Dorgan retirement

A friend who used to work for another Dakota Senator writes:

Fuck! I bet Pomeroy doesn’t even run.

In ND, a popular, well-liked Republican with a good track record will beat pretty much any Democrat. Dorgan won an open seat to get in. Conrad squeaked by an asshole (Mark Andrews) in a semi-upset. Never seen even a good D beat a decent R in an open election in my lifetime in either Dakota.

But, goddamit, once they get in they fucking stay in for life. That’s just part of the deal, D or R. Karl Mundt, Nixon’s right-hand man on the HUAC, was in a fucking coma for half of his last term after he got into the Senate. Quentin Burdick died in office, like a real man, after forty-fucking-two years in the Senate. Tim Johnson’s brain fucking exploded and he can barely talk, but he ran for re-election and won.

Dorgan has always been a prissy little bitch. He wasn’t man enough to run against Andrews, so Conrad went for it and won. Fucking Byron had to sit around and wait for Burdick to die before he could sack up and run.

He should have been making a smelly puddle in his Depends before he even thought of retirement. What a sorry excuse for a politician.

The Democrats should snatch that ridiculous fucking toupee off of his square farmboy knothead, burn it in the middle of the mall, bury the ashes and have the rest of the caucus piss on the spot.

245 replies
  1. 1
    Zam says:

    It is pretty ridiculous how long Senators from those low population states hold the seats. I guess the low pop puts so much more emphasis on the various aspects of incumbency, particularly their ability to raise money.

  2. 2
    pinson says:

    Best blog post I’ve read in months. You should get your buddy a regular gig here.

  3. 3
    CalD says:

    …but he’s not bitter.

  4. 4
    gizmo says:

    Whatever Dorgan’s shortcomings, he was one the most progressive Senators on the Democratic side. His replacement is bound to be worse. I despair. Our government is dysfunctional and beyond repair.

  5. 5
    Sanka says:

    Dorgan has always been a prissy little bitch. He wasn’t man enough to run against Andrews, so Conrad went for it and won. Fucking Byron had to sit around and wait for Burdick to die before he could sack up and run.

    What a sorry excuse for a politician.


  6. 6

    On to New Hampshire, then, Paul Hodes needs some help to get over the hump.

  7. 7
    eemom says:

    hey, guess whose fault it is that Dorgan’s retiring?

    Go on, guess!

    Raaaaaahhhhmmm’s……..or, as the coolest of the cool say over at the “Lake”………”Obamarahma.”


    Y’see, “Obamarahma” FORCED him out.

    No, wait………he is SUCH a principled knight of righteousness, that he could not abide another moment in the same city as the reeking stench of the corporatistselloutworsethanBush “Obamarahma” White House.

    Brain-dead kool-aid drooling minds may differ.

  8. 8
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @DougJ, you need to pick your friends better. I’m tired of all this mealy-mouthed on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand shit from people who are afraid to express an opinion, assuming they even had an opinion in the first place. Tell your Dakota friend to come back when he’s ready to share what he *really* thinks.

  9. 9
    gwangung says:

    @gizmo: So, instead of supporting Dorgan or shoring up other progressives, what is the left wing of the party going to do?

  10. 10
    CK Dexter Haven says:

    Must be Obama’s fault somehow….and Rahm’s too.

  11. 11
    E-Schwill says:

    Love it. This guys writes the way I often think about political issues. Either he or I should start blogging.

  12. 12
    KG says:

    @Zam: it ain’t just the low population states. Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein have been in the Senate since 1992, and I doubt either one of them are going anywhere anytime soon. Moynihan served 4 terms (24 years) and probably could have won reelection in 2000. Kennedy was in the Senate for a very long time, and Kerry has been there since the mid-1980s. Lautenberg has been there since 1982, with a break between 2001 and 2003.

    One of the great strengths of incumbency is that people are more likely to go with the devil they know rather than the devil they don’t.

  13. 13
    Nick says:

    @gwangung: do what they do best, sit out and let the country fall to the Republicans so they can bitch even more.

  14. 14
    mai naem says:

    Well, his drug reimportation bill went down. This guy is one of very few senators who not only voted against the repeal of Glass/Steagall but warned of the consequences of it’s repeal. He sees the proposed financial regulations being torn down by the lobbyists. Call him prissy but at the end of the day Dorgan was a progressive from a conservative state. He’s no Ben Nelson or Mary Landrieu.

  15. 15
    Corner Stone says:


    Tell your Dakota friend to come back when he’s ready to share what he really thinks.

    I agree. Indifference in the defense of vagueness is certainly a vice.

  16. 16
    evie says:

    Don’t agree. A diarist at dkos makes a good point about how he was screwed over royally by Obama (and yes, Rahm) on the drug-importation bill — legislation he’s worked on for years, and legislation he really thought he’d get through with a Democratic president.

    Because really, if you’re from a state neighboring Canada and you can’t get through drug re-importation under the Democratic president (in your party), what’s the point?

    Dorgan didn’t pull a Nelson and demand that his bill get passed for his vote. So the administration screwed him over.

    We still have his vote on health care, but he’s saying: That’s it.

    [And I’m a loyal Obama supporter. But I’m pissed and I don’t blame Dorgan one bit.]

  17. 17
    KG says:

    ok, just out of curiosity, let’s say the Republicans pick up North Dakota in the Senate, are there any other seats they can get? I’ve heard Dodd may be in trouble, but how legitimate is that? Conversely, what seats could the GOP lose?

  18. 18
    Corner Stone says:


    One of the great strengths of incumbency is that -people are more likely to go with the devil they know rather than the devil they don’t- the incumbent has already sold his soul to his corporate backers, and with that cash infusion can usually defeat anyone else.

  19. 19
    CK Dexter Haven says:

    So, instead of supporting Dorgan or shoring up other progressives, what is the left wing of the party going to do?

    Judging by DKos this evening, the left wing of the party is probably going to bay at the moon.

  20. 20
    General Winfield Stuck says:


    Our government is dysfunctional and beyond repair.

    No it’s not. It’s the people representing polarized and entrenched ideological warfare in government that seems beyond repair. Long as we have reasonably fair elections, it’s not the government that needs fixing, it’s the people we elect that need fixing, or replacing. We have a good system that was built to last, and the fact that it has slowed to a snails pace of doing stuff is really a fail safe system built in by the founders. During times of high populist demands from an inherently divided country. Long as elections happen, we are not, and our government is not beyond repair. Though it sure looks like it in the current atmosphere.

    Now if southern states start separating themselves from federal control, we should worry, but not till then.

  21. 21
    Corner Stone says:

    I just don’t want any Senator from any state in office for 4 or more terms. Eighteen years has to be enough, right?
    You’ve made the friends and connections you wanted to make, pushed for the legislation that was important to you and your peeps, sponsored a couple good things, seen the Presidency change from R to D to R ( or whatever).
    Isn’t that enough?

  22. 22
    evie says:


    Oh, we’re losing seats. There is no question. Even freaking PA is not safe. Lincoln. Dodd is virtual toast. The real question is whether we will lose more than five. That I don’t think will happen.

  23. 23
    CK Dexter Haven says:


    Dodd, Reid, Lincoln are all in trouble. OTOH, dems may be able to pick up at least one (or more) out of the following open R seats: OH, KY, MO, NH. If teabaggers make life difficult for Crist, may be FL too. And don’t forget Burr (NC) holds a seat that never elected incumbent since early 70s. So, not that bad.

  24. 24
    Notorious P.A.T. says:


    Heehee )

  25. 25
    Corner Stone says:

    @CK Dexter Haven:

    Judging by DKos this evening, the left wing of the party is probably going to bay at the moon.

    Yes, this makes sense.
    WTF are you talking about?

  26. 26
    cleek says:

    if only Obama had twisted his arm more!


  27. 27
    evie says:


    Oh yeah, and I’m in Illinois. They have one candidate and we have ten, each one pummeling the other. It would have to take a perfect storm to lose IL, but this whole thing makes me very nervous.

  28. 28
    John Cole says:

    It may very well be that one of the things that made him retire is being pissed over drug reimportation. If I hear something from his staff or him saying as much, it would not surprise me and I would believe it.

    But what pisses me off is the eagerness to go all WATB and blame Rahm and Obama with NO EVIDENCE. Some days I think progressives and Red State deserve each other. Yeah- y’all are fact based.

  29. 29
    cleek says:

    Rahm has let us down again. this makes me sad.

    i’m turning in my ideology and becoming a Republican.

    that’ll show ’em.

  30. 30
    The Other Steve says:

    Don’t agree. A diarist at dkos makes a good point about how he was screwed over royally by Obama (and yes, Rahm) on the drug-importation bill—legislation he’s worked on for years, and legislation he really thought he’d get through with a Democratic president.

    Basically the purpose of drug-reimportation as a policy is to force the drug companies to go back to these other countries like Canada and renegotiate. The long term goal then would be cheaper drug prices across the board, as the US would no longer be the only country who is padding the profit margins of the drug companies.

    As such is the case the obvious result of such a measure would be for nations such as Canada to ban the export of these drugs, as they don’t want to make the hard decision of renegotiating and wish to protect their own gains.

    I agree that we need to engage in that battle with these other nations and level the playing field, but this may not be the only way to achieve that goal.

  31. 31
    KG says:

    @evie: I don’t know. I don’t think this will be a good year for Republicans. I really don’t.

    Looking at some of the seats, I think the Democrats can hold pretty close to the line. Kentucky, Ohio, Missouri, and New Hampshire are open Republican seats, picking up two or three of those doesn’t seem unreasonable. I’ll also go out on a limb and say that the Dems could pick up Arizona if McCain loses the primary. Florida may even end up being in play.

    If (and that’s really a big if, in my mind) the Dems lose seats, I don’t think it will be a net loss of more than 2.

  32. 32
    Notorious P.A.T. says:


    Oh come on now, haven’t you heard? Obama hasn’t made any mistakes at all! ! ! And everything that has gone wrong was not his fault! ! ! ! !

  33. 33
    Nick says:

    @evie: You mean to tell me after 30 years, Dorgan has decided to screw the country over one loss on a vote?

    then he’s a pussy.

  34. 34
    CK Dexter Haven says:

    I don’t think Dorgan is retiring because his drug reimportation bill was not included in HCR bill. A senator does not retire based on a single vote. Wasn’t he trailing badly against the ND’s governor? His candidacy is not confirmed but may be Dorgan has info that he is running. Could be the reason why he dropped out.

  35. 35

    I’ll sort of miss Dorgan. While he wasn’t always what you’d call a liberal’s liberal, he was nonetheless a champion and even a crusader for the middle class and criticized Glass Steagall’s repeal. That is, he was a crusader for us until the health care reform debate.

    Anyway, Assclowns of the Week #80 is up and still steaming like a fresh pile of elephant dung. Get it while it’s hot.

  36. 36
    Sanka says:

    Or it could be that Dorgan is a self-serving douche typical career politician who saw that his poll numbers were horrendous, knew that the people of North Dakota (ie his f-ng constituents, the people he represents) are saying to take Obamacare and stuff it, if you want to really represent us.

    Instead, he’s made a decision to solicit offers for a lucrative lobbying position “spend time with his family”, vote for a bill that the majority of his constituents don’t want. And ride off into the sunset.

    Yeah, what a douche classy guy.

  37. 37
    KG says:

    @evie: conventional wisdom says that when running for an open seat, you should bet on the one that came out of a contested primary. The idea is that they’ve been challenged and have already had to clarify and defend their positions, plus everyone knows who they’d be running against in the general.

  38. 38
    Stroszek says:

    Over at GOS, Dorgan is now being portrayed as a great progressive hero stepping down in protest of Obama’s unrepentant conservatism. Never mind that this guy consistently ranks as less liberal than Lincoln and Bayh, he’s Paul f’n Wellstone for tonight.

  39. 39
    General Winfield Stuck says:

    I do not agree with your friend DougJ. Dorgan has remained a progressive voice from a red state for a long time. And that ain’t easy, nor for the weak kneed. Because he has had to pick his battles to get into and stay in office in a cherry red state is not a sign of cowardice, it is survival instinct and smarts, and all of us in this country owe him a big thank you for the unlikely years of liberalism his senate career has given us, where otherwise it would have come with deeply wingnut votes on senate bills, instead of the libtard ones he made.

    What a bunch of ungrateful bastards the libs now smearing this good and brave man. The dude held his own hearings on Bush fraud in military contracting during the darkest of days of the Bush criminal enterprise, WHEN NO ONE ELSE WOULD.

    Jeebus, some days I hate democrats and being one from birth, I reckon.

  40. 40
    ds says:

    Dorgan didn’t call it quits because his drug reimportation amendment died. Come now.

    Drug reimportation is a ridiculous idea, even though it achieves a laudable end. Instead of having the government do the obvious thing, and bargain for lower drug prices like every other fucking country in the world, we’ll try to piggyback on Canada to do the bargaining for us. If you’re going to cross Big Pharma, and actually have the votes to do it, shouldn’t you do it in the rational way?

    This really sucks though. Dorgan wasn’t one of the most progressive senators, although he took some laudable stands, but he is far more liberal than any senator who can possibly win an open race in North Dakota for the indefinite future.

  41. 41
    Ailuridae says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Yeah, Ted Kennedy was really fucking things up for progressives by the end of it there. Also Kerry, John. Fuck, I want Kerry to leave office right now. And Joe Biden should have been long retired before he ran for president in 2008/ And who the fuck does Dick Durbin think he is anyway. He should not re-run in 2012.

  42. 42
    4jkb4ia says:

    Now I am glad I am here. Neither Jane nor EW blamed Rahm or Obama in so many words. If anything, seen in those terms Dorgan’s retirement is a threat. He said in his statement that he will continue to work for the things that are important to him, and he may have more leverage for those things if the White House thinks that 60 is in jeopardy after November. Of course if the Republican caucus thinks that 60 is in jeopardy they know how long they have to obstruct everything on the calendar.

  43. 43
    evie says:

    I’d also like to point out that if those narrowly and rabidly focused on the Public Option had spent even a portion of that energy helping to get drug re-importation through, we might have had a victory. There was no grassroots effort on it. And there was virtually no political cost to the administration for killing that legislation. At least, not until today.

  44. 44
    Brian J says:

    @CK Dexter Haven:

    I don’t think this is necessarily true. The map is all over the place. It’s possible we could pick up seats in, say, Kentucky and North Carolina even if we somehow lose them in other, possibly after states. It really depends on the economy, first, and on the quality of the candidates, second. But assuming things aren’t so bad that the Democrats have no hope, the map could actually favor them.


    Dodd’s in trouble, but let’s be honest: if push comes to shove, and it looks like there’s a way to win without Dodd, he’ll be replaced. There’s no way that they’d lose a Senate seat in Connecticut if they are confident they can win with someone else–and really, they probably can.

    Reid isn’t in a position of strength, but who is going to replace him? It’s possible that even if he doesn’t appear any better than he does now in the eyes of the voters, the lack of credible candidates on the Republican side will allow him to slide through.

    As for Lincoln, I’m not sure what to think. She’s probably got the most legitimate reason behind any sort of move to the right, considering how sharply Arkansas appears to have moved in that direction. But will it make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. This is probably the only race where I have no idea what to predict.

  45. 45
    Ailuridae says:


    They have some pick-up opportunities too. If you asked me to put an over/under on seats lost right now I would say 4.5 with the obvious mention that ND is all but lost.

  46. 46
    4jkb4ia says:

    But if Dorgan is POd about drug importation, drug importation is part of the deal which the WH cut, so they are to blame in part. The logic seems impeccable.

  47. 47
    Nick says:

    @Stroszek: you expect them to admit one of theirs can’t hold on to a seat next year?

  48. 48
    CK Dexter Haven says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Yes, this makes sense.
    WTF are you talking about?

    Over @ Dkos tonight talking points seem to be:
    1. Obama’s at fault…obviously Rahm too.
    2. Dorgan is a great progressive senator (never mind his overall conservative record).
    3. Public option.
    4. Reconcilliation.
    5. Left is deflated…..and then go to point 1…repeat.

    If that’s not baying at the moon or lunacy…then may be I need to make an appointment with a shrink ASAP.

  49. 49
    Corner Stone says:

    @Ailuridae: Jesus Christ but fucking lay off the goddamn kool-aid chump.
    What I said isn’t controversial, and I didn’t single anyone out. IMO I don’t think it serves the country as a whole to have any one person in that seat for a lifetime.

  50. 50
    TR says:

    he may have more leverage for those things if the White House thinks that 60 is in jeopardy after November. Of course if the Republican caucus thinks that 60 is in jeopardy they know how long they have to obstruct everything on the calendar.

    60 was already doomed, this just makes it official and hopefully will light a fire under Reid & company to make hay while the sun still shines

  51. 51
    Nick says:

    @4jkb4ia: It’s very disingenious and disgusting to try to argue that Dorgan is that petty.

    Just because this is what these self-absorbed bloggers would do does not mean Dorgan would either. Dorgan is a good public servant who dedicated his life to service to the people of North Dakota, not some pajama wearing freak who needs to feel good about himself by seeing his/her words on a computer screen.

  52. 52
    General Winfield Stuck says:

    He bowed out of the race for reelection because he was faced with frothing RW tribalism and a popular wingnut, combined with already putting in a solid career. Byron Dorgan is not a vindictive man and isn’t retiring because he didn’t get his way on one issue. He made a calculation he almost certainly would not win. It’s public service and he has done his, and owes not us nor the country not one single goddamn thing.

  53. 53
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    Here’s an update on Pete Hoekstra, who I’m ashamed to say is from my state:


    Haha )

  54. 54
    Stroszek says:

    CK Dexter Haven: Don’t worry. With the immigration and climate debates coming up, Dorgan will have plenty of opportunities to be GOS’s betrayer-of-the-day.

  55. 55
    Ailuridae says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Yeah, I’m the chump in these conversations not you who writes things that are on their face stupid on a consistent basis. Go ahead, make the compelling case that we all would be better served as progressives with no Senator having served four or more terms the last 50 years.

    I’m starting to catch on that you are just dim.

  56. 56
    Corner Stone says:

    @CK Dexter Haven: Hmmm. Yes, you’ve made a compelling case. Carry on.

  57. 57
    evie says:

    @Brian J:

    Well, you’re much more sanguine about CT than I am. I still can’t believe Dodd is in as much trouble as he is, I can’t imagine anyone is ready to have a CTJ meeting with him. I hope you’re right.

    I don’t think Reid will lose, but we could lose PA and AR. On the other hand, perhaps the teabaggers will allow FL to turn our way. At the end of the day, it is early early early. We’ll be speculating a thousand times over before Nov.

  58. 58
    James Hare says:

    Just since I’m getting tired of FireDogLake’s shit: is registered under godaddy. Here’s the report for the godaddy PAC’s giving for the 2008 election cycle:
    A summary — they gave $25,500 to Democrats in 2008 and $54,025 to Republicans. They gave $6,600 to the McCain/Palin ticket and NOTHING to Obama. I believe there was a short-sighted boycott against GoDaddy a few years ago for the same reason. Since firedoglake seems to want to be a purity troll, I think they ought to taste some of their own medicine. Every dollar they give to godaddy for domain registration and DNS services is more money to defeat progressive causes.

    I am really tired of so-called “progressives” who can’t seem to realize that change takes time. George Bush hadn’t totally fucked our country in less than 12 months, so it seems really screwy to attack Obama for not managing to fix the messes in such a short timeframe. Obama also has not enjoyed the benefit of 96% approval ratings after a terrorist attack and the neutered Congress Bush had. I’m sitting here in Aspen, CO on my vacation and I’ve heard from the slightly-more-sophisticated right-wingers the whole time. Obama is up against a whole bunch more than Ben Nelson, and “progressives” who ignore that are simply out of touch.

    I thought being a liberal/progressive was about paying attention to reality. With sites like firedoglake it seems more about posturing than actually getting anything accomplished. What I find really interesting is that in the midst of all their concern trolling they still manage to handle their domain registration through a known Republican donor.

  59. 59
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    Over at GOS, Dorgan is now being portrayed as a great progressive hero

    That’s crazy talk. Everyone knows the progressive hero is Rahm.

  60. 60
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    I am really tired of so-called “progressives” who can’t seem to realize that change takes time.

    Change takes time, but it also takes. . . change. Considering all the things Obama absolutely refuses to change (indefinite detention, military commissions, war in Afghanistan, etc) I’m not exactly sure what the timetable is.

    George Bush hadn’t totally fucked our country in less than 12 months

    Well, he did implement the first round of his budget-killing tax cuts and allow 9/11 to happen. Not a bad first 9 months’ work.

  61. 61
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Your Democrat-friend sounds like he has anger-management issues DougJ. I would give this man a wide berth.

  62. 62
    Nazgul35 says:

    If they charged money to watch the toupee snatch and burn, they might raise some serious coin for the DSCC!

  63. 63
    Corner Stone says:

    @John Cole:

    But what pisses me off is the eagerness to go all WATB and blame Rahm and Obama with NO EVIDENCE.

    Please have your testosterone scrip renewed asap.

  64. 64
    Corner Stone says:

    @Ailuridae: You’re not even arguing against anything here.
    You’re just a dumbass frothing at the mouth.

    And yes, you are the chump here. Chump.

  65. 65
    Stroszek says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.: Well, I guess someone has to be a progressive hero since nothing could ever be more ambiguous and complicated than a Manichean battle between elemental awesome and elemental ballsucking. I mean, seriously, what is this? The real world?

  66. 66
    4jkb4ia says:

    Didn’t write clearly. Was trying to tell John that inasmuch as you have evidence for banning drug importation being part of the deal with PhRMA, you have evidence for the WH being behind part of Dorgan’s decision to retire if Dorgan admits that it was part of it. Not all of it.

    I don’t assume that Dorgan quit over this alone. Maybe there were real personal reasons and he got tired of it. But having no great cause to fight for dictated by his ideology that he can accomplish beyond 2010 has to be part of his thinking.

  67. 67
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    Please have your testosterone scrip renewed asap.

    What are you talkin–oh, it’s Corner Stone.

  68. 68
    Midnight Marauder says:

    @James Hare:

    I am really tired of so-called “progressives” who can’t seem to realize that change takes time. George Bush hadn’t totally fucked our country in less than 12 months, so it seems really screwy to attack Obama for not managing to fix the messes in such a short timeframe. Obama also has not enjoyed the benefit of 96% approval ratings after a terrorist attack and the neutered Congress Bush had. I’m sitting here in Aspen, CO on my vacation and I’ve heard from the slightly-more-sophisticated right-wingers the whole time. Obama is up against a whole bunch more than Ben Nelson, and “progressives” who ignore that are simply out of touch.
    I thought being a liberal/progressive was about paying attention to reality. With sites like firedoglake it seems more about posturing than actually getting anything accomplished. What I find really interesting is that in the midst of all their concern trolling they still manage to handle their domain registration through a known Republican donor.

    I like you Spaniard, and I shall cheer for you.


  69. 69
    James Hare says:

    Also can we please stop calling it “Obamacare” — that’s a right-wing frame that has little to no relation to reality. If anything call it “DemocraticCongressCare” or something along those lines. It reminds me too much of “HillaryCare” – the goal is to stick a hated name to the bill so folks will fail to see the benefits it might provide to them.

    What I find interesting about firedoglake is that they seem to think against all history that stopping this bill will result in a more liberal outcome. From the past experience since Nixon every failed healthcare reform bill has been followed by a less progressive alternative.

  70. 70

    WTF is this thread for? Your drunken friend writes a pissy letter about a guy who is about to have his 67th birthday and has been in the Senate for 17 years.

    What fucking business is it of your friend why the man wants to quit the frustrating job and do something else? Who exactly is your friend, anyway? Can we see his CV and his bio so that we can shit all over him here in equal measure?

    Sorry, this is insulting bullshit.

    Fuck your friend.

  71. 71
    Corner Stone says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.: Now that hurts.

    ETA – I thought we had something special? I don’t even use “teh” anymore, or other accepted internet spelling conventions in your honor!
    Wounded. Wounded I am.

  72. 72
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    What I find interesting about firedoglake is that they seem to think against all history that stopping this bill will result in a more liberal outcome.

    Hear hear. When are we supposed to get that better outcome? A year from now, when we don’t have 60 in the Senate and *maybe* lose control of the House? 2 years from now, when Obama forgets to buckle his seat belt on Marine One and Holy Joe initiates impeachment proceedings?

  73. 73
    John Cole says:

    I’m ready for the Republicans to win Congress. Fuck it. I’m employed, a white straight male, in good health, and insured. I’ll be just fine. I’m tired of dealing with the nonstop withering attacks from the left and the right, I’m tired of the bullshit from folks who think everything should be fixed their way the way then want it in no time.

    Just blow it all up. Let’s give progressives and Republicans what they want- only one term for Rahm and the end of Reid.

  74. 74
    nodakfarmboy says:

    Dorgan has always been a prissy little bitch

    DougJ, with all due respect to your friend…

    I’ve met Byron Dorgan, I’ve worked with Byron Dorgan, and your friend’s representation of his character is WAY off base.

    Criticize him if you will, but he’s fought the good fight on many an occasion. His standing up and criticizing bank deregulation a full TEN YEARS before the banks melted down, alone gives him piles of cred as far as I’m concerned.

    Your friend needs calm down, and get with it.

    Allow the man his retirement, and give him some respect. He might not be the greatest Senator ever, but he’s done a damn good job for North Dakota.

  75. 75
    Tom Q says:

    Just to correct the original post a little: It’s my memory that Dorgan ran for the open seat left not by Mundt by Conrad, when he briefly retired. Conrad had run on an “I’ll get the budget balanced or step down” pledge, and felt the need to honor it when re-election time rolled around. Dorgan stepped in and was easily elected. THEN Mundt died, and Conrad reappeared, more or less saying “Okay, promise kept, now we can move on and elect me again”.

    I agree with alot that’s been said here: Dorgan wasn’t Bernie Sanders, but by Dakota standards he was pretty close, and there’s almost no way this isn’t a blow to Dem hopes for the year. (About which I’m not deeply cynical in general, but this one will hurt)

  76. 76
    Ailuridae says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Clever retort. Fact-free and poorly argued as always.

    Do you know anything about, well, anything? Is there actually a Mad Libs for FDLer template that you use that you also sprinkle with Anonymous Internet Tough Guy insults? Have you ever made a single, salient point on any piece of policy or politics here?

    Its you that frothing, son. Ignorant and frothing. You’re only attempt to argue against me was pitiful and I have now asked you the same question a half dozen times and you are, simply, too much of an intellectual coward to even attempt to answer it.

  77. 77
    eemom says:

    @James Hare:

    “What I find really interesting is that in the midst of all their concern trolling they still manage to handle their domain registration through a known Republican donor.”

    But, sir………the republicans — oops, excuse me, the “libertarians” —
    — are our FRIENDS. Our PARTNERS in defeating Rahmism. Didn’t you get the Christmas card from Aunt Jane and Uncle Grover?

  78. 78
    Nick says:

    @4jkb4ia: Well Dorgan pretty much said drug importation wasn’t part of it.

    “Let me be clear that this decision does not relate to any dissatisfaction that I have about serving in the Senate. Yes, I wish there was less rancor and more bipartisanship in the U.S. Senate these days.”

    oh look, proof…but the Jane Hamsher lemmings will say he was just saying that to be nice

  79. 79
    Jim says:


    Criticize him if you will, but he’s fought the good fight on many an occasion. His standing up and criticizing bank deregulation a full TEN YEARS before almost anyone else, alone gives him piles of cred as far as I’m concerned.

    Wouldn’t that be all the more reason to stay in and fight?

    My governor, Ritter-CO, also announced he’s retiring after one term, because campaigning is hard.

  80. 80
    Stroszek says:

    @Nick: Rahm clearly forced him to say that. I just wish we could see that kind of arm-twisting with Lieberman!

  81. 81
    James Hare says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.:
    I really don’t see President Obama doing too much to change our anti-terrorism crap when he’s got the rabid right wing already calling him a traitor. It’d be really nice to have someone in the White House who felt the way I do about civil rights. Unfortunately I don’t see that happening in today’s political atmosphere.

    I didn’t expect Obama to change the world. I expected him to be better than George Bush. He has done an excellent job on that.

    As to Bush’s first 9 months? The tax cuts were terrible, but they weren’t the problem. Two deficit-funded wars were the problem. On 9/11 — it is improper to blame that on George Bush. If there was something he could have done to stop those attacks, I’m sure he would have done it. Blaming the attacks on Bush is tantamount to saying he was complicit with the deaths of almost 3000 Americans. He was a terribly misguided and ignorant President and history will judge him harshly for his failures, but I cannot believe he would have chosen to let almost 3000 people die for any reason. One of the biggest problems with politics today is that we impugn the motives of folks who seek political office. It is not easy to win a seat in Congress, let alone the Presidency. Whether you agree with them or not, folks run for Congress for the right reasons most of the time. What happens after they get there is more about our system than their motivations.

    We would all do alot better to assume we have genuine disagreements rather than people being “shills” or whatever. When you start an argument by insulting someone, you’ve already lost it.

  82. 82
    Jim says:

    on a lighter and OT note, I’m sure this photo from Rick Perry’s college days will help to dispel those nasty rumors


    (two, three…. kick! turn!… turn, turn, kick, turn!

  83. 83
    Nick says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.: Ok, here’s the thing, while backed against the wall with charges that he’s too weak on terrorism, charges, might I add, being lobbied against him from even GENERATION Y DEMOCRATS WHO VOTED FOR HIM, he stood up and said that he was still pushing to close Gitmo because IT is what is causing terrorists to hate us.

    And he gets no credit from the peanut gallery…perhaps it’s because YOU don’t see that we live in a country teetering on the edge of fascism when it comes to national security…but when you stay home in the next election and the GOP is arresting you for not kissing the portrait of Sarah Palin cradling Jesus, you’ll be hit with a dose of reality.

    But I’m sure that’ll be Rahm;s fault too.

  84. 84
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I apologize. I I didn’t intend criticism, but that clearly wasn’t communicated. Keep throwing those bombs CS )

  85. 85
    Ailuridae says:


    Isn’t that just the CoC uniform?

  86. 86
    Corner Stone says:

    @Ailuridae: ***Yawn***
    “internet tough guy”
    “FDL’er template”

  87. 87
    Brian J says:


    Why do you think we’d lose PA? AR, I can see, but PA? I guess it’s possible, but should Specter not be the nominee, Sestak doesn’t appear to be a particularly weak candidate nor Toomey a particularly strong candidate.

  88. 88
    Corner Stone says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.: It’s too late.
    Between you and the viciously on-point criticism Ailuridae delivered I have lost teh ability to spell librul correctly.

  89. 89
    James Hare says:

    I think I’m off their Christmas card list.

  90. 90
    Ailuridae says:

    @Corner Stone:

    That’s what I thought. I’ll just file you under “loud and ignorant and too scared to engage in debate”.

  91. 91
    4jkb4ia says:

    More than “being nice”. He has every reason to say this if he wants to get anything accomplished with any of these people.

    Thinking that you did everything you are likely to do in the Senate may not “relate to any dissatisfaction that you have”.

  92. 92
    James Hare says:

    And again — if you insult someone to try to prove a point, you’ve already lost the argument.

  93. 93
    Corner Stone says:

    @Ailuridae: Bwah-ha-ha-ha!!

  94. 94
    bago says:

    @John Cole: Gotta appreciate being a white male with health insurance in americe. God knows it’s gotten me through a few scrapes.

  95. 95
    Nick says:


    Thinking that you did everything you are likely to do in the Senate

    This is very different than the FDL line of “Dorgan’s going to stick it to Obama and Rahm”

    This is more like “I did the best I can, now I go retire” which is what Senators normally do.

    Though I’d be willing to bet on this being Dorgan’s “I really don’t want to be ousted by a Republican after 17 years in the Senate”

  96. 96
    eemom says:

    I don’t know anything about Dorgan’s motives, but there HAVE been elderly people — on the Supreme Court for instance — who have hung in there long past retirement age (Justice Stevens) and through life threatening illness (Justice Ginsburg) because that was, you know, the best THEY could do to keep their institution from becoming the instrument of evil.

  97. 97
    Ailuridae says:

    @James Hare:

    He wrote something impossibly stupid. I pointed out that what he wrote was impossibly stupid. I will continue to do this to posters who write things that are impossibly stupid.

    Interesting tautology you developed there to excuse Bush from culpability from the failures of his administration to exercise due diligence in regards to intelligence and national security issues in the run up to 9/11.

  98. 98
    Ailuridae says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Same as it ever was, No guts at all. At least you realize you are beat.

    I’ll just wait another hour for you to make some outrageous claim that doesn’t make any sense and I’ll point it out again.

  99. 99
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    When you start an argument by insulting someone, you’ve already lost it.

    I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to insult you or anyone else in this thread. No one in here deserves that.

    he stood up and said that he was still pushing to close Gitmo because IT is what is causing terrorists to hate us

    Yes, he is closing it, and moving the people in it to a prison in Illinois where they will be held forever without trials, just as they would have been in Gitmo. But maybe the terrorists won’t notice.

    I really don’t see President Obama doing too much to change our anti-terrorism crap when he’s got the rabid right wing already calling him a traitor.

    Should he wait until they ease up on him? If he does, he’s a fool because that’s never going to happen. Too many Democratic politicians think that if the opposition party somehow opposes them, then they need to try and win them over. It’s failed 100000 times in a row, but maybe we’re due?

    When I said Bush “let 9/11 happen” I don’t mean that he knew what was coming and wanted it, but rather that his stupid, narcissistic, lazy self didn’t do anything his advisers told him to do, thus forgoing any chance to prevent the attack. “Ok you’ve covered your ass” etc.

    You’re right, it did take Bush a while to do most of his damage. I guess I’m just disappointed in Obama’s first year. We got a stimulus that was much too small and a watered-down health care bill that he should have pushed to improve. Our country is broke yet we’re going to spend billions to bomb Afghanistan, as if that will stop terrorism. Speaking of which, now we’re going to spend 3 months holding hearings about airport security because a fool with C4 underoos snuck onto a plane while our real problems get worse.

  100. 100
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Come back from the Dark Side! there is still good in you, I feel it!

  101. 101
    kay says:


    I think we’re going to pick one up in Ohio. That could change of course, but that’s what I think today.

  102. 102
    Notorious P.A.T. says:


    Lol, okay what the hell is that?

  103. 103
    Ailuridae says:


    And Missouri. Someone posted upthread but about PA and the last I saw Quinnipiac (sp?) had it polled as a dead heat between Specter and Toomey.

  104. 104
    Nick says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    Yes, he is closing it, and moving the people in it to a prison in Illinois where they will be held forever without trials, just as they would have been in Gitmo.

    Would you rather they be released into Yemen?

    Furthermore, despite being attacked relentlessly, including by nearly everyone here in New York, his DOJ is PUTTING KSM ON TRIAL IN NEW YORK FUCKING CITY!!!

    Does it not register in your head how RADICALLY DIFFERENT his policies are here than what Bush was or what the American people even want?

    I mean seriously, it’s like expecting Dom Perignon in the middle of a grape famine.

  105. 105
    James Hare says:

    I don’t blame Obama for the underpants bomber for the same reason. I like the Obama administration’s handling of this matter a great deal better — the fact that folks are making fun of the underpants bomber is far preferable to the shaking fear Bush tried to engender.

    I do not believe it is the government’s job to keep me safe from all harm. It is not within the capabilities of a modern state to police every single interaction between people. I don’t buy into the meme that Bush “should have done something” when reports said Bin Laden was determined to attack the United States. First of all those reports weren’t new — Bin Laden declared war on the United States in 1996. Secondly, the plotters had diagnosed the problem of airport security and figured out a way around it. The plot seemed obvious in hindsight, but hindsight is usually pretty clear.

    From a “it would feel good” standpoint I’d love to see Obama run roughshod over Congress like Bush. The Senate in particular insults my intelligence to a point where I want to take it personally. My feelings are fairly unimportant in the grand scheme of things. The more analytical part of my mind would like to have a stable government. At least from my perspective that requires some compromise, even if it’s distasteful.

  106. 106
    Ailuridae says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    Pretty sure its Perry’s Corps of Cadets photo from his senior year at A & M (those are the senior boots hes wearing). Not sure what the point of making fun of ROTC uniforms is though no matter how goofy they are.

  107. 107
    4jkb4ia says:

    @John Cole:
    But Dorgan didn’t retire because of any of that.

    During the last week you wrote about how depressing it would be to see financial reform being watered down during the next two months. You don’t have to identify as a progressive or blame Rahm for everything to worry about the Democrats in Congress presenting a slate of half-done achievements to the voters next year.

    I am frustrated by not being able to get involved with the Robin Carnahan campaign yet. You do not walk out on Robin Carnahan to punish the Democrats in Congress. If anything, if she is there it dethrones President Nelson.

  108. 108
    Ailuridae says:

    @James Hare: ‘

    No, the comparable situation to the underpants bomber is to Richard Reid the shoe bomber. And, no, nobody here or elsewhere is or was criticizing Bush for that.

    However, the lack of due diligence and seriousness with which Bush approached matters of national security leading up to 9/11 especially regarding Al-Qaeda is clear and undeniable. You are creating false equivalencies all over the place here and they are unnecessary.

    Its not that Bush didn’t do enough in regards to the memo in question its that, by all indications he didn’t take the memo seriously and did nothing. Its not that he did the wrong thing or didn’t do enough.

  109. 109
    James Hare says:

    I will say one thing — commenting from Colorado lets me stay far more engaged in these later-night discussions than I would be able in Falls Church!

  110. 110
    kay says:


    I didn’t know about Missouri, so thank you.

    Missouri is technically “the midwest” but to me it is “southern” and I just don’t even try to figure out southern races, so I’ll take your word for it.

  111. 111
    Notorious P.A.T. says:


    If we have no reason to believe that someone has committed a crime-i.e., evidence–then yes, that person should be released because that is how civilized countries that believe in laws behave. Now, if we have evidence against someone, put them on trial.

    It’s good that Obama is putting KSM on trial. Bush put the “Shoe Bomber” on trial. Other people he threw into a hole with no plan to let them out, ever. This is what Obama is doing. He hasn’t made a break with Bush’s policies on this. Even Bush’s people say this. I mean, you start by saying that we can’t let people out, just in case, when that is just what Bush said when he was calling the shots.

    Obviously one can’t make champagne without grapes, but that doesn’t apply to this. There is no good reason why Obama can’t end Bush’s policies. It’s not like it would cost money we don’t have. If anything, continuing those policies costs money we don’t have. We don’t have money for an escalated war in Afghanistan, which by the way is another Obama continuation of Bush policies–“fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here” was a stupid idea 5 years ago and it’s a stupid idea now.

  112. 112
    Ailuridae says:


    Missouri is moving blue pretty rapidly. Carnahan is leading within the margin of error in most polls and her opponent is the execrable Roy Blunt who is very likely to do something really, really stupid in the next 10 months.

  113. 113
    4jkb4ia says:

    OTOH, I can get strength from John being tired of the vitriolic attacks. There is righteously angry. Most of EW’s commenters are righteously angry. And as we see from this week’s parsha (Moses striking the Egyptian) that has its place. Then there is maliciously angry which has no place at all.

  114. 114
    Nick says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    Now, if we have evidence against someone, put them on trial.

    It’s obvious to everyone with a brain cell that 9/10ths of the people at Gitmo are guilty, but can’t be tried because their cases have been compromised and when you live in a nation where the vast majority of the population would rather see the Constitution torn apart because they’re afraid, doing the “right thing” doesn’t keep you or your ideas in power.

    There is no good reason why Obama can’t end Bush’s policies.

    Aside from the fact that he ended nearly all of them, the fact that he’ll lose if he does is a pretty good one. We get the government we deserve, we deserve a fascist one when it comes to national security, but thankfully, we got Obama.

  115. 115
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    Not sure what the point of making fun of ROTC uniforms is though no matter how goofy they are.

    I’m laughing at his hair in that picture. Who painted it on?

  116. 116

    Since Dorgan hasn’t stood up and thrown a punch at anybody, I think it’s pretty cheap to not just let the guy retire without rancor. You might want to think about just how hard campaigning is, particularly in a big area low population state and then especially one more conservative than you are. Maybe a couple of you are familiar with it from the professional end – maybe.

    If you haven’t done something like this you have NO idea. I do have a clue what it means for somebody like Dorgan, my CD is bigger than any state E of the Mississippi.

    In mid-terms it isn’t the least unusual for incumbents to poll worse early on than during the actual election, especially if things are a bit grim.

  117. 117
    James Hare says:

    What exactly was Bush supposed to do? I really can’t see what he could have done to stop the attacks. The plotters planned the attacks to circumvent the security that existed at the time. If new security measures were put in place, I’m sure they would have found a way around them. The way I look at 9/11 was that it forever defeated hijacking as a terrorist tool — hijacking relies on the passengers complying with the hijackers. Obviously that is less likely after 9/11.

    As I said earlier, I do not expect the government to protect me from all harm. I’m getting on plane on Thursday. It’s kind of funny because every time I’ve gotten on a plane since 2000, there’s been a terrorist attack on aircraft or an attempt a few weeks before I got on the plane. Even with that backdrop, I’m still more nervous about the takeoff and landing.

  118. 118
    James Hare says:

    @Chuck Butcher:
    It’s always easier to heckle from the cheap seats than get in the game!

  119. 119
    NR says:

    As much fun as it may be to complain about left-wing blogs here, you guys really do need to look deeper than that. The polls are saying that 45% of Democrats are either unlikely to vote or certain not to vote in November, vs. only 20% or so of Republicans. That gap is huge, and if it holds, the Dems are in deep shit.

    The discontent among the Democratic base is widespread, and it’s not happening because some people on left-wing blogs are complaining.

  120. 120
    Max says:

    On a related note, according to the Twitter, Dodd is stepping out and won’t seek reelection.

    This means the dems can run a strong candidate (and the GOP has no shot of picking up this seat) and according to the article linked below, there is another dem candidate that can seriously threaten Joey Lie. This is a great thing.

    Obamarahm strikes again!


  121. 121
    kay says:


    I’m glad. It isn’t the critics. That isn’t what’s incredibly dispiriting. It’s that the critics are starting to seem dug in to me.

    An example. I have been occasionally mentioning here that the local economy is getting better. I know this because people tell me, and I look at numbers. I can’t really MISS the numbers. It’s sucked here for so long that the local paper breaks out the champagne when unemployment goes down a tenth of a per cent. It’s manufacturing. That’s what we do here. Not me, but most people. More of them are working.

    I was waiting for that to show up in data, and it started to show up.

    I go to Kos and there’s 12 diaries arguing against the manufacturing numbers, and against the (better) employment numbers.

    What is the point of that? I understand “reality based” and there are huge structural problems with the economy, and ( I believe) no one really knows that the hell is going to happen, but what is the point of denying actual better numbers in favor of horrible hypotheticals?

    That seems dug in to me. That starts to seem committed. I think getting like that that would be a mistake.

  122. 122
    Punchy says:

    Hawkeyes win, bizznitches. Suck it yellerjax

    Punch plus 5

  123. 123
    Nick says:


    The polls are saying that 45% of Democrats are either unlikely to vote or certain not to vote in November, vs. only 20% or so of Republicans. That gap is huge, and if it holds, the Dems are in deep shit.

    and meanwhile far greater than 55% of Democrats approve of both the President, Congress, AND healthcare, so the discontent is not widespread, what we have is a large swath of Democrats who are happy and just not voting.

    How do you solve that problem? How do you excite a base that is already excited and still does not want to vote?

  124. 124
    Nick says:

    @Max: oh thank fucking God.

  125. 125
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    WaPo just alerted that Chris Dodd is retiring.

  126. 126
    Tsulagi says:

    @John Cole:
    There you go, Obama is a poor waif. He has no influence on Congress, in between transcendy word deliverings, he merely waits with eager wonderment to learn what is in legislation that appears on his desk. Yeah. How those kneepads fitting?

    The WH made the love deal with PhRMA, not Congress. Continuing the drug-reimportation and negotiated drug pricing ban from the Bush years in exchange for some of Pharma’s coffee money. Don’t know if you still have the two-link limit, but one NYT piece from this past summer gives a pretty good chronology…

    Pressed by industry lobbyists, White House officials on Wednesday assured drug makers that the administration stood by a behind-the-scenes deal to block any Congressional effort to extract cost savings from them beyond an agreed-upon $80 billion.

    That’s $80B over 10 years. Candidate Obama said cost savings could be $30B per year on Medicare alone if like the VA it was allowed to negotiate drug pricing. Said it something like this

    Barack Obama and Joe Biden will repeal the ban on direct negotiation with drug companies and use the resulting savings, which could be as high as $30 billion, to further invest in improving health care coverage and quality.

    Regardless of whether Obama and Biden campaigned on that, or what the definition of “will repeal” is, good to see that WH non-interference with Congress’ work on HCR had some real bipartisan support…

    “We were assured: ‘We need somebody to come in first. If you come in first, you will have a rock-solid deal,’ ” Billy Tauzin, the former Republican House member from Louisiana who now leads the pharmaceutical trade group, said Wednesday. “Who is ever going to go into a deal with the White House again if they don’t keep their word?”

    Let’s see, who to keep your word to? The voters you said “will repeal the ban” to, or good ole boy Billy. Think that one was answered. How about a little confirmation…

    A deputy White House chief of staff, Jim Messina, confirmed Mr. Tauzin’s account of the deal in an e-mail message on Wednesday night.

    He must be a PUMA.

    The White House commitment to the deal with the drug industry may also irk some of the administration’s Congressional allies who have an eye on drug companies’ profits as they search for ways to pay for the $1 trillion cost of the health legislation.

    No worries on that, rather than negotiate drug pricing let’s put an excise tax on those bad Americans whose insurance plans are too good.

    In an interview on Wednesday, Representative Raul M. Grijalva, the Arizona Democrat who is co-chairman of the House progressive caucus, called Mr. Tauzin’s comments “disturbing.”
    “We have all been focused on the debate in Congress, but perhaps the deal has already been cut,” Mr. Grijalva said. “That would put us in the untenable position of trying to scuttle it.”

    You don’t see the big picture. Feeling pressure to honor an agreement made by a president of your own party rather doing the best for your constituents is your own making, not from the WH. It’s 11D chess.

    He added: “It is a pivotal issue not just about health care. Are industry groups going to be the ones at the table who get the first big piece of the pie and we just fight over the crust?”

    You still don’t get it. The president nor anyone in his admin had any control over those deals cut in the WH.

    After reaching an agreement with Mr. Baucus, Mr. Tauzin said, he met twice at the White House with Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff; Mr. Messina, his deputy; and Nancy-Ann DeParle, the aide overseeing the health care overhaul, to confirm the administration’s support for the terms.

    Good to see all those I’s dotted and t’s got crossed.

    “They blessed the deal,” Mr. Tauzin said. Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the House was not bound by any industry deals with the Senate or the White House.

    Shit, Nancy didn’t get the memo either that the WH has no influence on legislation nor pressures D-members of Congress to honor its agreements.

  127. 127
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Chuck Butcher is in the game dipshit.

  128. 128
    Notorious P.A.T. says:


    Again, here is someone trying to give a reason why Obama is correct to keep doing what Bush did. . . then saying that Obama has made a clean, strong break with Bush policies. By the way, he is not only holding people indefinitely for no reason but claiming he doesn’t need to pass a law allowing him to do so, just as Bush did. That’s 2 Bush policies for the price of 1.

    If you take a person into custody and want to prosecute them, but your case collapses, you let them go. What are we, Torquemada? We know they are guilty, but can’t prosecute them so into the bottomless pit they go?

    And anyway, there is no justification for saying Obama will lose re-election if he ends Bush policies when he won by promising to end those policies.

    One last point: I sure don’t think most of the detainees are guilty of anything. See here and here. The Red Cross also thinks there are many, many innocent people at Gitmo. Here is just one example.

  129. 129
    evie says:

    @Brian J:

    Wow. You’re right. Dodd’s out tomorrow.

    It’s a storm, folks, but we will weather it.

  130. 130
    kay says:


    Not to be cruel or anything, but Dodd being out is good news, I think.

  131. 131
    Stroszek says:

    @evie: Thank goodness. I love Dodd, but he needed to step aside.

  132. 132
    valdivia says:


    I think it is also very good news because he can do a lot more to push for certain things in the Senate that a reelection campaign would have prevented him from. Even in a blue state like CT.

  133. 133
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    Why am I in moderation?

    Oh, is there a 2-link limit? But I liiiiiike links!

  134. 134

    I could fill/waste a lot of time talking about the challenges of mid-terms and even worse the meaninglessness of early polls. The Ds may have some really bad problems or they may just have the ouch of being incumbents/majority in a midterm. That information is still a ways out.

    No national media attention/Pres campaign coat-tails lacking
    P-O base/activists
    Record vs promises
    General disgust with DC
    Again, so soon?

    The list of problems getting a turn out for mid-terms is long and IF you’ve aggravated it, well that can be bad.

    Polls about mid-terms are pretty meaningless until a month or two before hand, mostly depending on the candidates. The polling failure early is at least partly because people don’t give a shit early on.

    All that said, the Ds better bring a good game because the Rs have had their game face on since Nov 08. They’re assholes but you can bet a reliable 28% for them no matter what, from there it’s just filling in – hate is a real motivator.

  135. 135
    4jkb4ia says:


    From same article

    Mr. Tauzin said the White House had tracked the negotiations throughout, assenting to decisions to move away from ideas like the government negotiation of prices or the importation of cheaper drugs from Canada.

    OK, PhRMA was willing to come out and say that this was part of the deal.

  136. 136
    evie says:


    I know, but I am so sad. Lieberman stays put in CT and Dodd is out. Cruel world.

  137. 137
    Notorious P.A.T. says:


    Good work )

  138. 138
    James Hare says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:
    You really read well, don’t you? I was commiserating with Chuck, not calling him out. I usually don’t feed trolls — that only encourages them, but if you’re going to misrepresent what I’ve said I feel a need to defend myself.

  139. 139
    Max says:

    @evie: Dodd’s demise is of his own making. Something tells me he will be just fine.

    I’m betting Lieberman loses his seat in 2012.

  140. 140
    southpaw says:

    Hell is this comment thread. It’s a funny email, and I admire that. Dorgan however seems a decent fellow, and I wish him well.

    All that said, anybody who makes prescription drug reimportation his signature issue deserves a purple nurple and an atomic wedgie. We should buy drugs at second hand from foreign markets because we’re too timid to haggle with the manufacturers directly? For the love.

    Can you imagine quitting the United States Senate because the President wouldn’t go to the mattresses for that thumbsucker?

  141. 141
    Ailuridae says:

    @James Hare:

    The plotters planned the attacks to circumvent the security that existed at the time. If new security measures were put in place, I’m sure they would have found a way around them. The way I look at 9/11 was that it forever defeated hijacking as a terrorist tool—hijacking relies on the passengers complying with the hijackers. Obviously that is less likely after 9/11

    Do you remember what travelling before 9/11 was like in America? We didn’t take hi-jacking threats seriously as a country.

    As for what could have been done? Frankly, a whole lot. If you really want to look into the matter there is plenty of writing on it but by far the most accessible its Richard Clarke’s memoir. In essence the Bush security apparatus, at every team, demonstrated they didn’t take the threat from al-Qaeda seriously.

  142. 142
    kay says:


    Right. I always imagine them packing their bags and storming off, but he’ll be around a little while :)

    I did this “pick your perfect ideological candidate” silly check list type thing during the early 2008 primary and my ideal candidate was Chris Dodd, so I’m not at all surprised he’s wildly unpopular. It was a little disconcerting. I have never paid any attention to him at all, and there we were, apparent ideological soulmates.

    I didn’t know six GOP Senators were retiring. I knew Voinovich was out, but I wasn’t paying attention other than him. The WaPo says “six”. Are the other five in places like Texas?

  143. 143
    Ailuridae says:


    I know he is young but I wish they were promoting Murphy instead of Blumenthal

  144. 144
    evie says:


    I know he created his own problems, but he’s been a good Democrat on most issues over the years — the last few in particular. So I’m sad we’re losing a good one when so many other pond scum remain. I just heard. I’d like to think I’m allowed a moment to feel sorry about it all.

    I’m relieved that we’ll be able to keep the seat, though. Or at least, have a much better shot. I don’t know a thing about the contenders, but I’m sure I’ll read much soon.

  145. 145
    James Hare says:

    My thoughts exactly. Drug reimportation is one of the wimpiest policy ideas I’ve ever heard of. I also worry about unintended consequences. First of all, what would Americans poaching off of Canada’s drug prices do to Canadians? Should Canada really be responsible for drug purchasing for the United States in addition to their citizens? Secondly, wouldn’t the drug companies just drive a harder bargain with Canada to make up the lost profits? They might not be able to charge what they charge Americans, but if reimportation were widespread I have to believe they’d find some way to recoup the losses.

    Everything points to the need for huge wholesale change to our healthcare system. Anyone who is paying attention says that. Unfortunately we have to do healthcare reform with the Congress we have, not the Congress we would like to have.

  146. 146

    @Brick Oven Bill:
    Has been, BOB – and he gets it and that was his point.

    I will not ever run again, I did my bit and that was enough. I also know that I should not, in the interests of winning anything.

  147. 147
    Max says:

    @kay: The GOPers are dropping quick in the house too, but the MSM won’t report that, because it doesn’t support their “dems in trouble” script.

  148. 148
    Mr Furious says:

    Is Blumenthal the A.G. in CT? It’s been over twenty years since I’ve lived in CT, but that name rings a bell…

  149. 149
    kay says:


    I can’t remember the exact set of circumstances, but didn’t Lieberman make it impossible for Blumenthal ( any Democrat) to be appointed to his seat, had Lieberman won the Vice Presidency, in 2000?

    Am I wrong? I had this “cheating Blumenthal out of hypothetical senate seat” on my long list of Lieberman grievances, and there was a reason for that. It’s a long list. Maybe I just started adding things without cause. I’m irrational on Lieberman.

    So that could be fun, if true. For Blumenthal.

  150. 150
    General Winfield Stuck says:

    So I guess Obama just cut a deal with Pharma because he likes him some drug corps. Here is a clue for you geniuses, Obama is not cutting deals with corps because he likes them, he is not even really cutting anything with them. Every one of these little turd compacts is for one purpose and one purpose only, that does not soak in the progressive thick heads.

    IT IS TO GET THE 60 VOTES NEEDED IN THE SENATE TO GET A BILL PASSED. They, the Obama, administration is really negotiating with conservative senators to get their votes to reach the magic number of 60. It is they who are making demands for special treatment for big Pharma and whoever else the blue dogs speak for. There is no room for even one loss of one dem caucus vote. Nelson and a few others, due to complete GOP lockstep opposition, have Obama, the senate liberals, and the fucking country by the balls. That is reality and the devil will have his due to complete something no one else has come close to for 70 years of effort.

    And killing an entire bill cause maybe things will work down the road for getting the important reforms that are in this bill, is just pie in the sky stoopid. And there are important reforms present, though some others are missing.

  151. 151
    James Hare says:

    Before 2001 I was a teenager. I didn’t pay near as much attention to things like that as I do now. The only thing I can think of that would have stopped the 9/11 plot is reinforced cockpit doors. Mandating that change before 9/11 would have been nearly impossible — the political mandate was not there. Given the political situation between 1/20/2001 and 9/11/2001 (the unsettled Senate, the lingering anger from Democrats towards Bush) I don’t see how Bush could have ordered sweeping changes in airline security. His attitude towards terrorism was juvenile, but I don’t see how that made the attacks more likely to succeed. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

    You hit the nail on the head in your comment — as a NATION we didn’t take hijacking seriously before 9/11. That is not Bush’s failure alone.

  152. 152
    Ailuridae says:

    @Mr Furious:

    Yep, that’s him. He’s got a lot of Lieberman in him in the sense that the its pretty dangerous to be between him and a TV camera

  153. 153
    Ed in NJ says:

    All this gloom and doom over Democratic electoral prospects this early in the cycle is going to end up helping in the long run. Republicans, overconfident despite having horrendous approval ratings, are going to nominate a slate of wingnut teabaggers that will scare the shit out of people and motivate Democrats and moderate to get to the polls.

    Oh, and off topic, the People’s Governor is now an expert on terrorism:

    Palin: It’s a War, Not a Crime Spree

  154. 154
    RadioOne says:

    I hate the fact that Dorgan’s retiring -but I don’t know enough about North Dakota politics to know if there is some Democratic politician waiting in the wings to enter this race and make it competitive. The fact that your email guy says that incumbents have serious advantages in North Dakota makes this a vital race to elect a Democrat in an open seat vacated by a Democrat in 2010. Is there anyone in the party strong enough to take on Hoeven this year?

  155. 155
    kay says:


    I don’t know what to think yet. I’m still ignoring predictions, other than my own state, on which I willingly offer all kinds of predictions, foolishly and constantly.

  156. 156

    @James Hare:

    we didn’t take hijacking seriously before 9/11

    This failure was decades in the making, the official line was don’t take chances – let the police deal with it, whatever “it” was. The unacknowledged piece of this policy is that all the decision making is in the hands of someone loony enough to commit whatever crime. I have always been a bit different in that respect, if you threaten me you’d best do it because I’ll take that threat away and finish you with it – because I’m not kidding and I don’t trust you a bit.

    I sure don’t tell other people what to do in that respect.

  157. 157
    Notorious P.A.T. says:


    If I remember right, Lieberman did not give up his Senate seat while campaigning as a vice presidential candidate.

  158. 158
    James Hare says:

    @General Winfield Stuck:
    Well the “reality-based community” wants to ignore reality and substitute fantasy. For some reason that seems to happen when your “side” is in power. Not exactly a great way to argue for policy — it makes it much easier for the folks who control the levers of power to ignore you.

  159. 159
    Max says:

    @kay: I agree. I’m an O-bot so I trust that Obamarahm has it under control and knows what they are doing.

    It can’t be easy for Dodd to step aside, but it’s for the good of the party and I appreciate his service.

    I just hate that the media is going to spin this as dems running from Obama, when that’s just not reality.

  160. 160
    Ailuridae says:

    @James Hare:

    You’re equivocating again. Bush essentially took no action against al-Qaeda before 9/11 and openly ignored requests for meetings and resources from his counter-terrorism expert.

    You have a narrative that any President would have done the due diligence to prevent 9/11. There is strong evidence that Bush did nothing regarding al-Qaeda until after 9/11. There is also strong evidence that senior officials like Rice and Wolfowitz were ignorant or contemptuous of the threat 9/11 posed. I have suggested a starting point that you can begin reading about these issues but to argue from tautology that President Bush took reasonable precautions because any President would have done so and the attacks still occurred is just horribly sloppy thinking. There are facts here and they point overwhelmingly to the Bush cabinet being largely clueless about al-Qaeda

  161. 161
    danimal says:

    @General Winfield Stuck: General, you’re repeating yourself…

    60 Dems never meant there were 60 votes for progressive bills, but this never occurred to the armchair politicos. They’re disappointed and determined to lash out. Unfortunately, they are lashing out at the folks trying to implement progressive policies rather than the folks trying to kill the progressive agenda. They seem to have totally forgotten that conservatism is a greater threat to progressive causes than Rahm, or Obama, or Reid.

  162. 162
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    The GOPers are dropping quick in the house too, but the MSM won’t report that, because it doesn’t support their “dems in trouble” script.

    Also I hear the NRCC is broke. But Michael Steele will fix it!

  163. 163
    kay says:

    @Ed in NJ:

    I saw she’s back in family court, battling a nineteen year old.
    People who spend a lot of time in family court should not be President.
    Just trust me on this. If you’re suing family members on a regular basis, you have conflict-drama issues that the country as a whole doesn’t have time to help you work out.
    They will rue the day they hire her.

  164. 164
    kay says:


    I don’t know that they will with Dodd. I think he’s been in trouble a while now. I know they will promote that general theme, however.
    They completely missed Republicans. Dana Bash is all but moping around.

  165. 165

    At least part of the BushCo problem was that they couldn’t take AQ seriously without vindicating Clinton from the tail wags the dog charges about attacking AQ the GOPer made. Anything Clinton was poisonous to their thinking.

  166. 166
    General Winfield Stuck says:


    General, you’re repeating yourself…

    I know

    I know

  167. 167
    Ed in NJ says:


    Yes, I read that she has her minions set to go off on a terror campaign against the judges in the custody case, so that apparently qualifies her as an expert on the subject.

  168. 168
    Ailuridae says:

    @Chuck Butcher:

    Yeah, I mean. The sitting Speaker of the House accused Clinton of ordering those bombing runs to distract the nation from the important business of the Lewinski scandal. That really happened people just choose to forget and are then shocked at Dick Cheney saying the President doesn’t take national security seriously.

  169. 169
    Martin says:

    Terrorists will *always* route around the security. They will always be willing to pour more money and energy into getting around the security than we are willing to pour into stopping them.

    The point is to force the terrorists to make ever greater compromises. To aim for smaller bombs, or to commit so many people to accomplish the goal that they can only hijack one plane instead of four.

    In that respect, the system *did* work. The guy didn’t walk in with a Krakatoa in his carryon, he walked in with an unreliable explosive in his underwear. He compromised enough that it led to failure. Now, it turns out he wasn’t an unknown, and so that part of the system did fail, but the screening efforts against an unknown worked well enough. We’re now in the position of asking if we are willing to put more into making sure he doesn’t even get that far next time, and Obama is saying ‘yes’. That’s fine. There’s no black line here. Adding more is good if it’s sensible stuff, and the full-body scanners are sensible, IMO. I’d like to see some of the theatre torn down as well, so let’s hope that happens, but let’s not pretend that we can ever make this bulletproof.

  170. 170
    bago says:

    Jeremey’s spoken. In class today. (apology for the non/sequitor)

  171. 171
    Jim says:

    That news about Dodd makes me a little sad. He was never perfect, but sure as hell better than most. From what I read out of CT, he’s falling on his sword (or getting out while it’s his choice, if you prefer).

    I know it will never happen, but I would love it if he ran at Lieberman in 2012.

  172. 172
    James Hare says:

    I guess I’m misreading you. My argument is with those who seem to believe that Bush allowed 9/11 to happen. I agree that his administration’s attitude towards terrorism was less-than-serious. I’m just not sure how much could have been done given the political climate. I think we would both agree that the Bush administration’s failure to stop 9/11 was an error, not a deliberate strategy.

  173. 173
    Sentient Puddle says:

    So, any chance Lamont decides to switch his run to this newly-open Senate seat? If he ran and won, that could prove to have…interesting dynamics.

  174. 174
    James Hare says:

    Which just goes to show that the Republican party was a bunch of knee-jerk partisans long before 2000. If I remember correctly large parts of the original Afghanistan war plan were lifted directly from plans the Clinton administration had drawn up but not acted upon due to political considerations like that.

  175. 175
    Mike in NC says:

    GOPers are dropping quick in the house too, but the MSM won’t report that, because it doesn’t support their “dems in trouble” script.

    Talkin’ about you, Chris Matthews, you fat shit…

  176. 176
    burnspbesq says:

    Wait … I have an idea!

    Obama should just prorogue Parliament and get the Governor General to approve the health care reform bill.

    Oh … sorry … wrong country.

  177. 177
    Ailuridae says:


    I know it will never happen, but I would love it if he ran at Lieberman in 2012.

    I don’t think you are the only person running this around your brain but Senator Dodd will be 68 for the end of that campaign (and it would be absolutely brutal)

  178. 178
    danimal says:

    I’m glad Dodd is resigning. He is a mostly decent man and he is a reliable vote for liberal causes, but he was way too cozy with the financial industry and that coziness was way too much of a problem. He made his bed with a below market mortgage rate, and now he must lie in it.

  179. 179
    Yutsano says:

    @burnspbesq: Stop teasing me you good ol’ country lawyer. :)

  180. 180
    Jim says:

    Talkin’ about you, Chris Matthews, you fat shit…

    HuffPo headline: Dems Dropping Like Flies

    I take some consolation in the probability that they’ll get tired of the “everything’s good news for Republicans!” reflex by early summer and chase after some other butterfly or shiny object that catches their eye

  181. 181
    Comrade Luke says:

    I know I already posted this last night, but what the heck.

    I didn’t realize that what’s happening is basically a re-hash of what happened when Clinton was president.

    I’m guessing that the higher number of Democratic voters threatening to sit is largely due to the messages they’re getting from the news, which is anti-Dem, all the time.

  182. 182
    Comrade Luke says:

    @danimal: by that notion, shouldn’t Barney Frank resign too?

    Also, isn’t anyone who replaces Dodd going to be in bed with the financial/mortgage industries as well?

    It’s flippin’ Connecticut fergawdsake.

  183. 183
    Darryl says:

    January 5th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
    James Hare
    …purity troll…concern trolling…

    Write like a non-retard, please. If you can.

  184. 184
    danimal says:

    @Comrade Luke: I hate to be overly tactical here, but Barney Frank’s seat is safe and Chris Dodd’s seat isn’t (with Dodd as the candidate). “Generic CT Dem” will win easily, but Dodd’s baggage meant that retaining the seat would take a tremendous effort.

    Also, I think the relevant factor is Dodd’s chairmanship over banking and finance, not that he’s from CT.

  185. 185
    Martin says:

    @Comrade Luke: Bullshit. The real damage is coming from the left. Democrats aren’t willing to defend their own. Sure, they’ll ultimately still vote for them, but they’ll shit on them the whole way there and turn off independents.

  186. 186
    James Hare says:

    Okay, I’ll start doing what you say because you insulted me. I generally make it a point to acquiesce to the desires of folks who insult me.

    And just because it’s a pet peeve — the word “retard” is a nasty slur that should not be directed at people who are developmentally disabled. As one of my first jobs after college, I worked at the Key Center in Springfield, Virginia. I would love to see you walk up to some of the people there and call them “retards” to their faces.

    At least I’ve tried to be respectful to other commenters. Obviously that is too much for you.

  187. 187

    as a NATION we didn’t take hijacking seriously before 9/11.

    What a crock. Air travel security, such as it was, was built around the legacy of actual hijacking threats going back over 40 years.

    The type of hijacking that happened on 911 was new. Organized, multi-plane initiatives aimed at using the planes themselves as weapons was pretty much invented on 911, changing all the paradigms. But to suggest that hijacking was ignored before 911 is just … well, I’d say stupid, if you didn’t have the excuse of youth and an apparent very large lack of information.

    Hijackings were carried out for ransom, as blackmail, as a way to escape to a distant locale, or as a means for mass murder-suicide, long before the possibility of 911 and airplane as WMD occurred to anyone.

    “Take this airplane to Cuba” was a boilerplate comedy line going back to the 1960’s.

  188. 188
    MikeJ says:

    Sure, they’ll ultimately still vote for them, but they’ll shit on them the whole way there and turn off independents.

    Which is exactly what happened to Carter. Expect to see a Sister Souljah moment in early ’12. And then listen to the people who have been yapping at Obama’s heels to complain that he’s being mean to the people who call him a war criminal. I think the hippie punching will work.

  189. 189
  190. 190
    Comrade Luke says:

    @Martin: The article talks about how “progressives” abandoned the Dems in ’94.

    Still, if, the right wing has the media, “the left” is mostly on the blogs and the blogs don’t have nearly enough reach to affect projected Dem voter turnout polling numbers…where is it coming from?

    And where did it come from for Carter and Clinton, when the internets didn’t exist?

  191. 191
    James Hare says:

    “Take this plane to Cuba” and crashing a plane into a building are two very different things. I’ll admit my knowledge is limited — I’m only 30 — but the fact that you acknowledge that “Take this plane to Cuba” was a punchline kind of serves to reinforce my point. Before 9/11 passengers would cooperate with a hijacker. After 9/11 they would not.

    I did not intend to make the argument that hijacking planes did not happen prior to 9/11. As to using planes as missiles — that had been a part of the Bojinka plot. Ramzi Youssef or an accomplice was supposed to hijack a plane or use a small plane filled with explosives to attack CIA headquarters. The Bojinka plot also included exploding I believe 8 airliners en route between Asian countries and the United States. As others have pointed out we took terrorism so seriously in the 90s that the Republicans attacked the President for retaliating against Al Qaeda after the Cole attack. From what I remember of US history, we’ve always looked at an attack on our navy as an act of war; however, the Republican party was more than willing to turn that into a political football when it suited their purposes.

    But of course most of my “knowledge” of the Clinton administration is secondhand. I was far more concerned with high school, girlfriends and other things that were far more interesting than politics. I really didn’t give half a shit until November 8, 2000.

  192. 192
    mcd410x says:

    I just don’t care.

  193. 193

    I’ll be go-to-hell, I worked for BHO and I wrote for them and I’ve had my words used by the candidate and I was never under the illusion that he was a messiah and nobody that paid attention to politics seemed to think he was. But people, including me thought he was pretty good. I had disagreements then that I kept to myself and I have them now. I still don’t think he’s a messiah and I still think he’s pretty good – and he fucks up…also.

    I’ll be fucked running if I’ll play the good lil Bushie and not call BS when it happens. I do call bullshit on indefinite detention, including US citizens, and I do call bullshit on State’s Secrets filings and a couple other fuck ups. When we ain’t on the same side – we ain’t. You don’t get that, then there’s little I can say to you.

  194. 194


    Yeah, like that. Hey, what’s that over there on the riverbank …. a $100 bill?

  195. 195

    I really didn’t give half a shit until November 8, 2000.

    Hm. Well, your life story is compelling, sure. I’d send you my email address to subscribe to the series, but I just found out that I am going to die. Don’t feel sorry for me, I mean someday, don’t know when, but I am taking no chances. I have a lot of things to do first.

    But anyway, like I said, hijacking was the central focus of air travel security for a good forty years before 911.

    As long as we agree on that, we’re golden.

  196. 196
    Yutsano says:

    @Chuck Butcher: This. I’m directly affected by DADT, probably more than most on this board. It would be my greatest fucking wish that Obama could sign an executive order and that dreadful policy would end. But I understand: It. Does. Not. Work. That. Way. DADT is an act of Congress, no President can simply overturn that simply by the signing of an order. We already went through eight years of that and look where we are. I will take reasonable steps to change it rather than unitary decisions that can and will be fought in court.

  197. 197
    phantomist says:

    Chuck Butcher” I still don’t think he’s a messiah ”

    Stamp em’ blue and send em’ thru.

  198. 198
    Yutsano says:

    @DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio: There are people who still hunt around southwestern Washington looking for either Cooper’s body or his stolen stash. In fact it made headlines a few years ago when a large amount of bills were found in a local river. The dates on the bills turned out to be wrong but it reignited Cooper fever for a few weeks anyway.

  199. 199
    Martin says:

    I still don’t think he’s a messiah and I still think he’s pretty good – and he fucks up…also.
    I’ll be fucked running if I’ll play the good lil Bushie and not call BS when it happens.

    Sure, but the left has to make clear that they want someone more to the left, not more to the right. That’s not actually clear – they don’t clearly articulate what their vision is and how to get there, just what they’re pissed off about.

    That’s what happened here with HRC. The left wanted fucking unicorns. There were no votes for that and the clock was ticking on the Dems 60 seats with an election in just 2 weeks. Rather than get what could be gotten, they insisted on what was impossible and resorted to character attacks against Democrats, ultimately aligning with the far right.

    To someone who doesn’t eat politics, you’d be forgiven to conclude that Dems were pissed that Obama wasn’t more like McCain. And you need a lot of those people that don’t eat politics.

  200. 200
  201. 201
    Yutsano says:

    @nodakfarmboy: Interesting choice. Do you have any idea if A) she’s interested and B) what her chances are if she runs? North Dakota doesn’t strike me as the sort of place where wingnuts would do well, they’re just too practical and reasonable for that.

  202. 202

    I was far more concerned with high school

    Heh, that just caught my eye. The only thing I was concerned with in high school was getting the hell out of there. One more adult telling me I couldn’t chew gum, or that I had to tuck in my shirt, and I was going to snap.

  203. 203


    I’m directly affected by DADT

    If I’m clear on this, what he could do is stop enforcement of DADT which obviously wouldn’t kill the law. I think I’d prefer to kill the law, but I’m not being fucked over by it.

    In some ways this is like the HCR thing, some say, “this is good enough” and some say, “bad isn’t good enough.” And then. what is there votes for?

    I don’t have smart money to bet on DADT being reversed in Congress – one way or the other. Instead of money like HCR on that it’s going to be prejudices and want to bet which is more powerful? Not me.

    You in Spokane? (not that it’s my business)

  204. 204
    James Hare says:

    My folks are both teachers. As a result, I was fairly concerned about grades and such.

  205. 205
    Yutsano says:

    @DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio: I’ll go officially on the record and say I HATED high school. There is really only one person I stay in contact with from there and that is intermittent. I went to college with another one but I haven’t spoken to her in awhile. It’s almost worth it for me to join Facebook to catch all those folks…almost.

  206. 206


    I know, that’s why I said the thing about the money on the riverbank.

  207. 207
    Yutsano says:

    @Chuck Butcher: He’d have to get the military to go along with that, and with everything else that’s going on with the wars and defense procurement and all the last thing he needs to do is alienate the Department of Defense. They’ve accumulated a ton of power in this country since WWII and they won’t give in to change easily. It’s not the same as Truman unilaterally integrating the armed forces, but I think at some point before his first term is up it will get reversed, possibly at the same time as DOMA. But we’ll see what happens.

    I’m southwest of Spokane in the Tri-Cities. Yeah not my first choice but my job is about to make a power play to keep me from quitting and my family lives here.

  208. 208


    I pretty much came to hate high school also. I pretty much lost interest toward the end there. I have a weird life history. I graduated from HS at age 16. The main effect of that was that I was still pretty green when I packed off to college. It took a couple of years for me to realize that I was really free and could do what I really wanted to do, or else it took a couple of years for me to figure out that there was something I really wanted to do, as opposed to doing what other people wanted me to do. So then I did that, instead, and then it really got more interesting.

  209. 209
    nodakfarmboy says:

    @Yutsano: Therein lies the problem. John Hoeven may be an empty suit, but he’s not your standard issue “wingnut”. In fact, at one point, he was widely thought to be a conservative Democrat in ND political circles, before he realized it would be easier to get elected as a Republican. (Hoeven was not involved directly in partisan politics while President of the state owned Bank of ND. Teabagger alert- a state owned bank? gasp!- SOSCHULISM!)

    That makes him even more difficult to beat. He has no real strong accomplishments as governor, but he hasn’t messed up badly either. The true wingnuts actually kind of detest the guy, because he pushed for expanded government spending in the state, making use of our large, oil-driven, budget surpluses- it helps a guy be popular when he’s making it rain.

    As to Heidi- I have no idea if she’s interested or not. She was running strong against Hoeven for governor in 2000 when they went head to head. Unfortunately, late in the campaign, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, which hurt her with some voters. I personally visited with a several voters who said “I voted for John, because I was concerned about Heidi’s health”, including one who said she voted against Heidi because she wanted to make sure Heidi wouldn’t be burdened by winning the office, so she could focus on fighting the cancer. Long story short, Heidi is very popular, but John Hoeven is probably even more popular, and has been directly in the public eye the past several years, while Heidi has had a lower profile.

    I’d love to see her run. She’s a great person, energetic as all get out, and would give John one hell of a race.

  210. 210
    Yutsano says:

    @DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio: I graduated at 17 and got shipped off to college, where I finally figured out who the fuck I was. Didn’t come out until I was 19 however, I just needed the right situation to do so. Been up and down and all around and it brought me to where I am now. And where I’m going could turn out to be very entertaining.

  211. 211


    IIRC the money was found along the Columbia River just northwest of Vancouver, WA.

  212. 212

    We’re neighbors of a sort – out here we are, others wouldn’t understand.

    Took a Harley ride up to the Tri this spring with a dozen others to visit a bike accessories store (business of one of us) & Harley dealer. My 98 SuperGlide blew a rocker cover gasket in the Blues and I had that repaired there. Good guys, pulled a scooter off a stand and put me on – got me out in about 2 hrs.

  213. 213
    Yutsano says:

    @nodakfarmboy: Do you foresee a wingnut primary? One positive of the press hammering the doom and gloom scenario for the Democrats is the wingnuts are going to get an overly optimistic sense of their political power and I can see them demanding purity even more and more. Hell they’re practically getting handed the Illinois Senate and they’re already fucking that up, not to mention the slow teabagging of Crist.

  214. 214


    IIRC the money was found along the Columbia River just northwest of Vancouver, WA.

    Pretty much right. It seems the best guess is it came downstream into the Columbia and washed up.

  215. 215
    Yutsano says:

    @Chuck Butcher: One of my favorite drives is going down the Columbia on the Washington side down Highway 14. On a clear day the views from so many of the spots is nothing short of phenomenal. But again too many folks don’t get it, and I’m just fine with that.

    EDIT: There used to be a HUGE Harley dealer up here that shut down a few years back. I’m not entirely certain what happened there either. I think it’s some kind of other dealership now, possibly mobile homes.

  216. 216
    Martin says:

    Ok, that John Oliver TDS piece was pretty funny and I think he might be onto something – that conservatives really only want to be 6 years old again.

    I’ve heard that same sort of thing from my mom, how everything was better in the 50s (when she was 6). I might have to pick at that scab a bit.

  217. 217
    nodakfarmboy says:

    @Yutsano: No. The GOP in this state is a good old boys network, and while we’ve had a bit of teabagger sturm und drang around the state, it’s pretty minor, and kept in check. If Hoeven wants to run, the spot will be his.

    If he doesn’t want to run, well then, all bets are off. Maybe Drew Wrigley (Bush appointed Federal Attorney) or Wayne Stenehjem, the AG. In which case, I’m pretty sure Earl Pomeroy would step up to run for the office, because he could beat them. I wish I’d known earlier today… I would have asked Earl when I saw him.

    It’s all up to Hoeven how this will play out.

    I find it all a bit amusing. ND is a very small place (population wise), and I, a person of little importance, have had the chance to meet all of these people. Politics in ND is a strange beast. So many elected officials, so few people. You can’t go to a meeting or ribbon cutting without seeing a Senator or Governor. You begin to forget how abnormal it really is.

    Hell, I even know one of the guys who is at the heart of the Teabag movement in the state. It’s a small, small place.

  218. 218


    wingnut primary?

    That’s a pretty good question in a fair number of places. If they over-play that hand it could go very badly for them. Scaring voters will get them out and those pricks don’t seem to know any better … right now. Some of them won’t ever know any better. How far you’d have to go to scare ND voters is a question and I’m not the guy with that answer.

  219. 219


    Excellent point. I have a hunch that when the history of 2010 is written, as pertains to electoral politics, the story will be about the overreaching of the GOP, and particularly the right wing of the GOP. The crazy wing.

    Their insane rhetoric and hate filled gloom and doom bullshit is going to scare the middle of the populace. For years they practiced basically stealth crazy, getting positions and seats without making a lot of noise. Then they got uppity and decided their britches were bigger than they actually are. Now they will say or do any crazy thing. I think they lost several points in the last election just by going along with that “pals around with terrorists” and “S0ciaIi-sm” nonsense. Death panels and all that crap will come back to haunt them.

    So-called conservatives forget that their godfather, Barry Goldwater, was painted as a scary loon and lost at the national level by what I think is the largest margin of defeat in modern American political history. It’s a lesson they still have not learned over there in Crazyville.

  220. 220


    Highway 14

    A great road for a scoot, sucks eggs in a 36 ft motorhome. I’ll be making that run again this year, not sure where I’ll cross at, but as far east as possible and take it to I-205 into PDX metro area. I-84 from here – anything else isn’t good Harley stuff crossing the Blues.

  221. 221
    Yutsano says:

    @DonBelacquaDelPurgatorio: The Dems need to do one simple thing to win, and so far they’re picking the wrong albatross. They’re trying to tie the failures of Dubya to all the republicans but that’s wrong. The true killer of Republican hopes is Bible Spice herself. The more she talks and supports teabaggers the more they look either stupid or insane. We need more Sarah involved in more and more races. Make her try to be a power broker and moderates will think those candidates either crazy or as stupid as she is. Plus I’m waiting for more gems from Levi to come out. Okay so maybe I’m channeling Sully a bit there. :)

  222. 222
    eric k says:


    The Dems have a way better chance of holding onto the seat with Dodd out, he was toast and getting out now so a stronger candidate can get in is a pretty honorable move on his part.

  223. 223
    Yutsano says:

    @Chuck Butcher: Yeah not exactly my route of choice for something that size. In my Alero though it’s a really sweet drive. I don’t think you can cross at the dams anymore so the furthest east is Hood River now I think but don’t quote me on that.

    EDIT: And on that note must adjourn. I have an early dr’s appt tomorrow. Take care y’all.

  224. 224


    furthest east is Hood River

    Metal grate bridge deck is spooky on a scooter, Golden Gate was very weird. Thanks to wifely insistence I left a damn $500 mirror in the Columbia on that POS bridge – with DS tires on the center line.

  225. 225
    Comrade Kevin says:

    Every time I see this “Rahm secretly is controlling everything behind Obama’s back” crap, it makes me think of stuff like this.

  226. 226
    Lincolnshire Poacher says:

    Doug your friend is mentally unstable and likely a registered Republican. But that seems to be redundant these days. Dorgan was a good senator fighting for things like Net Neutrality and lower drug costs. But maybe we shouldn’t have that, let the free market decide, and get back to us in a couple of years when your friend is bemoaning the costs of his Viagra and how the Internet does not function as well in the past so he cannot download pornographic images of Captain Janeway.

  227. 227

    I find the idea of Obama being ‘run’ pretty damn comical.

  228. 228


    east is Hood River

    Actually I-82 will get me across onto WA14. Good I’ll be taking that run once it warms up.

  229. 229
    reality-based says:


    as a now-returned, NoDaker, I say “hear, hear!” Dorgan deserves respect, God Damn it. Let’s show a little.

    If you want to see some progressive stones, Google Dorgan’s speech in 1999, when he voted against the repeal of Glass- Steagall and deregualtion of derivatives that all the Clintonites – including Rahm, damn it – were pushing for. Prophetic. And Gutsy.

    Dorgan also fought the good fight on income disparity – read “Take This Job and Ship It” and engaged in a one-man desperate rear-guard action to protect net neutrality.

    One of the advantages of being back in NoDak is that when your Senator gives a town hall, you actually get to talk to him, since there’s only about 75 people there.

    I spent an enjoyable five minutes with Dorgan in the summer of 08, talking about the perception vs reality problem of the Sente filibuster, the sudden need for 60 votes to pass anything, why the Democrats weren’t now yelling “up-er-down vote” at every opportunity –

    Dorgan is a really good guy. And sorry, he got screwed by Rahm . (and no, I do NOT think Rahm has been a force for good, either on policy or politics. )

    So when Rahm is eased out after the 2010 elections – hey, I’n just predicting here – and Obama realizes that his suck-up-to-corporations politics is a dead loser – well, then – Byron Dorgan for Treasury Secretary! Believe me, Wall Street would shit their pants. (And Elliot Spitzer as Attorney General, while I’m dreaming big. )

    Anyway – Dorgan has earned respect, is what I’m saying.

  230. 230
    reality-based says:


    Sorry, but getting cheaper prescription drugs is a HUGE god-damn deal to Seniors – given the pharma- give-away that is Medicare Part D, with it’s doughnut hole – and to many, many others with chronic illnesses requiring expensive drugs.

    Dorgan saw drug re-importations as the easiest way to force Pharma to stop gouging the American consumer. And given that Pharma went to the mat to have the White House – and Rahm, again – kill Dorgan’s bill for them – it was obviously a pretty damn big deal for them.

    Again – don’t disrespect my guy Dorgan.

  231. 231
    NobodySpecial says:

    I’d really love to know why some people are pissing on Dorgan here. Yeah, he’s more conservative than Ted Kennedy. That’s been mentioned as an occupational hazard of electing Dems from Red States. But why is it that President Nelson can get cover as ‘The best we can get from Kansas’, but when we get a Dorgan who might be conservative in most areas, but actually PUSHES for legislation that’s better than RedState oatmeal, we yank his nuts for being a ‘fake progressive’?

  232. 232
    Alex S. says:

    This is unfair to Byron Dorgan. He must have been disillusioned with the Senate; see his unheard warning not to repeal Glass-Steagall and the drug importation issue. He wasn’t even a major figure in the democratic caucus in spite of his value. Conrad and Baucus have always been bigger names. And also, he might just have decided to retire because he wants a retirement to do the things he always wanted to do. Some people actually like that.
    The main difference to Dodd: Dorgan could have held that seat. The voters liked him. Dodd however was almost dead meat if the Republicans nominated Rob Simmons. Richard Blumenthal will beat any Republican. Ned Lamont… well… it’s too risky to let him run. It would be too risky to let him run against Joe Lieberman, too. And Lieberman might actually see a better chance to survive as a Democrat now, with Blumenthal out of the game in 2012. So as disgusted as I am, Lieberman profits from Dodd’s retirement. Someone like Rob Simmons might drop out now to run for governor, also an open seat.

  233. 233
    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal) says:


    I’m with John, let the cards fall where they may. If people are so stupid as to double the vote of the Repubs by not voting at all or even worse, doubling down on the stupid by voting for Republicans, then we deserve what we get out of it. This country is comprised of intelligent and stupid voters, some voters are gifted enough to be both.

    Stupid is winning and the endlessly bickering intelligent are helping them do it. They only see the trees they want and are completely ignoring the forest that surrounds them.

  234. 234
    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal) says:

    @Chuck Butcher:

    We hit 14 every summer on the way up to Spokane and back. I cross over at The Dalles and ride to the end of 14 (at 395) and reverse for the way back. It’s a great ride on a bike and the traffic is usually light. A few nice places to pull over along the Columbia makes it all the better.

    No rush, just ride…

  235. 235
    contessakitty says:

    With Dodd gone as well, are the Democrats doing what the GOP were when they could tell they wouldn’t be on the winning team anymore? Not that I’m a fan of GOP, I’m a Democrat but I get the weird feeling that these three Democrats are fleeing what they think is a sinking ship.

  236. 236
    Stroszek says:

    @contessakitty: No, Dodd is retiring because he wouldn’t win reelection… the same is likely true of Dorgan. Keep in mind that:

    (a) there are retirements like this every cycle
    (b) there are more Republicans than Democrats retiring in both the House and Senate

    The Village has just decided that standard Dem retirements mean DOOM OMG! this year.

  237. 237
    TR says:


    What Stroszek said. All three were facing tough re-election fights, and with these moves, the Democrats should be certainly able to keep the CT Senate seat and likely retain the Colorado governor’s seat. ND Senate is a lost cause, but I think Dorgan bowing out now is actually good for Dems, as it lets them shift resources elsewhere.

    Also, it helps to keep perspective. Two Democrats are retiring from the Senate, but six Republicans are too. Four Blue Dog Democrats are retiring from the House, but fourteen Republicans are too.

  238. 238
    4jkb4ia says:

    This thread has basically moved on, but the frustrating thing is that most of the Democratic caucus gets it and could pass a pretty good bill, and the same people that were being complained about during the Bush era are still there to thwart it. Of course Caro was aware that the Senate was designed this way, to have two-thirds there after every election.

  239. 239
    4jkb4ia says:

    And if there is any bench to take on Ben Nelson or Mary Landrieu other than Scott Kleeb, I missed it.

  240. 240
    b-psycho says:

    Y’know, the government wouldn’t have to negotiate drug prices down from the ledge if not for granting Big Pharma those monopoly privileges a.k.a. “patents”…

  241. 241
    Mr Furious says:

    I’m all for Scott Kleeb advancing, but how is he going to do that against Mary Landrieu?

  242. 242
    Mumphrey says:

    Don’t know if anybody else has brought this up yet, but I don’t think Dorgan wears a wig; I think it’s a combover. Now I know it might not seem like a big deal, but I think it’s important to get the little things right. Maybe the Washington Post could take a few months off their coverage of the party crashers to look into the appalling lack of ethics of the aide who mistakenly claimed Dorgan wears a wig. Also, calling him a “prissy little bitch” is uncivil. Let’s get David Broder on that forthwith.

  243. 243
    mak says:

    “A Smelly Puddle in His Depends” is the name of my next band.

  244. 244
    IndieTarheel says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.:

    I’m laughing at his hair in that picture. Who painted it on?

    The hair is comical, and explains that even as an (alleged) adult, he’s only Gov. Goodhair.
    Now Mr. T’s hair, on the other hand…

  245. 245

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