Jane says

I know we’ve been trashing Jane Hamsher a lot, but I read Dave Weigel every day and this is bullshit (via Oliver Willis):

Dave Weigel isn’t a journalist, he’s a smear-monger that makes things up and projects his own fantasies onto his stories:

I know, I know, those hippies aren’t going to punch themselves. Well, the rats aren’t going to fuck themselves either. And I suspect that’s what the FDL “whip count” is all about.

I apologize if I seem angry and incoherent here. I used to run with an FDL crowd and what’s happening now makes me ashamed. It’s getting damn near how I feel about the Catholic Church.

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187 replies
  1. 1
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    Since Cole just rates as an ex boy friend, I don’t think our illustrious leader is doing it right. Or, maybe he is, things get mixed up out there in the ethers.

  2. 2
    MikeJ says:

    She gets mad
    Starts to cry
    She takes a swing but
    She cant hit
    She don’t mean no harm
    She just don’t know
    What else to do about it

  3. 3
    beltane says:

    Can FDL now be put into the “blogs we monitor (and mock as needed)” category?

    One big betrayal, but one the progressive blogoshpere was due for at this stage in its development.

  4. 4
    Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist says:

    FDL was my go-to blog for years, until they went full PUMA.

    Now, Yikes.

  5. 5
    gbear says:

    Rant away DougJ!! You’re absolutely correct and, as a bonus, this comment thread should be much more entertaining than anything on TV tonight.

  6. 6
    The Main Gauche of Mild Reason says:

    I’ve been a recovering catholic for quite awhile. It’s a work in progress. Although recent events have made me inclined to disavow any previous association as well.

  7. 7
    Clutch414 says:

    A little bit OT: Rep. Tim Ryan (D-Ohio) is fucking laying the smack down on C-Span about the HCR bill.

  8. 8
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    I used to run with an FDL crowd and what’s happening now makes me ashamed.

    Christ knows it’s all about you.

  9. 9
    Chad S says:

    No wonder Hamsher is so buddy/buddy with Grover Norquist. They’re both useless ideological prehensile tails that do nothing but drag down their own political allies.

  10. 10
    Cat Lady says:

    She reeks of desperation and flailing, which should make you happy. And when the tags are as long as the post, it means you need to calm down.

    I’m enjoying the trashing of the Catholic Church though. More of that please. Ratzinger needs more ratfucking.

  11. 11
    Lev says:

    Hamsher has dropped from stupid/misguided to contemptible in my book. Gee, it’s so hard to believe she’s a tool for the right after she bragged about kickin’ it with G-No.

  12. 12
    El Cid says:

    I’m not sure how much it defines whether or not the basic thrust of the article was in being accurate, but the more relevant link might be this blog update from Weigel.

    Here is the relevant part of my conversation with Serkes. I was recording the rally, so I have audio to back up this transcript.

    SERKES: They’re saying that there’s some serious arm-twisting, and their words were union thuggery.

    ME: Who’s the they?

    SERKES: The progressive side. A progressive source told me that there was serious union thuggery going on this weekend.

    ME: Is this the Firedoglake folks?

    SERKES: It’s Jane. You’re figured it out.

    ME: I’m not new at this.

    SERKES: She said they were after Altmire this weekend. Yeah, because Jane and I last talked Saturday.


    As I said, Serkes no longer stands by her attribution of “union thuggery” to Hamsher, so I will correct that. I apologize to Jane Hamsher for not giving her more time to respond to my email. When Serkes spoke to me, it seemed clear that she was characterizing her conversation with Hamsher and recalled “union thuggery” enough to use it twice and, twice, attribute it that way. But that is not what she meant to say.

    Just being skeptical, I’m not sure what this says about any collusion other than one talked to the other, Hamsher at least described union pressuring on HCR, and Serkes described this as “union thuggery”.

    Maybe there’s a lot more in the rest of the transcript, but so far I don’t see a lot to back up what seemed to be the main implication of the first article. Just sayin’.

  13. 13
    DougJ says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    You’re one to talk.

  14. 14
    dr. bloor says:

    Funny you should mention that. I was over there checking out the comments to one of the pieces Cole linked to earlier today, and I got to wondering about what proportion of the commenters were ratfuckers as opposed to well-meaning lunatics.

  15. 15

    Yes, but is she done with Sergio? :)

  16. 16
    wvng says:

    @Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist

    They were never in my first tier of blogs, but I always looked forward to a visit. I looked forward to seeing Jane on teevee. Now they just make me cringe.

  17. 17
    DougJ says:

    @dr. bloor:

    That’s a very good question. I think most of the commenters are well-meaning lunatics. The front-pagers have to be counted as rat-fuckers at this point.

  18. 18
    demo woman says:

    I still miss Christy and hope she is doing okay.

  19. 19
    mr. whipple says:

    This reminds me of when she called BooMan a ‘troll with a blog’. Boo is so mellow and decent it struck me as akin to kicking a puppy.

  20. 20
    Fern says:

    @demo woman:

    Yes. She was always a bright light there, and I always respected her integrity even when I didn’t agree with her.

  21. 21
    demkat620 says:

    Just Pass the Damn Bill already. God this shit is exhausting. We didn’t take this long to invade and thoroughly fuck up Iraq, fer chrissakes.

  22. 22
    John Cole says:

    I don’t think there is any way in hell she is knowingly working for the Republicans. I think she is just so frustrated with the status quo and the Dems that she is flailing.

    I’m not giving up. She still has a lot of good ideas, like the student loan stuff the other day, and I have no doubt that if we did what Jon Walker at FDL wanted done, it would be better than the current HCR bill we are getting. I’d like a public option.

    For me, it is all about the tactics. Working with the firebaggers is like going to war with a buddy who throws grenades in your own damned foxhole and then yells at you for not understanding “the plan.” And then you never know if they are just going to up and shoot you in the back because you were insufficiently motivated or didn’t do exactly the right thing (see Woolsey, etc.)

  23. 23
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @DougJ: Yeah, me being the one begging you ex-Republicans to stop with the internecine war on the left.

    If you fuckers had fought Republicans and blue dog Democrats like ya do Jane, we might have more than a mediocre fucking health care bill.

    Dumbass.

  24. 24
    eemom says:

    fer chrissake this woman has NEVER been about ANYTHING but self-promotion and vicious attacks on anyone who got in her way. Examples are legion.

    It’s just that what she is doing now, targeting as it does 30 million uninsured people, puts her right up there with the republicans in terms of pure fucking evil.

  25. 25
    beltane says:

    @Cat Lady: Ratzinger needs to step down. The scary thing is that there probably isn’t a single member of the College of Cardinals who is untainted by what is really a global scandal.

  26. 26
    Comrade Kevin says:

    Hamsher is a thin-skinned bully.

  27. 27
    Kristine says:

    @demo woman:

    What’s wrong with Christy?

  28. 28
    eemom says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    and why don’t YOU go fuck yourself, you useless name-calling asshole. Go sign up over at FDL if you love yer Janie so much. You’ll have plenty of company over there in your self-proclaimed fuckheaddom.

  29. 29
    Leelee for Obama says:

    @beltane: I say let the papacy lay fallow a few decades. That ought to get rid of most of the worst ones, dontcha think?

  30. 30
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @demo woman: I’ve been wondering lately if things would be quite so mad over there if Christy was still posting. I stopped reading FDL even before she left, mostly because the physical lay-out and the sheer number of posts and posters made it so hard to read (for me, personal preference). I had no idea FDL was a PUMA blog. Like you, I hope she’s well. I used to love the birding posts on Sunday mornings.

    @mr. whipple:

    This reminds me of when she called BooMan a ‘troll with a blog’

    Wow. that’s just nuts. I doubt BooMan was wounded by the kick.

    I just saw Anthony Weiner say this bill isn’t perfect, but it’s a hell of a lot better than the status quo. I wonder if “we” have a primary candidate yet.

  31. 31
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @eemom: Nobody would pay any attention to him over there.

  32. 32
    DougJ says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Ex-Republican? I’ve voted Democratic in every election since I’ve been eligible to vote, given money to Democratic candidates every cycle since I got out of school, and gone door-to-door for Democratic candidates the last three election cycles.

    I’ve given money to various FDL fund-raisers, too. That’s why I’m pissed.

  33. 33
    Cat Lady says:

    @beltane:

    Na ga happen. He’s going to barricade himself in with his favorite catamites and communicate in smoke signals before he allows any secular force to question his Authoritah! He’s a boyfucking Palpatine.

    But let’s talk about Jane. SHE’s messed up.

  34. 34
    Zipperupus says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I have lurked here for nearly a year, and nary a day goes by where the authors on this site don’t kick a blue dog in the teeth.

    And you never post in those threads. Yet whenever Sweet Jane is in the crosshairs of criticism, you never fail to post the same tired crap.

    Jane got busted. Which is ironic given the support the unions just gave to her Accountability Now candidate. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Sweet Jane’s a hypocrite.

  35. 35
    gwangung says:

    For me, it is all about the tactics.

    I think you’ve been fairly consistent about that. And on another thread, I was wondering openly why many progressives aren’t adopting some of the tactics used by unions (who, it seems to me, got more of what they wanted out of this process than many other groups).

  36. 36
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    @John Cole: Yes, it is about the tactics, and Jane has managed to get her mug on the teevee fairly regular and get labeled a relevant progressive warrior. That is the problem, and I can’t help wonder if the rash of MSM Rahm nonsense didn’t begin in her fever swamp and give license to our bored wanker MSM pundititry to feed us that drivel. This is why I oppose and criticize and mock Jane Hamsher, otherwise she is just another blog blatherer, like the rest of us.

  37. 37
    jakethesnake says:

    About the whip count, she’s taking a stand for the public option, which is more than I can say about most progressive blogs. Passing this bill is a win for insurance and pharma, not progressives. Standing behind Obama and the dems at this point is really starting to sound like the people who still loved Bush during his second term. Hopefully the people who agree with this blog that FDL is some kind of rat screwing other progressives over remember, John supported GWB for years before he finally figured it out. I just coined a new phrase, and sickness, “Obama Cheerleader Syndrome.” The treatment is 5 days without blogging.

  38. 38
    mr. whipple says:

    I doubt BooMan was wounded by the kick.

    No, but just the same it wasn’t necessary.

  39. 39
    El Cid says:

    Just, factually speaking, has Hamsher been “busted” on this particular issue? Seems like the empirical evidence is a bit light at this stage. Maybe more is on the way.

  40. 40
    fourlegsgood says:

    I’ve had enough of Jane. She forgets that HCR is not about her. She’s so invested in being a player in DC, she forgets that politics, in the end, is about governance. She’s willing to see thousands of people continue to die and/or go bankrupt – that’s just wrong.

  41. 41
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    @Zipperupus:

    Fuckhead is just very concerned that John Cole is ruining his own blog and is on a personal jihad of sorts to prevent that with a neverending parody of someone beating his empty head against the proverbial brick wall. It’s only coincidence, I am sure, that Jane’s portrait hangs on that particular brick wall.

  42. 42
    Rhoda says:

    @John Cole: I think the audio from Weigl’s interview pretty much puts paid to the idea she isn’t working with Republicans. She may rationalize that she’s working for progressive goals and these Republicans are the patsies she’s using. But that’s bullshit and I think she knows it’s bullshit b/c she’s not a stupid woman.

    She wanted to put her name in history and make a place at the table for FDL. She wanted to point to a watered down public option that was worth less than a national exchange and say I did that.

    That’s not bad if it stopped there; but when she lost the inside game (because she’s not an insider and that’s a good thing IMO) she blew her gasket and isn’t working w/a full deck any longer IMO.

    Either way, she’s a disgrace. I’m sick and tired of the drama and I’m comforted by the fact that she has a track record of failure. That’s good to know since she’s working on the dark side now, IMO.

  43. 43
    me says:

    Standing behind Obama and the dems at this point is really starting to sound like the people who still loved Bush during his second term.

    Yeah, a lot of people will be able to get health insurance with this bill, but fuck ’em because it doesn’t live up to Jane’s high standards.

  44. 44
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Of course the Blue Dogs and the dummies and the cowards are the problem. But Hamsher makes herself eminently mockable with this kind of stuff. I’m reminded of the PUMA who plaintively mewled, when reading that Obama had a 90% approval rating among Dems, “Are we really that small a sliver of the party?”

  45. 45
    wasa1 says:

    FDL has never been a PUMA blog. They may rag on Obama now, but during the primaries, they never felt the love for Clinton.

  46. 46
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Zipperupus: Sweet Jane doesn’t even fucking merit the thrice weekly thrashings she receives here.

    So why the obsession?

    Hell, I’ve never even read Jane except when she was over here bitchslapping John into the ground. I read EmptyWheel for like a week once when she was exposing the so-called expert lobbying for health care and being paid for it simultaneously by the Obama administration. And whenever someone links to Tbogg, I check him out.

    But you fuckers are seriously deranged. I mean, it should be obvious you’ve all got a few loose screws when yer begging John to post another pic of his cat THAT LOOKS THE SAME IN EVERY FUCKING PICTURE.

  47. 47
    John Cole says:

    @El Cid: Sounds to me that Serkes got caught lying.

  48. 48
    fourlegsgood says:

    @El Cid:

    She’s been tweeting about WH strong arm tactics etc. etc. for days. I’m siding with Dave on this one.

  49. 49
    fourlegsgood says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    so why are you here? take a hike.

  50. 50
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @eemom: Oh fuck you. No one was even talking to you before I reached into the gutter and pulled you out. I shoulda left you there, obviously, but I’m a good person.

  51. 51
    Mnemosyne says:

    A song for JSF and our other visiting firebaggers.

    (It’s at Lala where apparently you only get one free listen.)

  52. 52
    slag says:

    @John Cole:

    I don’t think there is any way in hell she is knowingly working for the Republicans. I think she is just so frustrated with the status quo and the Dems that she is flailing.

    This makes sense. But I keep expecting to see some walking back. Some pivot that would enable her to start supporting whatever progressive legislation we might achieve (mild, though it may be) and bring her crew along with her. Unfortunately, every glimpse I see of this ends up being a mirage. So, at this point, I don’t know what they’re doing over there. Besides making enemies, that is.

  53. 53
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    And the fuckhead self destructo continues on it’s long and winding road.

  54. 54
    DougJ says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Dude, I gave money to her fucking blog several times. For two years, I wrote for a blog that modeled itself after FDL. I went door-to-door for an FDL candidate (Eric Massa) two election cycles.

    Can’t I be pissed at her now?

  55. 55
    slag says:

    @jakethesnake:

    Passing this bill is a win for insurance and pharma, not progressives. Standing behind Obama and the dems at this point is really starting to sound like the people who still loved Bush during his second term.

    Do you honestly consider this a persuasive argument? Seriously?

  56. 56
    NobodySpecial says:

    Whatever kind of idiot, useful or otherwise, Hamsher is, he gave her exactly 16 minutes to reply before posting?

    Wow, no ambush jurnalism there. Misspelling intentional.

  57. 57
    gwangung says:

    @fourlegsgood:

    She’s been tweeting about WH strong arm tactics etc. etc. for days.

    My first thought was that the majority of liberal types were thinking, “It’s about time.”

  58. 58
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @DougJ: JSF just craves attention, and, contrary to his statement above, he pulls people down into his gutter.

  59. 59
    El Cid says:

    @fourlegsgood: I’m not siding with anybody.

    The audio in no way supports a larger claim that Hamsher is in some systematic way working with Serkes or the TeaTards — though maybe she is.

    I’ve just listened to the audio. Serkes is, first of all, emphasizing that Jane and ‘the progressives’ think that there has been “arm twisting” and that “the votes are very close” and that “Pelosi is very close” to passing the bill.

    No shit. Hamsher or anyone else might be happy or pissed by that summation, but that is a description of current events, not a declaration of discovered alliances.

    Did I miss something or hear something wrong? I tried it twice.

    I’m not claiming that Hamsher et al aren’t working with Serkes et al. But the evidence presented in no way supports that allegation. Unless the fact that they have had conversations and sharing of (apparently obvious) information is to be taken as that evidence.

    I don’t even feel like I have a particular dog in this fight — it’s just that it seemed like it was being discussed as a huge and significant charge so I went looking for the primary evidence, and I haven’t found it.

  60. 60
    Rosali says:

    FDL has Dennis Kucinich as a definite No on its “whip count”. On Countdown tonight, they said that sources had Dennis as a Yes. Dennis will have a press conf tomorrow morning. I wouldn’t put money on the FDL whip count. We’ll just have to wait and see

  61. 61
    Sly says:

    DENNIS KUCINICH IS WORSE THAN BUSH HE SOLD US OUT!!

  62. 62
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @gwangung: That’s certainly what I was thinking. Too bad they weren’t doing it months ago.

  63. 63
    Nellcote says:

    I can’t remember what the really really final straw was. Either hooking up with Grover or primarying Beloved Socia1ist Bernie Sanders for being insufficiently progressive.

  64. 64
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Comrade Kevin: Hey Prissy, you can pie me any fucking time. No one is making you police me.

  65. 65
    Redshift says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, I’ve wondered the same thing about the role of Christy’s absence. And I went through much the same pattern of involvement that you did.

    However, I disagree with the PUMA label, though perhaps people are using it as a more stylistic term rather than referring to the pro-Hillary anti-Obama diehards. Back before the decline of FDL there was plenty of PUMA-mocking, and Jane was the one who shot the Harriet Christian “unqualified black male” video and uploaded it to YouTube. I know; I was at the Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting when it happened; though I did not witness the incident itself, I ran into Jane just afterwards when she was gleefully uploading.

  66. 66
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    @Nellcote:

    Either hooking up with Grover

    moafs

  67. 67
    gbear says:

    @jakethesnake:

    Congrats, you managed to get all the way thru that healthcare rant without once mentioning uninsured people.

  68. 68
  69. 69
    Zipperupus says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: She’s obsessed over because of the Norquist adventure. I know something inside me snapped when that happened, because anyone on the left worth their salt should know that Grover is not merely scum, but evil. Evil with a pedigree that reaches back to the Contras.

    And her excuse was that the right would somehow see that the left had certain bedrock principles in common with them… And this couls build into some sort of populist coalition. Since that point, she wandered off the sane reservation and has taken a chunk of the netroots with her.

    And, finally, she has her hand on the ActBlue machine.

    But–your last line was funny. I am not here for the cats. Internet kitty pr0n is not a subculture I belong to.

  70. 70
    unabogie says:

    GOS has a diary on Dennis Kucinich right now…

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....he-HC-BILL!!!!

  71. 71
    Jody says:

    Well said John.

    Tbogg is still awesome as always, of course.

  72. 72
    Batocchio says:

    @El Cid:

    Thanks. Weigel comes off looking better than Hamsher in this back and forth, IMO. Maybe a few deep breaths and we can move on… There are times it feels like the primary insanity all over again.

  73. 73
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    @FreeAtLast:

    I keep telling people that on this legislation, when the witching hour comes for a final vote, very few dems will say nay. Too much dem wattage behind this particular issue. And I will go out on a limb and bet one wooden nickel that nutbug Stupak will vote yea too.

    The only ones that will vote no will be those BD’s in historic red districts, and not all of them.

  74. 74
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @FreeAtLast: I’m not a nice person. I feel like Kent Dorfman about to unleash my 10,000 marbles of doom as I anticipate the keening, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

  75. 75
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: It’s funny how easy it is to push your buttons.

  76. 76
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Leelee for Obama: Because I forgot to say this in the earlier thread — Congratulations & best wishes on your new job, LeeLee!

  77. 77
    eemom says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Right, you were my fucking hero for responding to my very first post on this blog.

    Were it not for you “plucking me from the gutter”, I’m sure I’d be languishing there to this day.

    You are not only an asshole, you are a delusional self-aggrandizing asshole. Another thing you have in common with Lady Jane.

  78. 78
    colby says:

    “Passing this bill is a win for insurance and pharma, not progressives.”

    And if my fellow progressives actually give even a shit about that, I’m changing sides. This isn’t about one group or another getting “a win”, this is about covering more uninsured Americans, making health care more secure for insured Americans, and reducing our insatiable long-term debts. This bill does all of that.

    Actually, no, I’m not changing sides, but I’m gonna tell them they should. ‘Cause honestly, if you’re lined up on the other side of the field from Bernie Sanders, you just have no claim on the venerated P word…

  79. 79
    Davis X. Machina says:

    Semi-OT, but the prospect of Obi-Wan-Kucinich coming out in support of the Dark Side tomorrow (as per Fineman on MSNBC, reported by DailyKos) has split the faithful over at DenniskucinichUnderground.com.

  80. 80
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Zipperupus:

    She’s obsessed over because of the Norquist adventure.

    So??? Most of the ex-Republicans here worked FOR YEARS with Norquist to enact his ENTIRE agenda.

    Color me unimpressed with their born-again zealotry.

  81. 81
    Rhoda says:

    @El Cid: Jane wrote the following:

    I know Katherine, we were on MSNBC together and we’ve spoken about working on the pot legalization measure in California in the future. She tells me that when Weigel approached her and asked her who her “source” was, she didn’t say. He said “It’s Jane Hamsher, isn’t it…I’ve been around.” According to Katherine, she didn’t respond.

    Given that Weigel’s basic facts are all correct, I don’t see where his facts aren’t backed up. These two women met, they’ve got a connection together from Norquist, they are working on something else together, and she organized this tea party protest. And clearly, the woman said union thuggery and it was attributed to Hamsher. That was the woman’s mistake not Weigel.

    The source, she said, was Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake, a liberal blog that’s also paid for polls in some Democratic districts asking voters whether “aye” votes on health care reform would help or hurt their re-election chances. “She said that they’re very close — [liberal blogs] are better at keeping a tab on it. And I think Pelosi’s very close. I think we’re right at the edge.”

    All of the above is correct, too.

    It’s why I have major issues w/Hamsher.

  82. 82
    Tom65 says:

    IMO, Jane jumped the shark with the Lamont campaign. Her petulance was obvious then.

  83. 83
    Texas Dem says:

    Hamsher is a fanatic, and like most fanatics she can no longer see the difference between friends who are trying to lay a foundation that we can build upon, and enemies who are just using her to destroy the political opposition. I’m suddenly reminded of this scene from the movie “Fail Safe”:

    Prof. Groeteschele: Excuse me. Every minute we wait works against us. Now, Mr. Secretary, now is when we must send in a first strike.

    Gen. Stark: We don’t go in for sneak attacks. We had that done to us at Pearl Harbor.

    Prof. Groeteschele: And the Japanese were right to do it. From their point of view, we were their mortal enemy. As long as we existed, we were a deadly threat to them. Their only mistake was that they failed to finish us at the start, and they paid for that mistake at Hiroshima.

    Gen. Stark: You’re talking about a different kind of war.

    Prof. Groeteschele: Exactly. This time, *we* can finish what *we* start. And if we act now, right now, our casualties will be minimal.

    Brigadier General Warren A. Black: You know what you’re saying?

    Prof. Groeteschele: Do you believe that Communism is not our mortal enemy?

    Brigadier General Warren A. Black: You’re justifying murder.

    Prof. Groeteschele: Yes, to keep from being murdered.

    Brigadier General Warren A. Black: In the name of what? To preserve what? Even if we do survive, what are we? Better than what we say they are? What gives us the right to live, then? What makes us worth surviving, Groeteschele? That we are ruthless enough to strike first?

    Prof. Groeteschele: Yes! Those who can survive are the only ones worth surviving.

    Brigadier General Warren A. Black: Fighting for your life isn’t the same as murder.

    Prof. Groeteschele: Where do you draw the line once you know what the enemy is? How long would the Nazis have kept it up, General, if every Jew they came after had met them with a gun in his hand? But I learned from them, General Black. Oh, I learned.

    Brigadier General Warren A. Black: You learned too well, Professor. You learned so well that now there’s no difference between you and what you want to kill.

  84. 84
    El Cid says:

    @Batocchio: Tell you the truth, from this particular report, I don’t really have much of anything to conclude about Hamsher, other than to note that she does talk to Serkes. Weigel’s intuitions might be right, but reading and listening to the evidence, I can’t say any more than what already had been public knowledge about Hamsher’s activities.

  85. 85
    Rick Taylor says:

    As someone coming into the middle of all this not sure what’s going on, but David Weigel comes off badly here. He attributed an incendiary quote to Jane, and had to retract it when his source said he’d misinterpreted her. That’s pretty bad. Perhaps Jane could have been more diplomatic in her reply, but I could see why she’d be angry if someone was attributing words in quotation marks to her that she never said.

  86. 86
    Tim F. says:

    We should leave FDL alone. This thing is so bloody, goddamn close that we need to stay as positive as we possibly can. Jane is having a bad enough day as it is.

  87. 87
    MikeJ says:

    Didn’t the firebaggers already call the HCR bill fascist? After that is anyone surprised by the use of the phrase “union thuggery”?

  88. 88
  89. 89
    El Cid says:

    @Rhoda: I’m not disagreeing that there might be strong reasons to disagree with Hamsher, it’s just that most of the justification is from other contextual evidence, not so much this particular report. And of course I wouldn’t suggest Weigel in any way erred in reporting Serkes’ comment which suggested Hamsher used the term “union thuggery”, although given Serkes’ post-interview retraction or redefinition, there’s no particular evidence I know of (not being a Hamsher expert) to suggest that this isn’t a term more from Serkes than Hamsher.

    Having a bit of empirical skepticism doesn’t make one a partisan of any particular side.

  90. 90
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I’ve been wondering lately if things would be quite so mad over there if Christy was still posting. I stopped reading FDL even before she left, mostly because the physical lay-out and the sheer number of posts and posters made it so hard to read (for me, personal preference).

    That makes two of us, then. Christy was the reason I started reading FDL, and the noise-to-signal ratio of FDL is why I stopped commenting on TBogg when he became part of the Borg (still read him religiously, but I can no longer enjoy his commentors). I understand the business reasons behind aggregating, and even why the front page looks like a quilt designed by a neon worker on a meth binge, but it’s just more JANGLY than I care to cope with.

  91. 91
    dan robinson says:

    Gee, it sucks to get you heart broke, don’t it?

    There are few totally sane voices on the internet, present company included. Every time some of the people on this site start talking about pro sports, I sign off, because that shit is just fucking pathetic.

  92. 92
    Rick Taylor says:

    Ok, I’ve found the link and the transcript people were pointing to above. From the transcript, what Weigel said seems reasonable. He should have given Jane more time to reply, but he admits that and apologizes for it.
    __
    Hoo boy. Overall I just feel awful trying to pick apart this internecine warfare on the left.

  93. 93
    bayville says:

    “Donate Jane” is way out of line here. It would seem she should be mad at Sterges instead of Weigel. She’s killing the messenger

    It’s like Hamsher has turned into a disheartened groupie the last six months. She’s finally learned Pols are Pols, and Progressive Pols will stick a knife in your back faster than most…the latest example being Donna Edwards.

    Plus, I’m sure her Donate Here business model has taken a hit the last year or so and the stress is beginning to show.

  94. 94
    Midnight Marauder says:

    @jakethesnake:

    About the whip count, she’s taking a stand for the public option, which is more than I can say about most progressive blogs.

    Cool. We’ll be over here taking a stand to provide millions of uninsured Americans with health insurance. Don’t mind us.

    @John Cole:

    For me, it is all about the tactics. Working with the firebaggers is like going to war with a buddy who throws grenades in your own damned foxhole and then yells at you for not understanding “the plan.” And then you never know if they are just going to up and shoot you in the back because you were insufficiently motivated or didn’t do exactly the right thing (see Woolsey, etc.)

    I get this argument. I really do. But the fact of the matter is that Jane has set fire to pretty much every bridge within a 500 mile radius of her over the past year. She’s behaved in such a loathsome and repulsive manner, that I ask you: Who in the world is ever going to want to work with this woman again? I mean, seriously? Why would you ever get in the trenches for a down and dirty fight if you knew that this is what was waiting for you down the home stretch?

    There is nothing respectable about this woman anymore, and I’m sure someone will come along to say that I’m being far too generous by assuming that there was anything respectable about her to even begin with. And I probably wouldn’t disagree with them.

    All I know is that the day they were out to tar and feather Bernie Sanders with a primary was the day I knew that Hamsher was past the point of no return.

    @Sly:

    DENNIS KUCINICH IS WORSE THAN BUSH HE SOLD US OUT!!

    Ballgame, ladies and gents.

    +3

  95. 95
    dan robinson says:

    I don’t know Rick Taylor @85 but this just sounds so fucking junior high.

    As someone coming into the middle of all this not sure what’s going on, but David Weigel comes off badly here. He attributed an incendiary quote to Jane, and had to retract it when his source said he’d misinterpreted her. That’s pretty bad. Perhaps Jane could have been more diplomatic in her reply, but I could see why she’d be angry if someone was attributing words in quotation marks to her that she never said.

    Think about it folks. There is shit that matters in the world, but did Davey hurt Janey’s feelings? I don’t know and it don’t fucking matter.

    This isn’t a slam on Rick Taylor, who ever he is, but there is too much of this shit on the web. I would be happy if it was all on the wingnut side, not ours.

  96. 96
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Cat Lady:

    But let’s talk about Jane. SHE’s messed up.

    Well, Jane Hamsher and FDL are very much in “our” neighborhood — not-right-wing blogs whose success or failure will be taken as reflecting on the rest of us. Pope Palpatine and his enforcers are important to many in the BJ community, especially those who grew up “in the Church”, but (a) what we say about him isn’t going to influence the Vatican and (b) what he does isn’t going to be taken as representing our standards / opinions / practices.

  97. 97
    Will says:

    Hamsher is back on HuffPo claiming that Obama wants to primary pro-choicers over their health care vote. As if 90% of the Dem vote against health care isn’t going to be composed of pro-lifers. She is the biggest rat-fucking hypocrite I have ever seen in my life.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....01295.html

  98. 98
    williamc says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    JSF that “cat THAT LOOKS THE SAME IN EVERY FUCKING PICTURE” line was hilarious.

    Because its true.

    I never know if you are being serious or sarcastic with your comments, but either way, I usually agree with you here because I never know if I’m being serious and sarcastic in real life and I think you make good points while making me laugh at your put-downs of the other commenters. This is gonna be a crazy week if tempers are this high on TUESDAY.

    But, in everyone’s defense here, and if I can wax on for a bit, everyone here is most likely deranged. Aren’t we all at this point? We’ve been having the same circular arguments over and over again for the past year over health insurance (and as an administrative manager for a small business, I can tell you, health insurance fucking sucks) and our seemingly normal Republican neighbors have gone insane and disconnected themselves from reality during this same period (Birthers, Tenthers, Nullification, wtf?). It takes a toll on the psyche to argue with crazy people every day when they don’t concede to reality ever (see Dr. Maddow interviewing JD Hayworth last night for a perfect example) while you are being told by the mass media through their hiring practices (the Trike Force on CNN everyday now? really?) that your point of view, the elected majority point of view, should compromise your rational/reasoned pov to meet halfway with insane torture-lovers who two years ago were the last hangers-on to the most unpopular U.S. President in the modern age (what, maybe we should only waterboard suspected terrorists 40-some odd times a month?).

    It’d make me deranged too (living among so many Republicans here in the South helps with feeling deranged). So deranged that even though I was definitely a kill-the-biller/manic-progressive when the Senate Bill dropped, I’m pushing to Pass.the.damn.bill.

    @colby: I have to disagree with you here man. Its time to get past this whole ‘being a lefty free-spirit/being above it all crap’. This is about teams:our team supposedly wants to help the poor and middle class try to make it in this market hellhole, and their team wants every business to exploits its workers enough so that IT can beat the market, plain as that. Its time to help your team win. The persuasion time is done, its this bill or nothing, and if we get nothing, they win. They can’t win this one, we have to, plain as that.

  99. 99
    mcc says:

    When you have nothing else left you go with screaming and desperation. What we see right now, both from the republicans and fdl, is the sloppiness of someone who’s already lost.

    As far as why Jane’s important , to my mind it’s for the same reason that I don’t think she should be considered redeemable– she lied. For weeks her site transmitted the rankest tea party lies about the health care reform bill– almost all of which, amusingly, applied just as much against the house bill her site claimed to support– and those lies carried all over the Internet. It’s not really my business to tell someone what to suppOrt or not support– I can maybe have an opinion, and if you’re an elected official I can try to make there be consequences for you, but I can’t really tell you what to think. But if you’re going to lie? Then it is my business. And if you’re an information source like fdl, and you not just lie but lie in a destructive way that harms things you claim to support, then I can’t trust you ever again as a source of either information or activism.

  100. 100
    tomvox1 says:

    Wait’ll Jane hears Kucinich is going to vote Yes. She’ll have an apoplexy aneurysm. Looking forward to that myself.

  101. 101
    Redshift says:

    Yeah, the thing that finally drove me away was when the general line of argument shifted from strongly advocating for progressive causes with a certain amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth if they didn’t succeed, to declaring that if someone didn’t think a cause was politically feasible or didn’t agree it was a top priority, it must be that the person had been secretly working against them all along, whatever their record. It started with psychoanalyzing Obama, (sort of the dark side of 11-dimensional chess) and spread to others.

    In politics, you win some and you lose some. Understanding who your friends are is useful and productive; building up enemies lists just rots the soul.

  102. 102
    Midnight Marauder says:

    FYWP and your moderation. Bah, I say! BAH!

    @John Cole:

    For me, it is all about the tactics. Working with the firebaggers is like going to war with a buddy who throws grenades in your own damned foxhole and then yells at you for not understanding “the plan.” And then you never know if they are just going to up and shoot you in the back because you were insufficiently motivated or didn’t do exactly the right thing (see Woolsey, etc.)

    I get this argument. I really do. But the fact of the matter is that Jane has set fire to pretty much every bridge within a 500 mile radius of her over the past year. She’s behaved in such a loathsome and repulsive manner, that I ask you: Who in the world is ever going to want to work with this woman again? I mean, seriously? Why would you ever get in the trenches for a down and dirty fight if you knew that this is what was waiting for you down the home stretch?

    There is nothing respectable about this woman anymore, and I’m sure someone will come along to say that I’m being far too generous by assuming that there was anything respectable about her to even begin with. And I probably wouldn’t disagree with them.

    All I know is that the day they were out to tar and feather Bernie Sanders with a primary was the day I knew that Hamsher was past the point of no return.

    @Sly:

    DENNIS KUCINICH IS WORSE THAN BUSH HE SOLD US OUT!!

    Ballgame, ladies and gents.

    +3

  103. 103
    Texas Dem says:

    Wait’ll Jane hears Kucinich is going to vote Yes. She’ll have an apoplexy aneurysm. Looking forward to that myself.

    Are we sure he’s going to change his mind? I’m assuming he will, because it would be awfully stupid to call a press conference to simply announce that you flew with Obama on Air Force One, heard a woman dying of cancer beg you to change your mind, and you still weren’t going to budge. But Kucinich is so flaky I really have no idea what in the hell he’s going to do. If he comes out more strongly against the bill and thoroughly trashes it, he could probably kill it all by himself.

  104. 104
    Corner Stone says:

    @dan robinson:

    Think about it folks. There is shit that matters in the world, but did Davey hurt Janey’s feelings? I don’t know and it don’t fucking matter.

    Seriously? You are a fucking clown.

  105. 105
    Jon H says:

    @jakethesnake: “About the whip count, she’s taking a stand for the public option, which is more than I can say about most progressive blogs.”

    Christ, that ship sailed 6-12 months ago. Getting it in now is virtually impossible and only an ideological shithead would can the whole thing now for lack of a public option.

    Try to get in touch with reality. You and Hamsher would apparently prefer the status quo and the warm feeling of having won a pyrrhic victory.

    We need an improved healthcare system, not a bunch of arrogant, self-satisfied hippie martyrs.

  106. 106
    Corner Stone says:

    @williamc:

    But, in everyone’s defense here, and if I can wax on for a bit, everyone here is most likely deranged. Aren’t we all at this point?

    Ah, the venerated “we’re all guilty” post. Thanks.

  107. 107
    burnspbesq says:

    After Jane ran off TRex, it was all downhill.

  108. 108
    Texas Dem says:

    But the fact of the matter is that Jane has set fire to pretty much every bridge within a 500 mile radius of her over the past year. She’s behaved in such a loathsome and repulsive manner, that I ask you: Who in the world is ever going to want to work with this woman again? I mean, seriously? Why would you ever get in the trenches for a down and dirty fight if you knew that this is what was waiting for you down the home stretch?

    Like someone once said about Olbermann’s departure from ESPN, she hasn’t just burned her bridges, she’s napalmed them.

  109. 109
    Corner Stone says:

    @El Cid:

    Having a bit of empirical skepticism doesn’t make one a partisan of any particular side.

    Sorry, but in that regard you are wrong. You’re not feeding the red meat meme in this thread. Therefore, you suck.

  110. 110
    Corner Stone says:

    @Texas Dem:

    she’s napalmed them.

    Sexual napalm? Because I could really get on board with that.

  111. 111
    Dr. Morpheus says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Christ knows it’s all about you.

    When it’s really all about you Fuckhead, right?

  112. 112
    mcc says:

    @Texas Dem: Howard Fineman claims he has advance knowledge of the contents of Kucinich’s announcement and that he will support the bill under protest

    So it comes down to do you trust Howard Fineman

    I don’t think I trust Howard Fineman a lot

  113. 113
    bystander says:

    While y’all are deciding which league on the “left” you’re playing for, maybe y’all want to figure out what “position” you’re playing as well.

  114. 114
    Rick Taylor says:

    I don’t know Rick Taylor @85 but this just sounds so fucking junior high.

    __
    Yes it does.

  115. 115
    El Cid says:

    @Corner Stone:
    Oh, ooops. Um, uh, kill them all?!

  116. 116
    williamc says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I felt like building a bridge at the end of a burned thread. But even if Weigel had reported it wrong (which he didn’t do, the source lied) why’d crazy bitch have to attack him in such a low way?

    BTW, she is a crazy bitch, and anyone who works with Norquist after knowing who and what he is, while claiming to be a leftist, all while they argue against giving 30 million more American access to healthcare, is also a crazy bitch.

    I think what we’re all guilty of though is needing more Sexual Napalm. What flavors does that come in? Original, Strawberry, Moose (for the Alaska market)?

  117. 117
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Christ, that ship sailed 6-12 months ago. Getting it in now is virtually impossible and only an ideological shithead would can the whole thing now for lack of a public option.

    Hear, hear. I almost screamed at the TV when Rachel Maddow started bringing it up last night. I’m for it. I think over a two to three year time span it’s a real possibility. But can we fucking finish this one thing, coax the timid little Dem bunnies like MacMahon and Acuri over the finish line, before we start the next fight? These people are afraid of their own shadows, of Republican shadows, of David Broder’s shadow and Newt Gingrich’s. They will run and hide if we make any noises or sudden gestures

  118. 118
    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal) says:

    Jane’s Addiction has become Jane’s Infection.

    @eemom:

    He can’t do that because he would have to change his name to Just Another Fuckhead.

  119. 119
    Texas Dem says:

    BTW, she is a crazy bitch, and anyone who works with Norquist after knowing who and what he is, while claiming to be a leftist, is also a crazy bitch.

    Think Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction, with Obama playing the Michael Douglas role. “I’m not going to be just ignored…..” Uh oh. Sleep with one eye open, my friends.

  120. 120

    […] DougJ pointed out that that Jane Hamsher attacked Dave Weigel over a post Weigel wrote about Hamsher making common cause with Tea Party activists to kill HCR. […]

  121. 121
    John Cole says:

    @williamc: There is no reason to be calling Jane a bitch. There is no reason to start acting like sexist assholes. Unacceptable, and all of you should knock it off.

  122. 122
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Dr. Morpheus:

    When it’s really all about you Fuckhead, right?

    Well, ya know, I am kind of a big deal. And I’ve accomplished that by being myself and saying what I think regardless of the consequences, the norms laid out by group think or outrage from the grannies and trannies set.

    Imagine if I was in here fellating each other along with the rest of you pathetic losers, recycling the same same tired rants about the villian of the day, gushing about how awesome Barack and Michelle look as a couple, or trying to get laid by someone on the other side of the country.

    I’d be The New Internet Jesus.

    But I’m just some fuckhead, as advertised. Pie me when you’ve had enough.

    ETA: I coulda also mentioned sleeping all day and staying up all night stoned out of my head but I didn’t know DougL was awake yet.

  123. 123
    scav says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: giggle. yur funny. inherently á la mode.

  124. 124
    anon says:

    Don’t read Jane. Don’t like her. Totally understandable reaction from her about Weigel’s post.

  125. 125
    mcc says:

    I’m bothered by people using gender charged language to attack Jane Hamsher

    Whatever you think of Hamsher as a person the other 3.4 billion women on the planet deserve better than to have their gender transmuted into a component of a put-down

    And while I’m at it ORLY TAITZ AND ANNE COULTER ARE NOT TRANSGENDERED. THEY’RE JUST OLDER WOMEN MAKING QUESTIONABLE MAKEUP CHOICES

  126. 126
    NobodySpecial says:

    @John Cole:

    You raised them to punch hippies. Don’t get mad now that they’re using closed fists.

    :P

  127. 127
    Corner Stone says:

    @williamc:

    I think what we’re all guilty of though is needing more Sexual Napalm. What flavors does that come in? Original, Strawberry, Moose (for the Alaska market)?

    IMO, your characterization of Jane says more about you than it does anything else.

  128. 128
    williamc says:

    @John Cole:

    Ii is your blog man, and out of respect, I will call her “crazy lady”, but in defense of crazy bitches, it is a genderless term, when people are acting like crazy bitches. Get with the lingo man (or does someone need a South Park lesson?)

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    New Internet Jesus.

    I’ll always think of you whenever I’m stoned and I see the First Ladies biceps now.

  129. 129
    Corner Stone says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    You raised them to punch hippies. Don’t get mad now that they’re using closed fists.

    This shit kills me.
    These are the results of Cole’s relentless efforts. Once in a while they don’t meet his standards? Fudge.

  130. 130
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    or trying to get laid by someone on the other side of the country.

    Some day this will be possible. We have our best scientists working on it. I hear.

  131. 131
    Corner Stone says:

    @scav:

    inherently á la mode.

    He brings his own ice cream?

  132. 132
    Jon H says:

    @anon: “Don’t read Jane. Don’t like her. Totally understandable reaction from her about Weigel’s post.”

    Too bad Weigel has, and posted, the audio.

    Jane really does belong with the crazy anti-vax woo-meisters at HuffPo.

  133. 133
    Corner Stone says:

    @El Cid: The Cavuto Mark or Interrobang will be your undoing here good sir.
    Try going clean for once in your life.

    “Kill them all!”

  134. 134
    mcc says:

    @NobodySpecial: You know what? Fuck you. You’re not a hippie. Jane isn’t a hippie. I’m a fucking hippie, and the fucking hippies are the ones trying to punch you for opposing health care reform and protecting insurers from the first real government intrusion into their market ever.

    Fucking people wearing business casual telling my socialist, drag-queen ass that I can’t criticize them because they’re “hippies”. I’m sick of it.

  135. 135
    hamletta says:

    @mcc: I trust Howard Fineman to get his basic facts straight on something like this.

    Sure, he’s a Beltway Kool Kid, so his interpretation of said facts is fatuous bullshit, but that’s beside the point on a story like this. Kucinich will announce he is or isn’t going to vote for the bill, and Fineman is nothing if not well-connected.

  136. 136
    mcc says:

    @NobodySpecial: You know what? Fuck you. You’re not a hippie. Jane isn’t a hippie. I’m a fucking hippie, and the fucking hippies are the ones trying to “punch you” (read: say mean things about you on the internet) because you’re opposing health care reform and protecting insurers from the first real government intrusion into their market ever.

    Fucking people wearing business casual telling my soc – ialist, drag-queen ass that I can’t criticize them because they’re “hippies”. I’m sick of it.

  137. 137
    Svensker says:

    @John Cole:

    There is no reason to be calling Jane a bitch. There is no reason to start acting like sexist assholes. Unacceptable, and all of you should knock it off.

    I don’t know, John. Speaking as a woman, it doesn’t bother me when you call a guy a “dick” or a “prick” because he’s acting like one. Nor does it bother me if you call a woman a “cunt” or a “bitch” if she’s acting like one.

    If we agree not to call Jane (or any woman acting very badly) a “bitch”, what do we get to call her? “Big poopy head”?

  138. 138
    mcc says:

    (I like that the first time I posted that, “soc*alist” triggered the word filter but saying “fuck” four times didn’t.)

  139. 139
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    @Svensker: Though I personally don’t use the b word referring to females I don’t like or agree with, I do like your style and counter PC open minded sense of fair play. That is all.

  140. 140
    scav says:

    @Corner Stone:

    He brings his own ice cream?

    goes well with pie and an IQ below freezing ° C . .

  141. 141
    Uloborus says:

    @Sly:
    Bah, I say! Bah! I made this joke several threads ago! BAH!

    Somebody get me a drink!

  142. 142
    Jon H says:

    @Svensker: “If we agree not to call Jane (or any woman acting very badly) a “bitch”, what do we get to call her? “Big poopy head”?”

    Call her a dick.

  143. 143
    williamc says:

    @Corner Stone:

    It says about me that I listen to what people say and watch what they do and form opinions on those people based on that. She’s still trying to kill this bill (Why? Does she think a restart’s going to happen in an election year and she’ll get a more progressive bill at the end of this when this process is going on in another year), which will deny tens of millions of people access to health insurance coverage. She did team up with noted anti-tax advocate Grover Norquist in quest to accomplish this task of killing the bill. Yet, she does call herself a leftist. Where did I err on the side of thinking wrongly of her?

    I am not punching hippies by calling this lady crazy, I am a fucking hippie, and I’ve got the tie-dye, waterpipes, and the volunteer log hours at Planned Parenthood, not to mention a career in anti-poverty advocacy to prove it, but I’m also a grown up, and as a grown-up I am supposed to know when I’ve gotten as good as I’m going to get out of a situation, grab my friends, and try to leave when the leaving’s good, but apparently this lady doesn’t know that. She is attacking everyone who disagrees with her, even her allies, just because she isn’t getting her way and can’t get her way.

    I’m sorry if some of you don’t like the phrase “crazy bitch”, it might be a generational thing, but my 30-something yo fag-ass has been called a crazy bitch every day for as long as I can remember, and I’m a man.

    Now in true lefty form, I want to offer my apology for something I don’t think is wrong just so we can pretend to get over it.

  144. 144
    Will says:

    @Midnight Marauder:

    Bottom line, it was a lot easier to behave the way Jane has over the past year, than to get health care passed.

  145. 145
    Corner Stone says:

    @williamc:

    it might be a generational thing, but my 30-something yo fag-ass has been called a crazy bitch every day for as long as I can remember, and I’m a man.

    Maybe you should move on from that situation?
    Or are you in the theater and it’s part of a routine.

  146. 146
    williamc says:

    @Corner Stone:

    No, because I work with a lot of young people and they say it all the time, they all swear all the time about everything. Gawd, I wish I was in the theater! I’d probably not be concerned with the machinations of politicians and their general lack of knowledge about public policy and I’d get to crazy bitch it up on stage every night. Wait, JC can I call myself or my behavior “crazy bitch” or is the term just generally off-limits?

  147. 147
    NobodySpecial says:

    @mcc:

    You know what? Fuck you right back. I’m far from the ‘latte liberal’ you’re trying to paint me as, and my disappointment with this bill stems entirely from the fact that this bill will not help me, it will only hurt me. Of course, this thing long ago became ‘let’s get a win’ rather than ‘let’s actually get Americans health care’, because a lot of folks like me are going to have to apply for exemptions because we like shit like being able to make the fucking car payment or actually eating three squares a day instead of giving Blue Cross or Aetna free money.

    But that’s ok, because you make idiots like Mike Kay happy.

  148. 148
    eemom says:

    @Jon H:

    I’m on board with that, provided we get a “Jane Hamsher is a dick” tag. kthxbai

  149. 149
    Uloborus says:

    @NobodySpecial:
    Alright, look. These accusations that this bill is a gift to insurance have been debunked repeatedly. Repeatedly. Ad infinitum. I understand how if you thought this bill did nothing but force everyone who can’t afford insurance to buy it, it would seem reprehensible.

    But that’s not the bill. Poor people get gobs of money to help them buy health care. Insurance companies are shafted twelve ways from Sunday to make sure they start charging prices that are at least vaguely reasonable. It has a built-in system of enacting *more* price controls through its funky pilot program system.

    Also, having worked in health care, I can tell you that the insurance companies *do not want* these 30 million people. These are the people they’ve deliberately priced out of the market because they can’t make money on them no matter how much they charge. And now they’re being forced to take them at the government’s price.

    The insurance companies consider this bill a win because they were terrified they’d be put out of business entirely.

    This is basically why we get ticked at anyone who is willing to sacrifice this bill in the vague hope of something better.

  150. 150
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Uloborus:

    I’ve run the numbers, given my income and the subsidy levels. With what I’ll have to pay yearly for premiums for even a Silver plan, I’ll be in a position financially where I probably won’t be able to pay whatever co-pays are required should I, god forbid, actually have to GO to the doctor. And I need to go to the doctor, so all this bill does for me personally is takes a portion of my money and hands it to the insurance companies for insurance I can’t use because I STILL can’t afford to get sick.

    And there are lots of people like me – people with expenses that eat up their income already and are having a hard time making ends meet. The subsidies don’t do the trick, so we’re going to be stuck filing for exemptions so we don’t get fined for paying our OTHER bills. That’s not bullshit.

    And I’ve never said kill the bill. I’ve simply said that Congress and the White House made a deliberate choice that people like me were going to be fucked to get a win. And that, being as I actually did campaign work to PUT Obama and co. in power, I actually expected better.

    And then, when you note exactly that, you get punched on this fucking board by people who already HAVE insurance and getting told that you’ll shut up and take what you’re given, or else you’re some kind of traitor to America and you probably run around offing disabled people.

  151. 151
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Svensker:

    If we agree not to call Jane (or any woman acting very badly) a “bitch”, what do we get to call her? “Big poopy head”?

    Asshole is always a nicely gender-neutral insult.

  152. 152
    scav says:

    @NobodySpecial: Sweetheart, you don’t remember who Ken Lay is. With amnesia like that, you clearly need medical help and we clearly can’t trust your numbers or brain function.

  153. 153
    theturtlemoves says:

    @lamh31: See, that whole Herseth-Sandlin thing really makes me think Jane is being willfully ignorant just to stick it to the White House again. As someone who actually got to, you know, vote for her back before she was hyphenated and attended Democratic events at which she and Tim Johnson were in attendance, I can assure you her no vote on HCR has absolutely nothing to do with abortion and everything to do with being a giant Blue Dog of doom. I voted for her back then because a Democratic corporatist is marginally better than a Republican, but she ain’t a DFH. She was endorsed, over her Republican rival, by the NRA, for fuck’s sake.

  154. 154
    gwangung says:

    And then, when you note exactly that, you get punched on this fucking board by people who already HAVE insurance

    I wish you wouldn’t make unwarranted assumptions.

    That’s twice you’ve done that. Most people would learn from that.

  155. 155
    NobodySpecial says:

    @scav:

    Don’t get fucking jokes? Do you need history lessons?

  156. 156
    scav says:

    @NobodySpecial: I based my response on your comments in multiple threads. Dearest. I went with the one that amused me the most.

  157. 157
    NobodySpecial says:

    @gwangung:

    Yeah, well, they’ve been made enough on me, eye for an eye.

    And yes, there are lots of people on this board who have lost insurance and ones who can’t get insurance who may be helped by this – if they can afford the insurance they’re going to be given. But it DOES hurt people like me, and instead of acknowledging that fact, some BJers just wanna play ‘punch the hippie’ with anyone who expresses a contrary opinion.

  158. 158
    Marc says:

    Re #149: Let’s see if I’m understanding you. Basically, you just want to not have insurance and make the rest of us pay your bills if you get hurt or really sick. You won’t be able to do that. Cry me a river.

    Prohibiting insurance companies from discriminating on health grounds can’t co-exist with healthy folks passing on insurance. That isn’t Obama’s fault, it’s the reality of the economics.

  159. 159
    NobodySpecial says:

    @scav:

    Evidently not. Dishonesty run much in your family?

  160. 160
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Marc:

    No, I’d LOVE to have insurance. I need it.

    But insurance that leaves me unable to go to the doctor isn’t insurance. It’s Starbridge without the pluses. (That’s humor, for Scav to take note.)

  161. 161
    gwangung says:

    @NobodySpecial: It’s not “punch the hippie”; it’s “whose ox gets gored.” Nobody’s repudiating or trashing your goals; they’re in a dispute over methods.

    And, frankly, some people HAVE considered your position, but, rightly or wrongly, consider the benefits (granted, in many cases, for them) to outweigh the negatives (which is why it’s “whose ox gets gored”).

  162. 162
    NobodySpecial says:

    @gwangung:

    Well, all I know is, they’re having too much FUN goring oxen to worry about the people that get left behind when they’re done celebrating.

  163. 163
    scav says:

    @NobodySpecial: nope. Nor insanity. we argue and wave our arms a lot. And we tend to vote for things that benefit others and not just ourselves.

  164. 164
    gwangung says:

    @NobodySpecial: I quite understand you getting pissed off while you’re still left in the lurch (because you ARE getting left without support). And you have understandable fears that the energy won’t be there to fix your situation (which DOES need fixing). But I think a lot people truly believe that to fix your problems, they need to do an incremental step forward, and they can’t get from here to there without that step.

    (Although I guess it’s human to be gleeful to see that it’s YOUR ox that’s been gored and not theirs).

  165. 165
    NobodySpecial says:

    @scav:

    You have a vote in this? Somehow I doubt it.

  166. 166
    NobodySpecial says:

    @gwangung:

    But I think a lot people truly believe that to fix your problems, they need to do an incremental step forward, and they can’t get from here to there without that step.

    I’d really like to believe that. But given that it’s going to be five years before this even comes into effect, and the reality that Conservadems control the caucus forever and ever amen, I don’t expect any reform that will help me in less than 20 years. If we’re lucky.

  167. 167
    mcc says:

    @NobodySpecial: In other words, you’re angry people will get health care they need, because you believe it might cost you some money.

    So you know what? You’re right, you’re not a latte liberal. You’re a Republican. That’s their whole platform.

    Personally I am lucky, I do have insurance, right this instant. But not long ago I didn’t. Aside from that, last year it very almost went away (well, it went away for three days, and those three days wound up being very expensive) and I’m acutely aware it could go away at any moment now. I’m really, really not okay with going back to that particular gamble and I don’t much care that you prefer the gamble where you don’t have insurance and assume you never get sick at all (I can only assume from the way you’re phrasing things you’ve not had an incident where you actually have to go to a doctor as an uninsured individual, and find out how much more an uninsured individual pays even in situations where the insurance company isn’t contributing a cent) to the gamble where you have to take the risks with whether buying insurance on the exchange might be a losing business proposition for you (you say you’ve “run the numbers” but you seem to be making some pretty huge assumptions about the fine details of which plans will or won’t be available in a few years– for example if you’re concerned about not meeting your deductible, have you considered an hsa-like plan?). Nothing is happening to you that isn’t happening to me.

    Oh, and by the way, I don’t think I remember if you’ve shared your personal views on this with us in the past, but just checking– if you’re soo angry about the premium costs of that insurance you’ll have to buy under the mandate but it turns out you would have been okay with the mandate so long as Congress had passed the public option in the House bill– you know, the one that the CBO estimates would have even higher premiums than a private plan– then fuuuuuck yoooooooouuuu

  168. 168
    NobodySpecial says:

    @mcc:

    In other words, you’re angry people will get health care they need, because you believe it might cost you some money.

    So you know what? You’re right, you’re not a latte liberal. You’re a Republican. That’s their whole platform

    No. As I’ve said here and before (which you managed to miss), I’m angry because I won’t be able to get the health care I need, and I still have to pay for it.

    And yes, I had to pay for my own throat surgery last year as an uninsured person. Fortunately that only cost me $5000 that I had saved up, so I could still make my car payments. Of course, now I don’t HAVE $5000 saved up, so I’d better hope they were right that the growth wasn’t anything bad, because I don’t have a war chest to fight with anymore.

    I DON’T ‘prefer the gamble’. But I need insurance I can afford. And if I can’t afford it right NOW, when double-digit premium increases are the norm, I’m not going to make any predictions that it’s going to be any easier five years from today. I’ve plugged my numbers into the Kaiser Family website, and came back with ~$1800/year in premiums ALONE for the average Silver policy. Suffice it to say, with what I pay for my normal living expenses, I don’t have it.

    So my best choice? Apply for an exemption. Which sucks all kinds of rocks. But that’s what this Congress is giving me, and what YOU say I should shut up and accept.

  169. 169
    watou says:

    It saddens me (it really does) to see such hatred and viciousness here about Jane Hamsher. She wants Democrats to keep their promises; they don’t; she gets angry and wants better Democrats. Here, you pile on her like a pack of dogs, indulging your glee in her perceived failures, elevating your cynicism above her principles like that’s a good thing. Faulting people like her for fighting for better results outside the tribe, when the tribe fails, is a fatal flaw that will prevent Democrats from ever getting out from under the corporate whores who call the shots. It is her fighting instinct that inspires me, and your vicious pack mentality that discourages me.

  170. 170
    scav says:

    @NobodySpecial: well, if you can’t get exactly what you want, nobody should get what they can possibly get. I really don’t get you. & I expect my vote is exactly worth what your vote is worth. blah blah blah.

  171. 171
    NobodySpecial says:

    @scav:

    It’s no wonder you don’t get me. You don’t read what I wrote, and don’t pretend to try and understand it.

    well, if you can’t get exactly what you want, nobody should get what they can possibly get. I really don’t get you.

    Did I say that? Anywhere?

    Or is that you projecting?

  172. 172
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    @watou: OH save us the whining. What is at stake is life and death for millions of Americans if this bill goes down. And screw a bunch self preening hogwash about principles and making dems keep promises. They promised to cover those who can’t get or afford health insurance and Jane is doing her best to see they don’t keep that promise. The rest is just tribal horseshit.

  173. 173
    burnspbesq says:

    @Svensker:

    what do we get to call her? “Big poopy head”?

    That’ll work.

  174. 174
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @watou: Grover Norquist. That is all. Anyone working with him is not doing what’s in the best interest of Democrats or progressives or America in general. I don’t have personal venom or vitriol towards Hamsher, but I cannot read her writing because it is unhinged.

    As for c u n t, I do not like it being used because the pussy is a beautiful thing. No need to get all pejorative with it. I agree that asshole is a nice, gender-free insult.

    As for this exchange, I tend to side with Wiegel more than Hamsher, but from the excerpts I read, I don’t see how he made the conclusion he did.

  175. 175
    asiangrrlMN says:

    Goddamn it. Mod hell. Probably for the c word. I will try again.

    @watou: Grover Norquist. That is all. Anyone working with him is not doing what’s in the best interest of Democrats or progressives or America in general. I don’t have personal venom or vitriol towards Hamsher, but I cannot read her writing because it is unhinged.

    As for count minus the o, I do not like it being used because the pussy is a beautiful thing. No need to get all pejorative with it. I agree that asshole is a nice, gender-free insult.

    As for this exchange, I tend to side with Wiegel more than Hamsher, but from the excerpts I read, I don’t see how he made the conclusion he did.

  176. 176
    mcc says:

    I’m angry because I won’t be able to get the health care I need, and I still have to pay for it.

    Well, you believe that. And Sarah Palin believes death panels will be attempting to unplug her special-needs child. I have question about how well founded your beliefs are.

    And yes, I had to pay for my own throat surgery last year as an uninsured person. Fortunately that only cost me $5000 that I had saved up… Of course, now I don’t HAVE $5000 saved up… I’ve plugged my numbers into the Kaiser Family website, and came back with ~$1800/year in premiums ALONE for the average Silver policy

    Okay, wait, wait, I am pretty sure I’m for several reasons (primarily how much I do not know about your situation) making an enormous mistake by picking at this, but I can’t help but notice. You can’t afford $1800/yr, you did afford a $5000 throat surgery? It seems to me that with a $3200 deductible or better $1800 for that year would have been breakeven. And of course you usually are able to trade off different deductibles for different plans, a situation which I can only expect will continue under the exchange system. Spending two minutes on blue shields’ website for my state (first provider I thought of, so not lots of comparison shopping here) I’m finding quotes of $900-1450 a year as an individual for a $900 deductible plan, depending on what age between 28 and 40 I punch in. At those prices it seems like you could get 3-4 years of coverage (in other words last year, this year, next year, next year…?) plus pay for a throat surgery one year for the same cost as going uninsured for years and paying for a throat surgery out of pocket once. You say you can’t afford insurance under the plan but it sorta sounds like insurance might have been a better fiscal move for you under the current system, and under the hcr bill the average person’s insurance costs go down.

    If you’re not mildly exaggerating the situation because you’re angry about the bill for other reasons, it sorta sounds like you’ve been doing some somewhat foolish (if understandable– certainly I’ve done worse) things with your money and are now angry the government is callously going to attempt to get you to stop. I mean, I really don’t know. My apologies if this has gone too far into things that ought to be private.

    (Did you say there is a calculator for estimated effects of the health care plan on the Kaiser Foundation website? I would be curious to see it.)

    Did I say that? Anywhere? Or is that you projecting?

    Well you came in here incredibly angry that people are criticizing a person who has been acting irrationally and dishonestly. You used terms strong enough to suggest that you consider what she is doing to be important and sympathetic enough that criticizing it is “hippie punching”. What the person has been attempting to do is halt the passage of the health care reform bill; the implication is that you consider attempting to stop the passage of the health care bill to be an activity beyond criticism. That seems to say something about your desires concerning the bill, though you conspicuously avoid mentioning specifically what it is you want to happen at this point. In discussing your unhappiness about the bill your reasoning for doing so revolves entirely around the mandate provision, and I suppose the fact that the Democrats did not do more to strip it earlier? Though the person/group you came in here to defend, of course, lifted not one finger I ever saw to halt the mandate during the two year period back before it was too late to do anything about it; and then later started caring about the mandate only because we didn’t get our way on a technically unrelated provision (the public option) which would not have had any effect on how deleterious or expensive the mandate is. It seems kind of hard to suss out exactly what it is you are trying to communicate, except that you are angry, so we are making our best efforts to infer your position based on your statements so that we can engage with you in this site’s intended purpose of discussing political current events

    Personally it’s all about the same to me except I’m sick of this “hippies” meme and I find your use of numbers somewhat questionable.

  177. 177
    dday says:

    Yes, me providing aggregated information about public statements on health care absolutely connotes ratfucking.

    I decided to see where the votes were on health care on my own. I don’t even know what it could possibly mean that I’m engaging in a ratfuck. I take public statements and assess them. Heck, I don’t have Gutierrez and Capuano as No’s because I’m not dumb enough to think that liberal House Dems won’t come home. Explain to me exactly what the fuck you are implying here.

    Put me down for “angry and incoherent.” There’s no reason to rope me and my little distributed knowledge project into your personal hatred for Jane. Weigel already apologized to me once today for trying to do so; I await yours.

  178. 178
    NobodySpecial says:

    @mcc:

    Well, you believe that. And Sarah Palin believes death panels will be attempting to unplug her special-needs child. I have question about how well founded your beliefs are.

    You can plug in the fucking numbers at the Kaiser Foundation’s website. That’s my beliefs. They give the numbers based on the Senate’s health bill. That’s what we’re getting. So fuck yourself and your ‘beliefs’.

    Okay, wait, wait, I am pretty sure I’m for several reasons (primarily how much I do not know about your situation) making an enormous mistake by picking at this, but I can’t help but notice. You can’t afford $1800/yr, you did afford a $5000 throat surgery?

    That was part of what’s left to me by a dead relative. I can’t count on any more dead relatives to leave me chunks of money. That was also money I was holding back to pay for college. That’s done now. Because now I’m back to paycheck to paycheck living.

    Spending two minutes on blue shields’ website for my state (first provider I thought of, so not lots of comparison shopping here) I’m finding quotes of $900-1450 a year as an individual for a $900 deductible plan, depending on what age between 28 and 40 I punch in. At those prices it seems like you could get 3-4 years of coverage (in other words last year, this year, next year, next year…?) plus pay for a throat surgery one year for the same cost as going uninsured for years and paying for a throat surgery out of pocket once. You say you can’t afford insurance under the plan but it sorta sounds like insurance might have been a better fiscal move for you under the current system, and under the hcr bill the average person’s insurance costs go down.

    Unfortunately, every single time I’ve applied for insurance with a company, I’ve been denied. No reason given. Even when I fit all their guidelines, I’ve still been denied. Yeah, giving them a ton of money would have been the ‘smart move’ – but they don’t have to take it if they don’t want, and they did it. Ok, in 2014 they will have to. Doesn’t help 2009. I’ve tried high deductibles, as high as $10k. No dice. Perhaps I should invest in Jedi Mind Powers. Or maybe we should quit pretending that health care companies just take anyone.

    Well you came in here incredibly angry that people are criticizing a person who has been acting irrationally and dishonestly. You used terms strong enough to suggest that you consider what she is doing to be important and sympathetic enough that criticizing it is “hippie punching”.

    No, that is NOT what I said. This is what I said.

    Whatever kind of idiot, useful or otherwise, Hamsher is, he gave her exactly 16 minutes to reply before posting?

    Wow, no ambush jurnalism there. Misspelling intentional.

    Then I said this after Cole took objection to them calling Hamsher a bitch:

    You raised them to punch hippies. Don’t get mad now that they’re using closed fists.

    …before you decided to tell me exactly who’s a fucking hippie. And insinuated that I wanted to kill the bill. Forget the fact that I’ve never said to kill the bill. Facts don’t matter when it comes to you getting to say mean things to people you don’t agree with, right?

    I don’t care about Jane Hamsher. Never did. Visited FDL maybe a dozen times after Marcy went there, because I like Marcy. But Dave Weigel is a shit journalist for pulling that shit, and he doesn’t need kudos for being a shit journalist just because he spread it on someone we don’t like.

  179. 179
    Tattoosydney says:

    @asiangrrlMN:

    I agree that asshole is a nice, gender-free insult.

    Hey! Some of us happen to like arseholes.

  180. 180
    mcc says:

    No, that is NOT what I said. This is what I said.

    I see. I am sorry.

  181. 181
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Tattoosydney: True. There is that. I also like cocks and dicks and pricks and cocksuckers, so can’t use those. How about jackass? I think we can all agree that jackass is a nice compromise?

    I read more on this tiff. It seems that Hamsher should direct her beef at the Serkes, not at Wiegel. Still, regardless, weak sauce all around.

  182. 182
    Joey Maloney says:

    @mcc:

    And while I’m at it ORLY TAITZ AND ANNE COULTER ARE NOT TRANSGENDERED. THEY’RE JUST OLDER WOMEN MAKING QUESTIONABLE MAKEUP CHOICES

    Unless you can correctly identify their distinguishing characteristics, it would be irresponsible not to speculate.

  183. 183

    @Zipperupus:

    And, finally, she has her hand on the ActBlue machine.

    I don’t get this. It’s popped up here and there, but I haven’t been able to find anything to support this.

    The current brain trust and the multiple press reports make no mention of ‘her hand.’

    ActBlue was founded in 2004 by Benjamin Rahn, who left a doctoral program in theoretical physics at Caltech to develop the platform, and Matt DeBergalis, a computer science graduate of MIT.

    I’ve no love for people who ally themselves with likes of Grover Norquist, but I’m not seeing any ActBlue connection.

  184. 184
    kansi says:

    For those of you asking, Christy stepped away from FDL after being diagnosed with lupus. Sad…

  185. 185
    Remember November says:

    @MikeJ:

    she pulls her dinner from her pocket…

    Jane says I’m going away to Spain,

    Get some money saved, try again tomorrow…

    she’s gonna quit tomorrow….

  186. 186
    Remember November says:

    Sadly, all insurance is based on a pro-rated “gamble” of healthy people versus sick people. But healthy habits aside- there is also home and work environmental issues. The food industry also plays into this, with it’s substandard FDA placebo ratings and big aggro pushing for genetically modified and untested foodsources. The health and safety of the average American take second place to the health of the 10K. Now that corporations have more rights than the average citizen, you wonder why these gigantic corporations say “yeah, so?”. They have become the Untouchables.

  187. 187
    Gregory says:

    @jakethesnake:

    Passing this bill is a win for insurance and pharma, not progressives.

    Which is why the insurance industry is throwing everything it has into supporting the bill. Oh, wait…

    Sheesh.

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