You Have to Be Kidding Me

Joe Klein on why Glenn Greenwald is not a serious person:

For the past several years, Greenwald has conducted a persistent, malicious campaign to distort who I am and where I stand. He is a mean-spirited, graceless bully. During that time, I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military, which has transformed itself dramatically for the better since Rumsfeld’s departure (indeed, he ridiculed me when I reported that the situation in Anbar Province was turning around in 2007). I have never seen him acknowledge that the work of the clandestine service—performed disgracefully by the CIA during the early Bush years—is an absolute necessity in a world where terrorists have the capability to attack us at any time, in almost any place. Nor have I seen [him] acknowledge that such a threat exists, nor make a single positive suggestion about how to confront that threat in ways that might conform to his views. Therefore, I have seen no evidence that he cares one whit about the national security of the United States. It is not hyperbole, it is a fact.

You have to love the sheer beauty of that baby, don’t you? Read it a second time. Klein is condemning Greenwald for what he HASN’T said. How awesome is that? I mean, if you get to condemn people for things they haven’t said, you can just make up any old shit and then smear someone. Why, I bet Greenwald has not recently stated that he loves the Humane Society. In Jokeline’s world, that is clear evidence that Glenn cares not a whit about animals. Even better, Greenwald may have even said all the things that Jokeline arbitrarily has decided he needs to say, but if Klein hasn’t seen them, well, the accusation still stands.

Additionally, how awesome is it that in order to prove you care about national security, you have to fellate the military, the CIA, and whenever a similar topic arises, gravely announce in a serious voice that you are very, very, serious about national security. Pretty weak, Joe. Pretty weak. This is the kind of crap that certain folks throw at Joe when they call him a self-hating Jew. You’d think Klein would recognize this kind of nonsense for what it is.

And the real reason Klein hates Greenwald is because Greenwald pointed out that he had no idea what he was talking about regarding FISA. For someone completely serious about national security (as we are to assume Klein is from that pompous snippet from an email), Klein sure didn’t know what the hell he was talking about nor did he bother to concern himself with the details.

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115 replies
  1. 1
    tomjones says:

    Meh. Greenwald’s OK, but he’s an extremist, albeit one for civil liberties. But navigating in between extremes is what adults do.

  2. 2
    Donna says:

    Methinks Joe needs some cheese to go with his whine.

  3. 3
    cleek says:

    I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military

    OK this took 30 seconds to find:

    You don’t have a monopoly on supporting the troops. I know a lot of people who vigorously oppose the war in Iraq and not a single one of them direct any of their anger about the war or opposition to it at the soliders, including me. Even soliders who fight in unjust wars are typically honorable and brave.

    another 5:

    What kind of moral monsters would knowingly advocate policies — such as keeping Guantanamo opened and using “enhanced interrogation techniques” — which our top military leaders and the Commander-in-Chief have clearly stated will help America’s enemies and directly result in the deaths of the brave American men and women serving overseas (and that’s to say nothing of their support for a totally unnecessary war that sent more than 4,000 American soldiers — and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis — to their deaths)?

  4. 4
    Jim R says:

    Greenwald’s the best. Klein’s the kind of “adult” I could do without.

  5. 5
    Ajay says:

    Day for the morons. Combine this with what Tucker/AnnMarieCox said about Tabibi in earlier post here.

    These guys are just simply threatened. They have no idea what they do as they are used to being rewarded for being mediocre. How dare anyone from Blogland question them. Ann Marie should know better though.

  6. 6
    Annie says:

    As the rhetoric on health system reform makes clear, it is easier for the opposition to take issue with what people did not say, than to debate the merits of what they actually said.

    Ooops, I didn’t say anything about Lily and Tunch. Therefore, one can surmise that I don’t think they are absolutely adorable.

  7. 7
    bhagamu says:

    Obama never said he was a citizen, so he’s not.

    … oh, that was last month’s line? I’m behind.

  8. 8
    Brian says:

    Looks like Glenn is moving up in the world. Joe is now not only using Glenn’s name, but using it as a banner headline.

    I’m so old I can remember when the village-cocktail-party-set would refuse to mention Glenn by name and begin any response to his arguments with the mandatory, “of course I never read these silly things called ‘blogs,’ but my wife’s, hairdresser’s brother’s plumber told me some guy named Glenn Green-something-or-other said…”

  9. 9
    Mayur says:

    @tomjones: The idea of “extremism” doesn’t make sense when discussing issues that have no net-net calculus vis-a-vis social policy.

    To Godwin this: According to Joe Klein, “extremism” vis-a-vis the Holocaust somehow becomes the argument that Hitler should kill *no one* because of religion/color/sexual orientation/party affiliation. If that’s an “extreme” view (and it arguably is so in the milieu of 1938 Germany) then color me extreme.

    As to the entire “positive sentence about the US military” shit: Fuck him. An organization controlling the lives of thousands of poor saps sent to die in needless wars doesn’t deserve a “positive sentence” up until the point at which it earns one. And yes, I entertain nothing less than utter sympathy for those poor souls sent to die in Iraq and Afghanistan (I knew a few). But this military fetishism crap needs to stop.

  10. 10
    jl says:

    I have one quibble.

    “And the real reason Klein hates Greenwald is because Greenwald pointed out that he had no idea what he was talking about regarding FISA. ”

    I think it is more than that. Greenwald pointed out that Klein admitted he did not know anything about FISA, and Klein still felt entitled to issue grave, judicious pundit wiseman (or maybe, wiseguy) judgment on it that everyone should take very seriously.

    Greenwald pointed out that was a a preposterous and arrogant combo posture for Klein to take. I don’t remember Klein having a good reply.

    But on to more important issues. I do not believe a certain Mr. Cole has never said he would lay down his life for Lily The Dog and Tunch The Cat.

    What an unfeeling beast that Cole is.

    And, Cole has never said that he would go humbly and peacefully into that good night, when Tunch decides that his impertinant master’s usefulness is done.

    The sheer arrogance!

  11. 11
    beltane says:

    “It is not hyperbole. It is a fact.” That’s rich coming at the end of a paragraph that contains more hyperbole than I can read while keeping a straight face. Klein has the occasional moment of lucidity. This is not one of them.

    And Glenn Greenwald is very mean spirited for not regurgitating Bush administration propaganda. How dare he.

  12. 12
    JSDreyer says:

    First, read the comments after Joe’s little whine.

    Second, the reason Glenn is so effective and respected is that he sticks to the facts and backs everything up with data and cites. And he is lead to his conclusions based on those. Sorry, Joe, but you’re not just not going to be effective criticizing him unless you do the same.

  13. 13
    jl says:

    As for me, I have not said to every registered voter I know every time I see them, that they should, above all, ignore the opinion of Joe Klein, The WaPol editorial page, George Will, Richard Cohen, Thomas Friedman, Ms. Dowd, and a dozen other dangerous maniacs in the corporate press.

    Some guy who votes just walked by right now, and I didn’t say a word about ignoring Joe Klein.

    I am ashamed.

  14. 14
    JK says:

    Joe Klein is extremely thin skinned. When Vassar professor and literary attributionist Donald Foster suggested Klein was a likely co-author of Primary Colors, Klein adamantly denied authorship and personally criticized Foster. Klein is someone who can’t tolerate criticism of his work and doesn’t like to admit mistakes.

  15. 15
    me says:

    But navigating in between extremes is what adults do.

    Am I an “evolution extremist” because I think that YEC’s are idiots?

  16. 16
    Enceladus says:

    Hmm, Joe Klein… Let me think… Joe Klein…

    Ah! Isn’t he some acolyte of Pete Hoekstra?

  17. 17

    Glenzilla is really movin’ up the Gandhi Curve:

    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

    I think they’re fighting him now. Good times.

  18. 18
    Church Lady says:

    Didn’t Klein recently write an essay tearing down the Republicans? I think I saw something about it on this very blog, celebrating Klein calling the Republicans a party “overwhelmed by nihilists and hypocrites.” And wasn’t everyone here just SWOONING over Klein just then? Things certainly do turn on a dime in these parts.

  19. 19
    El Cid says:

    Does this stupid god-damned worthless ass clown Klein think that if he isn’t going around praising the military and the ‘clandestine services’ that our actual security would suffer one god-damned tiny fucking bit ???

    Fuck you, you god-damned delusional beltway shitbag, Joe Klein. If you spent the entirety of the rest of your life writing praises for the military and ‘clandestine services’ or conversely condemning them, it would matter zero.

    Unlike you, Klein, Greenwald remembers what real thinkers and writers like Stone and Orwell realized — it’s kind of important to write about things as they are, no matter if it pisses off the powerful.

    Fuck all your idiot Village friends who think that you’re all that stands between safety and the dirty fucking hippie surrender of the country. You know what would help our security? If more of your ilk gave a god-damned about sharing the truth of the world with the nation’s citizens rather than thinking you’re some sort of substitute teacher who needs to keep us rabble from thinking bad thoughts about our government.

  20. 20
    Mayur says:

    @Church Lady: Bullshiat. No one was “swooning” over Klein.

    STFU and take your stupid false equivalency out the door with you.

  21. 21
    trollhattan says:

    Glenzilla has an eerie ability to focus on and drill into an issue like few writers I follow. Yet there Klein is, with his cushy job(s), book deals, etc., disliking being singed by the Glenzilla lasers. Be the bigger guy Joe, you’re the famous one, yes?

    I shall enjoy the frickin’ lasers next use on Klein (zzzzzt). What a baby.

  22. 22
    RandomChick says:

    @JSDreyer:
    Yes. The comments are hilarious. I’m on the 2nd page and no one’s supporting Joe yet.

    This is the best one:

    The reading today is from the Book of Klein, chapter 73, beginning at the 13th verse:
    .
    And there were those who muttered against Klein, for there was discontent in the Land of Bafflegab, and the Centrists were discomforted. And there arose a mighty man of valor, that was named Greenwald. And around him were acolytes, many and pathetic, and they did say many unkind things, even unto publishing alarmingly accurate reports of things said at picnics, which did mightily enrage Klein, so that the blood rushed to his head and the steam out of his ears. And Klein took up his word-processor to smite them. Vast was the word-processor, of sounding brass and luminous silicon, and the length of it was seven bull-sh*ts, and the width of it was three. And the prophet Hoekstra blessed Klein and anointed him with his own manly juicings, and Klein went forth to battle. And as he issued from the Gate of Broder, through which a camel may not fit, the face of Klein was terrible, and his chariots numberless as the secret WMD sites of Iraq. And Klein came down unto the Plain of Fisa, and confronted Greenwald, who was a stripling youth, armed only with a sling…..</blockquote

  23. 23
    GregB says:

    Glenn Beck may be on to something. It seems we are surrounded by morons, lackeys, dupes, stooges, sycophants, goons, and knaves.

    -G

  24. 24
    gwangung says:

    @Church Lady: Aww, come on, that’s unworthy of you.

    If Klein says something intelligent, you praise him. If Klein says something stupid, you criticize him (even dump on him).

    Common sense. Works with pets, kids and sentient adults.

  25. 25
    RandomChick says:

    blockquote fail. Everything after “This is the best one:” is supposed to be a quote.

  26. 26
    DougJ says:

    Didn’t Klein recently write an essay tearing down the Republicans? I think I saw something about it on this very blog, celebrating Klein calling the Republicans a party “overwhelmed by nihilists and hypocrites.” And wasn’t everyone here just SWOONING over Klein just then? Things certainly do turn on a dime in these parts.

    Obvious spoof. I can’t believe I let you get to me before. Shame on me. Well-played, til now.

  27. 27
    Ajay says:

    Church Lady,


    Didn’t Klein recently write an essay tearing down the Republicans? I think I saw something about it on this very blog, celebrating Klein calling the Republicans a party “overwhelmed by nihilists and hypocrites.”

    Yes. His tide turned few years ago. He was late but he saw his talents are worthless unless he turns. He needs a job.


    And wasn’t everyone here just SWOONING over Klein just then? Things certainly do turn on a dime in these parts.

    Almost everyone knows that his opinions are worthless regardless of which side he takes.

  28. 28
    jl says:

    @JK: Thanks for reminding me that Klein is also a liar. Not sure that the lie was about much, unless there was a journalistic ethics or bias issue and whether there is or not is something else I forget.

    But that brings up another issue -why can’t this country do something about the scandal of pompous persons of public affairs and politics writing novels about pompous people of public affairs and politics.

    Barbara Boxer wrote a novel! See what this is leading to?

    What next? DiFi will have a novel. Reid will have some kind of…. short story. McConnell? Can you imagine Boehner writing a novel? It might be the end of civilization. And Boehner is trying to accomplish that anyway. But he might just become completely depraved and say ‘Ah the heck with it, I’m taking the gloves off and getting it over with”, and he’ll write a novel.

  29. 29
    JK says:

    @GregB:

    I hope you meant Glenn Greenwald. Glenn Beck and, for that matter, Glenn Reynolds have never been on to something. Beck and Reynolds are born liars.

    The Glenn Guide
    Glenn Greenwald = The Good Glenn
    Glenn Beck and Glenn Reynolds = The Bad Glenns

  30. 30
    Capn America says:

    Klein is a loser. This is a guy whose obituary of Ted Kennedy included two separate references to him toking up with the Kennedy kids… I guess he thinks his readers are the kind of people who got a thrill when the school jock would let them “smell his finger”.

  31. 31
    John Cole says:

    @Church Lady: I’ve linked Klein numerous times when I agree with him and think he is making sense. And then when he is a dimestore McCarthyite, like he was with this crap, I say as much.

    Isn’t that how it is supposed to work?

  32. 32
    wasabi gasp says:

    @Church Lady: To lash SWOONING with a link would have been the christian thing to do.

  33. 33
    MoeLarryAndJesus says:

    If there’s any evidence suggesting that Klein cares about anything other than his precious career I’ve never seen it. The guy would post pictures of his grandma’s vagina online to extend his time “on top” by a week.

  34. 34
    tripletee says:

    @Church Lady:

    Things certainly do turn on a dime in these parts

    We can always count on you to be consistently tedious, though.

  35. 35
    Comrade Kevin says:

    Church Lady is very, very concerned about the way people link to Joke Line.

  36. 36
    DougJ says:

    Almost everyone knows that his opinions are worthless regardless of which side he takes.

    I actually don’t agree with that. He did a good job with is posts on Iraq last year.

    Granted, those don’t have to do with his opinions per se. He occasionally writes interesting things that I like. Maybe I should leave it at that.

  37. 37
    Capn America says:

    @36 DougJ : the wierd thing is, Greenwald’s actually praised Klein many times before, especially for his coming out against the neocons and Middle East policy.

  38. 38
    Robertdsc-iphone says:

    Klein’s way off base. I’m not particularly enamored of GG but Klein’s really missed the mark.

  39. 39
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @JK: No, I’m pretty sure it was a reference to Glenn Beck and his “we surround them” crap from a few months ago.

  40. 40
    gizmo says:

    I saw Joe Klein today and he wasn’t wearing a flag pin. Traitor.

  41. 41
    Keith G says:

    @gwangung:

    Common sense. Works with pets, kids and sentient adults.

    So should you be trying it on Church Lady?

  42. 42
    r€nato says:

    Has Joe Klein denounced pedophilia lately?

    Then clearly Joe Klein cares not one wit about pedophilia. That is not hyperbole, it is a fact.

  43. 43
    JackieBinAZ says:

    @Church Lady: No, I don’t recollect any swooning. I think the gist of the comments was that it was only a matter of time before he said something idiotic again. In fact, in the main post, DougJ wrote:

    Pearlstein and Klein will continue to wank …

    … and he didn’t disappoint.

    As a footnote, the only swooning I’ve seen here is over babies and animals.

  44. 44
    jl says:

    Also. Klein’s reaction reminds me of Todd’s anger at Scahill for criticizing him too harshly in a news piece. What concerned Todd, in his own words? Scahill made him ‘look bad’ and air; that is, harmed his media PR gimmick serious pundit brandname.

    How about Dana Milbank, the dramatic sketch artist of a recently, and tragically canceled internet series, who tries out reporting once in awhile. What was his reaction after Pitney debunked Milbank’s bogus Iranquestiongate scandal with relevant countercharges and ‘facts’? Milbank became the vindictive dickwhisperer.

    And then three is Carlson and Cox calling Taibbi names.

    And going way back, isn’t Carlson the dudhead who plaintively asked John Stewart to be funny and ‘play along’ with the schtick, and then went pissy when Stewart would not bend to his will like an abject slave? And Stewart then ripped him to shreds with his pinky?

    This is a widespread syndrome with these people. Is there a clinical diagnosis? Does it have a name?

  45. 45
  46. 46
    Citizen_X says:

    Jeebus, Klein, first rule of holes and all that: STOP FUCKING DIGGING.

    Nobody in the Village ever comes out of a scrape with Greenwald looking good. Can the high-camp hysteria you’ve been using this last couple of weeks, kid. You’re just gonna hurt yourself.

  47. 47
    Ajay says:

    DougJ,

    JokeLine sold himself short for many many years. Yes, I do think he does write some stuff which is more of what he as a journalist should be doing but his history makes it hard for him to be trusted or taken seriously. He is just an opportunist. I wont be surprised if he turns back to what he was.

    For most in MSM its nothing more than red/blue and that never works. So I partly agree with you but he is not someone I would ever read or follow.

  48. 48
    gwangung says:

    @Keith G: I could have said that we’re not the ones turning on a dime, but that may not have gotten the point across…

  49. 49
    J.W. Hamner says:

    Ouch, that’s just bad. I actually agree with Klein that Greenwald’s style isn’t all that appealing(to me obvi)… but all of Klein’s reasons are pretty pathetic and obviously 100% personal.

  50. 50

    Greenwald posted those emails here and they aren’t as “private” as Klein would have one believe. Read through and you will see that Klein’s attacks were indeed fact free.

  51. 51
    JK says:

    @Comrade Kevin:

    Maybe that’s the case. However, it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen someone refer to one Glenn when, in reality, they meant one of the other 2 Glenns.

    Regardless of how one feels about Glenn Greenwald, I believe he actually cares about FACTS. On the other hand, Glenn Beck and Glenn Reynolds don’t give a damn about facts. They are simply intellectually bankrupt hucksters.

  52. 52

    It is late, I am drinking shitty beer (Heineken lite) but I am listening to the best music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq1C1g8OQJs

  53. 53
    CT says:

    I will agree with Klein about one thing-GG is (based on his writing) a graceless, humorless dick. I agree with him about a lot, but I can’t stand to read him, so I don’t. Klein would do well to have learned one of the first things I learned back in the bad ol’ days of Usenet-sometimes the dick is absolutely right, and you’re much better off promptly admitting that than trying to pretend otherwise.

  54. 54
    catclub says:

    Torture, electronic eavesdropping, ignoring the constitution,
    those pass by with perhaps an acknowledgment by the great Jokeline.

    But insult the Jokeline and the gloves come off.
    Then Sir, you have gone TOO FAR.

    The Jokeline was called a self-hating Jew by the neocons and he finds some righteous dudgeon to point out their many failings.

    Likewise here. He is a good writer but apparently the only motivation for it is when he is insulted.

    What a waste.

  55. 55
    General Winfield Stuck says:

    Church Lady is a deep cover concern troll that I doubt is either repub or dem, but a solid member of the Church Lady Party whose only platform plank is, “what can they do for me”

  56. 56
    phantomist says:

    jl, This is a widespread syndrome with these people. Is there a clinical diagnosis? Does it have a name?

    Intercranialjournoplasia?

  57. 57
    kay says:

    @CT:

    I’m not supposed to like Glen Greenwald, and, well, I don’t. He (mostly) resists the lure of wanting to be liked. He’s completely comfortable as an outsider, as the opposition, and that’s valuable.

    I read him a lot. I like all the handy links and I learn a lot. That said, he’s just one lawyer, and one lawyer is never the last word, IMO. He’s the best place out there to start, though.

  58. 58
    Arun says:

    GG humorless?

    Perhaps you can’t understand his sarcasm, no more than many conservatives understand Stephen Colbert?

  59. 59
    Mike in NC says:

    It seems we are surrounded by morons, lackeys, dupes, stooges, sycophants, goons, and knaves.

    So you have a beef with the House of Representatives?

    Church Lady is a deep cover concern troll that I doubt is either repub or dem, but a solid member of the Church Lady Party whose only platform plank is, “what can they do for me”

    “Isn’t that special?”

  60. 60
    Church Lady says:

    @tripletee: Good one!

    After reading the “private” emails, I was left wondering who XXXX is. Given the “1.4 billion/day” factoid in one of the emails, I suspect Paul Krugman, given that the exact same figure appeared in his column today. If Klein is a member of Jourolist, it would be reasonable to suppose that Krugman is as well.

  61. 61

    […] Via CPO Sharkey. Posted by Jim Henley @ 11:51 pm, Filed under: Main Comments (0) « « Paging Kevin Carson | Main | […]

  62. 62
    Fleas correct the era says:

    Wow. How embarrassing. I’m assuming he was drunk or something when he wrote that.

    I take it Swampland doesn’t use editors?

  63. 63
    cleek says:

    @CT: agreed.

    i prefer my GG 2nd-hand. he’s a smart guy, i respect his opinions, and i agree with him on most things. but he’s far too excitable and wordy. i like to let someone else wade through his stuff and give me the Reader’s Digest version.

    still, Klein probably picked the wrong guy to take on. Greenwald’s the kind of guy who doesn’t let go once he’s got something he’s interested in; he just bites down harder.

  64. 64
    Sean says:

    If I were to use the criteria set by the cable news shows, I’d have to say that Glenn Greenwald is definitely CUTER than Joe Klein.

    Therefore, Glenn wins.

    Now, back to Morning Joe…

    -Sean

  65. 65
    eastriver says:

    everybody here realizes that Jo-Klo is just pumping up his numbers, right? He’s just looking for a reaction/links so he stays relevant on the tubez.

    He’s getting your goats. Hoping to start a little feud with Glenzilla to boost his eyeballs.

    You are all falling for his marketing ploy. Stop it. Ignore him.

  66. 66
    Maus says:

    “During that time, I have never seen him write a positive sentence about the US military”

    God these neocons are such fucking dimwits, hiding under the skirt of the military STRUCTURE and deflecting all criticisms as “why do you hate our troops”. Fuck you, Klein, and the nothing that you stand for.

  67. 67
    phantomist says:

    I know what all the marketing people are thinking right now too, “Oh, you know what Eastriver doing, he’s going for that anti-marketing dollar. That’s a good market, he’s very smart.”

    Oh man, I am not doing that. You fucking evil scumbags!

    “Ooh, you know what Eastriver doing now, he’s going for the righteous indignation dollar. That’s a big dollar. A lot of people are feeling that indignation. We’ve done research – huge market. He’s doing a good thing.”

    Godammit, I’m not doing that, you scum-bags! Quit putting a godamm dollar sign on every fucking thing on this planet!

    “Ooh, the anger dollar. Huge. Huge in times of recession. Giant market, Eastriver’s very bright to do that.”

    God, I’m just caught in a fucking web.

  68. 68
    Batocchio says:

    Wow. Joe was speaking some sense these past 12 months or so, and occasionally actually being pretty perceptive. But he just can’t get past hippie-punching. That’s just pathetic. Seriously, it reads like a Bush administration press release.

    Klein got called out for being smug and sneering when he didn’t know what the hell he was talking about on an issue of genuine importance – because hippie-punching was more important to his ego and social standing than standing up for core civil rights. And his response is personal attacks – of a really inept nature. It’s just sad.

  69. 69
    mcc says:

    I’ve had some complaints about Greenwald’s behavior in recent months. But if he is enraging Joe Klein [i]this much[/i], then he must be doing something right.

  70. 70
    JSDreyer says:

    @ChurchLady 60.

    As for the $1.4m per day, David Broder pulled that out on Lehrer’s PBS news program last week. So it’s been making the rounds and probably didn’t originate with Krugman.

  71. 71

    @GregB:

    It seems we are surrounded by morons, lackeys, dupes, stooges, sycophants, goons, and knaves.

    We surround them.

  72. 72
    kay says:

    @JSDreyer:

    I think Congress should clear the chamber and we should have a battle of the lobbyists. Health insurance lobbyists vs energy interest lobbyists, representing their respective industries employers on the two big pending pieces of legislation.

    Not a rhetorical battle, either. A brawl. I’d put it on C-Span.

    Congress can cheer for their respective team, from the sidelines. I think health care lobbyists will win, just through sheer mendacity and shamelessness, although energy lobbyists have traditionally had a lot of clout, so may be considered the “favorite”.

  73. 73
    bago says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    You should check out Ulrich Schnauss and The Flashbulb.

    Also, get a good pair of headphones or speakers for the Ulrich Schnauss track. The youtube does the song no justice.

  74. 74
    CT says:

    @cleek: My feelings exactly. Not someone you’d want to get in an internet scuffle with, and if you do, you better pack a lunch and have all your facts straight.

    @Arun: Ummm, sarcasm does not equal humor, in my book.

  75. 75
    sheiler says:

    I’ve had some complaints about Greenwald’s behavior in recent months.

    What behavior?

    What, like GG has left the cap off the toothpaste? Didn’t wash his hands after going to the loo? The only behavior you can possibly find fault with him is on writing, since he’s virtual Glenn Greenwald. But since he makes his living as a writer, you’re finding fault with this?

    I’m sorry for you people who find fault with GG as a writer. You’re probably the same people who have to cover their ears when someone adroitly asks a question to a liar.

  76. 76
    liberal says:

    @Church Lady:

    Things certainly do turn on a dime in these parts.

    It’s called addressing the argument, and not engaging in either the ad hominem or appeal to authority fallacies, you blithering idiot.

  77. 77
    liberal says:

    @CT:

    I will agree with Klein about one thing-GG is (based on his writing) a graceless, humorless dick. I agree with him about a lot, but I can’t stand to read him, so I don’t.

    Good for you /snark

  78. 78
    John Small Berries says:

    @CT: Actually, he comes across to me as a lawyer. (I intend that neither as praise nor as condemnation.)

    I know plenty of attorneys who have great senses of humor, but when they write, their personalities vanish behind an overwhelming textual bludgeon – they present all the (documentable!) facts at their disposal, making the best case they can for their position… often even in non-legal contexts.

  79. 79
    itsbenj says:

    I for one, will vow never to praise Klein when he seems to be getting something right, because by now we all know that he would be doing so for the wrong reasons. As know-nothing as he was about FISA, for example, he is that know-nothing about everything else. So it would be wrong of me to praise him if and when, in his all-encompassing idiocy, he actually gets something right largely by accident. He probably couldn’t back it up any more than any of his other disingenuous diatribes, it just seems like he’d be able to since I would be agreeing already (and probably knowing more on whatever given subject, and assuming he also knew what I know.)

  80. 80
    Tom says:

    Re: Klein vs. Greenwald

    “When the facts are on your side, pound on the facts; when the facts are on the other side, pound on the table.”

    Joe is simply pounding on the table!

  81. 81
    Godwhacker says:

    Glenn Greenwald is the best civil liberties journalist and commentator in the history of modern journalism. Is he an extremist? Well if by that you mean ‘extremely honest’ or ‘extremely principled’ then yes, so be it, and thank god.

  82. 82
    MikeBoyScout says:

    Glenn Greenwald has been the most responsible and fact based reporter on national security and civil rights for over 5 years now. He has also been prolific.

    I am sure there is a lot he has not written. I am sure that some of the sentences he has not published do, in fact, omit praise on purpose.

    But the fact of the matter is that there is far more wrong than right, and far more idiocy on the topic by the likes of Jokeline than the fact based reporting, analysis and opinion given by Glenn.

    That Jokeline wants to make an A__Clown of himself only leads to this conclusion on my part; Jokeline should go back to writing under the pseudonym of “Anonymous” . He’ll embarrass himself less.

  83. 83
    rumpole says:

    Here’s the reality. These a”hats get paid to look smart. But they don’t actually know how to do anything. Jokeline has to read the bills, which exhausts his lips. Greenwald is a former litigator who knows and understands this stuff. What he does–particularly with the habeas and FISA issues– is really, really hard work. Jokeline is simply unqualified to do it, and lacks the bandwidth to figure it out himself. So he just repeats what he’s told and figures that he’s done his job.

    What is so baffling about this is why he doesn’t admit that he was sold a crock of shit by congressional staffers, apologize to his readers “whoops, my bad” and move on. The reason that blogs are popular is that in general, the good ones say “boy I fucked that up. HEre’s why. The bad ones don’t.

    The media has yet to learn that, particularly those of Jokeline or Kurtz’s generation. It’s one of the biggest reasons that they are losing readers.

  84. 84
    corporal waldo says:

    Glenn Greenwald is the best civil liberties journalist and commentator in the history of modern journalism.

    Seconded, without qualification.
    Klein blows goats.

  85. 85
    daveinboca says:

    Godwhacker and corporal wacko:

    You suck sock-puppet cock.

  86. 86
    Althea says:

    Joe Klein is a vile professional character assassin who was sheep-dipped as a liberal when he wrote a biography of Woody Guthrie.

  87. 87
    HyperIon says:

    Today in a WaPo editiorial George Will writes:

    Allen and others of America’s finest are also in Washington’s hands.

    Then he goes on and makes an argument for why the US must get out of Afghanistan NOW.

    See this is how it’s done: First, genuflect towards the troops. THEN get on to preaching “cut and run”. That way, no one will notice that you never presented this idea (which HAS merits) while GWB was in charge.

    And I greatly enjoyed the JokeLine comments.
    Plus, go Aimai.

  88. 88
    HyperIon says:

    from the JL comments, this is rich:

    And there were those who muttered against Klein, for there was discontent in the Land of Bafflegab, and the Centrists were discomforted. And there arose a mighty man of valor, that was named Greenwald. And around him were acolytes, many and pathetic, and they did say many unkind things, even unto publishing alarmingly accurate reports of things said at picnics, which did mightily enrage Klein, so that the blood rushed to his head and the steam out of his ears. And Klein took up his word-processor to smite them. Vast was the word-processor, of sounding brass and luminous silicon, and the length of it was seven bull-sh*ts, and the width of it was three. And the prophet Hoekstra blessed Klein and anointed him with his own manly juicings, and Klein went forth to battle. And as he issued from the Gate of Broder, through which a camel may not fit, the face of Klein was terrible, and his chariots numberless as the secret WMD sites of Iraq. And Klein came down unto the Plain of Fisa, and confronted Greenwald, who was a stripling youth, armed only with a sling…..

  89. 89
    MBunge says:

    “I’m sorry for you people who find fault with GG as a writer.”

    What about the time he threw a hissy fit about the supposed “deal” to call off the MSNBC/FOX war? He went on and on (as he does) about how horrible it was and the terrible implications of such a thing and even essentially called Olbermann a liar when KO said he was never party to such a deal. Yet, as far as I could tell, GG never did a single damn thing to check out the validity of the story before ranting away.

    I like a lot of what GG does, and would like it if he doesn’t go the same way as Somerby and The Daily Howler.

    Mike

  90. 90
    Mnemosyne says:

    I feel about GG the same way I feel about Stanley Kubrick: I can recognize the artistry, but it just doesn’t appeal to me.

    Of course, in this formulation, Joe Klein is Michael Bay.

  91. 91
    Xanthippas says:

    Meh. Greenwald’s OK, but he’s an extremist, albeit one for civil liberties. But navigating in between extremes is what adults do.

    First of all, you should be banned for typing “meh.”

    Secondly, Glenn Greenwald is not an extremist. Don’t confuse tone for position. Greenwald is a rather straight-forward civil libertarian/liberal, who takes a tone of extreme sarcasm when dealing with the targets of his writing. But his arguments are meticulous and thorough, and I would be loathe to pick a fight with him about anything. If Klein feels like he was bullied, it was only because he said something stupid that attracted the ire of his intellectual superior.

  92. 92
    Capn America says:

    Glenn’s not an extremist – he’s not calling for NO government wiretapping or NO government rendition of terrorists, he’s merely asking that when the gov does such things, they get a judge to sign a piece of paper acknowledging it (sometimes months after the fact). Klein, on the other hand, wants to see this little check against big gov done away with.

  93. 93
    Tom G says:

    I’m a libertarian who checks Glenn Greenwald’s column daily and reads each post. He is a great researcher and writer. I frequently cite him when discussing relevant issues with friends, since I nearly always agree with his point of view.
    We need more writers like him.

  94. 94
    Cup O' Joe says:

    If Joke Line is at all upset at any of this, he’s crying all the way to the bank. Because one thing you can be sure of in this country today is that people like him will always get rewarded for the work they do. And that says more about what’s going on here than anything else.

  95. 95
    Mick VV says:

    What’s most sad for me about this little rant is how representative it’s becoming of the establishment press and pundit class. You have Klein here. The staggeringly self-regarding and sneering Dana Milbank with Nico Pitney. And there’s Chuck Todd self-importantly and pettily scolding Jeremy Scahill after the Bill Maher show.

    In ever case, a reporter/analyst acted as though he was addressing, not a colleague, but an inferior. And in every case it was entirely clear that Klein, Milbank, and Todd weren’t only imperiously condescending but were dangerously wrong.

    I mean here they were going after three of the most important reporters currently writing, colleagues doing far more valuable work than they are, work for which they should be deeply appreciative. But instead they can’t seem to see beyond their own reflections.

  96. 96
    mantis says:

    I like a lot of what GG does, and would like it if he doesn’t go the same way as Somerby and The Daily Howler.

    The left needs people like Somerby (and Greenwald). I know people don’t like Bob much because he spends so much time criticizing the left, but the reality is he’s right about the Democrats’ inability to effectively combat the Republicans’ message machine. If he was wrong in his criticisms, health care reform would have already passed. The left is in the best political position it’s been in for 50 years, and we’re pissing it away as quickly as possible.

    If the Democrats were good at this, they would have a mile-long line of uninsured/underinsured Americans telling their health care horror stories. They would never go on TV or step in front of a microphone without telling one of their stories, and do everything they can to get those stories on TV. They would be showing the “happy with our health care” public the face of the real “death panels” that exist today in the health insurance industry. They would unify their message and turn opposing health care reform into wanting your neighbor to die bankrupt if he/she gets sick. They would always emphasize the point that even those “happy with our health care” people could lose their coverage at any time, if they lose their jobs or get sick and the insurance company finds some way to dump them. Look at this person just like you who got screwed by the system. And another one, and another, and another. Look at their poor fucking kids! This is what our health care system does to people. You could be next. And by the way, we spend three times as much on health care as Japan, and they have universal coverage and go to the doctor twice as often as Americans. The Japanese are beating us again!

    Being right, my friends, doesn’t mean you win. Somerby understands this. Yes, too many Americans are confused about health care, don’t pay much attention, or are just downright stupid. We aren’t going to convince them with endless policy details, and we sure as hell aren’t going to do it by calling them stupid. We need to take a page out of the Republicans book and sell fear. Fear of being thrown to the insurance company wolves, fear of losing your home if you get sick. Fear, and proper comparisons people can understand. We need to combat the “big government” argument by pointing to the fire department. We all pay for the fire department that few of us will ever need, and everyone knows the fire department is the government, while inexplicably few seem to know that Medicare is. Every time someone decries “big government,” which they’ve been doing quite effectively, the answer must be “why do you hate the fire department?” or “should the government leave fire protection to private industry?” Hammer the point that opposing health care reform is the same thing as opposing fire protection, and that getting sick in this country has too often become equivalent to your house catching fire, and the trucks aren’t on their way.

    Wait, this thread is about Joke Line? What a hack. Good job, Glenn, but sadly exposing him ain’t gonna change a thing.

  97. 97
    sherifffruitfly says:

    Root of it all: Idiots had being called idiots more than anything else in the world, but not enough to stop being idiots.

  98. 98
    JL says:

    “…I nearly always agree with [Glenzilla’s] point of view”.

    Well, Tom G., that makes you little better than one of Limbaugh’s ditto-heads.

    How do I know this?

    Because Klein said so, that’s how.

    Take that!

  99. 99

    @jl:

    Greenwald pointed out that Klein admitted he did not know anything about FISA, and Klein still felt entitled to issue grave, judicious pundit wiseman (or maybe, wiseguy) judgment on it that everyone should take very seriously.

    You may be on to something here with your “wiseguy” comment. Joe Klein acts like the media is the mafia and he is a made man.

  100. 100
    GREYDOG says:

    Glennzilla RULES!!!

  101. 101
    tom tom says:

    Brilliant.

  102. 102
    The Fool says:

    What pisses Klein off is that he sold out a long time ago and it angers him that there are some who refuse to do the same. Klein has been initmidated into fellating the military and centrists and any other sacred cow that his overlords tell him to bow down to in return for a great MSM job. Deep inside he knows he is a sold out weasel and it just kills him that Glenzilla found a way to have a great job WITHOUT selling out. Weasels like Klein think everyone should have to sell out just like they did.

  103. 103
    Neo says:

    Quick, some body call Joe Klein a whamabulance.

  104. 104
    CT says:

    @John Small Berries:

    Yeah-you nailed it, absolutely.

    @liberal:

    Not trying seek any plaudits for the fact that I don’t follow Greenwald’s blog anymore, I just find it strange when folks obsessively watch/read someone they claim to be repulsed by-call it Scarborough Syndrome, where inanities by Joe and crew are outnumbered by breathless Kos diarists rushing to post their scoop of how Joe and Mika were dumb AGAIN today.

  105. 105
    Steeplejack says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Awesome. I hate Michael Bay with a white-hot heat.

  106. 106

    […] John Cole weighs in…Oh, look, Tom MacGuire has a funny headline: Please, Not In Front Of The Kids (Or The Sockpuppets… Or The Editors). Oh, and look, the Warren Zevon Tribute Blog says…whoa, it was JournoList stuff Greenwald leaked? I thought it was just personal emails. […]

  107. 107

    “For the past several years, Greenwald has conducted a persistent, malicious campaign to distort who I am and where I stand.”

    Klein is perfectly capable of distorting who he is and where he stands without any help from GG, thank you very much.

    Just watch for changes in the way the wind blows….

  108. 108
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    If the Democrats were good at this, they would have a mile-long line of uninsured/underinsured Americans telling their health care horror stories.

    But that’s what Michael Moore did, and he’s fat! Also, Sanjay Gupta thinks he’s uncouth.

  109. 109
    DJD says:

    @Xanthippas:

    Klein has a point about their spat over Anbar, though. Greenwald really savaged him, saying that he was being deliberately gullible and just parroting government propaganda, and strongly implying that everything Klein had written was inaccurate. It wasn’t, though: it turns out Anbar really was undergoing a dramatic improvement at that time.

    Greenwald’s attack piece was complete speculation, but nowhere does he acknowledge the possibility that his guesswork may be wrong. He’s plenty entertaining, and I agree with probably 99% of what he writes, but he badly lacks self-awareness about his own limitations. I think that’s what gets him slapped with the “extremist” label, when his political views aren’t actually that extreme.

  110. 110
    Dave von Ebers says:

    “[I]n a world where terrorists have the capability to attack us at any time, in almost any place. …”

    Really? Then why did it take al Qaeda more than eight years (from February 1993 to September 2001) to hit the World Trade Center a second time? Yet, clinging this notion – that “terrorists” can magically appear and disappear, can inflict untold harm anywhere they chose, any time they chose, with mythical weapons of mass destruction, and that only Bush’s and Cheney’s utter disregard of the Constitution, federal law and international law prevented the shape-shifting bastards from hitting us again! – clinging to this notion is the only way the rightwing humps can get any sleep at night. Otherwise, the truth is to horrible to admit.

  111. 111
    tenkindsagrumpy says:

    Barry said,”extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.” superlative post,outrageously good, I wish I’d said that, comments. Oh yes, I called 911 and requested the whambulance.

  112. 112
    Marcel Kincaid says:

    Meh. Greenwald’s OK, but he’s an extremist, albeit one for civil liberties. But navigating in between extremes is what adults do.

    What does that make someone like you who has foundered on the shoals of extreme stupidity and extreme intellectual dishonesty?

    Greenwald is extremely careful, extremely accurate, and extremely ethical. What a child.

  113. 113
    Marcel Kincaid says:

    pot: [the kettle] badly lacks self-awareness about his own limitations

  114. 114
    Marcel Kincaid says:

    I just find it strange when folks obsessively watch/read someone they claim to be repulsed by-call it Scarborough Syndrome, where inanities by Joe and crew are outnumbered by breathless Kos diarists rushing to post their scoop of how Joe and Mika were dumb AGAIN today.

    It’s called “know thy enemy”, moron.

  115. 115
    Lev says:

    DJD:

    He was right about Anbar? Check out the references to Anbar this week here:

    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/962/re61.htm

    http://www.google.com/hostedne.....wD9ADCB400

    http://www.miamiherald.com/new.....99898.html

    And remember this is the least populated desert province in Iraq. Is Joke Line insane?

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