I have no idea if employers really think this way, but this made me sad:
“I’ve had veterans tell me they leave their military status off their resume, for fear of the stigma of the invisible wounds of war,” she said at a press conference Tuesday. “How can these heroes … who know how to lead be struggling so much to find work after they come home?”
The newest unemployment data shows that Iraq and Afghanistan veterans are still bearing the brunt of the latest economic downturn, finding fewer jobs than their civilian counterparts.
Among all recently separated veterans the unemployment rate now stands at 14.7 percent, well above the national unemployment rate of 9.7. Among veterans under 24 the situation is even worse; Labor officials estimate that more than one in five could not find work last year.
Update. Better news from the comments:
On a happier note, I am thrilled to say that the influx of veterans we’ve had on campus since the implementation of the Post-9/11 GI Bill has been a wonderful and positive thing for every aspect of the campus. The faculty looooooooove them because they are, in general, smart and disciplined and excellent examples to other students. The staff and administration love them because we never have to badger them to get things done on time. The student life people love them because they are excellent examples to the other, younger students. The business office loves them because their bills get paid, on time and with a minimum of hassle.
Xboxershorts
And killing themselves approximately 18 times a day.
We are a sad and foolish people to send our men and women off to war only to abandon them on their return.
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0423/18-veterans-suicide-day/
cyntax
Wait, putting a yellow ribbon bumpersticker on my luxury SUV 8 years ago wasn’t enough?
Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
But, but, the invisible hand of the free market!
stuckinred
Over six years ago in his book, “Late Thoughts on an Old War”, Phil Bielder wrote about the vets of the current “wars”,
“Don’t come home expecting anybody to remotely care”.
A prophet indeed.
Mnemosyne
I’m guessing part of the reluctance is knowing that someone who’s in the Reserves or the National Guard can be sent overseas for years at a time but (in many states) can’t be legally replaced.
Of course, the answer is to not send National Guard troops overseas, but no one’s going to endorse that crazy idea.
Zam
OT but I am anxious to see how the media covers this rally in Arizona. I doubt it will have half the coverage of a teabag rally.
geg6
On a happier note, I am thrilled to say that the influx of veterans we’ve had on campus since the implementation of the Post-9/11 GI Bill has been a wonderful and positive thing for every aspect of the campus. The faculty looooooooove them because they are, in general, smart and disciplined and excellent examples to other students. The staff and administration love them because we never have to badger them to get things done on time. The student life people love them because they are excellent examples to the other, younger students. The business office loves them because their bills get paid, on time and with a minimum of hassle.
Of the students we’ve had come in this year under Chapter 33, only one has had any behavioral difficulties at all. And this was simply because he still hadn’t been approved for VA disability services for his PTSD. But he never became violent or anything. He just had a hard time coping with stress and the company of normal, every day college students and needed more services than our campus personal counselor could provide. He decided on his own to withdraw until he had gotten treatment.
Any employers who are fearful of hiring these wonderful people are doing themselves and their businesses a disservice and don’t deserve to have an ounce of success. These are the best employees they could hope for, as they are the best students we could ever hope for.
stuckinred
@geg6: You beat me to it! It’s a great opportunity, especially in an economic downturn. Of course McCain was against it until it passed and he took credit for it.
beltane
This is somewhat analogous to the plight of WWI veterans during the Great Depression. Not as horrible, thanks to the efforts of various Democratic administrations, but still a tragedy nonetheless.
Nannergrrl
Well, the breakdown on the unemployment numbers of vets needs to be done with respect to branch of service, time in service, and rank at discharge.
I would guess that the unemployment numbers for officers would be lower than the general (non-serving) population and enlisted #s are higher – especially among those who served their 4 years and then out. By and large, many of these people are trained in areas of expertise that have no real counterpart in the private sector. Obviously, someone who served as a corpsman or worked with electronics will have an easier time of it, but otherwise…
I think there is also the oft-times unacknowledged reality that there are many people who go into the military at 18 who have no other real option for work/education. It sucks, but there it is.
jeffreyw
@stuckinred:
“Hey dude! Long time no see! Where ya been?”
“Viet Nam”
…
Oh? Hey, How about them Cardinals! See the game yesterday?
beltane
@Zam: In the eyes of the media, 100,000 Latinos < 100 teabaggers. That's how they do the math.
Brandon
I wonder on this case if veteran status is not just a proxy for education level? What’s the unemployment rate for HS graduates? What’s the unemployment rate for HS graduates with some vocational training and a couple years job experience? I imagine that if you look inside the numbers on vets, other variables are more likely driving the numbers than vet status. If you’re 21 years old with a HS diploma and 3 years infantry experience in the Army, I don’t know a particular job where that experience is helpful, particularly if they are competing with people who have HS degrees and spent the last three years gaining experience on a shop floor, as a journeyman/apprentice for a trade, gaining office experience or even working retail.
Tsulagi
@geg6:
I’d go with that.
Comrade E.B. Misfit
Same shit, different war.
{sigh}
Napoleon
Color me skeptical on this. In lieu of putting their military background on their resume they would then either have to 1) leave a hole and claim that you were unemployed for some reason, which seems to me to be a killer (even if a certain % of people may shy away from a vet a certain % would be drawn to it, while I think it is safe to say 100% would not like the hole) or 2) lie and make up an employer, which could kill you if someone checked.
geg6
@Brandon:
Which is exactly why the Post-9/11 GI Bill is so awesome. It’s not just for college, but for trade schools and apprenticeships, too.
Pays every penny of cost, with extra for tools or books and a housing allowance pegged to average housing cost in the nearest urban area. Here in Pittsburgh, that’s $1400+ a month. Will also pay for certification exams, if needed.
Wile E. Quixote
@Nannergrrl:
The same could be said about most college grads.
Dork
@Napoleon: my thoughts exactly. What exactly are these GI Joes putting on their resume for those 4 years or so they were enlisted?
anna missed
I’m sure this is all true, I’m a Vietnam vet and there were many times that if I mentioned this in a job interview, the interviewer would suddenly look away to the side or down or any which way that broke whatever eye contact we had established – or in other words it was always a deal breaker. And it didn’t end there, and the whole thing is best encapsulated in the words of a young lady that I had a very special interest in, that upon hearing the VV thing, paused mid sentence, and looked up inquisitively and said “I didn’t know that, now I don’t know whether to feel sorry for you, or be afraid of you”
And that pretty much summed up the whole post war experience for me, and how society looks upon it in retrospect.
sacman701
Agree on the ex-military students. The ones I had when I taught were generally more attentive and confident than most of the other students, and as a result they asked good questions that helped the discussion.
Professor
@stuckinred: I was flabbergasted too when I heard Sen. McCain, on C-Span, say that GI 2 Bill was too generous for the returning soldiers and so he could not support it. He said that the Armed Services might not be able to retain them. How SAD for a POW who has sucked on the military teat all his life!
Steve
That’s odd. I would be thrilled to hire an Afghanistan or Iraq vet. How sad that the sentiment isn’t universal.
Linda Featheringill
My sympathy to the veterans.
My daughter draws a VERY MODEST disability check from the VA but can’t seem to get a job.
So yes, I am supporting her.
cyntax
@ anna missed
That sucks. In my experience, people have been better about it than that, so maybe society’s learned a little along the way. Though that doesn’t really make it up to you.
My buddies and I used to say that any day you didn’t step on landmine was a good day, and we were thinking that once you get out it’s nothing but no-landmine-days. Which is true but it’s a perspective that can be hard to hold on to, particularly with the kind of crap it sounds like you had to put up with. But good on you for hanging in.
catclub
We have a long tradition of ignoring or mistreating returning vets.
The WW2 GI bill was the exception, not the rule.
My understanding is that the most likely place that a vietnam vet would be looked down on was at the VFW post still dominated by WW2 vets. They considered the vietnam vets losers.
I cannot vouch for the truth of it, but it makes some sense.
The Moar You Know
@anna missed: I call TOTAL bullshit on this one. My dad was a Vietnam vet and has, from the day he mustered out in 1972, had people falling over themselves to hire him. And now that I am running a business, I equally am as excited to hire vets of any stripe, from any conflict; they’ll do what they’re told without causing huge loads of drama and bullshit, know how to work smart, and in general cause me FAR fewer problems than the civilians we hire.
geg6
@catclub:
My cousin Gary, a two-tour VV, would agree with you wholeheartedly. He had no trouble at all with employers. Nor with DFHs, for that matter.
flounder
Vets, the ones talked about here, are generally going have a high school education and are more likely to be a minority. The unemployment rate for people with a high school diploma is 15%. For blacks it is about 30%. Being a vet doesn’t have crap to do with this.
A healthy vet who is drug free can move to somewhere like West Texas or Wyoming and get a job as a roughneck in about 5 minutes. My wife treats PTSD vets in the VA, and from the general story I hear from her, the ones that aren’t getting jobs or treatment or whatever, are the 15% that aren’t willing to move out of whatever dead-end town they grew up in or show a much go-get-em, and are sitting around smoking weed and playing video games instead.
numbskull
@The Moar You Know: How can you call bullshit on someone else’s direct and personal experience? Please walk me through that. I mean, couldn’t I call bullshit on your follow-on comment about your personal experience of how you viewed your Dad’s employment history with equal validity? That is to say, none? Just because your Dad had no problems getting a job does not mean that that is true for every VV.
BombIranForChrist
A few points:
1. The simple fact of the matter is that combat leadership does not necessarily equal boardroom leadership. I know quite a few men (no women) who were leaders in combat and are now leaders in business, but they’re leaders in business because they know that particular business! You can’t just show up to a business and say, “I want to be a manager at your company because I used to lead troops!” You have to actually be, you know, competent in that particular business.
2. This article combines a correlational study with anecdotal evidence to create a picture more clear cut than it probably is. The article cites a study that says more veteran are unemployed and then couples this with an interview from a guy who claims that he heard questions of mental stability in several interviews. This is said along with veterans group citing a continued stigma of military service without providing any evidence to confirm it. This is not uncommon in articles like this: 1) Provide a correlational study, 2) followed by an anecdotal man on the street type interview that suggests causation and / or provides an explanation of causation without any actual proof outside the context of the anecdote.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the soldiers are not getting hired as often because they believe in a stigma that doesn’t actually exist. Maybe they feel discouraged before they even go to the interview. Maybe they are just flat out tired. Maybe they have an unrealistic perception of what skills they have (see Boardroom remark). Maybe there are many other factors that correlate with veteran that have nothing whatsoever to do with this so called “stigma”.
I would not be surprised if someone provided a stronger connection between a difference in unemployment levels with a stigma associated with military service, but this article ain’t it.
Don
I am not confident these are good statistical comparisons. The 9.7% rate is for the whole nation and all the generalities that implies. I strongly doubt that military enrollment is perfectly distributed across the nation. It seems intuitively likely to me that enrollment is higher in lower income and manufacturing areas that have been harder hit by the employment downturn. If they have returned to the depressed area they joined to escape then it’s obvious they’d have more difficulty than average finding work. Since those numbers are limited to Gulf-II vets then that means these are people who have left since 2003, meaning they are definitely returning to an economic situation worse than the one they left.
When you look at the BLS numbers for veterans on a whole they actually have better than average numbers. 8.6 and 9.8 in Mar 2009 & 2010, versus the same period in the non-vet population of 8.9 and 10.
The under 24 number has the same problem with potentially being apples to oranges. What’s the unemployment rate for the under 24 crowd in general? We can’t compare that 20% (1 in 5) number above to the general 9.7% rate and I don’t see a 18-24 breakout in the BLS numbers.
stuckinred
@The Moar You Know: If he had gotten out in 68 or 69 it would have been different. When I cam home the a GI Bill was shit, I was getting the same dollar amount as my old man got in 45. We fought like hell to get a decent GI bill back then. As far as his treatment, you make a big mistake “calling bullshit” on someone else. It’s like thew whole spitting thing, the only people that ever gave me shit were right wingers not some hippie in an airport. Draw your breaks brother.
stuckinred
@jeffreyw: Whatup sky soldier! I’m stuck in Georgia with the Braves.
Nicholas Beaudrot
The Vet unemployment rate really ought to compared to the HS grad or maybe “some college” unemployment rate, with some adjustment for race. I suspect it’s actually a bit under what you would predict based solely on education & race.
Bnut
Not trying to be devil’s advocate, but I know far too many Marines who stay in instead of leaving for college because they are scared of the real world, and not in the PTSD kind of way. In the perverse world we live in, these guys realize that in alot of ways they have it set. They get told where to live, where to eat, what to wear, etc. They have to make no life decisions other than those under combat. Now, some grow out of their childish ways and become great Marines, or get out later and become great civilians. But the ranks are littered with enlisted personnel who are happy to fuck barracks rats, eat at Logans Steakhouse every Friday night, then hit the strip clubs. Till they retire. And if they have to occasionally go shoot brown people to be able to live in their bubble, then so be it.
LongHairedWeirdo
Hm. Like to point out something that hits home for me.
People who’ve been in the military are a bit different than ordinary. They stand out, and not just in all the good ways (calling superiors “sir” or “ma’am,” clean-cut, more organized). They’re just a bit different. They’ve lived in a completely different culture.
People who’ve been in combat are a bit different too.
People who’ve been under ungodly stress are a bit different too.
Put those differences together, and they might make most people uneasy. It’s not a matter of like or dislike, necessary, just a sense that there’s something different about this person, and, again, not just military bearing or manners. And that’s probably a large part of why vets have a hard time getting hired, even assuming they’re otherwise uninjured. Even tolerant folks can’t always make allowances for something they can’t quite understand.
Which makes me think – if you could come up with a business plan to use military strengths, and recruit out of work vets, and could also help the vets get through the transition from “military person” to “mostly ordinary human”, you could probably make a boatload of money, and do a hell of a lot of good.
Mike in NC
When I left active duty eons ago and started to go on job interviews, I’d usually get laughed at if I said “Sir” to someone, and more often than not military service was looked down on as something for slackers, or little better than being on welfare. One manager scoffed and said, “This isn’t the military; we expect our people to work hard!”.
Moreover, being a reservist was usually seen as a liability since many companies didn’t like the idea of your being gone for two whole weeks of active duty each year. I went years without taking a vacation since they resented any extra time away from work.
RSR
I have to wonder if veterans aren’t just part of a less employed subset. More blue collar, perhaps less college or post-college education. Seems to me that people fitting into that category have higher unemployment regardless of any military service.
It’s certainly a shame if any veteran feels that their service is something they need to shun while looking for employment.
J. Michael Neal
@LongHairedWeirdo:
There’s more to it than this. People doing hiring, at least the first line that do the initial sorts of resumes and toss most of them out, don’t like *anything* that’s unusual about an applicant. Anything on there that they don’t immediately understand is a reason to reject the person. Their job is to say, “No,” and they’re very enthusiastic about it.
I’ve been told that what you want to do is to take phrases that are in the job description or needed qualifications sections of the posting, and edit your resume so that *those exact phrases* are included. Apparently, they often use software to scan for resumes that have those phrases in them, and never look at any of the others. It’s an insane way to sort, since the ability to cut and paste and rewrite your own sentences aren’t particularly rare skills among applicants, but that’s the level of conformity they want.
Sleeping Dog
“I’ve had veterans tell me they leave their military status off their resume, for fear of the stigma of the invisible wounds of war,” she said at a press conference Tuesday. “How can these heroes … who know how to lead be struggling so much to find work after they come home?”
One of the great fears that I have for these veterans is that a few years down the line they will be forgotten and abandoned by their countrymen. It will be said they have issues, that they suffer from expensive problems, they should suck it up and take care of themselves. It will be sad and awful, but it will happen.
snoopy
Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says “Son if it was up to me”
I go down to see the V.A. man
He said “Son don’t you understand”
anna missed
@the moar you know
Well, I’m not going to bother with the bullshit response other than to say many vets of that era have had lots of different responses to their service. Its shouldn’t come as any surprise that many Vietnam vets had undiagnosed PTSD. All but one of six members of my old unit (that I’ve had contact with) have been diagnosed, and now receive some % disability. One guy got diagnosed only a year ago, after going 35 years of a troubled life without it.
It’s not simply a matter of being shunned in some formal sense, but more like what @37LongHairedWeirdo says. If you take the large number of vets with some range of PTSD and couple it with societal stereotypes that build up around such behavior, it should be easy to see how a sort of vicious circle can develop that exacerbates bad behavior by inadvertently reinforcing it. There are pretty clear cut reasons why such a large portion of homeless vets are Vietnam vets.
Glad your dad was lucky enough to have avoided all this.
And no, I’ve not been diagnosed myself.
Ranger 3
You get treated with respect in the military, generally. And you don’t just get thrown out because you piss off your boss. It’s a bit of a shock to come home and realize that one bad day can get you fired.
Soldiers typically aren’t used to taking alot of shit, which can make them “bad employees” to people who like to be able to bully their subordinates.
Of course, there are fuck ups in the Army. Just like everywhere else. But often you’re getting people who at a minimum aren’t completely useless and have been through hell on behalf of their country for not that much compensation.
Another point to address is the myth that the military is a dumping ground for uneducated minorities. That may have been true in 1968, it stopped being true years ago. The modern military is very much representative of our society along racial lines. I’d say the biggest difference between the military and society in general is that white liberals are much more scarce in uniform than in society, but that has more to do with ideology rather than race or class.
Some people think we’re crazy and/or savage babykillers. But mostly people who are put off by us or just uncomfortable with the fact that we don’t play their rules anymore. No way is some civilian jerk off going to treat me in anything other than a dignified manner. But we currently live in a society where people are routinely treated like dirt by their employers. So there you go.
The new GI Bill rocks, however. Thanks, hippies. Seriously, I really appreciate it. Now go and take a bath.
mclaren
Only 23% of veterans make use of college benefits, probably because they’ve been so psychologically damaged by being put in inhuman stress through multiple forced stop-loss rotations in third-world hellholes.
Research conducted by RAND has shown that 25 to 30 percent of Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have reported symptoms of a mental disorder or cognitive impairment. Post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is the most common, and traumatic brain injury may be a causal factor in some reported symptoms.”
Also see the retuers article Mental Illness Common in Returning U.S. Soldiers.
At the same time, the Pentagon has ordered the VA to drastically cut its inpatient treament programs in order to save money for more important military programs, like airborne laser systems that don’t work and an F-35 joint strike fighter that even the air force no longer wants or needs:
“The 63 percent decrease in VA inpatient programs from 1994 to 1997 is the most remarkable change attributable to decentralization and the mandate to convert from hospital-based to outpatient-based services. Most of the inpatient programs that survived were focused on treating substance abuse patients who had comorbid psychiatric conditions.”
“Due to the closure of inpatient programs, inpatient beds decreased from 5,920 in 1994 to 2,960 in 1997, a 50 percent decrease.”
On top of that, Pentagon Continues to Use “Personality Disorder” Discharges to Cheat Veterans Out of Benefits.
23% of the homeless population are veterans.
As usual, “SUPPORT THE TROOPS” is a meaningless slogan.
DPirate
I love how because you go to Iraq and blindly follow orders you are automatically a hero who knows how to lead.
Ranger 3
@DPirate: Yep… all soldiers are brainwashed babykillers.
And Black people are gangbangers.
And gays caused AIDS.
And Jews are greedy.
Isn’t demonizing large groups of people with resentment politics fun!
DPirate
@anna missed: We are all taught that we can never understand the least part of the experience if we haven’t gone through it, and further taught that war vets are brutal(ized). So of course no one wants to discuss it, as they have nothing worth saying, a priori, and the vet is suspect just for having once given rein to his violent instincts.
@LongHairedWeirdo: Xe, minus the transition crap.
@anna missed: PTSD disability is entirely out of hand, much like FIREMAN PAY. All disability welfare is out of hand. No,I have no evidence. Pero, this guy is going on disability after 35 years? Did he decide his social security just isnt enough, or what?
@mclaren: I’d guess that this percentage of people who do not use their benefits is just representative of those who fucked off when everyone else was applying to college in high school and ended up in the military cause they hadn’t cared to better themselves in school. They didnt care then, they dont care now. Plenty of people like that in the world, happy enough with their lot and not motivated toward much of anything.
@Ranger 3: Demonizing who, exactly? I’m pointing out that not everyone who joins the service is a “hero who knows how to lead”, and to say so cheapens those who are and essentially makes heroics and leadership meaningless. You know, like the medals and assholes joke. Your response is kneejerk pc bullshit. Or do you also clap for the hero Timothy McVeigh, for example? Oswald, maybe?