Not All Americans Are Equal

Last week, they wanted to deport American citizens. This week, they want to pick and choose which Americans deserve rights under the law:

Congressional Republicans want to know whether the Pakistani-born American arrested in the Times Square car bombing plot was read his Miranda rights, with Sen. John McCain saying it would be a “serious mistake” if the suspect was reminded of his right to remain silent.

“Obviously that would be a serious mistake until all the information is gathered,” McCain (R-Ariz.) said on “Imus in the Morning” when asked whether the suspect, Faisal Shahzad, should have been Mirandized.

Rep. Peter King (N.Y.), the top Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, wants to know whether the Justice Department consulted with the intelligence community.

“I hope that [Attorney General Eric] Holder did discuss this with the intelligence community. If they believe they got enough from him, how much more should they get? Did they Mirandize him? I know he’s an American citizen but still,” King told POLITICO.

“I know he’s and American citizen, but still” really says it all, doesn’t it?

Half our political leadership wants a banana Republic, and our media is just treating it like it is another opinion. At what point do we start calling these people what they are?

And I just don’ know what to say about the obviously insane John McCain. You would think that someone who spent half a decade in a cage with no rights whatsoever in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life, would have the slightest bit of respect for the rule of law. You would, of course, be wrong.

Also, too.






233 replies
  1. 1
    Violet says:

    That kind of thing would never be said if the suspect were a white guy, even if he were a naturalized citizen. Never.

  2. 2
    SpotWeld says:

    Some people are more equal than others.

  3. 3
    r€nato says:

    I demand to know why he hasn’t yet been waterboarded!

    …this is all of a piece, of course. Arizona law creates 2nd-class citizenship for brown people, especially if they speak Spanish.

    Rep. King and other assorted crypto-racists now want a 2nd class of citizenship for naturalized citizens.

    This is just a step or two removed from slapping pink triangles or yellow Stars-of-David on them.

  4. 4
    El Cid says:

    Why are we still presuming anyone “innocent until proven guilty”, and giving them the opportunity to get lawyers, even providing them and stuff?

    Don’t we realize we’re at war? Or on a war footing? Or something?

  5. 5
    cleek says:

    methinks conservatives believe “right” is a synonym for “privilege”.

  6. 6
    litbrit says:

    At what point do we start calling these people what they are?

    Seditious, anti-American, Constitution-undermining bigots?

  7. 7

    Yeah. Because he was brownish they should have assumed he was a furriner and not read him his rights. Even though that might have screwed up the entire case from the start we must still make sure we don’t accidentally extend basic rights and protections to suspects because shut up, that’s why!

  8. 8
    r€nato says:

    @SpotWeld:

    Some White people are more equal than others.

    FTFY

  9. 9
    Stroszek says:

    At least they’re being consistent. Remember how McCain bemoaned reading Miranda Rights to the lily white terrorists who were plotting to kill police officers?

  10. 10
    r€nato says:

    Those talking ads are killing me, JC. I hope you’re getting good money for them.

  11. 11
    SpotWeld says:

    Even if they don’t read him his Miranda rights, he still has them.

    Isn’t the whole point of Miranda rights the prevent someone from claiming ignorance of them, therefore invalidating any statement he makes.

    Wasn’t that the whole point of the Miranda ruling.

    (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_v._Arizona)

    The Court held that both inculpatory and exculpatory statements made in response to interrogation by a defendant in police custody will be admissible at trial only if the prosecution can show that the defendant was informed of the right to consult with an attorney before and during questioning and of the right against self-incrimination prior to questioning by police, and that the defendant not only understood these rights, but voluntarily waived them.

    So, anyone who doesn’t want his Mirandized is bascially putting some brain-fever of a “24” senario over the ability of the police to do thier job a support a conviction of a terrorist.

    McCain is saying a terrorist in hand is worth less than two in the bush.

  12. 12
    dmsilev says:

    Can we waterboard Peter King? Just because? I know he’s an American citizen, a Congressman, and allegedly a human being, but still.

    dms

  13. 13
    Comrade Jake says:

    It’s almost like these people take pride in being assholes.

  14. 14
    les says:

    Half our political leadership wants a banana Republic,

    Uh, yeah, and that half already won.

  15. 15
    Maude says:

    Someone plz tell McCain to STFU.
    King is R-IRA.

  16. 16
    scribe9 says:

    @SpotWeld:

    Exactly. The reading of Miranda rights protects the police and the prosecution, not the suspect who has the same rights whether they are read aloud to him or not.

    That’s pretty much why they’re called “rights.”

  17. 17
    Brian J says:

    As much as I disagree with it, I can understand the thinking that those who aren’t citizens don’t deserve the same rights as those who are. It’s short-sighted, nationalistic (but not in a good way), selfish, and probably counterproductive, but it’s still, I guess, a legitimate point of view, at least in the sense it isn’t based on fantasy.

    But those who have the reaction like King aren’t even basing their thoughts on that. It looks like they simply don’t like people who aren’t like us.

  18. 18
    Bnut says:

    Saw a clip of Glenn Beck this morning on Fox adamantly defending Mirandizing of the guy. Even a blind dog finds a bone every now and then.

  19. 19
    "Fair and Balanced" Dave says:

    “Obviously that would be a serious mistake until all the information is gathered,” McCain (R-Ariz.) said on “Imus in the Morning” when asked whether the suspect, Faisal Shahzad, should have been Mirandized.

    Obviously the non-Maverick is either unaware or has forgotten that if a suspect is not Mirandized, any statements the suspect makes in a post-arrest interrogation and any evidence found based on information divulged in those interrogations are inadmissable in court.

  20. 20
    cat48 says:

    Just heard that the plane had left the gate and readying to taxi when they got this idiot, but the important thing to know is whether or not he was given his rights.

  21. 21
    Svensker says:

    But Obama killed the Constitution with HCR so we don’t have to bother about it anymore. And anyway, it only applied/s to Approved Citizens, not just anyone. Sheesh.

  22. 22
    beltane says:

    Let us just say that we have reached the point where we should, and must, call these people what they are. We will regret it later if we do not do it now.

    In 2008, the GOP’s slogan was “Drill, baby drill”. In 2010 it sounds like their slogan will be “White Makes Right”.

  23. 23
    JGabriel says:

    @Violet:

    That kind of thing would never be said if the suspect were a white guy …

    I think the “Pakistani-born” would have trumped “white”. I could be wrong, of course, but being white didn’t much help American-born John Walker Lindh – which confirms, at the very least, that “Muslim” trumps “white”.

    .

  24. 24
    Mr Furious says:

    Fucking ridiculous.

    He was an American citizen ARRESTED by LAW ENFORCEMENT in New York Fucking City.

    THAT MEANS HE GETS HIS FUCKING RIGHTS READ TO HIM!!!!!!

    Full. Fucking. Stop.

    Or would you rather have this entire case thrown out of court?*

    *Obviously the answer to that is they don’t want this guy in a courtroom they want him in a hole with a fucking hood on his head. But I’d like to think that a rushed investigation resulting in an arrest in a matter of hours have time to be subject to some review beyond that of John McCain and Rush Limbaugh.

  25. 25
    UncommonSense says:

    Is too much to expect that Politico might ask “But still…” what?

    And then would it be too much to expect them to print the answer?

    I suppose so, since they apparently did neither.

  26. 26
    JGabriel says:

    @Mr Furious:

    He was an American citizen ARRESTED by LAW ENFORCEMENT in New York Fucking City.
    __
    THAT MEANS HE GETS HIS FUCKING RIGHTS READ TO HIM.
    __
    Full. Fucking. Stop.

    This.

    .

  27. 27
    David Hunt says:

    You would think that someone who spent half a decade in a cage with no rights whatsoever in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life, would have the slightest bit of respect for the rule of law. You would, of course, be wrong.

    Oh, I’m sure that you’d be right about any number of people. Unfortunately, John McCain is not one of them.

  28. 28
    beltane says:

    @JGabriel: John Walker Lindh was a traitor to his race or so we’ve been told.

  29. 29
    jrg says:

    Seditious, anti-American, Constitution-undermining bigots?

    Yes, but you see – that’s what anti-war activists were called back in 2003, so pointing out that Republicans genuinely want to strip (non-white) suspects of their legal rights means that both sides are equally guilty of overheated rhetoric.

    Because, as we all know, rhetoric is just words. It carries no weight, and refers to nothing in the real world.

    Think of it this way: if you fuck my dog and take a dump in my sunroof, and I call you indecent, it’s just as bad as if you don’t like my Hawaiian shirt, and call me indecent. We’re both equally guilty of being shrill.

  30. 30
    El Cid says:

    Who do we think we are to have trials & stuff for terrorists?

    Some advanced democracy like India?

    Exactly 525 days after he landed on the city’s coast, with nine other gunmen, and mounted attacks that killed 166 people, a special court on Monday held Mohammed Ajmal Amir Kasab (22) guilty of murder and waging war against the country.
    __
    Fahim Ansari (36) and Sabauddin Ahmed (25), the alleged Indian co-conspirators, were acquitted for lack of
    evidence.

  31. 31
    beltane says:

    @David Hunt: The end effect of torture is that it often breaks people. John McCain is clearly one of the broken. If he were not in the Senate, I would have a great deal of compassion for him.

  32. 32
    Woodbuster says:

    No, don’t read him his rights. NO WAY!

    Then, when his case gets thrown out of court becuase he was not read his rights, Mr. Dumbfuck McGrumpy can get in front of the cameras and yell, “Hoocouldanode?!?”

    And this bullshit: “in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life,” doesn’t hold water, dude. Bullfuckingshit.

  33. 33
    sukabi says:

    @Violet: that might have been true at one point, but with the last 10 years and the vilification of everything liberal / progressive I doubt that it would take more than a minute for the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity and then some “respected” republican official to suggest otherwise.

  34. 34
    Citizen Alan says:

    Obviously the non-Maverick is either unaware or has forgotten that if a suspect is not Mirandized, any statements the suspect makes in a post-arrest interrogation and any evidence found based on information divulged in those interrogations are inadmissable in court.

    Based on what? Stare decisis? The Rule of Law? The last time the Supreme Court revisited Miranda was in 2000, and there were two votes then (Scalia and Thomas) for overturning it outright and rendering admissible any statements made by an un-Mirandized suspect so long as a judge found them to be “voluntary.” Since then, we’ve had 9/11 and we’ve replaced O’Connor and Rehnquist (who wrote the 2000 opinion reaffirming Miranda) with Alito and Roberts. I fully expect the Court to revisit Miranda again in the context of a terrorism case within 5 to 10 years and can easily imagine it being overturned.

    I was born six months into Nixon’s first term. Every day of my life has been a day this country has moved towards fascism. Why should I expect tomorrow to be any different?

  35. 35
    El Cid says:

    @JGabriel: The Constitution only applies when it comes to the latter half of the 2nd Amendment, and the 10th Amendment.

  36. 36
    Barry says:

    @dmsilev: “Can we waterboard Peter King? Just because? I know he’s an American citizen, a Congressman, and allegedly a human being, but still.”

    Oh – is he? Does he have documentation on his person proving *any* of the above? And I mean the original long-form paper copy.

  37. 37
    slag says:

    “I know he’s and American citizen, but still” really says it all, doesn’t it?

    I think you may be underestimating the potential of this particular construction, John. Think of all the mishaps you can excuse yourself from if you use it. For instance, “I know that an oil spill will cause untold damage to our environment, but still…”. Or if you want to bomb Times Square, “I know people will be killed, but still…”. Or if you’re Jeffrey Dahmer, “I know he’s not in any of the four food groups, but still…”. Seriously, a lot of potential here.

  38. 38
    Gregory says:

    Not All Americans Are Equal

    Some Americans are more equal than others.

    …or, what SptWeld @ #2 said.

  39. 39
    Morbo says:

    @El Cid: Only took 525 days despite India being the most bureaucratic place on earth. But the co-conspirators were acquitted, so obviously what India’s doing doesn’t work.

  40. 40
    Rosalita says:

    @r€nato:

    you and me both. co-workers are looking at me funnier than usual

  41. 41
    Scott P. says:

    Just heard that the plane had left the gate and readying to taxi when they got this idiot, but the important thing to know is whether or not he was given his rights.

    Nobody “gives” him his rights. He has them under the Constitution. They are inalienable.

  42. 42
    Gene says:

    I really do wonder if McCain will drop his opposition to torture, in order defeat Hayworth, if the subject ever came up about how to handle prisnoers.

    Not reading someone their Miranda rights is sort of a gray area where you aren’t following the law, but still a step away from waterboarding them.

    It’s sad politicians will give up what they “believe in”, in order to hold onto their seats. They sure must lace those elected offices, with some strong stuff, because folks will say or do anything to keep getting elected; holding onto those seats seems more like an addiction at times than anything else.

  43. 43
    sparky says:

    all true, and well put.

    and yet, every time someone on this blog says “it’s a difficult decision” or “we can’t let people go” or “Bush made a mess and it’s hard for Obama to sort it out” they are at the end of the day, endorsing McCain’s view.

    why? because the animating proposition behind governance of laws rather than autocrats is that the rules of the legal system are always applied, not just when it’s easy, as in this case. real representative democracy with the English-originated legal system is difficult to manage and maintain, especially in a nation of nervous bed-wetters. but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.

    @Citizen Alan: agreed. all you can do is stand up and yell about it, even if it means you are “shrill” or in Obama-defender-speak “a firebagger” or “unserious” or whatever the epithet du jour is.

    yeah i know i’m here a lot today. got my broadband connection back :P

  44. 44
    dricey says:

    @cleek: Conservatives do think rights are just privileges. I remember them referring to Constitutional rights not as rights but as privileges ‘way back under the Lord God Reagan.

  45. 45
    JG says:

    McCain’s principles seem to involve saying anything, no matter how crazy, in order to win reelection in Arizona. I’m sure AZ Republicans will enjoy having the “Don’t mirandize terrorists!” dog whistle blown. I’m sure that will solidify him as a basically as crazy as they are.

  46. 46
    Gregory says:

    @Violet:

    That kind of thing would never be said if the suspect were a white guy, even if he were a naturalized citizen. Never.

    Heck, the word terrorism would never be said if he were a white guy.

  47. 47
    feebog says:

    He was an American citizen ARRESTED by LAW ENFORCEMENT in New York Fucking City.

    THAT MEANS HE GETS HIS FUCKING RIGHTS READ TO HIM.

    Full. Fucking. Stop.

    It doesn’t matter whether he is an american citizen or not. The Constitution does not specify that you have to be a citizen. ANYONE arrested in U.S. territory has the right to an attorney and habeas corpus.

  48. 48
    West of the Cascades says:

    I have to disagree with the people who are saying that there’s a “right to be read your Miranda rights.” That’s not the point of Miranda — th purpose of Miranda is to exclude evidence from a criminal trial that was obtained in a custodial interrogation UNLESS the person has been notified of his/her right to remain silent, right to counsel, etc. Miranda exists to guarantee that no one is criminally convicted because they’ve been coerced into testifying against themselves or have been interrogated without a lawyer present.

    If you have sufficient evidence to convict someone EVEN IF THEIR OWN TESTIMONY FROM THE INTERROGATION IS EXCLUDED BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT MIRANDIZED, it’s potentially reasonable to not give a person in custody the warning if you’re looking to have them talk about other subjects (e.g. other potential suspects).

    So although they are expressing it in the most vile way possible, the ultimate point that McCain and King are getting at – that it may be reasonable in some cases to forgo reading someone his/her Miranda rights – is not unreasonable.

    Miranda isn’t a “right” in and of itself, just because we’ve come to expect it from Teevee. It’s just a way of saying “if the government DOESN’T advise someone of their constitutional rights, then they can’t use any testimony obtained in the custodial interrogation to convict that person.”

    Let’s not lose sight of legal distinctions because our gut says we ought to hate the haters (McCain, King).

  49. 49
    kay says:

    I wondered if they’d draw a distinction. Didn’t have to wonder long.
    It’s generous that Representative King offers his suggestion: that the prosecutor consult with the police and reach some sort of all-state “consensus”. Who’s missing from this deal he’s cutting?
    What version of the Constitution are they handing out at those Tea Parties, anyway?

  50. 50
    The Moar You Know says:

    I was born six months into Nixon’s first term. Every day of my life has been a day this country has moved towards fascism. Why should I expect tomorrow to be any different?

    @Citizen Alan: I was two years old when Nixon got his first term. I wish I could argue that in some way you are wrong.

    You are not wrong.

  51. 51
    Gregory says:

    @cleek:

    methinks conservatives believe “right” is a synonym for “privilege”.

    Well, to be fair, they also consider the privilege of getting filthy rich by creating dodgy financial “products” without being taxed a right, so their confusion isn’t surprising.

  52. 52
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Brian J: Actually, non-citizens do not have the same rights as citizens. For example, they do not have the right to vote, to serve on juries, or to be commissioned officers in the military. As far as other rights enumerated in the Constitution, many are rights that “persons” have.

  53. 53
    slippy says:

    @Bnut: I’m sure once Limbaugh weighs in with the GOP-approved talking points, Beck will be forced to back down.

    Or he’ll melt down and explode. Either will be enjoyable to watch because Beck is such a useful idiot.

  54. 54
    twiffer says:

    if they are hoping they don’t read him his rights, they must be holding out for a secret military tribunal, right? cause otherwise, they are basically asking for evidence to be inadmissable. something most reasonable people would consider to be stupid.

  55. 55
    The Moar You Know says:

    Related: The Supreme Court has voted to close their doors.

  56. 56
    West of the Cascades says:

    @Mr Furious:

    Your case doesn’t get thrown out of court if you don’t Mirandize someone — you just don’t get to admit any evidence from that interrogation or that you develop based on that interrogation. So if they have this guy’s fingerprints and DNA all over the SUV and video of him parking it in Times Square and walking away, you probably don’t need evidence from the interrogation to convict him.

    Indeed, what do you think the “right to remain silent” means? Once you tell someone they have the right to remain silent, they usually fucking do so – so there’s often no evidence from the interrogation, so the DA has to make the case with other evidence.

    Not reading the Miranda rights (and excluding anything someone subsequently says) gets you to about the same point that reading Miranda does most of the time — i.e. you STILL get into court and still have to make the case based on evidence other than what the suspect him/herself has said.

  57. 57
    Hob says:

    Not trying to antagonize anyone here, especially former military folks who could probably kick my ass with one eyelash, but I’m a little bothered by the “McCain the POW was fighting for our way of life” thing. I’m OK with saying he served his country in the general sense that soldiers do, and I’m sorry for his horrible suffering. But “this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life” were not actually being attacked in the Vietnam War, at least not by any foreign enemy, so McCain couldn’t have been defending them. And I’m not sure he ever knew much about them.

  58. 58
    Bnut says:

    New winger talking point:

    Obama and Holder are giant sandy vaginas for not charging the man with treason and having a public execution live from Madison Square Garden.

  59. 59
    Chuck says:

    Oh hey wow, all those hundreds of years of forming the foundations of democracy, all that blood and treasure, all the struggle, I never realized that it really just wasn’t all that important, because of this compelling argument:

    “but still”

    How could all our traditions of freedom hope to stand up to such eloquence. Bravo sir, I shall follow you wherever your brave words take us. “But still” — that shall be our slogan, our motto, our credo. “But still”.

  60. 60
    Some immigrant guy says:

    I’m still working on becoming a citizen, but if I get the chance, I’d like to ask McCain why should I bother.

    I know I’m not entitled to all constitutional protections today, but if I naturalize, what difference does it make? (I don’t look Hispanic either, in case that becomes more of an issue.) I’m shelling out thousands of bucks to immigration lawyers to keep things on track, but seems kind of stupid given the contempt certain Republicans attach to citizenship.

  61. 61
    El Cid says:

    @kay:

    What version of the Constitution are they handing out at those Tea Parties, anyway?

    The true TeaTard Constitution is not the mere written document along with evidence from the writings of the Founding Fathers, but the Constitution they believe in in their hearts, and in their guts.

  62. 62
    SpotWeld says:

    @West of the Cascades: There is the fact that statments made would be inadmissable.

    Let’s say this guy was part of a larger group.

    If rats them out while not having been mirandized, then the subsequent search for these other culprets would be jepordized if the key evidence against them are the statements made by this first suspect.

    No cop wants to be the guy who let them get away because the evidence against the terrorist cell became inadmissable.

  63. 63
    Keith says:

    Yeah, intentionally not read Miranda to a US citizen. That’ll work out real swell when it gets to court, and you can’t appeal an acquittal to SCOTUS, either.

  64. 64
    SpotWeld says:

    Can we add “but still” to the lexicon for reasons of mealy-mouthed-ness of the same level as “also, too”?

  65. 65
    demo woman says:

    The President made a short statement on the arrest of the suspected terrorist. ABC interrupted daily broadcasting to air the President’s statement. Before returning to regular scheduling Sawyer did bring up whether or nor the suspect was mirandized. Just fuck! Rather than realizing that an average citizen brought the car to the attention of law enforcement and rather that focus on the fact that he was arrested withing 48 hours, they will focus on Miranda rights.
    Just fuck.

  66. 66
    El Cid says:

    @Bnut:

    having a public execution live from Madison Square Garden

    IN IMAX 3D!

  67. 67
    kay says:

    @El Cid:

    I get a ridiculous amount of satisfaction at watching the McCain Myth implode. He was always a fraud.

  68. 68
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @demo woman:

    ! Rather than realizing that an average citizen brought the car to the attention of law enforcement and rather that focus on the fact that he was arrested withing 48 hours, they will focus on Miranda rights.

    On TV they catch people within an hour, including the commercials.

  69. 69
    El Cid says:

    By the way, since we chose not to have the terrorist trials in New York, we saved the city from terrorist attacks.

  70. 70
    kay says:

    @demo woman:

    Did she mention that Richard Reid was Mirandized? He was.

    The bobbleheads love the lazy compare-contrast unless it butts up against a lie they want to promote.

  71. 71
    demo woman says:

    @kay: If MSM still takes their cues from McCain, his reputation is still intact .

  72. 72
    Ash Can says:

    Who cares about petty details like justice and the rule of law when there are political points to be scored?

  73. 73
    Poopyman says:

    You would think that someone who spent half a decade in a cage with no rights whatsoever in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life, would have the slightest bit of respect for the rule of law. You would, of course, be wrong.

    I would think that someone who spent half a decade in a cage with no rights whatsoever in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life would have some serious, serious scars from that experience, and I would seriously question his judgment until it was proven normal. The fact that this guy is a senator and made it to the finals of the presidential sweepstakes in spite of all evidence still scares the shit out of me.

  74. 74
    Martin says:

    @kay:

    What version of the Constitution are they handing out at those Tea Parties, anyway?

    The old white Protestant version, of course.

  75. 75

    @Bnut:
    “giant sandy vaginas”

    I suppose this charming phrase was invented by a man?

  76. 76
    David Hunt says:

    @beltane:

    Yes, I had a rambling piece after that sentence about how how I’d read that Police States submit their torturers to torture as part of the initial training to desensitize them to the suffering of others, but I couldn’t make it work on the page. Also, I wasn’t sure if it was the torture or political ambition that made McCain stop caring about torture being wrong, so I deleted the second part of my post.

  77. 77

    @Some immigrant guy: Welcome aboard!

    And you have as much right to express your opinions as anyone else. That is one of the birthrights of Earthlings.

  78. 78
    LarsThorwald says:

    He was reckless enough to select Palin, he’s certainly reckless enough to say careless, stupid things about the law.

    He’s a goddamned menace.

  79. 79
    Bnut says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    One assumes so. Though I’ve heard it used liberally by women as well (mostly Marines, so maybe that skews the data).

  80. 80
    neil says:

    Excellent! So now it’s a mistake for law enforcement officers to follow the law – undoubtedly so the case could thrown out of court on a technicality.

    Brilliant strategy. Which is why Walnuts is now President.

  81. 81
    NobodySpecial says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Giveaways are best done in private, dontcha know.

  82. 82
    Poopyman says:

    @SpotWeld:

    Can we add “but still” to the lexicon for reasons of mealy-mouthed-ness of the same level as “also, too”?

    My spidey sense is telling me we’ll find it up top on the header real soon.

  83. 83
    Svensker says:

    @Hob:

    Yes. I got an e-mail from a dear friend, a liberal, whose son just joined the Navy, asking for us all to thank “the troops” for protecting our freedoms. I can’t do it. I can say, “thank you for being willing to serve in the military” (although right now I’m not sure that’s a good thing either — I’d rather kids boycotted the military) but I sure as hell can’t thank them for “protecting our freedom” cuz they ain’t doing that. And haven’t been doing that for a very long time.

    Speaking as someone who volunteered for the Army back in the 70s.

    Also as a DFH.

  84. 84

    @West of the Cascades:

    Once you tell someone they have the right to remain silent, they usually fucking do so – so there’s often no evidence from the interrogation, so the DA has to make the case with other evidence.

    False.

    Seriously, serve some time on a grand jury. Spend some time with successful police officers – ones who get their cases wrapped up frequently and cleanly.

    Even though you told them, most of them will talk if you do it right. And right isn’t threaten them with death. The single most successful method is a sympathetic ear. The good-cop/bad-cop does actually work, provided good cop can do the sympathetic ear and bad cop doesn’t overdo things.

    Remember, once you’ve read them their rights you can still ask questions, and all the answers are admissable. If he asks for his attorney, once the attorney gets there you can still ask questions (though the attorney will interfere) and the answers are admissable. And then there’s the real sneaky thing:

    If he’s asked for an attorney you can still ask question. You can’t admit the answers to court, and you risk poison fruit, but NOTHING prevents the law enforcement guy stepping out and the foreign intel guy continuing the friendly ear. Not admissable is not the same as not usable.

    But the real thing is that most of them talk provided someone listens. Those who don’t usually were silent even before their rights were read. That’s how it works outside the movies.

  85. 85
    beergoggles says:

    @dricey: It has to do with their view that anyone unlike them getting the same rights they do means they get ‘special-rights’. They treat it that way when it’s the gays, blacks, hispanics, atheists demanding equal rights.

    Rights are only for white xtians. Privileges and special-rights are for everyone else.

  86. 86

    @Bnut: Aah, yes. Marines.

    They do have a wonderful way of saying things, don’t they?

  87. 87
    NobodySpecial says:

    As an aside, if we’re going to selectively toss aside Constitutional protections on a ‘but still’, I wanna start by pulling the Second Amendment protections from every single member of the NRA, liberal and wingnut alike.

    After all, they may be American citizens, but still.

  88. 88
    Sloegin says:

    Someone should have asked SuperMaverick about the oath he’s taken both as a US naval officer and as a United States Senator…

    Something about supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic if I recall… true faith and allegiance to the same, yadda yadda.

    Not territory, persons, or property. The Constitution.

  89. 89
    Mr Furious says:

    @West of the Cascades: You are taking my statement FAR too literally. Like a good lawyer should, I suppose. The fact remains that refusing to Mirandize a suspect is no way to start a potentially complex and obviously incredibly important case. You are planting a poision tree, even if you don’t end up eating any fruit in the trial.

    As for this:

    If you have sufficient evidence to convict someone EVEN IF THEIR OWN TESTIMONY FROM THE INTERROGATION IS EXCLUDED BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT MIRANDIZED, it’s potentially reasonable to not give a person in custody the warning if you’re looking to have them talk about other subjects (e.g. other potential suspects).

    I’m not lawyer, but it sounds to me that if statements given are inadmissible, then information from those statements that lead to other arrests have a high risk of turning out to be tainted. Is a search warrant or arrest based on an inadmissible statement going to blow up a case in court? Seems likely. Why risk it?

    This would seem to be the kind of case where every SAC or police brass would be under intense pressure to do things perfectly by the book and cross every T. At least that’s the way the criminal justice system is supposed to work. These idiots want to, instead, push every line, and cut every corner.

    It’s arguably unconstitutional, legally dubious, and just flat out the fucking wrong way to do things.

  90. 90
    Martin says:

    @Some immigrant guy: Boy, there’s a hidden argument for immigration reform right in your statement. Streamline the process, hire more people to keep the paperwork on track, and have you start paying taxes sooner rather than give it all to lawyers.

    Nothing against lawyers, but they don’t really need the economic stimulus…

  91. 91
    El Cid says:

    @Svensker: “The troops” don’t protect our rights at home. From actual foreign threats to our rights — from, I dunno, some force which could invade us. But there’s not much the troops could or would do to, say, stop our own government from destroying our rights. That’s a job for citizens, not troops.

  92. 92
    bkny says:

    @Violet:

    i have so been thinking of all those illegal irish who planted their asses in queens a few years back — taking construction and nanny jobs that good old muricans should have had. you can bet, petey o’king would have had jack shit to say.

    a couple of months back there was an IRA bombing — and i was waiting for the denunciations from king. and am still waiting.

  93. 93
    Llelldorin says:

    You would think that someone who spent half a decade in a cage with no rights whatsoever in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life, would have the slightest bit of respect for the rule of law. You would, of course, be wrong.

    Actually, that’s one of three possible reactions. You could also get severe mental instability, or a desperate desire to get the “other guy” (however you perceive them) into the cage first in the future.

  94. 94
    John Cole says:

    @West of the Cascades: Have you bothered to watch even ONE episode of the First 48?

    Barring that, talk to someone in law enforcement (and I don’t mean Mall Security). People quite frequently talk at great length about their crimes after being mirandized.

  95. 95
    Joe Lisboa says:

    “I know he’s and American citizen, but still

    New tagline, perhaps? Or at least a tag?

  96. 96
    stuckinred says:

    @Hob:

    “this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life” were not actually being attacked in the Vietnam War, at least not by any foreign enemy,

    What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

  97. 97
    stuckinred says:

    MSNBC just reported that 5 Pakistani’s have been arrested in Pakistan as part of this op. Bet they don’t get no stinkin mirandized!

  98. 98
    Hypnos says:

    @stuckinred: that the Vietnam war was a war of aggression, based on the continuation of a colonialist policy, and that Vietnam posed no threat to American security. And, I’d wager, that the violations of human rights committed in Vietnam by American forces were the actual attack on American values and principles.

  99. 99
    stuckinred says:

    @Hypnos: Oh, excuse me professor.

  100. 100
    PTirebiter says:

    I thought terrorists were trained to resist our wily interrogation techniques. I guess McCain and King think the carefully guarded Miranda decision somehow escaped their attention. There was absolutely no reason to not read him rights.And every reason to do it right.

  101. 101
    Zifnab says:

    So, let me see if I get my order of operations right here.

    Step 1: Investigate the Crime
    Step 2: Blame foreign government
    Step 3: Blame Democrats
    Step 4: Apprehend Suspect
    Step 5: Determine his citizenship
    Step 6: Determine his race / credo / religion
    Step 7: Mirandize if appropriate, otherwise beat with billy clubs until a confession is extracted
    Step 8a: Release any white white collar criminals
    Step 8b: Extradite everyone else to foreign country secret prison
    Step 9: ???
    Step 10: Profit

    That about right? One would almost think just reading everyone their damn Miranda rights would be easier than undergoing the ten step “Are you Real American enough for civil rights” litmus test every time you catch a criminal.

  102. 102
    bemused says:

    @Comrade Jake:
    For the majority of them, I think you are absolutely right. If you’re not a prick, you’re just a wuss & can’t belong to the asshole club.

  103. 103
    Darkmoth says:

    You see, despite training terrorists to resist interrogation, AQ forgets to tell them not to confess. By reminding them they can be silent, we are losing valuable intel.

    /or something

  104. 104
    Hypnos says:

    @stuckinred: you’re welcome.

  105. 105
    petesmom says:

    I don’t remember. Did John McCain and Peter King have a panic attack over whether the Hutaree Militia were mirandized?

  106. 106
    Paris says:

    McCain needs to be reminded that not only does he have the right to remain silent, he has the patriotic duty to STFU.

  107. 107
    stuckinred says:

    @Hypnos: I think Jane Hamsher is calling you.

  108. 108
    Twinky P says:

    @Linda Featheringill:

    Firebaggers are known to use this particular phrase a lot, too. I was in the Navy, but the first time I’ve ever heard it was at FDL. Classy joint, there.

  109. 109
    Dr. Psycho says:

    When Frederik Pohl and Cyril M. Kornbluth wrote The Space Merchants in 1950,it was merely satire to say that keeping suspects in the dark was an “ancient principle” of American law….

  110. 110
    GregB says:

    How soon before these fascists will propose that all American Muslims wear a felt crescent patch at all times?

  111. 111
    EdTheRed says:

    I wholeheartedly concur with the suggestion that “…but still” be added to the lexicon. It pretty much says everything you need to know about the GOP today.

  112. 112
    Paris says:

    @Zifnab: “Step 8a: Release any white white collar criminals”

    You forgot to reimburse them for any losses plus interest or give them a tax break in the case of environmental rape.

  113. 113
    Poopyman says:

    @petesmom:

    Did John McCain and Peter King have a panic attack over whether the Hutaree Militia were mirandized?

    Of course not, but speaking of those guys, did anyone mention their future plans in light of yesterday’s shooting in Detroit?

  114. 114
    Some immigrant guy says:

    @Martin:

    I already pay taxes. And I’m here legally, just I am not yet a citizen.

    And I don’t object to my immigration lawyers taking their fees – they are extremely nice people too, in case they are reading – but why bother with it all if one half of the political establishment doesn’t give a damn about your status. Maybe I should stick with my mutt-citizen status (South African-British-Croatian with some unofficial Danish) if anyone can get tossed in Gitmo for being terrorist-looking.

  115. 115
    bemused says:

    @Kirk Spencer:
    Those now elderly surviving WW2 interrogators who spoke out during Bush adm against torture knew what they were talking about. They managed to get info by taking their time getting prisoners to trust them & asking the right questions.
    I’ve never understood why the righties think it is unamerican & pampering the accused to out smart them vs practically killing them. Any parent using his/her brain knows using psychology on five year olds works while whipping their butts is counter productive. I think righties just like to punish people, makes them feel powerful.

  116. 116
    scudbucket says:

    “I know he’s and American citizen, but still” really says it all, doesn’t it?

    Is it really surprising that the same folks who defend torture as a lawful intelligence gathering technique, and support a law that requires racial profiling near the Mexican border, would also be in favor of eliminating other restrictions on the exercise of police power? The GOP vision of America is a fully functioning police state.

  117. 117
    GregB says:

    Gov. Christie in New Jersey is removing the only Black justice on the state supreme court so he can put in a GOP hack.

    I believe this would be called tyranny if it were Gov. Corzine had done the reverse.

  118. 118
    Hob says:

    @stuckinred: That was supposed to mean that America was never at any point in danger of losing its legal tradition or way of life to the North Vietnamese, so McCain was not defending those things by his service as a naval aviator in that war. I threw in the qualifier about “not by any foreign enemy” because our laws and traditions did come under attack back then, by people like Nixon and Kissinger. If you think that’s a really bizarre outrageous thing to say, I’m not sure how you can survive five minutes reading this blog.

  119. 119
    WereBear says:

    @bemused: I think righties just like to punish people, makes them feel powerful.

    I firmly believe the overwhelming majority of righties come from the school of: “My daddy used to beat me bloody, and I came out all right.”

    Yes, he did, and no, you didn’t.

  120. 120
    bob h says:

    You have a right to remain silent unless your skin reflectivity is too low.

  121. 121
    Brachiator says:

    @John Cole:

    “I know he’s and American citizen, but still” really says it all, doesn’t it?

    DON’T YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND!? When it come to terrorists, ALL civil liberties and constitutional rights become a luxury that we must surrender, otherwise the terrorists will have won.

    Except guns.

    We gotta keep guns. Because nothing makes a wingnut feel … good … like a long, warm, weapon. And torture of suspects in custody.

    In the 1840s, it was “Tippicanoe and Tyler, too.” Now its Second Amendment and Gitmo, also too.

  122. 122
    Citizen_X says:

    @kay:

    What version of the Constitution are they handing out at those Tea Parties, anyway?

    ITS CALLED THE BIBLE AN RITTEN BY GOD, DAM COMUNIST!

  123. 123
    stuckinred says:

    @Hob: Skip it pal, I am a Nam vet and was active in the VVAW when I came home. I don’t need any fucking lectures and I goddamn sure can “survive” on this blog.

  124. 124
    Ed Drone says:

    @El Cid:

    That’s a job for citizens, not troops.

    Or, as the militia types would put it, “That’s a job for citizen troops.” Which is true, but a problem when it’s a small group of citizens choosing to “troopify” themselves against a government that is not a threat to our freedoms.

    Ed

  125. 125
    catclub says:

    @Mr Furious: #89

    I’m with West o’Cascades.

    Miranda is for protection against SELF-incrimination,
    not other-incrimination – which is not in the bill of rights.
    So your self-incriminating statements taken before miranda
    may be excludeable – at YOUR trial, but at the trials of others,
    all your statements incriminating others are not particularly excludeable from THEIR trials.

    I am just reading the block you quoted from West back to you.

  126. 126
    Eric U. says:

    the whole thing about allowing people to exercise their rights is that we give them a fair chance to show that they didn’t do the crime. But the republicans would rather shoot someone in the head than find the person that actually did the crime. They haven’t noticed that it isn’t particularly rare that the wrong person is charged with a crime, or they don’t care if the guilty get off.

  127. 127
    ericblair says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    As an aside, if we’re going to selectively toss aside Constitutional protections on a ‘but still’, I wanna start by pulling the Second Amendment protections from every single member of the NRA, liberal and wingnut alike.

    Funny thing with the Bible and the Constitution: it seems that they’re very hard to read when you’re waving them in other people’s faces all the time.

  128. 128
    Kyle says:

    Apparently, the only way to be proclaimed Serious About Terrism(TM) in the Village is to piss your pants and toss away in a panic the Constitution you swore to uphold.

    Anything else just isn’t Republican Manly enough to lead the country while We’re At War(TM), but not so much at war as in the Bush years that we can’t call the President a Kenyan Commie Maoist Muslim Nazi.

  129. 129
    FormerSwingVoter says:

    The terms coward and traitor no longer seem strong enough to describe the Republican Party.

  130. 130
    SpotWeld says:

    @catclub: The point is, a statment against another individual in this instance would be a statement confirming conspiracy with that individual. That would argualbly pull it back into the area of self-incrimination.

  131. 131
    El Cid says:

    We need to have a law allowing police to stop and arrest anyone who looks like a terrorist, and if they do not have the papers to prove they are not a terrorist, they can be deported to Gitmo.

  132. 132
    Hob says:

    @stuckinred: Huh? I didn’t lecture you. You asked what the fuck I meant, and I explained what the fuck I meant. And it sounds like you’re not actually trying to defend the rightness of the Vietnam war, so I really don’t have a clue what you’re so pissed about, or why you’re not fighting with everyone else here all the time (since I don’t think my opinion is all that uncommon– that’s all I meant by that last bit– “survive” was a bad choice of words).

  133. 133
    Michael says:

    OT, but Frank Gaffney has gone even stupider than usual.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?f.....eId=149117

    There is renewed alarm about the possibility of an EMP attack – electromagnetic pulse – on the United States because of Iran’s work on a multi-stage Space Launch Vehicle, according to a report from Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin.

    And experts forecast if such an attack were a success, it effectively could throw the U.S. back into an age of agriculture.

    “Within a year of that attack, nine out of 10 Americans would be dead, because we can’t support a population of the present size in urban centers and the like without electricity,” said Frank Gaffney, president of the Center for Security Policy. “And that is exactly what I believe the Iranians are working towards.”

  134. 134
    FormerSwingVoter says:

    QUESTION: How is this even a part of our political discourse? How is this even fucking happening?!?? How can people say things like “Maybe Americans shouldn’t have Constitutional rights if I just… don’t want them to, I guess”? Let alone actual elected members of Congress?

    ANSWER: Because when the media runs McCain’s quote from above, the headline will be “McCain Disagrees with Obama!”, and not the more accurate “Old Coward Advocates Treason!”

  135. 135
    Mark S. says:

    @Bnut:

    Geez, it’s not everyday one can say Glenn Beck is the voice of reason.

    Are there going to be any more teary eyed “What Ever Happened to the Maverick?” stories? Haynesworth is incredibly dumb, but could he be appreciably worse than Walnuts has been in the last two years?

  136. 136
    Zifnab says:

    @Mark S.: Show me how Haynesworth’s voting record is going to change. Given that McCain is in a hard-right primary after having come out of an election that polarized the nation, I don’t see him turning back into Mavericky McMaverickson the Bipartisan Maverick any time soon. If he gets out of this race alive, he’ll be completely torn over which side he wants to dick over more – the moderate left which stopped lapping him up, or the far right which stabbed him in the back.

    Either way, he’ll happily camp the Senate and chant “F’m all” till his breath runs out. That sounds about like what Haynesworth is going to do.

    I’m just rooting for Haynesworth because he’s such an insufferable asshole. The biggest virtue McCain held for the Republican Party was his ability to get along with the Washington media. I doubt Yosemite Sam for Senate is going to perform as well.

  137. 137
    someguy says:

    @FormerSwingVoter:

    QUESTION: How is this even a part of our political discourse? How is this even fucking happening?!??

    It seems you can move the Overton Window for intelligence downward, if you work at it long enough.

  138. 138
    flukebucket says:

    @Michael:

    Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin.

    I don’t care who you are that is funny.

  139. 139

    Wow, they made 2 arrests in Pakistan already. Just think about how many more there would have been if we’d waterboarded the guy!

  140. 140
    El Cid says:

    Yet another Christian Right / Family Research Council leader is found vacationing with a gay male prostitute. (H/T GOS.)

  141. 141
    The Populist says:

    Arrests made in Pakistan. Weird how this works? Gee, you treat somebody properly UNDER THE RULE OF LAW and guess what? More info is discovered. Imagine that!

    Fuck these whiny righties.

  142. 142
    Mark S. says:

    @Zifnab:

    he’ll be completely torn over which side he wants to dick over more

    That’s pretty much McCain’s political career in a nutshell. But I think McCain still hates Obama above all else, and will vote no on everything.

  143. 143
    The Populist says:

    @Mark S.:

    No…I hope he wins solely on the middle finger principle. Plainly speaking, McCain has worn out his welcome.

  144. 144
    Barry says:

    @Mark S.: “But I think McCain still hates Obama above all else, and will vote no on everything. ”

    Besides, d*cking over his fellow Republicans isn’t as ego-boosting.

  145. 145
    El Cid says:

    If you people keep questioning John McCain’s qualifications to be President, Bob Schieffer’s going to have to cry again on TV.

  146. 146

    […] John Cole: ” Half our political leadership wants a banana Republic, and our media is just treating it like it is another opinion. At what point do we start calling these people what they are?” […]

  147. 147
    Rosalita says:

    @Hob:

    FWIW I saw nothing wrong with your initial comment; and you were being respectful. My dad’s a VN vet and he wouldn’t have taken offense to that line of discussion — which is all it was — discussion

  148. 148
    JCT says:

    @bemused:

    For the majority of them, I think you are absolutely right. If you’re not a prick, you’re just a wuss & can’t belong to the asshole club

    Lord, by this point you would think the asshole club is filled and not taking new members.

    And King’s statement is disgusting. How low can they go?

  149. 149
    SpotWeld says:

    And in case anyone was wondering yes, he’s talking

    Shahzad has been answering questions asked by investigators who want to know whether he acted alone when he tried to blow up a 1993 Nissan Pathfinder in Times Square on Saturday, or if he was part of a larger plot.

  150. 150
    Elie says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    While I hear what you are both saying and don’t completely disagree that there are some troubling trends, a lot good has also happened since that time. We DO have a more diverse society with more opportunity for all. I think that has resulted in a lot of fear and reaction which brings about some of the sense you have about the facism (which is more the default approach when people in power get scared).

    While there are some troubling trends around the low political education and other education of the American people, I believe that the internet has had positive impact on the access to information from a variety of sources and that always gives me hope…

    Again, there are some troubling trends, but the news is not all bad — not at all

  151. 151
    HumboldtBlue says:

    in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life,

    Ya see, that’s where your train goes off the track. The reason this bitter, hateful old coot could not give a flying shit about inalienable rights is because he wasn’t defending our nation, our laws or our way of life, he was dropping fucking napalm on people who wouldn’t know Annapolis if it dropped napalm on them.

    Stop with the “the military only fights to protect our nation” bullshit. It’s a false premise, one that hasn’t been true since 1945.

  152. 152
    stuckinred says:

    @Rosalita: OK, you are right. . . both of you.

  153. 153
    kay says:

    @SpotWeld:

    Shahzad has been answering questions asked by investigators

    Hah. Like that will placate Dick Cheney.

    What if he’s not giving the right answers? What then, liberal smart guy?

  154. 154
    Original Lee says:

    @Michael: Ow. My head hurts from the stupid.

  155. 155
    artem1s says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    ! Rather than realizing that an average citizen brought the car to the attention of law enforcement and rather that focus on the fact that he was arrested withing 48 hours, they will focus on Miranda rights.

    On TV they catch people within an hour, including the commercials.

    they CATCH them in 20 minutes, then take the rest of the hour (with commercial breaks) to try him.

  156. 156
    LuciaMia says:

    Just had to post this, from Daily Kos…

    Notorious NARTH member and vigorous gay adoption opponent Dr. George Rekers was caught by the Miami New Times as he returned from a ten-day vacation with a young male prostitute that he hired on Rentboy.com.

    Sweet!

  157. 157
    Svensker says:

    @Michael:

    OT, but Frank Gaffney has gone even stupider than usual.

    OMG. I’m moving to an island. That’s it, had it, kaput, finito, it’s ovah.

  158. 158
    Bulworth says:

    Actually I’m kind of surprised they would even make the “American citizen” distinction. I assumed they were pretty much well beyond that sort of consideration and were ready to disregard the rights of anyone, citizen or not.

  159. 159
    LD50 says:

    @slag:

    I think you may be underestimating the potential of this particular construction, John. Think of all the mishaps you can excuse yourself from if you use it. For instance, “I know that an oil spill will cause untold damage to our environment, but still…”. Or if you want to bomb Times Square, “I know people will be killed, but still…”. Or if you’re Jeffrey Dahmer, “I know he’s not in any of the four food groups, but still…”. Seriously, a lot of potential here.

    I agree. When I catch my daughter in a completely false statement, to where she can’t wriggle out of it anymore, she often replies “Yeah, but still!” The catch is, she’s 15 years old, which is about the level of maturity Peter King exhibits.

  160. 160
    crshedd says:

    interesting to note that miranda rights came out of miranda v arizona (1966). obviously, arizona historically has all sorts of problems when it comes to constitutional guarantees.

  161. 161
    Mr Furious says:

    @catclub: It’s all semantics…

    The fact is, suspects should be presumed innocent until proven guilty and read their rights when apprehended.

    Getting cute because this is “terrorism” is no excuse.

  162. 162
    Nutella says:

    Today is the anniversary of the Haymarket Riot/Massacre/Affair. A labor demonstration in Chicago in 1886 ended in an explosion that killed 7 police officers and nobody knows how many civilians. It remains controversial to this day because we still don’t know who provided or threw the bomb. The teabaggers of the day immediately railroaded and executed as many anarchists as they could find. No one knows who was guilty of the bombing and that was OK as long as some unpopular people were executed for it.

    Some things don’t change.

  163. 163
    Mr Furious says:

    @SpotWeld:

    And in case anyone was wondering yes, he’s talking

    Who cares? Once we start torturing him we can fill rooms of file cabinets with the coerced false confessions he spews to make it stop.

    Dick/Liz (Dickless?) Cheney told me so

  164. 164
    El Cid says:

    If the attempted terrorist had used a Toyota Prius instead, no one could have stopped it.

  165. 165
    rootless_e says:

    In a nation where “Heckuva Job” Brownie is asked for his opinion on the Obama administration’s response to the BP spill, we know that rationality is in short supply.

  166. 166
    robertdsc says:

    The terms coward and traitor no longer seem strong enough to describe the Republican Party.

    This. 100%

  167. 167
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    O/T: Breitbart’s merry band of idiots is upset that the new Robin Hood movie doesn’t cast the titular hero as a teabagger. My questions:

    1) Why would they be surprised by this?
    2) Don’t they hate Robin Hood anyway because he takes from the rich and gives to the poor, which makes him a goddamn filthy SOSHULIST!?!?
    3) Why am I trying to find logical consistency in teabaggers in the first place?

  168. 168
    jibeaux says:

    I don’t know which is stupider, the idea that not reading a citizen suspect their Miranda rights solves more problems than it creates, or the conspiracy theory that Obama, who six weeks ago declared that we were going to do more offshore drilling, somehow engineered an oil disaster to clamp down on offshore drilling — i.e. Obama is conspiring to make Obama look like an idiot.

    I mean, I know it’s an anti-intellectual party and has been for some time, but we’re getting into anti-primary school education territory here.

  169. 169
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @nutella: Illinois Governor John Peter Altgeld deserves to be more widely know and remembered.

    Magrady Graham.

    TELL me, was Altgeld elected Governor?
    For when the returns began to come in
    And Cleveland was sweeping the East,
    It was too much for you, poor old heart,
    Who had striven for democracy
    In the long, long years of defeat.
    And like a watch that is worn
    I felt you growing slower until you stopped.
    Tell me, was Altgeld elected,
    And what did he do?
    Did they bring his head on a platter to a dancer,
    Or did he triumph for the people?
    For when I saw him
    And took his hand,
    The child-like blueness of his eyes
    Moved me to tears,
    And there was an air of eternity about him,
    Like the cold, clear light that rests at dawn
    On the hills!
    Edgar Lee Masters, Spoon River Anthology.

  170. 170
    scudbucket says:

    Fox News says Kent State students got what they deserved

    Well, they’re right of course, I mean, the riot was going on for three full days before the cops decided to shoot anyone, and there maybe kinda-sorta, were some shots fired at the Nat. Guard since there is no evidence confirming that shots weren’t fired.

    Hippies suck.

  171. 171
    Mr Furious says:

    @Bubblegum Tate: My question would be, “Don’t these stupid dicks realize Ridley Scott probably had this movie in post-production a year before any of these morans thought of the phrase Tea Party?”

    Or do they really think Scott and Russell Crowe were so enchanted by their movement that they whipped up this film and tricked liberal Hollywood into making it lickety-split.

  172. 172
    Mr Furious says:

    @scudbucket: Fuck, they deserved it just for being un-American. Riots or no.

    Amirite?

  173. 173
    El Cid says:

    @Mr Furious: Robin Hood clearly was in the historical record as wearing a tri-cornered hat and stapling teabags to his head, while carrying an Obama = Hitler sign around.

  174. 174
    Bnut says:

    According to Joe Lieberman, we ought to revoke citizenship for terrorists. Before or after we torture them Joe?

  175. 175

    […] Benen and John Cole offer complementary takes on the complaints of John McCain and Peter King that the apparent Times […]

  176. 176
    Lauren says:

    Although I do agree with McCain to an extent, I do not agree with him saying it aloud. Honestly, I feel like what he said is right, simply because it would be good for us to find out all the information possible, however, he needs to take into consideration that he is in a place of public watch, especially as a politician, he needs to be extremely careful with the words he chooses to use.

  177. 177
    Johannah S says:

    I believe that when the American citizen plotted to terrorize our country, he disregarded his citizenship. When he chose to bring about terror on our nation, he was forgoing his rights, and therefore should have been taken as a terrorist.

  178. 178
    Rosalita says:

    @Bnut:

    well we knew droopy dawg would show up on the scene not long after President McCain… so fucking predictable

  179. 179
    scudbucket says:

    @El Cid: If the attempted terrorist had used a Toyota Prius instead, no one could have stopped it.

    But then everyone would have known it was an inside job orchestrated by the left to take our guns away.

  180. 180
    Emily says:

    How can we as citizens do our part to stop discrimination like this? Is it just about raising awareness?

  181. 181
    Mortos says:

    @West of the Cascades: I just don’t understand why it would be a “mistake” to read him his rights, especially if they already have plenty of evidence.

  182. 182
    Mortos says:

    @scudbucket: How does a Prius make it an inside job and how does this help the left to take our guns away? I’m all for the second amendment but I see no connection.

  183. 183
    jibeaux says:

    @Johannah S:

    You rationalizing maroon, the whole point of reading Miranda rights is that you are reading them to a SUSPECT. He may be a terrorism SUSPECT, he may have no regard for his American citizenship and so be it, but in this country there is no place for pre-arrest judgment of guilt. Don’t we teach civics anymore? Didn’t we outlaw lead paint in 1978? I do NOT understand it.

  184. 184
    cyntax says:

    @Johannah S:

    So once someone is accused of plotting against this country, they lose their rights?

    Do you really not see how this is a problem?

  185. 185
    jibeaux says:

    @Mortos:

    I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that McCain could not offer you a single plausible way in which it would be a mistake, and is just finagling to find ways to make himself more Amurica First! than Hayworth. I know, cynical, right? Slap my face.

  186. 186
    Martin says:

    @Mortos: Because any act that puts the American population at risk must somehow be tied to a failing of Obama. Blaming Obama is the goal, everything else is a disposable excuse for reaching that goal.

  187. 187
    Martin says:

    I would just like to note that when politicians are attracting the derision of tech blogs, they’re really wandered out in the deep weeds.

  188. 188
    MikeJ says:

    @Martin:

    Because any act that puts the American population at risk some somehow be tied to a failing of Obama.

    And the corollary, everything that Obama does puts Americans at risk. Everything is fodder for the narrative.

  189. 189
    cyntax says:

    @MikeJ:

    And the corollary, everything that Obama does puts Americans at risk. Everything is fodder for the narrative.

    Hey, they just like their logic to be symmetrical.

  190. 190
    burnspbesq says:

    @West of the Cascades:

    Bullshit. In the real world, if you don’t Mirandize suspect number one, you can’t try any of the other guys he gives up or use any of the evidence he leads you to, because that’s all fruit of the poisonous tree. The most incompetent public defender on earth will kick your ass in the hearing on the motion to suppress, because this is all black-letter law that every 2L knows by heart.

  191. 191
    soonergrunt says:

    And I just don’ know what to say about the obviously insane John McCain. You would think that someone who spent half a decade in a cage with no rights whatsoever in the defense of this nation and our laws and legal tradition and way of life, would have the slightest bit of respect for the rule of law. You would, of course, be wrong.

    This.

  192. 192

    Meanwhile, General Paul Eaton — unlike Messrs. McCain, Lieberman and King — remembers the oath he swore to protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, enemies which, from their own statements, would appear to include McCain, Lieberman and King (h/t Greg Sargent):

    I don’t understand how a Senator or a Congressman can challenge the Mirandizing procedure,” Eaton, who is also a senior adviser at the Dem-leaning National Security Network, told me. “The laws are clear. Rep. King and Senator McCain have advocated a position that could cost us this case.”

    Thank you, General Eaton, for remembering your oath.

  193. 193
    Culture of Truth says:

    “I know he’s an American citizen but still”

    ARRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHH!!!!

    Ok, I’m calm now. Well, not really.

  194. 194
    cyntax says:

    @soonergrunt:

    Of course we’re talking about McCain. The guy who opposed expanding the GI Bill for Iraq and Afghanistan vets. If he doesn’t have the backs of rank and file GI’s, it’s no surprise he’s completely cocked-up about Constitutional issues.

    The guy cares about self-aggrandizement and nothing else.

  195. 195
    The Moar You Know says:

    Although I do agree with McCain to an extent, I do not agree with him saying it aloud. Honestly, I feel like what he said is right

    @Lauren: Well, then you have no respect for the Constitution, and you do not deserve the privilege of being a citizen of the United States.

  196. 196
    MikeJ says:

    @Culture of Truth: I feel your pain. How do you satirise “but still”?

  197. 197
    Ash Can says:

    Please tell me that neither Lauren nor Johannah S is a US citizen, because I can’t bear the thought of Americans being that thoroughly ignorant of their own country.

  198. 198
    Mike in NC says:

    If you people keep questioning John McCain’s qualifications to be President, Bob Schieffer’s going to have to cry again on TV.

    We can see where this is going: either Schieffer or Gregory or some other hack will hold a panel discussion on Miranda next Sunday. Oddly enough, John McCain, Peter King, and Rudy Giuliani will all be available to share their deep thoughts!

  199. 199

    @Johannah S: Really. And if it were the wrong person? What then? We say, “Oops. My bad. Have a cookie and your citizenship back.” It’s not about the suspect, it’s about us! Good lord. Jeebuz wept.

    @UncommonSense: That’s what I asked over at TBogg’s place. But still what? I bet old Petey would splutter (heh, I wrote slutter first) over that one.

    @Phoenix Woman: Oh, thank you for that quote. It makes me feel a little better.

  200. 200
    Nutella says:

    @Mike in NC:

    Wouldn’t it be great if a cop came onto the set during the panel discussion and demanded to see McCain’s papers? After all, we have reasonable suspicion that he is not a citizen because we’ve all heard that he was not born in the US.* I’m sure he won’t mind providing his papers to any cop who asks.

    An actor playing a cop, that is, just to make the point.

    (*) He was born in the Panama Canal Zone. I expect Johannah and friends are not aware of this fact.

  201. 201
    bemused says:

    @JCT:
    It’s never been a problem. They just splinter off into more asshole groups multiplying like rabbits.

  202. 202
    Tsulagi says:

    “I know he’s an American citizen, but still” really says it all, doesn’t it?

    Pretty much. But I have little doubt that between King and the mavericky now non-mav they likely had at least half a dozen flag lapel pins on their asses while bringing their latest stupid.

    OTOH, you can see from their perspective why they would be concerned and fear for the country. On one hand you have a really smart terrorist who cleverly changes the plates and removes one of three VINs (leaving the other two) on his SUV to fool authoritehs. An SUV he bought. Off Craigslist using his real name. Genius then loads some individually flammable shit into the SUV along with some fertilizer that was the wrong type to make boom. Maybe he intended to green up Central Park on the way? Anyway, drives to Times Square, lights up some fireworks inside the SUV apparently thinking Allah would be the real detonator using his offering leveling NYC.

    Yeah, I can see why King and Country First McCain would be afraid of this guy. He’d easily outsmart them if they mirandized him.

  203. 203
    IndieTarheel says:

    Just scanning the channels and the CNN anchor (don’t know his name) says that Jack Bauer would have pegged the bad guy in 24 hours. With a straight face.
    __
    Even if you’re a “news”-reading bobblehead, when Glen Fracking Beck makes more sense than you do on any given subject, it’s time for you to get fired.
    __
    Out of a cannon.
    __
    Into the SUN.

  204. 204
    Bnut says:

    Not being a wet blanket, but how is this different than Obama giving the green light to kill American citizens in AfPak with predator drones?

  205. 205

    @asiangrrlMN: No problem, asiangrrlMN. I credit Greg Sargent with having the presence of mind to realize that pushback from a prominent military officer was needed, and he hit a home run with General Eaton.

    Spread this far and wide — and emphasize that the oath that Senators and Representatives take is like that which armed servicemembers must take, in that it enjoins the oath-takers to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States”.

  206. 206
    Maude says:

    @Ash Can:
    They are from Outta Da Woodwork. Not US.

  207. 207

    @Bnut: That’s the thing — Democrats since LBJ’s time have often felt the need to compensate for a perceived “softness” by authorizing, tacitly or otherwise, the killing of civilians. This effort by McCain et al is all about trying to cow Obama into trashing the Constitution just to avoid letting the Republicans “look tougher”. Which is why Gen. Eaton’s comments spanking McCain are so important.

  208. 208
    Tonal Crow says:

    I guess King is an American citizen (though he has yet to produce the vault-copy of his birth certificate), but still, can’t we deport him just to be sure? You know what I mean? Also? Too?

  209. 209
    scudbucket says:

    How does a Prius make it an inside job and how does this help the left to take our guns away? I’m all for the second amendment but I see no connection.

    What? You don’t see the connection? The terrorist job was obviously a plant, intended to distract everyone. First, there’s the financial ‘regulation’ that bails out the Wall Street capitalists. And then there’s the global warming hoax, perpetrated by a lefty elitist cabal led by Fat Al Gore all emailing and tweeting each other all the time. Goldman didn’t do anything wrong!! Don’t you get it?? I mean, brown people are crawling out of the sewers! They’re drinking my water! What part of ‘illegal’ don’t you understand?? Just because you’re born in this country, it doesn’t make you a citizen – you still need an American soul! And Obama clearly sabotaged that well in the gulf to prevent future oil spills drilling – Rush said Coast Guard boats were near it only hours, or days, before it blew! And everyone knows that deep down, all Teh Liebruls really want is to take away our guns, our warm, happy guns. Furthermore, no Real American, or a terrorist for that matter, would trade horsepower for fuel efficiency. Only liberals, like Obama, drive Hybrids!! So, Hybrid = proof they want to take our guns away. QED

  210. 210
    kay says:

    Do people really think McCain is strategizing?

    I always got the impression he just throws a blizzard of garbled stuff out there.

    You-all think there’s a big plan here?

    Miranda, immigrants, whatever. He’s opposed. Today.

    What’s his issue anyway? It isn’t immigration and it isn’t climate change and it isn’t campaign finance reform. He’s really too old to adopt “overturning Miranda” as a cause.

    Maybe something will turn up tomorrow that makes him mad, who knows? Could be anything at all.

  211. 211
    Corner Stone says:

    @Lauren:

    Honestly, I feel like what he said is right, simply because it would be good for us to find out all the information possible, however, he needs to take into consideration that he is in a place of public watch, especially as a politician, he needs to be extremely careful with the words he chooses to use.

    ***SPUTTER***

  212. 212
    stuckinred says:

    @Phoenix Woman: I come here to stay away from FDL.

    raven

  213. 213
    Corner Stone says:

    @Johannah S:

    I believe that when the American citizen plotted to terrorize our country, he disregarded his citizenship. When he chose to bring about terror on our nation, he was forgoing his rights, and therefore should have been taken as a terrorist.

    Has to be a spoof. Has to be.

  214. 214
    Corner Stone says:

    @Some immigrant guy:

    but why bother with it all if one half of the political establishment doesn’t give a damn about your status.

    One half of the political establishment doesn’t give a damn what half the citizens of this country believe.

  215. 215
    Poopyman says:

    @kay:
    Totally agree. No filter between lizard brain and mouth. Correction: The one filter in place is “Is what I’m saying going to advance John McCain?” And at this point that advancement will come before absolutely anything.

    What a dick.

  216. 216
    Corner Stone says:

    @West of the Cascades:

    Once you tell someone they have the right to remain silent, they usually fucking do so

    Just to chime in here – guy I grew up next to is now a seargent in the local constabulary. He laughs it up all the time when they bring in DUI’s. They sit them in the chair, turn on the video recorder, read them their rights, smile a little and wait.
    Almost all of them, not all but dang near, defiantly explain to you why you’re wrong that they’ve been drinking and driving. Loudly, at length, and in drunken detail they will tell you everything they can think of. In front of a camera and witness.

  217. 217
    bemused says:

    @IndieTarheel:
    Oh for pete’s sake. How could any tv anchor say that with a straight face? What a monumental boob.

  218. 218
    Bill Murray says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: voting and jury duty etc. are part of the privileges and immunities of citizenship, not rights. Rights are endowed to us through our humanity and are inalienable.

  219. 219
    Poopyman says:

    Oh for pete’s sake. How could any tv anchor say that with a straight face? What a monumental boob.

    I assume that was a rhetorical question?

  220. 220
    Bill Murray says:

    @catclub: except that the non-Mirandized statements may destroy the probable cause for warrants issued under the Fourth Amendment, tainting any evidence recovered under these warrants

  221. 221
  222. 222
  223. 223
    Master Mahan says:

    Funny how I don’t remember anyone saying the Times Square Bomber shouldn’t be treated as a citizen before we knew what color he was.

  224. 224
    Joseph Nobles says:

    Miranda rights are not read for the protection of the accused per se. The accused has rights with or without the Miranda warning. By informing the accused of their rights and then getting a waiver from the accused on those rights, law enforcement can then use any evidence gathered from the cooperation of the accused in a prosecution.

    In other words, reading the warning is for the protection of law enforcement. People who attack the Miranda warning in terrorism cases are willing to sacrifice the pillars of our justice system to gain some political advantage. I repeat: with Congress critters like these, Al Qaeda can keep on skimping on the good fertilizer.

  225. 225
    Corner Stone says:

    @Master Mahan: We were all too busy uncovering the anti-aircraft batterys and looking skyward for the inevitable invasion.

    Oh, and FYWP and FY GD Wal-Mart Gift Card Ad.

  226. 226
    Robert Waldmann says:

    It makes no difference the guy is an American citizen. Non citizens have the same rights under the 5th and 6th amendments as citizens. I quote our constitution

    V No person shall be … compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,
    and
    VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right … to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

    Which word in “no person” does King not understand ? Again and again the enemies of the US Constitution claim if we obeyed the constitution we would grant the rights of US citizens to this or that non citizen suspect (they call suspects “terrorists”). Those are not the rights of US citizens, those are the rights of persons and of defendants of any nationality as established by the US Constitution.

    Do you think rep. King has ever read the document ? If he has, he has forgotten it, but I suspect he hasn’t.

  227. 227

    Rights are endowed to us through our humanity and are inalienable.

    LOLwut?

  228. 228

    […] man from prison; unHappy Mothers Day; look, it’s called the 5th Amendment and it applies to all Americans; Baseball players against racial profiling; Audit the Fed!; and two amusing items, I Shot the Serif […]

  229. 229
    DPirate says:

    This representative is an idiot. More is the pity that he likely has a law degree. You don’t acquire rights from being read your Miranda warning. It is just a warning meant to inform you, since you are of course an ignorant fool, that you actually already do have some rights. In the real world, from a serious person, this quote would mean that the guy could possibly get off if they did not read the Miranda warning upon arrest, but he apparently lives in some fantasy world, which unfortunately is becoming reality as we type.

  230. 230

    […] Not All Americans Are Equal — More principled consistency from conservative America. Yet you think you’re the good guys? […]

  231. 231
    Mike 71 says:

    Not only was Faisel Shahzad “Mirandized,” but he spilled his guts implicating himself and the several confederates who trained him and have since been arrested by the Pakistani authorities. Had McCain’s idiotic suggestions been followed, none of this evidence would be available and Faisel and his confederates could have walked free.

    Back in 2000, there was a John McCain who ran for President whom I respected and admired. After that election he disappeared and has been missing ever since! Rumor has it that he defected to the Taliban and is now living in North Waziristan!

  232. 232
    Flaime says:

    You want to know what really skewed all of this for me??? Tea Party shrill and agitator Glenn Beck, in the Times article that originally carried most of these answers, said “He’s an American citizen. We have to give him his rights.” Who the hell would have expected that from Glenn Beck?

  233. 233
    henqiguai says:

    @Bnut(#204): Yeah, this thread is long dead, but this comment always annoys me; shows a certain lack of thought or attention to the circumstances —

    Not being a wet blanket, but how is this different than Obama giving the green light to kill American citizens in AfPak with predator drones?

    Um, ’cause they’re actively participating in military actions against the United States, in a foreign land, that is currently being militarily invested (that the correct term ?) by the US military with the full knowledge and backing of the US government. Work with me, here. If you are swinging at me with a bat, even if you’re a blood relative, don’t I have not just the right but the obligation to stop you with whatever means I can bring to bear (including pounding your derriere into the dirt; with hands, feet, chair…) ? Don’t see any difference between the two.

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