. But they always do. That’s the great rock and the great roll of history. In my part of the U.S., Spanish has been spoken more consistently than English, but you wouldn’t know it from the misspelled protest signs like “Speak English – Your In America”.

    Maybe in a hundred years, Haifa and Tel Aviv will be absolutely bilingual, Jews will tend to be fluent in Arabic, the people in the streets will look like they grew up in the Middle East, and blue eyes won’t be so common. But maybe it could also be a region where people are solving their water issues, where tourism is safe and lucrative, where the high tech industry gets stronger, women participate more in public life, and very few people visualize a bloodbath on any given day.

  143. 143

    @El Cid: I guess they would pile all the bundles of joy into a paddy wagon, then drop em off at the border with a good luck and can of enfamil.

    Then Tom Tancreepo will go on cable news and tell us they shouldn’t have been born on the wrong side of the border in the first place, the felonious little brats.

  144. 144
    Mark S. says:

    There’s a reason the 14th Amendment doesn’t allow the individual states to decide who is and isn’t a citizen.

  145. 145
    Svensker says:

    @matoko_chan:

    the christian minority gets no sympathy from the Palin/Hagee/DeMint pre-trib christofascist axis. the palestinian christians are just more staked goats to bring on the Rapture….like the rest of MENA

    Nope. There was a very healthy Christian community in Iraq before our invasion. Most are all gone.

  146. 146
    matoko_chan says:

    @Observer: sillie observer.
    Hamas doesn’t WANT the blockade to end.
    Its PR gold for them.
    Hamas is running the Israelis just like Hizb’ did in the summer war.
    1500 dead lebanese later, Hizb’ got Sameer Kuntar, and the Israelis got 2 dead soljahs.
    The blockade is the Friend of Hamas. The longer it goes on, the more concessions and freed prisoners they will get.
    They don’t give a shit about the gazans, you fool.
    And when its over they will be heroes, and get re-elected in the next democratic UN-observed election.
    the sssssstupid it burnsssssss.

  147. 147
    handy says:

    How many of these idiots were the same people falling all over themselves to make sure Elian Gonzales wasn’t deported back to Cuba and into the ebil clutches of Fidel Castro?

  148. 148
    matoko_chan says:

    @Svensker: where did they go?killed in sectarian violence like the other 100000+ iraqi civilians under the US occupation?

  149. 149
    matoko_chan says:

    do you guys know what Amir Khalid means in arabic?
    khalid means undying, immortal, and amir means lord.
    i luff arabic….there are 77 separate words for different kinds of love.

  150. 150
    Larkspur says:

    @matoko_chan: Saudi Arabia likes things the way they are, too. The Islamic fundamentalists are busy elsewhere, few Middle Eastern countries are trending toward glasnost or democracy, and we Americans still need them so much we’ll hold their hands, smile for the cameras, and help them get out of Dodge before they can be interviewed about U.S. homeland security issues. The whole thing is a big cash cow for arms manufacturers, security firms, construction consortiums, blah blah blah, and Israelis and Palestinians worry about their children every single damn day. God, it would be sweet to see all the residents of Israel and the Occupied Lands say a big fuck you to foreign corporations and states, and start helping each other rebuild.

    I know, I know. I’m going away now.

  151. 151
    Larkspur says:

    One last thing before I really shut up: I really really miss Marla Ruzicka.

  152. 152
    Terrell says:

    @Dave:

    They didn’t. Hamas launched a coup which resulted in Hamas thugs throwing members of Fatah off the tops of buildings.

    Yeah, I’m pretty sure foreigners could say the same damn thing about the “election” spectacle that took place in this country in 2000. Perhaps we should clean up our own act before we hypocritically make accusations about other countries.

    Just a friendly thought…

  153. 153
    Amir_Khalid says:

    @matoko_chan: I’m sure that’s why my dad gave me the name. He was fluent in Arabic.

  154. 154
    El Cid says:

    Since this was reported earlier, a correction.

    Saudi Arabia would not allow Israeli bombers to pass through its airspace en route to a possible strike of Iran’s nuclear facilities, a member of the Saudi royal family said Saturday, denying an earlier Times of London report.

  155. 155
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: it is a beautiful name.
    my muslim name is shams, after the queen of the slavegirls in the Arabian Nights story. i chose it when i reverted.
    ;)

  156. 156
    matoko_chan says:

    @Larkspur: In an interview with former Argentine president Néstor Kirchner, Oliver Stone learned that [George W] Bush claimed that waging war was a formula for economic growth. Here’s the key exchange:

    [Nestor Kirchner]: I said that a solution for the problems right now, I told Bush, is a Marshall Plan. And he got angry. He said the Marshall Plan is a crazy idea of the Democrats. He said the best way to revitalize the economy is war. And that the United States has grown stronger with war.

    [Oliver Stone]: War, he said that?

    Kirchner: He said that. Those were his exact words.

    Stone: Is he suggesting that South America go to war?

    Kirchner: Well, he was talking about the United States: “The Democrats had been wrong. All of the economic growth of the United States has been encouraged by wars.” He said it very clearly.

  157. 157
    Amir_Khalid says:

    @matoko_chan: That sounds about right for the subject of the song American Idiot.

  158. 158
    Svensker says:

    @matoko_chan:

    where did they go?killed in sectarian violence like the other 100000+ iraqi civilians under the US occupation?

    Fled or killed. I met a big bunch of them on a plane one day — they were being sent by our government to the mid-west US somewhere. They were all terrified and had upset stomachs because of the food and all the changes they’d been through. My husband speaks a bit of Arabic so he was able to help a bit. They were so grateful for the kindness and all the while they had been forced to flee their homes and land and leave so much behind. What a kindness.

  159. 159
    Bruce (formerly Steve S.) says:

    They don’t believe in the Torah, in David

    Er, neither do I. Maybe they should blockade my house.

  160. 160
    Mike G says:

    @handy:

    How many of these idiots were the same people falling all over themselves to make sure Elian Gonzales wasn’t deported back to Cuba and into the ebil clutches of Fidel Castro?

    That was the only time you’ll ever see Repigs protesting a SWAT team raid on a house full of Latinos.

  161. 161
    Kyle says:

    @matoko_chan:

    Kirchner: Well, he was talking about the United States: “The Democrats had been wrong. All of the economic growth of the United States has been encouraged by wars.” He said it very clearly.

    War has certainly been the foundation of the Bush family’s wealth loot, dating back to the Walkers making a fortune profiteering off WW1. Then of course there was Prescott financing Hitler, and the Bush I and II routine political exploitation of wars of choice. So I can see how a solipsistic, incurious asshole with a comic-book intellect like W would think war is good for the economy; he thinks the country is his plaything, and war has been damn good to him.

  162. 162
    300baud says:

    @Dave:

    This is collective punishment for having the audacity to vote for Hamas.
    They didn’t. Hamas launched a coup which resulted in Hamas thugs throwing members of Fatah off the tops of buildings.

    Get the timeline right, Dave.

    In January 2006, Hamas edged out Fatah in an election. Israel more or less immediately started sanctions. That was all more than a year before the Battle of Gaza. And according to the article that you link to, the US was collaborating with Fatah to arrange a coup, and the battle of Gaza was in reaction to that. So although there are plenty of things to blame Hamas for, that doesn’t seem like one of them.

  163. 163
    ciotog says:

    @gil mann:

    I don’t think I know any Jews who believe in the Torah

    Schumer was talking to the ones who do. It was an Orthodox audience.

  164. 164
    matoko_chan says:

    @Svensker: i think a lot of muslims will necessarily be given asylum here in the US when the withdraw starts in earnest. There are going to be a lot of revanchists in Iraq, and Bush did whack over 100000 of their citizens. Iraqis perceived as helping American troops facilitate muslim genocide are going to be persona-nongrata.
    Going to give steve sailor and the rest of the “nativists” apoplexy i betcha…given that all “muzzies” are proto-terrorists, that will be much worse than mexicans, lol.

  165. 165
    matoko_chan says:

    @Amir_Khalid: <3 Greenday.

  166. 166
    Steeplejack says:

    @Svensker:

    Yoots? Is that you, Jerry Callo?

    Yes, it is I.

  167. 167
    GregB says:

    The coup was launched against the legally elected Hamas government and was reportedly armed and instigated by the American CIA.

    Hamas squashed the putsch. Another major league CIA fail.

  168. 168
    Steve R. says:

    @matoko_chan:

    It’s fine for Beinart to shake his head and deplore Deir Yassin at this point in history, but Deir Yassin served its purpose in helping to create the Jewish state Beinart supports, which territory was cleared by terrorizing the indigenous population and driving out those who wouldn’t leave. In other words, it scared hell out of the natives. Beinart is a warlike little fella and I have a feeling that had he been engaging in punditry in 1948 his view would be somewhat different.

  169. 169
    matoko_chan says:

    @Steve R.: yeah, agreed.
    Like Andy Jackson was a sumbitch but the Union probably wouldn’t have survived without him.

  170. 170
    Sheila says:

    Is Schumer implying it is wrong that Palestinians do not believe in the Torah? By this way of thinking, then doesn’t it mean that Schumer is wrong to not believe in the Koran? Does he believe the Torah is more believable because it came first? By this way of thinking, the Hindu Rig Veda is older than either, so we should all believe in that (and, really, there is much wisdom in it, as there is in most religious literature, if one takes them metaphorically).

  171. 171
    miwome says:

    Well, Hamas got its start in the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that is generally considered to be Egypt’s resident Scary Islamists but exists in several countries and is defined by its focus on social revolution (that is, promoting Islam through social work and leading by example) and its disinterest in violence. Hamas was created out of the MB as a separate organization in 1987, at the beginning of the First Intifada, because the MB was trying to avoid becoming politically irrelevant in a social context that was heading for conflict with or without the MB. It became totally independent pretty fast, but those roots are evident in all the social organizations and service work Hamas supported and provided throughout its existence, and especially in the late nineties.

    Hamas was actually strengthened at first (basically until the Oslo Accords) by Israel, who thought that fostering it would weaken the PLO (i.e. Fatah and Yasser Arafat). And they were right about that, but it didn’t really work out how they thought it would.

  172. 172
    miwome says:

    @Dave: As for Hamas offering anything–in 2004, Hassan Yusuf, who was in charge of Hamas in the West Bank, began making noises about a “long-term truce” with Israel on the basis of a state along the ’67 borders, and Hamas generally dropped a lot of hints in 2004 and 2005, including recognizing the Oslo Accords as a political reality that it could no longer ignore or seek to overturn.

    That may not seem like much to us, but for Hamas it was huge: the Oslo Accords were pretty much teh basis of all political competition in the Palestinian Territories since their inception. They were the major point of disagreement between Fatah and Hamas. That Hamas acknowledged that they were a fact of life that it was prepared to deal with represented a major shift in their thinking, and now we have no way of knowing what might have come of that since the US, Israel and Fatah immediately did everything they could to fuck over the Hamas government before it could get started. The address Ismail Haniyeh gave to the legislative assembly after Hamas won the 2006 elections came as close to endorsing the two-state solution as he politically could have done without completely abandoning the political identity that got Hamas into power in the first place, but again, we’ll never know where that might have led.

    I’m pretty sure Dave doesn’t care, but those are the facts.

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