This would shock me:
Pentagon health experts are urging Defense Secretary Robert Gates to ban the use of tobacco by troops and end its sale on military property, a change that could dramatically alter a culture intertwined with smoking.
Jack Smith, head of the Pentagon’s office of clinical and program policy, says he will recommend that Gates adopt proposals by a federal study that cites rising tobacco use and higher costs for the Pentagon and Department of Veterans Affairs as reasons for the ban.
The study by the Institute of Medicine, requested by the VA and Pentagon, calls for a phased-in ban over a period of years, perhaps up to 20. “We’ll certainly be taking that recommendation forward,” Smith says.
A tobacco ban would confront a military culture, the report says, in which “the image of the battle-weary soldier in fatigues and helmet, fighting for his country, has frequently included his lit cigarette.”
If I had to guess, we will see the end of DADT and homosexuals will be openly serving in the miltary before a tobacco ban.
Comrade Stuck
Banning “smoke ’em if you got ’em” would be like banning SOS. Shat on a Shingle. They’d as likely ban farting/
linda
good luck with that … just like banning porn on military bases:
Soldiers Say Porn Ban May Hurt Morale
Stars and Stripes | Seth Robson | May 05, 2008
GRAFENWOHR, Germany — Legislation that would restrict the sale of certain men’s magazines on U.S. military bases around the world would be bad for morale, according to soldiers at Grafenwöhr.
and just for the record … chewing tobacco is one of the nastiest, most disgusting habits any man can adopt.
bago
My brother.
Ted
Telling guys who have to deal with bullets, IEDs and RPGs all day long they can’t smoke. Seems like a d*ck thing to do…
But the military does consider soldiers property.
John Harrold
Personally, I don’t smoke or chew tobacco products, and I generally find both to be disgusting (though I think pipe and cigar smoke can smell good). These guys are adults who are putting their lives on the line. If they want to smoke, I say sure go ahead.
For those who are in favor of a single payer system, are they OK with having their favorite vices taken from them when it’s determined by the government that those vices cost too much in health care?
gbear
OT (but health related), but Dennis Kucinich absolutely reams reams reams a guy who wrote a book called The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Healthcare. Just a thing of beauty.
A Mom Anon
@John Harrold:
It’s more likely that a person wouldn’t get full coverage (which happens now,btw) than the banning of vices. OR,maybe the system would pay or partly pay for incentives like nicotine patches for smokers, a membership at the Y for someone who wanted to lose weight(which DOES help with high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes),rehab for addicts(rather than punishing people,which seems to be our method of dealing with that here in the US)and so forth.
A Mom Anon
@gbear:
Tee to the Hee,that was good. I love that little Peace Elf sometimes.
Poopyman
Another OT, so I’ll be quick.
Check out Google for their nod to Nikola Tesla’s birthday.
One of my best jobs was working summers at Buhl Planetarium and firing off the 1 million volt Tesla coil. Ah, those were the days…..
HRA
Waiting for August 1 here on the campus when by decree of Paterson and the president of the U smoking will be banned. It will be interesting to see how it will either work or not work for the campus is quite large acreage wise and who will enforce it when there is definitely not enough campus police to cover two campuses. Will they ban those living in the private apartments on campus as well? Are we going to have hordes of students going into the outlying forests?
dan robinson
I remember the small cig packs in a C-rat box.
I’m assuming that the current generation of military rations do not include cigs. When did that change happen?
linda
@gbear:
oh man… that was a beaut… and that little fucktard from the manhattan institute was one smug little prince, wasn’t he.
no wonder the wdc magpies go out of their way to diminish and mock kucinich. he’d be one of the most popular politicians in the country if there was an honest portrayal of him.
Krissed Off
Could the Pentagram ban wanking, too? I really hates the 2nd hand smelz/
The Grand Panjandrum
I don’t know John. I remember when Congress raised the drinking age to 21 and Reagan signed the bill. I was long gone from the Army by then but I was convinced a military coup would take place. So what happened? Nothing … bubkas … nada … crickets… Regulations have been altered a bit to accomodate the younger crowd for special circumstances. Now a young buck can’t get a drink on most US military reservations! You can get your young ass shot off but you can’t raise a glass to salute it. That is a crime against nature and proof, in my mind at least, that Reagan never really gave a shit about the poor slobs down in the foxholes.
geg6
@Poopyman:
Dude! Buhl Planetarium? I loved that place as a kid!
The Carnegie Science Center just doesn’t have the same ooomph for me. Too little sense of history. But the kids seems to like it.
As for the armed services banning smoking? Bwahahahahaha! Guess they are in the mood for a mutiny.
Completely OT, but maybe not. I spent part of my work day yesterday doing my first enrollment certifications for my veteran students who will be the first recipients of the new Post-9/11 MGIB educational benefits and the Yellow Ribbon Program. Finally, finally, finally these men and women are getting a small measure of what they deserve for their service. At my second-most-expensive-public-university-in-the-nation, in-state vets who served 36 months active duty (regular military or reserves) get 100% of tuition/fees, $1000 for books, and a living allowance of $1400 a month and can also receive any other student aid for which they qualify. Out-of-state vets will have the tuition differential covered by the Yellow Ribbon Program. It is truly awesome for them and I am proud to be a small part of helping to make this happen for them.
John Harrold
@A Mom Anon:
Right now some of the least healthy folks in the US are the un- or under-insured. It’s my understanding that one of the main purposes of a single payer system is to provide for these people. So we’re going to create a single payer system for them, and then tell them to change their lifestyle or else they’re going to be in the same position they’re in now? Would individuals who refuse to change their lifestyle be refused service when they go to a hospital with a stroke even though they have been paying taxes just like everyone else?
If changing their lifestyle were that easy, they could make those changes right now (decrease their body weight, quit smoking, reduce alcohol consumption, etc.) and reduce many of the consequences of not having insurance.
gnomedad
@geg6:
Is this an Obama initiative?
JonathanW
@gnomedad:
The new GI Bill was spearheaded by Webb and passed last summer.
george
I personally know that the USAF already bans smoking for any individual in a “training status.” This includes basic training, vocational training, and any and all up-grade training.
gbear
@gbear:
Very late edit: The Kucinich video @6 comes from C&L. They also have a link to the entire testimony.
John Cole
@george: You couldn’t smoke in Army basic twenty years ago.
Punchy
So when they said they were banning fags, they REALLY meant it!
geg6
@gnomedad:
Jonathan W is correct. Jim Webb was the face and voice of the legislation. It is truly a beautiful thing. I wrote so many emails to congresscritters for this. It makes me so happy to finally see the new Chapter 33 in practice.
The old Chapters 30 (regular military), 1607 (reserves and NG with active duty), and 1606 (reserves) were completely and criminally inadequate. Top rate for Chapter 30 was $1300/mo., Chapter 1607 $900/mo., and Chapter 1606 $300/mo. No paid tuition/fees or book allowance. I have so many ex-students who were vets who are massively in student loan debt. Our tuition and fees for a year are almost $13,000 for PA residents. So this allows them to go to school full-time and still be able to survive. I’m thrilled to death because I think these guys have gotten such a raw deal.
A Mom Anon
@John Harrold:
Have you ever dealt with addiction on your own? You’re right,making changes is really difficult and it’s even more difficult when you don’t have any sort of means at your disposal. That has to be addressed somehow or nothing will ever get better. If we can afford wars and bailouts and the like,there’s no reason we couldn’t take at least some of those funds and divert them into health care. That honestly should be a fundamental American right,not a privledge.
I probably didn’t articulate this very well above,so I’ll try again.
Banning the vices isn’t going to work,but given our goofy ass history in this country,it would not surprise me if that was floated as being part of the new plan. I doubt that will fly though,but hell,I wouldn’t put anything past the powers that be at this point. I’m more for giving people the help and support mechanisms they need to make the improvements. Yes it will cost more in the beginning,investing in big stuff like our citizens or infrastructure or education always does. The idea is that the costs go down over time and then the payoff comes,and not every payoff is financial. Sure,not everyone will make the improvements,but,I think if you provide support and make it so people aren’t scared shitless of the cost,alot more people will opt to do better. And,the more people who end up successful,the more other people will see that and join in.
The Grand Panjandrum
@John Cole: Really? I got me some new knowledge today. Dayam …
lotus
While we’re on the military . . .
Yoohoo, Sec. Napolitano, check out Stars and Stripes today!
Krissed Off
Smokers die early. They subsidize geezercare. So why suppress that magic moment of starburst pleasure when you can spark a Redroof in the teeth of the Taliban?
Comrade Stuck
Thirty years ago, they would say OK 5 minute smoke break, then soon as you lit up, it would be put em out ladies. Cruel bastards.
Tsulagi
With the JCS dressed to fit in waving from a float during gay pride week in SF.
Maybe Obama could use it as leverage: “What’s it gonna be, cigs AND gays, or neither?”
Rook
@Tsulagi: I’m with you, I think we’re seeing a negotiation ploy in action.
gopher2b
Let the military vote on it – one or the other. Gays would be in by Monday.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
On something of a tangent– I’ve heard nicotine referred to as “the soldier’s drug.”
When you’re nervous, frightened, uptight– smoking a cigarette helps calm the jitters.
When you’re up all night at a listening post, and you DARE NOT fall asleep or lose concentration– a cigarette can help you remain alert.
I don’t know, I’ve neither smoked nor served; but that makes sense to me.
inkadu
@Poopyman:
Tesla is awesome. I know very little about him, but from what I know he was a big dreamer that makes you realize that science was pushing so many frontiers at his time that the difference between physics and metaphysics was not at all clear. I also loved Tesla in that movie… drat… he was played by David Bowie and it starred Batman and Wolverine… Anyway, I look forward to see more of him in Leage-of-Extraordinary-Gentleman type fiction.
@gbear: Bwahaha! That was like seeing a spoiled brat get sent to the principal’s office. You can read more about Gratzer’s career in lies, statistics and propaganda at his wikipedia page:
Good stuff.
inkadu
What will GI’s trade with the locals now? Military-civilian relationships are built with a foundation of Marlboro cartons.
Poopyman
geg6:
Looky what I found. Nothing on the Tesla coil (that was a short, simple script), but should bring back some memories for Buhl fans.
majkia
You’ve got to be kidding me. I’m a retired military officer and live in a military town. The image of the butt smoking (not poking) military is nonsense. Most military members I know do not smoke. Even us old farts mostly don’t.
misc
I didn’t start smoking until I was 22 and on deployment in the Army.
John Harrold
@A Mom Anon:
I don’t know if you would call it an addiction, but I did manage to loose about 85 lbs over a period of time. I did this while I was in graduate school. I had been obese for most of my life at that point, and many people close to me had told me I needed to loose weight. Ultimately I did so not because of what was available to me, but because of my concern for the long term health effects. It was actually cheaper for me to loose weight than my nominal lifestyle both in terms of time and money.
I personally have no problem with, say taxing tobacco to fund treatment for those who seek it. Providing incentives is fine, and it’s good for those who take it. I’m sure it would help those on the margins that just need a little push.
I’ve had a few friends who were quite self destructive (I’m not quite sure what that says about being my friend) that had really good support structures in terms of family and finances, but ultimately most didn’t take advantage of these. Those that did change did so because they wanted to change their life, not because exogenous factor.
I suppose my point is that it’s almost impossible to force people to change, and there is always going to be a significant fraction of the population that’s going to choose the short term over the long term (like the soldiers smoking in the original article). When the government is paying for your health care, they have a financial interest in curbing this behavior. And unless actions are taken to curb this behavior (outlawing transfats, or refusing medical care for those with certain habits) the cohort willing to take advantage of the system by not changing their behavior will continue to be substantial.
It’s my observation that this subset of the population tends to belong to the same group a single payer system is supposed to help.
Justin
I get that smoking is harmful to your body. But you know what else is harmful, GOING TO FUCKING WAR!
Just let them smoke.
geg6
@Poopyman:
That is so awesome. Damn. That brings me so much back to my youth. I loved that place.
Comrade Dread
Can we file this under life imitates MASH and Catch-22?
Officer: Now, soldier, when you’re out there, in the middle of Basra, patrolling through homemade bombs and surrounded by hundreds of people who are all dressed like civilians, most of whom are armed with weapons that could cut through your body armor pretty easily, and half of whom would not think twice about shooting at you as representative of America, remember that you can’t smoke because that shit will kill you.
A Mom Anon
@John Harrold:
Honestly,I don’t think we disagree much here.
I had a drug problem in my misspent youth. Getting any sort of rehab wasn’t an option. Money and a long ass waiting list for low cost rehab made that impossible(in some poorer communities,if there is rehab,the waiting list can be literally years). What I was able to do was get into a low cost therapy program that gave me an understanding of why I turned to drugs in the first place and then ways to fight those demons instead of giving in. It was the hardest thing I ever went through,and I relapsed more than once.Shortly after I completed the program,funding was pulled. The thing is,this approach had a pretty good outcome and it wasn’t expensive compared to in patient facilities.
I think,and this is my own wild ass guess on this one,that people who do not want to change won’t seek help,sign up for programs and for whatever reasons continue to destroy themselves.They will stay out of the system by their own choice. So,what society will end up with is dealing with end of life care in the ER(and even this may not happen,as people will simply OD or die of complications of addiction without seeking medical attention),and having some sort of help available for the family left behind. There are ways of dealing with both of these that aren’t as expensive as it is now. If overall costs of care come down,ER care won’t be as insane as it is now. Helping families recover from the ravages of having an addict in the family really requires time and emotional support more than anything else. Lots of guilt and anger left untreated leads to more addiction,especially in kids,investing in that can help break the cycle.
buggy ding dong
I’m anti-smoking, but if those guys and gals want to light up, more power to them.
There is no way in hell this goes anywhere.
SeanH
I’m pretty sure they dropped the smokes when they switched to MREs in the early 80’s.
scott
let ’em smoke if they want…
ZaftigAmazon
According to one of my friends, a dual U.S./ Czech citizen, the Czech Republic encourages its citizens to smoke. It cuts pension costs. Also, it’s cheaper to deal with 18 months of lung cancer treatment, and having the (65-year old) patient die, than to continue paying health care benefits for the next 20-25 years.
PanAmerican
Whatever you do Hank, don’t light a cigarette. A good sniper can see a hot cherry for miles.
Brock, I don’t smoke.
Good. Now’s a lousy time to start.
PanAmerican
Whatever you do Hank, don’t light a cigarette. A good sniper can see a hot cherry for miles.
Hank Venture: Brock, I don’t smoke.
Brock Samson: Good. Now’s a lousy time to start.
Phoebe
That’s insane. If they’re going to ban smoking, that is the very last place they should do it.
Fax Paladin
I’m of two minds on this. The free cigs that (as mentioned upthread) were issued with the rations reaped obscene returns for the tobacco industry as all those soldiers came home hooked. My dad was one of them; he smoked Marlboros up to the point where he simply couldn’t anymore, a week or two before he died. Most of my childhood I would wake in the middle of the night to his racking coughs. So, no, I don’t have any particular love for the tobacco industry. I hold it at least partly responsible for the fact that I haven’t had a living father for 25 years now.
But cigarettes aren’t (as far as I know) being given away anymore, and I’m not comfortable with the idea of a ban.
Fax Paladin
@Poopyman:
Have you seen Tesla coils used as musical instruments?
(Can’t get the YouTube link to work… )
Poopyman
Fax (If you ever comeback to this post):
No! Do you mean the hacked gadgets one?