Open Thread: Penis Substitutes At the Ready!

There is something seriously wrong with a society where the headline “Starbucks Asks Not to Be Center of Gun Debate” appears in the New York Times:

Coffee chain Starbucks Corp. is sticking to its policy of letting customers carry guns where it’s legal and said it does not want to be put in the middle of a larger gun-control debate.
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The company’s statement, issued Wednesday, stems from recent campaign by some gun owners, who have walked into Starbucks and other businesses to test state laws that allow gun owners to carry weapons openly in public places. Gun control advocates have protested.
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The fight began heating up in January in Northern California and has since spread to other states and other companies, bolstered by the pro-gun group OpenCarry.org.

Starbucks? This is your bold, patriotic idea of a dangerous venue in which to flaunt your precious Second Amendment pacifiers? Because laptop-wielding hipsters are soooo freaking terrifying? Because the baristers are armed with… scalding hot milk foam?
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If your gun is a tool, it is something to be treated with the respect you’d show any potentially dangerous tool. Somehow I don’t see a spontaneous uprising of lumberjacks carrying chainsaws and construction workers flourishing jackhammers at the local Starbucks, because this is the real world, not a badly scripted porno movie. Semi-retired CPAs who listen to a lot of Rush Limbaugh, please copy.
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Anyone who has to demonstrate his political allegiances by flashing a gun at a Starbucks has presumably decided that it’s too risky to “support the Second Amendment” at a Dunkin Donuts… where the professional security forces hang out. Or even at the local McDonald’s, where some safety-conscious mommy at the ball pit would be liable to give you a very hurtful talking-to.
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Is it possible that that this organization is actually a Borat-style performance? Because, seriously… Manliness FAIL.

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208 replies
  1. 1
    MikeJ says:

    There was an idiot woman on the news here tonight. You may remember a few months back four cops got gunned down in a coffee shop. The crazy lady on the news swore up and down that had she been there, she would have killed the killer, something the four armed, trained police officers were unable to do.

  2. 2
    celticdragonchick says:

    I would doubt that most of the open carry crowd are frequent Starbucks patrons. As for legal conceal carry permit holders…who cares? I don’t. I intend to get a CCW myself, since I have run into one too many GLBT bashers who thought I might be an evenings entertainment as a punching/stabbing/whatever target.

    No thanks.

  3. 3
    Mike in NC says:

    They’ll need to pry my latte from my cold dead hands!

  4. 4
    celticdragonchick says:

    @MikeJ:

    There was an idiot woman on the news here tonight. You may remember a few months back four cops got gunned down in a coffee shop. The crazy lady on the news swore up and down that had she been there, she would have killed the killer, something the four armed, trained police officers were unable to do.

    The killer was deliberately ambushing the officers who were doing paperwork. An unexpected threat from another armed person may have prevented his flight…or maybe not. There is no way to know. What is so laughable in some of these threads is the insulting assumption that anybody not in uniform is an incompetent oaf (one has to wonder how we all manage to get into our cars and drive to work…) who will shoot everybody around them or even themselves, but will pose no threat to the awesome powers of the super-villain arch criminal.

  5. 5
    MikeJ says:

    @celticdragonchick: If you want to know where people get those ideas, look at the stats for accidental shootings and compare them to the number for “shot a real bad guy”. One number is orders of magnitude higher.

  6. 6
    Ash Can says:

    @celticdragonchick: I’m waiting for the first headline about you, or someone else in your position, making Swiss cheese out of some NRA officers or a group of GOP honchos who are out drinking some night and, on a lark, decide to try to kick the shit out of you. Papers in order, weapon registered, self-defense with police witnesses. Case closed. Congrats, right-wing gun freaks! This is just how you wanted it! You win! …Right?

  7. 7
    celticdragonchick says:

    There is something seriously wrong with a society where the headline…

    Would you like to live in another one where individualism (not to mention womens rights…!) is not so highly valued?

    Think about it.

  8. 8
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    It’s mostly to intimidate their liberal opponents and is a dangerous game to play. What they don’t realize with their brain dead stereotyping is the fact there is a fair number of liberals who also own guns, served in the military, etc… that don’t feel the need to brandish firearms to make a political point, but have them and know how to use them if they go too far. And they are currently probing the limits of that reality. Not unlike cattle calls for secession by state pol leaders in red states.

  9. 9
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Ash Can:

    : I’m waiting for the first headline about you, or someone else in your position, making Swiss cheese out of some NRA officers or a group of GOP honchos who are out drinking some night and, on a lark, decide to try to kick the shit out of you. Papers in order, weapon registered, self-defense with police witnesses. Case closed. Congrats, right-wing gun freaks! This is just how you wanted it! You win! …Right?

    I don’t fantasize about killing people, personally. I was a helicopter door gunner, and the reality of that job was quite enough. Thank God I don’t have anybody on my conscience from that.

    That being said…I will not hesitate to double tap center mass anybody who wants to go Leviticus on me or my family.

  10. 10
    YellowJournalism says:

    As if packing heat cancels out the elitist mochaccino they’re drinking…

  11. 11
  12. 12
    celticdragonchick says:

    @YellowJournalism:

    LOL :)

  13. 13
    Xenos says:

    The best article on this subject wast last week, from the San Francisco Chronicle: The start to the article:

    Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun.

    Such rough-hewn manliness…

  14. 14
    Corner Stone says:

    Sigh.

  15. 15
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Xenos:

    That is some really stupid male swagger BS, I must say.

  16. 16
    Brian J says:

    I’m not a gun person by any stretch.* I don’t own any, and unless I move to a part of the country where it seems necessary or I decide to take up skeet shooting or hunting, I’d have no reason to buy one. I don’t know if you’d classify me as pro-gun control. I guess I’d lean in that direction, but suffice it to say that I doubt I’d agree with the NRA on much.

    That said, I try to think of what a lot of people who do consider owning a gun part of their normal lives. And that’s probably what Starbucks is doing.

    Did you know there are more Starbucks in Texas than there are in New York? (This site has it at 604 for Texas versus 384 for New York.) The recession may change their expansion plans for some time, there’s still a lot of the country that doesn’t have one. Most of those areas aren’t Manhattan or Hollywood, but probably parts of the country where guns are, for better or worse, a normal part of peoples’ lives. It’ll probably be hard to expand in those areas if there’s a policy that goes against what a lot of these people believe in.

    There’s really no upside for the company right now. The company is bound to piss far more people off by banning guns in some stores than it is to gain them by not allowing them. It’s not really sensible to try to take a stand on an issue like this when you’re bound to irritate a lot of people with a policy that will affect them when the other choice is to stick with a policy that would please a lot of people but never affect them. In other words, nobody in an urban store will see a gun, unless the local laws change.

  17. 17
    Xenos says:

    @celticdragonchick: I am just so appalled that there exists such a thing as a banana frappuchino that I don’t care if he were armed with a handgun or a couple rabid hedgehogs. Chasing down that thing with a cinnabon is just unnatural and intolerable.

  18. 18
    YellowJournalism says:

    @Xenos: Guns and bananas? Someone really does have penis issues!

  19. 19
    DougJ says:

    Wish I had something good to add here.

    This is nuts.

  20. 20
    celticdragonchick says:

    For the record…

    I believe that open carry of a firearm in 99% of social situations is reckless, ostentatiously stupid and unforgivably gauche.

    So there.

    If you want to carry a weapon around in public, join a re-enactors group, learn the history and share it with others responsibly.

    I just got an email that my Kings Second Land Pattern Brown Bess musket (circa 1778) just shipped today… yay! Just in time for the Battle Of Guilford Courthouse!

  21. 21
    Joey Maloney says:

    @celticdragonchick: I gotta say I’m not quite following the logical connection between “individualism” and “walking around packed 24/7”.

  22. 22
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Xenos:

    : I am just so appalled that there exists such a thing as a banana frappuchino that I don’t care if he were armed with a handgun or a couple rabid hedgehogs. Chasing down that thing with a cinnabon is just unnatural and intolerable.

    I just sprayed coke at the screen :D

    Damn!

    Gotta go to bed… heh!

  23. 23
    GregB says:

    Hey Celticdragonchick,

    I checked the Urban Dictionary for the phrase ‘double-tap’.

    6. Double tap

    The act of covering both eyes of a girl with spunk.

    Shauniqua wasn’t giving a good BJ so I pulled out and double tapped that b****; she tried to run, but couldn’t see.

    Just what kind of Starbucks are you hanging out in?

  24. 24
    YellowJournalism says:

    @celticdragonchick: I swear there’s a comedy routine out there that talks about how carrying a weapon would be not such a big deal if technology hadn’t proceeded past the musket.

    As far as the woman MikeJ referenced goes, I think what’s offensive in that situation is not the thought of someone trying to stop the shooter by whipping out a weapon in the coffee shop, rather the fact that this woman tried to make herself look like some real tough piece of work, as if it isn’t kind of shitty playing Monday morning quarterback about a situation in which people actually died.

  25. 25
    Davis X. Machina says:

    Somehow I don’t see a spontaneous uprising of lumberjacks carrying chainsaws…

    One hopes.

    Years ago I subbed at a high school in rural Maine that had some vocational students going into the woods every day basically to learn lumberjacking. (It’s a very dangerous business, but a lot safer if you’re trained.)

    I had walk-around-the-outside-and catch-smokers duty first period, and I’d see these boys all lined up with their axes, peavies and chainsaws to catch the bus up to the job site, and all I could think was “Jesus, I hope no one stole anyone else’s girlfriend last night…..”

  26. 26
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Joey Maloney:

    I gotta say I’m not quite following the logical connection between “individualism” and “walking around packed 24/7”.

    Our culture is far more distrustful of central authority than many others (the ancient Athenians would still say we are boot lickers for having representative Democracy) and our nation is predicated on Revolution. The idea of the militia man/Minuteman with his long rifle or fowling piece has been a part of our heritage since the beginning. I’ll be damned if I’m going to surrender that to the tea baggers, fwiw.

    In any event, our notions of individualism is deeply tied in with self defense, self autonomy and so on. I have noticed that when it comes to engaging other cultural norms, you have to take the good with the bad. You may like that lower levels of violence in another culture, but might find the restrictions that are put on women to be intolerable. It isn’t like a buffet where you just get to pick what you want.

  27. 27
    celticdragonchick says:

    @GregB:

    6. Double tap
    The act of covering both eyes of a girl with spunk.

    Oh.
    My.
    God.

    *gag*

    Uh…when used as a verb with firearms, “double tap” means to discharge two bullets, which increases your hit probability considerably. You hear the phrase in some movies, such as “Patriot Games”.

    I really could have lived the rest of my life without ever reading that quote you graced me with.

  28. 28
    celticdragonchick says:

    Good night, all.

    Except you, Greg. You need a spanking. From somebody.

  29. 29
    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal) says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    Speak for yourself! IMO, the image that the Urban Dictionary definition gave me relating to your scenario was fucking gold!

    In a Starbucks?! Damn. ;)

  30. 30
    OC says:

    I’m sorry but anyone who has to carry a gun in public has a small weiner. They just do. It’s not open for discussion.

  31. 31
    JGabriel says:

    I think people should just stop going to Starbucks anyway. The coffee is over-roasted, over-priced, swill. And if it punishes them for their whiny, fraidy-cat, “Oh don’t make us a stand,” gun-toleratin’ ways, then all the better.

    .

  32. 32
    wlrube says:

    You hear the phrase in some movies, such as “Patriot Games”.

    I was thinking about Zombieland myself.

  33. 33
    Yutsano says:

    What happened to the old fashioned way of using your car to compensate for penis size? Suddenly I feel a wee bit less safe indulging in my coffee in the morning.

  34. 34
    Yutsano says:

    Bleah. You just set up this thread to see who was stupid enough to fall into the moderation trap didn’t you Anne Laurie? I see what you’re doing here!

  35. 35
    Quiddity says:

    I’ll give you my cold, dead dick when you take it from my gun-wielding hands!

    Or something like that.

  36. 36
    freelancer says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    The idea of the militia man/Minuteman with his long rifle or fowling piece has been a part of our heritage since the beginning. I’ll be damned if I’m going to surrender that to the tea baggers, fwiw.

    Then damned you are, because nowadays, any schmuck wearing a tricorder hat is pegged as a batshit, know-nothing, teabagging racist birther.

    Maybe in a few years, you’ll get it back.

  37. 37
    Brian J says:

    @JGabriel:

    Depends on what you get there, I think. I don’t like a lot of the exotic blends, since they taste too much like coffee with Tangueray in it, but Pike’s is good. I also like the Espresso Roast and the Gold Coast blend. It’s pretty strong, or so it tastes that way, but it’s good.

  38. 38
    Calming Influence says:

    As a Seattleite, Starbucks is like an frickin’ albatross around my neck. When I travel, total strangers try to hold me personally responsible for the overpriced, mediocre blandness served at Starbucks’ across the nation, and I’m sick of it.

    Either make it yourself, or go to Dunkin’ Donuts, but please please please just shut the fuck up. I ain’t gonna be your butt boy any more.

    The next time I fly and the person in the adjacent seat says “You’re from Seattle, huh? What’s up with Starbucks?” I’m gonna go Point Break on ’em and drag them out of the plane at 35,000 feet.

  39. 39
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Good for the people exercising their rights. Let it be seen.

  40. 40
    r€nato says:

    I’m pretty sure that farting in public is protected by the First Amendment, but I am not thinking of going to Starbucks and testing that right.

  41. 41
    Yutsano says:

    @Calming Influence: That’s when you look at them funny, calmly announce, “I drink Peet’s”, then turn back to your inflight magazine.

    BTW it’s enough just to be from the state of Washington to get the Starbucks interrogation. Trust me on this one.

  42. 42
    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal) says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Very nice BOB, now put it away and zip ’em up. That’s not what we’re talking about.

  43. 43
    JGabriel says:

    @SFGate.com via Xenos:

    Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun.

    “G’dammit, Dale! How many times I gotta tell ya, if’n ya ain’t man enough to order a Banana Frappuccino without a gun strapped to yer waist, ya ain’t man enough to order a Banana Frappuccino period. Haina!”

    .

  44. 44
    Silver Owl says:

    Too many use guns to overcome their own insecurities. The NRA contributed to that. Republicans constantly parade their insecurities with the false premise that a gun will magically over come personal issues.

    Guns are tools and any fool that flashes their gun, needs to parade their gun every where they go is an irresponsible gun owner that is going to kill someone or get killed.

    To be honest I just do not think the American people are mature enough to have guns. So I expect a lot more murders from trigger happy morons wanting to pop boners rather than actually think.

  45. 45
    wasabi gasp says:

    This is good news, but I’m guessing I’ll still have to bicycle chain my warhead to a parking meter.

  46. 46
    Linkmeister says:

    One of these guys (might even have been the President of OpenCarry) was interviewed by CBC’s As It Happens today, if you want to listen. It’s at the 09:13 mark of that WMA stream. He was trying to sound reasonable to Canadians, who couldn’t figure out his rationale at all. I can’ t either; I seriously doubt any non-trained person with a gun is going to be helpful in a shooting incident.

  47. 47
    Calming Influence says:

    href=”#comment-1608327″>GregB:

    Really? This is what you want to say?

  48. 48
    JGabriel says:

    Silver Owl:

    To be honest I just do not think the American people are mature enough to have guns.

    Ding! Ding! Ding!

    I suspect (and hope) the majority of gun owners are mature enough to own guns, but anyone who feels it’s necessary to open carry their gun to Starbucks just to make a point clearly is not.

    .

  49. 49
    kdaug says:

    @wlrube:

    Ditto that. But Rule #1 is Cardio. Never forget.

    What’s the point in having a concealed carry permit if you’re going to flash it around at a Starbucks, anyway? “Ohhh, look at me, I gots me a gun.”

    Please. Those who know, don’t say. Those who say, don’t know.

    -K

  50. 50
    JGabriel says:

    @Linkmeister:

    He was trying to sound reasonable to Canadians, who couldn’t figure out his rationale at all.

    Which pretty much defines the distinction between trying to sound reasonable, and actually being reasonable.

    .

  51. 51
    kdaug says:

    @wasabi gasp:

    Heh. Where do I register my SAM?

  52. 52
    Calming Influence says:

    @Yutsano:
    Or Tully’s, even! Come to think of it, I’m going to get a t-shirt made that says “Ask me about Folger’s!”

  53. 53
    Yutsano says:

    @Calming Influence: There’s a fantastic independent roaster in Seattle called Jova. I can only get it on the ‘Net (I’m thinking they’re in Pike Place but don’t quote me on that) but their blends are fantastic. I’ll try to find the link here.

    EDIT: Okay it seems to have disappeared on me dammit.

  54. 54
    Gian says:

    some people have a legit reason to carry, say off duty cops who have arrested gang members who threaten to kill them, same for domestic violence or stalking victims. But the “open carry” people are different, their motivation doesn’t come from a legit need for self defense, it comes from a need to strut their stuff.

    since in most jurisdictions, there’s a difference legally in carrying a loaded and not loaded gun, the simple fact is these people are begging for some thug to kick their ass, and take the unloaded gun away, and even if it was loaded, it takes time to draw and point, so you have something expensive and useful for a crook sitting where a crook can see it and by suprise beat you up before you can use it and take it away. Well, the only place that you can do carry like that safely is somewhere like a Starbucks.

    wear that unloaded gun on your hip in east st louis or richmond, ca and get back to me big boy.

  55. 55
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    Pfft! measly guns in Starbucks. Down in Loozyanna they are fixing their “war wagon” to fight terrists and civil unrest .
    No doubt from the coming assault of Obama ninjas dressed in black.
    ‘Operation Exodus’

    A Louisiana sheriff plans to arm volunteers with shotguns, riot shields, batons, and a .50-caliber machine gun mounted on a “war wagon,” as part of “Operation Exodus,” a program to provide security in the event of a terrorist attack or civic unrest. “It’s a calling,” he says.

    Somehow, this country has slipped off the rails. “It’s a calling,” Sweet Mother of Mary.

  56. 56
    mclaren says:

    The Starbucks board had an intense debate about whether to permit partial-birth abortions in their outlets, or permit flag-burning, or let patrons carry guns.

    The gun faction won.

  57. 57
    wasabi gasp says:

    The Good ….. 12 oz.
    The Bad …….. 16 oz.
    The Ugly ……. 20 oz.

  58. 58
    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal) says:

    @General Egali Tarian Stuck:

    And I am sure that at the first hint of “civil unrest” the good sheriff and his “deputies” will jump in the “war wagon” and initiate “Operation Exodus” by driving into the nearest black community and opening up the 50 cal. on everyone in sight.

    Every great empire eventually falls but I never thought it would be the one I am living in. Bring on the Brawndo(R) indeed.

  59. 59
    Yutsano says:

    @wasabi gasp: Is this the inverse of beer goggling?

  60. 60
    wasabi gasp says:

    @Yutsano: What are you, my math teacher or something?

  61. 61
    General Egali Tarian Stuck says:

    @DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal):

    And they are all nearly middle aged white farts with several layers of jelly rolls and not a brain in their heads. Fat Paranoid white dudes with fifty cal machine guns in the deep south. The Elmer Fudd Brigade. What could go wrong?

  62. 62
    Yutsano says:

    @General Egali Tarian Stuck: There’s a profit formula in there somewhere, but I’m too tired right now to figure it out. Maybe tomorrow after I’m off work and free for a couple days.

  63. 63
    delosgatos says:

    @freelancer:

    …nowadays, any schmuck wearing a tricorder hat is pegged as a batshit, know-nothing, teabagging racist birther.

    A tricorder hat? Was that in a ST:TNG episode? :)

  64. 64
    Hiram Taine says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    Our culture is far more distrustful of central authority than many others

    Yeah, that’s why the war on drugs started in the Yoo Ess of A, because we are so distrustful of authority.

    The Land of the Free made a common damn weed illegal for absolutely no good reason (and lots of bad ones) and puts hundreds of thousands of people in cages every year for possessing or growing it and you want to tell us how distrustful of authority we are?

    And by and large it is the same people who want to carry their shootin’ irons into Starbucks that support the idiotic, uber-authoritarian and ridiculously counterproductive drug war.

    Jeezus X Keerist on a day glo pogo stick we are one fucked up culture..

  65. 65
    freelancer says:

    God, aside from growing consensus that HCR is inevitable, did today just utterly suck or what?

  66. 66
    Yutsano says:

    @freelancer: Other than I had to be conscious before the sun came up and I lost an hour of work because my bosses have shitty scheduling practices? Yeah, I think I’m inclined to agree with you. Definite woot on healthcare looking like it’s finally gonna happen.

  67. 67
    Andy K says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    …(the ancient Athenians would still say we are boot lickers for having representative Democracy) …

    You know what else they’d say? That our guarantees of certain rights to those in the political minority are foolish.

    Think I’m wrong? Read up on the trial of Socrates.

  68. 68
    freelancer says:

    @Yutsano:

    Don’t get me wrong, HCR is a huge get. If/when it passes and is signed, I be poppin champagne like we won the championship game.

    Everything else is just, well it makes me want to go shopping for a heavier mallet.

    ETA: Schadenfreude Two Wetsuits and a dildo ALERT:
    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....ntheon.php

  69. 69
    NobodySpecial says:

    Someone should market a T-shirt that says ‘Armed and I shoot rednecks’.

  70. 70

    @Calming Influence:

    As a Seattleite, Starbucks is like an frickin’ albatross around my neck. When I travel, total strangers try to hold me personally responsible for the overpriced, mediocre blandness served at Starbucks’ across the nation, and I’m sick of it.
    Either make it yourself, or go to Dunkin’ Donuts, but please please please just shut the fuck up. I ain’t gonna be your butt boy any more.
    The next time I fly and the person in the adjacent seat says “You’re from Seattle, huh? What’s up with Starbucks?” I’m gonna go Point Break on ‘em and drag them out of the plane at 35,000 feet.

    Oh please, shut the fuck up and get over your pissy little self. I’m so sick of pretentious twats like you who just hate, hate, hate, Starbucks and just love, love, love to prove their cred as fucktarded Seattle hipsters by telling everyone about it at the drop of a hat. Christ, you’re every bit as much of a pretentious, self-absorbed attention whore as any of the gun nutz who are currently whining because they can’t pack heat while they’re getting their Banana Frappucino.

  71. 71
    Ruckus says:

    Guns. Phft.
    Bruce Lee didn’t need a gun.
    How many Billion people in the world Don’t carry a gun? Ever. And live to tell about it. They don’t get the shit kicked out of themselves day in and day out, and most important they most likely have normal sized genitalia.
    I hope that some day I will see the end to the bullshit that we live in the wild west and only with steely eyed reserve, blue steel and hot lead will we be able to see the sunrise tomorrow.
    Individual freedom requires actual responsibility to the community one lives in, not just knowing how to dust off the Cheeto crumbs and operate a belt buckle.
    /soapbox

  72. 72
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Hiram Taine: With you on this one. Weed, BAD! Must put away perps forever. Guns? Have at it. If only the stupid dickless wonders (and I don’t mean the women) who feel the need to whip it out in public would keep it amongst themselves, then I would say let Darwinism take over (such as the Southern states who’ve decided it’s a nifty idea to allow guns into bars). However, as in the case of many drunk driving accidents, many of the shootees (yeah, just made it up) will be not involved in the fray in the first place.

    @YellowJournalism: I agree with your second point. These people who say, “If I were in that situation, I would have shot those motherfuckers” are the ones who would have pissed themselves and whimpered for their mommies if they had been in the actual situation. Again, if they feel the need to rant about it, they most likely aren’t gonna do it.

    @Yutsano: How you doing, honey? You still up?

  73. 73
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Ruckus: I like to say, with rights come responsibilities. Quaint, I know, but I’m old-fashioned in that way.

  74. 74
    Ruckus says:

    @asiangrrlMN:
    I am usually up at this time, one because I live about 10 miles from the pacific and two I don’t sleep a lot, but aren’t you in the eastern time zone? So my question is, what the hell are you doing still up?

  75. 75
    Nylund says:

    This is actually becoming a big deal in California. These people really get a kick out of people throwing a hissy fit, especially cops who don’t have a legal basis to object.

    The irony of course is that you are much more likely to die from a gun if you own a gun. The sad story of the woman in PA who made a big deal about showing up to her kid’s soccer game, gun in hand, later being part of a murder / suicide with her husband (I forget which spouse did the killing), is an example of this.

    As someone who moved from gun controlled Canada to Texas (only to be robbed at gunpoint), I know which world I preferred to live in. I liked the one where people walked around feeling safe at night, secure in knowing that the chances of a gun interrupting a casual were quite low.

    These people love the expression, “if you outlaw guns, then only the outlaws have guns,” but don’t they realize that “illegal” guns originated as an initially legal gun sale?

  76. 76
    slightly_peeved says:

    You may like that lower levels of violence in another culture, but might find the restrictions that are put on women to be intolerable.

    US women would be outraged to have the restrictions placed on them in, say, Europe, where they are forced to have the choice of abortion on demand and free birth control. US women are lucky to not face the spectre of government-funded maternity leave, as they do in many countries.

    Or having to struggle with the glass ceiling in places such as Germany, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, where they can only rise to such low positions as Chancellor, Governor-General, Deputy Prime Minister or Prime Minister. I mean, women in these countries have to deal with comprehensive anti-discrimination laws! How they manage, I don’t know.

    I mean, really? There are certainly cultural tradeoffs in comparing any two countries, but women’s rights? The rest of the world’s doing a bit better in that one, if you haven’t noticed.

  77. 77
    Tax Analyst says:

    @Quiddity:

    I’ll give you my cold, dead dick when you take it from my gun-wielding hands!

    Or something like that.

    You know, that was just about exactly what I was thinking at the top of this thread.

    Or something more or less like that.

  78. 78
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Ruckus: I am in the central time zone. I don’t sleep well. So, I am the doyenne of the late night threads. Welcome!

  79. 79
    Tax Analyst says:

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Hey there asiangrrlMN – looks like I’m leaving just as you are coming in.

    Going home now.

  80. 80
    Walter Sowchek says:

    Oh, please dear! For your information the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint!

    I’m staying. I’m finishing my coffee.

  81. 81
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @slightly_peeved: Thank you. You took the words right out of my mind. I did not know how to formulate this thought, and you did it very well. Personally, it’s a false trade-off to me, anyway. “Enjoy women’s rights with rampant gun usage or no women’s rights and no guns.”

    P.S. FYWP.

  82. 82
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Tax Analyst: Aw, shucks! Night. Busy season for you, so you need lots of rest.

  83. 83
    slightly_peeved says:

    What is so laughable in some of these threads is the insulting assumption that anybody not in uniform is an incompetent oaf (one has to wonder how we all manage to get into our cars and drive to work…) who will shoot everybody around them or even themselves, but will pose no threat to the awesome powers of the super-villain arch criminal.

    The criminal draws first. The criminal chooses when, and where, to attack.

    If your gun is holstered, what threat are you to a criminal who has already drawn and aimed their gun? What ability do you have to defend yourself in that situation?

  84. 84
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @slightly_peeved: I think you are more than slightly_peeved tonight, and I am glad for it. You’re on fire.

  85. 85
    slightly_peeved says:

    @asiangrrlMN:

    Thanks :). I got into arguing on the internet because of unfounded American assumptions about the rest of the world. Most of those assumptions seem to be about Health Care and Gun Control, so women’s rights (an area with some overlap with the Health Care debate) combined with gun control is right in my wheelhouse.

  86. 86
    JGabriel says:

    slightly_peeved:

    If your gun is holstered, what threat are you to a criminal who has already drawn and aimed their gun?

    Especially since, with the open carry, you’re the first one the criminal will be aiming for.

    .

  87. 87
    Blue Raven says:

    @Andy K:

    You know what else they’d say? That our guarantees of certain rights to those in the political minority are foolish.

    That statement by the Athenians coming after, “What the hell are you idiots thinking giving women and the lower classes the vote?”

    And I’m a gun owner who, even if I were comfortable enough shooting a gun from a quick draw that I’d feel capable of open carry, would not. Why? I define it as “scaring the horses.” Someone somewhere would freak out and assume I’m going to rob the place if I openly pack heat. Period. So not in the mood to face that kind of bullshit.

    PS – The largest majority of gun owners neither kill or are killed with guns. Just to put that out there alongside the usual “more likely to be killed” meme that always pops up. And yes, that’s WITH, not by, as guns never pull their own triggers and only fire without a finger on a trigger because some human was stupid enough to create those conditions.

  88. 88

    All you liberals are missing the point. Wondering around in public with a gun is the ultimate way to avoid conversations with people you don’t want to. My god , I was in Starbucks the other day and some random jerk who happened to have been on the same pop warner football team just starts talking to me out of nowhere. God it was an awkward and annoying conversation. “How are you? What do you do for a living now? I never thought for a minute that you were guilty for murdering your entire family in their sleep”. God just yak yak yak yak. Its not as if I don’t try to make myself unapproachable. I don’t shower every day. I wear shirts with expletives on them, I sit watch around watching hard core pornography on my laptop while sipping my latte at Starbucks. If I had remembered to bring my assault rifle I could have scared him and everybody else off with no effort at all.

  89. 89
    slightly_peeved says:

    @Blue Raven:

    And the Spartans would say “why do you pussies need guns? You got a problem with someone, you just kick them into a well. In your underwear.”

  90. 90
    bago says:

    As a Seattlite, I feel compelled to weigh in. However, as a former libertarian who dated the daughter of a Starbucks muckity muck, and had a psycho murder a few of my friends in a mass murder out here… I don’t think I can make a meanngful comment without invoking some kind of Godwin. A shame really.

  91. 91
    Nora Carrington says:

    Baristers [sic; it’s barristers] may or may not be armed with hot milk. Starbucks (and now everybody else) calls the folks who work the steam wands “baristas.”

    Nora, from Seattle

  92. 92
    Batocchio says:

    But Anne Laurie, if you take away their penises, the terrorists win. Or if the terrorists have penises, they win. Anyway, they’ve very scared, and you not pretending they’re manly doesn’t help any. It drives them to write books like Liberal Fascism. And that makes the Baby Reagan cry. Or something. Haven’t you considered their needs? More War Porn!

    Also, too.

  93. 93
    numbskull says:

    @celticdragonchick:” It isn’t like a buffet where you just get to pick what you want.”

    Yes it is. It is EXACTLY like a buffet where you get to pick what you want. What do you think the entire point of government and legislation is? What do you think the impetus is?

    Competing needs and desires of the people can result in many outcomes; some include violent confrontation. We minimize that by forming societal structures based on rules. How do we arrive at those rules?

    Here and in many countries, we try (emphasis on “try”) to do this with a form of representative government. We elect people who, ostensibly, carry out the will of the people. What does that mean? It means we pick and choose, like at a buffet, what rights we reserve from societal purview and what rights we are willing to have regulated. We reserve the right to free speech, but it’s against the law to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater, etc.

    Other societies, possibly the ones you reference, ALSO have a buffet approach. However, they base their approach on religious law rather than representative government. There are some rights that are not regulated, arguably much fewer than here, and there are rights that are regulated. I don’t agree with this approach. It’s a crap deal for both genders, but women have it much worse. Nonetheless, it is also a buffet.

    Your either-or/neither-nor argument simply is not true.

  94. 94
    A Mom Anon says:

    There’s a town in my neck of the woods that has a law on the books requiring each household own a gun. I’ve never heard of it being enforced,but there ya go. I believe the Instanitwit perfessor blogger guy praised this town a year or two ago for having low crime rates attributed to said gun ownership rules. I call bullshit because:

    He assumed everyone there actually owns a gun. Not true,I know that from personal experience. This is an area with lots of families with little kids in big McMansions. They may drive expensive SUVs and luxury cars,but not all of them own guns. Which is a good thing,believe me.

    Second,there’s been some pretty ugly gun related crime in that little burg including a recent workplace shooting,a couple of rape/murders and armed bank robberies so I have no clue where the perfessor got his stats.

    Anyone needing to open carry in a freaking Starbucks just to prove they can is a walking advertisement for gun control laws. In my silly little opinion,this is about intimidating liberals who they stupidly think never own guns. Gawd the overall IQ of this country seems to drop a point damned near every day.

  95. 95
    Tattoosydney says:

    @slightly_peeved:

    Thankyou. I had the same reaction, but didn’t have the time or the words to respond.

  96. 96
    celticdragonchick says:

    @slightly_peeved:

    US women would be outraged to have the restrictions placed on them in, say, Europe, where they are forced to have the choice of abortion on demand and free birth control. US women are lucky to not face the spectre of government-funded maternity leave, as they do in many countries.

    We are dealing with generalizations, but see just what the sexist assumptions are of any country that has gender-based determinations assigned to nouns in the language.

    You might be surprised. I will agree that the laws in Europe in often progressive, but that is not the same thing as social mores. That is partially the point of what we are discussing here.

  97. 97
    celticdragonchick says:

    @numbskull:

    Yes it is. It is EXACTLY like a buffet where you get to pick what you want. What do you think the entire point of government and legislation is? What do you think the impetus is?

    Culture and laws are not the same thing. I was talking about cultural mores and expectations.

  98. 98

    To AMA:

    “In my silly little opinion . . . ”

    Indeed. How long have you lived in the South, Honey? Girl, you better get yourself out of there now or resign to becoming a Southern Belle. :)

    I was born and raised in the South. It took me a while to make my escape [as a rule, Yankees are better lovers]. But I still recognize the signs of creeping southern-ness.

    Southern Belles, by the way, are not necessarily peaceful and nonviolent. You wouldn’t have to give up any of your fire.

  99. 99
    A Mom Anon says:

    @Linda Featheringill: Girl,if I could leave I would. Sometimes home ownership sucks because you really can’t just up and leave. There is however no danger of me becoming a Southern Belle,lol. I’m from Ohio,I don’t “do”southern very well. I have lived here exactly half my life now,and I still shake my head with wonder at some of the stuff that goes on down here.

  100. 100
    Mumphrey says:

    @ Freelancer:

    This is why I believe all Republican politicians are presumptively gay unless they conclusively prove otherwise. I’m just waiting to hear about Rick Santorum getting caught in an airport bathroom or something.

  101. 101
    Dimmic Rat says:

    Gun ownership is important. Without the firearm we would still be at the mercy of mounted nobility wearing steel armor.

    There’s a reason why the Catholic church pushed so hard to ban guns at their invention, and it wasn’t because they were interested in peace.

    There is no reason to carry a gun in public though. Either get a conceal carry permit, or keep that shit secured in your home. The wingnuts remind me of my father, who used to tuck me in at night and say “Remember son, one day they’re going to come pouring over the hill and we’re going to have to jump up and shoot them down.”

  102. 102
    WereBear says:

    @A Mom Anon: I hear ya. I fled the Midwest at the age of eight, and while it wasn’t my decision, I’m glad. Then I fled the South at nineteen, which definitely was my decision, and have been rattling around the NorthEast ever since.

    And now I’m in the Adirondack Park, and it feels like home. Go figure.

  103. 103
    Shamash says:

    I think most of the commenters are missing the point. If carry is legal (open, or concealed w/permit), a business still has the right to have a “no guns” policy. The decision by Starbucks is not about encouraging open flashing of guns in these states, it is merely saying “if you can legally carry a gun, we trust you with it on our premises and will not turn away your business.” It’s aimed at the sort of people who would frequent someplace else if the policy were different, because these people are respecting the right of the business to set their own “firearms on premises” policy. In a down economy, maybe they are just trying to grab an extra fraction of a percent of business that might go elsewhere if they had a “no guns” policy.

    snark on/ Would you honestly feel safer in the Starbucks knowing that the gun-toting hordes were safely contained at the edge of the parking lot, and that you were most assuredly made bulletproof by the impenetrable combination of property line and plate glass? /snark off

    The people who would you see carrying (or not see, if carrying concealed) are the same people you would encounter everywhere else in public. They aren’t all saying to themselves “Ma, I need a frappachino, fetch me my quick-draw rig!” Why is their imminent invasion of Starbucks a concern?

    And note that this is absolutely irrelevant to any larger discussion of whether people should be allowed to carry guns (openly or otherwise) in public. It is merely an extension and clarification of the status quo in these localities and I fail to see how it is a big deal. Every major retail chain ought to have the information available. That way people on both sides of the issue can vote with their feet and wallets.

  104. 104
    A Mom Anon says:

    @WereBear: The Adirondacks are lovely,I’m actually from the foothills of Appalachia(SE Ohio)and I miss the forests and mountains alot. I really hope there’s enough of an economic recovery in the next couple of years so we can move the hell outta here. I originally moved here for work in the 80’s during the huge boom,met The Husband,settled down and had a family. There was a time when this particular area wasn’t urban sprawl and was still fairly rural and loaded with trees and farms. Now it’s overdeveloped and ugly.

  105. 105
    greennotGreen says:

    Somewhat off-topic, but re: celticdragonchick at 97:
    “…see just what the sexist assumptions are of any country that has gender-based determinations assigned to nouns in the language.”

    The gender of nouns is completely unrelated to the gender of humans. For example, Swahili has 16 genders, but I’ve never read of the peoples who speak Swahili having 16 separate genders social roles associated with sex.

    Before I understood this difference between the meanings of “gender”, I asked some speakers of languages with masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns whether the gender of the nouns influenced how they thought about the objects, whether they thought of the objects as male or female. They had no idea what I was talking about. Not scientific, I know, but there it is.

  106. 106
    Morbo says:

    Grover Norquist after reading this thread, pyramiding his fingers like Mister Burns: “Excellent.”

  107. 107
    patrick says:

    Oh John, John, John…ye of short memory. The wingunt gun toters won’t go near Dunkin’ Donuts, because they’re terrified of the Rachel Ray Jihadists that Malkin exposed in 2008….

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24860437/

  108. 108
    RedKitten says:

    One of these guys (might even have been the President of OpenCarry) was interviewed by CBC’s As It Happens today, if you want to listen. It’s at the 09:13 mark of that WMA stream. He was trying to sound reasonable to Canadians, who couldn’t figure out his rationale at all. I can’ t either; I seriously doubt any non-trained person with a gun is going to be helpful in a shooting incident.

    Well yeah. It wouldn’t make sense to most of us. Over a quarter of our country’s population owns guns, with many of them owning multiple guns. But these are rifles. For hunting, target shooting, or for pinging the asses of those fucking raccoons that keep trying to get into your bird feeder at 3am, or sometimes just for sentimental value (I know many people who never shoot, but who keep their grandfather’s guns.) Only 2.3% of our population owns handguns.

    So many people in your country who buy guns do so for the express purpose of using it on another human being (i.e. home defense). And if you’re not home, then what the fuck do you need to be carrying around a gun for?

  109. 109
    R-Jud says:

    @Shamash:

    I think most of the commenters are missing the point. If carry is legal (open, or concealed w/permit), a business still has the right to have a “no guns” policy. The decision by Starbucks is not about encouraging open flashing of guns in these states, it is merely saying “if you can legally carry a gun, we trust you with it on our premises and will not turn away your business.”

    Thank you. I read the linked article and a few other articles about the issue, and didn’t think this was much of a story. More of a photo-op: LOLZ WINGNUTS WITH LATTES.

    OT: who wants cupcakes? I got about a dozen left over.

  110. 110
    El Cid says:

    I have some friends who own pistols and insist on carrying them with them. One of their concerns — once you grant the weird notion that they must carry their pistols every where, should the need to shoot someone arise — is that if they left the gun in the car, it could be stolen.

    Which certainly is a realistic fear, presuming you expect your car to get broken into.

    So there’s a whole chain of decisions which once taken press you to take this deadly weapon with you every where.

  111. 111
    El Cid says:

    @R-Jud: I kid you not — I have heard the 2nd Half of the 2nd Amendment brigades comparing private businesses not being able to deny entry to Firearm-Americans to the laws preventing private businesses from denying entry to African-Americans.

  112. 112
    soonergrunt says:

    @greennotGreen: Although a recent study that I heard about on NPR (yay, NPR!) of multi-gendered languages showed some differences–
    Bridge, for example is a noun that takes the feminine gender in german and the masculine gender in another language (spanish, was the one they used, iirc) and the test subjects were asked to use adjectives to the noun, with no photographic or other visual cues.
    The Germans almost universally used “feminine” adjectives such as beautiful, graceful, elegant, and so on.
    The Spaniards (or whoever it was) almost universally used “masculine” adjectives such as strong, powerful, massive, sturdy, and so on.
    One’s language does affect how one perceives and describes the world because thoughts cannot be fully formed without language. People might not do it conciously, but they do it whether they want to or not.

  113. 113

    @celticdragonchick:

    I intend to get a CCW myself, since I have run into one too many GLBT bashers who thought I might be an evenings entertainment as a punching/stabbing/whatever target.

    Gays with guns.

    That should strike fear into the hearts of the fundies who support the second amendment. I can see them saying, well we didn’t want everyone to have a gun.

  114. 114
    R-Jud says:

    @El Cid: Why, yes! Choosing to carry a gun is exactly the same as choosing to be born black.

    /bangs head against desk

  115. 115
    Randy P says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    don’t fantasize about killing people, personally. I was a helicopter door gunner, and the reality of that job was quite enough.

    Then I don’t think you qualify as an untrained civilian. Or somebody with unfulfilled Clint Eastwood fantasies.

    I believe we’re all imagining being in the Starbucks with an armed Teabagger chicken-hawk type who sees some perceived threat, leaps up from his laptop where he was quietly reading right wing blogs, firing off angry letters to the editor of the Philly Inquirer (we seem to get a lot of mouth breathers here), and sipping his manly double frappo-dappo-cino with 10 extra sugars, and starts spraying his legal concealed assault weapon around.

  116. 116
    soonergrunt says:

    @Bob (Not B.o.B.): That’s precisely what they say. It is one of the ironies of gun ownership issues that gun control was embraced by the right wing in this country in the 1870s-1970s time frame because they didn’t want the darkies getting decent guns. Most of the gun-ownership legislation in Oklahoma until the 1990s was in response to the Tulsa race riots because there were pictures and stories of Blacks (many of whom were WWI veterans) carrying and using guns.

  117. 117
    Honus says:

    Anybody openly carrying a gun into Starbucks (or anywhere else) to “make a point” or “exercise a right” is inherently unqualified to carry a weapon. This is a fundamentally improper use of a firearm.
    Like your dick, you only take out your gun if you are prepared to use it. You don’t openly carry it into a coffee bar to scare the liberals. This identifies you as a cheap tin can that shouldn’t be allowed near anything as powerful as a Model 29 or to use the other common penis substitute, a Porsche Turbo Carrera.

  118. 118
    The Moar You Know says:

    Hilariously enough, I can comment as a former employee.

    Oddly enough, employees are specifically forbidden to carry firearms anywhere on the store premises. I wonder why that is?

  119. 119
    toujoursdan says:

    I am a Canadian who briefly lived in Texas in the 90s.

    The whole gun mentality still mystifies me. I worked with a bunch of college educated, urban types and when the subject of guns came up during a group lunch I found out (to my horror) that almost all of my co-workers owned handguns. When I asked “Why?” the answer was “For protection”. None of them had any faith that the police would protect them and the rationale seemed to revolved around a movie-like scenario where a criminal would break into their house and they would shoot the guy before they were hurt, kidnapped or killed.

    So then I started asking questions:

    “Wow. So everyone owns a gun except me. Do you keep bullets in the gun?”
    “Gosh. No. We have kids.”
    “Do you keep the gun handy?”
    “Gosh. No. We don’t want our kids taking the gun and using it as a toy. It’s locked up in the closet/under the bed.”
    “Ummmmm… So how can you protect yourself during a home invasion or a mugging? They generally rely on surprise.”
    [Defensively] “Well, it’s for protection”
    “But if you can’t get to it quickly and it’s not loaded. How can it protect you?”
    [Defensively] “It’s there just in case.”
    “Do you know anyone who has been a victim of a home invasion or mugging and successfully used their gun to defend themselves?”
    “No.”
    [toujoursdan puzzled]

    I understand that it’s a right and that the Supreme Court of the US has interpreted this right to mean private individual ownership, but I don’t understand why someone, particularly in an urban environment would want to carry a gun.

    I also wish that if Americans wanted to assert their rights, they’d start with the 6th or 7th amendment instead of the 2nd.

  120. 120
    someguy says:

    Guns: a pill for what ails you, if what ails you is insecurity about the size of your pecker.

  121. 121
    Ash Can says:

    @RedKitten:

    what the fuck do you need to be carrying around a gun for?

    You have to go to Starbucks with the dick you have, rather than the dick you wish you had.

  122. 122
    demo woman says:

    OT.. According to the Page, Mrs. Palin is writing a new book.

    Sarah Palin’s new book, currently untitled, will be a celebration of American virtues and strengths. Palin will reflect on the key values—both national and spiritual—that have been such a profound part of her life and which continue to inform her vision of the future. The book will include selections from classic and contemporary readings that have inspired her,

    What will the title of the book be?
    Run, Spot,Sarah, Run.

  123. 123

    If I want a gun for home protection, I am getting a shotgun, not a pistol.

    I won’t miss with the shotgun and the pellets won’t travel through six houses before striking a neighbor’s child.

  124. 124
    demo woman says:

    @R-Jud: She is so cute and the cupcake looks delish!!

  125. 125
    Svensker says:

    I still don’t get why the wingers are all hot to trot about everybody being able to carry guns in parks, Starbucks, etc. But having a freaking meltdown if someone brings an oversized toothpaste tube on an airplane.

    Is there an explanation?

  126. 126
    Ash Can says:

    @demo woman: That blockquote has got to be the all-time world’s record for total amount of shit stuffed into a single paragraph.

  127. 127
    soonergrunt says:

    @toujoursdan:
    That’s just the thing.
    I keep hunting arms. A nice rifle, a couple of shotguns. I own a couple of handguns. I haven’t been hunting in years, and I haven’t gone recreational target shooting either. I also have an alarm system in my house. The alarm will get the police here in plenty of time to take care of business. All a loaded gun in the house is going to do is accidentally kill or hurt someone. All the guns are secured because frankly, they’re far more likely to be the targets of the thief than they are to be used against the thief.
    The fact that my next door neighbor, and several other neighbors are cops who park their cruisers at their houses probably does more to repel thieves than anything else is nice, too.

    I spent 22 years with and around high-powered firearms that were designed specifically to kill other human beings. I used them for that purpose on more than one occasion, and it’s a lot harder to do than people think it is, even for someone as highly trained and psychologically conditioned as I was. I was Lead Trainer for Marksmanship and Safety in my old unit. To me, a firearm, like any weapon, is a tool. I don’t carry a handgun around for the same reason that I don’t carry a fucking hammer around.

  128. 128
    demo woman says:

    @Ash Can: Then Halperin beat his own record. If she is writing about classics that she has read, the book is not going to be very long.

  129. 129
    Michael says:

    You have to go to Starbucks with the dick you have, rather than the dick you wish you had.

    Wins the internet today.

  130. 130
    Ash Can says:

    @Bob (Not B.o.B.):

    Gays with guns.

    Hell, I’d like to see some mosques organize gun clubs. Then you’d see places like South Carolina, Arkansas, and parts of Texas turn into one big river of sewage.

  131. 131
    soonergrunt says:

    @Bob (Not B.o.B.): and NOTHING gets the attention of a thief or other type like the sound of a shotgun being racked. EVERYBODY knows what that sound is.

  132. 132
    soonergrunt says:

    @demo woman: more like a pamphlet.

  133. 133
    elmo says:

    @toujoursdan:

    None of them had any faith that the police would protect them…

    That’s because the police won’t. That’s not what the police are for. The police are for arresting violent criminals after the crime is committed; it’s just not reasonable to expect the police to interrupt crimes in progress on a regular basis.

    “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.”

    I’ve never used my guns to fend off an actual home invasion, but I have used a gun defensively. Didn’t fire it; didn’t have to. Two men pulled up into my (long, rural) driveway at one in the morning and sat in the idling car, staring at the house. The headlights pulling into the driveway woke me up. No reason for them to be there whatsoever. So I pulled down the shotgun from the wall rack, turned on the porch light, and stepped outside where they could see me, carrying the shotgun. They left in a hurry.

    Oh, and I’m a woman living openly with my female partner in the South. So I might be a little sensitive to threats.

  134. 134
    someguy says:

    Hell, I’d like to see some mosques organize gun clubs. Then you’d see places like South Carolina, Arkansas, and parts of Texas turn into one big river of sewage.

    Ahh, perhaps we’ve overlooked a method of dealing with both the NRA, and Al Qaida, that both groups would find satisfactory. Pen ’em up in the South and let ’em go at it. Winner gets to keep Mississippi. And the Ole Miss mascot.

  135. 135
    soonergrunt says:

    @elmo:
    And I’ll tell you that you are still in a small minority of people who would actually have a honest-to-goodness use for a firearm for that purpose.
    Even if I didn’t have a bunch of cops living in my neighborhood, neither I nor my neighbors need firearms for home defense. That’s what alarm systems are for and most alarm systems are not much more expensive than a new firearm. Even here in Okie-central, houses built in the last ten years have built-in alarm systems pretty standard.

  136. 136
    SRW1 says:

    @demo woman:

    The book will include selections from classic and contemporary readings that have inspired her,

    What, she’s going for cut and paste? Was having her ghostwriter suck it out of his/her fingers too much of a drag on the projected bottom line?

  137. 137
    bemused says:

    Thinking about the area I live in, I would say that those people who would be thrilled & eager to walk around openly with a gun on their belts are usually the last people you want to see doing so. I think that’s the case no matter where one lives.

  138. 138
    toujoursdan says:

    @elmo:

    I have to completely disagree with that.

    Police do more than arrest offenders after that the fact. They patrol. They keep the peace. They arrest criminals for other crimes and get them off the street before home invasions and muggings occur.

    I still don’t see the point of keeping guns when the danger of misuse (by criminals or kids) is present yet the “protection” that guns provide is minimal at best. But it’s obvious that Americans think differently than the rest of us.

  139. 139
    sparky says:

    @soonergrunt: the one downside of people not understanding how difficult it is (except perhaps in a moment of unhinged anger) to first intend to kill, and then load, aim, and accurately fire a gun with sufficient power to kill a human with one shot is that it allows a fraction of the population of a country with over 300,000,000 people in it to persist in pretending to themselves that they are living a life on the edge of the frontier. perhaps it makes them feel less like they are the serfs of the oligarchy that, in truth, they are.

    i could blame Hollywood as these people are reverting to childhood imagery but that would be a cop-out. apparently, living in America means you never have to grow up.

  140. 140
    Geoff Alnutt says:

    Oh yes, I’ll have a latte and a shot!

  141. 141
    elmo says:

    @soonergrunt:

    Sooner, I appreciate what you’re saying, but all an alarm system does is yell. And what it yells is “Help, bring guns!.” First, the police have no obligation whatsoever — none — to respond to it right away, later on, or at all. There’s actual Supreme Court precedent to that effect. And second, if I’m going to yell “Help, bring guns,” why not have one myself?

    But to address the thread topic, I will say that the idiots who insist on open carry are really doing it for the same reason that they do everything else — to piss off liberals. Douchebags, all of ’em. And open carrying an unloaded gun, so you can piss off liberals but not actually protect yourself? Douchebags on stilts, wearing clown shoes.

  142. 142
    The Moar You Know says:

    I won’t miss with the shotgun and the pellets won’t travel through six houses before striking a neighbor’s child.

    @Bob (Not B.o.B.): Actually, you probably will miss at the kind of close ranges we’re talking about (a shotgun is not a garden hose), and pellets big enough to kill someone will go through quite a lot, it turns out.

  143. 143
    The Moar You Know says:

    I won’t miss with the shotgun and the pellets won’t travel through six houses before striking a neighbor’s child.

    @Bob (Not B.o.B.): Actually, you probably will miss at the kind of close ranges we’re talking about (a shotgun is not a garden hose), and pellets big enough to kill someone will go through quite a lot, it turns out.

  144. 144
    Hypnos says:

    “We are dealing with generalizations, but see just what the sexist assumptions are of any country that has gender-based determinations assigned to nouns in the language.

    You might be surprised. I will agree that the laws in Europe in often progressive, but that is not the same thing as social mores. That is partially the point of what we are discussing here.”

    That would be the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and in the strongly deterministic interpretation you’re using here, it has been throuroughly disputed. True, language does affect some cognitive functions – especially those related to the perception of space and color – but it has a negligible influence on social issues such as sexism, which are far more culturally influenced.

    Within my country, Italy, levels of sexism vary dramatically between different regions – specifically, between the more religious, conservative and traditional South, and the more progressive North. I believe the same differences can be found in the United States.

    And again, if such a strong theory of language was true, one would expect the gender of nouns to reflect the actual human gender they could be more easily associated to. Water, for example, is widely believed to entail a subconscious association to the feminine – due to memories of the womb’s environment. And it is in fact a feminine noun in Italian – but a masculine one in Spanish, suggesting culture has in fact a stronger influece on language rather than the other way around. War, on the other hand, is feminine in both languages, as are strength, violence, and even erection!

    Finally, there are extremely sexist societies – such as China – that do not have a gender based language.

  145. 145
    twiffer says:

    this is why i just walk around with my cock hanging out.

    seriously though, who are these paranoid gits who feel the need to carry guns around? are they that fearful? i’ll admit, i always have a pocket knife on me, mostly to cut up apples at lunch. but a knife is a useful tool, whereas a gun is solely a weapon. unless you are subsiting on squirrels and pigeons, i can’t think of a sensible reason to be carrying a gun around.

  146. 146
    soonergrunt says:

    @elmo:Oh, I don’t argue that point at all. But the thing is that someone like you, who doesn’t live in my rather close neighborhood (long driveway and isolation and all) probably does actually need a gun more than I do.
    Here’s the thing–I don’t need a gun for home defense because the cops WILL come when the alarm goes off, and they’ll be here in relatively short order. The “protected by *** alarm company” sticker with an updated alarm license sticker does more to deter would-be thieves than anything else.
    If anyone were to invade my home for any other purpose with me present it would almost certainly be with the intent of killing me or my wife, and frankly there’s not a whole lot I can do about that. I have to sleep some time and some place after all.
    So here I am. I don’t have anything in this middle-class neighborhood that makes me stand out. I have alarm company stickers on windows (and a paid-up alarm bill) and like some oklahomans, I have an armored room in my home for a tornado shelter. I have homeowner’s insurance because I know from experience that taking a life is pretty fucking serious and my property isn’t worth that.
    I also have lots of cops in my neighborhood, which is the reason I bought here and not on the other side of the interstate for the exact same house design.

    As far as the other part–yeah. It’s primarily to piss people off and to scare people. It’s like how the smallest guy in the barracks always had this billy-badass attitude that just made most of us shake our heads.

  147. 147

    Off topic.

    My sick friend seems to have given up and is withdrawing.

    Bob Seger, Heavy Music, expresses how I feel.

    When you got a heartache there ain’t nothing you can do
    When you got a heartache late at night
    Ain’t a thing you can do

    Charlie knows

    There ain’t nothing you can do
    There ain’t nothing you can do
    There ain’t nothing you can do
    There ain’t nothing you can do
    There ain’t nothing you can do
    There ain’t nothing you can do
    There ain’t nothing you can do
    There ain’t nothing you can do

    [No, not necessarily the end. But closer.]

  148. 148
    Honus says:

    @Shamash:

    “The people who would you see carrying (or not see, if carrying concealed) are the same people you would encounter everywhere else in public. They aren’t all saying to themselves “Ma, I need a frappachino, fetch me my quick-draw rig!” Why is their imminent invasion of Starbucks a concern?”
    As I said above, Anybody openly carrying a gun into Starbucks (or anywhere else) to “make a point” or “exercise a right” is inherently unqualified to carry a weapon. I feel unsafe around any individual that would want to openly carry a gun into Starbucks.
    In places like Fairfax, where this started, it’s not customary or useful to openly carry a weapon, and only some squirrelly jerk would do so, unlike say a farmer in a Crozet mom-and-pop store with his copperhead gun on his belt who came in to buy a sweet pop on hot summer day.

  149. 149
    MBunge says:

    “But it’s obvious that Americans think differently than the rest of us.”

    Yup, and that “different thinking” is what allowed us to step and stop the rape, murder and ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia after civilized Europe sat on its ass for years and did nothing about it.

    Mike

  150. 150
    numbskull says:

    @celticdragonchick: “Culture and laws are not the same thing. I was talking about cultural mores and expectations.”

    You’ve lost me here. I have no clue what that statement means in relationship to your previous statements on this topic. Please clarify.

  151. 151
    TrevorB says:

    I don’t defend open-carriers, but as a frequent camper in bear country, I do understand the need for large caliber hand guns. Just to preempt anyone, bearspray don’t do shat.

  152. 152
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    I dunno, thinking about standing around waiting for your coffee and having to witness what happens to the banana in the process of being turned into a frappuccino, I can understand why some guys might want a little symbolic reinforcement.

  153. 153
    soonergrunt says:

    @TrevorB: Not many bears running around Fairfax, VA or Memphis, TN or other urban centers where this ignorance is happening.
    Now, I can see where you’re coming from in Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, and places like that in some cases, but that’s not where this ignorance is taking place.

  154. 154
    Hypnos says:

    “Yup, and that “different thinking” is what allowed us to step and stop the rape, murder and ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia after civilized Europe sat on its ass for years and did nothing about it.

    Mike”

    We’re kind of like an ex-alcoholic. We were pretty big on rape, murder and genocide a mere 60 years ago. Had been for 2000 years and more. We’re afraid that even some moderate warring would have us fall right back into the loop. The Germans especially. And with various European weaklings now queing up to see if they can borrow a spare billion or ten from the Bundesbank, they must be seriously wondering what’s the point of not having a European empire if you still end up paying for it.

    Except for the Italians, of course. We gave up making deserts and calling it peace in 476 AD and didn’t bother with a functional military since. Served us nice, you just wait it out and when the winner is clear, you jump on his wagon.

    Works like a charm.

  155. 155
    Comrade Dread says:

    I know I’m late to the thread, but I don’t understand the mentality of people who wish to flaunt their legal rights in public manners.

    I mean, yes, it’s great you have the right to do something, but when you’re doing it in a manner that is obviously designed to provoke a response and make people uncomfortable, you’re just being a jerk.

  156. 156
    "Fair and Balanced" Dave says:

    @Xenos:

    I am just so appalled that there exists such a thing as a banana frappuchino that I don’t care if he were armed with a handgun or a couple rabid hedgehogs. Chasing down that thing with a cinnabon is just unnatural and intolerable.

    I’ll give up my rabid hedgehogs when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

  157. 157
    someguy says:

    We were pretty big on rape, murder and genocide a mere 60 years ago.

    We’re still pretty big on it, just we usually farm it out to defense contractors or allied nations nowadays.

  158. 158
    Corner Stone says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    I don’t understand the mentality of people who wish to flaunt their legal rights in public manners.

    Me too! Man, I hate it when people celebrate their legal rights.

  159. 159
    toujoursdan says:

    @elmo:

    But I am still confused.

    Let’s say for the sake of argument that these men were home invaders (as opposed to being lost or confused and freaked out that someone showed up with a gun). If it was common knowledge that people in your area owned guns, wouldn’t the incentive be, for a criminal of that nature, to buy more, bigger and more effective guns, like assault and military style weapons? They are freely available at gun shows along with bullet resistant vests. And wouldn’t the incentive then be for both criminals and victims to resort to lethal violence quicker in order to gain the upper hand or out of fear that the other would do so first?

    I just can’t envisage a scenario where a highly armed population is safer than a gun restricted population. It seems to just escalate use of violence and its effectiveness in a society. Add to this that many of America’s school, workplace and public shootings are done by people with no history of criminal behaviour who just snapped and used an easily obtainable weapon. And add to this all the children who die of inadvertent gun violence. It doesn’t seem like freedom and safety to me.

    But again, this may be a cultural difference. I could never figure out why so many people in the South held up a libertarian society with an armed population as an ideal. Those societies exist: rural Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, parts of Mexico and Colombia but they aren’t exactly paradises.

  160. 160
    BetsyD says:

    A few weeks ago I was in my local Panera and another patron was wearing a beret with a swastika on it and a martial arts outfit. I guess he was just exercising his 1st Amendment rights. But if I were the manager of that Panera I sure wouldn’t want a guy like that patronizing my establishment.

  161. 161
    toujoursdan says:

    @MBunge: While you assisted or sat on your hands in doing these things in Columbia, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Indonesia and Israel and with the Native Americans in your own backyard, you mean.

  162. 162
    ChrisB says:

    @freelancer:
    @delosgatos:

    Yeah, someone seen wearing a tricorder hat would be pegged as a geeky, Star Trek-loving nerd.

    The wearer of a tricorne hat might be viewed differently.

  163. 163
    Dave Ruddell says:

    Pen ‘em up in the South and let ‘em go at it. Winner gets to keep Mississippi. And the Ole Miss mascot.

    Admiral Ackbar?

  164. 164
    elmo says:

    @toujoursdan:
    If the “criminal element” were an organized gang, then yes, what you’re saying makes perfect sense. But by and large, we aren’t talking about anything organized or planned. Really, we’re talking about the kind of people for whom the very concept of organization and planning is totally alien.

    The vast, vast, overwhelmingly vast majority of criminals are short-sighted idiots who can barely hold a single purpose in their heads for ten minutes at a time. Very many of them are high. Most crimes are committed on the spur of the moment.

    You are correct that a gun would not help against a well-armed, well-organized crew of prepared home invaders with bulletproof vests, which is why people who shoot back at SWAT teams usually get killed. But Rocky and JimBob, bored, tweaking, hungry and broke, armed with a knife and a tire iron? Yeah, I’ll take my chances against them.

    FBI statistics also show that most criminal assaults are not committed with guns at all, but with fists, feet, knives, and other weapons. You are, in fact, four times as likely to be assaulted in the US with something other than a gun.

    Going back to my particular case, if these fellows were lost and confused, they were really confused — I live at the very end of a dead-end road, in a rural area with narrow and winding lanes, far from any commercial enterprises. They had zero business being on my driveway at all, let alone idling there, and if they were in fact lost, they would have turned around long before they got to my driveway — the road I live on is dark, private, and very obviously does not go anywhere.

  165. 165
    toujoursdan says:

    @elmo:

    But arming the population would just incentivize criminals to find another way to gain power over other people in order to get what they want. Tweaked out Jim and Bob robbing a liquor store or doing a street mugging are probably resort to lethal force more quickly if they think you’ll do the same. It may lead to more gang style crime, as it did in Mexico. So this doesn’t really address the concern. It just moves the type and level of violence up a notch.

    I don’t think it’s a coincidence that gun restricted societies in Europe, Canada, Japan and Australia and other places have much lower homicide levels than the U.S.

    I’ll take the restrictions on gun ownership that give my hometown Ottawa a 0.93/100,000 murder rate over the 19.9/100,000 murder rate that Dallas had.

  166. 166

    […] gays with guns, quote of the day, quoteable Brittany-Ann 11:31 am From celticdragonchick at this post on ballon-juice.com: …I intend to get a CCW myself, since I have run into one too many GLBT […]

  167. 167
    celticdragonchick says:

    @soonergrunt:

    @Bob (Not B.o.B.): That’s precisely what they say. It is one of the ironies of gun ownership issues that gun control was embraced by the right wing in this country in the 1870s-1970s time frame because they didn’t want the darkies getting decent guns. Most of the gun-ownership legislation in Oklahoma until the 1990s was in response to the Tulsa race riots because there were pictures and stories of Blacks (many of whom were WWI veterans) carrying and using guns.

    Yep. We studies that in some depth in the African American history class I had last semester.

    The racists were shitting their pants at the thought of black people being able to defend themselves from lynchings. That’s when you saw gun control as a deliberate part of the era from the post civil war up through Jim Crow as an effort to disenfranchise and segregate African Americans.

  168. 168
    elmo says:

    @toujoursdan:
    I still think you’re giving the criminal element too much credit for planning and forethought. But I also think the thread’s tired and we aren’t going to convince each other, so I’ll congratulate you on the hockey gold and leave it at that. :-)

  169. 169
    BetsyD says:

    @toujoursdan:

    The most violent societies tend to be those that are most hierarchical–unless there’s some other cultural force that can help manage the shame that results from living in a hierarchical society. I highly recommend James Gilligan’s book Violence: Reflections on an American Epidemic, which talks about this phenomenon. It’s why we’re the developed country with the highest rates of violence: we’re the most unequal of modern developed societies.

  170. 170
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Bob (Not B.o.B.):

    If I want a gun for home protection, I am getting a shotgun, not a pistol.
    I won’t miss with the shotgun and the pellets won’t travel through six houses before striking a neighbor’s child.

    Quite true. Over-penetration of rounds is a huge issue that guns owners should be aware of. You don’t want a damned bullet going through 3 walls and ending up down the block

    Police officers have had problems along this line as well.

    Also, since you brought it up, I am proposing a chapter of Pink Pistols here in Greensboro where I live. I am a transgendered woman, and I have been threatened with injury in person several times and my spouse and family have been harassed and stalked. Something like 60% of transwomen have reported being assaulted or assaulted/raped.

    I have escaped that statistic by the skin of my teeth so far, and I am not sure how long my luck will hold. I need to be able to effectively defend myself and my family.

  171. 171
    toujoursdan says:

    @elmo:

    Works for me! :)

  172. 172
    r€nato says:

    @toujoursdan:

    I also wish that if Americans wanted to assert their rights, they’d start with the 6th or 7th amendment instead of the 2nd.

    I’d be happy to, if you could explain to me how the rights of the accused in a criminal trial could function as a penis extension.

  173. 173
    r€nato says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    like I said upthread… I’m pretty sure I’ve got a right to fart in public, but I don’t think I am of a mind to test that right.

  174. 174
    Shamash says:

    @Honus:
    A reasonable point, but one which brings up the question of jurisdiction and scope of rights (Constitutional or otherwise). If, as in your case, both localities are in Virginia, does local law trump state law? If so, then Fairfax can restrict open carry and Crozet can have no problem with a gun-toting farmer. If, on the other hand, state law trumps local law, then the residents of Fairfax need to become as comfortable with the public presence of guns as the folks in Crozet.

    There’s a difference between a behavior being legal in all jurisdictions and being socially acceptable in all jurisdictions. Are they being jerks? I can’t entirely disagree with that sentiment, but I respect their right to be jerks, just as much as I respect the rights of teabaggers to wave offensive and misspelled placards.

    The price of a free and open society is that some crap we wish was illegal, isn’t. And everyone has a different notion of what that crap is. Some people have a problem with open carry. Others have a problem with same-sex marriage. I hope that in the end, both groups end up disappointed.

    Anyways, just because you are uncomfortable with someone openly carrying does not make it a bad thing. If people didn’t make a fuss over it, others would not feel compelled to open carry just to “make a point”. Ignore them, and even if they do not go away entirely, odds are their numbers will decrease.

    Besides, “demonstrating a behavior means you are unqualified to exercise it” does not really work as a general principle, otherwise everyone who ever engaged in civil disobedience would, by your argument, not deserve the rights they were striving for.

    For instance, demanding to sit in the front of the bus “to make a point” or “exercise a right”, would, by your logic, show you are not mature enough to sit in the front of the bus.

    And no, I do not consider the gun argument to be on the same scale of importance, I’m merely showing where your thought processes naturally end up. And they do not seem very progressive. Change the subject from guns to something else and the reasoning would fit right in on any number of right-wing sites.

  175. 175
    Comrade Dread says:

    Me too! Man, I hate it when people celebrate their legal rights.

    Please.

    There is a difference between celebrating your right to free speech and grabbing a bullhorn and screaming “F***” over and over at the beach or during a church service

    Yeah, you have a right to do so (assuming you’re complying with local permit and noise ordinances), but you’re still a jerk.

    Having a healthy degree of empathy for one another keeps us all civil and makes society better overall. I wish more people had it.

  176. 176
    celticdragonchick says:

    @toujoursdan:

    But arming the population would just incentivize criminals to find another way to gain power over other people in order to get what they want. Tweaked out Jim and Bob robbing a liquor store or doing a street mugging are probably resort to lethal force more quickly if they think you’ll do the same. It may lead to more gang style crime, as it did in Mexico. So this doesn’t really address the concern. It just moves the type and level of violence up a notch.

    The experience so far has been illustrated by cases like the muggings and robbery/shootings of foreign tourists in Florida back in the early 90’s. Criminals apprehended by law enforcement actually confessed that they were singling out cars from rental agencies because they knew that tourists would not have a gun. (sorry that the paper on that is behind a pay wall.)

    Criminals interviewed in prison some years ago admitted that they deliberately passed on certain burglaries because they were afraid of armed home owners. Contrast that with the spate of violent home invasions in England were there is no longer a legal ‘castle doctrine’ that permits you to defend yourself even in your domicile.

    Criminals are not always arguably rational, but they tend to go for the easiest targets that promise the best reward for the least risk and effort. Admittedly, YMMV.

  177. 177
    toujoursdan says:

    Really? Your “proof” is from a blog that links to another blog written by a Second Amendment advocate that doesn’t provide any statistics, definitions or sources, and confuses correlation with causation? Geez.

  178. 178
    celticdragonchick says:

    @toujoursdan:

    I have to completely disagree with that.
    Police do more than arrest offenders after that the fact. They patrol. They keep the peace. They arrest criminals for other crimes and get them off the street before home invasions and muggings occur.

    Funny how they never seem to be around when a person like me or elmo is being stalked, beaten or raped.

    They tend to show up after the fact and make jokes about the trannies, lesbians and faggots who got whacked.

  179. 179
    celticdragonchick says:

    @toujoursdan:

    If you want a study on crime correlation, have at it and dig one up. There have been numerous media stories (including CBS News) on the wave of violent home invasions in the UK. That was my point.

  180. 180
    The Moar You Know says:

    Contrast that with the spate of violent home invasions in England were there is no longer a legal ‘castle doctrine’ that permits you to defend yourself even in your domicile.

    @celticdragonchick: We here in California haven’t had this in many years. If some three-hundred pound enraged crack junkie breaks into your home screaming “I’m gonna rape your wife and kids and give ’em AIDS” you are supposed to run, not shoot him in the head as any right-thinking person would do.

    The perp has to say the magic words – “I’m going to kill you”, and in quite a few jurisdictions, you’d better have at least one witness that it happened, or you can find your ass in jail for quite a while.

  181. 181
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Hypnos:

    That would be the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, and in the strongly deterministic interpretation you’re using here, it has been throuroughly disputed.

    True. I read on that in Anthropology. Disputed is not at all the same thing as disproved. I tend to think (and this is merely opinion) that Sapir-Whorf is correct and that language does affect how you think and conceive of certain ideas.

  182. 182
    dana says:

    Besides, “demonstrating a behavior means you are unqualified to exercise it” does not really work as a general principle, otherwise everyone who ever engaged in civil disobedience would, by your argument, not deserve the rights they were striving for.

    It doesn’t have to be a general principle for it to apply here. I generally have no problems with gun-ownership and I agree that there are legitimate needs for protection (though oddly the belief that the robbers are always at the door varies inversely with the safety of the neighborhood), but the behavior of the OpenCarry crowd here seems to be relevantly similar to the actions of a small child taunting a sibling. Mom said not to touch you! So I’m going to get one inch away from you. I’m not touching you! I’m not touching you! I’m allowed to carry my gun while I order a banana frappacino!

    Okay, fine. But it still strikes me as woefully immature, and more likely to result in an accident than Heroism in the Defense of Cinnamon Buns.

  183. 183
    suzanne says:

    @Svensker:

    I still don’t get why the wingers are all hot to trot about everybody being able to carry guns in parks, Starbucks, etc. But having a freaking meltdown if someone brings an oversized toothpaste tube on an airplane.

    Is there an explanation?

    Because brown people want to KILL US AWL!!! while white people are “just protecting themselves”.

    It always comes down to race/gender/class/orientation/religion/all of the above. Always.

  184. 184
    celticdragonchick says:

    @numbskull:

    You’ve lost me here. I have no clue what that statement means in relationship to your previous statements on this topic. Please clarify.

    For instance, take the case of the women who had to sue because of sexual harassment in the iron mines of the upper midwest. Legally, they had the same rights and protections, but culturally, they were still treated as inferior and unwanted.

    Now see what happens in Japan, which is highly sexist and culturally demands that women walk several paces behind her husband, etc…

    Trying to sue for sexual harassment is a Quixotic at best, since civil trials can drag out literally for decades (ask the “Comfort Women” who are suing for being kept as sex slaves in WW II).

    Cultural rules on how you are treated do not have to reflect your legal status.

  185. 185
    toujoursdan says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    And how often has this happened to you? A dozen times? And how much do you think an unloaded or even a loaded gun is going to change this?

    @celticdragonchick:

    I did searches under ‘home invasion united kingdom increase’ and ‘home invasion united kingdom spike’ and didn’t find anything. I can’t find anything that shows that it went up because of changes to gun laws. So there is nothing that shows correlation. I do find a couple high profile news stories that caused a buzz in the press. But that doesn’t show a trend or a correlation.

    Violent crime has increased in the UK but their papers give a different reason:

    Experts say there are a number of reasons why violence is soaring in the UK. These include Labour’s decision to relax the licensing laws to allow round-the-clock opening, which has led to a rise in the number of serious assaults taking place in the early hours of the morning. But Police Minister David Hanson said: ‘These figures are misleading. Levels of police recorded crime statistics from different countries are simply not comparable since they are affected by many factors, for example the recording of violent crime in other countries may not include behaviour that we would categorise as violent crime. ‘Violent crime in England and Wales has fallen by almost a half a peak in 1995 but we are not complacent and know there is still work to do.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new.....z0hEXClQGw

    I can also look at Canadian statistics that show that violent crime, including home invasion is lowest in the provinces that have the most restrictive provincial gun laws and lowest rates of fun ownership – Ontario and Québec.

  186. 186
    toujoursdan says:

    errr “fun” = “gun”

  187. 187
    Corner Stone says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    Yeah, you have a right to do so (assuming you’re complying with local permit and noise ordinances), but you’re still a jerk.

    Having a healthy degree of empathy for one another keeps us all civil and makes society better overall. I wish more people had it.

    Valid point to some extent. But no one here is having that debate. For some reason the hive mind has decided it’s about male genetalia, with no possibility of parole.

  188. 188
    Corner Stone says:

    @toujoursdan:

    errr “fun” = “gun”

    Damn straight!

  189. 189
    celticdragonchick says:

    @toujoursdan:

    And how often has this happened to you? A dozen times? And how much do you think an unloaded or even a loaded gun is going to change this?

    I have literally had to flee for my life twice, and thankfully I was pursued since I have severe back and joint problems and can’t outrun anybody. There have been other stalking incidents as well. If you don’t accept the premise that a person has an ‘inalienable’ right to defend their own life to best of their ability, then we have an irresolvable impasse in our conversation.

    Violent crime has increased in the UK but their papers give a different reason:

    The same papers that call gun owners “maniacs”?

    If we both dig deep enough, we can find whatever suits our needs, and I am not in the mood to play that game, honestly.

  190. 190
    celticdragonchick says:

    @toujoursdan:

    The experience so far has been illustrated by cases like the muggings and robbery/shootings of foreign tourists in Florida back in the early 90’s. Criminals apprehended by law enforcement actually confessed that they were singling out cars from rental agencies because they knew that tourists would not have a gun. (sorry that the paper on that is behind a pay wall.)

    I note that you leave this alone…

    Selective evidential arguments get everybody, eventually.

    What this comes down to is that we both have very different cultural expectations, and that neither of us will convince the other. I will use whatever means I have to defend myself and my family because I see that as both a right and an obligation!.

    You don’t.

  191. 191
    toujoursdan says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    If you don’t accept the premise that a person has an ‘inalienable’ right to defend their own life to best of their ability, then we have an irresolvable impasse in our conversation.

    I accept that keeping guns out of everyone’s hands is the best way to achieve this. This means stopping their sale, destroying any guns that are caught, and instituting a “buy-back” programme, as they did in Australia, to get them out of the hands of legal owners. All this is far more effective in defending our lives than starting an arms race with criminals.

    The same papers that call gun owners “maniacs”?

    Ummmm… Yeah. Because all UK newspapers are exactly the same. The Telegraph is exactly the same as the Guardian, just like Fox News is exactly the same as NPR in the U.S.

    The Daily Mail is a right-of-centre newspaper and advocates a relaxation of gun laws. They AGREE with you, but they still don’t attribute the UK’s rising crime rate to gun laws and how crimes are reported. They attribute it to changes in pub closing times and the way crimes are reported. I trust them more than a U.S. blog that links to another U.S. blog that cherry pick statistics to further an agenda he states on his organizational webpage.

  192. 192
    toujoursdan says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I leave it alone because I can’t read the bloody article. You linked to something I can’t access. And so far your track record hasn’t been stellar. You keep asserting facts with no basis.

    This is getting silly.

  193. 193
    celticdragonchick says:

    *sigh*

    elmo is right. The thread is tired and we are not going to convince one another… and I have a chemistry midterm to study for. :(

    Daily Telegraph (June 29, 2000) points out that “the main reason for a much lower burglary rate in America is householders’ propensity to shoot intruders. They do so without fear of being dragged before courts and jailed for life.”

    No link that I can find yet. The CBS report on growing crime in England is from 2000, but I have yet to get quotes from that. I will point out that you have made an number of unsupported assertions on this thread without posting links or other proof, yet you accuse me of what you are doing yourself. I think the word for that is projection.

    Anyways, I have classes and a nassty, tricksy test threatening me, so I will check back later.

  194. 194
    soonergrunt says:

    @r€nato: I test that one all the time.
    Did I say that out loud?

  195. 195

    […] Anne at Balloon Juice posted on what initially seems like the stupidest “protest” of all time—men parading around Starbucks showing off their guns to protest…..nothing, really.  Starbucks lets them do it, it turns out, though now the gun wavers have provoked gun control advocates to respond in anger and fear, which is the wrong thing to do, which I’ll return to in a moment.  But first I want to talk about how Anne isn’t being a very sympathetic person towards the gun-wavers.  Starbucks? This is your bold, patriotic idea of a dangerous venue in which to flaunt your precious Second Amendment pacifiers? Because laptop-wielding hipsters are soooo freaking terrifying? Because the baristers are armed with… scalding hot milk foam? […]

  196. 196
    soonergrunt says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    The perp has to say the magic words – “I’m going to kill you”, and in quite a few jurisdictions, you’d better have at least one witness that it happened, or you can find your ass in jail for quite a while.

    As far as you know, that was exactly what the guy said…

  197. 197
    soonergrunt says:

    @celticdragonchick:
    I think you guys made this up, because we all know that Whorf would only have approved of bat’leth use for home defense.
    Get your bat’leth here!
    I don’t know about this Sapir fellow though. Perhaps he would suggest that you build your own phaser instead.

  198. 198
    toujoursdan says:

    The Telegraph (aka the “Torygraph”) is very right wing and advocates for a relaxation of the UK’s gun laws. Their editorial policy has been pro-gun and anti-ban on fox hunting for a long time. So I am right. Not all UK newspapers are exactly the same, as you implied before.

    Secondly, none of this proves the correlation you made (i.e. that higher rates of gun ownership deter burglaries and home invasions). For that to be true, the burglary/home invasion rates of countries with restrictive gun laws (Scandinavia, Japan, Canada, France, Germany, etc.) would all have to be higher than the U.S. where significant numbers of people have guns to “protect themselves”. If not, logically, some other socio-cultural-economic factors must be at play.

    Third, I am more than happy to provide any backup to any of my assertions if you’ll point out which one(s) you are referring to. I promise not to link to blogs which link to other blogs whose authors have a stated political agenda they are trying to support, but go back to original sources.

    Last, I am gay too and fully understand how gays, lesbians and transgendered people are targeted for hate crimes and that police are often reluctant to help and homophobic. I still don’t believe arming ourselves is the answer to violent crime. It creates an arms race and escalates overall violence. Instead, we need to continue to change police culture so that it more effectively serves the community under its protection. We also need to adequately fund our police departments to attract a high calibre of applicants and make them more effective.

    Good luck on your exam. I’m on to other threads.

  199. 199

    […] in Daily life at 1:06 pm by LeisureGuy Funny post at Balloon Juice by Annie Laurie: There is something seriously wrong with a society where the headline “Starbucks Asks Not to Be […]

  200. 200
    Leisureguy says:

    Minor point: “baristas” (it’s an Italian word), no “baristers” (which seems to be a misspelling of “barristers”, the lawyers in the UK who plead cases in court).

  201. 201
    "Fair and Balanced" Dave says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I have literally had to flee for my life twice, and thankfully I was pursued since I have severe back and joint problems and can’t outrun anybody. There have been other stalking incidents as well. If you don’t accept the premise that a person has an ‘inalienable’ right to defend their own life to best of their ability, then we have an irresolvable impasse in our conversation.

    Probably the greatest irony about this whole Starbucks protest stunt is that the majority of the people participating are conservative white males–a group that’s probably the least likely to need a gun for personal protection.

  202. 202
    maryQ says:

    Just this morning I was in Starbucks, drinking my soy latte and reading my left wing blogs, and in walked a patriot carrying a gun. I was so relieved because when I looked around all I could see was other latte-sipping, lefty blog-reading, seal-hugging, tofu-eating, hemp-wearing wimps who could never protect me in the event that a real bad guy showed up. With mr. patriot there, I didn’t have to worry. I knew he would get the real bad guy first.

  203. 203
    Ruckus says:

    @toujoursdan:

    I just can’t envisage a scenario where a highly armed population is safer than a gun restricted population. It seems to just escalate use of violence and its effectiveness in a society.

    This sounds like Iraq or Afghanistan. A nation invades and a lot of the people who are invaded fight back. They didn’t attack first, just defended. So more troops are sent in (a surge if you will). And more and more people die for lack of any sense at all.

    Again I ask – when is this country going to grow up and realize that we don’t live in the wild, wild west (which mostly existed in stories and later film, not real life)? How many of us have seen or been involved in violent crimes?
    I went to high school with someone who is still in jail for multiple murders and 2 kids I went to school with had one of their parents murder the other and commit suicide. So I have known of violent crime and I still don’t think it is very common for strangers to see or be involved in violent acts. Which is where the public gun toting fools expect to be involved in a crime.

  204. 204
    slightly_peeved says:

    Criminals interviewed in prison some years ago admitted that they deliberately passed on certain burglaries because they were afraid of armed home owners. Contrast that with the spate of violent home invasions in England were there is no longer a legal ‘castle doctrine’ that permits you to defend yourself even in your domicile.

    UK Police rarely prosecute cases of home self-defence; the Daily Telegraph lies about this regularly, and has done since 2005:

    link

    You might be surprised. I will agree that the laws in Europe in often progressive, but that is not the same thing as social mores. That is partially the point of what we are discussing here.

    And as I pointed out, women are elected to higher office in these countries more often (and have been for a longer time) than in the US. Whether someone applies a gender to a word doesn’t actually tell you how they treat that gender (see the 16 Swahili genders). Whether they are willing to vote for them does.

    I mean, word gender and anecdotes about sexual harrassment cases aren’t much of an argument against Europe. I’ll make a similar argument against the US – Bill Clinton and the Bikini Football League. QED.

  205. 205
    Shamash says:

    This somehow seems appropriate as the thread winds to a close:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

  206. 206
    liberal says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I need to be able to effectively defend myself and my family.

    Get a dog of the appropriate breed.

  207. 207
    Honus says:

    @Shamash:
    No, my point is that as a gun owner and experienced marksman, I think anybody that openly carries a gun into a coffee shop in Fairfax to make a political point is a tin can asshole who shouldn’t be carrying a gun anywhere, regardless of whether it’s legal for him to do so or not. I’m not (although I am a lawyer) into technical legal argumets about this. It’s much more visceral for me. Those “open-carry” assholes are dangerous punks.

  208. 208
    Honus says:

    @Shamash:
    And as far as my attitude fitting in on other issues, name one that (say blue hair, or homosexuality, or even “socialism”) that matches the personal destructive power of someone near me with a .40 Glock.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] in Daily life at 1:06 pm by LeisureGuy Funny post at Balloon Juice by Annie Laurie: There is something seriously wrong with a society where the headline “Starbucks Asks Not to Be […]

  2. […] Anne at Balloon Juice posted on what initially seems like the stupidest “protest” of all time—men parading around Starbucks showing off their guns to protest…..nothing, really.  Starbucks lets them do it, it turns out, though now the gun wavers have provoked gun control advocates to respond in anger and fear, which is the wrong thing to do, which I’ll return to in a moment.  But first I want to talk about how Anne isn’t being a very sympathetic person towards the gun-wavers.  Starbucks? This is your bold, patriotic idea of a dangerous venue in which to flaunt your precious Second Amendment pacifiers? Because laptop-wielding hipsters are soooo freaking terrifying? Because the baristers are armed with… scalding hot milk foam? […]

  3. […] gays with guns, quote of the day, quoteable Brittany-Ann 11:31 am From celticdragonchick at this post on ballon-juice.com: …I intend to get a CCW myself, since I have run into one too many GLBT […]

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