Simple Question For Andrew McCarthy And Friends

When the government accuses someone of terrorism it means that the person is a terrorist. Right? The indictment sounds pretty clear: we captured a bunch of religious fundamentalist extremists planning mass casualty attacks against America. Unlike, say, Jose Padilla or any of the clown car gangs whom Bush rounded up this team had the gear and the training to go operational (and kill a lot of people) within a month.

Rightwing antiterror doctrine clearly states that we must strip these “terrorists” (no such thing as alleged in the war on terror) naked and hang them in cold cages by the wrists with their arms tied behind their backs so that the tendons tear and the shoulder joint dislocates. We should waterboard them until they confess and give up their co-conspirators (the Inquisition found waterboarding almost 100% effective!). Without question these people should be held without any trial or access to habeas corpus petitions until the “war” against violent fundamentalist groups is over. At the very least we should shunt these guys into military tribunals where the rules have been rigged to ensure a conviction.

Of course Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Reynolds and Crittenden and Erickson and any other credentialed rightblogger will agree with what I just said. They have to. Any conservative who disagrees with the above points in the slightest isn’t welcome in the clubhouse anymore. Ask James Joyner or Andrew Sullivan or Charles IcantfuckingbelieveImsayingthis Johnson. To deny their own doctrines and reveal themselves as flaming, tribalist hypocrites would be inconceivable.






237 replies
  1. 1
    Shalimar says:

    Democrat governments aren’t real governments, so it doesn’t matter what the evil commies say. Duh.

  2. 2
    Der Blindschtiller says:

    I’ve always said that the surest path to ending torture in this country is to apply it to white, god-fearing Americans.

  3. 3
    furioso ateo says:

    They would cry out against these techniques, but secretly they would be pleased.

    The militia movement can always use more martyrs to recruit.

  4. 4
    Zifnab says:

    Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there. Are these people white? Did any of them read Atlas Shrugged, or at least Glenn Beck’s latest? How many donated money to Jim DeMint and Jim Bunning in the last four years?

    These are important prosecutorial questions.

    (Actually, the last one would be really, really interesting to find out. I’d love to know who picked up campaign contributions from these wackos.)

  5. 5
    Sasha says:

    I’ve always said that the surest path to ending torture in this country is to apply it to white, god-fearing Americans.

    Or “white god”-fearing Americans (as opposed to that dusky Arab god those Muslims revere).

  6. 6
    r€nato says:

    Look for a smear campaign against Janet Napolitano in the near future.

  7. 7
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    Good grief, “Explosively Formed Projectiles”?

    I repeat:

    Red Dawn – you’re soaking in it.

  8. 8
    kid bitzer says:

    follow up question for andy mccarthy and friends:

    why do you hate america?

  9. 9
    Corner Stone says:

    terrorist == white xtian

    Terrorist = any brown person the govt says is one

    It’s well defined and peer reviewed Tim.

  10. 10
    r€nato says:

    Of course Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Reynolds and Crittenden and Erickson and any other credentialed rightblogger will agree with what I just said. They have to.

    I know you’re being snarky… but, no, they don’t. They’ll discover some kind of extenuating circumstance. Perhaps they are simply Americans who’ve been driven to radical action by Obamislamofascicommunism. Or they are just firearm collectors and this is the first step of Barack Saddam Hussein al-Qaeda Osama bin Laden’s master plan to seize everyone’s guns.

  11. 11
    GregB says:

    According to Rawstory, this group held a tea-party rally.

    What happens when you water-board a tea-bagger?

    Does it make for strong tea?

  12. 12
    Svensker says:

    It isn’t the same AT ALL. These white Christian guys may have gone a little over the line, but their motives and emotions were completely understandable. They were pushed by the Dem culture war and war on the constitution. Gays, abortion, not wearing flag pins, spending money on other Americans instead of blowing up Muslims — what right thinking American wouldn’t want to react violently?

    There is not a “war on Americans reacting to their evil government”. There is a War on Terrorists — and terrorists are Muslims.

    How you don’t get this is beyond me.

  13. 13
    r€nato says:

    Waterboarding is exactly like going for a swim. I’m assuming these militia terrorists are man enough to go for a swim, right?

  14. 14
    El Cid says:

    But they ain’t darkies and Moozlims. I don’t understand what you askin’.

  15. 15
    geg6 says:

    I feel sorry for the police in this country. We already had one of these kinds of nutcases ambushing and killing police right here. And now this. Not one iota different than any of the Islamist terrorist groups. Using IEDs at a funeral, a funeral of a cop they would have murdered. Unfuckingbelievable. Glad to see the charges are seditious conspiracy. Call ’em as you see ’em.

    And not hard to see why the other militias didn’t want anything to do with this. They only want to kill liberals and pro-choicers. Taking out cops is one step too far, I guess.

  16. 16
    Citizen_X says:

    These guys certainly are tough Jesus warriors:

    At one point in the indictment, Hutaree leader David Brian Stone and others are alleged to have planned to go to a militia “summit” in Kentucky for planning. But “weather conditions prevented them from reaching their destination.”

    What, did the sled dogs starve, or something? Did a storm blow them off course to Prospero’s island? What?

  17. 17
    Sloegin says:

    Don’t forget that torture also teaches us that witchcraft is real. (Since anything confessed by torture must be God’s truth)…
    Back later after I go dry up my neighbor’s cow.

  18. 18
    GambitRF says:

    Atlas Shrugs is proclaiming it “nuts” that they were arrested at all

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/201003290017

  19. 19
    Comrade Dread says:

    No, of course not. There’s a big difference.

    Terrorist: A man or woman with a foreign sounding name who hates the United States government and wants to destroy it. They deserve all of that above.

    Patriot: A white man or woman with a normal name who hates the United States government and wants to destroy it. They deserve to have songs sung about them.

  20. 20
    Facebones says:

    Remind me again how that DHS report on right wing groups being involved in terrorist activity was so alarmist and wrong and just plain insulting to the god-fearing militiamen of ‘murica.

  21. 21
    Crashman says:

    @Citizen_X: Please tell me that one or more of these losers was on Social Security or collecting unemployment…

  22. 22
    Martin says:

    @Citizen_X: Hey, when you’re gearing up to battle the Anti-Christ, you don’t train for snow, alright?

  23. 23
    Tom Hilton says:

    To deny their own doctrines and reveal themselves as flaming, tribalist hypocrites would be inconceivable.

    I do not think that word means what you think it means.

    (Okay, I know you know that…but I can’t believe nobody has already said it.)

  24. 24
    Martin says:

    Hey, since there’s a WMD charge against them, can we invade Michigan now?

  25. 25
    kay says:

    I think it’s the ticking time bomb scenario, and we have to torture the seven right now. There’s an 8th, and he’s a fugitive.

    Maybe he has the WMD.

  26. 26
    furioso ateo says:

    Terrorists are only the people that want to destroy America because of its freedoms.

    These guys want to destroy America to save its freedoms.

    Or something.

  27. 27
    Fair Economist says:

    I honestly can’t decide whether I think these guys should be hauled off to Gitmo and be tortured and held incommunicado for 5 years without access to counsel and with plans for a kangaroo court. Obviously it’s wrong for them but is there any other way to get the wingnuts to stand up for American values and the Constitution and demand fair trials? It’s one of those good-of-the-many/ good-of-the-few moral dilemmas like “would you kill a traincar of innocent people if the young Adolf Hitler were onboard?”

    Sadly the Obama administration seems to be adopting IOKIYAR. They’ll follow the law and the Constitution, but they have no problem with the Bush administration having broken it.

  28. 28
    morzer says:

    @GregB:

    *donning my glasses and standing by the chalkboard*

    Teabagger plus water = unusually clean redneck, with a small residue of piss and vinegar.

  29. 29
    Evinfuilt says:

    @GregB:
    I think we’ll have to use “homeopathic principals” on these guys. Dilute them till they’re nothing but water.

    Reality, i’m of a split mind on them. I want them to have the rights afforded to them by the Constitution, but at the same time, their government has taken said rights away for the past 8 years. I feel they need to lose their rights, so the nation can come back together and bring back Habeus Corpus and the Constitution. Water Boarding these tea-baggers may actually end torture in America.

  30. 30
    dmsilev says:

    @GambitRF: Well, she’s certainly an expert on ‘nuts’. Self-taught, as it were.

    -dms

  31. 31
    Jeanne says:

    Funny. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  32. 32
    aimai says:

    Citizen-X! Delicious comment. I’m going to totally use “prevented from getting to my destination” next time I can’t be bothered to go to some boring function. “I would have been present at the Revolution but I was prevented from getting to my destination.” “Aunt Marge, I would have brought the jello salad but I was prevented from getting to the Piggly Wiggly before it closed.”

    aimai

  33. 33
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    @Svensker:

    You know how this game is played. Nicely done.

  34. 34
    Ash Can says:

    Simple Question For Andrew McCarthy And Friends

    If I had a nickel for every excuse McCarthy and friends would manufacture in reply, I could play the slots 24/7 until the moon falls out of the sky.

  35. 35
    Tim F. says:

    @Evinfuilt: I am not of a split mind at all. I think that the Constitution and relevant treaties should apply to any person whom we detain, anywhere. I also think that criminal penalties should apply to officials who transgress those rules for any reason whatsoever.

    That, of course, is beside the point of this post.

  36. 36
    kay says:

    @Martin:

    WMD has lost a lot of credibility.

    I’ll take a “wait and see” attitude, this time, thank you very much, before we run off and occupy Ann Arbor.

  37. 37
    Evinfuilt says:

    Sadly the Obama administration seems to be adopting IOKIYAR. They’ll follow the law and the Constitution, but they have no problem with the Bush administration having broken it.

    @Fair Economist:

    This could be really bad. If they are treated properly, as the Constitution and Human Decency requires BUT the laws aren’t changed to provide the same rights to “scary brown people”, Obama is actually setting a poor precedent that will allow the next Republican Administration to be worst, and say “see, we wouldn’t harm our own citizens.”

  38. 38
    Gregory says:

    @furioso ateo:

    The militia movement can always use more martyrs to recruit.

    That’s a good point. It’s been a useful recruiting tool for America’s other enemies, the jihadis.

  39. 39
    4tehlulz says:

    That’s all well and good but some obscure leftist somewhere said something bad, so you’re evil. Also.

  40. 40
    burnspbesq says:

    Let’s use these fucks as a model for how we deal with terrorists. Give them a fair trial, and if they are convicted, throw them in jail.

    I wouldn’t send these white Christianist terrorists to the Supermax, though. Instead, send them to the maximum security prison in Marion, Illinois, which is full of Chicago gang and drug business types. See how good their survival skills really are.

  41. 41
    David in NY says:

    When it becomes more clear what exactly these guys did (did they have bombs or IED’s? were they just talking about such stuff? how close did that “attempt” come?), it will be interesting to compare their situation to those of many of the brown-people terrorists who have been prosecuted. In the latter cases, I have felt that the government, by the use of informants, lured impulsive or even unstable guys into activities that they would not have engaged in without prompting and that they came near actually attempting mainly due to government actions (though they became willing to do those things and were probably not “entrapped” in the legal sense). I was sort of hoping in this case that the defendants had at least obtained possession of an actual bomb of some type, but the indictment doesn’t seem to charge that possession, and the “attempt to use” count may just be an attempt to make, etc.

  42. 42
    Evinfuilt says:

    @Tim F.:
    But what if the torture and treatment of these idiots actually leads to the repealing of the unjust laws? That’s where I’m split.

    The best case scenario is they are treated properly (likely to occur) and the laws are overturned (unlikely.) Its a bad precedent, Obama will have provided more cover for the previous criminal administration.

  43. 43
  44. 44
    Martin says:

    @kay: You realize the good residents of Ann Arbor would greet us as liberators, showering us with candy and flowers.

  45. 45
    Violet says:

    @aimai:

    Citizen-X! Delicious comment. I’m going to totally use “prevented from getting to my destination” next time I can’t be bothered to go to some boring function. “I would have been present at the Revolution but I was prevented from getting to my destination.” “Aunt Marge, I would have brought the jello salad but I was prevented from getting to the Piggly Wiggly before it closed.”

    This. Except it’s ham salad, not jello salad. If you’re John Cole, anyway.

  46. 46
    stuckinred says:

    @Martin: Be the only slam dunk they’ve had in a while what with the demise of Big Blue Hoops!

  47. 47
    AhabTRuler says:

    WMD has lost a lot of credibility.

    But don’t you see, by this definition, Iraq did have the WMD.

    Hell, dry ice in a soda bottle is a WMD if we don’t like you.

  48. 48
    Fair Economist says:

    @Evinfuilt:

    This could be really bad. If they are treated properly, as the Constitution and Human Decency requires BUT the laws aren’t changed to provide the same rights to “scary brown people”, Obama is actually setting a poor precedent that will allow the next Republican Administration to be worst, and say “see, we wouldn’t harm our own citizens.”

    Yes, although part of the problem, and IMO the more nefarious part, is enforcement of existing law. The courts have been pretty good about requiring fair trials, RATS notwithstanding.

  49. 49
    David in NY says:

    can we invade Michigan now?

    Only if you promise to extend them a Marshall plan after you’ve won. They surely need it.*

    *h/t to “The Mouse That Roared”

  50. 50
    Ash Can says:

    @kay: Whoa, you’re absolutely right. Those crickets on the right are deafening, aren’t they?

  51. 51
    EconWatcher says:

    If wingers try to attack Obama on this one, it will be a huge mistake. They don’t want to alienate law-enforcement organizations (like the NRA did in shilling for “cop-killer’ bullets some years ago, to its later regret). I can’t imagine a better gift for the Dems.

    I think this suggests a larger point: The GOP is temporarily flirting with some really extreme elements. But extreme people tend to do extreme things. I don’t think this will end well for the opportunists.

  52. 52
    martha says:

    @furioso ateo: good morning (or should I say good evening?).

    I’m not sure they know what America’s freedoms really are…I think we need to see if they can even read (I’m sort of serious).

  53. 53
    David in NY says:

    @stuckinred:

    An IED is a bomb.

    Sorry, just can’t resist throwing acronyms around these days; it’s so manly.

  54. 54
    furioso ateo says:

    @burnspbesq: The sad part is that we already have plenty of models for dealing with terrorists. If we convict these assholes and throw them in jail, it’ll just be another succesful prosecution of terrorism in a long, succesful chain of them.

    I guess when you pray to Allah instead of Space Baby Jesus, the rules change.

  55. 55
    Der Blindschtiller says:

    So where’s all the breathless, wall-to-wall media coverage about this? A couple of months ago, some incompetent jackass burns his bean-bags off and the media played it as if we had just narrowly avoided Armageddon.

    Now it looks like a number of Americans came close to realizing a much more hideous plan, but there’s barely a peep. If we hear anything, it’s bound to be a defense of these assholes for standing up to “tyranny.”

  56. 56
    Dork says:

    Is the Anti-Christ anything like antibonding orbitals? Does he have a Pi-star medallion around his neck? Is he always positve, whereas all the militia members are so negative? Can we get some Schrodinger’s in here to clear this up?

  57. 57
    AhabTRuler says:

    Sorry, just can’t resist throwing acronyms around these days

    It’s a fucking disease in DC these days. And just you dare accuse someone of throwing around jargon, they’ll tear you off a treat, they will.

  58. 58
    stuckinred says:

    @David in NY: NP, just wasn’t sure. We called em mines and booby traps.

  59. 59
  60. 60
    Tsulagi says:

    …will agree with everything that I just said. They have to.

    Tim, Tim, Tim, when will you commieliberals ever learn? You don’t see the big picture.

    For instance, recently a frontpager on RedState put it simply. His post was about the nuclear nuclear option, deem and pass. This is almost verbatim: “Okay, yeah, in 2005 the last year we controlled Congress we used deem and pass 35 times. Big deal. The difference is we used it for good, the Ds want to use it for bad.”

    It’s clear. Everything good is solely concentrated on the right. That’s why Jesus loves them, and why one RS post said Jesus would approve waterboarding.

    Everything bad and evil is concentrated on the left. Therefore, anything done by the left is by definition rooted in evil. So even if you use the same tactics as the right, it is bad. It’s simple math.

    You think it an accident or coincidence Jesus was right handed and Obama favors his left? I think not. It’s all clear as day.

  61. 61
    ajr22 says:

    No you see torture is only ok if it’s an enemy combatant. See the law doesn’t apply to brown people who we call enemies. If we could torture anyone, then when you asked “so can others torture American’s?” the answer would have to be yes. Instead we get to say of course not, Americans are protected by the law and the geneva convention. See we have figured out the perfect system to accuse any brown person who attacks us of being an enemy combatant, because they are not gonna attack us in America while dressed in a uniform. The strategy is flawless, so stop questioning it.

  62. 62
    JackieBinAZ says:

    terroristDiscouraged American who has a good point == white xtian
    Terrorist = any brown person the govt says is one

  63. 63
    maus says:

    @Shalimar:

    Democrat governments aren’t real governments, so it doesn’t matter what the evil commies say. Duh.

    Well yeah, obviously Obama is a MOOSLEM agent of the ZOG, right?

  64. 64
    Peter J says:

    I wonder, waterboarding not being torture and also being a useful and right way to interrogate terrorists and get the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, out of them, exactly how long would we need to waterboard them until they confess that Palin and Limbaugh funded them and that they were acting on their orders?

    Because it would be irresponsible not to speculate.

  65. 65
    furioso ateo says:

    @martha: It’s evening time over here.

    Generally I don’t consider these guys to be dumb. I’ve known a couple people that make perfect Black Helicopter material. They were generally pretty bright guys, but they tended to be a little off, and had obsessions with weird things. They tend to focus and think furiously on these things, and the problem is they kind of started with the wrong premise, and so they reach abnormal conclusions.

  66. 66
    David in NY says:

    @stuckinred: It’s OK, even simple redundancy deserves a red pencil (or the modern equivalent).

  67. 67
    maus says:

    @Tsulagi:

    It’s clear. Everything good is solely concentrated on the right. That’s why Jesus loves them, and why one RS post said Jesus would approve waterboarding.

    Predestination, it works for being a nouveau riche shithead AND politics.

  68. 68
    kay says:

    @Ash Can:

    That WMD could go off at any moment. Every police officer in the country is in clear and present danger, according to the Great Minds on the Right. I just saw one. I’m shocked he can still hold it together enough to pilot a patrol car.

    Where’s the “expert” panel of terror fantasists that we rely on to direct us in these moments of fear and need?

    Where is Liz Cheney?

  69. 69
    The Moar You Know says:

    We will be crushing their children’s testicles, right? Cause John Yoo said that was just fine and dandy.

    The silence of the outrage. Not one peep out of the torture apologists or the Mandatory Muslim Execution crew. Hmmmm. Maybe the internet is broken. Maybe they all have laryngitis. Very odd.

  70. 70
    Corner Stone says:

    @JackieBinAZ: Forgive me, but I don’t understand your fixt.

  71. 71
    pharniel says:

    @Martin:
    ONly if you come bearing weed and redheads.

  72. 72
    Nylund says:

    As much as I hate Malkin and Coulter, I think they might have the decency to admit that their policies of torture only apply to Arabs/Muslims – that their belief of what is morally right and wrong depends solely on the race/religion of the victim. Its pure bigotry in the most disgusting of ways (as evident by Coulter telling the Muslim student to “ride a camel” and Michelle’s plea that all muslims be put in internment camps), but at least I think they might have the balls to admit they are bigots in this one regard and that their bigotry defines their moral code when it comes to basic human rights.

  73. 73
    Corner Stone says:

    @Evinfuilt:

    But what if the torture and treatment of these idiots actually leads to the repealing of the unjust laws? That’s where I’m split.

    It pains me to say this but…lolwhut??
    I hope you are satirizing some extreme position.

  74. 74
    mclaren says:

    It gets worse. Based on Dick Cheney’s “one percent” doctrine, if there’s even a one percent chance that any of those fundamentalist baptist preachers praying for the death of Obama were to pose a threat, into the steel cages at Gitmo with the priests. Into the torture chambers with Glenn Beck, with O’Reilly, with all those who have aided and abetted the far-right terrorists. Waterboard ’em until they give up their accomplices. The Republicans have said it repeatedly: to aid and abet a terrorist is to become a terrorist. So descend on Fox News with the DHS and haul ’em all out to Gitmo. Laura Ingraham? Leg irons and waist shackles. Rushbo? Sensory deprivation goggles and a black hood.

    By their own logic, it’s unavoidable.

  75. 75
    JD Rhoades says:

    That attack, in turn, would spark a more widespread Harper’s Ferry-style uprising against the government, according to the “general concept of operations” described in the indictment.

    ‘Cause Harper’s Ferry turned out so very well for John Brown and his bunch.

  76. 76
    gwangung says:

    As much as I hate Malkin and Coulter, I think they might have the decency to admit that their policies of torture only apply to Arabs/Muslims –

    Oh, you makes the funny.

  77. 77
    martha says:

    @furioso ateo: I figured as much…and thank you for your service BTW. I’ve read alot about that part of the world, mainly history and archeology…but that’s not really what you’re facing, I think.

    It’s always interesting to me how some people can fixate on one thing to the exclusion of everything else. That, of course, is what causes “problems” (a loaded word if there ever was one).

  78. 78
    kay says:

    @Nylund:

    Hah! They never, ever will admit that.

    No, I’m left to consider the difference in the potential victims of this planned terrorist attack, who were police officers.

    I can only conclude conservatives don’t give a rat’s ass about police officers. What else can I do? Nothing else even remotely hangs together. Shoot, it says “WMD” in the indictment. The based a WAR on that, once upon a time.

  79. 79
    Keith G says:

    Pretend soldiers can by really nasty business, no matter whose side they are on.

    Since its a beautiful spring day, I would rather think about something happy. How about the faces of our real soldiers they greet our president. Made me smile with goose bumps

    http://www.nytimes.com/slidesh.....AMA_7.html

  80. 80
    JackieBinAZ says:

    @Sloegin: This isn’t too far from the truth – when a society doesn’t have a real witchcraft culture as part of the power balance, “enemies of the state” are a potent substitute. Like witches, they are so powerful, devious and cunning that it takes a special oracle (torture) to uncover what they really are.

  81. 81
    Der Blindschtiller says:

    Oops…

    Well, no sooner did I write this than it became the main headline on MSNBC. In my defense, I hadn’t seen anything in the previous two hours.

  82. 82
    Jamie says:

    I don’t think that word means what you think it says.

  83. 83
    stuckinred says:

    @kay: They didn’t care about the 2 Vietnam tours vet that was killed in the Austin IRS attack. Course he was a brother.

  84. 84
    kay says:

    @Der Blindschtiller:

    I think they were waiting for charges, so good for them.

    It’s BIG local news. Adrian is not far from here. Everyone here is talking about it, although, I have to say, there’s not a lot of shocked disbelief.

  85. 85
    JackieBinAZ says:

    @Corner Stone: That when white Americans are upset, they always have a legitimate point. Doesn’t everyone know that? It’s right there in the Bible and that’s why the founders put it in the Constitution.

  86. 86
    Martin says:

    @kay: Conservatives don’t care about the jackbooted thugs that Obama is sending to illegally confiscate their guns as part of his soçialist totalitarian health care regime.

  87. 87
    stuckinred says:

    @Keith G: Be interesting to see how the troops might have reacted if he choppered into a hot lz!

  88. 88
    trollhattan says:

    There are times I wished Patty Hearst had a blog and this is one of them. How are these humps any different from the SLA or the Manson Family? (Other than the whole all-talkie-no-actie thing.)

  89. 89
    furioso ateo says:

    @kay: Well, the Police aren’t Real Americans. Todays Police Officer will tomorrow be Obama’s Jack-Booted Fascist Enforcer.

    And truth be told, I’m no big fan of the Police myself. And before anyone says it, I don’t mean the band.

  90. 90
  91. 91
    kay says:

    @stuckinred:

    I’m just trying to offer them a logical out, but I’m stumped.

    You got your terrorist plan, and 8 of 9 terrorists in custody, and WMD is in the mix. I think we’re looking at ticking time bomb, although I have never seen a single episode of “24” so I’m admittedly not a terrorism expert.

    Gotta find the 9th and foil the plot! To the waterboard.

  92. 92
    furioso ateo says:

    @stuckinred: Bagram had a rocket attack later that same night. Not too far from where the President spoke.

    Bagram isn’t a hot LZ, but there is no Paris or Saigon in this war.

  93. 93
    kay says:

    @furioso ateo:

    Maybe they’ll have a sort of “soldiers on the battlefield” exception. We don’t have to torture because police are like soldiers, and not technically civilians. Like that.

    They’re great legal minds. I know this because they say so constantly. They’ll come up with one or another distinction.

  94. 94
    Der Blindschtiller says:

    @furioso ateo

    You have to admit though; Sting has become kind of a douche.

  95. 95
    furioso ateo says:

    @Der Blindschtiller: “Roxanne” is still one of the best drinking games/songs though.

  96. 96
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith G:

    Since its a beautiful spring day

    Just a fantastic couple last days in H-Town.

  97. 97
    Brandon says:

    Let’s see if we can get this sorted.

    Religious fundamentalists bent on the destruction of the United States and her freedoms? Check.

    Terrorist cell plotting attacks against national security targets in the U.S? Check.

    Operating a terrorist training camp to recruit and train other would be terrorists in paramilitary tactics? Check.

    The real question is why this was treated as a “law enforcement” issue in the first place. The fact that they got a search warrant, provided these terrorist Constitutional protections, including Miranda, and are bringing them to trial in civilian courts just further shows the Obama administrations weakness against terrorism. Particularly religious fundamentalist terrorist organizations. And god have mercy on any defense attorney that would dare defend these terrorists against his own country. They should be properly labelled as traitors.

    If Obama was serious about terror, he should have rounded this cell up using the military on U.S. soil without a warrant and held them in detention in a military brig incommunicado, in complete isolation with blacked out goggles covering their eyes and muffs on the ears, for a decade without contact with the outside world, morseso an attorney.

    This detention should have been coupled with “enhanced interrogation” techniques such as water boarding, extreme hot/cold, stress positions, and even administration of psychotropic drugs. And all of this should be followed by a military tribunal.

    Obama just doesn’t get it. He’s making us less safe by the day.

  98. 98
    Corner Stone says:

    @JackieBinAZ: I thought that was where you were going but was not sure.
    not worth explaining my confusion further.

  99. 99
    Rudi says:

    These nutcases are warriors for Jesus, not that false god allah. The teabaggers probably have a man crush on the group…

  100. 100
    stuckinred says:

    @kay: Let’s go old school with a field phone and a couple of wires.

  101. 101
    Corner Stone says:

    @kay:

    although I have never seen a single episode of “24” so I’m admittedly not a terrorism expert.

    This may be the understatement of the year. If you, in fact, have NEVER SEEN 1 EP of 24 then what in the absolute bloody heck are you doing commenting on matters of potential terrorism?
    Obviously you do not take the subject matter seriously enough to do any valid research.

  102. 102
    mcc says:

    To be clear, “WMD” in this indictment refers to IEDs.

    A pretty good sign that our legal definition of “WMD” is broad beyond any sort of reason. I wonder if this will make the Republicans realize this such that they’ll support restricting the definition of WMD to something more sensible now.

    Aww who am I kidding. We all know the Republicans will spend the next five years pretending this didn’t happen.

  103. 103
    LD50 says:

    @Crashman:

    Please tell me that one or more of these losers was on Social Security or collecting unemployment…

    Rural Michigan/Ohio? I’d guess that most of them were.

    Besides, people with actual jobs tend not to have the *time* to join terrorist groups.

  104. 104
    kay says:

    @mcc:

    There’s a lot of gossip here locally. We’ve settled on calling them “pipe bombs”, although there was some discussion and a couple of dissenters.

  105. 105
    Allan says:

    You forgot crushing their children’s testicles in front of them to make them talk.

    That’s my favorite part.

  106. 106
    kay says:

    @LD50:

    They should be able to track down that straggler through child support enforcement.
    They’re probably better than the FBI.

  107. 107
    The Moar You Know says:

    WMD’s, eh? We dropped the leader off a sovereign nation off a scaffold with a rope around his neck for not having any.

    Can’t wait to see what we’re going to do to religious terrorists who do have some.

    Oh, that’s right. I forgot, these folks worship the acceptable version of the invisible daddy in the sky.

    Probably a trial, appeals, another trial, more appeals, a light sentence followed by an immediate pardon from the first Republican that can get the presidency out of the steely grip of Obama’s Chicago mafia, cause we love our cop killers when they’re killing cops for Jesus.

  108. 108
    The Populist says:

    Were the local GOP politicians at the jailhouse giving these guys a standing O?

  109. 109
    David Hunt says:

    @Fair Economist:

    I honestly can’t decide whether I think these guys should be hauled off to Gitmo and be tortured and held incommunicado for 5 years without access to counsel and with plans for a kangaroo court. Obviously it’s wrong for them but is there any other way to get the wingnuts to stand up for American values and the Constitution and demand fair trials?

    Technically, the answer to that is “no,” but only because the hauling those guys off to Gitmo will not get the wingnuts to advocate civil rights for anyone outside of their tribe. Us and Them are at the core of their psychology.

  110. 110
    jeffreyw says:

    @LD50: I’m retired, but with my days filled with cooking and blogging about cooking and dogs and pets I just don’t have time any revolutions in the near future. And now there’s this Tumblr thing to keep me occupied further.

  111. 111
    stuckinred says:

    @kay: They fooled around with the definition in an attempt to justify their trumped up war. Anything other than a weapon that fires a single round, that can kill more than one person, is a weapon of “mass” destruction.

  112. 112
    The Populist says:

    @Brandon:

    But Brandon, you don’t get it! They are DEFENDING the constitution by attacking the evil police men that take away all freedoms in this country.

    (snark)

  113. 113
    The Populist says:

    @David Hunt:

    We should treat these idiots with the full rights they deserve under the constitution. They want to be martyrs for their cause. Unlike the GOP, we have an evolved sense of what the founding fathers WANTED when it came to fair treatment under the law.

  114. 114
    "Fair and Balanced" Dave says:

    There are times I wished Patty Hearst had a blog and this is one of them. How are these humps any different from the SLA or the Manson Family? (Other than the whole all-talkie-no-actie thing.)

    AFAIK, no Hutaree leader has claimed to be the 5th Beatle.

  115. 115
    The Populist says:

    Interesting how the concern trolls never come here to discuss anything when we get proven right once again.

    It’s so unfortunate they can’t come in and defend their positions now. They can’t, so I guess they don’t due to the cowards gene that races through the majority of modern day GOP supporters.

  116. 116
    The Populist says:

    @“Fair and Balanced” Dave:

    These idiots are fighting for freedom! The hippies were enemies of freedom, that is why!

  117. 117
    Martin says:

    Sort of a tangential point here – the guy who threatened Cantor has been arrested, but none of the people that threatened how many other members of Congress? What am I missing here?

  118. 118
    mcc says:

    Incidentally, checking redstate, I do not find anything about the militia arrests. Buncha stories about the “flat tax” today. Although they did find time to write a longish post about this guy arrested for making threats against Eric Cantor on YouTube:

    When he was visited by federal agents on Saturday, he “stated that he is the “son of the god of Enoch” and that his father speaks through him.

    Redstate goes on to demand Josh Marshall of TPM apologize for poking apart the holes in Cantor’s bullet story last week, and says “by the left’s logic” Marshall was inciting violence against Cantor.

  119. 119
    stuckinred says:

    And it’s only a matter of time till this punk gets his

    Freedom Concerts, Sean Hannity’s scholarship charity for the children of fallen soldiers, has violated its charitable tax status, according to a Washington advocacy group.

    Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington alleges that Hannity’s Freedom Concerts has “engaged in deceptive and illegal marketing practices by suggesting that all concert ticket sale revenue goes directly to scholarships for children of killed and wounded service members.”

  120. 120
    JGabriel says:

    TPM:

    __At one point in the indictment, Hutaree leader David Brian Stone and others are alleged to have planned to go to a militia “summit” in Kentucky for planning. But “weather conditions prevented them from reaching their destination.”

    Thank the FSM that these guys were, apparently, less physically committed to their cause than the postman. (Neither snow nor rain…)

    .

  121. 121
    The Populist says:

    @mcc:

    Well maybe they need to question the a-holes that find it perfectly okay to attack police officers? Now there are good and there are bad officers in our society. Regardless, these guys have a tough job and I salute the majority of them for protecting us.

    A-holes like the Red State love talking about officers and how we should show them respect YET where are they when idiots like these terrorists plan attacks on them? Oh yes, for Erick and his gang of retards it’s all about attacking anything democratic to serve their propaganda needs.

  122. 122
    The Populist says:

    @stuckinred:

    I may take a few days off and travel to the court where he is on trial. MAN would I love to see his fall in person.

    I don’t like to wish ill on anybody but some people just ASK for it.

  123. 123
    Tim F. says:

    @Martin: The Cantor guy put it on YouTube. The moron practically begged the local cops to arrest him.

  124. 124
    stuckinred says:

    @The Populist: Fuck him and take Boortz with him.

  125. 125
    The Populist says:

    @stuckinred:

    Oh and if Hannity’s charity isn’t fraud, I give up. The IRS needs to reclassify his charity as a for profit business (since he lives off it) and make him pay back taxes with penalties and interest. If they don’t, bust them for tax fraud.

  126. 126
    The Populist says:

    @stuckinred:

    Can we throw in Malkin too? Limpballs and Beck are too dumb to be taken that seriously anyway!

  127. 127

    […] teabitches, do the same rules apply to White Christian Racist Terrorists? Your “antiterror doctrine clearly states that we must strip these “terrorists” (no such thing as alleged in the war on terror) […]

  128. 128
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    @The Populist: Hasn’t that been the nature of these guys? From Forrest’s Klan to the Hutaree, they’ve always been cowardly shits– running in gangs with their faces hidden, and always but always attacking peaceful people?

    Go back to the Open Letter to Conservatives; he puts it pretty succinctly- it’s all about their “foundation of cowardice.”

  129. 129
    WereBear says:

    @JGabriel: When Kentucky has weather too extreme for terrorism, we have some really wimpy terrorists. You get some heat and humidity and possibly a tornado. What’s their problem?

  130. 130
    IndyLib says:

    @stuckinred:
    They spent all that extra money trying to figure out how to give that scholarship money to the real ‘merickan soldiers kids. If they gave it to the kids of anyone who wasn’t the right shade of ‘merickan it would just be a handout.

  131. 131
    David Hunt says:

    @The Populist:

    I agree with you. I’m for all people getting their rights. It’s the only way to assure that the innocent schmo charged with [insert worst crime ever] gets his rights as well. I was simply pointing out the Fair Economist that even if we did throw these militia guys in Gitmo, that even that wouldn’t get through to a large portion of the wingnut pro-torture, pro-indefinite detention crowd, because they don’t see Them as people. It only matters what happens to We. Whatever happens to Them is entirely justified by definition.

  132. 132
    gnomedad says:

    You DFHs are “exploiting terrorism” by rubbing the wingers’ noses in this.

    Next up: a presser describing how this “Christianist terrorist” plot was averted. Yeah, that’ll fly.

  133. 133
    Martin says:

    @Tim F.: That’s a distinction without difference. It’s only a threat worth acting against if you put it on YouTube or some other highly visible platform?

    I agree that’s why it’s played out the way it has, but it’s bullshit.

  134. 134
    The Populist says:

    @WereBear:

    One can argue that climate change caused that…oh silly me…

  135. 135
    Tim F. says:

    @Martin: No, because posting the threat on YouTube made it trivially easy for the police to find him. I can assure you that detectives are spending plenty of time and tax money finding the assholes who left phone threats and sent the noose letters.

  136. 136
    barbara says:

    We were going to overthrow the government on Tuesday, but then it rained.

  137. 137
    gnomedad says:

    “American-born Christianists” — that’s the phrase I wanna see.

  138. 138
    The Populist says:

    @David Hunt:

    David, I agree with you. I was just supporting what you said. IF we threw these fucks in Gitmo (they deserve it as much as the worst AQ ops do using rightie arguments) the right would scream and yell. They would point to Obama and say he is treating American citizens wrong and these fucks deserve due process (and they do, so do the terrorists that plan attacks for and on American soil).

    A criminal planning murders deserves zero sympathy. If charged, these idiots should have the book thrown at them (and hard).

    Oh and sedition is an interesting charge. Now I do want to ask did these guys plan to attack the government or just the police? If it’s police only, sedition could be a tough thing to prove BUT since police swear an oath to defend the constitution I may see where Holder is going with this.

  139. 139
    Svensker says:

    @Martin:

    Sort of a tangential point here – the guy who threatened Cantor has been arrested, but none of the people that threatened how many other members of Congress? What am I missing here?

    The guy posted a youtube saying he was going to kill Cantor and his family. It’s pretty easy to figure out who he was and that he was making a grave threat.

    Throwing a brick is fairly anonymous. Sending an e-mail saying “I hope you die” is rude and scary, but not the same as “I am going to kill your kids.”

  140. 140
    catclub says:

    This has been a happy wankfest of the anti-torture, pro-habeas corpus liberals – of which I am a member.

    However, it stops being so happy when the pro-torture
    guys starts agreeing with the things being written here in jest, by us, by saying: “Now you understand how important it is to stop the terrorists using any and all methods.”

  141. 141
    jibeaux says:

    Not that it would be the worst thing about them by a long shot, bu I’m guessing that there will be icing on the cake in the form of who’s had SSDI, Medicaid, SCHIP, food stamps, WIC for the girlfriends/wives, etc. I hates a hypocritical terrorist.

  142. 142
    The Populist says:

    @catclub:

    And I reply back to those schlubs that everybody deserves their day in court without being tortured, coerced into making admissions against one’s will, etc.

    I am sorry, but I do live by the Do unto others as you would have others do unto youcode. I am not even a practicing religious person, so I wonder (amused) if that makes me more righteous than the self righteous god squad types?

  143. 143
    The Populist says:

    @jibeaux:

    Please Jeebus, let us see what kind of aid these fools took from our supposedly wicked government.

  144. 144
    Johnny B says:

    Honestly, if Obama already knows he’s going to fold on military commissions (at least with respect to the most “hardened” terrorists), he should get Senator Graham to agree that military commissions are limited to anyone who attempts to kill or who does kill mass numbers of Americans and who is a member of a group whose goal is the overthrow of our government and/or weakening the country’s economy. If Graham agrees and such a law passes, Obama should immediately round up these militia members (“terrorists”) and send them off to Guantanomo. I’d love to hear the tortured (pun intended) rhetoric for why that isn’t permitted.

  145. 145
    Uloborus says:

    @David Hunt:
    Absolutely. It wouldn’t change anything. I don’t think it’s ‘race’ per se. ‘Religion’ has *more* to do with it, but basically they see these guys as at least tangentially on their side, so to Wingers the same rules just don’t apply. They’re not even relevant.

    Also, let’s say it worked. This is the argument I feel Glenzilla doesn’t grasp. Obama can utterly and completely denounce every single thing the Bush administration did. Heck, he could have Bush and Cheney arrested (hypothetically). The next time a Republican is in power that will mean absolutely nothing.

    Nothing at all.

    I mean, we already had laws against torture on the books. Laws against wiretapping. We had precedent saying waterboarding is torture. We’re signed up to the Geneva Convention. If the president decides to pull this malarkey, he can come up with excuses or just plain ignore the law. Only the checks and balances of the American governmental system can stop him. If *at the time it happens* congress or SCOTUS feel like cheerleading him instead or are just totally dysfunctional, what any previous president did is meaningless.

  146. 146
    The Populist says:

    @Johnny B:

    Johnny, the argument will be thrown back at liberal minded folks who have always stuck by the belief that our court system should be used for any and all criminal trials.

  147. 147
    sherifffruitfly says:

    Uh… this guy is white isn’t he? By definition white folks can’t be terrorists. Please try to keep up.

  148. 148
    maus says:

    @Nylund:

    I think they might have the decency to admit that their policies of torture only apply to Arabs/Muslims – that their belief of what is morally right and wrong depends solely on the race/religion of the victim.

    Being smart enough to tell right from wrong rather than being too dumb to understand the horror of your actions is not “decent” no matter how you compare or appeal to low expectations.

    It’s like patting Stormfront on the back, or something.

  149. 149
    jibeaux says:

    @The Populist:

    There almost has to be. How many decent jobs can there be in Adrian, Michigan? And I understand ammo isn’t cheap.

  150. 150
    Johnny B says:

    @The Populist: Not if Obama first explains that he is agreeing to this compromise as he understands the limited need for military commissions for the worst offenders.

    If we are going down this path anyway, I see no reason to use it in the first instance on domestic, right-wing terrorists. Quite frankly, the lawyers of these militia members and those who support them will be filing constitutional challenges to military commissions the next day. Who knows, maybe Chief Justice Roberts and his conversative cohorts will find military commissions constitutionally deficient when they realize they will be used for angry, right wing Americans who engage in domestic terrorism. If not, angry, right wing Americans can denouce the conservative majority for their failure to recognize their “constitutional right” to engage in domestic terrorism.

  151. 151

    A couple of serious points here:

    (1) We don’t know all the circumstances. All too often, this sort of thing (whether the terrorists are Islamist or Christianist) turns out to be the work of an FBI provocateur. We really need some sort of law on that.

    (2) I really do believe we need more of these. It won’t close GTMO or convince the right wing that torture is wrong, but it might at least convince them to limit our wiretap, surveillance and datamining laws and tighten their language requiring all terror suspects to be detained indefinitely without trial to ensure that it doesn’t refer to decent, all-American Klansman.

    (3) How long do you think it will take before someone on the right comes out with proof that these guys were really left-wingers, just like Hitler?

  152. 152
    The Populist says:

    @Johnny B:

    Good points, but I am uncomfortable with this. If many of us say we should try non-military criminals in our civilian courts (and AQ are criminals) it’s hard to say we should go against that to make a point.

    Even if they do challenge, who’s to say this doesn’t backfire and encourage more nutjobs to rise up against the evil “satan” Obama who doesn’t even believe in his own rhetoric (their rhetoric not mine).

  153. 153
    furioso ateo says:

    @Uloborus: It’s true that the only legal things keeping a future President from torturing would be an active and effective Congress or SCOTUS, and if those things fail then he has free reign. But if down the road some other guy comes into office and will throw him in jail, then he might refrain. But only if there was already a precedence of such a thing happening. Presidents will continue to break the law, and in large part because we have failed to create the precedence that would discourage that.

  154. 154
    aimai says:

    Render them to Gitmo. They can come out, with trials, when the prison is closed down.

    aimai

  155. 155
    Zifnab says:

    @catclub:

    However, it stops being so happy when the pro-torture
    guys starts agreeing with the things being written here in jest, by us, by saying: “Now you understand how important it is to stop the terrorists using any and all methods.”

    It becomes a little more disturbing, but at least more consistent. At least when conservatives embrace equal opportunity tyrannical government, they are worried about security issues and not just “Zomg, teh scary brown peples!”

    You can have a rational discussion with someone about the extent of legal law enforcement. But the kool-aid drinkers that insist whitey can do no wrong are hopeless.

  156. 156
    JGabriel says:

    @Enlightened Layperson:

    How long do you think it will take before someone on the right comes out with proof that these guys were really left-wingers, just like Hitler?

    As soon as yesterday. BoB is already claiming they’re allied with Muslims.

    .

  157. 157
    Zifnab says:

    @furioso ateo:

    Presidents will continue to break the law, and in large part because we have failed to create the precedence that would discourage that.

    But Dick Nixon said “If the President does it, then it’s not illegal”. What ever happened to the Halicoyon days of the 70s? :-p

    And Bush did pay a price – or at least his party did. I’d say losing both Houses of Congress and the White House inside four years is a pretty firm rebuke from the nation’s citizenry. Law breaking does have consequences. Just not among the GOP faithful.

    Fun side note, you may have noticed Mikey Steele getting lesbian lap dances on the RNC dime. When millions in fund raising gets pissed down the drain by the pack of crooks and con-men you’ve got running the party infrastructure, there’s definitely some efficiency gains to running cleaner candidates.

  158. 158
    mcc says:

    @Martin: I guess I don’t get what you’re complaining about here. Mr. Enoch did something illegal, he posted a violent threat in a public forum. He got arrested for it. That’s how the system is supposed to work. Maybe he’ll get off if the threat is found not credible, or if he’s found insane (plausible).

    You seem to be complaining that other people who issued threatening statements weren’t charged. Probably those other statements weren’t as explicit. And people have been arrested for making violent threats against, say, President Obama in the last few weeks.

    Meanwhile via the TPM story it seems this isn’t the first time Mr. Enoch had made threatening public statements:

    “President Obama, you and Vice President Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and your Security Council say very bad things about me,” he says “Your punishment is coming, the swine, it will be severe, and you will beg for mercy to your god. It will be severe, you will know god’s swine, god has warned you.”

  159. 159
    The Populist says:

    @Martin:

    Kinda hard to arrest cowards who throw bricks and leave anonymous messages.

  160. 160
    Bender says:

    (Actually, the last one would be really, really interesting to find out. I’d love to know who picked up campaign contributions from these wackos.)

    Yeah, that’s an interesting question, all right.

  161. 161
    Svensker says:

    @Zifnab:

    I’d say losing both Houses of Congress and the White House inside four years is a pretty firm rebuke from the nation’s citizenry. Law breaking does have consequences. Just not among the GOP faithful.

    The GOP lost because Bush was a screw-up, not because he broke laws. Look at 2004. If Iraq had been a moderate success or if Bush had not blown his handling of Katrina, or if the economic crash had held off another 6 months, I think it very likely that Obama might have lost.

  162. 162
    Svensker says:

    @The Populist:

    Kinda hard to arrest cowards who throw bricks and leave anonymous messages.

    Nope. Per Bender’s link, the reason they have not been arrested is because they are figments of liberals’ imaginations.

  163. 163
    LD50 says:

    @Bender: Here, Bender, I will say what you Republicans refuse to say:

    “Try him in a fair court. If he’s guilty, throw him in jail for a long time. Being angry at a politician is no excuse for violence, period.”

    Now don’t come back until you’ve made us a list of prominent conservatives who’ve said the same thing.

  164. 164
    furioso ateo says:

    @Zifnab: I don’t think a concern for party success is the rule of thumb for sitting presidents. A lot of them push against what their party wants, even the base, and do things they know will be unpopular. Bush bailed out the banks, LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act and I’m sure there are numerous other examples. They knew these things were going to hurt their party, but they did it anyway. If a president believes in or wants to torture bad enough, he will, party be damned.

    What is a stronger consideration than party health is the thought that they might end up in prison for their actions as president. That might change a few minds.

  165. 165
    The Populist says:

    Speaking of this topic…if the right are so pissed off maybe it’s time to wake up and realize running whack job extremists will not put you back in power.

    Scott Brown ran on a pretty moderate campaign platform that leaned right.

    Al Franken won (using comparisons here) because he sold a common sense approach to governing.

    Look at the California US Senate GOP primaries. I read Tom Campbell is third behind whack job DeVore and failed corporate CEO Fiorina.

    Weird how a common sense GOP member can’t even get ahead in California. Not that he would beat Boxer, but Campbell would fare better from a strategic standpoint (he’s liberal on social issues) but the rank and file insist on purity. THIS is what is wrong with the GOP.

    Boxer will trounce either DeVore or Fiorina solely because they carry baggage. He is a loon and she is considered one of the biggest failures of the corporate world in the last decade. Her employees hated her, the founding families hated her (Hewlett-Packard) and the board finally realized the error in their ways by giving her a massive golden parachute to show her the door.

    Arnold won in California by sitting on the fence and also getting the benefits of facing bad Dem challengers. The GOP do not see this?

  166. 166
    The Populist says:

    @Bender:

    Oh golly, you sure showed us a revelation. Gosh darn, one Obama supporter vs. thousands of whack job, anonymous right wing brick throwers who find nothing wrong with damaging other people’s property (so much for property rights, eh?).

    Not only that but idiots at rallies that threaten and cajole others whose opinions differ from theirs.

    Find me more examples or the point is moot.

  167. 167
    AhabTRuler says:

    Per Bender’s link

    And to think, he was just about to settle down to a busy day of goat-blowing, but now he has to troll libbie blogs pissing on the fires that his fellow travelers have set.

    Puke funnelin’ is hard work. Now watch this drive.

  168. 168
    The Populist says:

    @Svensker:

    Figments!?!?! HA! Thanks for the humor.

  169. 169
    "Fair and Balanced" Dave says:

    Sort of a tangential point here – the guy who threatened Cantor has been arrested, but none of the people that threatened how many other members of Congress? What am I missing here?

    The guy who threatened Cantor was mentally ill. The teabaggers threatening the Democrats are batshit insane.

  170. 170
    LD50 says:

    @The Populist: What’s even cuter is when wingnuts cite the Weather Underground for examples of violent American leftists. Gee, you find nothing embarrassing about the fact that you had to reach back FORTY YEARS for your ‘oh yeah? what about THESE guys, huh, huh?’ example?

  171. 171
    The Populist says:

    @AhabTRuler:

    Love the right. I can always count on their trolls coming to enlightened message boards to sell some weak argument that liberals = tea baggers.

    Yet, last time I checked liberals denounce atheists and anarchists who smash up city blocks in protests. Last time I checked many liberals denounce extreme liberal groups who burn down private property to sell their agenda.

    When I look at the right, I see them cheering on their extremists. They give them standing o’s, wave their flags and encourage violence.

  172. 172
    The Populist says:

    @LD50:

    Hehe, you and I are on the same point. I just made a point relating to the same argument.

    I don’t see liberals saying encouraging things about their extremists. Nobody on the left denies that extremists exist, but none I can think of give these people support or a pat on the back…especially when they commit crimes in the name of their cause.

  173. 173
    drkrick says:

    ‘Cause Harper’s Ferry turned out so very well for John Brown and his bunch.

    Brown’s raid was a major factor in polarizing the country and putting the Southern pro-secession minority into political position to fulfill their longstanding goal. The ensuing war accelerated the abolition of slavery in this country by at least decades.

    Viewed as a provocation intended to hasten the end of slavery, the raid was a huge success. Surviving a long time after the raid was not high on Brown’s agenda.

  174. 174
    kdaug says:

    Um, I’m surprised that no one has brought this up yet, but…

    These jackasses are going to have a real fun time in jail. Officers will be the guards of these idiots, FELLOW OFFICERS of those they were planning to kill.

    Might not be torture, but it ain’t going to be fun for them.

    At all.

  175. 175
    stuckinred says:

    @drkrick:So, extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice?

  176. 176
    furioso ateo says:

    @kdaug: Police officers don’t guard prisons. Prison guard is its own job, you’re not an officer of the peace.

    But while they sit in cells waiting for trial, well, that’s a different story.

    “Officer, why do you have a truncheon and lube?”

    “The lube is for my hands. They chap easy”

  177. 177
    kdaug says:

    @furioso ateo:

    Yeah, I should have been clear – while they’re waiting for trial, particularly the next few days, should prove to be – shall we say – uncomfortable.

  178. 178
    Steeplejack says:

    @Martin:

    And we could use Michigan’s exports–soybeans, grain, bad cars–to pay for the whole thing. Win!

  179. 179

    @stuckinred:

    is no vice?

    I seem to have missed the moral judgement in his historical correction.

  180. 180
    Bender says:

    @LD50:

    I will say what you Republicans refuse to say:Now don’t come back until you’ve made us a list of prominent conservatives who’ve said the same thing.

    As much as I respect blog commenters, you don’t actually qualify as “prominent” in my book. Kind of a false equivalence, isn’t it?

    Anywho… What Republicans refuse to say? Everyone I’ve read (even other Michigan militia groups) is calling them “nuts” and “kooks” and “insane.” You mean, what Democratsrefuse to say (remember Ball-Juice’s “Cantor’s a liar,” “He got what he deserves,” and “He probably just got courteous pro-Obamacare emails and is blowing them up for Joooooo political gain” hate-fest from a few days ago)?

  181. 181
    Daddy Love says:

    I blame librulz.

  182. 182
    JGabriel says:

    @kay:

    I’ll take a “wait and see” attitude, this time, thank you very much, before we run off and occupy Ann Arbor.

    Libtard. A Real American never hesitates!

    .

  183. 183
    LD50 says:

    As much as I respect blog commenters, you don’t actually qualify as “prominent” in my book. Kind of a false equivalence, isn’t it?

    Then I invite you to give me a list of prominent liberals who say “while we of course don’t condone violence of any kind, surely these violent acts against conservatives are all imaginary, were all committed by GOP plants, and besides, you can’t blame them for wanting to commit violence when their country is being destroyed by conservatives, oh but not so say that we condone this violence.”

  184. 184
    JGabriel says:

    @Bender:

    remember Ball-Juice’s “Cantor’s a liar,” “He got what he deserves,” and “He probably just got courteous pro-Obamacare emails and is blowing them up for Joooooo political gain” hate-fest from a few days ago?

    No, not really. Why don’t you provide links to those specific statements to prove your point? Or do they not exist?

    .

  185. 185
    LD50 says:

    @JGabriel: Bender probably figures that since ‘that’s what libtards are all thinking’ he doesn’t need to cite examples.

  186. 186
    LD50 says:

    Bender, can you explain to me why no prominent Republicans said anything like this:

    “Try him in a fair court. If he’s guilty, throw him in jail for a long time. Being angry at a politician is no excuse for violence, period.”

    …to condemn the attacks against Democrats immediately before and after the HCR vote?

    That was, after all, the point, which you evaded in such grand fashion.

  187. 187
    kay says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Cherries, asparagus, a stunningly beautiful lake. Just lay off Michigan. Adrian is a little rough, but Michigan is a great state.

    Martin probably wants to seize their fresh water just like Cheney wanted oil.

  188. 188
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bender:

    (remember Ball-Juice’s “Cantor’s a liar,” “He got what he deserves,” and “He probably just got courteous pro-Obamacare emails and is blowing them up for Joooooo political gain” hate-fest from a few days ago)?

    Psst. The guy in this video? No connection to the stray bullet that Cantor’s occasional marketing guy found on the windowsill of his conference room, which was what we thought Cantor was blowing out of proportion.

    If there was a connection between the two events, you might have a point, but there isn’t.

  189. 189
    LD50 says:

    @kay:

    Michigan is a great state. Martin probably wants to seize their fresh water just like Cheney wanted oil.

    I would say that selling their fresh water to California would be a great way for Michigan to make money, except that California doesn’t have the money to pay for it anyway.

  190. 190

    @Bender:

    “Cantor’s a liar,”

    It doesn’t take a ballistics expert from the cop shop to figure that bullet out – asshole. A six year old that saw it would ask, “why’s that bullet next to the window?” You can act as stupid as you like…

    Cantor is a liar.

  191. 191

    […] Balloon Juice, they play a particularly dumb version of the "my opponents are hypocrites" game while lumping together of everyone they think of as "on […]

  192. 192
    Bender says:

    Gosh darn, one Obama supporter vs. thousands of whack job, anonymous right wing brick throwers who find nothing wrong with damaging other people’s property (so much for property rights, eh?). Not only that but idiots at rallies that threaten and cajole others whose opinions differ from theirs.

    One? One? It is to laugh…Surely you aren’t brain-damaged enough to have forgotten the thousands of whack-job, anonymous left-wing brick-throwers who found nothing wrong with damaging other people’s property and threatening people whose opinions differ from their own!

    How about union thugs who, not only threaten, but actually physically assault vendors who are selling American flags at rallies for people whose opinions differ from their union bosses?

    Surely your six surviving brain cells could — oh, wait — forgot I was posting to a Ball Juicer. Question retracted.

  193. 193
    Xopher says:

    Well, while this clearly justifies invading Michigan, you’re not looking far enough ahead.

    It justifies invading Kansas a year from now!

  194. 194
    Bender says:

    No, not really. Why don’t you provide links to those specific statements to prove your point? Or do they not exist?

    Don’t make me wade though three days of Ball Juicers’ nonsensical, whining, eighth-grade rhetoric just to prove you wrong. The Cantor thread from a few days ago. Look it up. There can’t have been many.

  195. 195

    @Bender:
    Don’t want to touch the bullet, eh?

    Who are these “thousands” you’re bringing up? Anarchists? Dumbass – that’s not left. That’s your libertarians taken the rest of the way out there…

    Cantor is a liar.

  196. 196
    The Populist says:

    @Bender:

    Wow, you are going after intelligence? Please…you just used 50 different GOP talking points in your counter to me.

    Lesson for you my right wing friend: Where did I attack you like you just did to me? Hmmm, I thought so. You want to make a point, avoid attacking my intelligence, friend.

    As for your “points”. I covered that in previous points. Anarchists and other far, far left wing people are NOT being egged on by the dem party establishment. THEY exist on their own plane.

    As for your buds on the right? I see the likes of Bachmann and her ilk congratulating them, egging them on.

    As for unions? That is a fucking myth dude. I know people in unions and have never heard of such a thing.

    You must think you are here arguing with the brain deads at places like Malkin’s board. You’d be wrong. Try harder to come up with PROOF if you want to debate with me. Right now, you sure do live up to every right winger I’ve ever had a discussion with. Attack the messenger with talking points then attack that person’s credibility.

    Good luck there. Go run back to your overlords and tell them you really showed us. Wow, I am super impressed.

    Idiot.

  197. 197
    Bender says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    No connection to the stray bullet that Cantor’s occasional marketing guy found on the windowsill of his conference room, which was what we thought Cantor was blowing out of proportion.

    I am aware, but Cantor also made a statement that day about other verbal and written threats he’d recieved, which most Ball-Juicers immediately said were made up, exaggerated, and anyway, he deserved it. Someone posted that the mail “threats” were probably courteously-worded “please pass Health Care Reform” letters.

    Again, Cole & Co. don’t get that many posts up in a day. You could find the thread if you wanted to wade through it.

  198. 198
    The Populist says:

    @Chuck Butcher:

    It’s sad, I tried to find some info on these mysterious union thugs and the only info I find are on rightie blogs.

    Interesting, not even Fox News has any info on this mysterious band of marauding union thugs.

    I know the right hate the unions. I guess they hate on them because they allow for AMERICANS to make good livings. No company is forced to sign these agreements YET they do.

    I love asshats who pop in from Malkin/Erick Erickson sites and try to play high and mighty.

    He can tear us all down with rhetoric but it’s just that until he backs up his claims. He can’t, so Bender is the true idiot as well as a liar.

  199. 199
    The Populist says:

    @Bender:

    Ooh, he showed us yet again. Man this Bender is quite clever with his Ball juice references. Guess it’s better to be called that than worship at the feet of the ever fat Rush Limpballs.

  200. 200
    The Populist says:

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Fact: Righties hate cops. Funny, they love the troops so much they cut funding to VA hospitals and I assume this hatred for cops is because they are unionized.

    Interesting. Keep it coming bender. You are making it so easy to pick apart the right wing brain.

  201. 201

    @The Populist:

    Ball juice references

    Well, it is a tad more clever than the usual “leftards” crap.

  202. 202
    LD50 says:

    @Bender:

    How about union thugs who, not only threaten, but actually physically assault vendors who are selling American flags at rallies for people whose opinions differ from their union bosses?

    I admit it makes a nice wingnut fantasy, but do you have a citation for that? Or is that asking you to do too much work?

  203. 203

    @The Populist:

    these mysterious union thugs

    You do remember the BushCo mysterious disappearing WMDs? The benders responses?

  204. 204
    LD50 says:

    @Chuck Butcher: I predict that pointing out that there were no WMD’s falls into Bender’s category of ‘nonsensical, whining, eighth-grade rhetoric’.

  205. 205
    The Populist says:

    @LD50:

    He doesn’t. Here is where he gets such nonsense:

    Brent Bozell’s Newbusters: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/m.....g-violence

    David Horowitz’s blog Newsreal: http://www.newsrealblog.com/20.....f-tactics/

    Michelle Malkin’s blog: http://michellemalkin.com/2009.....-of-power/

    There is definitely a meme here.

  206. 206
    The Populist says:

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Once my post clears moderation check out Malkin, Horowitz and Bozell’s blog/”news” sites for Bender’s points of reference on unions.

    The fact that all these blowhards are selling a meme that is so obviously an urban myth cracks me up to no end.

    Funny, where is Bender? I guess his tiny head exploded.

  207. 207
    The Populist says:

    Media Matters: http://mediamatters.org/blog/200908080004

    Inventing tales of a union “beating”

    Go watch the YouTube video. (Or, the “shocking video,” as Power Line hypes it.) The first thing you notice when the camera starts rolling is a union member already sprawled out on the ground with somebody standing over him. No explanation of how he got there (pushed, shoved, punched?) and Ham couldn’t care less. Then yes, Gladney is pulled to the ground by somebody wearing a union shirt. (At the :06 mark.) But instead of Gladney being beaten and punched, as his attorney describes, and instead of union “thugs” standing over him and threatening him, Gladney bounces right back on his feet in approximately two seconds and the scuffle ends.

  208. 208
  209. 209
    mantis says:

    I see the braintrust at Reason is on the case, taking aim at this BJ post (and completely missing the point, of course).

    I guess Balloon Juice is saying that, well, since these terrorists are on Goldberg and Reynolds’ team, that they will defend them? Frankly, from their website’s concerns and the general sense of their intellectual and cultural milieu I got from it, it would surprise the hell out of me if the Hutaree gave much of a damn about the vital importance of keeping Gitmo open, nor do the Jonah Goldberg/Glenn Reynolds right generally make much common cause with Christian apocalyptic warriors in the woods. But I am glad to see Balloon Juice is setting themselves up to be strong watchdogs for the Hutaree’s procedural rights as this proceeds.

    See, the militia group probably doesn’t care about Gitmo, and Goldberg/Reynolds aren’t big fans of militias (debatable), so umm, uh, Wolverines! Or something. It doesn’t have to make sense, I guess.

    But the best part, is comments #1 and #2, in which the Randroids compare the allegedly seditious militia group with, you guessed it, the founding fathers and the American Revolution:

    Ken Shultz|3.29.10 @ 5:09PM|

    Even if it’s as bad as they say, the crazies always go over the edge first. Doesn’t discredit the rest.

    It happened that way in the American Revolution, actually. The Loyal Nine or the Sons of Liberty, whatever you want to call them, were firebrand revolutionaries and by 1776, after the adults had taken over, only John Hancock was left in anything like a responsible position.

    Then Washington, Jefferson and Franklin had taken over… That’ll happen here too if this keeps getting bigger. The adults will take over…

    …but the crazies always go over the edge first. Doesn’t mean they’re wrong about everything. That’s always been the case. There is nothing new under the sun.
    reply to this

    prolefeed|3.29.10 @ 5:18PM|

    I would imagine many people in the British government and loyalist groups during the Revolutionary War characterized Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin as crazies, terrorists, and worse. I mean, they were treasonous nutjobs trying to overthrow the legitimate government and institute a form of government that couldn’t possibly work, right?

    Wow.

  210. 210
    The Populist says:

    Mantis,

    It’s truly all about control and power. The right wing brain wants to feel they can lord over the rest of us and hold rules over our heads they never follow. Gitmo is a lever of power they can use. They care not one WIT about consistency, fairness or rule of law. They are the people who believe in naked power and could care less how they get it.

    I once was a blind GOP follower. I left in 2000 when I saw how far the right would go to run this country with lies, activist courts and propaganda.

    Funny how the right cares about the founding fathers. They founded what is termed as a liberal democracy. They were LIBERALS (Adams, Hamilton were the right wingers of their day).

  211. 211
    Bender says:

    @The Populist:

    As for your “points”. I covered that in previous points. Anarchists and other far, far left wing people are NOT being egged on by the dem party establishment. THEY exist on their own plane.

    Nor have Bachmann (who, you must realize, has just about the least seniority of any Republican in DC) or any of the “GOP party establishment” egged on these nuts. Again, even the other Michigan militias think that these dudes are insane, and refused to help them. Talk about existing on their own plane…

    You must think you are here arguing with the brain deads at places like Malkin’s board.

    Ouch, so now look who wants to insult people’s intelligence. Your high horse didn’t last long! Surely you realize that the “I know union guys and I never heard of it” argument makes Malkin’s board look like a Mensa meeting.

  212. 212
    LD50 says:

    @Bender: So does this mean that you have no citation for your ‘rampaging leftwing union goons’ urban legend?

  213. 213
    Bender says:

    @The Populist:

    Media Matters? Yeah, now I’ll quote Newsbusters that says they kicked him into a coma. Look, six people were arrested after that incident, two for assault. It was on CNN, not just Fox. If you want to pretend it didn’t happen, then it wouldn’t be the first, or hundredth, time that you guys didn’t show much interest in the Real World.

  214. 214
    Bender says:

    @LD50:

    You’re a hoot. Do you also need a link to the earth revolving around the sun? I hope you realize that The Daily Show and Ball-Juice are not enough to inform you of current events.

  215. 215
    The Populist says:

    @Bender:

    My high horse ended when you decided to insult me. You aren’t pushing buttons so get over yourself.

    Hehe, this is the best you can do? Nice…thanks for that! No comment on my links? Didn’t think so.

    Bachmann is not a senior member of congress…no duh Sherlock. She is a beloved figure who sure gets a lot of screen time. She was out on the ledge of the capital egging them on. The tapes don’t lie. Check out any coverage from last week and you will see. Plus there are numerous witnesses who said that when the crazies got out of order inside the capital building the sargeant at arms tried to remove them and these people got standing o’s from the republican members.

    What is with partisans like you who use party first ideology as fact? Can’t you step out of the bubble for a minute or two and see some of the truth in the world. Guess what? Many of us here can see both sides. I am a registered independent, former partisan GOPnick. Glad as HELL I left that nonsense bunch of sheep years ago.

    @LD50:

    He does not. He continues to bury himself with talking points that can easily be proven wrong.

  216. 216
    The Populist says:

    @Bender:

    I used other citations from right wing blogs that got moderated.

    I at least counter with facts, what are you doing? Telling me it was on CNN? I see the guy who claimed all this has NO EYEWITNESSES and the tape he is in shows him getting right back up. What’s up with that?

    These union “goons”? How do we even know this isn’t another staged video? And we don’t even see what caused these people to start fighting. Seems well edited to me.

    Reality? Nice try arguing with me Makewi errr BoB errr Bender.

  217. 217
    The Populist says:

    LD50:

    Nah, he thinks he’s owning us. The only reality I see is the fact I post links. I don’t see shit from him but insults and bullshit.

  218. 218

    @Bender:
    The bullet?

    And Cantor is a liar?

    YOU brought your horseshit and ?

  219. 219
    The Populist says:

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Interesting folks. I go to Google and do a search (something Bender can’t seem to do, now i know why) and I look for CNN and Kenneth Gladney and the only links I see are home made videos (heavily edited) filmed by either Fox or right wing tea partiers.

    The only people making this into any deal are righties when nobody can tell us exactly what happened to Gladney? I see he was hurt but how did it happen? Why?

    See, right wingers are happy to make up their minds without facts (thus using no brain power) yet I go out of my way to research this point (which I do remember the meme from last summer).

    Gee, Bender you told me to go look it up. My natural curiosity leads me to do so and I find nothing but right wing talking points. Wow. Thanks bud.

  220. 220
    Xopher says:

    Why are people arguing with this fuckwit? He’s got nothing, and he knows it. He’s just wasting energy we could be using for serious discussion.

    Serious discussion: Is it tactically better to talk as if the standards applied to brown furriners should be applied to the Hutari (downside: stupid fucktards will think we’re serious; implies those standards are tolerable) OR defend the Hutari’s rights, as we know we should, losing the political point entirely and making the stupid right think we agree with them about the treatment of brown furriners?

    Is there a way to split the baby on this? I know we can insist on calling the Hutari terrorists, not that the MSM is willing to go further than ‘extremists’, but what else can we do?

  221. 221
    Xopher says:

    @The Populist: Gee, Bender you told me to go look it up. My natural curiosity leads me to do so and I find nothing but right wing talking points. Wow. Thanks bud.

    Just so. He’s trying to waste your time and divert the conversation. Ignore him and he’ll go away.

  222. 222
    The Populist says:

    Oh and this union thugs nonsense should be ended now.

    It’s a lie. Why?

    When this edited POS starts I see a black man on the ground. Apparently he’s one of these SEIU “thugs.” Okay, so why is he on the ground and why is Gladney apparently hanging over him?

    Then some guys come along and clear the idiots away from the man on the ground so where is the definitive proof that Gladney was hurt like he claims?

    Gladney claims the man on the ground called him the N word. I find that odd seeing the man on the ground is a black person as well.

    Uh huh…Point, match, game over.

  223. 223
    LD50 says:

    @Bender: Nice bravado, Bender, but I’ll take your response as a “yes it’s an urban legend, but I like it so I believe it, you libtard”.

  224. 224
    The Populist says:

    @Xopher:

    I know…call it lulz. All my facts are up and I even rewatched the video.

    Makewi = Bender I get it.

  225. 225
    The Populist says:

    @Xopher:

    Agreed and understood but these idiots must know that points will be posted to show what fuckwits they are.

  226. 226
    tc125231 says:

    @kay: That’s right! Anthony Scalia cited Jack Bauer as PROOF that we should torture –because comic books are IDENTICAL to the real world!

  227. 227
    Bender says:

    @The Populist:

    It’s sad, I tried to find some info on these mysterious union thugs and the only info I find are on rightie blogs. Interesting, not even Fox News has any info on this mysterious band of marauding union thugs.

    You aren’t very bright, I realize, but I thought you could figure out Google.

    There’s nothing mysterious about these guys. They wear purple SEIU shirts in the videos (there’s more than one video) and a couple of them got arrested for beating down that little guy:

    Elston McCowan, 47, of St. Louis, and Perry Molens, 50, of De Soto, each were charged with assaulting a person and interfering with police. They are accused of scuffling with and injuring Kenneth Gladney, a demonstrator with the Tea Party, a group generally opposed to Democrats’ universal health care proposals.

  228. 228
    LD50 says:

    @Bender:

    You aren’t very bright, I realize, but I thought you could figure out Google.

    If you can, then why don’t you have the links for us?

  229. 229
    Bender says:

    @LD50:

    Do they arrest people for urban legends where you come from? For their sakes, I hope those SEIU guys have a better defense than yours.

  230. 230
    Bender says:

    If you can, then why don’t you have the links for us?

    I gave you their names. Can you really not figure out Google? Must you be spoon-fed like an infant? I’m actually starting to get embarrassed for you.

  231. 231
    LD50 says:

    @Bender:

    Anywho… What Republicans refuse to say? Everyone I’ve read (even other Michigan militia groups) is calling them “nuts” and “kooks” and “insane.”

    Wrong again:

    http://firedoglake.com/2010/03.....icize-fbi/

    Why do you conservatives refuse to simply condemn violence from your own side?

  232. 232
    LD50 says:

    @Bender: Can you name any real news site that corroborates the spin on the story you’re peddling? Or can you explain the discrepancies Populist points out?

  233. 233
    Bender says:

    She was out on the ledge of the capital egging them on. The tapes don’t lie. Check out any coverage from last week and you will see. Plus there are numerous witnesses who said that when the crazies got out of order inside the capital building the sargeant at arms tried to remove them and these people got standing o’s from the republican members.

    That’s some huge balls, to whine about links, and then not provide one for an outrageous and unbelievable assertion like this one. No one egged anyone on to form a militia and plan to kill cops. It’s simply a plan that wouldn’t make sense to anyone outside that loony compound. Again, even the other militias think those guys are insane.

    What is with partisans like you who use party first ideology as fact? Can’t you step out of the bubble for a minute or two and see some of the truth in the world.

    Aaaaaaand, that should 86 my irony-meter.

  234. 234
    LD50 says:

    gain, even the other militias think those guys are insane.

    But evidently, not most rightwing bloggers.

  235. 235
    The Populist says:

    @Bender:

    Yawn…links please or it did not happen. I did my part. I’m done with this until you can bring more honesty and stop trolling.

    Irony is lost on partisans like you. How, pray tell, am I a partisan when I have no allegiance to any party idiot?

    Oh well, don’t answer. You are now officially boring.

  236. 236
    The Populist says:

    @LD50:

    Yep or we’d see more of them condemning these folks.

    It’s funny how the right call out well thought out points as partisan yet they can’t see past their own spin. Where is the well tuned outrage from the right on this? I love how when it’s their people they can’t muster any response.

    Partisan hack spin, it’s quite special to see.

  237. 237
    The Populist says:

    Oh and here is the video of Bachmann egging the crowd on with some incendiary comments.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDt2LPqM5oc

    Here is a protestor who got into the gallery and chanted. When he was removed the Republicans cheered him. Man, I don’t remember dems cheering Code Pink protesters.

    Earlier Sunday, one protester got into the House gallery and shouted: “Kill the bill. The people don’t want this.” As the man was yelling and ushers tried to escort him out, several Republicans stood up on the House floor and cheered.

    http://www.startribune.com/pol.....aP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUec7PaP3E77K_0c::D3aDhUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

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