Apparently Goldfarb has the day off, so it is Matt Continetti’s turn to attempt to rebut Klein’s latest piece that DougJ linked to:
I don’t know whether Joe Klein believes Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin is a “nihilist” and a “hypocrite” engaged in a “disinformation jihad” aimed at persuading the “tight, white, extremist bubble” that is the GOP to defeat ObamaCare. Still, it might have been a good idea for Klein to have read Ryan’s health care reform plan, or the Republican Study Committee proposal, or Michele Bachmann’s Health Care Freedom of Choice Act, or the many ideas included in Yuval Levin’s latest editorial in THE WEEKLY STANDARD, before he wrote in his new column that “There is no Republican health-care alternative in 2009.”
Paul Ryan was one of the very serious people who introduced a budget alternative in which they had no numbers and could not tell you how big their deficit would be. Michele Bachman has spent the last moth screaming about death panels and Ezekiel Emmanuel and the pink lizards crawling on her feet. Ok, maybe I made that up about the pink lizards. The third option- a Weekly Standard editorial that called for deregulation of the insurance industry. Because we’ve never heard that before.
Meanwhile, here is the response at Clown Hall:
I’m sorry about your Dad, Klein, but this isn’t the time to judge others for their disgust in Big Brother making decisions about life and death.
Still lying about the provision.
I’d say Klein has these guys dead to rights.
jwb
John, you know the site is having wordpress errors right and left again, don’t you?
DBrown
I’m sure that John can’t even get on.
Jen R
I like the tags, but they’re not quite as snappy as “Hoot-Smalley” or “Burkean Bells”.
Bill H
Michele Bachmann does not scream about anything. She speaks in a calm and rational voice about totally irrational and batshit crazy things.
Cain
@Bill H:
Michele Bachmann does not scream about anything. She speaks in a calm and rational voice about totally irrational and batshit crazy things.
But boy when she turns on the insane, she is so hot. Heh.
cain
me
I’m sorry, Paul Ryan is my congressman.
Zifnab
You don’t? Perhaps you should maybe figure that out then. It seems somewhat key to the conversation.
Seriously, we could make Encyclopedias out of the things some pundits proudly proclaim they don’t know.
Perhaps Continetti might bother to read through the bills he mentions and tell us how, exactly, they present a GOP health care alternative. Rather than doing a drive-by “Oh yeah!” and scooting out the back door before people have time to ask what the hell he’s talking about.
lawnorder
Tags look weird
Who is this new Joe Klein and what have they done with the old GOP hack ?
The Grand Panjandrum
@Zifnab:
But are they known unkowns, or unknown unknowns? Or, are they just too fucking lazy to look up the facts? I know which horse I’m putting my money on.
Kennedy
lol @ suggesting someone read anything authored by Bachmann as a very serious solution or alternative.
Also, Bachmann can write?
catclub
Another comment from Clownhall:
>>>
Buddha writes: Thursday, August, 20, 2009 11:47 AM
DEATH PANELS
Joe Klein is a perfect example of the post-modern, post-Christian liberal; searching for meaning in all the wrong places. His apprent indifference to his father’s plight, and his willingness to entrust (or is it a demand the State take?) his distressed father to the State’s dispassionate stranger for solace, speaks volumns about sterile, depressing world where the left is taking us.
>>>
I fear this person is not joking, not even about Joke Line.
I can only hope he read a completely different article.
MobiusKlein
Reminds me of the Christian nihilists working to speed the rapture along.
Comrade javafascist
So Clown Hall is against the death penalty?
Joe Lisboa
@ catclub: Uh, Jewish is now post-Christian? That’s some seriously fucked chronology right there. Also: insane.
Sirkowski
I saw ‘Michele Bachmann’ and stopped reading.
Bruce (formerly Steve S.)
“Nihilists” was a ridiculous comment, as were his brainless generalizations in the rest of the piece. Klein is trying to position himself as the sensible moderate but instead just says a whole bunch of nothing and ends up pissing off everybody.
Obama is not a socialist-fascist. The Republicans are not nihilists, even though their health reform proposals are laughable.
Bulworth
OK I’ll bite: What are Ryan’s shitty health care “reform” plans? Health Care Savings Accounts and Tort “reform”?
Da Bomb
Pink Lizards? I could believe turds…
Pink lizards would imply she’s on meth or acid, but since I believe that the broad is stone batshit crazy, I would have to go with turds. She always seems to be perpetually stepping in a pile of her shit.
T. O'Hara
Still avoiding any talk about rationing, and pretending the only issue is end-of-life care. Who’s lying?
JWeidner
JWeidner
damnit….tag-fail.
“I’m sorry about your Dad, Klein, but this isn’t the time to judge others for their disgust in Big Brother making decisions about life and death.”
Clearly, a minimally-paid health insurance company adjuster is far more qualified to make those decisions.
Comrade Doctor General Michael Brown
Republicans are nihilist hypocrites lying about health care. In other Joke Line news: Rice is often white.
As I said in the other thread: Taibbi has both Klein and InContinetti dead to rights. The facts about the Republican “plans” just demonstrate all the more how deeply fake this whole controversy really is.
Zifnab
Universal Health Care killed my father!
And raped my mother!
Zuzu's Petals
At least he admits that Republican policy = Weekly Standard. And vice versa.
Notorious P.A.T.
“disgust in Big Brother making decisions about life and death”
Government officials making health care decisions is bad, but insurance company officials making decisions about health care is good, because you can vote out government officials, but. . . uhhh, look, immigrants! ! !1 !
John Cole
@T. O’Hara: What are you even talking about? They are clearly lying about the end of life discussions, and for whatever reason, you are incapable of admitting they are lying. And even better, you then shift the topic to rationing, something not even being discussed, and make accusations that people are lying.
But you want to talk about rationing, then fine. What kind of rationing do you want to talk about? The fact that even with a great health care plan, you can’t go to a foot doctor or dermatologist without first being seen by another doctor first, or the insurance company will not pay for it? That kind of rationing?
Or do you mean the kind of rationing where if you have diabetes or asthma you simply can not get insurance coverage at all? That kind of rationing?
Or the kind of rationing where the insurance company you have paid premiums to for 35 years refuses a medical treatment that will save your life because it is “experimental.” That kind of rationing?
Or the kind of rationing that unless you are in a group insurance plan from your employer, you simply can not afford health insurance at all, so when you get a cold working doubleshifts at minimum wage you don’t go to the doctor until it gets to the point where you are near death with pneumonia and have to go to the emergency room, run up thousands in medical bills that you can never, ever pay off, and have your credit rating screwed forever. That kind of rationing.
Or the kind of rationing that you walk around with eight sore teeth because you can not afford to go to a dentist, and then you finally go to the university dental clinic and they end up pulling all your teeth because you waited so long. That kind of rationing?
Or the kind of rationing where your mastectomy is denied because they went through your previous medical history and you failed to once note that you had a yeast infection, so they drop your coverage. That kind of rationing?
Get out of here, you idiot. Discussing end of life care is not about rationing, and you aren’t even remotely prepared to have a discussion about rationing.
TheWatcher
Shorter Matt Continetti:
“Nihilists! F@ck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.”
Indylib
@me:
Mine, too. Sucks, huh?
Mary
@John Cole: slow clap. John Cole, I am in awe. Fantastic rant.
The Saff
@John Cole: A few years back, I had PRK surgery on my eyeballs so I could get rid of contact lenses and glasses that I had worn for 27 years. But, because such surgery is considered “cosmetic” by my eye care provider, which is pretty sucky anyhow, I had to pay the $3,600 myself. I knew insurance wouldn’t cover it so I planned accordingly and had the money in hand before I scheduled the surgery.
To this day, I marvel at being able to see without glasses or contacts; it’s SO awesome to be able to see the clock during the night without having to get an inch in front of it. Just the same, I’m not sure why PRK is considered cosmetic when my quality of life is so much better than it was before I had the surgery. I know it wasn’t necessary to save my life but I still pay my premium every month to have eye insurance.
TheWatcher
Longer Matt Continetti:
[the Dude, Walter, and Donny walk out of the bowling alley, to find the three Nihilists waiting in front of the Dude’s car, which has been torched]
The Dude: Well, they finally did it. They killed my f$#@! car.
Nihilist: Ve vant ze money, Lebowski.
Nihilist #2: Ja, uzzervize ve kill ze girl.
Nihilist #3: Ja, it seems you have forgotten our little deal, Lebowski.
The Dude: You don’t HAVE the f$#@! girl, dips%$#@! We know you never did!
[the Nihilists, stunned, confer amongst themselves in German]
Donny: Are these the Nazis, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there’s nothing to be afraid of.
Nihilist: Ve don’t care. Ve still vant ze money, Lebowski, or ve f$#@! you up.
Walter Sobchak: f$#@! you. f$#@! the three of you.
The Dude: Hey, cool it Walter.
Walter Sobchak: No, without a hostage, there is no ransom. That’s what ransom is. Those are the f$#@! rules.
Nihilist #2: His girlfriend gave up her toe!
Nihilist #3: She though we’d be getting million dollars!
Nihilist #2: Iss not fair!
Walter Sobchak: Fair! WHO’S THE f$#@! NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF f$#@! CRYBABIES?
The Dude: Hey, cool it Walter. Look, pal, there never was any money. The big Lebowski gave me an empty briefcase, so take it up with him, man.
Walter Sobchak: And, I would like my undies back.
[Stunned, the Germans confer amongst themselves again]
Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
Nihilist: Okay. So we take ze money you haf on you, und ve calls it eefen.
Walter Sobchak: f$#@! you.
Martian Buddy
I’m reminded of a comment I saw over on Kos. To paraphrase: “The purpose of a minority party is to keep the majority party honest. By filling the debate with lies and proposing ‘alternative plans’ that they have no actual interest in seeing passed merely to muddy the waters, the Republicans are failing miserable at being the loyal opposition.
So, yes, nihilism–principle is not at work here, only the naked desire to hand the other side a loss regardless of what it might cost the public.
shep
Meanwhile, Klein is placing the blame for “conservative” lies about a “government takeover” of health care on…wait for it…liberals:
I’m calling it Pathological Centrism.
lawnorder
I hate to go all Fukuyama but I think we are witnessing “The End of History” here. Communism, Socialism, Fascism and all the historical stuff is now putty on the hands of politicians, that use it to tar whatever thing they don’t want.
UGH
Martian Buddy
@Notorious P.A.T.: When I read Mackey’s screed about health care reform, this bit stood out:
T. O'Hara
Shift the topic? Here’s some history for you guys. Way back when, some lady named Palin wrote a facebook page about rationing:
You might notice that the subject is rationing, not end-of-life counseling. President Obama held a town meeting, and pretended the subject was end-of-life counseling:
Then Ms Palin wrote a second facebook page, discussing the president’s comments:
She then discussed end-of-life counseling, which she also didn’t like. And now every time somebody quotes Palin’s “death panels” remark, they pretend the subject is end-of-life counseling. It isn’t.
John Cole
@T. O’Hara: There is not one provision in any of the bills in the House or Senate in which determinations will be made about whether or not someone receives treatment based on their “level of productivity.” Not one. And the Death Panels stuff was a complete fiction, and the end of life counseling provision was killed because of the deceitful rhetoric calling that death panels.
Christ, you are as wingnutty as the lunatic law prof from Cornell. I’m done wasting my time with you.
Yossarian
To say nothing of the fact that since there is no “government health care system” being proposed, I’m not sure how it is going to ration care. Under every proposal seriously being discussed, insurance remains private, but the industry is regulated more strongly and subsidies to purchase private insurance are provided to those who cannot afford it. So to worry about a “government health care system” ultimately “rationing care” is sort of like worrying that the U.S. Mint may abolish the quarter because the Tooth Fairy that is going to take over the currency supply prefers to use dimes.
T. O'Hara
She didn’t say there was. She said the economics of the bill would eventually force rationing, which would eventually lead to the government making life-or-death decisions. Instead of answering her, the president deflected the conversation to an unrelated provision, and all his supporters accuse her of lying about end-of-life counseling. She didn’t, and there’s still more name-calling than answering.
Hunter Gathers
We already have rationing.
We already have ‘death panels’.
It’s when the insurance company takes your money and then promptly tells you to piss off.
Shorter Insurance Industry – Fuck you, pay me.
catclub
Well, clearly, if someone quotes THOMAS SOWELL on what government health care will do, they must be correct.
Anything else would be unpossible.
Anne Laurie
Another lie! Michele Bachman fears no pink lizards (only the brown, illegal-immigrant, welfare-sucking ones)! Bachman was screaming about the pink lesbians she believes are crawling around the legislature, demanding health care panels to declare in favor of their Biblically-unsanctioned “marriages”, even though failure-to-be-decently-heterosexual is clearly a pre-existing condition!…
Much as I appreciated your rant, John, my contract demands that I remind you feeding the trolls is pointless and unsanitary. (I mean, this particular blogfungus pretends that Palin “wrote” her own Facebook posts, despite the lack of gross grammatical errors.) Remember the lurking danger of troll latrines!
binzinerator
Matt In-Continetti, I’d say.
Seems he can’t help it when he shits all over himself.
Zuzu's Petals
The amazing thing about the Clown Hall comments – well, the wingnut reaction generally – is that they totally ignore the fact that your living will can specify that you want EVERYTHING done to preserve your life.
In fact, that’s spelled out in the bill (p. 430).
Wouldn’t you want your family/doctor/EMT to know that before they’re discussing it over your unconscious body?
lawnorder
She didn’t say there was. She said the economics of the bill would eventually force rationing, which would eventually lead to the government making life-or-death decisions
And we are obligated to take her future predictions seriously why ? Because she can see Russia from Alaska ? Because she can skin a moose ?
This woman can barely speak coherently. She know nothing of economics or health care. If she says Santa Claus is moving to Rio to form a rock band, do I have to get a music expert to rebuke her too ?
T. O'Hara
Shorter government: “we’ll run this thing just like the Post Office.” The survey says:
Tax Analyst
@ #26 – John Cole –
Bravo!! That “T. O’Hara” clown was really beginning to stick in my craw. I had resisted feeding him (or her) because his remarks we’re so full of vague, lying, snotty double-speak and his responses were but more of the same.
lawnorder
@Zuzu: Clown Halls, Town Howls,
Clown Howls
Leo
@T. O’Hara: Did you read her defense of the “death panels” remark. It was entirely based on the “end-of-life counseling” provision. It was in no way based on the idea that “the economics of the bill would eventually force rationing.”
So your statement is incorrect.
Also, are you aware that there are also “economics” of the current system, and those “economics” are forcing rationing right now? I realize I’m like the eleventh person to point that out in this thread, but I figured I might as well keep saying it until you come up with some kind of response.
Martian Buddy
Oh, well if Palin says it, then she must be correct–it’s not like our system is the costliest in the world despite being #37 in performance and #72 in overall level of health. Oh, wait, it is like that. Somehow the socialist hellholes like France (#1,) Japan (#10,) and even the UK’s much-derided NHS (#18) are all out ahead of us in performance despite paying less per capita. It’s almost like this business about government always being worse than the free market is a right-wing canard or something.
Leo
My attempted link failed, but here is the address of Palin’s defense:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=116471698434
T. O'Hara
Then maybe you should use your considerable intellect to demolish her arguments. On the subject of cost savings, she has a point: CBO Sees No Net Federal Cost Savings in Dem Health Plans. And the CBO has more bad news for those who claim preventative medicine will save money:
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@T. O’Hara:
Which Post Office is that? The one which delivers reasonably high quality service to all Americans, even the ones who live in remote rural areas where FedX and UPS won’t go (try shipping to a P.O. Box), and does so at lower cost than the commercial carriers, while supporting a much larger volume of traffic than the latter? As compared with the commerical freight carriers who charge an arm and a leg for top tier delivery but suck at doing the boring ordinary residential delivery?
So in this analogy, if the private health insurers are like FedX and UPS, and govt. healthcare is like the US Postal Service, that would mean that instead of paying an arm-and-a-leg for gold plated care that only the wealthy can afford, instead all Americans would get…
Epic analogy fail.
We should be so lucky as to have a health insurance system which worked as well for all of us as the US Postal Service does. And those circa 1977 wingnut talking points are way past their sell-by-date.
arguingwithsignposts
Notice that T’Ohara didn’t say the gov’t running health care as well as, say, the government runs healthcare (medicare with 24 percent less bureaucratic overhead.
analogy fail.
lawnorder
@T. O’Hara: On rationing she has none, as several other posters already said. We are being rationed right now. “Out of Network” is rationing.
On costs, the CBO report says it will decrease costs, with some exceptions.
Tell me again why do I have to listen to the insane future predictions of someone who thinks the earth is 6,000 years old and doesn’t believe in global warming.
Hey I foresee a Brad Pitt for every lonely housewife, and a Pamela Anderson for every lonely working men, if healthcare passes. Why don’t you debate my predictions Obama ?!?!?
JK
Hall monitor and insufferable douchebag Matt Continetti is currently working on a book titled “The Persecution of Sarah Palin”
Mike in NC
Troll O’Hara learns everything it needs to know from reading Sarah Palin’s posts to Facebook? Seriously? The stupidity there is mind-boggling.
Blough Mee (China)
@JK:
Yeah- “Mathew” aka “Matt” Continetti… a 20-something nerd-faced puke pseudo-conservative douchebag (and closet flaming homo prick IMO… my GayDar says “Fag” all the way with this little cutie….) who hasn’t lived long enough to begin to understand the drivel he preaches. This is the kind of skinny-assed jerk-off you’d just want to pound the living shit out of if you met up with him on the beach. No doubt was an obnoxious know-it-all 9 year old momma’s boy at the spelling bee 15 yrs ago too… FUCK HIM.