Not Human

What the hell is wrong with people:

Investigators say as many as 20 people were involved in or stood and watched the gang rape of a 15-year-old girl outside a California high school homecoming dance Saturday night.

Police posted a $20,000 reward Tuesday for anyone who comes to them with information that helps arrest and convict those involved in what authorities describe as a 2½-hour assault on the Richmond High School campus in suburban San Francisco.

Two teenage suspects have been jailed, but more arrests, as many as 20 total, are expected, according to a police detective.

Seriously. What the hell is wrong with people that up to twenty people stood around or participated in the gang rape of a woman for TWO AND A HALF HOURS and they never once thought “Hey, this is wrong” or “Hey, this is a person” or “Hey, I should call the police.” I know it is unrealistic, but I wouldn’t mind putting everyone of these people in jail for life. They are sociopaths, and that poor girl’s life is ruined. I’m not sure how she will ever recover from something like this.

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226 replies
  1. 1
    valdivia says:

    Shudder. Yeah I am with you John. One reason rowdy crowds always freak me out a bit, I always feel the ugly psychology of crowds lurking beneath.

    This girls is going to need some serious support and therapy.

  2. 2
    Zifnab says:

    Where the hell was campus security? 2.5 hours and not a single cop comes by? No teachers? No chaperons? No nothing?

    This is insane on so many levels.

  3. 3
    geg6 says:

    Two and a half hours?????

    Seriously?

    Damn. I hope those bastards and anyone hanging around watching all DIAF.

    Unfortunately, my guess is that the perpetrators are probably minors and will get next to nothing.

    And the poor girl will lose any chance of therapy because her health insurer will cancel her coverage.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....35000.html

  4. 4
    d-pressd says:

    When asked for comment, KBR said they had no plans to bring their recruiting team back to Richmond High School.

  5. 5
    funluvn says:

    Barbarians, pure and simple. The inability of people to care about someone other than themselves is becoming a pox on this nation. There is a group of people that have been pushing the “me first” ideology for some time now, and their sickly chickens are coming home to roost.

  6. 6
    Maxwel says:

    Those who watched should be arrested as accessories.

  7. 7
    Lavocat says:

    Truly sick. I had hoped this was some sort of sick joke.

    I simply cannot imagine this happening in the US. I guess I am very naive. In the third world perhaps (as recently occurred when Guinean soldiers gangraped woman in public, en masse, in broad daylight).

    Where were all those teabaggers who pack heat?

    Still, to actually WATCH this and NOT call the police? I just don’t get it. WTF?

  8. 8
    Betsy says:

    Someone on another blog linked to the aol coverage of it, and my god, the comments are a fucking cesspool. So many people saying victim-blaming things like “well, she was drinking, what did she expect?” I wanted to punch them all in the face, hard.

  9. 9
    SGEW says:

    But this is, alas, all too human. This is what humans do. It is hardly unprecedented.

    This is why some of us are cynics or misanthropes. What the hell is wrong with them? They’re bloody ignorant apes, like most men throughout history. Blame the primates. All we can do is punish transgressors, try to mitigate the damage, and keep on fighting the lizard brain through education, socialization, and the law.

    /cynic

  10. 10
    Hann1bal says:





    Wow.

    I would kinda think that there are some things that you see, and should automatically think, “Maybe I should call the police right now.” I would kinda think gang rape of a 15-year-old would be one of those things. Apparently I’m wrong. Silly me.

    People ask for proof that there is a kind and loving God in this universe. Now I can’t give any evidence of that, but I think that if God exists, this is conclusive evidence that He has a lot of self-control. ‘Cause if I were God, and I had seen that happen, those assholes would be tiny particles of ash drifting on the wind.

  11. 11
    adolphus says:

    I can’t help but agree if initial reports pan out. However, in the past when stories like this hit the press, further investigations typically reveal that people did try to intervene or did call the police, but their efforts were ineffectual, ignored, or whatever.

    Of course these details get buried or get small blurbs at best.

    If this is how it pans out, my outrage knows no bounds, but fresh off the balloon boy (and not so freshly off of the Duke Lacrosse team fiasco, Tawana Brawley, that chucklehead who was mugged by an Obama supporter last year and of course Kitty Genovese) we should be cautious in accepting the first, emotional reports of such an incident.

  12. 12
    Zifnab says:

    @d-pressd: Nonsense. This was all part of the San Fransisco Values. I blame Nancy Pelosi.

  13. 13
    Hann1bal says:

    @Lavocat: That is why I ignore most comment sections, except at places like, well, this blog. Places where I can rest assured that at least some of the commentariat can think clearly enough to know that this sort of thing is wrong. For instance, most WaPo commenters are maybe half as smart as a baseball, and many of the people commenting on NYT blogs could match that standard. No offense meant to baseballs, of course.

  14. 14
    valdivia says:

    @Betsy:

    ugh, I hate when people do that.

  15. 15
    Dream On says:

    First time I’ve heard the hellhole of Richmond described as “suburban.” Maybe suburban like East LA.

  16. 16
    LD50 says:

    @Zifnab: Richmond High is about 15 minutes drive away from me. My daughter goes to another (safer) high school in the same district. That same night she was going to her own homecoming dance at the other school.

    In answer to your question, there was a ton of security, including at least two Richmond PD officers and about 8 campus security officers, but they were all inside the dance, where they thought any trouble would be. This incident took place out on the grounds of the school away from the dance, where nothing was being patrolled.

    The description here of Richmond as being ‘suburban San Francisco’ is very misleading. This isn’t some kind of River’s Edge thing. Richmond is about half black, half hispanic, VERY poor, and has a per capita crime and murder rate higher than Oakland and LA. It’s a very vibrant city, but also very very socially messed up one, with a huge drug and gang problem.

  17. 17
    RedKitten says:

    Crowd mentality can be phenomenally ugly.

    Unfortunately, my guess is that the perpetrators are probably minors and will get next to nothing.

    You’re likely right, and that is incredibly depressing. I mean, I’m all for rehabilitation and second chances, but what are the actual odds of one of these perps actually growing up into a responsible, productive adult? They’ll get turned loose on society, and shit like this will just keep on happening.

    I hope that girl can heal and thrive, and grow up to be a judge. :)

  18. 18
    lol says:

    Has Fox given us the race of the victim and the accused yet? I need to know if this was just boys being boys or yet another example of the Negro-American menace.

  19. 19
    BerkeleyMom says:

    From what I have read in the local papers (this happened at Richmond High just north of here a few miles) the security at the school was negligent with no one patrolling outside the school after 9pm. The gang rape took place behind the school in a dark area that was poorly lit. I would not be surprised if the girl was drugged as it has been reported that she drank some alcohol and passed out quickly.

    I hope all these kids are arrested and that the school district is held responsible as well. What a tragedy.

  20. 20
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Re: What the hell is wrong with people?

    Richmond California has a Mayor from the Green Party.

    Richmond is the home of the Black Panthers.

    The Mayor of Richmond is a member of the Mayors against illegal guns collation.

    Their school system has banned junk food.

    28% of Richmond high school students pass the California standardized exit exam.

    Hope this helps.

  21. 21

    This is Richmond, California, folks. This has been ground zero for the drug wars for years.

    Is this horrible? Yes. But it didn’t happen in isolation from the rest of the world around them being destroyed. Every day kids are being shot and killed on the streets of Richmond. No one calls the cops about gang murders either. No one sees anything.

    Ahmed Wali Karzai + heroin + CIA + 3 Strikes + Drug War + Schwarzeneggar + California budge collapse + US economic collapse = Richmond. This is America at work.

  22. 22
    Lee says:

    They are not human they are teenagers.

    I say this as a parent of 2 kids.

  23. 23
    Zach says:

    Here’s hoping the sequel to Last House on the Left is based on a true story.

  24. 24
    Jinchi says:

    further investigations typically reveal that people did try to intervene or did call the police

    To be clear, somebody did call the police. They had heard about the gang rape at a nearby party. That’s how the girl was found.

  25. 25
    kay says:

    @Maxwel:

    It’s not a crime not to offer help. In California, according to the article, it can be, but only regarding “a child”, which means “14”. She’s 15. I know it’s odd, but it’s true. No duty to be a good samaritan.
    They’ll turn each other in, if that’s any comfort. They probably already have. It just takes one and they all point fingers, in that age group.

  26. 26
    DBrown says:

    Tragic; yet, so is a drunk driver that slaughters a whole family but DUI’s still get a bye in too many States but that is just death and terrible physical injury so most of us are not as upset and look for more interesting horrors to get offended about. Run of the mill horrors like when our bombs miss a target and kill a number of families in (name a number of countries we are bombing … shit, so much for the NPP) – again, being torn apart by a bomb or bullet is not something that offends like an even worse crime of rape of an American teen… yes, I’m offended but so many horrors are allowed in the name of being tough in the world that I loose sight (I believe we all do) now brutal all these things really are and so we focus on a local horror that is more near to us.

  27. 27
    Zifnab says:

    @LD50:

    In answer to your question, there was a ton of security, including at least two Richmond PD officers and about 8 campus security officers, but they were all inside the dance, where they thought any trouble would be.

    Well, right. They need to straighten that out. This is, at least partly, a serious police mismanagement issue. I don’t understand how you can have that much police force on site and not have anyone doing a periodic patrol of the campus.

  28. 28
    Cat Lady says:

    Kitty Genovese.

    That is all.

  29. 29
    ellaesther says:

    I’m with SGEW: I hate to say it — I really do hate to say it — but I suspect that this kind of behavior is very human indeed. We also have our better angels, and that piece of us is also “human,” but oh my God. So is this shit.

    @funluvn: I would submit, however, that people have been barbarians for as long as there have been people and there is nothing new in it. Indeed, if we were to look at history and how the gang rape of women has traditionally been approached by society, I would submit that we are in fact living in the best age that humanity has yet to offer. We are outraged, many others are (or soon will be) outraged — but once upon a time, and not very long ago, this event would have just been men having their fun, and nothing much to remark on.

  30. 30
    DougJ says:

    What ellaesther said.

  31. 31
    lol says:

    Aha. So they’re probably black. Or colored differently somehow. Clearly Barack Obama’s fault.

    Have we determined if the slut was asking for it yet?

  32. 32
    LD50 says:

    Unfortunately, my guess is that the perpetrators are probably minors and will get next to nothing.

    Some were, some weren’t. The first guy arrested was 19 and is being held on $800,000 bail. One or two of the perps were in their 20s.

  33. 33
    R. Porrofatto says:

    Saw one of those “real-crime” shows recently about an affluent college kid who hired a fellow student to murder his entire family for the inheritance and shoot him in the shoulder to deflect suspicion. This was bad enough, but the part that got me was that twice before he got two other friends to agree to attempt the same crime, and each was only stopped each by extraneous circumstances (a window that was supposed to be open was locked, etc.). All nice, upper middle class kids, and he got three of them to agree to murder his family –plus girlfriends and others knew about it and no one reported a thing until the deed was done.

    With stuff like this and the present incident, I’m beginning to feel really, really old.

  34. 34
    LD50 says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Richmond California has a Mayor from the Green Party.

    Yes, gang rape has always been a platform of the Green Party.

    Richmond is the home of the Black Panthers.

    a) no it wasn’t and (b) the BP’s no longer exist. Read some newspapers less than 40 years old.

    The Mayor of Richmond is a member of the Mayors against illegal guns collation.

    You’re right, more guns would have prevented this.

    Their school system has banned junk food.

    That explains the whole thing right there. Wholesome food = gang rape.

    Hope this helps.

    Blow me.

  35. 35
    jibeaux says:

    I have been reading Nicholas Kristof’s book “Half the Sky” and pretty quickly you get the impression that women are being raped, indiscriminately, systematically, and politically in many, many, many places — constantly. And generally these cultures stigmatize the victims so that they do not tell, they don’t get married, they are shunned, they often commit suicide. It’s seen as the crime that can keep on giving because there aren’t any inconvenient bodies to dispose of or cops to bribe, but it can be just as effective at destroying a society or oppressing people as killing them. And there are cultures in which men just routinely rape women they want to marry but they can’t afford the bride price, because the price goes way down once she’s ruined.
    It is hard to read fifty pages of that book without feeling like for half the world a return to medieval values might be an improvement. And I had thought, well, at least we’re different on that front. Sigh.

  36. 36
    Middlewest says:

    I hope John McCain can help her find a good arbitrator.

  37. 37
    Jack The Second says:

    Horrific.

    I don’t know if the follow-up studies of the Kitty Genovese murder (“Thirty-Eight Who Saw Murder Didn’t Call the Police”) were as widely published as the initial story, so here goes:

    1. In a crowd, everyone is responsible, so no one is. Studies done after the murder by sociologists and psychologists trying to understand how New Yorkers could be so jaded and uncaring as to watch a woman get murdered discovered that the larger the crowd is, the less likely someone is to help you. If you collapse on the street and one person sees you, he will almost certainly rush to help you, even if he is a jaded New Yorker. When there is a crowd of 10 people, each person is less likely to help you, because he figures someone else will. In the end, no one does.

    2. The presence of an inactive crowd makes inactivity seem correct. You pass a man lying in the street. Is he a drunk sleeping it off, or is he in need of medical attention? If there is a crowd of people ignoring the man lying in the street, you generally go with the crowd’s judgement. Each person says to himself, “There are a hundred other people here doing nothing, so what are the chances they’re wrong and I’m right to want to act?”

    3. If you are in trouble, appeal to individuals, not the crowd. In light of #1 and #2, if you are ever in trouble — in an accident, being attacked, on fire, whatever — don’t ask a crowd of people, “Somebody help me”, because crowds are terrible at picking a ‘somebody’ to help you. Single out an individual — anyone will do — look directly at them and talk directly to them, and make your plea to them and them alone. If you have the presence of mind to give an explicit order like “call the police” or “call an ambulance” or “find something to move this debris”, all the better, but the important thing is to look them in the eye and give them that “Help me Obi Wan, you’re my only hope” moment, to break them out of the crowd. As individuals, people LOVE helping other people. And once once person starts to help, the entire crowd will.

    4. Become a ringleader. #3 is effective, but it’s not fair to rely on victims to have the presence of mind to break crowd psychology while in distress. Get in the habit of breaking yourself out of a crowd. Here’s a hint: you’re always part of a crowd. If you’re driving down the highway in a line of cars and rubberneck past a car that’s off the road, you’re part of a crowd. Be a bit of a boy-scout. When you see a car off by the side of the road, pull over and see if they need assistance. If you see a situation that looks like it needs the police, call them. Crowd psychology is a powerful thing; if you want to be certain that when the time comes, you’re the person in the crowd who stands up and says, “This ain’t right”, and drives the crowd to righteous action, and not just a person who stands by in a crowd and watches a girl get raped or murdered, you have to work at it.

  38. 38
    jon says:

    One can blame porn, the internet, a lack of security, the possibility that this will find its way on to some internet sites, the non-existent parents, society, teenage boys, teenage girls, alcohol, and Jesus for not being visible enough and relying on stupid and illogical things like faith in water becoming wine. But the culpable ones are the ones that did it.

    I can imagine an observer saying “What harm can another three rapes do?” in regard to this kind of an event. That same “logic” may or may not lead to that observer joining in.

    I can also imagine a culture where “snitches get stitches” is taught from the time a boy or girl can first go outside. I’m glad someone told, and I hope that person is safe.

    And of course, I hope the victim gets the counseling needed to get over this.

  39. 39
    adolphus says:

    To be clear, somebody did call the police. They had heard about the gang rape at a nearby party. That’s how the girl was found.

    True, but I think the outrage here and elsewhere is that no one called the police or otherwise tried intervene WHILE THE EVENT WAS IN PROGRESS in order to stop it or catch the perpetrators in the act. The police were called in this case, according to initial reports, only well after the fact based upon what someone overheard someone else was talking about. Commendable perhaps, but hardly redeems people’s faith in each other when up to 20 others actually saw the event and reportedly did nothing to stop it.

    If it turns out initial reports are accurate and no one tried to stop this or call authorities while the crime was in progress, the fact that someone reported party gossip hours after the fact will hardly temper my disgust.

  40. 40
    Stefan says:

    Those who watched should be arrested as accessories.

    Can’t. It’s not a crime to watch a crime.

  41. 41
    Tom Betz says:

    Gang rape seems to be a big part of community culture in Richmond, CA. That’s the same town where a lesbian suffered a gang rape in January.

    http://bit.ly/RApW

  42. 42
    ellaesther says:

    @Tom Betz: It’s my impression that rape — gang or otherwise — is a big part of culture. Full stop.

  43. 43
    SGEW says:

    @jibeaux:

    . . . for half the world a return to medieval values might be an improvement. And I had thought, well, at least we’re different on that front.

    But “we” are. The perpetrators of this incident will almost certainly face criminal sanction. The bystanders who did nothing may not, but they are now the subject of public criticism. And somebody did, after all, call the police. “We,” as a society, are (almost) unanimous in public disapproval of rape. This is a new thing, historically speaking. An unmistakable net improvement, on the timescale of human civilization. We’re still quite a ways away from any sort of ultimately acceptable situation in regards to rape, the patriarchy, and misogyny in general (not to mention violence), but we should still acknowledge that we’re in a virtually unique position in our modern times; never before have so many humans coexisted with so little abuse of each other.

    [I suppose my motto for the day is “count your blessings.”]

  44. 44
    Sasha says:

    Seriously. What the hell is wrong with people that up to twenty people stood around or participated in the gang rape of a woman for TWO AND A HALF HOURS and they never once thought “Hey, this is wrong” or “Hey, this is a person” or “Hey, I should call the police.”

    Some things in life need to be mysterious. Sometimes you need to just keep walking. It’s hard for me to look at a great nation documenting this crime and reporting it to the world and thinking, “Oh, much good will come of that.”

  45. 45
    smiley says:

    @Cat Lady: The bystander effect/diffusion of responsibility thing is interesting. There was a study a while back that showed that the more people present, the slower or less likely someone will report something like the smell of smoke. Still, you’d think a girl being raped would be extreme enough for someone to try to stop it.

  46. 46
    Tom Betz says:

    @Cat Lady

    The Kitty Genovese story as we know it is a myth. In fact, at least one of the two people known to have witnessed or heard her assault did call the police.

    WNYC’s excellent On The Media did a report on hoe the myth was created last year. http://bit.ly/22z0t

  47. 47
    Sasha says:

    @Stefan:

    Those who watched should be arrested as accessories.

    Can’t. It’s not a crime to watch a crime.

    If they actually encouraged and helped continue the attack by preventing or forcibly dissuading “snitching”, I think a case can be made.

  48. 48
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Wikipedia says this LD50:

    “Richmond has formerly been home to black culture and activist movements, most notably the Black Panther Party.”

    Huey Newton moved to nearby Oakland, and died there, being shot once in the chest, and then three times in the face by ‘Double R’. So you can make the argument that Oakland, and not Richmond, is the true home of the Black Panthers.

    I stand corrected and will cross-check Wikipedia in the future before posting in the interest of accuracy.

    The question is, what was the race of the girl?

  49. 49
    Tsulagi says:

    I hope that girl can heal and thrive, and grow up to be a judge. :)

    I’d go with that.

    And be the judge 30 years later after one of her attackers skips the country living a life of eating brie in French chateaus. In her courtroom, wonder if she’d agree with him and his supporters that he’d suffered greatly from that self exile and was now a victim.

  50. 50
    Fulcanelli says:

    That is some horrific, twisted shit. Sadly, there’s probably cell phone video being passed around of this.

    I’m not in favor of the death penalty for a number of reasons but if that was my daughter, and I don’t care what she did, there would be some Chuck Bronson/Death Wish moves going on in Richmond, CA, and soon . Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

    Poverty and Despair that leads to inhuman behavior: It’s what’s for dinner In Real America(TM).

  51. 51
    Persia says:

    @adolphus: Having said that, if I was a teenage girl and saw another girl getting raped, and people standing around watching, I’d be focused on getting somewhere else, and safe, and then making some kind of report. It’d be hard to not think of yourself as the next victim.

  52. 52
    Parole Officer Burke says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    No, B.O.B., that is not the fucking question. What the hell is wrong with you?

    [Insert standard formal request to permanently ban Brick Oven Bill, for repeated overt racism.]

  53. 53
    LD50 says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    The question is, what was the race of the girl?

    Why is that ‘the question’?

  54. 54
    Parole Officer Burke says:

    Oop. Handle issues. Heh.

  55. 55
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    This is the kind of incident that can start community problems. It is not racist to note this. This is a potentially significant story on a national level.

  56. 56
    Fulcanelli says:

    @Brick Oven Bill: Bill, why is the race of the girl, or even the perpetrators relevant to you?

  57. 57
    2th&nayle says:

    I’m probably going to regret saying this, but fuck it! This is just another in a long line of despicable episodes that make public floggings seem like a really good idea!

  58. 58
    gopher2b says:

    @adolphus:

    I concur. I know everyone’s first reaction to this kind of news is “string up the men by the testes” but let’s wait and see what happens before we form the mob.

  59. 59
    Jinchi says:

    True, but I think the outrage here and elsewhere is that no one called the police or otherwise tried intervene WHILE THE EVENT WAS IN PROGRESS in order to stop it or catch the perpetrators in the act.

    The call was made will the event was in progress and police caught one of the perpetrators fleeing the scene when they arrived.

    Without question, it’s horrible that it took over 2 hours before the first call for help. But for that person, though, the girl would likely have been found the next day, long after the culprits had fled the scene.

  60. 60
    LD50 says:

    @Fulcanelli: I would assume he wants to make vague some point that darkies are bad.

    This is the kind of incident that can start community problems.

    Richmond has had ‘community problems’ for decades. It had them before, and will continue to have them. The city had a epidemic of kids getting killed in drive-by shootings a few years back, with many of the kids being utterly innocent bystanders. Richmond is a city where a huge number of the residents suffer from PTSD and attend funerals regularly. This incident is more appalling than usual, but I can predict it will not change things in any big way, except to prompt the Richmond PD to post more officers at high school functions.

  61. 61
    Stefan says:

    If they actually encouraged and helped continue the attack by preventing or forcibly dissuading “snitching”, I think a case can be made.

    Sure, a motivated ADA could try to make such a case. But as a general principle of criminal law, if you see a crime being committed, even if it’s being committed right in front of you, you have no legal responsibility to intervene or even to report it (barring certain cases such as a doctor who treats an abuse victim and is obligated by law to report it, for example).

  62. 62
    adolphus says:

    @adolphus: Having said that, if I was a teenage girl and saw another girl getting raped, and people standing around watching, I’d be focused on getting somewhere else, and safe, and then making some kind of report. It’d be hard to not think of yourself as the next victim.

    Absolutely! And because there may be stories like this, we should be a little reticent to jump to conclusions this early in the process about who did or did not attempt to stop this and whether we should yet again wax philosophic about how Americans are insensitive to the suffering of our fellow citizens.

    I have no end of disgust and condemnation for the perpetrators. But I am going to wait until all the information is in before I get outraged that no one did anything. I’ve had my own experiences with witnessing violence and calling the police and then had people ask “why didn’t anyone do anything?” Well, sometimes people do take steps but it just doesn’t do any good for hundreds of different reasons some curable and some not.

  63. 63
    par4 says:

    This country needs a cleaning out that would make Stalin look like a piker.

  64. 64
    NoWay says:

    I respect this Blog and enjoy following it immensely. But to allow BOB to continue with his remarks is completely offensive. Most blog hosts would have removed him at this point. Discourse is one thing, but his remarks are despicable.

  65. 65
    Fulcanelli says:

    @Fulcanelli:

    Poverty and Despair that leads to inhuman behavior: It’s what’s for dinner In Real America™.

    Interesting how massive wealth can lead to the same the same kind of behavior. It’s about extremes of power and control. Too much at your disposal or none at all over your life can lead to the same place.

  66. 66
    adolphus says:

    The call was made will the event was in progress and police caught one of the perpetrators fleeing the scene when they arrived.

    Without question, it’s horrible that it took over 2 hours before the first call for help. But for that person, though, the girl would likely have been found the next day, long after the culprits had fled the scene.

    I had not read that the call was made in progress. The story John linked to said “The victim was found unconscious under a bench shortly before midnight Saturday, after police received a call from someone in the area who had overheard people at the assault scene “reminiscing about the incident,” Richmond Police Lt. Mark Gagan said.” Which lead me to believe it was after the event not during.

    But if you are right, then doesn’t that support my point that we should be careful not to jump to conclusions concerning the alleged apathy of bystanders until all the information is available?

  67. 67
    adolphus says:

    block quote fail.

    This should also have been inside the box:

    Without question, it’s horrible that it took over 2 hours before the first call for help. But for that person, though, the girl would likely have been found the next day, long after the culprits had fled the scene.

  68. 68
    Minionero says:

    What if…. what if….

    the observers thought the “gang rape” was consensual?

    Are they still sociopaths and barbarians?

    Or just horny teenagers?

    Just asking.

  69. 69
    LD50 says:

    @Fulcanelli:

    Interesting how massive wealth can lead to the same the same kind of behavior. It’s about extremes of power and control. Too much at your disposal or none at all over your life can lead to the same place.

    My wife worked as a teacher in Richmond for several years. She’s observed that the most aggressive drivers are either the very poor or the very rich. The very rich because of their massive sense of entitlement. The very poor because of their sense of having absolutely nothing to lose.

  70. 70
    Fulcanelli says:

    Mr. Cole, when can we haz edit and preview back? Srsly, what was the fundraiser for? Do we need to raise more money?

  71. 71
    Mr Furious says:

    Srsly, what was the fundraiser for?

    Embroidered bedding for Lily and insulin for Tunch.

  72. 72
    geg6 says:

    @Minionero:

    I sure hope you’re snarking here. If not, you are a complete asshole.

    As for this

    Are they still sociopaths and barbarians?

    Yes. SATSQ.

  73. 73
    Betsy says:

    @Minionero:

    Right. Because an assault that leaves a girl unconscious and in critical condition is really hard to distinguish from consensual sex.

    (I really, really hope you’re satirizing the people who make this kind of argument in earnest.)

  74. 74
    jenniebee says:

    @Minionero: I have to say, that’s the single most retarded question on this thread up to and including BOB’s question about the victim’s race. By the time the girl was found, she had to be checked into the hospital’s critical care ward. She’d have had to be a candidate for Masochist of the Millennium for that to have been consensual.

  75. 75
    Zifnab says:

    @adolphus:

    But if you are right, then doesn’t that support my point that we should be careful not to jump to conclusions concerning the alleged apathy of bystanders until all the information is available?

    Well, that and if this was a “gang rape” in the sense that the bystanders were gang members, this isn’t all that surprising in the least. Horrific, but not nearly as shocking as if 20 random people just kinda wandered by to watch.

  76. 76
    Blue Raven says:

    BoBill, you are cordially invited by this rape survivor and former target of peer-group harassment and violence to kiss my fat white ass. The question, you pustulent boil, is will the victim be helped and supported? Will her attackers face real justice? And will those who failed to stop it do better after waking up to their humanity?

    Trolling a rape thread with untruths, half-truths and statistics is lower than claiming she deserved it for having her skirt too short.

    Permaban on the cold-hearted ass, please.

  77. 77
    Brachiator says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    The question is, what was the race of the girl?

    Human. Totally unlike you.

  78. 78
    Minionero says:

    @geg6

    So anyone who voluntarily watches what they believe to be consensual group sex is a sociopath and barbarian?

    If so, judging by the popularity of internet porn, we are a nation of sociopaths and barbarians.

  79. 79
    Erik Vanderhoff says:

    The question is, what was the race of the girl?

    Why, B.O.B., why? Why the fuck would that question be at all pertinent? You total shit.

  80. 80
    Minionero says:

    Right. Because an assault that leaves a girl unconscious and in critical condition is really hard to distinguish from consensual sex.

    My bad. I didn’t actually read the article. (Can you blame me?)

  81. 81
    Zifnab says:

    @Erik Vanderhoff: I’ll take Duke Lacross Rape for $100, Alex. We should have Paul L by any minute.

  82. 82
    Betsy says:

    @Minionero:

    Yeah, actually. To make a comment like that without reading the article is irresponsible.

  83. 83
    Erik Vanderhoff says:

    So anyone who voluntarily watches what they believe to be consensual group sex is a sociopath and barbarian?

    Since the girl in question is reported to have been unconscious and ergo unable to consent, in this case, yeah, dude, they’re barbarians. Sociopaths, probably not.

  84. 84
    LD50 says:

    @Zifnab: I’m just glad it’s too early in the day for Makewee to wander in and snarl about how somehow us libs are horribly hypocritical for thinking this gang rape is a bad thing.

  85. 85
    Minionero says:

    @Betsy

    Read my post carefully–my point was hypothetical, and it still stands.

    Just because the premise (“the observers thought it was consensual”) seems to be clearly false, doesn’t mean that it’s irresponsible to ask the question.

    Irrelevant, sure, but not irresponsible.

  86. 86
    Erik Vanderhoff says:

    @Zifnab: My bad for not recalling the case that proves that all rape allegations are false.

    Richmond has been the DMZ of the Bay Area for a while now. It used to be East Palo Alto. I strongly suspect that San Jose’s East Side would be competing with Richmond were it not for the SJPD’s ironclad relationship with the Mercury News preventing most reporting.

  87. 87
    Fulcanelli says:

    @LD50: I agree, with one caveat… I would argue that it’s not just a “sense” of entitlement, which can be genuine or phony depending on the individual (famous or wealthy vs. narcissistic).

    It’s the very real, tangible power rush that must exist within you when you can literally, actually buy and sell anybody or anything you set your eyes on. From a beautiful woman to a skyscraper to your own private island.

  88. 88
    Tax Analyst says:

    Minionero said:

    “What if…. what if….

    the observers thought the “gang rape” was consensual?

    Oh, I get it…the “I thought her desparate howls were were an indication of sheer delight” excuse.

    Even stupid horny teenagers usually find a slightly better place to screw than in a back alley and I don’t think it’s likely that very many girls or women, no matter how horny they might be, would consent to be gang-banged on the pavement or up against a wall in a back alley. Also, from what I remember “horny teenagers” are generally “in and done” rather quickly, at which point they zip up their pants and start thinking about whatever teenagers think about after their magic twanger has been unloaded. Hanging around and either cheering or waiting for another turn at a helpless girl is not an indication of “horniness”, it is more an indication of someone getting some kind of sick kick out of the debasement and abuse of someone who is in a position of virtually complete helplessness.

    I hope anyone out there who is saying, “Aw, I’ll bet she wanted it” someday gets the opportunity to experience an hour or two of dealing with how it feels to be on the receiving end of what they think this 15-year-old girl “wanted”.

  89. 89
    jenniebee says:

    @Minionero: I suppose if you think it’s not irresponsible to ask if a 2.5 hour gang rape could have been perceived as consensual, you might also believe that it’s also reasonable and blameless to have that perception in the first place.

    This is that moment when you may want to step back and do some soul-searching before making any more comments.

  90. 90
    d-pressd says:

    Read my post carefully—my point was hypothetical, and it still stands.

    Just because the premise (“the observers thought it was consensual”) seems to be clearly false, doesn’t mean that it’s irresponsible to ask the question.

    Irrelevant, sure, but not irresponsible.

    The fact that you were wrong is central to your point. Is Minionero a goat-lover? It would be irresponsible not to speculate! Think of all the poor goats we could save from getting the Herp.

  91. 91
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    I know everybody here is enlightened to the point that you are colorblind and just judge a person by the Content of their Character, that is, unless the person is a black President telling lies and people want to give him a pass.

    But not everyone in the world is as enlightened as the Balloon Juice audience, and there happens to be a race-based gang war going on in Los Angeles, and I am sure other places as well. One of the rape perpetrators names was Hispanic.

    If the girl was black, and left unconscious, the less than enlightened me thinks that you could see Richmond light up, assuming the rape-gang was of the same race, which it likely was. Gang rape is an act of power projection.

    If the girl was white, this could be a big incident as well. I cannot see a group of Hispanic men doing this to a Hispanic woman for two hours, without anyone going for help. There are typically codes on honor in that community.

  92. 92
    Tax Analyst says:

    Minionero said:

    “@Betsy

    Read my post carefully—my point was hypothetical, and it still stands.

    Just because the premise (“the observers thought it was consensual”) seems to be clearly false, doesn’t mean that it’s irresponsible to ask the question.

    Irrelevant, sure, but not irresponsible.”

    Wrong. It’s neither irrelevant nor irresponsible. IT’S COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ASININE.

  93. 93
    Mister Colorful Analogy says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    BoB, please do take this the wrong way: Go fuck yourself, and then kindly DIAF. Really, you are a racist piece of shit.

    Can someone please ban this asshole permanantly? kthxbai.

  94. 94
    Zifnab says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    unless the person is a black President telling lies and people want to give him a pass.

    OIC! This isn’t about a 15-year-old girl being gang raped, this is about BoB 12″ hate-on for the current President.

  95. 95
    Erik Vanderhoff says:

    B.O.B., Richmond is already “lit-up” by gang turf wars. The threats of race riots exist solely in your own puerile fantasies.

  96. 96
    slag says:

    @SGEW:

    They’re bloody ignorant apes, like most men throughout history. Blame the primates.

    I can’t necessarily agree with you there. Empathy (that dreaded word!) appears to be prominent throughout the animal kingdom. Evolution requires it because it enables survival of species. There’s no reason we should look at those who committed this atrocity and think that their animal natures compelled it anymore than we should look at the girl who called the cops and think that her animal nature compelled it. Being kind to each other is a necessary component to our survival.

    The reality is that we have an absolute mess of a culture that creates an environment wherein the President of our country is called upon to defend his hobby of playing basketball but not to remark upon this horrific, far more nationally significant, incident. Countries across the world continue to treat women as second-class citizens and achieving true equality is always a secondary consideration to whatever shiny object is put in front of us on a daily basis. Like apes and other primates, we are social beings who rely on each other for guidance as to what behaviors are beneficial and what behaviors are detrimental. And we, like apes and other primates, both succeed and fail in that respect.

  97. 97
    Minionero says:

    @jenniebee @Tax Analyst

    Is this how you reacted after the Duke Lacrosse case? Barking and shouting down any questions that might suggest a conclusion other than the one you’ve convinced yourself is true?

  98. 98
    Minionero says:

    @Tax Analyst

    I hope anyone out there who is saying, “Aw, I’ll bet she wanted it”

    A big middle finger to you for even suggesting that what I said could be interpreted this way.

  99. 99
    Tractarian says:

    @Minionero

    At least B.O.B. is funny. You, sir, are simply a wanker.

  100. 100
    LD50 says:

    @Zifnab: The other shoe has dropped. We can now rest easily, now that one of our wingnuts has managed to use this issue to take a swipe at Obama.

  101. 101
    kathy says:

    i think these comments should disqualify “brick oven bill” from participating on this website, despite the thrill one gets from bashing him. absolutely disgusting comments. completely separate from your political beliefs, you are an awful person.

  102. 102
    LD50 says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    If the girl was black, and left unconscious, the less than enlightened me thinks that you could see Richmond light up, assuming the rape-gang was of the same race, which it likely was. Gang rape is an act of power projection. If the girl was white, this could be a big incident as well. I cannot see a group of Hispanic men doing this to a Hispanic woman for two hours, without anyone going for help. There are typically codes on honor in that community.

    BOB, I know it’s obvious to everyone, but I would point out that you know nothing whatsoever about Richmond, or any cities anything like Richmond. Not that your fantasy babblings about race aren’t vaguely amusing, but don’t try and act like they mean anything.

  103. 103
    Ash says:

    @smiley: The bystander effect/diffusion of responsibility thing is interesting. There was a study a while back that showed that the more people present, the slower or less likely someone will report something like the smell of smoke. Still, you’d think a girl being raped would be extreme enough for someone to try to stop it.

    There are reports that all the bystanders were men. It does not surprise me that no one called the police.

    That school has a 70% truancy rate, what the fuck are they doing spending their money on school dances in the first place?

  104. 104
    Rainy says:

    I believe the girl was Latino just like the majority of the boys who raped her. One of the kids arrested is named Manuel Ortega. I guess he was the one to give her the alcohol and he corralled his friends in or something. That’s what I read. The racial makeup the city is irrelevant seeing as these kinds of rapes happen all over America and in involve kids of every socioeconomic background.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....L&o=0

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.co.....eople.html

  105. 105
    kay says:

    “The third suspect, a 21-year-old man, was arrested on suspicion of sexual assault and rape. The other suspects in custody are a 15-year-old boy and a 19-year-old man, Manuel Ortega. The name of the 21-year-old man was not immediately released. The name of the 15-year-old was not released because he is a minor. ”

    It’s looking less and less like “teenagers”. There are purportedly 7 in total, two of whom are adults. 21 is no kid.

  106. 106
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Tom Betz:

    After seeing a comment upthread, I also found this paper on some of the myths about the reaction to Genovese’s murder.

    http://www.psych.lancs.ac.uk/p.....095238.pdf

  107. 107
    LD50 says:

    That school has a 70% truancy rate, what the fuck are they doing spending their money on school dances in the first place?

    Because all the other schools in the district have homecoming dances, and the students at this school want one. Simple.

  108. 108
    slag says:

    @slag: And we create people like BOB who can’t see past their own prejudices long enough to sustain even the slightest connection to the larger issues in front of them.

  109. 109
    Tax Analyst says:

    BOB slobbered:
    “If the girl was white, this could be a big incident as well. I cannot see a group of Hispanic men doing this to a Hispanic woman for two hours, without anyone going for help. There are typically codes on honor in that community.”

    BOB, as an expert in these types on things, can you tell me if this “Community Code of Honor” is posted somewhere within the community, and if so, what language is it posted in? Do you know if the postings are bilingual?

    It’s certainly useful to know that Hispanic men would rape a black or white woman for 2+ hours but not a Hispanic one. But what if the woman is a light-skinned Hispanic? Do they have to pull out and ask her about her parentage and ancestral history? What if they’re just amoral sociopathic punks who just want to put a power trip on somebody who is unable to get out of their way?

  110. 110
    noncarborundum says:

    I wouldn’t mind putting everyone of these people in jail for life.

    Absolutely not. They should all be let go, but not until Richard Cohen gets a crack at them.

  111. 111
    LD50 says:

    @Rainy: Incidentally, a snippet from the first article:

    Richmond High has surveillance cameras, but none is working, school officials said.

    On top of everything else, the school district is broke. When my wife taught in Richmond, it was nothing unusual for a broken window to take 3 years to get fixed.

  112. 112
    kathy says:

    i think engaging this man is totally counterproductive and a danger to our collective brain cell count. he is terrible. every thread i see hijacked by his idiocy and nothing ever changes. he is a disgusting person and should be banned.

  113. 113
    Betsy says:

    @Minionero:
    Nice try, dude, but your question did not, in fact, suggest that any conclusions drawn here were wrong, because your question was based on a totally false premise. You were so anxious to say “but but but maybe the bitch was lying!!” that you couldn’t be bothered to do the most basic due diligence. It’s pretty amazing to see you get all high and mighty when you’re the one who was arguing from ignorance.

  114. 114
    LD50 says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    If the girl was white, this could be a big incident as well.

    This may make BOB lose interest, but the odds of this are close to nil. There are extremely few white boys in Richmond High, and perhaps literally no white girls.

  115. 115
    lol says:

    Okay, well, they appear to be latinos. That’s a *kind* of colored folk, right?

    I still think we can blame this on Barack Obama because he wants to give illegal immigrants health care.

  116. 116
    geg6 says:

    @Minionero:

    WTF are you talking about? That is exactly what you said. Not the same words, but the idea that any 15 yr. old female consents to sex in the open air with multiple partners as more than a dozen look on is being a complete asshole. No one does that. The only way it happens is if the young woman is being forced, is mentally or emotionally disabled enough as to be functionally unable to consent, or if she has been rendered incoherent and functionally unable to consent due to drugs and/or alcohol.

    Unfuckingbelievable.

  117. 117
    Blue Raven says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Go bugger a badger in rut.

  118. 118
    Tractarian says:

    @geg6 & Betsy:

    but the idea that any 15 yr. old female consents to sex in the open air with multiple partners as more than a dozen look on is being a complete asshole. No one does that.

    Let me say it real slow: I did NOT suggest that the victim consented. I suggested that the observers thought she consented. (Observers who, in all likelihood, are dumb high school kids whose only knowledge of sex comes from internet porn.)

    I can’t help you if you are too concerned with out-outraging each other to understand.

  119. 119
    Tractarian says:

    Whoops blew my cover there! Tractarian=Minionero

  120. 120
    Tim Fuller says:

    Gang rape is so common these days that some of our largest corporations have taken to obtaining waivers for same from job applicants.

    At this point in the game, I’m not even sure it’s a crime, at least not if it happens to start around the water cooler and ends in a locked shipping container.

    republicansforrape.com

    Enjoy.

  121. 121
    kay says:

    @Tractarian:

    That isn’t true in my experience, and I work with delinquents.

    People “know” a lot, and violence has a much different energy than anything else. If anything, younger people are closer to intuitive sense than older people. They rely on it more. It’s part of why they seem impulsive.
    Little kids have a real good sense of physical threat from others, and they can absolutely tell the difference between violence between their parents and anything consensual. I think it’s because they’re small and vulnerable. They pay attention because they have to. Teenagers are closer to that state.

  122. 122
    Tractarian says:

    @kay:

    Point taken. Thank you for the reasoned and insult-free response.

  123. 123
    Tim Fuller says:

    There are typically codes on honor in that community.”

    Indeed. My understanding of community standards in most of urban America include the possibility that she may be a victim of the drug war. It would be irresponsible not to speculate that she may have been a drug informant (perhaps on a D.A.R.E)

    Cooperating with the police in such neighborhoods is frowned upon with such fervor that it would explain both the enthusiasm viciousness of the assault as well as the belated reporting thereof.

    Enjoy.

  124. 124
    Tax Analyst says:

    Minionero said:
    “@jenniebee @Tax Analyst

    Is this how you reacted after the Duke Lacrosse case? Barking and shouting down any questions that might suggest a conclusion other than the one you’ve convinced yourself is true?”

    Man, I don’t have any idea what you are whining about. The thread was about a horrific incident where by all known accounts a 15-year-old girl was drawn or led to a darkened alley and brutally gang-raped for several hours. My “concluson”, based on what was known, is that this was a sick, brutal and inhumane act (actually, a series of acts…it appears she was either led to the scene or deceived into entering it) perpetrated on a girl who was almost certainly helpless and probably close to completely terrified out of her mind. I’m pretty sure that “conclusion” was more or less what most of the other readers and commenters were “concluding”, albeit perhaps a shorter, less drawn-out version. As to the alleged “indifference” of the witnesses, my initial response was to be thoroughly appalled, but I did not venture any thoughts on this because the exact circumstance of their exposure and relationship to the abuse was not altogether clear from the initial reports. At this point a clever and inquiring mind, in the form of a new commenter appeared with and decided it was a good time to fling a large and fully packed hypothetical shit-bomb into the mix – just to see what would happen, I guess. Oddly enough this seems to have precipated some very pointed and angry responses…well. geez…who could have known that might happen, right?

    And by golly and by jingo, that’s EXACTLY what our new friend said, punctuating his remark with a posture that assumed a slightly more-than-expected attitude of righteous and pious indignation.

    And then he verbally flipped a couple of us off.

    And I don’t care. I didn’t throw the shit-bomb and it’s not my job to clean it up. If he’s upset or aggrieved that several folks told him that it stinks and that he’s a putz for throwing it he ought to just take that for what its worth. From that point he can either stand in the middle of the shit-pile he created and defend it, try to clean it up or just quietly shuffle on down the road. Me, I’d go with #3 because there’s no way he’s gonna convince anybody else here that it doesn’t stink.

    And now I’m done with this pissant. Have a Nice Day, thank you, good-bye.

  125. 125
    kay says:

    @Tractarian:

    Oh, you’re welcome. She left the dance early to meet her father, who was looking for her while this occurred, apparently. I bet she knew at least one of them, and that trust acted to over-ride any warning bells she might have been hearing.
    Poor baby. I hope she recovers, and can trust enough to function.

  126. 126
    d-pressd says:

    Let me say it real slow: I did NOT suggest that the victim consented. I suggested that the observers thought she consented. (Observers who, in all likelihood, are dumb high school kids whose only knowledge of sex comes from internet porn.)

    I can’t help you if you are too concerned with out-outraging each other to understand.

    The other day I saw I guy covered in blood in the middle of the street with a broken back and “Honda” stamped backward on his chest. I thought there was an infinitesimally small yet non-zero chance that he had consented to some kind of vehicular-injury sex fetish Internet thingy. Which happens all the time.

    Tip: if you find yourself typing “Let me say this real slow … ” it is usually an indication that you have publicly made an ass of yourself on the Internet and are attempting to walk it back despite every thing you already said, which every one can still read.

    The hole will only get bigger.

  127. 127
    PaulW says:

    Kitty Genovese.

    We’ve been sick for some time.

  128. 128
    Minionero says:

    @Tax Analyst: TLDR

  129. 129
    Jim C says:

    Kind of like how you can stand by with all the evidence of the Bush family treason, and still call the first George Bush an honorable guy???

    People are fucking idiots.

  130. 130
    Shell says:

    o many people saying victim-blaming things like “well, she was drinking, what did she expect?

    That shit makes me crazy. “Well, she was flirting, out after dark, her skirt was too short, blah-blah-blah, what did she expect?

    She didn’t expect to be attacked for 2 and 1/2 hours , asshole!

    If one of these idiots was violently mugged, would they say ‘Oh, well, I was carrying money in my wallet, I was asking for it.”

  131. 131
    Raenelle says:

    This is awful–akin to lynching. Still . . . sociopathic? Jail forever? There should be severe punishment and loud, extensive outrage and shaming–this is not what civilized people do. OTOH, mob mentality is a real thing; people do in a group what they would never do alone. And young people are both more stupid and more cruel than they will be as adults. Put the two together (kids in a mob), and you get an ugly, ugly event, but one that a normal kid could participate in, IMO. Human nature is that fucking ugly, I’m afraid.

  132. 132
    Minionero says:

    @Raenelle:

    Prepare yourself for a barrage of juvenile insults from the likes of Tax Analyst, d-pressd, and Betsy.

    Your crime? Not being outraged enough, I guess.

  133. 133
    Tax Analyst says:

    OK, ONE more remark – I’ve just gotta ask:

    RE:
    Kay to
    @Tractarian:

    “That isn’t true in my experience, and I work with delinquents.

    People “know” a lot, and violence has a much different energy than anything else… ”

    Tractarian to
    @kay:

    “Point taken. Thank you for the reasoned and insult-free response.”

    Question: Tractarian (or whoever) – you REALLY didn’t know that?? I guess that’s possible, but it never crossed my mind that any reasonably intelligent adult might truly lack an awareness of this.

    Please replace all my above angry insults, insinuations and sarcasm with pity.

  134. 134
    Mayken says:

    @LD50: **Applauds** hee, hee “blow me.”

  135. 135
    Minionero says:

    @d-pressd:

    Tip: if you find yourself typing “Let me say this real slow … ” it is usually an indication that you have publicly made an ass of yourself the people you are responding to seem not to have understood your point.

    Fixed.

  136. 136
    DebTX says:

    Kids = cell phones. There’s pictures somewhere.

  137. 137
    Minionero says:

    “@Tax Analyst: Good example of “righteous and pious indignation” there.

    The fact is, if the victim was unconscious during the assault, the onlookers (again, the dumb, ignorant, teenage onlookers) may not have sensed the “violent energy” of which Kay speaks.

    Read what raenelle said.

  138. 138
    Cassidy says:

    @geg6: Emotional reactions aside, considering the rapidly increasing sexuality and experimentation of today’s teens, it isn’t out of line.

  139. 139
    gopher2b says:

    It is amazing how people on here can so easily presuppose what happened here.

    “Critical condition” – MUST BE RAPE!!

    3 plus assaulters – MUST BE RAPE!!

    Onlookers – MUST BE RAPE!!!

    So, everyone here can honestly say that its beyond the realm of possibility that the girl had a couple drinks, consented to sex with multiple partners while others were around, and then drank herself into oblivion afterward (thus landing herself in critical condition). Not at all a possibility?

    I’m not saying this happened. I’m saying that I have no idea what happened. Furthermore, its not at all surprising to me that the police are releasing facts that support rape accusations.

    PS I don’t know what the age of consent is in California but if its less than 16 then you almost definitely have statutory rape. Let’s just pull back on the rhetoric a little bit.

  140. 140
    d-pressd says:

    The fact is, if the victim was unconscious during the assault, the onlookers (again, the dumb, ignorant, teenage onlookers) may not have sensed the “violent energy” of which Kay speaks.

    In fact, the public gangbang of a minor can have a fun, jovial atmosphere. Like a Renaissance festival. Or a game of Frisbee.

    “Hey, Fred, look at that crowd violating that 15 year old. I’d say that has, at worst, a “neutral” sort of feeling.”

    I have $5 that says your Internet history could strip the vanish off a foot locker at 100 yards.

  141. 141
    Cassidy says:

    if you find yourself typing “Let me say this real slow … ”

    It’s also an indication that some people are so concerned about gauging other’s outrage and doing the gnashing of teeth thing, that they fail to objectively consider what has been said. On a probability scale, non-consensual gang rape is definately the highest. But with the flood of interent porn, broken homes, gang culture, etc., who really know’s what the fuck happenned? How do we know it didn’t start one way and end another? Now in the end, it doesn’t matter. The poor girl was brutalized. But making a social judgement based solely on the behavior of males is irresponsible.

  142. 142
    Rathskeller says:

    @Minionero: if we were to tell you that you were completely right and your hypothetical questions, originally posted without having read any of the articles, were actually a sign of your towering intellect, in that case would you just shut the fuck up and stop posting?

    To pose another hypothetical question, is it really so hard to say, “Oh, I guess I see how I was offensive there — sorry, everybody”? I wonder if a person, hypothetically speaking, would actually burst into flames if they were to apologize on a public forum after the point where they exposed themselves as thoughtless and insensitive on a touchy subject.

    Clearly this is a nutty hypothetical, since no one knows these apologies could ever occur. Indeed, the laws of science forbid them.

  143. 143
    d-pressd says:

    @gopher2b

    Dear Mr. Polanski,

    We appreciate your forward-thinking attitudes toward child sexuality and public violence. All of which are totally non-frightening and non-sketchy. Really. None of it freaked any of us out. At all.

  144. 144
    Minionero says:

    @d-pressd:

    Is something about this funny to you? Get off your high horse and read whatgopher2b said.

  145. 145
    gopher2b says:

    @Minionero:

    I don’t think reading (or thinking) is his strong point.

    Add the fact that one of the males that was arrested is himself a minor fully demonstrates how fully stupid d-pressd actually is.

  146. 146
    Persia says:

    @Cassidy: And here I thought no one could get more disgusting than Tractarian=Minionero=jerkface and Bob. Congratulations. I hope you don’t have kids.

  147. 147
    Minionero says:

    @Rathskeller:

    Why should I apologize? All I did was suggest that perhaps–just perhaps–the onlookers didn’t realize there was an non-consensual assault going on and we shouldn’t be so quick to condemn them to life imprisonment.

    Granted, some people were offended by that. You included. Maybe some people need to get thicker skin instead of just mindlessly ratcheting up the outrage-o-meter.

  148. 148
    Persia says:

    @Minionero: Because God knows, a 15-year-old getting gang-raped isn’t worth getting outraged over.

  149. 149
    georgia pig says:

    Sadly, this isn’t really that surprising. When I was in high school in rural GA in the 70’s (lily white — there was one black guy in the school and he was gay), there was an incident in which the “school slut” – this is what she was viewed as by much of the male student body – had sex with a train of guys in a van parked outside the high school football stadium after a game.

    Was this gang rape? Probably yes, it just wasn’t as violent as this Richmond incident, she didn’t end up in the hospital and no one reported it to the cops or school officials. They got her drunk. She was a really emotionally fucked up kid (she used to do crazy shit like take off her clothes in movie theaters), and they took advantage of that. I suspect this incident fucked her up even more. The assholes involved never were punished, I think the school covered the whole thing up.

    This is a country with 300+ million people, a lot of them mentally fucked up by stupid cultural notions, like the macho bullshit that typically gives life to incidents like this. Any incident gets massive coverage because of ubiquitous media. It’s a tragedy when things like this happen, but it’s not necessarily the downfall of civilization.

  150. 150
    TenguPhule says:

    So, everyone here can honestly say that its beyond the realm of possibility that the girl had a couple drinks, consented to sex with multiple partners while others were around, and then drank herself into oblivion afterward (thus landing herself in critical condition). Not at all a possibility?

    There could also still be WMD in the sands of Iraq or moved to Syria.

    Or we could do the civilized thing and just shoot these people.

  151. 151
    Rathskeller says:

    @Minionero: I’m not offended per se. I thought your original question was kind of stupid and uninteresting. I thought your digging in when you were questioned on it was rude, in that you were insulting people who were right. I think your continued, uninteresting posts to show that you were are right right right and everyone else is wrong because they are “outraged” is a sign of a ego that has completely lost the point of the discussion and is solely focusing on you and how people respond to you.

    I think you’re acting like a dick. I’m not outraged about it.

    Your original point, let’s review, was that people who were onlookers might have mistakenly thought it was consensual. Got it. You were wrong. Let’s move on and stop defending yourself endlessly. Or move on to your third alias and we’ll forget about the first two soon enough.

  152. 152
    gopher2b says:

    @Minionero:

    I would add that no one here has any idea what the police mean by “onlookers.” Does this mean that they were holding torches while standing in a semi-circle around the girl chanting “rape the girl, rape the girl?” Or does this mean that they scattered around an outdoor party in various states of intoxication themselves. Was it dark? Was she screaming? Did they even know someone was having sex (being assaulted)? Or Did they know she was unconscious (something, btw, that was just thrown out there…there isn’t any actual evidence of this “fact” yet).

  153. 153
    Minionero says:

    @Persia:

    You need to understand that I am referring to the outrage over the onlookers, not the perpetrators.

    As far as I’m concerned, the perpetrators can get life imprisonment where they will get a taste of their own medicine. That’s not the point.

    The point is that you, and others, automatically assume that the onlookers knew this was a violent assault, rather than a consensual act. And when you get challenged, you start name calling.

  154. 154
    Minionero says:

    @Rathskeller:

    Your original point, let’s review, was that people who were onlookers might have mistakenly thought it was consensual. Got it. You were wrong.

    Really? I was wrong? Got a link?

  155. 155
    nonymouse says:

    I miss Michael Gass.

  156. 156
    gopher2b says:

    @Rathskeller:

    Your original point, let’s review, was that people who were onlookers might have mistakenly thought it was consensual. Got it. You were wrong.

    Of course, the only way you would know this was if you were there. I can’t believe you just implicated yourself as one of the “onlookers.” Wow, I hope you delete the pictures.

  157. 157
    brantl says:

    Minionero, you’re just as poor an example of humanity as Brick Oven Bill. Grow a soul, or at least a brain, hey?

  158. 158
    Tax Analyst says:

    Minionero said”

    “@Tax Analyst: Good example of “righteous and pious indignation” there.

    “The fact is, if the victim was unconscious during the assault, the onlookers (again, the dumb, ignorant, teenage onlookers) may not have sensed the “violent energy” of which Kay speaks”

    Oh, Sweet Jesus. Let’s look at where you’re at here just a little bit more, OK?

    First we had something like, “Maybe it could have been consensual” Hmmm…OK, but she would have had to have been conscious for that, right?

    So now we have, “If the victim was unconscious during the assault the onlookers may not have sensed the ‘violent energy…”

    So if she was conscious perhaps this was just…what? Maybe just a little “menage-a-ocho” game? I guess BOB would chalk that up to having all those Hot-Blooded Brown Hispanic folks all in one place at the same time.

    And if she was unconscious maybe what they were doing to her might perhaps not have seemed (at least to unsophisticated teen-age onlookers) like it was a violation of her person. Hell, in that case I’m surprised some of the onlookers didn’t just jump right in line themselves. Sure…I mean except for all those sore holes the next morning she might not even know anything happened to her at all that night. Sorta like, you know…”No Harm, No Foul”, I guess.

    OK, now I understand where you are coming from. Now if you would just kindly do us the favor of going back there and locking the door behind you I would surely be among the most grateful.

  159. 159
    kay says:

    @Minionero:

    All due respect, some people are more aware than others. You may be on the less-intuitive side ‘o the scale.

    I think you know this, Minionero, though, that there’s a different energy around malicious or violent acts than willing or consensual, and it has nothing to do with the victim, but instead comes from the aggressor.

    You’ve known it since kindergarten, when you witnessed (or suffered) your first bully. We all did.

  160. 160
    donnah says:

    I read the report by the AP in the paper today. One of the officers stated, ‘It’s one of the most disturbing crimes in my 15 years as a police officer.”

    I don’t know how else this could be interpreted.

    “This was a barbaric act. I still cannot get my head around the fact that numerous people either watched, walked away, or participated in her assault,” Lt. Mark Gagan said…

    It’s not hyperbole or overreaction to be shocked by this. It’s an honest, horrified response to a violent crime against a teenage girl. More than that, even if she had been a paid prostitute, the level of violence and degradation is unacceptable. No one deserves to be treated that way. No one.

  161. 161
    Rekster says:

    If that story amazed you how about this one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

  162. 162
    Cain says:

    @par4:

    This country needs a cleaning out that would make Stalin look like a piker.

    Luckily our president is a fascist commie who is just like Stalin, and just like Hitler.

    cain

  163. 163
    gil mann says:

    So anyone who voluntarily watches what they believe to be consensual group sex is a sociopath and barbarian?

    That’s a pretty stupid and heartless thing to say, but hey, it’s not like it affects me personally, so I won’t get all up in arms about…

    If so, judging by the popularity of internet porn, we are a nation of sociopaths and barbarians.

    Ban this prick.

  164. 164
    Ella in NM says:

    @Jack The Second:

    Awesome words of advice! Thank you Jack.

  165. 165
    Rathskeller says:

    @Minionero: Other people have cited the response of the police officers; that’s enough for me.

    What might be informative for you is to step away from the computer, stop asking others for links when they assert that you are wrong, and talk to a human being that you know about this. It could be your mother, your partner, a friend, a co-worker. I’d prefer a woman, but I think most men would suffice.

    Have them read one of the articles concerning the Richmond rape.

    Then say to them exactly what you originally said:

    What if…. what if….

    the observers thought the “gang rape” was consensual?

    Are they still sociopaths and barbarians?

    Or just horny teenagers?

    Just asking.

    If they support what you were saying, then that’s cool. You are in your element, and you can ignore me. If they don’t support what you’re saying, then whatever they say might be instructive for you.

    In my experience, most women do not consent to sex with 20 or more men. When they do consent, such as in a bukkake video, it’s extremely obvious to everyone that they are consenting. Most men do not want to have sex with an incoherent or unconscious woman. Having sex in a darkened corner next to a building is also a sign that things were very wrong. There were other signs, but honestly, I’m wondering why this has to be spelled out for you.

    They were not horny teenagers. This was not a thought experiment, it happened to an actual human being, a young girl who drank too much. These acts are real defining limits for humanity. I wish you could see that, and stop focusing on you.

  166. 166
    TenguPhule says:

    The point is that you, and others, automatically assume that the onlookers knew this was a violent assault, rather than a consensual act.

    I think the first clue was the “raped while unconscious” part.

    Does BJ need to hold an awareness fundraiser for you?

  167. 167
    LD50 says:

    @Cassidy:

    On a probability scale, non-consensual gang rape is definately the highest. But with the flood of interent porn, broken homes, gang culture, etc., who really know’s what the fuck happenned?

    The Richmond PD is pretty fucking sure it’s multiple rape.

  168. 168
    TenguPhule says:

    My bad. I didn’t actually read the article. (Can you blame me?)

    Yes, duckfucker.

  169. 169
    terry chay says:

    @Dream On: This is the Richmond district of San Francisco (north of Golden Gate Park), not Richmond, CA (in East Bay, north of Berkeley). I’m aware of the reputation of the latter (c.f. the movie Coach Carter), but not that this description applies to the former.

    Then again, I live in the other end of San Francisco so never have been to the Richmond at night.

  170. 170
    gopher2b says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Can someone please post a link to the allegation that shw eas “raped while unconscious.” You put it in quotes so I’m assuming you have an actual source.

  171. 171
    JD Rhoades says:

    @Rainy:

    One of the kids arrested is named Manuel Ortega.

    Paging Lou Dobbs, Mr. Dobbs to the White Courtesy Telephone, please…

  172. 172
    Comrade Kevin says:

    I think it’s fairly obvious that Minionero was using Cavutos, and not question marks, in his “hypothetical”.

  173. 173
    LD50 says:

    @terry chay: Pardon?

    This incident assuredly took place in the East Bay’s RICHMOND, CALIFORNIA. San Francisco is half an hour away and had nothing to do with it.

    The guy who wrote that article must be from far away — absolutely no one in the SF Bay Area would ever describe Richmond as being in “suburban San Francisco”.

  174. 174
    terry chay says:

    @terry chay: Hmm, to my last, I meant that the event took place in Richmond High School in Richmond, CA which is in Contra Costa County, not in the Richmond District in San Francisco County.

    The confusion of the two explains why the news report can error by referring to it as “suburban San Francisco,” when, in fact, it was not.

  175. 175
    Minionero says:

    @gopher2b:

    Shhhhh, don’t you dare ask for a link to support bald assertions! That makes you a “duckfucker” or a “heartless prick” who deserves to be banned!

  176. 176
    RedKitten says:

    If the victim was unconscious during the assault the onlookers may not have sensed the ‘violent energy…

    No, but they would have sensed that she was fucking unconscious, and thus not consenting. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.

    We’ve got two possible scenarios here, people.

    Scenario 1: The girl was conscious and lucid during the attack, in which case it would have been pretty fucking easy to determine whether or not she was actually enjoying events, no? Even someone with a low IQ can probably tell the difference between a girl enjoying sex and a girl who is not enjoying sex. And when a girl winds up in critical condition afterwards, I think we’re pretty safe in saying that she did not enjoy the experience.

    Scenario 2: The girl was unconscious or otherwise “out of it” during the attack, in which case it’s pretty fucking obvious that the sex is not consensual, regardless of what kind of energy happens to be floating around.

    As we’ve learned, it’s unfortunately not illegal to fail to report a crime. However, I do hope that they find out who was watching, and sit those people down for some serious re-educating.

  177. 177
    terry chay says:

    @LD50: Yes, you are right. Sorry that my wording was as backwards as the news reporter who referred to Richmond as “suburban San Francisco.” :-)

  178. 178
    JD Rhoades says:

    @jibeaux:

    It is hard to read fifty pages of that book without feeling like for half the world a return to medieval values might be an improvement.

    Well “medieval values” also included the systematic rape of women and young girls in cities that were captured after refusing to surrender.

    @DBrown:

    Tragic; yet, so is a drunk driver that slaughters a whole family but DUI’s still get a bye in too many States

    Which states are these? I’m interested. I’d like to move my practice to a place where DUI’s get a ‘bye,”.

  179. 179
    JD Rhoades says:

    @d-pressd:

    When asked for comment, KBR said they had no plans to bring their recruiting team back to Richmond High School.

    I’m going to hell for laughing at this, aren’t I?

  180. 180
    LD50 says:

    @JD Rhoades: Yes, you’re just as much of a monster as those people who laughed at the Balloon Boy story.

  181. 181
    Scott H says:

    @gopher2b: “While semiconscious, she was raped. As many as seven people assaulted her as she lay on a bench, while others jeered, beat her, robbed her and took photos with their cell phones.”

    linky

  182. 182
    licensed to kill time says:

    Gads, got here late and haven’t read comments but when I saw the topic I knew it wouldn’t be two shakes of a lamb’s tail until BoB chimed in with his blackity black crap.

    Just like on the “Obama hates women” it was inevitable that MakeaWee would show up and start spraying urine all over the thread.

    This story is horrific and reminds me of that famous case years ago in NYC where a woman got murdered and lots of people heard but closed their windows and didn’t call the cops. I started to google around to remember her name, but sadly there are literally pages and pages of similar cases.

    (just found it, the teh Kitty Genovese case in 1964 where 38 people saw her being stalked and murdered. No one wanted to get involved.

  183. 183
    gil mann says:

    @JD Rhoades:

    I’m going to hell for laughing at this, aren’t I?

    We can split the gas and tolls.

  184. 184
    licensed to kill time says:

    @licensed to kill time:
    I didn’t deliberately misspell “the” in the link above. Also, this current case goes far beyond not wanting to get involved.

  185. 185
    Rathskeller says:

    @gopher2b: The officers arriving at the scene reported that the woman was unconscious. Every account I’ve read has said this.

    There were 440,000 links on my first search; I can see how you were unable to find it.

    http://www.google.com/search?h.....&aqi=

  186. 186
    Cassidy says:

    @LD50: Okay. I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said it wasn’t irresponsible to entertain other possibilities. I mean if you want to continue in the hysterical shrieking vein, that’s cool, but considering the satte of today’s youth, it isn’t irresponsible to look at all possibilities. But hey, let’s continue with the Duke treatment, because obviously only young males take part in degenraate behavior.

  187. 187
    JD Rhoades says:

    @gil mann:

    We can split the gas and tolls.

    Okay, but I get to pick the music.

  188. 188
    gopher2b says:

    @Rathskeller:

    How do you get “raped while unconscious” from “officers arriving at the scene reported that the woman was unconscious.”

  189. 189
    Minionero says:

    @RedKitten:

    Scenario 2: The girl was unconscious or otherwise “out of it” during the attack, in which case it’s pretty fucking obvious that the sex is not consensual, regardless of what kind of energy happens to be floating around.

    Obvious to you. Obvious to me. But obvious to a bunch of dumb drunk teenagers? I think you and @kay give their intellect and intuition too much credit.

  190. 190
    LD50 says:

    @Cassidy:

    Okay. I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said it wasn’t irresponsible to entertain other possibilities. I mean if you want to continue in the hysterical shrieking vein, that’s cool,

    I would invite you to tell me where I spent time in ‘the hysterical shrieking vein’.

    considering the state of today’s youth, it isn’t irresponsible to look at all possibilities.

    That’s why we have these things called ‘trials’.

    only young males take part in degenraate behavior.

    This is such an irrelevant comment, I’ll just let it drop.

  191. 191
    gopher2b says:

    @Rathskeller:

    This is a much better article of what happened. And it answers some questions that I had (like if she was walking to meet her father, where was her father for 2 1/2 hours).

  192. 192
    Persia says:

    @LD50: “only young males take part in degenraate behavior” isn’t irrelevant though. It was leads to the culture that leads to shit like this. “Boys will be boys,” so why bother expecting them to treat women like human beings?

  193. 193
    RedKitten says:

    Scenario 2: The girl was unconscious or otherwise “out of it” during the attack, in which case it’s pretty fucking obvious that the sex is not consensual, regardless of what kind of energy happens to be floating around.

    But obvious to a bunch of dumb drunk teenagers? I think you and @kay give their intellect and intuition too much credit.

    If the girl was indeed unconscious or otherwise unresponsive, do you honestly, honestly believe for even one second that ALL of those people watching thought that she was enjoying it? I mean, were they honestly thinking, “Gee, she’s just laying there with her eyes closed, passed out. I bet she’s LOVING this!”?

    Look, I’ve BEEN a dumb, drunk teenager, and have pulled my share of seriously idiotic stunts. But unless they were all so drunk as to be passed out themselves, there still would have been a basic level of reasoning there. And they weren’t so drunk they couldn’t function. As per Scott’s link, “As many as seven people assaulted her as she lay on a bench, while others jeered, beat her, robbed her and took photos with their cell phones. Police say they don’t know how many people watched during the course of the attack, but some reports have said as many 20.”

    So the observers jeered, beat her, robbed her, and took photos with their phones.

    That is NOT a bunch of horny teenagers who think they’re watching a consensual orgy. That is an ugly, ugly mob, and they should be going to jail alongside the ones who raped her.

  194. 194
    RedKitten says:

    @gopher2b: Your link is screwed, Gopher. You’ve got two https in there.

    Here, I fixed it for you.

  195. 195
    Cassidy says:

    @Persia: And you’re a moron. Are you so brainwashed that you can’t see beyond your feminist prejudice? Quick update, along with Ipods and Starbucks, we now have a rising propensity for young males and females to participate in sexually degenrate behavior. Go read a few pages from textsfromlastnight.com, just to get a feel for the nihilism. Neither myself, nor anyone else has said that this wasn’t a case of rape. And I even specifically said, that regardless of it how it started, that’s where it ended.

  196. 196
    kay says:

    @Minionero:

    I do not give intellect and intuition too much credit. I don’t think it has anything to do with “intellect”, by the way, or age. It has to do with an ability to walk by and read what’s happening. It’s not an intellectual exercise. It’s not making a series of decisions, based on pieces of evidence. It’s an overall impression, and it happens fast, and people do it all the time. Just perhaps not you.

    I also think there are some people who are “heroes” in that they’re unafraid and tend to jump in, or speak up, and that happens fast too, or it doesn’t happen at all. There aren’t that many of them, in my experience. I would disagree with the people here who say jumping in or speaking up is the norm. I don’t think it is. I think the tendency is to follow, and do what everyone else is doing.

    They knew something was going terribly wrong here. None of them did anything, and the longer that inertia went on, the less likely anyone was going to do anything. Once they passed that awareness, and didn’t act, they’re complicit, and less likely to act.

  197. 197
    Rathskeller says:

    @gopher2b:
    I don’t know why you think that article makes anyone look better. Because of the word “semi-conscious”? From the article, women at the scene were afraid to approach during the crime without a police escort. Legally and morally, it is unimportant if a person was unconscious or semi-conscious during sex. They haven’t given consent, can’t give consent. It’s rape. It’s an ugly, violent act. She’s a 15 year old in a goddamn hospital now. Why do you seem to want to defend the onlookers?

    I honestly don’t know what you believe, or why you think it’s important. I do think that you think you are right, and shouldn’t be questioned. When people contradict you, you insult them and demand they provide links. When people provide links, you insult some more and provide links that only use the word “semi-conscious” instead of “unconscious”. This doesn’t prove whatever point you’re trying to make.

    Could you spell your point out? Is it “maybe everyone onlooking this crime wasn’t so guilty and barbaric as they seem at first”?

  198. 198
    Minionero says:

    @<a h@kay:

    It’s an overall impression, and it happens fast, and people do it all the time. Just perhaps not you.

    And perhaps not a bunch of dumb, drunk teenagers, either.

    (By the way, my intuition is fine, thank you very much. I can sense “violent energy” a mile away.)

  199. 199
    kay says:

    @Minionero:

    I don’t understand why you think your observation skills are so vastly superior to a 19 year olds. If your theory here is that you have more worldly experience to call on with what constitutes consensual sex as opposed to rape and robbery than they do, you might well be wrong on that.

    It doesn’t make any sense. The reverse could just as well be true.

    I’ll bet you five dollars a witness says in a statement “no one else was doing anything, and some people were laughing”. They ignore what they know and look to what others are doing to form an impression because it’s too scary to buck the crowd and act. It’ s not unique to teenagers, not by a long shot, and it has nothing to do with “intellect” or “knowledge”.

  200. 200
    geg6 says:

    @Cassidy:

    And you’re a moron. Are you so brainwashed that you can’t see beyond your feminist prejudice?

    WTF? And you are a moron, yourself. I certainly hope you don’t have any children. Especially female ones.

    Seems to me you spend a little too much time reading the most disgusting media portrayals of young people. I work with young people every day and have for well over 20 years, in a variety of settings. Nothing you describe about so-called behavioral/sexual norms among that population rings true to me. What you describe are the outliers, not how real young people act. What I do know is that when I have witnessed outlier behavior, it is almost always perpetrated by groups of young men. Not to say there aren’t awful young women, but they tend less toward that behavior and when they do, it is more likely to be personal and one-on-one.

  201. 201
    Bruce (formerly Steve S.) says:

    I wouldn’t mind putting everyone of these people in jail for life

    Wow. Gonna be kinda crowded in there after we get finished jailing everybody who watched a gang rape, watched torture, watched war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, watched countless crimes happening both here and abroad, and did nothing to stop them. And for life, too. Better start taking resumes for prison guards right away, and don’t be too choosy.

  202. 202
    Minionero says:

    @kay:

    I don’t understand why you think your observation skills are so vastly superior to a 19 year olds.

    Well, I am assuming that said 19-year-olds were extremely drunk. I think that has a somewhat negative effect on “observation skills.”

  203. 203
    gopher2b says:

    @Rathskeller:

    Wow. First of all, I haven’t insulted anyone. And I don’t think asking for a link is insulting. I don’t know why you would interpret it that way.

    Second, the best article about what happened here is the one I posted. And that article, unlike the others referred to in this post, creates a strong impression that a rape occurred.

    Third, the article Cole initially posted is terrible. It’s contradictory, it has factual gaps, and it fails to explain critical facts. Based on this, I decided to withhold judgment. Fucking sue me.

    Fourth, I know what unconscious means. I don’t know what “semi-conscious” means. And I certainly don’t know what a bunch of cops think “semi-conscious” means.

    I’m not defending anyone. But you’re full of torches and pitchforks and I don’t believe that is the morally superior position here.

  204. 204
    Persia says:

    @geg6: Not to mention that ‘degenerate behavior’ hardly started in 2001, or whenever Cassidy decided the world began going to hell. But people are texting about it now, so I guess that makes it worse.

  205. 205
    kay says:

    @Minionero:

    I would suggest that people, old people, young people, act in cowardly or deliberately oblivious ways a lot. Most of the time. How many times have you heard this? “Didn’t they KNOW?”. I think they do know.
    When I’ve seen people act in less cowardly ways it has been when they followed their first, genuine impulse, and did not look to other people for endorsement or approval of acting or not acting.
    We’re just going to have to disagree. I think people know a hell of a lot. That they rarely (IMO) act on what they know is another issue.
    I’m a big fan of proper process, and charges, and trials, so I’m not hauling anyone off yet. But my opinion? They knew.

  206. 206
    Rathskeller says:

    @gopher2b: I took your earlier remark, asking if I was an onlooker as an insult; but you’re right, most of what you’ve written was not insulting.

    Thanks for clarifying your position — which was actually made earlier in your posts, but I hadn’t associated those remarks with you. You want to withhold judgment. I don’t think that’s a reasonable point of view at all, but it’s a lot clearer than “this is a much better article.”

  207. 207
    Minionero says:

    @gopher2b:

    Third, the article Cole initially posted is terrible. It’s contradictory, it has factual gaps, and it fails to explain critical facts. Based on this, I decided to withhold judgment. Fucking sue me.

    FWIW, I got caught in the same trap.

    That’ll teach me to comment on a John Cole post before doing comprehensive research on the topic at hand.

  208. 208
    Lihtox says:

    @Stefan: Can’t. It’s not a crime to watch a crime.

    Not that appealing to sitcoms makes for the best argument, but wasn’t that what got Seinfeld (the character) and friends thrown in jail?

    According to Wikipedia, in some states (though perhaps not California) it is required by law to provide reasonable assistance to someone in trouble.

  209. 209
    Darkrose says:

    The original story is disturbing. Almost as disturbing is that in 2009 some people’s first reaction to a story about rape is “the slut was asking for it”.

  210. 210
    Minionero says:

    @kay:

    I think people know a hell of a lot.

    That’s a very bold statement. I don’t know how you can make it without considering a person’s age, education, background, blood alcohol content, etc. But then again, we’re agreeing to disagree…

  211. 211
    Seebach says:

    It’s just surprising to me that the first thought you could have after reading this is “Won’t somebody please think of the onlookers?” Why is it important to prove the onlookers were just stupid and not evil? Self interest? Defending a friend?

    Your first impulse isn’t, “Wow, that’s terrible.” or “Too bad someone didn’t help.” It’s “Hey now, they could have just been jerking off to a gangbang going on in the dark besides a school where people were beating up and robbing and taking pictures.”

    Where does that exactly say where your priorities are?

  212. 212
    kay says:

    @Minionero:

    You’re telling yourself a story. “They would have helped had they only known“.

    That’s just not a story I believe. Some few people intercede. Not many.

    That’s why we make such a huge deal when someone does. It’s not all that common.

  213. 213
    Minionero says:

    @Seebach:

    It’s just surprising to me that the first thought you could have after reading this is “Won’t somebody please think of the onlookers?”

    I can’t speak for everyone, but that certainly wasn’t my first thought, or my second or third. My first thoughts were sympathy for the victim and rage for the perpetrators.

    But, as you can see if you read the thread, those thoughts were amply elucidated by the time I posted–in response to calls for the onlookers to be imprisoned for life–my hypothetical asking what if the onlookers didn’t know they were witnessing a crime.

    I could have prefaced the post with something like “Now, I have the utmost sympathy for the victim and the perpetrators need to be punished, but…” I didn’t because I thought that was understood.

    I guess you can never take anything for granted with some people.

  214. 214
    Minionero says:

    @kay:

    You’re telling yourself a story. “They would have helped had they only known”

    No. I’m saying it’s possible that they didn’t know. And if they didn’t know, it would be a little harsh to imprison them for life for not intervening.

  215. 215

    @Brick Oven Bill: No, BoB, the fucking question is, what the fuck species are you? You fucking Cretin.

  216. 216
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Brachiator:

    Human. Totally unlike you.

    Win. But what a shame you had to write these four words in the first place.

  217. 217
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @nonymouse:

    L… O… L…

    The helicopters, however… are NOT… laughing.

  218. 218
    Makewi says:

    @LD50:

    I am against gang rape, or to be more specific rape of any kind, and you are a world class asshole.

  219. 219
    LD50 says:

    @Makewi:You’re not really reading for comprehension today, are you?

    No, what we were expecting was for you to make some asinine statement about how it’s hypocritical for ‘liberals’ to speak out against rape. You know, sth. like “OH YEAH YOU GUYS SUPPORTED CLINTON AND HE WAS A RAPIST!!!” That’s the kind of nuanced stuff we’ve come to expect from you.

  220. 220
    jenniebee says:

    @Minionero:

    The fact is, if the victim was unconscious during the assault, the onlookers (again, the dumb, ignorant, teenage onlookers) may not have sensed the “violent energy” of which Kay speaks.

    A rape victim’s unconscious state given as an excuse for why participants wouldn’t understand that it was rape. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

  221. 221
    PIGL says:

    @Stefan:
    I think you are correct that that “watching” is not a crime, but it should be in egregious cases like this.

    We all sense that there is duty not to be a passive observer in cases like this, because, I believe, there is no moral difference between that state, and active facilitation. The law should reflect this moral sentiment like a thousand tons of bricks.

    Actually, if I was all powerful god someone mentioned, I’d be thinking “very very very slow fire”.

  222. 222
    Robin says:

    I doubt this will be read 220 responses down, but I just heard a story on NPR (yes, they do have their uses) about tracking people by cell phone usage. That’s what they should do in this case. They have a fairly defined space of time from when the girl was last seen until they received the 911 call. They should search all the calls in that area. It would be a job to search through all those callers, but on a high profile case like this, they could do it. Also, they caught 2 guys red-handed, Those 2 are looking at 25 years. If you take 5 years off, they might start talking. Whether they have anything useful to say is another matter, but someone had to be there when they showed up, or were they the ringleaders & there the whole time.

  223. 223
    Shade Tail says:

    @jenniebee (#220):

    A rape victim’s unconscious state given as an excuse for why participants wouldn’t understand that it was rape. I just threw up in my mouth a little.

    That’s been the quality of Minionero’s “argument” (read: snide yet ignorant ranting) for the entire comment thread.

  224. 224
    Steeplejack says:

    @Minionero:

    [Gopher2b:] Third, the article Cole initially posted is terrible. It’s contradictory, it has factual gaps, and it fails to explain critical facts. Based on this, I decided to withhold judgment. Fucking sue me.

    __
    FWIW, I got caught in the same trap.
    __
    That’ll teach me to comment on a John Cole post before doing comprehensive research on the topic at hand.

    Oh, really? @Here’s you at #80:

    My bad. I didn’t actually read the article. (Can you blame me?)

    Your problem wasn’t that you didn’t do “comprehensive research.” Your problem was that you didn’t read the article at all before popping off with your edgy, contrarian comment.

    You’re just digging yourself a deeper hole. Why don’t you pack it in and admit that this was one of those days when you sounded like an asshole? We all have them.

  225. 225
    abrxas says:

    John,

    I’m with you on jailing the amoral mother fuckers.

    But as someone who’s a survivor of childhood sexual abuse who is lucky/blessed enough to have a great wife, close friends, decent work life, nice house, etc., I can tell you that the tiny sliver of good news in this is that with a lot of care and very good therapy, the girl’s life needn’t be ruined. I hope to god she gets it.

  226. 226

    […] excuses.  Well, Richmond’s a pretty rough town. Anything can happen in a mob like that.  These kids must have been sociopaths.  Teenage brains aren’t even fully developed.  The point of all these was the same: I […]

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