Not good news:
Insurgents killed 10 NATO soldiers on Monday, seven of them Americans, military officials said. It was the worst single day for the foreign forces operating in Afghanistan in the past seven months.
The deaths came in five separate attacks in the south and east of the country, according to statements from the International Security Assistance Force, as the NATO force in Afghanistan is known.
In addition, a civilian American security guard was killed Monday, along with another guard whose nationality was not immediately clear, in a suicide attack on the police training center in the southern city of Kandahar.
Horrible. Although I’m sure we’ll be greeted shortly with the cheery news that an Al Qaeda #3 was just killed in a drone attack.
LarsThorwald
And the band played on.
burnspbesq
Remind me again what core national interest is served by our continuing to throw lives and money down that sewer.
robertdsc
This war will pay for itself.
El Cid
Re
And was he foolish enough to go to a wedding party? Those seem to be particularly vulnerable to drone attacks.
arguingwithsignposts
Let’s ask Helen Thomas what she thinks.
{ducks}
burnspbesq
@robertdsc:
That war will only pay for itself if we legalize and tax heroin.
Americanadian
@burnspbesq: Because if we don’t fight them over there hordes of Afghan jihadis will pile onto landing craft and we’ll be fighting them on the shores of New Jersey.
Comrade Jake
Wait a minute… you mean there’s a war going on in Afghanistan? Someone tell the DC press corpse…
Zach
The Feds should be required to let us know who AQ3 is ahead of time. Always skeptical that any high-ranking terrorist is posthumously anointed #3.
eemom
Maybe the insurgents were trying to get our minds off Helen Thomas.
burnspbesq
@Americanadian:
So what’s the big deal – there are big fights all up and down the Shore every night in the summer. Alcohol plus testosterone equals chaos.
Dave C
@Zach:
He’s the one wearing the red shirt.
burnspbesq
If jihadis land down the Shore they’ll be disappointed – they ain’t finding no 42 virgins.
Nick
A coworker of mine said today “To win a war, we must have the option of losing it and Afghanistan is a war we can’t lose.”
arguingwithsignposts
@burnspbesq:
{golf clap}
well played, sir.
Phil
John, it looks like you picked up an endorsement from the Al Qassam Brigades (Hamas’ military wing) today. Exciting stuff!
Al Qassam website-June 6, 2010-White house correspondent Helen Thomas told Jews to get out of Palestine. In an interview with her, Jewish man named as David, asked Helen for her comment on Israel, she responded by saying: “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.”
Turning her attention to the Palestinians, she said, “Remember, these people are occupied. And it’s their land,” adding the Jews should “go home” to Poland and Germany.
No doubt that Thomas Helen has told the truth that everybody in the world knows, but as American in a very important position , she was attacked by Zionists who went mad from the reality she mentioned in front of all people.
A document released yesterday on You tube, shows Thomas Helen while addressing Jews as ” get out of Palestine because it does not belong toyou”.
Thomas Helen directly accused by Jews and pro-Israel masses as anti-Semite Nazi.
Israelis ignore the reality, that they never belong in Palestine but belong in some other countries they know better.
Thomas when she asked by David , where Jews should go ? she replied him: “They should go home, German , Poland, America and anywhere else”.
She also mentioned that “remember these people are occupied and it is their land , not German and not Poland”.
This statement by Thomas Helen reflects the opinion of American majority in USA and all masses who support justice and peace in Palestine an whole world.
Moreover, her statement serves peace process in -Middle East- as they like to call it, to a very great extent.
Peace process will be successful, only when Israel get out of Arab Areas ,Golan and occupied Palestine, then we can say that peace is happily achieved, other wise, and as long Israel occupies Palestine and some Arab lands, peace will never be achieved and more headache will be brought to the world by state of terror-Israel .
Statement by Thomas Helen came as a result for the bloody massacre committed by Israeli navy in the Mediterranean sea in 31/5/2010, caused of murdering 20 civilian activists who are still having unknown fate.”
Does this mean you can discounts on rocket propelled grenades?
Maude
This is the month when Obama can change his decision to keep troops in Afghanistan. I wish he’d get them out of there.
The Afghan government is in place and NATO could leave.
I don’t see that staying there is going to ever work.
MattR
When someone figures out what Phil was trying to say, please let me know.
Calouste
@Zach:
It shows the Feds math skills. They haven’t got beyond the system that goes: one, two, many. Anyone who isn’t one or two is
manythree.But yeah, it’s starting to sound like a parody of 1984 now, does it?
Phil
@MattR:
Pretty simple really. Your viewpoint got a nice endorsement from Hamas. Cheers!
Midnight Marauder
@MattR:
I would hope those poor souls don’t waste their time on an inherently futile effort.
maus
@LarsThorwald:
As the heeeeelicoooopters whirred.
Eric U.
@MattR: pretty sure Phil was trying to say “pie”
Bhall35
@Phil: Equating critics of Israel with Hamas never gets old for you clowns, does it? I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but keep fucking that chicken, Phil!
Phil
@Midnight Marauder:
Helen Thomas’ views have been endorsed by many on this blog.
And now they’ve been endorsed by Hamas.
So I suppose one could understand why many would deliberately choose not to put two and two together.
In the meantime, enjoy the endorsement from Hamas you Jew hating piece of shit.
Midnight Marauder
@Phil:
No.
Brandon
At what point do we just give up and pack it in?
Just the idea that we could have captured or killed Bin Laden in Tora Bora 8 years ago, declared victory and gone home is unfathomable to me. And how is that we don’t even mention this dudes name any more when talking about Afghanistan? Wasn’t he like the whole point? And now, no one cares.
If our point anymore is not to capture or kill Bin Laden, then these boys are dying over there for no reason at all. Which is very disturbing to think about.
Phil
@Bhall35:
Many here on this very blog not only defended Thomas’ remarks these past couple of days but actually endorsed her view.
Which awkwardly puts them into a position of sharing the same viewpoint now endorsed by Hamas.
That you’re more upset by me pointing this out than you are with the people who have endorsed the very same position as Hamas on this very blog says a lot more about you than it does about me.
Lolis
@ Phil
Shameless. Really.
CynDee
These stories never define what an “insurgent” is. Guess it’s anybody who doesn’t want American troops in their country. What soreheads, not wanting to be invaded. We’ll show them.
Cacti
I know it’s cool to be reflexively anti-war Re: Afghanistan, but seriously, what’s the alternative besides pick up, pull out, and hope everything works itself out?
Phil
@Lolis:
I’d love to think you’re referring to the people who have endorsed Thomas’ views (and subsequently those of Hamas) but it looks like most of the decent people have already left the building at this blog.
All we seem to be left with are Thomas endorsers and those who’ve defended the remarks.
…Including the blog host.
burnspbesq
Favor de no molestar el troll.
PeakVT
7 Americans died in Afghanistan, and Phil wants to talk about what one journalist said in an offhand remark.
Why do you hate America, Phil?
demo woman
Seven soldiers from the United States died today, they are sons, daughters, wives, husbands, fathers and mothers. How Phil can show up on this blog and spout Helen Thomas did this and Helen Thomas did that is sickening.
There are other posts that comment on Helen Thomas, please have the sense to use those posts.
Cacti
@Phil:
Helen Thomas is worse than Hitler.
Maybe the IDF can shoot her in the back in “self defense”.
MattR
@Phil: So I take it then you are in complete opposition to every single thing that Hamas has said, regardless of its validity, because it was Hamas who said it?
@PeakVT: @demo woman: You are both right. My apolgies for feeding the troll.
RedKitten
@Phil:
Phil. Seriously. Fuck off. This is a thread about troops who have died, and my country lost another soldier today to an IED.
Have some fucking respect and save your verbal diarrhea for another thread, you lowlife, trolling piece of scum.
Brian J
What would happen if Obama were to announce he’s had a change of heart and is dramatically scaling back operations in Afghanistan? I don’t know how possible or probable or even worthwhile this is. Well, it’s probably far more worthwhile than it is likely, but is it even a remote possibility? If not this year, maybe next year, then?
Maybe someone knows better than me, but I am just not sure we are doing any good there. I’m not sure what the point of the operation is. In Iraq, it was a little clearer, even if it wasn’t particularly realistic. I don’t think the same can be said for Afghanistan.
El Cid
@Cacti: Well, as long as Helen Thomas is on a boat with wheelchairs and the IDF forces can shoot her four times in the head in self-defense.
Probably, Hamas might denounce this, and if you denounce it too, OMG — YOU LOVE HAMAS AND WANT TO HAVE ITS BABIES!
Brandon
Didn’t Hamas also endorse Obama? So by Phil’s logic, 55% of Americans endorsed the views of Hamas when they voted for him in November ’08. Just sayin’…
Phil
@PeakVT:
Fuck you, I’ve got friends who have served and serving on the front lines as we speak. I don’t need to prove my support for the troops credentials to you.
El Cid
@Brian J: I sure wish we could do some or other symbolically important thing in Afghanistan, pronounce sufficient victory, and leave. Instead, maybe we’ll keep SURGing to victory forever and ever.
Splitting Image
In that case, neither do most of the people you’re arguing with.
Just sayin’.
someguy
@Phil:
Hey Phil. You know who likes Falafel? Hamas. You know who else likes Falafel? Jews. So you know what that means, right?
Yep. Jews = Hamas.
So if you hate Hamas, you hate the Jews.
Why do you hate the Jews so, Phil?
Cacti
@Phil:
So you’re just an attention whore then?
stuckinred
@Phil:There are no frontlines you chickenshit motherfucker.
demo woman
@Phil: Phil, If you read the post you would have commented another site. Sorry you were wrong to post here so. You did so just to keep the site from talking about Afghanistan and the soldiers from all the nato countries that died today. Shame on you. Make your points on another site.
Ben S.
@Phil
Hamas breathes air. Shall we stop breathing air, too, lest we be branded as terrorist sympathizers?
SiubhanDuinne
I don’t remember what got BoB banned last time around, but surely it couldn’t have been any more tedious or repellent than the bile spewing from the current hateful troll.
Brandon
@someguy: I’ve also heard that Hamas has endorsed babaganoosh, schwarma, and hummus. Not to mention air, water and fire.
KG
The only way things are going to get better in Afghanistan is if we decide to spend a shit load of money similar to the Marshall Plan. Of course, we don’t take care of our own infrastructure, so I’m not too convinced that anyone will think to do something as simple as building roads or train tracks in a country where you have to travel by donkey to get from one end of it to the other.
Or we could just keep killing everyone in al Qeada until there are only two of them left…
stuckinred
@Brandon: As long as it ain’t earth, wind and fire. . .
Midnight Marauder
@SiubhanDuinne:
Phil is lightyears worse than BoB ever was.
I don’t even think it’s close.
Mark S.
Phil also has black friends.
Corner Stone
@Maude:
It is to laugh.
MattR
@Midnight Marauder: If John bans Phil, that just proves that John is anti-semitic ;)
stuckinred
@KG: What could go wrong with that? We killed about 3 million Vietnamese and if we’d just killed another million it would be Orange County now.
stuckinred
@Mark S.: Who are in the shit as we speak.
Corner Stone
@Cacti:
Besides our kids not dying, what would be different if we weren’t there?
IOW, let’s do a little thought experiment. We drop trou, get the F out…and? What’s the bogeyman?
PeakVT
On the post topic – the bottom line in Afghanistan remains:
1) Afghanistan (the nation-state) does not exist.
2) The US can’t afford to create it.
El Cid
@KG: In the Marshall plan, we were helping to rebuild economies which already had been industrialized, modernized, and functional, and at the same time subsidizing an export market for U.S. goods and material. Afghanistan wouldn’t be rebuilt, it’s never gotten there — and it isn’t the sort of thing that occupying forces can just come in and know how and what to do.
Corner Stone
@KG: Better for whom?
El Cid
@PeakVT:
It wouldn’t be able to do it if it stayed there another 50 years. Doesn’t work that way.
stuckinred
@Corner Stone: Ask Joe Wilson what could go wrong.
maus
@Cacti:
You’re assuming another plan exists, because we’re certainly haven’t prepared for any other option and you’re not offering us any other viable options. “In it to win it” is an attitude, not a reality.
@stuckinred:
Why, are we going to sell Afghanistan chemical and biological weapons too?
BombIranForChrist
Yay, Afghanistan. Thanks, Obama!
Corner Stone
@stuckinred: I’d rather ask his wife. But if I did, what would he tell me?
danimal
We may be in Afghanistan for a long time, but not necessarily. Domestic politics are crucial to understanding our Afghan commitments.
Timeline for Afghanistan withdrawal:
Date X–Osama Bin Laden captured or killed.
Date X+7–New timeline for Afghan withdrawal announced.
Date X+180–Last American servicepeople leave Kabul, shaking the dust off their shoes.
We’re not really doing nation building; we’re conducting the biggest manhunt in history.
stuckinred
@maus: You know the drill, we loaded up the Taliban with stingers, they kicked the Ruskie’s ass and we di-di’d. The rest is history.
KG
@El Cid: all of your points are well taken. But I’m typically of the opinion that if you are a major industrial power and you invade another nation, topple it’s government, and then spend about a decade blowing shit up, you have a moral obligation to make things better before you leave. I don’t know how (or really even if) it can be done, but I think we need to try before we leave.
@Corner Stone: theoretically, everyone. Better for the Afghan people if we can help them establish an actual functioning government that can provide some stability. Better for the region because if Afghanistan is stable, that’s one less thing that could set off a regional war (as if Pakistan and India pointing nuclear warheads at each other and screaming about Kashmir wasn’t enough). Better for us because instead of blowing shit up, we’d be helping them build, which should help us in the international community.
Again, I’m not sure it can even work, but I don’t like the idea of fucking shit up and then walking away without even the pretense of trying to make things right.
Corner Stone
@maus:
That’s bogus. I start every session of craps with a “in it to win it” reality.
Hasn’t let me down yet.
stuckinred
@Corner Stone: I’m like the prez, I don’t know what the fuck to do.
numbskull
@Phil:
Sure you do, Phil, sure you do.
One of them is named Rosie. What do you call the other one?
stuckinred
@KG: again
Corner Stone
@KG:
The Afghan people are largely tribal, and couldn’t give a damn less what the “govt” is or is not doing.
That’s why we call him the “President of Kabul”. (or alternatively “Mayor” because it’s a joke and there’s nothing we could ever do about it)
Corner Stone
@stuckinred: Well then. How about we stop getting our kids killed, stop droning wedding parties, and try a little GTFO? It can’t be any worse.
Because 9 years in, “staying for no fucking discernible reason whatsoever” doesn’t seem to be the winning strategy.
Corner Stone
@danimal:
I disagree. IMO, no one gives a tinker’s damn where OBL is.
Corner Stone
@numbskull: Leftie? Or maybe “Stranger in white latex”?
Calouste
@Brandon:
What would that have gotten Bush/Cheney? They knew that daddy Bush won the war in 1991, had massive approval ratings and still got kicked out of office less than 2 years later. Keeping the war going was far better from an electoral perspective. If the war had ended with the capture of Bin Laden, things would have gone back to normal and and Bush’s approval ratings would have been back where they were on 9/10. Or probably worse. If they had captured Bin Laden they wouldn’t have to be able to turn him into this massive demon with superpowers and people might have started asking questions why exactly Bush couldn’t keep the U.S. safe from someone living in a cave.
Not saying that things were planned that way, just that there wasn’t much of an incentive to capture him. Keep in mind that the mantra of the GOP was a “permanent Republican majority”, not wishy-washy stuff like “making America great”.
Calouste
@danimal:
Fix’d.
Oh, FYWP.
maus
@stuckinred:
Ohhh, Charlie Wilson. I don’t really know how your statement stands on this, then.@danimal:
ahahhahaahaaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahaaaa
whoo boy
Brandon
@danimal: I concur. Like I posted before, the only reason for us to remain there is Bin Laden. If he ain’t there or is already dead, we should pack up and go home. If he is still alive, we capture or kill him and then go home. Simple enough.
As for the Pakistan question, we should just do like we’ve always done in the region, pay a bunch of degenerates to fight that fight for us and then wait a couple decades for the eventual blowback. Or, we just keep killing wedding parties with drones until…. I don’t know, they all pack up and move to the city.
PeakVT
@El Cid: I think if the US blew another trillion or so each year for a couple of decades, it could create a nation-state that functions as well as Iraq. Short of that, the Afghanis will have to make one by themselves. And they’re not going to do it while the US has guns pointed at them.
@Cacti: Reach an understanding with the Taliban (and with all of the other persons or groups that control the various regions of Afghanistan) that if al-Qaeda or any other international terrorist group operates out of Afghanistan, the US will come after them (the Taliban leaders). Keeping al-Qaeda as ineffective as possible is what is relevant to American security. Given the right incentives, the Taliban is likely to do a better job than the US can. And cheaper.
El Cid
@KG:
If I thought these were genuine efforts and would make things better rather than worse, I’d agree. Always remember, it’s not “us”, it’s a set of existing apparatuses under the aegis of the state, not some moral representation of what ‘we’ ordinary folk would prefer.
El Cid
@PeakVT:
And people think Zimbabwe isn’t something to be aspired to.
burnspbesq
@Corner Stone:
Religious fanatics get their hands on nukes?
No, wait, that describes the United States Air Force just as well as it would describe Taliban-controlled Pakistan.
danimal
I agree that Bush didn’t want to capture OBL at Tora Bora, but Obama does want to capture him. Bush didn’t have the incentive (the Iraq war would have been a much harder sell), but Obama would love to declare victory and get out. All of high-minded promises about protecting Afghan women and installing a functional government will evaporate in minutes once OBL is out of the picture (and the Afghans know it).
Poppies will grow and warlords will fight long after we leave that chaotic place, whether that’s in a year, a decade or a century.
maus
@Phil:
Time for you to go somewhere else, I guess!
danimal
Yes, I know most intelligence people believe is that OBL is in Pakistan, fwiw. The borders between the two countries are still relatively porous, but a presence in Afghanistan serves as a staging area into Pakistan as needed.
wengler
On the bright side maybe Karzai will celebrate the attacks and be more popular than he has been in years.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq: In Afghanistan? They have nukes there?
Or are you suggesting if we jump out of Afghanistan that somehow the Taliban will get nukes from Pakistan?
I’m unclear on this.
And either way, the complete nonsense BS that somehow ninjas will get Paki’s nuke control is about as plausible as Ceiling Cat stealing a Bentley from one of our HipHop rapper overlords.
maus
@danimal:
Oh good. And after we invade Pakistan?
Corner Stone
@danimal: Nobody gives a shit about OBL.
You know what the best thing we could do about OBL is? Set a warrant out for him about $5000 dollars US.
Tell anyone in the region that if they give him up we will give them some equivalent of 1 years worth of village productivity.
And Another Thing...
@KG: My heart’s with you on “fixing things.” My head says we can’t – nobody can – transform Afghanistan into a functioning nation state. There’s no internal cultural, education, or philosophical structure to build on. Germany and Japan were rehab projects. Afghanistan is equivalent to say single cell life forms on the evolutionary scale. I believe that the average Afghani wants peace, but I haven’t seen signs that they want anything like the cultural change that would be required for them to be a viable nation state.
El Cid
@Corner Stone:
Laugh while you can.
Americanadian
@El Cid: Obama’s black, Mugabe’s black; Mugabe was a Marxist back when he was one of Rhodesia’s foremost black freedom fighters instead of the kleptocrat he’s become, and we all know that Obama wears a Mao suit under his clothes like a set of Mormon undergarments… OH GOD THE PARALLELS ARE SO EVIDENT!
Let us hope that none of the member’s of K-Lo’s house of crazy, or Erick the son of Erick, ever see your comment or the wingnut freak show will have another batshit meme to bludgeon our intellects with.
Americanadian
@Corner Stone: It was my impression that we were offering a cool $25 mil for him and another 25 for Mullah Omar. Did we discreetly drop the bounty at some point in the last few years?
PeakVT
@Corner Stone: There’s already a $25M reward. If anyone not in al-Qaeda knows where OBL current is, they’re probably convinced they will not live long enough to spend the reward.
El Cid
@And Another Thing…: We might also want to recall that we haven’t been able to use government to build up our economy and economic infrastructure since the 1930s, and have been in open warfare against these notions since the Reagan revolution. In our current attempt to play at rebuilding Iraq since laying waste to it, it’s considered a major victory to construct something that isn’t just a conduit for pallets of money to disappear.
How the hell are the nimrod ‘experts’ who helped us destroy our own economy, and whom to this day are fearful of the notion of having done anything more than we have done since our recent collapse, going to go invent a modern economy and infrastructure whole cloth, appropriate to local culture, where no such thing has been?
maus
@Corner Stone:
Maybe they don’t want to be owned by our money.
Americanadian
@maus: “Owned by our money?” That might be a bit theological or existentialist for poorly educated Afghanis.
A more realistic problem might be that dirt-poor farmers and herders might literally not know what could be done with their own personal $25 million, or that they’re concerned that the local warlord will just swoop in, kill them and take it all for themselves once the CIA has left after dropping off the giant novelty check.
Bill Section 147
I wonder how the former member countries of the Soviet Union feel – their governments and peoples – now that they have a good spread of years to look back at their Afghan Adventure?
I am sure there are a few die-hards that whine about how they should have never left. I am sure that there are a few who think they could have won, if…. But in general, I wonder if they dwell on it much. I am sure that quite a few mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, widows and orphans feel the pain of those days every time they look at that empty chair, that old photograph, that day on the calendar.
Certainly the mission was outlined as good or necessary by some one. Surely there were many who hoped for the best. But shoring up a teetering government then and now is not a real plan for success on any level.
Remember when idiots were complaining that it was ridiculous to go in without an actual goal, a plan, an exit strategy? Remember how anything short of, “Yessir Mr. Bush!” was anti-American? Remember when we were going in to get Al Qua’ida, then it became the Taliban, then it was to make democracy, then it was to keep whatever you call the government today in power and provide some stability to train some troops.
Remember when we were a few weeks away from actually doing what we initially were told we were going to do? But that mission failed. Remember how Bush ensured failure by invading Iraq? Remember how Bush could not admit he failed so it became necessary to make shit up to make it seem like we were about to turn a corner?
Can Obama just admit that Bush failed? Can Obama admit that Bush lied? Or is that looking backward instead of forward. How deep does the hole have to be before someone says stop digging? Each day Obama adds to the Afghan time line from when he took office is one day more when it could just be over. Cheney isn’t going to get his gas pipeline access by killing people using NATO. Somebody is just going to end up paying off this or that warlord and assassinating this or that village elder.
Somewhere in Afghanistan young men sit in the wreck of a building wondering what its all for. In fifty years will it mean anything. In a hundred. In twenty years even. But he can’t quit because he can’t leave. If he is from a NATO country it isn’t his decision. If he is Afghani there is no place else to go.
I was young when Vietnam fell apart. The whole sad story came to an end and it was tough to understand. If Nixon had just pulled out in 1969 would Vietnam be any more or less our friend? Would the US be a horrible shell of its former self. Would glory be any less tasty.
Somewhere in Germany a few very old men survive. They lost their war. I wonder how many of them wonder if they should have kept fighting. Really? Should they have? Didn’t surrender mean turning your back on the dead, on all the sacrifice? I wonder.
El Cid
@Americanadian: Oh, I didn’t create anything. You must not have been watching. The right and those who listen to the radio screamers continuously compare Obama with Mugabe. Because a national health insurance regulation plan is just like appropriating the farms of whites with larger properties. And because hundreds of thousands of American citizens are fleeing the country, crossing the Rio Bravo with their clothes on their heads, watching out for hippos, hoping to find work and safety in Mexico. And also because we’ve got these massive, ridiculous inflation rates to deal with, which are admittedly invisible, and no one is predicting them, but they’re there, just like in Zimbabwe.
That Obama’s black and Muslim and born in both Kenya and Indonesia has nothing to do with this comparison, it’s simply a reasoned, calm, economic analysis.
They don’t, however, compare Bush Jr’s wasteland in Iraq, pre- or post-SUUUUUUURGE, with Zimbabwe. No, no, there the U.S. is leading a heroic effort to, um, keep walls built where the Shi’as and Sunnis ethnic cleansed themselves out of each others’ neighborhoods. And since a tiny class of wealthy exist in Baghdad, buying flat-screen TV’s and cellphones, everything’s pretty much going A-OK.
Corner Stone
@Americanadian: and @PeakVT
I remember reading a story where people in the region thought we were fools – because they had no concept of what that level of money actually was.
They could not conceive of an amount that was more than they could spend in a certain amount to take care of their family / village.
Many, many experts said at the time, IIRC, that this was another ludicrous miscalculation by the US. That this amount of money meant we were fools who didn’t know anything about the region. We in the West know what $25M is, but the people we needed the most help from could never imagine a store of wealth that was comparable.
My point is that if we act like OBL is a common chump ass criminal, and tie his fate to something *real*, something people could actually see when they go to bed at night, not only would we win a propaganda war against that punk, but may get people to start actually considering what he was worth to them.
arguingwithsignposts
@stuckinred:
I think you mean Charlie Wilson.
“Charlie Wilson’s War” was an excellent movie with Tom Hanks and Philip Seymour Hoffman, as well.
Maus
Sounds a bit questionable on the whole anthropology front.
Step 0 involves going back in time and developing the moral authority well before the propaganda is written. By this point we’re a too late to do those things you suggest.
Corner Stone
@Maus: I think you misunderstand me, either willfully or otherwise.
I think we should get the F out and do whatever we can to discredit OBL as some FBI “Most Wanted” mythological badass.
Make him seem small and useless. An afterthought.
Someone we’d like to question but,…meh if we don’t find him.
Americanadian
@El Cid: Most of my exposure to far-right commentary is secondhand through sites like this one, so I admit I haven’t been keeping track all that well. I suppose I should have taken it for granted that someone, someone would have done so in the last two years or so. I sit corrected, but at least my seat is comfortable.
Corner Stone
@Maus:
I’m not a doc of anthropology but I do recall many reports that people didn’t know what the hell $25M was and they thought we were fucking with them.
Maus
I mean, with our soldiers torturing, performing sex acts on and indefinitely incarcerating sans-trial, gleefully mowing down international journalists, restarting and militarily endorsing the heroin trade, and laughingly violating their holy book, I don’t know how you think they’re going to suddenly develop, hundredth-monkey style a love for our laws and sidestep the driving hatred half the country feels for all the middle-east (aside for Israel.)
What gives us authority if we can’t restrain our own ill-action and refuse to change our behavior or hold ourselves accountable?
El Cid
@Corner Stone: “We will give you an entire hillside, with its own spring, and a flock of 50 goats! And radios with batteries!”
Maus
I’m interested to know how reliable those reports were. Cultural interlopers are often fucked with when the poorly-trained try to poke and prod those that they see as “primitive” people. I could see a psyops team trying to negotiate through a shady source to a group suspicious of both the intermediary and being infantalized.
Corner Stone
Here’s a blurb I found, take it at face value:
“Well, average Afghans have something in common with average Americans, they can’t quite comprehend the value of the president’s $25 million bounty on Usama bin Laden. An 18-year-old balloon salesman in Kabul told the Associated Press, the reward would probably buy a 100 party balloons at two cents each. Another teenager thought that the money could feed his family for 10 years. The AP estimated it would provide enough food for 500,000 years. ”
Paarrrrtttayyyy!!
Corner Stone
@Maus:
I can’t vouch for them as I was not there. I do believe the reports I read at the time. But everyone else can have their mileage vary as needed.
In any event, who gives a shit about this quibble?
Make OBL a punk and take our men and women out of Afghanistan.
jnfr
@MattR:
As near as I can tell, Phil is talking about pie.
Maus
Nah, not trying to misinterpret intentionally, at least.
We are far, far, far too far along for that. OBL will live on for decades as the dude that took the number one superpower in the world, kicked it in the balls, pantsed it, and left it crying. It’s not like Afghanistan has the same self-censoring news media that we do, there’s plenty of things we can do to better our image abroad, but I can’t really think of any that would be immediately possible upon exit.
arguingwithsignposts
@Maus:
Fixed that for you.
Sir Nose'D
@Corner Stone:
I teach science at State U. Students in my non-majors class have just as much trouble with numbers. Innumeracy, some call it. Once you start talking about numbers in the millions instead of the thousands, it leaves the plane of reality and enters the unimaginable esoteric.
+3
matoko_chan
@Maus: yup.
Afghanistan is not called the Graveyard of Empires for nuthin’.
America is just as stupid as the Israelis……Iraq was our Summer War, and Afghanistan is our Gaza blockade.
gizmo
The thing that amazes me about the decision of our government to get involved with wars in places like Afghanistan and Iraq is that even if we won some sort of “victory,” we would still be required to stay and preside over an extremely difficult and complicated and expensive situation. For decades.
Oy, and Arghhhhhh…………
moe99
Catch 22 in action:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/world/asia/07convoys.html?hp=&pagewanted=all
Corner Stone
@moe99: Sheeit. That ain’t no damned Catch 22.
That’s a feature, not a bug.
fasteddie9318
@Corner Stone:
Well, the global supply of opiates would probably drop. Why doesn’t anybody think of the poor smack junkies???? You want heroin prices to start going up on these folks?
TDE
@danimal:
They are totally porous. The idea that we or Pakistan could ‘secure’ that boarder is a fucking joke. We need to GTFO before the mujahdeen show up with new stingers… Whoever kept a lid on them getting that sort of hardware needs all sorts of medals…
Cacti
@PeakVT:
That’s reasonable.
So it probably won’t happen.
maus
@gizmo: Lobbyists aren’t interested in the long-term success of the country.
Chuck Butcher
@TDE:
Um, US/Mexico strike a chord? That one ain’t particularly mountainous, either.
Rtd
I heard Obama’s daughters aspire to be drone operators to help get their father’s kill on in AfPak
fasteddie9318
Al-Qaeda #3 has got to be the worst job in the world. Living in the certain knowledge that you’ll be whacked the next time the US government
needs a PR blitzcarpet-bombs a wedding partywants to stop looking like BP’s STD-ridden bitchgetsluckygood intel on al-Qaeda brass’s location inPakistanIraqSomaliaYemenSaudi ArabiaIndonesiaAfghanistan has got to suck.Dave
What Phil has said.
Never mind the amount of support HT has here, what is just as sickening is the sheer amount of huffing and puffing and special pleading for HT.
Disgusting.
El Cid
All of you commenting on the Afghanistan war instead of demanding Helen Thomas be burned alive are simply anti-Semites who probably run little Dachaus in your basement. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEEE!