Is it too late for Dodd to run again:
At a ceremony honoring veterans and senior citizens who sent presents to soldiers overseas, Attorney General Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut rose and spoke of an earlier time in his life.
“We have learned something important since the days that I served in Vietnam,” Mr. Blumenthal said to the group gathered in Norwalk in March 2008. “And you exemplify it. Whatever we think about the war, whatever we call it — Afghanistan or Iraq — we owe our military men and women unconditional support.”
There was one problem: Mr. Blumenthal, a Democrat now running for the United States Senate, never served in Vietnam. He obtained at least five military deferments from 1965 to 1970 and took repeated steps that enabled him to avoid going to war, according to records.
What kind of asshole pretends to have served in a war when he was at home safe as could be? Just a disgrace.
On the other hand, for the first time in my memory, the Ny Times has openly called someone a liar, at one point labeling Blumenthal’s remarks as “plainly untrue.” Maybe they will start doing that more frequently with the people lying on a daily basis about death panels and other stuff.
arguingwithsignposts
inb4 Cheney.
frankdawg
Boy George sort of pretended. He couldn’t be bothered to finish his enlistment in a champagne unit. The official picture he had of him in uniform shows him wearing a medal he did not earn.
Whats unusual here is it is a Dem pretending had it been a republican everyone would say “so what else is new?”
middlewest
I’m withholding judgment until someone checks the kerning.
El Cid
I didn’t think (though my memory isn’t 100%) that the New York Times had ever even called the ‘ACORN video’ frauds & liars out as frauds & liars.
KyCole
Only Democrats get called liars.
MattF
Ugh. Well, maybe he saw it in a movie. Or dreamed it.
D-Chance.
(insert typical Liberal “THEY DID IT, TOO!” response here)
stuckinred
It’s bad enough that he is a phony about his service but then he has to do that “I was spit on” bullshit that very Tom, Dick and Harry that gets quoted in the newspaper dutifully says. Here’s one for you, the only people that spit on me when I came home were right wingers and cops.
Ben
A disgrace, indeed.
Here’s what I want to know — not that it matters much, I’m just curious at this point. In the past, Blumenthal had been careful to say he “served in the Vietnam era,” or something along those lines, which sort of covered his base, there. Do you think this instance was a slip-up, a goof, a verbal gaffe? Or do you think it was more sinister?
I mean, you’re in the middle of a speech to a few hundred people, mostly veterans and military families, and you say “We have learned something important since the days that I served in Vietnam,” do you stop yourself, take a breath, turn the thing around and say, “Um, I mean ‘since the days when I served in the Vietnam era“?
There’s no question that would be the right thing to do. You have to admit, though, going back in your speech to correct your mis-step would be awkward for the flow of the thing.
That being said, I could just as easily be sold that he was tyring to ingratiate himself to a roomful of veterans who had been to war.
stuckinred
@frankdawg: May I see that picture please?
tomvox1
Well, duh: He’s a Democrat.
Can we please, please, please add “Air National Guard” as serving the same function for the lucky ones once and for all, goddammit?
BTW, I probably would have tried like hell to get out of that particular fight (if I had been old enough), so I am always ambivalent about judging these guys too harshly. But claiming you were actually “over there” is pretty despicable. There was an MLB manager who got canned for telling the same tall tale not too long ago. I would think the Dems in CT may want to start looking for another candidate. To me, this is a career killer for Blumenthal.
shortstop
That’s just nasty. And so freaking unnecessary.
arguingwithsignposts
this actually came up in an earlier thread. i don’t think it’s as clear-cut as NYT seems to think. But hey, this is way more important than something like an oil spill in the gulf.
Ash Can
Hey, whaddya know, some gen-yew-wine investigative reportin’ happened there. The NYT can feel free to do more of this, plz, and leave fewer crickets chirping in other cases, particularly right-wing/GOP ones.
mai naem
I cannot believe that Blumenthal would do this. I just don’t get it. He had everything going for him. He has some ridiculously high rating in Conn. politics. This guy has been an exemplary AG. Even better than Spitzer was as AG. Jeezus why???????
stuckinred
@Ben:
“Do you think this instance was a slip-up, a goof, a verbal gaffe?”
No fucking way.
Violet
It’s not remarkable if he’s a Democrat. When they start doing the same thing to Republicans, it’ll be news.
The NYT should try calling out liars. It would probably increase their circulation. A newspaper that tells the truth would be an exciting novelty. People would want to check it out.
4tehlulz
lol liberal New York Times
salacious crumb
yeah agree with Violet. Maybe the NYT can find their and start calling Bush and Judith Miller and Cheney liars and then maybe I will have a little more respect for them.
stuckinred
@mai naem: Why would Pat Robertson lie?
ET
I truly don’t understand men who do this. Not that they don’t want people to think they were “manly” by serving but why they though no one would find out. I assume this lie started many years before the Internet and possibly before he got interested in running for office when getting away with such lies would have been much easier and before journalists would bother to check, but still.
Do you think he said it so often he believed it or did he forget he was lying.
demo woman
School deferments were common during the Vietnam era. My complaint about the article was they made it seem elitist and it wasn’t. This could be a game changer but it depends on how Blumenthal handles the press.
DougMN
Jesus John- he’s a Democrat. Of course its okay to call him a liar. Where have you been?
jon
I had a friend in college who put a military past on his social and later his actual resume, and he ended up in Los Angeles making some good money and the military stuff was a good part of his credentials. He was a liar, plain and simple, but in his defense he was also an abused kid who was told way too often in his formative years that he’d never amount to anything. He also had hearing loss from getting hit in the head by the same asshole veteran father or stepfather who told him he wouldn’t amount to anything.
When he left his home state and went to college, saying he was in the military was a self-esteem dick move that worked for him (mostly.) Many friends knew, and he knew they knew, and he developed worse traits as he became a better and better liar (about this and other things.) Later he lost many jobs, many friends, many work connections, and more after his ruse was blown open. He’s now trying to be a better person, but getting caught was the start of it rather than a revelation of what a bullshitter he was.
I can’t go deep into the mentality of someone who lies about such things, and neither my friend nor this politician went and applied for benefits like some of the fake military people, but it really is deplorable that some people–successful and talented people–just feel compelled to say “me too” when someone brings up their military past. Is it guilt? Is it the varsity football thing taken many steps further? Whatever it is, it’s some seriously fucked up shit when a politician does it while honoring veterans.
Michael D.
I agree 100%. But a bigger question is this:
Why do Americans collectively get in such a fucking twist over whether or not their leader at one point in his life shot a bunch of people overseas? What is it with military credentials that makes you more fit to be able to manage a milti-trilllion dollar economy?
Now, I’m from a country that’s probably pretty unimportant to most Americans, but it’s a pretty great place, in my opinion. Our banks aren’t in trouble. We didn’t have to give them massive bailouts. We have environmental issues, sure, but I think we do a better job managing them. We’re not a NIMBY nation where, when a solution is offered to a problem, people get to vote on whether it would be better off if, say, the transit system ran through the poor neighborhood instead. We get a long pretty well where I come from.
And one thing we NEVER, EVER get all orgasmic over is if our Prime Minister served in the military.
It’s almost like America has to have a war every generation or so just so threy can have a good pool to choose leaders from or something.
Being in the military, arguably, gives a guy or gal a good dose of discipline (although I’ve seen a lot of images in the last 8 years that shows that’s not all it’s cracked up to be anymore either.) And I’m sure it gives one a lot of experience under pressure.
But when it comes right down to it, the job of the military is to shoot people and kill them. How does that qualify ANYONE to be the chief executive of a country.
“I see you’ve shot a bunch of people while serving in Vietnam. And you got a Silver Star because you were very brave. And a couple Purple Hearts. Here are the nuclear codes and a 12 trillion dollar economy.”
Am I the only person who sees the stupidity in all that?
stuckinred
@ET: For 20 years no one wanted to even admit they had been in the Nam. After the Wall went up and there seemed to be a public acceptance of Nam Vets the phonies came out of the woodwork. I think it would be difficult to generalize about motivations. I knew a guy who stood up in front of 200 vets and their families at a Nam Vets event here in Georgia and went on and on. I turned out he had worked on and assembly line with a real Vet and had picked up the lingo. It’s an easy way to get sympathy and people are very reluctant to question anyone else. Most vets can spot the bullshit in a second but there are exceptions.
El Cid
Jimmy Carter and ACORN made banks give all the blacks free houses, that’s why they’re all taking our government money.
H/T GOS.
tenkindsofgrumpy
@stuckinred: Came home from where? Don’t leave any false impressions.
demo woman
Cut and pasted from The Page.
stuckinred
@tenkindsofgrumpy: Ha! Korea 67-68, RVN 68-69. . .thanks for asking.
valdivia
apparently this is no investigative reporting but the McMahon campaign giving their oppo research to the NYT (see Greg Sargent blog for this). Also, the article is a freaking hit job. He as recently as 2008 said he did not serve in vietnam. He was ‘artful’ with the way he phrased things but the case seems murkier than the piece presents.
Libby
Seems to me that old men have traditionally embellished their service records if they were less than exciting. Most of them aren’t running for Congress. I have a feeling that after a while, they believe the revised history themselves if they tell it often enough. And I don’t blame anyone who tried to get out of going to Nam. It was senseless and awful.
I’m not in the camp that this is worst crime in the world, but it was dishonest, stupid and it’s not going to help his candidacy. Given the public mood, getting a caught in any lie is probably the kiss of death. Shame since he had such a lock on the race until now. Hard to see how he can repair the damage and for it to happen this late is going to screw up the Dems generally in CT. Real shame.
Ash Can
@demo woman:
But it shouldn’t depend on this at all. It should be a game changer, period. Someone who behaves like this disqualifies himself from public trust. The fact that he’s a Democrat doesn’t exempt him, nor does the fact that the NYT doesn’t subject nearly enough right-wingers/Republicans to this level of scrutiny.
ETA @ demo woman @ #29: Wait, what? There’s a kernel of truth to what he said, and the NYT failed to report that?
Good fucking grief.
stuckinred
@Libby: There is nothing wrong with having tried to get out of serving in Vietnam. I especially respect people who stood up and said no. Lying about it is a different ballgame. The old men comment is sexist at best.
Lisa K.
@tomvox1:
IMO he’s complete toast, no matter what the actual backstory of his service is. He clearly never served “in Vietnam”.
Steve
If he actually served during the Vietnam era, but didn’t go, I’d be inclined to see this as a one-time slip of the tongue.
tenkindsofgrumpy
@Michael D.: No.
demo woman
School deferments were common!!!!!!!!. The article says he never corrected the newspapers reports, well, duh. He is on record saying he served during that era and clearly stated that he did not fight in Vietnam.
Now for my real feelings on the subject..shitshitshitshitshitshitshitshit.
MikeJ
@Ash Can: Why should it be a game changer? I think people are holding too much against the press and letting the moron voters off the hook.
“I’ve been to war. I’ve raised twins. If I had a choice, I’d rather go to war.”
When Bush said that, it was reported. But Republicans said, “So what? He’s a liar, but he’ll cut taxes and piss off Democrats.”
Politics is about grabbing and holding power. Honesty is a tool you can use to make yourself look better or bash your opponents, but it’s just a tool, not a goal.
Brandon
John,
repeat after me, one more time with feeling, IOKIYAR!
stuckinred
@Michael D.:
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Lisa K.
@Steve:
This was not a slip of the tongue, and my guess is that this is not the first time he’s done it. He was playing to his audience, puffing up his service and creating a false impression in order to “connect”. And it was stupid. All he had to say was “when I was in the service during the Vietnam era” or some such lot.
What an idiot.
wrb
Very, very weird.
I’ve occasionally had dreams so vivid it took me a few days to realize the events they contained hadn’t happened. I wonder if it could be something like that.
Rosalita
I’m just sick about this. I respected him, he’s been such a good AG for us. I can’t believe he would be this careless.
/banging head on desk
4tehlulz
Is it too late for him to switch to the GOP?
David
“We have learned something important since the days that I hiked the Appalachian Trail.”
stuckinred
@Rosalita: What’s you dad think?
demo woman
Do we have any posters from CT? Blumenthal has been involved in politics for a long time and his military record might be known. If he simply misspoke by saying Vietnam instead of Vietnam era, it would have been known and forgotten. On a National level, he is not a known commodity and this would be big news. He’s not running on a national level though.
Guster
Two months ago, during the debate, he said, “I didn’t serve in Vietnam …”
I don’t understand the hyperventilation. Clearly ‘served in Vietnam’ is stumble-talk for ‘was a member of the armed forced during the Vietnam police action.’
Should he have said, ‘Served in the Vietnam era?’ Of course. And is he banging the ‘veteran card’ like, say, Markos does? Sure. But there’s only -one- time that he said ‘serve in Vietnam’ instead of ‘the Vietnam era.’
Gimma a break. Release the pearls.
stuckinred
@wrb: Yea, and I’m father Flannigan from Boys Town.
Barbara
Well, since there are lots of quotes from him in which he made it clear he did not actually serve, I am willing to give him some benefit of the doubt here. There are people who clearly embellish their record — he really doesn’t seem to be one of those. I would also note that the fact that he actually served rather distinguishes him from just about every other Republican senator.
I feel that this article was highly embellished. But yes, probably a “game changer.”
stuckinred
@Guster: Bullshit
Rosalita
@stuckinred:
He’s not up yet, day off. But he’ll be disappointed in him, I’m sure. Something along the lines of “what the FUCK?” followed by “this guy’s setting himself on fire at a high rate speed” followed by more colorful commentary…
Keith G
@stuckinred:
So our warriors succeed…….by planting gardens?
I am not anti military. Our brave gals and guys are a powerful deterrent to most. They are rightfully proud of their effectiveness. This effectiveness stems from their lethality.
stuckinred
There is NO ambiguity in HIS statement, none.
stuckinred
@Keith G: Yea like the lethality they used in Tsunami and earthquake relief.
Keith G
@Guster:
Have you been around here lately?
geg6
Meh. He served out his reserve commitment, unlike a lot of GOPers I could name. He did serve during the era but never went overseas since the reserves were never called up for combat then. And the reserves were what pretty much every guy I knew then prayed for if they weren’t getting another type of deferment. My brother’s voluntary service in the Navy and continuing ability to get stationed stateside as a medic at naval hospitals is little different.
He’s not a combat veteran, but he is a veteran that served at the same time period. He has said so many times in public, as the record clearly shows. I don’t see the big deal.
mellowjohn
i had deferments up the wazoo. nine 2-S, one 1-Y, and one 4-F. but then, i was adamantly opposed to the whole thing from the gulf of tonkin to the end. what a waste.
i agree that it’s pretty damn strange that we demand our leaders be military heroes (whether they are or not), not that it did john kerry a whole lot of good.
but in answer to your suggestion that the good grey times start calling “liar” to right-wing lies, don’t hold your breath.
Adam Collyer
Wait, so this was a statement made at a private event 2 years ago? And as recently as March, he said on television that he had never served in Vietnam, but was in the armed forces during the Vietnam era?
This is a story? This is a reach. If there’s evidence that he regularly distorted his military service record, that’s one thing. On the other hand, this is isn’t exactly a, “We got off the plane under sniper fire in Bosnia” moment. He seems to have a demonstrable record of actually saying it correctly.
stuckinred
@Adam Collyer: Speaking at a VFW is not a private event.
jwb
@stuckinred: Hard to say, really, given that at the same time he made this statement he was also apparently running around the state noting that he hadn’t served in Vietnam. I could definitely see his statement here as shorthand for “when I served during the Vietnam era”—at least from the portion of the video that was posted.
On the other hand, it really doesn’t matter at this point, as the damage is done. Hopefully they will take an honest look at the polling numbers and see whether this is a game changer. A lot will depend, I think, on whether he comes to be seen as the kind of guy who makes such embellishments. To test that, I hope they are out there polling about trust—because if he is tanking in that category, he’s going to have a very hard time getting out of this hole.
Xenos
He was in the USMC Reserve… is it true that such units were like the ‘champagne’ units like the units W. and Dan Quayle served in? If so, times have really changed. I am not that young but I can’t imagine the USMC Reserve being a cushy way to stay out of combat during a time of war.
I guess this is an example where one generation (X) will completely misread important details for another generation.
demo woman
And in other news, another family values republican resigns.
Report: Rep. Souder To Resign Amid Affair With Staffer
Must thank TPM.
stuckinred
@geg6: Just like George Bush.
stuckinred
@Xenos: Yea, those Toys for Tots campaigns are a motherfucker.
fucen tarmal
aw, its sweet really, in the way that psychosis is sweetness and naivete turned sour by reality. he wants to be one of the vietnam vets who were never thanked, because on a deeper level than mere word and deed, he feels unthanked in life./casualpsychology
someguy
Whether he lied or not doesn’t change the fact that this is another MSM swiftboating of a popular democratic candidate.
Brian J
@stuckinred:
That’s what’s so bizarre. It’s not as if he’s manufacturing something out of thin air. It’s that he, for whatever reason, stretched the truth on a couple of occasions. The former is clearly worse, but the latter can and probably will do as much damage to his reputation as the former would.
Adam Collyer
@stuckinred:
I honestly don’t think it changes my point, but that’s fair. He misspoke at an event 2 years ago, and as recently as 2 months ago he was completely accurate in a televised debate for his entire state.
I get upset when politicians blatantly lie. This doesn’t really seem to be the case.
Michael
Hey, for anybody who served in Vietnam and is proud of it, can you tell me what you actually accomplished, given what Vietnam has become today?
Thanks in advance.
Brian J
@someguy:
I don’t think it’s quite up to the level of the Swift Boat nonsense. For one thing, even if you think it’s overblown, he did incorrectly state his record a couple of times.
Keith G
@stuckinred:
I understand your point. We do not fund a multi billion dollar enterprize to feed and cloth the dispossessed.
That is a fortunate off shoot of our allocation of excessive resources to the Pentagon. It is a good thing. I am glad they are able to do other things.
In the past, one of the reasons women soldiers pushed to be forward deployed is that there was a ceiling limiting the rise of officers who had no front line leadership. I understand that. Maybe things have changed.
I know two changes. The Army calls themselves “warriors” and they walk around state side in battle dress.
Nick
He lied about serving in a war zone, and he needs to step down. If he doesn’t step down, then the Democratic Party needs to work against him (but they won’t).
I know there are intelligent people with integrity and character. Why can’t we get them to run for office?
Brian J
@Ash Can:
I wonder if people have heard of Eliot Spitzer and David Patterson. Those two Democrats probably aren’t exactly fond of The Times, to say the least.
Anne Laurie
Let’s face it… if Blumenthal were a Republican, the wingnuts would already be screaming that the DFHs were trying to smear a patriotic veteran to further their evil socia1istic pacifist goals of world domination. And the “sensible centrists” would be writing editorials asking “Have the dirt-flinging moonbats gone too far in their attempts to destroy America’s military?”
Nick
“stuckinred
@Ben:
“Do you think this instance was a slip-up, a goof, a verbal gaffe?”
No fucking way. ”
Ditto. I’m a Vietnam era vet, who served after our troops had withdrawn. I’m careful to make that clear when I explain my service record. He’s a fucking liar.
Nick
Anne, let’s not demean ourselves by lowering our moral standards to those of the average Republican.
Fred X. Quimby
He’s toast.
He’s toast because he either lied/misled people or he couldn’t be bothered to assiduously protect his public profile.
Brian J
@Nick:
As I said last night, it’s particularly frustrating because he had such a massive lead, one that seemed to be making the Republican party almost abandon its efforts to take the seat. But as others, like Nate Silver, have said, the Democrats have a pretty deep bench in Connecticut. So, assuming he needs to go, which is looking pretty clear, there’s not even a partisan excuse for keeping him.
Xenos
@stuckinred: Chill… you are mistaking me for some kind of ill-informed hippy. These days being in the reserve can get you sent overseas in a hurry.
fucen tarmal
ok, i am calling bullshit on the statement from his campaign.
“unlike many of his peers, he volunteered to serve”.
which would be fine, but in that time, they were sending the draftees into combat, and the volunteers were staying home, a former neighbor of mine, who had no one more prominent than school teachers as parents, joined the army as a grunt, instead of being drafted, to get out of vietnam.
sorry, bullshit begets bullshit.
Nick
“It’s that he, for whatever reason, stretched the truth on a couple of occasions.”
There’s a huge difference between being safely stateside and being in a combat zone. It’s not a stretch, and it’s not some simple mistake. The guy is a lawyer–either he knows the implications of the words he’s using, or he is unfit for office as either attorney general or as a U.S. Senator.
He’s either a liar or an incompetent.
wrb
@Adam Collyer:
The facts that he’s been accurate recentl persuades me that it was probably a stumble.
Strict accuracy about part of my background requires a longer construction than is convenient. Including the extra words is difficult in some circumstances. Brevity exerts a powerful pull- especially when the matter is tangental to the central point I’m making. That seems to be the case here- he was focused on the lessons society has learned since the Vietnam era.
stuckinred
@Xenos: These days aren’t those days, Being in the NG or Reserves could get you killed in WWII as well. Vietnam was different because of the jury-rigged draft and deferment system. Are you aware of Project 100,000?
I don’t want to hear this horsehit about people like this that used their connections to evade while building a resume that they could use later. This dude and Bush are one in the same.
nothin personal but I take this all personally
geg6
@stuckinred:
Except that George Bush did not finish his commitment. So, not all like George Bush.
stuckinred
@geg6: It’s exactly like George Bush. This clown did 6 months. I don’t give a shit if he “finished” or not. He used his Harvard ass connections to keep him out of the shit and then runs around pandering with his resume.
someguy
@stuckinred:
So who cares? I mean really. What fuckin’ difference does it make? So a politician lied. Big deal. The question is whether he’s going to do right by us if he’s elected. Based on his record of filing progressively oriented lawsuits, I’m thinking he’d do just fine. The only question is whether there’s a comparable candidate to replace him if he’s kicked off the ticket. There is a kinda sorta deep bench, but if he gets through a week or so without totally tanking in the polls we should stick with him.
Michael
Still awaiting a comment from some Vietnam vet to tell me what his Vietnam service actually accomplished for freedom and ‘Murka. Also, I’d like to add that I’d like to know what that service accomplished for Vietnam.
Again, thanks in advance for any Vietnam vet who feels like expressing this.
Nick
Do we really want to elect people, who at his age, still aren’t comfortable enough with themselves to be honest about who they are and where they’ve been?
This was no minor ‘slip’ of the tongue. Lisa K. at 42 nailed it exactly–he was puffing up his record, deliberately creating a false image of himself for his audience.
Nick
@https://balloon-juice.com/2010/05/18/did-he-think-no-one-would-check/#comment-1769712
“So a politician lied. Big deal.”
I think we can do better. I think we should refuse to accept less.
Steve
As usual, I can’t decide whether the people insisting that this should be the end of his political career are concern trolls or just overreacting.
stuckinred
@Michael: It didn’t do shit, it was a total waste. You need someone to tell you that? You fell better now?
stuckinred
@Steve: I personally don’t give a rats ass about his “political career”. I’m not one of his constituents. If he’s as wonderful as some people here says he is, great, re-elect him. My point is that this part of him is bullshit, not a slip of the tongue.
Scott de B.
The ends don’t justify the means.
Allan
@Ash Can: Actually, it appears that all the research for the article was bankrolled by Linda McMahon, whose campaign fed the story to the NYTimes…
BenA
A nice hatchet job by the “liberal” NY Times…. maybe trying to actually create a story and race in CT where there really isn’t any?
Michael
@stuckinred:
Thank you. You need to remember that every time you get all concern troll-y about whether somebody “served”in Vietnam or not.
Frankly, y’all should be embarrassed to put on your Vietnam vet pins, bumper stickers, etc. Given what Vietnam has become, it shouldn’t be a matter of pride, and the rest of us would really appreciate it if you stopped requiring that we genuflect in your presence.
Thanks in advance for showing at least some sense of propriety.
BenA
@Nick: So we shouldn’t elect a politician who has a history of prosecuting Wall Street crimes because he fucked up a speach about vietnam…. typical Dem bullshit… We’d rather be “right” than win. Screw that.
Nick
I think Bush’s obvious use of his family connections to get him out of combat duty was disgraceful. His claim to be a ‘war president’ was shameful added to the disgrace.
Blumenthal–not QUITE as bad. But pretty close. And if you found Bush’s behavior as repugnant as I did, then it’s hypocritical to give Blumenthal a pass on this.
geg6
@stuckinred:
Well, the fact that he most recently (and most of the time, apparently) is completely honest about his service makes me wonder about the origin of this story and, whaddayaknow, it seems like the McMahon campaign may have had a hand in it. Color me shocked.
And you really need to get over the whole Vietnam thing about deferments and using reserve service to get out of combat. Everybody who could (almost) did it and I have no problem with it. IMHO, it was the rational thing to do. I would have no problem with Bush’s doing it if he had actually completed his commitment. The fact that you are so irrational about this that you don’t see the difference tells me that this is not something you can ever look at rationally.
Nick
“So we shouldn’t elect a politician who has a history of prosecuting Wall Street crimes because he fucked up a speach about vietnam…. typical Dem bullshit… We’d rather be “right” than win.”
If we can’t do better, then we may as well just pack it in. If we can’t muster qualified candidates with enough character, then we have nothing really worth fighting for. We are through as a culture.
We may have reached Yeat’s “The worst are full of passionate intensity, the best lack all conviction.” If we have nobody who embodies values worth defending, then why fucking bother?
Rosalita
Because they have integrity and character?
someguy
@Michael:
+1
It’s wonderful people want to serve their country. Doing so in genocidal wars with racist and economic motivations underlying the slaughter (VietNam, Greneda, Gulf 1 & 2, Afghanistan, plus all the murderous little fights we’ve got going all around the globe) ought to be a source of shame and frankly I’m surprised any of you are so hoity toity about it. Me, I’d be asking forgiveness, not running around trying to say who can and can’t claim partial blame for any given bloodbath.
Kilkee
He’s toast. The NYT video accompanying the story is pretty damning. Not a hint of a misspoken word. he slips through it quite carefully, showing no indication eitehr of a slip of teh tongue or a belated realization that he misspoke. And while it’s true that he has occasionally referred to not serving in Vietnam, apparently he has also been inclined to conflate his service with combat service, including implying rather pointedly and repeatedly that he was among those Vietnam vets who, upon returning home, were spat upon and scorned (something of a myth in itself). There’s no way he can survive this. I only hope he resigns and the Dems are able to put up a substitute, because otherwise there’s a very good chance we’ll be looking at Senator McMahon (WWF-CT).
Rosalita
@Allan:
That’s what I hear from the local Dems… but regrettably it was out there for them to find
Nick
“Frankly, y’all should be embarrassed to put on your Vietnam vet pins, bumper stickers, etc. Given what Vietnam has become, it shouldn’t be a matter of pride, and the rest of us would really appreciate it if you stopped requiring that we genuflect in your presence.”
I think everyone who faced combat over there was damaged in one way or another, some whose wounds show more than others. Those emotional scars will never heal, and those men and women are just doing their best to survive being dealt a shitty hand.
I feel pity and compassion towards most, and try to tamp down my resentment towards any who think they were fighting the good fight.
Nick
Also, there is practically not a single person in the U.S. who has not benefited from our wars of empire in some way or degree. We are all complicit in Vietnam and Iraq, et cetera; the only ones without some blood on their hands left the country rather than be part of it.
Brian J
@geg6:
The fact that McMahon campaign released information isn’t unethical, because it looks like what they fed to The Times is true. It’s not as if they were simply making something up.
Michael
@someguy:
A thousand times this.
mds
@Nick:
Exactly how repugnant did you find Bush’s behavior at the time, Nick?
But thanks for going all in on Linda McMahon’s oppo research. “I’m a liberal Democrat, but since I read a hit piece about a bullshit non-controversy written by one of Blumenthal’s political opponents, he’s barely better than George W. Bush.” So, who else do you suggest be on the ballot when you go in to vote in the CT Dem primary?
Anyway, since he’s spoken correctly about it more recently when talking to those of us who actually have to vote for him, he should be able to come through, despite the Times’ desire to destroy yet another Democrat who’s gone after Wall Street. Because he lied. Yeah, lemme know how many people died as a result, guys; maybe you can check with Judith Miller first, and then STFU about liars and integrity. (What, you couldn’t have sat on this until after the election, the way you did with the illegal wiretapping story?)
Michael
@Nick:
Meh. I no longer give a shit about the “deep emotional scars” or the “traumatic experiences” of your average WATB, VA benefit sucking Vietnam vet. Time for them to move on.
Ash Can
@Michael:
@geg6:
@someguy:
You all need to keep two things in mind. Number one, the vast majority of those who served in Viet Nam did so reluctantly. There was a draft, and all able-bodied young men — and those who cared about them — lived in fear that theirs would be the next number called. Second, deferments were difficult to get if you didn’t have the right connections. Those who managed to finagle service that kept them stateside did so because they had political and/or military connections who could pull strings for them. I repeat: It was typically the wealthy and connected who landed this kind of deferment, and there was no small amount of resentment on the part of the poor slobs and their families who had no choice in the matter.
Viet Nam was a sorry chapter in the nation’s history. Don’t make it worse by blaming the wrong people.
BenA
@Nick: Because I’d rather elect competent, if flawed, people who will.. you know actually do a good job. I’d rather not make a rash decision based on one cherry picked speech, published in a newspaper that’s trying to invent drama in a race that is essentially over…. there’s a difference between making an informed decision and running around like chickens with their heads chopped off.
Steve
For my part, I think Michael’s comments about veterans are absolutely disgusting.
Vietnam may have been a misguided war but it was the government’s screwup, the country’s screwup. Risking your life in service of your country is still a noble thing and I don’t think it becomes less noble because the war doesn’t turn out well.
ruemara
Wait a second, they discover journalism for a Democrat? Not to be bitch, but considering what Republicans lie about day after day without a the slightest hint of pushback, this does not change my opinion of modern journalists.
Nick
“Exactly how repugnant did you find Bush’s behavior at the time, Nick?”
I think the invasion of Iraq was a war crime and that Bush and key members of his cabinet, including members of the Office of Special Plans, should be tried for crimes against humanity. My younger brother (another vet) and I marched here in Minneapolis against the war on about February (15th?) 2003. I have “Veteran for Edwards/Kerry” and “Obama/Biden 2008” stickers on the front and back of my car.
Are those bonafides sufficient for demanding that Democratic candidates meet a higher ethical standard than Republican candidates?
Nick
“Meh. I no longer give a shit about the “deep emotional scars” or the “traumatic experiences” of your average WATB, VA benefit sucking Vietnam vet. Time for them to move on. ”
The good news is there’s a party made exactly for you–they’re called Republicans.
ChrisB
Also, what kind of asshole claims he was captain of the Harvard swim team when he never went into the deep end of the pool?
The Times really lays into him in that article, pointedly refuting every false claim he makes about his record.
I remember that Tom Seaver and I think several other New York Mets were in the Marines reserve at about that time. Perhaps now I now why.
chuck
We cannot tolerate a politician that lies about something like this. Clearly we need to replace him with a Republican who will lie to us every single day.
I didn’t used to be such a loyal partisan hack til having to see such a parade of psychopathic motherfuckers with the ( R ) after their name ever since Reagan. I wasn’t alive for most of Nixon, but if I read my history correctly, they were actually ashamed to some extent of his behavior.
So being a good partisan, I would have to vote for the liar anyway, because he doesn’t seem to be actively trying to screw me at every opportunity.
Neutron Flux
@Michael: After careful consideration of your opinion, Fuck you.
ETA comma
Michael
@Steve:
This is how we came to honor the “oh so noble” Confederate soldier to the point of forgetting about why that little dustup happened.
I suspect that the reason why German and Japanese army units didn’t have big blowout reunions frequently after the war was because the cause they served was ignoble. You didn’t see that service prominently mentioned in campaign materials of candidates who were in those militaries, either.
We could learn from that.
Nick
“We cannot tolerate a politician that lies about something like this. Clearly we need to replace him with a Republican who will lie to us every single day.”
I think we should kick all the corporate-owned motherfuckers out, with the exception of Kucinich, Feingold, and any other congress people not wholly owned by big business.
Bluto
@Michael/someguy:
Still feeling the humiliation of your appearance on FOX, where both Hannity and Colmes exposed you for the pathetic assnugget that you are?
FYI: Michael and his sock puppet someguy is the revolting parasite behind the “Forsake the Troops” website scandal.
This is not a partisan issue.
mds
Yeah, how fortunate that Obama, Biden, Kerry, or Edwards never made a false statement on a matter irrelevant to any substantive policymaking, or you’d be either stupid or a hypocrite.
Nick
I don’t know that I’d characterized service in Vietnam as ‘noble’. But I separate compassion for the men and women caught up in that mess from the scorn I hold for the politicians responsible for it. And I also have a fair amount of scorn for all those who talk shit but never back it up with actual action.
Socrates declined an opportunity to escape his death sentence, arguing that by continuing to live in Athens and enjoy its benefits, he implicitly agreed to abide by its rules–good and bad. Similarly, those of us who despise the atrocities perpetrated by the U.S. over the past 50 years and yet have remained in this country have implicitly agreed to those acts done in our name.
Steve
@Michael:
Maybe you honor the Confederate soldier, but I sure don’t. The Confederate soldier didn’t serve his country, he rebelled against it.
Your comparison of American soldiers in Vietnam to Nazis is… well let’s just say misguided. Just because the war was a fuck-up doesn’t change the fact that our country was trying to contain and defeat Communism. As opposed to, say, a mission of trying to conquer Europe and exterminate undesirable racial groups, which I wouldn’t be proud of participating in, either.
someguy
Where do you get the sock puppet thing? I’m just curious because if I am Mike’s sock puppet, then I’ve spent an awful lot of time commenting on other threads, just to drop one insult on the troops here.
FWIW, I don’t despise our troops. Like I said, I think it’s great that people want to serve our country. But I’m sick of the troop worship combined with our involvement in one misbegotten, racist, corporate-imperialist war after another. It’s supreme hypocrisy to condemn the U.S.’s murderous actions abroad, while then claiming to venerate the troops. Do our soldiers have no moral culpability for joining up and supporting these causes? I get it that most in VietNam were drafted. But it’s been an all-volunteer force since around 1975.
I remember being scandalized when Reagan put flowers on Wehrmacht graves in the 80’s. They may have been fine individuals, *but they served evil*. So what’s the distinction with our troops who are making the world safe for American economic and political exploitation abroad? The Germany comparison isn’t fair. We probably are not as evil – not all at one time anyhow – as Germany was (though the Native Americans we exterminated like bugs and the Africans hauled here in chains might disagree on this point) but it’s the same type of mindset. Our troops are just following orders, so we honor their sacrifice… WTF?
Michael
@Bluto:
“Waaaaaaaah! Leave the Vietnam vets alone!”
LOLZ
Anyway, that there is some fine detecting there. You’ve decided that me and someguy are a single sockpuppet for an operator of a website I never heard of until your post.
Is it so hard for inhabitants of right wing echo chambers to believe that more than a few people might not agree with the hero worship afforded to military service?
Patty K
Blumenthal may be like a case here in Chapel Hill some years ago who, after a shooter roaming the streets was brought down, told media that he had stealthily stalked the shooter from building to building and then rushed and tackled him etc when he had done none of those things which someone else had in fact done. Was he deliberately lying? Maybe, but his story was so easy to disprove. It might have been that he wished he had been that brave to the point where he really thought he had been.
wrb
@ChrisB:
An extreme one.
However, the article doesn’t say that he claimed it, just that it was claimed in an article about him.
I can’t remember an article about me that didn’t contain a mistake, sometimes a bizarre one. None to match the blurb in my sig’s RISD alumni mag that claimed she was in charge of art in Alaska, though.
Having now read the whole article it all seems murky to me. Maybe it was shorthand, maybe puffery, maybe his grip on reality slipped. Nothing that would cause me to not support him though.
What stands out is the lack of such a take-down article after each and every Republican lie.
It is expected so it isn’t news?
Mike in NC
A bit before my time, but the vast majority of the friends and neighbors I’ve known who were Vietnam vets are hardcore right-wingers today.
They despised people like John Kerry — who they felt stabbed them in the back by protesting and organizing against the war — and resented that they weren’t allowed to “win” their dirty little war, even if it cost a couple million more lives.
These guys all adored Ronald Reagan for his bullshit macho image, they’ve voted 100% Republican for decades, and many are now involved in the Tea Party movement. You couldn’t pay me to walk into a VFW or American Legion hall and listen to them piss and moan.
Michael
@Steve:
The average Wehrmacht conscript wasn’t a Nazi. He was a Wehrmacht conscript, serving a vile cause.
Now, as to the “contain and defeat Communism” line, have you noticed what the victory by Communist Vietnam brought about? A stable country with a benign government and a thriving mixed economy. It is a worthy and trustworthy trading partner that isn’t trampling its neighbors.
Had we “won” (whatever the hell that means), would the place today look like the warlord dominated kleptocracy we supported in the South?
In other words, was there something to be said for the goals of Ho Chi Minh from the very start?
Michael D.
@Ash Can: I don’t think they ARE blaming the wrong people. People who went to Vietnam are partially responsible. Here’s what you do when you don’t want to go kill people who did nothing to you.
REFUSE TO GO.
What could you better live with?
A. Spending time in jail for refusing to go.
B. Razing villages and slaughtering people.
People who went to Vietnam are partially to blame. If everyone who was against the war refused to go, there would not have been a war.
Following orders in the armed services is necessary.
Following orders blindly, however…
Steve
Threads like this are important to remind me that there are people a heck of a lot more liberal than me.
stuckinred
@Michael D.: Hey motherfucker all this shit is easy to say 45 years after the fact. Did you do anything? If so, great, if not, shut the fuck up.
One more thing, if you pay one dime in taxes you are as culpable as anyone who was or is in uniform.
North Dallas Thirty
Oops, too bad, Cole.
You know the DSCC that holds your leash and that is whining about Sarah Palin “lying”?
They support and endorse Blumenthal and say that he isn’t lying.
So according to the DSCC, the Obama Party, and Barack Obama, telling an outright falsehood like Blumenthal did is NOT LYING.
Michael D.
@stuckinred:
I love how you come back with reasoned arguments.
I obviously did not participate in the little Vietnam jungle adventure. But I know what I would have done. And it would NOT have included going somewhere and shooting up villages just because some politician told me to.
Because I couldn’t live with that and I would have stood up to it, no matter what the consequences.
I’m guessing you didn’t.
stuckinred
@North Dallas Thirty: Where does it say that?
stuckinred
@Michael D.: You don’t know shit. I joined on my 17th birthday in 1966 and served in Korea and Vietnam. I came home and was active in the VVAW and participated in Operation Dewey Canyon III in DC. I have always respected those who stood up and refused to go. Your bullshit about what others should and should not have done is just that, bullshit.
Xenos
The “Obama Party’?
I checked your link, and you are lying when you say that Obama has “[said] that he isn’t lying.” Blumenthal’s campaign has said that the report was an ‘outrageous distortion’, which it is, yet indeed does not say that Blumenthal told the truth in those speeches. Indeed, the DSSC is not even quoted in the article you linked to!
Is this how you get to be a wingnut – showing that you can’t even read and understand a short text at an 8th grade reading level?
Michael D.
@stuckinred:
Ahmmmm. No.
Paying taxes obligates you to demand that those dollars are spent wisely.
Maybe you’re right. My paying taxes is exactly the same as you blowing the head off some innocent woman or child or napalming a village.
Ash Can
@Michael D.: Do you really, honestly think it was that easy? Seriously?
Those who refused to go were jailed and fined. “Conscientious objector” status was awarded extremely rarely. Those who avoided the draft by leaving the country were not allowed to return.
I know you’re too young to have experienced the Viet Nam War years firsthand, but really, you’re very poorly informed on them if you think the solution to the problem was, simply, not to go. Saying “don’t go” to a draftee is the same as saying “get a job” to a homeless person.
Xenos
@Michael D.: Oh for god’s sake cut this shit out. I am about as left-wing as an American can get and this is beyond stupid. It reads like a right-wing spoof troll of how they imagine liberals really think.
stuckinred
@Michael D.: You’re a fucking punk.
Dr. Squid
@Brian J:
This is the GOP and this is the Times. We know from the Gore campaign that both are willing to “improve” quotes to make a political hit.
stuckinred
Jesus, I left Firedoglake because of morons like these Mikes.
Michael D.
@Ash Can:
I would rather ANY of that happened to me than shoot anyone for nothing.
Every one of these people had a name. They had children. They had mothers and fathers.
But hey! You might get jailed or have to pay a fine!
@Xenos: And Xenos, that’s how anyone with a shred of humanity SHOULD THINK!
Michael D.
I’m done.
stuckinred
@Michael D.: AMF asshole/.
Xenos
@stuckinred: Just recognized the name – Michael D. used to be a right-of-center front-page poster here. This must be someone else using his name. Ignore the troll.
Keith G
@Ash Can:
Well said.
@Michael:
The boys from my small Ohio town weren’t asked such heady questions before they were forced to report to an induction depot. One of the boy who taught me how to play hockey, never came back. It was a horrid time.
Mike, you are being an ass.
@Michael:
Yeah, quite an ass.
stuckinred
@Xenos: Thanks
Bluto
@Xenos: Michael Crook is neither leftwing nor rightwing. He is heartily despised by all.
Go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQa8G3336fQ) to watch him get mercilessly bitchslapped by both Hannity and Colmes.
Poopyman
So did the Times sit on this until after the primary? ‘Cause that’s just how they usually roll.
North Dallas Thirty
Wrong answer, as ironically pointed out by one of your fellow Obama Party members.
Oh, the irony — a liberal screaming about my reading comprehension when it’s obvious that it didn’t even read the article it’s attacking me about.
Not that it’s surprising, though; after all, Barack Obama and his puppets like Napolitano and Holder don’t read laws before wetting themselves about them.
brantl
@stuckinred: That may not be what they spend most of their time on, but it’s definitely the most important in the job description, buckwheat.
brantl
@Steve: “Didn’t turn out well? Do you remember the Mai Lai massacre? That went on FREQUENTLY, in Nam. If your house was underwater, would you say it was “a little damp”, dipstick?
brantl
@Nick: No.
daniel rotter
In the linked article from North Dallas Thirty, Menendez or anyone else from the DSCC never said or implied that Blumenthal “isn’t lying.” When condemning someone for uttering a falsehood, it’s pretty wise to avoid them yourself.