Also, I’ll Have Kale, Spinach and Peas For Dinner

God love Sullivan, because I know his heart is in the right place:

We switched the color scheme in solidarity. Wear green if you can. They need to know we care.

If someone can give me one legitimate piece of evidence that wearing green boxers is going to help bring democracy to Iran, so help me I’ll wear plaid from head to toe and shoot for world peace.

I know he means well, but this is what I was talking about this morning when I said that the coverage of the events in Iran by American bloggers was giving me a warblogger circa 2003 vibe. I can’t be the only one who is reminded of Abbie Hoffman’s plans to levitate the Pentagon through the power of meditation.

My thoughts are with the folks in Iran risking it all fighting for democracy, but this can not be said enough- this is not about us, it is about them. I love the coverage of events, but please stop with this narcissistic nonsense.

*** Update ***

And via Sullivan, a measured response from Obama:

Also, this Larison piece is a solid read, and this is sage advice.

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289 replies
  1. 1
    Linkmeister says:

    TBogg has the pithiest comment I’ve seen so far, expressing your sentiments about the same way.

  2. 2
    NonyNony says:

    My thoughts are with the folks in Iran risking it all fighting for democracy, but this can not be said enough- this is not about us, it is about them.

    Damn fucking straight.

    If I thought there was something I could really do that would help I’d do it. Wearing a green polo shirt on the other side of the world isn’t going to do anything. Well, anything other than mark me as the same kind of jackass that thinks slapping a “Support Our Troops” bumper sticker on my SUV does anything to support the troops.

  3. 3
    gbear says:

    I can’t be the only one who is reminded of Abbie Hoffman’s plans to levitate the Pentagon through the power of meditation.

    How’d that work out?

  4. 4
    Ash says:

    My eyes practically rolled out of my head at this one.

    If you (Iranians) can read this out there, know that we are with you, every day and every moment of your fight for your freedoms. And know this too: Yes You Can.

  5. 5
    Jim says:

    My recollection is that Iran watchers were predicting teh collapse of the mullah gov’t before Bush invaded Iraq. And Ahmadinajhad (I’ve just given up trying to spell it right) won a narrow election victory because Bush was issuing scolding, paternalistic statements to the Iranian people in the run up to the election.

  6. 6
    Kiril says:

    As I learned it, levitating the Pentagon was a publicity stunt and prank, but with the very real effect of disrupting traffic in and out. When my dad told me about it, he described it as the day Abbie Hoffman succeeded in screwing with the Pentagon, not the day he failed to levitate it.

  7. 7
    JK says:

    I would gladly welcome a significant reduction in the amount of narcissistic nonsense that is being generated in the blogosphere. We’re drowning in an ocean of it.

  8. 8
    gwangung says:

    I take it, then, that this is out of the question.

  9. 9
    Face says:

    Why green? Does that mean “GO!” for protesters? Or is it a a belief that the other regime will be more Earth-friendly?

  10. 10
    Dave says:

    Green may not work too well, but launching DDOS attacks on their governmental websites will at least annoy the piss out of them

  11. 11
    The Other Steve says:

    Sadly the 1960s hippie love children had far too great of an effect on our society, and not in a positive way.

  12. 12
    mcd says:

    I’ll be drinking green beer in solidarity. Hooray, St. Patrick’s Day!

    Wait, this is something else?

  13. 13
    stacie says:

    Thanks John. We seem to have internalized this very American view that whatever outcome we want in the world is within our power to effect, if only the United States government would do *something*.

    The events that have begun in Iran are entirely Iranian. They will unfold as the Iranian public, tenaciously outraged or beaten back by the thugs on bikes, decide they will. It’ll be tragic if the people lose this opportunity, but I can’t think of anything at all that the US government can do that won’t damage the delicate roll of history as it washes across Iran.

  14. 14
    Xanthippas says:

    Yeah, I think Sullivan’s heart is in the right place too. But you have to be some kind of ignoramus to forget about our particular history of meddling with Iran’s internal affairs before you go popping off about how should and should not be the President over there. This isn’t the “orange revolution”; this is an election that has consequences on our own international relations and domestic politics, and we would do well to try to look not quite as interested in the outcome as we rather obviously are.

  15. 15
    gbear says:

    @Kiril:

    Only at Balloon Juice does every question – whether serious, rhetorical, or just plain smart-assed – find someone willing to give it a thoughtful and informed answer. Thank you.

  16. 16
    Crashman06 says:

    Sully is getting awfully carried away with this. I’d caution him to not impose his own personal hopes for Iran on these protesters. Even if they get what they want (which I don’t think that they will), it might not change things much.

  17. 17
    Limagolf says:

    Well, Sully has always been exitable. I kinda like him for it, at least when he’s right. And he’s been more right than wrong lately, especially on the torture issue.

    So bear with him, and remember that he is fundamentally right on this one, even if wearing green will accomplish nothing much. But those people on the streets in Iran deseve whatever help we can give, even if it is only reprinting their tweets in green.

  18. 18
    MattF says:

    It looks like we’re seeing some answers to the question of what ‘new media’ news will look like when the old media die off– and it’s not good. Incoherent, rumors instead of news, waves of emotion. Readers in the virtual worlds get to choose what reality they prefer. And later, if they’re honest, regrets.

  19. 19
    Betsy says:

    @Face:
    Green was the theme color of the main oppo candidate’s campaign.

  20. 20
    stacie says:

    @Face – Green is Mousavi’s campaign color.

  21. 21
    erlking says:

    Completely OT, but what’s a good recipe for kale?

  22. 22
    Montysano says:

    To be fair: more than once over the past few days, Sully has said “This is not about us”. So yeah…. his heart is in the right place, and that’s a good thing. I surely can’t see where he’s doing any harm. It’s interesting: I’ve been very dismissive of Twitter, but that’s how much of the information is sneaking through.

  23. 23
    jl says:

    As some one said here, Sullivan is excitable. Very excitable. But there is a situation for every man, and an extraordinary situation sometimes demands a ridiculous man in order for extraoridnary results. If Sullivan can produce extraordinary awareness of the events in Iran here in the U.S., then good on him.

    I would not be too cynical about this.

    I have been fascinated by the twitter feeds from Iran. They do need twitter experts to supply them with new IPA addresses they can use before their government shuts down access (I don’t understand the details of it).

    They are asking people to prevent their governments from accepting the election results. So, I think that they are asking for international help.

    I think some people are being too cynical when they try to suss out who might have ‘really’ won the election (as if anyone could legitimately win such a godawful messed up thing). Also too cynical in dismissing the protesters as wealthy college kids and richies in one section of Tehran.

    I read pre-election interviews from rich and poor neighborhoods at the blog Tehran Bureua, and they provided evidence that there is very widespread discontent with the current president from all levels of society.

    The plain fact is that one faction of the ruling regime decided to tamper with an election in what seems to be something close to a coup, using fraud, force and violence, and blatant violations of their election laws. They debauched their own democratic fig leaf, and gave notice to their people that the law and justice and fairness is secondary to one faction clinging to all its power, and grabbing for more in any damn ruthless way they please.

    Who really won the election, or how much support which candidate has is yesterday’s news. Things have changed irreversibly. Criminal acts have a way of doing that.

    One faction of theocratic thugs made a ruthless power grab and fatally debauched their own election process. The people of the country who feel wronged are fighting back, and that is a very good thing for the long run.

  24. 24
    Tiparillo says:

    Watch out Cole or you’ll be called an appeaser or in league with teh Mullahs. At least you won’t be called part of a fifth column since you’re not Iranian…AFAIK

  25. 25
    bloodstar says:

    Your Cynicism is showing. I’ve switched my blog to a green because it’s the *only* thing I can do. None of us can go to Iran, nor can we send money or bullets or anything.

    The only thing we have are words, the words we create, the words that come from Iran. Those words, those voices are what we can relay, and send out to the world.

    You can argue that it’s pointless, that it’s blogosphoric naval gazing, but if it means that a few more people get information that they couldn’t otherwise get, then perhaps, just perhaps, we’ve done something right.

    Besides, with the Dish under a DDOS attack, I suppose you could say on some level, that someone wants him silenced. So yeah, if I were him, I’d take it personally.

  26. 26
    Betsy says:

    @erlking:
    Either put it in soup (soooo yummy and good for you), or saute it in olive oil with garlic, onions, salt and pepper, and a little lemon juice (or white wine), and maybe a bit of broth, until it’s wilted but not soggy.

  27. 27
    Jane says:

    I think you guys are missing the point. A lot depends on the word getting out. It’s their business, but they need witnesses. If you think it’s “breathless” and eye-rolling, that’s a point of view. But when the blogs report on what’s happening, they’re performing a valuable service.

  28. 28
    beetroot says:

    The breathless “solidarity” thing does smack a bit of the dorm room. But you gotta give it to Sully for doing a good job of rounding up twitter posts, videos, and other firsthand accounts, not all of which conform to his preferred narrative. I’ve found him a very helpful companion to the MSM. If he keeps that up, I’ll gladly put up with the rest.

  29. 29
    Cyrus says:

    @Jim:

    My recollection is that Iran watchers were predicting teh collapse of the mullah gov’t before Bush invaded Iraq. And Ahmadinajhad (I’ve just given up trying to spell it right) won a narrow election victory because Bush was issuing scolding, paternalistic statements to the Iranian people in the run up to the election.

    Just like it sounds: Ahmadinejad. (I’m not certain I have it right and I didn’t look it up, but I know I’m close.)

    You say you’ve given up, but obviously not, because you didn’t write Ahmadinnerjacket or some other variation I’ve seen others use. Thanks. Jokes now and then about it being hard to pronounce are totally fine, anything’s fair game for light ribbing about, but it grates when people don’t bother approximating the correct spelling of the name at all. For the reason why, review whichever wingnut objected to the pronounciation of Sonya Sotomayor’s name.

    I say this out of solidarity with Ahmadinejad, not as an Iranian (I’m not) but as someone with an unusual and hard-to-pronounce family name.

  30. 30
    john b says:

    man. some jaded mofos in here. and i’ll second what montysano is saying.

    pardon us for getting caught up in the goings-on of a different country.

    and another thing: what good do you think your blog does in general? do you think you’ve changed anything about politics? yet you still go on posting. and people are happy for it.

    i mean jesus. aren’t there far better things to be upset about than how much someone wants to show their support to an oppressed group of people?

  31. 31
    erlking says:

    Thanks. I just got some in my CSA and was trying to figure out what to do with it.

  32. 32
    Betsy says:

    @Jane:
    I don’t think that’s the criticism – there’s been tons of praise on this blog for Sully’s extensive coverage. It’s the notion that changing one’s color scheme matters a whit that’s got people rolling their eyes.

  33. 33
    The Other Steve says:

    The Internet is all about narcissism!

    Twitter, facebook, blogs. How would these exist if not for narcissism?

  34. 34
    Betsy says:

    @erlking:
    Oh yay! I got my first CSA on Weds. Collards, beets, spinach, cilantro, broccoli, green garlic, and strawberries. Happy time.

  35. 35

    erlking:

    Swap it for your friend’s spinach. Seriously, there are some ways to cook kale so it’s mildly edible — spicy sausage, potatoes, onions, and kale are pretty OK — but none that my actual family will eat.

    This is why it’s important to co-buy a CSA share with a friend.

  36. 36
    TenguPhule says:

    Sully is getting awfully carried away with this.

    Sully just wants to get his Wargasm(tm) on!

  37. 37
    jl says:

    To put in ways we might understand. what if, before the 2004 election, the Bush administration massively shut down Democratic political ads as being illegal in some obscure way, selectively blocked communications channels Democrats used, and warned about harsh crackdowns if anyone made a fuss afterwards. Then sent out the national guard to “protect” public areas from broad classes of people (aka any Karry supporter) who were automatically and prospectively branded as troublemakers and malcontents?

    How would you feel if people in other countries said “well, Bush was going to win anyway?” Or, “It’s their business” or “Kerry didn’t really represent those primitive heartland American values I read about in a snide Economist survey last week”

    I do not think you would feel so good. The Iranian people need to take the lead, but I think the protesters’ point of view should be taken very seriously. And if it is clear that they are asking from some kind of international support, that should be taken very seriously as well.

  38. 38
    Fern says:

    I find it hard to think of anything the Americans can do or say that wouldn’t worsen an already complex, delicate, and volatile situation.

  39. 39
    Tom Hilton says:

    Instead of wearing green, I think I’ll just drink a few pints of Guinness. Same basic message, right?

  40. 40
    Steve says:

    My wife told me this morning that she was going to wear green. I said, “Okay, but are you actually expecting to leave the house at any point?” Somewhat miffed, she responded that it couldn’t hurt, which I suppose I have to grant.

  41. 41
    TenguPhule says:

    But when the blogs report on what’s happening, they’re performing a valuable service

    So do roaches. But we don’t see them playing bleeding martyrs for freedom.

  42. 42
    Fern says:

    My apologies if someone has already posted this link – but Ackerman has a good piece related to this topic.

    http://attackerman.firedoglake.....hemselves/

  43. 43
    canuckistani says:

    Completely OT, but what’s a good recipe for kale?

    Burn it, bury the ashes in a heavy duty plastic bag and cover the site with a concrete slab. The find some Brussels Sprouts, the best member of the Brassicaceae family.

  44. 44
    Crazy Kale Lady says:

    @erlking:
    I like you!
    Bill Belichick is really gonna like you too.
    Betsy, I like you a lot too.

  45. 45
    TenguPhule says:

    I find it hard to think of anything the Americans can do or say that wouldn’t worsen an already complex, delicate, and volatile situation.

    Bomb, bomb Iran.

    Thank you and good night.

  46. 46
    TenguPhule says:

    Completely OT, but what’s a good recipe for kale?

    Soup. The meat should outnumber the Kale 3 to 1.

  47. 47
    Betsy says:

    @Doctor Science:
    Dude no way. In a chicken (or tofu, if you’re a vegetarian like me) noodle soup, it provides a wonderful counterpoint to the saltiness of the broth and the sweetness of carrots, peppers, and onions. And unlike spinach, it’s sturdy enough to actually keep its structural integrity in a soup like that.

    *I feel kind of guilty blogging about frivolity in this thread, but I had to defend kale’s honor.

  48. 48
    TenguPhule says:

    God love Sullivan, because I know his heart is in the right place:

    Secreted in a diamond which is hidden in a locked chest in the middle of a freezing lake, guarded by talking alligators.

    Take that!

  49. 49
    Colette says:

    @Fern:

    I find it hard to think of anything the Americans can do or say that wouldn’t worsen an already complex, delicate, and volatile situation.

    At an official level – this, exactly. At the popular or individual level, it’s really frustrating that there is so little we can do from outside Iran that would be more effective (and less silly) than green font color.

    Also, his overuse of “know” as an imperative is rapidly clawing its way to the top of the dungpile of Things Sully Does That Annoy The Crap Out Of Me.

  50. 50
    fitzwili says:

    Well I think at least the changing of the color of his website might have some small morale boosting effect on a few. Young Iranians have used new media to their advantage in this conflict. I have seen comments from young Iranians in Tehran participating in the protests not only on twitter, but on 538 -even Jezebel for goodness sake. The internet not only allows us to see far off events, it allows others in those far off places to see how we react. I imagine that for some who are not just feeling besieged, but who are actually besieged – a gesture of fellow feeling might be appreciated.

  51. 51
    Brachiator says:

    My thoughts are with the folks in Iran risking it all fighting for democracy, but this can not be said enough- this is not about us, it is about them.

    I don’t have an easy answer here, but it seems cold comfort to just have nice thoughts about the people of Iran, and then to say, “tough cookies. Good luck with your little problems” especially when people put their lives at risk to get information out of the country about what is happening there.

    What’s the point of a U.N., the State Department, or even Obama’s speeches to the Middle East if “this is not about us, it is about them.”

  52. 52
    robertdsc says:

    God does not love Sullivan because he’s a homosexual.

    /The Pope

  53. 53
    Betsy says:

    @jl:

    To put in ways we might understand. what if, before the 2004 election, the Bush administration massively shut down Democratic political ads as being illegal in some obscure way, selectively blocked communications channels Democrats used, and warned about harsh crackdowns if anyone made a fuss afterwards. Then sent out the national guard to “protect” public areas from broad classes of people (aka any Karry supporter) who were automatically and prospectively branded as troublemakers and malcontents?
    How would you feel if people in other countries said “well, Bush was going to win anyway?” Or, “It’s their business” or “Kerry didn’t really represent those primitive heartland American values I read about in a snide Economist survey last week”
    I do not think you would feel so good. The Iranian people need to take the lead, but I think the protesters’ point of view should be taken very seriously. And if it is clear that they are asking from some kind of international support, that should be taken very seriously as well.

    I actually think this is a good example. I think we would be pretty damn disturbed if, I don’t know, Argentina decided that the best way to respond was to directly intervene militarily or something.
    Moreoever, no one at this blog is not “taking the protesters’ point of view very seriously.” But wearing your St. Patrick’s Day shirt /= taking this seriously.

  54. 54
    Jen R says:

    I’ve been watching the tweets from Iran and doing what they ask people to do if possible. So far, that’s been: a) wearing green and b) asking Twitter not to take the site down for maintenance tonight.

    It’s so little as to seem ridiculous, but that’s what people are asking for.

  55. 55
    Crashman06 says:

    What exactly are the goals of the reformist party in this situation anyway? Would it necessarily be a good thing (for us) if they emerge victorious out of this? I know Ahmadinejad is no good, so probably any change would be better, but what about unintended consequences? Aren’t a lot of these protesters still pretty strongly religious and conservative?

  56. 56
    D-Chance. says:

    And while you’re at it, don’t forget to buy another yellow ribbon magnet for you car to “help” our boys win the war; or pink t-shirts to bring them all home.

    Good God, we HAVE to have “team colors”. You can’t play the game if you can’t tell one team from the other, and those colored ribbons, clothing, websites, whatever, helps distinguish “our side” from “their side”.

    Go! Team! Win! Rah-rah-RAH!

    /sigh…

  57. 57
    Notorious P.A.T. says:

    I’m wearing green for this. Why not? Gotta wear something.

  58. 58
    stacie says:

    For the record, I believe that what’s happening in Iran bears a lot of the hallmarks of Poland and E. Germany in 1989. I’ve wondered over the last several days whether the people of Iran were simply trying to maintain the status quo, but with a different president, or something greater. As this goes on longer, as the government becomes more repressive in response, and as more Iranian blood is shed, it seems more and more likely that the only outcomes are brutal repression or a complete toppling of the existing order.

    I’m hoping for the second. We all should be hoping for the second. Iranians have tolerated a vestige of democracy that provided them stability, if not freedom, for three decades. That vestige has now been removed, and they have taken the radical step of trading stability for freedom. As cynical as we all are, really, that’s a damn impressive thing they’re doing.

  59. 59
    gypsy howell says:

    What color was Sully sporting when Bush stole the election here?

  60. 60
    shrodinger's cat says:

    Hey my bag is green, does that count?

  61. 61
    wobbly says:

    I largely agree with Stacie, although I’d say the roll of history is generally not all that delicate, not in Iran or anywhere else.

    While it’s great to see a Sullivan finally wear the green, I’d think he’d be better employed getting in touch with the Iranians in this country (many live not far from him) and getting involved with their fundraising efforts, community organizing, educational outreach, and immigration difficulties.

    It’s their families who are being hit over there, and they are going to need some help (mostly cash) when the hammer comes down.

  62. 62
  63. 63
    NonyNony says:

    @Brachiator:

    I don’t have an easy answer here, but it seems cold comfort to just have nice thoughts about the people of Iran, and then to say, “tough cookies. Good luck with your little problems” especially when people put their lives at risk to get information out of the country about what is happening there.

    The question is – is there anything at all that the USA could say or do officially or unofficially, right now, that would make things better for the protesters in Iran?

    Or is it more likely that anything that the US government does to give support to the reform movement and the student protesters will only lend credibility to the mullahs and the current regime?

    Sometimes, the best course of action we can take is to just sit it out and hope that things work out without us. We can’t fix everything and we have a long history of poking our noses into places and making things worse instead of better. Yeah, it’s frustrating to think that our big bad-ass nation with all its wealth and armies and academics and whatnot actually can’t do anything. But sometimes it’s the case. And the world would actually probably be a lot better off if we did a better job of figuring out when our “interventions” would do more harm than good.

    This is clearly one of those times. If the reform movement starts asking for our help I’ll change my mind. But right now this is their movement, their struggle and their work. And anything that the US government tries to do can only hurt their movement. So we need to butt out until they ask for our help – and even then we need to be careful in what we do lest the entire process become delegitimized by association with the “Great Satan”.

  64. 64
    Jon H says:

    I can see your point, John, but don’t forget that there are a lot of Iranian expats around the world. One is a neuroscience grad student down the hall from me here in Boston.

    Iran isn’t in some kind of bubble, and word is going to filter in.

    Assuming Obama does the prudent thing and stays aloof, the knuckleheads in the media treating Ahmedinejad’s win as a legitimate fait accompli are going to carry a fair amount of weight. It probably wouldn’t hurt for Iranians in and out of the country to see expressions of support for the opposition.

  65. 65
    shrodinger's cat says:

    Hey my bag is green, does that count? Also I will have broccoli rabe for dinner tonight.

  66. 66
    mr. whipple says:

    I love the coverage of events, but please stop with this narcissistic nonsense.

    Is there anything more narcissitic than a blog?

    As goofy as he can be, I give major props to AS for what he did this weekend, and i’m certain his server stats went thru the roof.

    Just sayin.

  67. 67
    jl says:

    I do not think that the U.S. government should do something to explicitly take sides in who won the election (since that it moot now), or throw bone-headed ham-handed support to something called “the forces of freedom and capitalism” It should not announce some new bogusly branded “color revolution.” That is Bush-league stuff which grown ups should stay away from. And irresponsible. And counterproductive. And stupid.

    But I do take seriously what I have read from the blogs and twitter, and I will write to WH and my Congresscritters that I think the U.S. government should
    1) not accept the results of last week’s election,
    2) make it clear that they expect human rights and lawful democratic process to be observed in the spirit and the letter.

    I think that is all that should be done now.

    Unless you are twitter expert, in which case, I think that kind of person should log on and do whatever proxy IPA thing that is being done to keep communications open.

  68. 68
    burnspbesq says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Naw, yer doin’ it wrong.

    That’s where Dick Cheney’s conscience is hidden.

  69. 69
    linda says:

    abbie hoffman… shortly after moving to nyc, i had an opportunity to deal with him thru my job. he was one of the gentlest and nicest souls i’ve ever encountered. iirc, he even signed off with ‘groovy’ at the end of a conversation once… lol.

    rip.

  70. 70
    Surreal American says:

    I would gladly welcome a significant reduction in the amount of narcissistic nonsense that is being generated in the blogosphere. We’re drowning in an ocean of it.

    The blogosphere without narcissism would be, well, some other medium.

    Face it. Posting online and self-importance go hand-in-hand. Oh, and before I forget, yes I’m guilty as charged.

  71. 71
    Redshirt says:

    I wore green today. Why the hell not? I really am thinking a lot about the folks over in Iran who are putting their lives on the line for their beliefs.

    I met two co-workers today also wearing green. I asked them if it was because of Iran, they said yes. I had no idea these people would care, but they did, and we talked. Did we accomplish anything, specifically helping the Iranians? Most likely not. Did we add an iota of understanding and regard to our daily world here? Yes.

    I’ve got my doubts about Sully too, but I like that he gets fired up about some subjects, and I’m willing to overlook any displays of emotion towards that end.

  72. 72
    Fern says:

    @wobbly:

    Well, that sounds sensible.

  73. 73
    jl says:

    @wobbly: yeah, that too, thanks. People should get in touch with respectable progressive Iranian organizations see what they can do.

  74. 74
    Jon H says:

    @NonyNony: “The question is – is there anything at all that the USA could say or do officially or unofficially, right now, that would make things better for the protesters in Iran?”

    USA Government? Nothing.

    Private USA citizens? YES. For instance, relaying messages and videos and photos so that the Iranian government can’t hope to keep a lid on it.

  75. 75
    shrodinger's cat says:

    Halp! I iz stuck in moderation.

  76. 76
    erlking says:

    @canuckistani: @<a
    I sense you’re holding back–how do you REALLY feel?

  77. 77
    ninerdave says:

    First comment from that Tapped article:

    We would look particularly foolish given our own recently rigged contests (the 2000 presidential election as well as the 2008 Democratic nominating process); we aren’t actually the bastions of voting authenticity required for such judgements here.

    Lawlz.

  78. 78
    Jon H says:

    @Crashman06: “Aren’t a lot of these protesters still pretty strongly religious and conservative?”

    Ahmedinejad’s the one the religious police are supporting. The opposition has the support of the women, especially the women who support greater freedom of dress for themselves.

  79. 79
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Get out of the Middle East. Period.

    Arrogance is thinking we can change it.

    North America has 67% of the world’s remaining hydrocarbons, or over four centuries of fuel, mostly in the form of oil shale.

  80. 80
    Jon H says:

    @Betsy: ” But wearing your St. Patrick’s Day shirt /= taking this seriously.”

    You’re right – if you don’t encounter any Iranians or Iranian-Americans in your day. If you sit at home in your green shirt eating cheetos, yeah, that’s pointless.

    But if you have Iranian neighbors or coworkers? And they have family back in Iran? That show of support might not be pointless after all.

  81. 81
    ninerdave says:

    While the green may be a little over-the-top, Sully’s been doing a fantastic job covering Iran. Better than any traditional media outlet I’ve found.

  82. 82
    anonevent says:

    @TenguPhule: This, though, may be one of the times where we, and Sullivan, can say something, make our web pages green, and wear green clothes, and make a (very small) show of solidarity without causing a problem. Obama, on the other hand, has to keep quiet.

  83. 83
    TenguPhule says:

    That’s where Dick Cheney’s conscience is hidden.

    Dick Cheney has a conscience?

  84. 84
    Crashman06 says:

    @Jon H: Thanks for the clarification. I’m not sure where I got mixed up like that.

  85. 85
    Comrade Sock Puppet of the Great Satan says:

    I was in Moscow in August 1991 during the abortive coup and was at the Russian Parliament building when they announced they’d arrested the leaders of said coup.

    Despite being on the spot, I was reliant on the BBC World Service and phone calls home to know what the heck was going on. On the ground, there was a lot of wrong information, or just stuff that was superceded by the fluidity of the situation.

    And yes, I felt completely impotent, which was an accurate assessment of the situation. In the end, it was decisions made by and for Russians that resolved that crisis.

    My sole role was to drink vodka with the other revelers celebrating that the putsch had failed.

    So, to anyone wishing they were in Tehran and could do more to help the anti-Ahmedin-Nedjad forces: even if you were there, there’d be little you could do, and you wouldn’t know jackshit anyway bout what was happening unless you spoke Farsi. And don’t participate in DDoS attacks: you’re risking bandwidth and connectivity that could be used by pro-Mousavi twitterers.

    I suspect, like the 1991 abortive coup, whether or not this attempt succeeds will depend on how the Revolutionary Guard calibrates its response to protesters, and how much homework they did on getting other parts of the ruling apparatus on board, and whether other centers of power (like the Army) believe that that this power grab is solid or shaky.

    We’ll know in 2-3 days. For good or ill, this won’t take long.

  86. 86
    TenguPhule says:

    North America has 67% of the world’s remaining hydrocarbons, or over four centuries of fuel, mostly in the form of oil shale.

    And the majority of it would cost more then its worth to extract.

    Thank you, please don’t come again with that bullshit.

  87. 87
    patrick says:

    Ahem.

    http://www.balloon-juice.com/?.....nt-1266688

    And his green text is one of those utterly empty and totally useless gestures that only serve to make himself feel “part of” that Conservatives love so much – like wearing a flag pin somehow makes one genuinely patriotic.

    10:25 this morning.

  88. 88
    schrodinger's cat says:

    oops, sorry for the double posts and misspelling my handle. I need some coffee.

  89. 89
    John Cole says:

    @ninerdave: I don’t understand why everyone keeps saying this. I have repeatedly said I love his coverage of the events unfolding, to include it being the last sentence in this post.

  90. 90
    Max Peck says:

    Is there any chance this could lead to people on the fringe realizing the Iranian people are not our enemy and do not wish for the destruction of the west (that ahmadinejad does not represent the will of the people)? If so I’d paint my house green.

  91. 91
    Jon H says:

    I figure these sort of things tend not to be drawn out for weeks or months. Something gives way, relatively quickly. Either the tanks come out, or the regime topples.

    During this period, keeping morale up is going to be crucial. Each day they’re going to be tempted to stay home, stay safe, not take any risks, go to work instead of striking, etc. What they decide is going to be influenced by how much progress they feel is being made.

    Yeah, maybe a bunch of green blogs would be pointless. But maybe for some Iranians a wave of green blogs would help them feel that they’re making progress, even if on the ground the day was won by the government, and so it would still be worthwhile to hit the streets again tomorrow.

    Consider the reverse: If the government seems to be getting the upper hand one day, and the rest of the world is ignoring it, and declaring Ahmedinejad the winner, then I’d think Iranians would be more likely to just give up and stay home. And then they’ve lost.

  92. 92
    D-Chance. says:

    The LOG.

    /double sigh…

  93. 93
    Comrade Stuck says:

    After watching and reading multiple sources of Iran coverage, I am convinced that NO ONE knows what the fuck is going on, including most Iranians. This is one of those clusterfucks that looks like a pink flamingo, but really is a Vulture in an evening gown, or vice versa. We’ll know what is going on after it’s finished. Maybe.

  94. 94
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    Russia producing shale oil for $14-17/bbl.

    Russian technology leaves spent shale, which has EPA issues. In-situ processes are available that can safely produce it for under $30/bbl. There is a ban on domestic oil shale development.

  95. 95
    Jon H says:

    @Brick Oven Bill: “In-situ processes are available that can safely produce it for under $30/bbl. There is a ban on domestic oil shale development.”

    Yeah, they melt it out. It’s a CO2 nightmare.

  96. 96
    LD50 says:

    Since I am a liberal, and thus, in Sully’s overexcitable imagination, do not object to Islamic intolerance, I refuse to wear green. Fuck ‘im.

  97. 97
    ninerdave says:

    @John Cole:

    I don’t understand why everyone keeps saying this. I have repeatedly said I love his coverage of the events unfolding, to include it being the last sentence in this post.

    I know you have. I was just making a general statement that I think his coverage is fantastic, and yes the green is a bit over the top.

    That’s all.

  98. 98
    Max Peck says:

    North America has 67% of the world’s remaining hydrocarbons, or over four centuries of fuel, mostly in the form of oil shale.

    Which will cost what per barrel on the global market? It’s not going to be sold domestically at a discount without a) gov’t forcing a private comany to do so or b) by having the gov’t run the industry. You’re against both I’d guess. So why be for lifting this ban? It seems to me you’re only interested in lifting the ban because the ban is an unfair gov’t intrusion into free market principles. As is usually the case with any argument put forth by a conservative, troll bot or real, it’s all about business centric economics.

  99. 99
    LD50 says:

    @erlking:

    This recipe has come out well for me.

  100. 100
    stinkwrinkle says:

    Not only is the “WEAR GREEN OMFG!!!1!” nonsense getting old, but somebody remind me: why do we care who wins? So the braindead warbloggers can scream “FREEDOM!” like a Braveheart extra? Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t these candidates have to be approved by the council of Mullahs (not the right name, I know) before they can even get on the ballot? This Mousavi dude has held power before, and yet the Supreme Leader rules, because Top Secular Leader in Iran just isn’t all that powerful a position. Are we supposed to be outraged because the democracy factor in Iran got dialed back from 10% to 8%? Uh, OK, I guess… This election just doesn’t seem all that important to me. Yeah, Ahmadinejad sounds like a dick, but I don’t know that the other guy is any better, and frankly, who cares if he is a dick? You’d think this was a total overthrow of the Islamic Republic, the way the shriekers are carrying on, and I just can’t see it.

  101. 101
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    A small heat source is used, ideally a closed steam cycle, requiring minimal water due to condensate traps, to break the large kerogen molecule into liquid bitumen at a temperature of around 600F. The energy used to heat the steam is minimal. Energy in-energy out can approach 1:10. It is a highly efficient process.

    The production of metal for these dumbass windmills and solar panels is a CO2 nightmare. We are living in non-sense land. There is no need for us to be in the Middle East.

  102. 102
    freelancer says:

    @Notorious P.A.T.

    I’m wearing green for this. Why not? Gotta wear something.

    Sez who?

  103. 103
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @LD50:

    I refuse to wear green. Fuck ‘im.

    I can still here Walter Cronkite ending his nightly broadcast with the number of days since the hostage taking. With critical mass occurring upon the announcment of a Reagan landslide. I realize 2/3 of Iranians were born after that, but “fuck ’em” still lives on the tip of my tongue when it comes to Iran.

  104. 104
    stacie says:

    @stinkwrinkle: At this point, we may have passed it being an issue of who won. At this point, Iranians really may knock down their totalitarian institutions and replace them with representative ones, which is hugely exciting.

  105. 105
    mb says:

    I applaud his solidarity, but surely he could have used a less ghastly green.

  106. 106

    […] I think I’m with Sullivan on this one. I understand why John Cole thinks it’s bogus/narcissitic, and yes this revolution in Iran is ultimately about them. But he’s wrong to think it’s […]

  107. 107
    Jon H says:

    @Comrade Stuck: ” I realize 2/3 of Iranians were born after that, but “fuck ‘em” still lives on the tip of my tongue when it comes to Iran.”

    Just think how long Iran was hostage to the dictator we installed.

  108. 108
    geg6 says:

    Sully may well be the most infuriating man on earth. I had sworn him off just a week or two ago over his complete inability to see the parallels between his own focus of being gay, Catholic, and a British Tory and Sotomayor’s wise Latina remarks. But, as he always seems to do, he sucks me back in with his amazing coverage of the situation in Iran. As for the whole green thing, what the messages from Iranians on the scene I’ve been seeing have said is that they want to know that we are witnessing their struggle and supporting them. I don’t know if any of them will see any of us wearing green or using green fonts, but what if they do, especially as they are highly active online? I don’t see how that is over the top. It’s a small gesture and it hurts no one. I have no illusions that the US and its citizens have any role in this and neither, really, does Sully because he’s said it numerous times the past couple of days. But my heart and hopes for them are sincere and I don’t mind showing that if it gets word out about their plight. Not that I’m wearing green, but students on campus did today. And they said they read the same messages requesting shows of support that I did. I find these kids today to be remarkably idealistic, unlike my generation which was the exact opposite. Speaking of which, although a bit older than me (though I remember the moment well), the Yippies were also quite cynical. Which would explain why their stunt of levitating the Pentagon was not sincere, but the equivalent at the time of snarking in the blogosphere is today. It was only the typical lack of humor among the Establishment (read: wingnuts) who thought they were serious.

  109. 109
    DougJ says:

    I have mixed feelings. It’s way over the top but I don’t see it as that bad. A little silly, but harmless and well-intentioned.

  110. 110
    LD50 says:

    @Comrade Stuck:

    Well, actually, I meant fuck Sully.

    Fuck the Iranians would have been ‘fuck ‘em‘. Plural.

    That said, I wish the students well, but there is nothing the US can do there that wouldn’t make things worse.

    (I think basing American foreign policy on sth the Iranians did 30 years ago is senseless, esp. given Reagan’s complicity in it.)

  111. 111

    I wore green today. I plan to do it again tomorrow. Why the hell not? If absolutely nothing else, it makes me feel better. Since there’s no downside, that small piece of narcissism is actually a good thing. Me feeling better is better, all things being equal than me not feeling better.

    I think a lot of people are conflating different things when they say that this is about the Iranians, and America shouldn’t intervene at all, because it would be counter-productive. I agree with that.

    However, signs of support from individual Americans does not have the same connotation that government action does. The analogy of Republicans crushing Democrats was used above, and the poster said that it would be a good thing if people in other countries showed their support. One of the responses to this was that it would not go over well if Argentina decided to intervene militarily. Well, duh. Of course, that wasn’t what was proposed. The proposal was that people in other countries show support. To the extent that news of it got back into the US, millions of people wearing blue to express solidarity would be a good thing. In the face of danger, human beings take comfort in being a part of a crowd. That’s true even if the “crowd” is merely symbolic.

    There’s no downside to wearing green. It’s not going to cause a backlash in Iran. It might even do a tiny amount of good, in ways suggested above. Mocking people who wear green is petty and rude. If they act like their wearing green is going to make a huge difference in changing the world, go ahead and laugh at them, but do it because of their inflated sense of self-importance, not because they decided to take some minimal action.

    Lastly, thank god the US inauguration came *before* the Iranian election. I weep when I think of the 17 ways the Bushies would have already fucked this up.

  112. 112
    Jon H says:

    @ninerdave: “I know you have. I was just making a general statement that I think his coverage is fantastic, and yes the green is a bit over the top.”

    I don’t think the green is over the top when you consider he’s probably getting a lot of Iranian readers right now, and hearing from people directly rather than only watching Twitter.

    ie, the audience for the green isn’t just a bunch of white American web-wankers.

    I suspect John’s attitude would be different if he knew he had a lot of Iranian readers and commenters here.

  113. 113

    […] Also, I’ll Have Kale, Spinach and Peas For Dinner God love Sullivan, because I know his heart is in the right place: We switched the color scheme in solidarity. Wear green if you can. They need to know we care. […]

  114. 114
    Jon H says:

    Here’s an idea: wear a green shirt to a Persian Restaurant.

  115. 115
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @Jon H:

    And I am well aware of that too. But embassy’s are supposed to be sacrosanct. And yes, so are elections. File it under two wrongs don’t make a right. That said, I wish the best for Iran today and God’s speed to the reformers. If for no other reason, world peace.

    My preference would be to leave the Middle East and Central Asia alone to sort out their own problems. but for that cursed black stuff in the ground.

  116. 116
    Jon H says:

    @Comrade Stuck: “And I am well aware of that too. But embassy’s are supposed to be sacrosanct. And yes, so are elections. File it under two wrongs don’t make a right.”

    Well, no, but I’m willing to call us even.

  117. 117
    Little Dreamer says:

    I just happened to buy a new green shirt on Saturday afternoon, before I heard about this whole “wear green” thing. I will wear my new shirt, because I like it, and while I realize I’m not achieving anything by wearing it, I will be thinking of the woman in a picture I saw this morning holding a sign saying “We Want Democracy” because, quite honestly, that sign haunted me.

  118. 118
    LD50 says:

    That said, I wish the best for Iran today and God’s speed to the reformers. If for no other reason, world peace.

    Or, for that matter, whirled peas, which, incidentally, are green, so it all works out.

  119. 119
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @Jon H:

    Well, no, but I’m willing to call us even.

    I can’t argue with dat.

  120. 120
    Max Peck says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    A small heat source is used, ideally a closed steam cycle, requiring minimal water due to condensate traps, to break the large kerogen molecule into liquid bitumen at a temperature of around 600F. The energy used to heat the steam is minimal. Energy in-energy out can approach 1:10. It is a highly efficient process.

    And this has no effect on the environment? I’ve heard getting it out is a bitch since it’s frozen. Therefore it needs to be thawed and thawing the oil shale without thawing the rest of the area is expensive and quite messy.
    Plus it’ll sell for the same barrel price as every other drop of oil in the world which in the end won’t do a damn thing for gas prices in the US.
    But it will make someone rich. Probably someone who is already rich tho.

    Same with ANWR and same with drilling close to shore in the Gulf. Helps the oil companies and…… no one else.

  121. 121
    Gus says:

    Yeah, they melt it out. It’s a CO2 nightmare.

    Which really makes me wonder what the net energy gain is.

  122. 122
    HyperIon says:

    @Doctor Science:

    This is why it’s important to co-buy a CSA share with a friend.

    or join a CSA that lets YOU pick!
    me likey.

  123. 123
    Gar Lipow says:

    I can’t be the only one who is reminded of Abbie Hoffman’s plans to levitate the Pentagon through the power of meditation.

    Actually unfair to Hoffman. That was a piece of political theater aimed at mobilizing apolitical hippies.

  124. 124
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    It is not really ‘frozen’ Max Peck, kerogen is simply a very large hydrocarbon molecule that takes the form of a solid due to its size. Adding heat breaks the kerogen down into smaller, more mobile molecules called ‘bitumen’, or oil (metagenesis). This is simply simulating the geothermal effects that our current oil supplies went through over the hundreds of millions of years.

    Add more heat and the hydrocarbon is broken down further, into natural gas (catagenesis).

    This resource will make America a hyper-power sometime this century. The distribution of the wealth will be a function of the form of government we get after the dollar goes poof. This is why I am a fan of the Constitution. Sorry for the topic drift, but this is relevant to our Middle Eastern foreign policy in my opinion.

    High energy nations always prevail in conflicts.

  125. 125
    peter desmond says:

    i briefly enjoyed it last year when we were all georgians, but then i found out that i couldn’t read the alphabet and lost interest.

  126. 126
    Max Peck says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:
    The oil shale in Colorado is frozen, as in ice cold, as in below freezing just like the ground around it. I didn’t say it was in a solid state similar to being frozen. In order to extract it it must be liquid. Making it liquid without thawing out all the fround around the oil shale is a bit of a project. An expensive project. But you’re right we got tons of it.

  127. 127
    HyperIon says:

    I don’t think I will wear green.

    But I am going to try to contact all the Iranians I met in grad school to see if they have (non-sartorial) suggestions about what to do that might help.

  128. 128
    TenguPhule says:

    Which really makes me wonder what the net energy gain is.

    To an oil executive’s wallet, which is hardwired to their penis, naturally.

  129. 129
    TenguPhule says:

    It is not really ‘frozen’ Max Peck, kerogen is simply a very large hydrocarbon molecule that takes the form of a solid due to its size.

    BOB did not do the research.

  130. 130
    LD50 says:

    i briefly enjoyed it last year when we were all georgians, but then i found out that i couldn’t read the alphabet and lost interest.

    Can we all be Swedes for a while? They have national health care and stuff.

    Then let’s all be Thais for the food for a couple days.

  131. 131
    TenguPhule says:

    Then let’s all be Thais for the food for a couple days.

    Blech!

    I’d rather be Cantonese for a day.

  132. 132
    Comrade Stuck says:

    Just so long as we’re not all Captain Tuttle.

  133. 133
    Brick Oven Bill says:

    At the risk of boasting, I do my own research TenguPhule, and my brick oven can reach temperatures of 700F. The kerogen just melts.

  134. 134
    lamh31 says:

    I think he took the right tone with his statement.

    “Obama on Iran”
    http://www.politico.com/politi.....52009.html

    OBAMA ON IRAN: In his pool spray with Berlusconi, Obama says he doesn’t want to make the United States “the issue,” but speaks out forcefully on the Iranian election and its aftermath…
    “I am deeply troubled by the violence I have been seeing on television. I think the democratic process, free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent — all those are universal values and need to be respected. And whenever I see violence perpetrated on people who are peacefully dissenting, and whenever the American people see that, I think they are troubled.”
    “There appears to be a sense of people who were so hopeful and so engaged and so committed to democracy, who now feel betrayed, and I think it’s important that moving forward, whatever investigations that take place are done in a way that does not result in bloodshed, and does not result in people being stifled, in expressing their views.” (6:45 p.m.)
    TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE: “I would say to them that the world is watching and inspired by their participation, regardless of what the ultimate outcome of the election was. And they should know that the world is watching.” (6:47 p.m.)

  135. 135
    Max Peck says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    The kerogen just melts.

    When? In the ground or out?

  136. 136
    Billy Bob Tweed says:

    Sadly, warblogger Sully has not archived his solidarity live-postings of the events of Feb. 15, 2003, when tens of millions assembled to protest the fraud and forthcoming genocidal war crimes being drafted by the Bush Junta.

    Of course, the millions assembled didn’t really count, the lot of them being nothing more than woefully misguided filthy stinking hippies. And Twitter hadn’t been invented.

    Things were so much different back in the day, aye.

  137. 137
    gratuitous says:

    Actually, it was Allan Ginsburg, not Abbie Hoffman, who had the idea of surrounding the Pentagon and levitating it.

  138. 138
    Jon H says:

    @Max Peck: “The oil shale in Colorado is frozen, as in ice cold, as in below freezing just like the ground around it.”

    In Colorado? What is it, on the tops of mountains above the snow line?

  139. 139
    MNPundit says:

    I get this, but for those us here where there IS nothing we can do, we can at least do that. If nothing else, it gives ordinary people an option to have a conversation about Iran that doesn’t have the word “nuclear” or “terrorist” in it. A chance to see them as a normal country. And that can only broaden our foreign policy options with them.

  140. 140
    TenguPhule says:

    At the risk of boasting, I do my own research

    We know BOB, it shows.

  141. 141
    Johnny Cigarettes says:

    I remember the last time I saw young students rebelling in Iran. I was stoked, and wore green in solidarity for them, too. That worked out well *cough*.

  142. 142
    Jon H says:

    Judging by this, the ‘frozen shale’ stuff is a misunderstanding.

    The shale isn’t frozen, they freeze a perimeter around the shale being mined in order to keep water out while the shale is being heated.

  143. 143
    News Nag says:

    to The Other Steve, comment #11:

    still can’t get laid, eh?

    time to quit blaming the liberation movement of the 1960s for all your cranky complaints

    you were wrong then and you’re wrong now

  144. 144
    John from Concord says:

    Sullivan’s doing a hell of a lot more good in this direction than you are. If all you’ve got is playground snark, pull the blog down and go get a real job, eh?

  145. 145
    Matt says:

    I have green on Sully’s blog, or PamAn’s repulsive tits over here. I’ll take green, sorry.

  146. 146
    Rico says:

    Sullivan is cheesy sometimes, but with any piece of media that is read as heavily as his blog (his traffic has been so heavy this weekend, his ISP thought it was a DoS attack), an outpouring of sentiment might indeed have some kind of impact.

  147. 147
    Ron says:

    Your indignence is narcissistic.

  148. 148
    Larry says:

    Sullivan’s trying to do good. What are the self satisfied wankers here doing? Taking a break before heading back to the porn?

  149. 149
    stinkwrinkle says:

    @stacie: Maybe. So far, all I’ve heard is two sides, each yelling “My (state-approved) guy beat your (state-approved) guy.” Obviously, a lot of the over-enthusiastic watchers want this to be the end of the theocracy, but that looks like wishful thinking on their part. (Or not, who the hell knows. I’ve been trying to follow #iranelection and gods below, what a fucking mess Twitter is. 99.9% retweets of the same old crap, over and over….)

  150. 150
    LD50 says:

    Sullivan’s doing a hell of a lot more good in this direction than you are. If all you’ve got is playground snark, pull the blog down and go get a real job, eh?

    Sully’s blog is a ‘real job’?

    I assumed people start blogs to avoid getting real jobs…

  151. 151
    freelancer says:

    Taking a break before heading back to the porn?

    Obviously, Larry’s not a multi-tasker.

  152. 152
    MT says:

    Maybe Sullivan putting the color green on his blog won’t bring democracy to Iran, but if it heartens and encourages Iranian protesters — letting them know that the world is witnessing their struggle and honoring the risks they are taking — it seems like a worthwhile action to me.

    What else we can do:
    * send the photos/videos from Iran to everyone we know. Make sure these images are SEEN.
    * email the major TV networks… tell them to start covering this story, for real!
    * email or call your congresspeople and tell them that you care about what is happening in Iran.

  153. 153
    Mike says:

    In case you missed it, Obama didn’t think it was over the top when he put on his tie today…

  154. 154
    An Outhouse says:

    Just don’t wear green on Thursday cause that means you’re gay. At least it did in 1978.

    oh, wait.

  155. 155
    LD50 says:

    Your indignence is narcissistic.

    Just to let you know, I read that as ‘indigence’ first.

    Sullivan’s trying to do good. What are the self satisfied wankers here doing? Taking a break before heading back to the porn?

    You’re right. Without Sully, I’d never have realized how much I countenance Islamic Intolerance.

    Now if you don’t mind, I have to go dye my clothes green to show I care.

  156. 156
    Lauren says:

    I love Sully – he was my “first” – blog that is. But I agree that he has gotten a bit silly with all this.

    I’ve loved reading about Lily. What a peach. You I mean for giving her a chance.

  157. 157
    gbear says:

    Sullivan’s trying to do good. What are the self satisfied wankers here doing? Taking a break before heading back to the porn?

    We’re leaving comments, which is more than you can do on Sully’s blog.

    You over here because Sully linked to this site. And you’re leaving comments because you get to interact with this site. Don’t get your undies in a bundle about the lack of purity here. Go back and silently admire Sully’s resolve if you can’t handle a little variety of opinion.

    Now if you’ll excuse me I’m heading back to my gay porn site. Monday is furry animals night.

  158. 158
  159. 159
    gbear says:

    @An Outhouse:

    I always heard it was yellow. Junior high would be hell on thursdays if you forgot that rule.

  160. 160
    decklap says:

    If someone could give one legitimate piece of evidence that being cool and ironic about what’s happening in Iran
    is helping then I’ll do the same. Smug smart-asses don’t have a long history of accomplishment in things that matter finally.

  161. 161
    akolka says:

    Many of the Iranian students able to communicate on twitter suggested that everyone wear green. I wore green today, and yesterday I helped with the DDOS attacks via their twitter directives. They are risking their lives, the least I can do is pay attention to what they are asking the world to do to help. Thanks to the twitters and proxy set-ups, Sullivan’s site has become a go to place for these protesters. They are seeing it. I see his links being passed around among them, and it matters.

  162. 162
    Chris says:

    Yeah, those millions of protestors were so disgusting trying to stop millions from being killed in an war built on a government-media lie. Yeah, damn those hippies. Then Sullivan called them traitors. He’s making up for wasted time…

  163. 163
    LD50 says:

    If someone could give one legitimate piece of evidence that being cool and ironic about what’s happening in Iran is helping then I’ll do the same. Smug smart-asses don’t have a long history of accomplishment in things that matter finally.

    I’m sure your schoolmarmish finger wagging is saving hundreds of lives over there.

  164. 164
    Markus says:

    So you couldn’t find anything else you wanted to pick on Sull for, and you thought it would be best to aim for the font color?

  165. 165
    ZTK says:

    What a cynical jackass you are. Yeah we can’t do anything but put our thoughts and prayers towards those risking their lives for their rights. But the least we can do is show solidarity with their cause and EXPRESS HOPE. Deriding someone for that is sad.

  166. 166
    John127 says:

    You see, here at Balloon Juice, we have the dignity to remain detached and indifferent, and the courage to employ pithy snark as a political argument. Anything redolent of a defense of principles is, and always will be, a neocon racket that leads to aggressive wars and other things that remind us of Bush. Three cheers for disillusionment! Hooray for unfounded cynicism! Now let’s all go back to watching the Daily Show.

  167. 167
    Jorge says:

    Keep in mind that Sullivan has been in pretty constant touch with Iranians. He probably feels like he’s actually developed a bond with them, and it doesn’t hurt to show your support by doing random trivial things.

  168. 168
    decklap says:

    LD50 if you’re paying any attention whatsoever then you should be fully aware that the young people in Iran are aware and thankful for our support. If you feel scolded perhaps you deserve it. If it doesn’t trouble you too much perhaps you could get off your smart ass and host a proxy site, I mean assuming that wouldn’t smack of effort or something.

  169. 169
    mattw says:

    However, doing nothing at all certainly guarantees nothing.

    If every protester thought “wearing green means nothing” there would be no protest at all.

    You people digust life.

  170. 170
    LD50 says:

    You see, here at Balloon Juice, we have the dignity to remain detached and indifferent, and the courage to employ pithy snark as a political argument. Anything redolent of a defense of principles is, and always will be, a neocon racket that leads to aggressive wars and other things that remind us of Bush. Three cheers for disillusionment! Hooray for unfounded cynicism! Now let’s all go back to watching the Daily Show.

    You’ve shamed us all. Please go back to saving democracy in Iran while we slink off in disgrace to watch Rachel Maddow.

    So you couldn’t find anything else you wanted to pick on Sull for, and you thought it would be best to aim for the font color?

    Clearly you’ve only been reading here for about 3 minutes.

  171. 171

    @Markus 164 and similar: Doorknob knows Sully, who must be Barry’s loverboy by now (they’ve been almost equally pathetic since the election, but at least Sully never claimed to be a liberal) has never had a narcissism deficit.

  172. 172
    steven says:

    Never mind the fact that Andrew Sullivan just smacked you down himself, I don’t understand why it is so difficult to understand. They are cut off from a lot of communication. What better way to communicate support? Maybe they wouldn’t notice his blog (oh wait, they did…) but they might notice the people he influences. Ill paint my car green if there is just a glimmer of hope that it’ll help stop WWIII.

  173. 173
    jurassicpork says:

    I don’t see the harm in going green. It’s an easy way of showing solidarity. The important thing to remember is that Andrew is showing a more solid form of solidarity in devoting all his energies to what’s going on in Iran. Anyone with any pretenses to caring about democracy should.

    I just wish we’d done this ourselves over 8 years ago.

  174. 174
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @John127:

    Well, we could form a Blue State Strike Force to save the free and unfree from world domination by unsavory characters.

    Would you be willing to lead us on the Crusade?

    We only ask for Cheetos to give us strength.

  175. 175
    mattw says:

    To my mind, Obama is essentially agreeing with Sullivan– listen to that last bit. He is supporting the protesters without saying as much.

    And in response to the alleged “narcissism”, I wonder if the Republicans said the same thing about the “Ron Paul” kiddies. Or if Hillary Clinton thought something similar about the silly Howard Dean crap some guy named Obama engaged in…

  176. 176
    LD50 says:

    If you feel scolded perhaps you deserve it.

    No, I don’t feel scolded. And I’d wear green to help improve my attitude, but that would smack of too much effort.

  177. 177
    John127 says:

    @LD50: Before checking out Maddow, make sure to update your RSS feed on Gawker and Wonkette. There might be some stray glib remark about Dick Cheney that you wouldn’t want to forget to repeat as your own at the water cooler tomorrow.

    @Comrade Stuck: Who needs a Blue State Strike Force when you have sweet, precious irony to calm your insecurities and strawmen to compensate for your logical fallacies?!?

  178. 178
    Bertrand Russell says:

    God, the cynicism is sickening. You want to make fun of someone because he’s trying to show support to young Iranians fighting for freedom and democracy? Remember after 911 when thousand in Tehran held candle light vigils? These are those same people. We should support them any way we can. Don’t you remember being young? It’s people like you who tell us things will never change and so they don’t.

    The reddit.com alien was also green today.

  179. 179
    Doug says:

    Perhaps Sullivan’s show of solidarity is useless. After all, what can a simple change of color show? Sounds like those silly Europeans wearing red, white, and blue on 9/11. A completely meaningless and narcissistic gesture, right John?

  180. 180
    gbear says:

    Hello Sullivan tourists. Are you aware that Wonkette is linking to Sully too?

    WEAR GREEN WHILE WATCHING THIS ON TEEVEE

    Barack Obama is scheduled to hold a press conference with Italy’s leathery clown king, Silvio Berlusconi, at 5 p.m. today, to discuss Stuff. In other words, a bunch of reporters will harass him about Iran. His options are to either declare war on Iran or allow John McCain and Andrew Sullivan to do it themselves, on Twitter.

    Go for it. You have to register to leave comments there.

  181. 181
    some dude says:

    It really isn’t the green, it’s the mawkish self-obsessed tone and utter lack of humility in the face of the fact that no one knows what happened with the election and no one really knows what’s going on right now. Democracy! Whisky! Sexy!

  182. 182

    I’m with Sullivan.

  183. 183
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @John127:

    Who needs a Blue State Strike Force when you have sweet, precious irony to calm your insecurities and strawmen to compensate for your logical fallacies?!?

    Alright, we have a poetic wingnut with half a brain. And lecturing us on , what was it, “logical fallicies” . that is so precious after 8 years of stupid from Bush/Cheney.

    As far as irony goes, every time one of you idjits opens your mouth, we get flooded with it. Don’t you have some keyboard commando work to do?

  184. 184
    minachica says:

    Anyone notice RM’s shirt? I guess she’s just another poseur… :)

  185. 185
    Cataphract says:

    As a former military guy, 4 weeks without a haircut qualifies me as a DFH. Concurrently, my hair grows in such a fashion that at 4 weeks I swear my head starts to look like Ahmedinejad’s.

    So last Friday, needing a haircut anyway, I figured I would try to throw some luck to the Persians by getting my mop shorn.

    As you can see from the news, it had no effect whatsoever. Neither will wearing green.

  186. 186
    John127 says:

    @Comrade Stuck: I consider getting any of the commenters on this website to utter a sentence without a too-clever-by-half bon mot somewhere within it quite the accomplishment for a Monday afternoon. I do tremble when considering the prospect of you all attempting to form arguments when “Bush/Cheney” “wingnut” and “the last 8 years” aren’t available to you — for reasons of relevance or merely elapsed time — as stock fodder for your otherwise incoherent assertions.

  187. 187
    PaulW says:

    I’m still pissed about Tiannamen 20 years ago.

    I’m with Sullivan on this. We gotta do *something* for the Iranian people. I feel so damn impotent sitting here reduced to cheerleading while Iranians are dying for their freedom.

  188. 188
    Kyle Weaver says:

    Ha who cares… now you are just being self righteous in the other direction.

    I think this shit is important for them and the whole world. Crucify me if you want.

  189. 189
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @decklap:

    Smug smart-asses don’t have a long history of accomplishment in things that matter finally.

    You see, to me, a smug smartass doesn’t realize he/she is a blogger with a sense of power and superiority that doesn’t exist. And jumps around other blogs to scorn those who don’t measure up to their faux standards. I and others here have expressed our support for the reformers in Iran and that is about our limit of effectiveness with this medium. And I doubt mouthy platitudes that caring just a little harder will have much effect on the ground. I am certain in won’t.

  190. 190

    […] Uncategorized ·Tagged Andrew Sullivan, Civil Society, Iran, Solidarity Sullivan has been mocked a bit for the solidarity gestures he’s made (turning his site green, notably). Despite the […]

  191. 191
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @John127:

    You talk so pretty. Not like the other wingnuts.

    So ask a serious question and I will give a serious answer about Iran. I will likely be wrong like everyone else, but certainly serious.

  192. 192
    John127 says:

    @Comrade Stuck: if we are being serious here, which no one would appreciate more than myself, I would ask you the following question(s): do you think it is appropriate to conflate moderate, well-meaning measures of solidarity with the mindless aggressiveness of some neoconservatives? do you think any of the “tweets” from Iranian protestors within the country would suggest that they would appreciate such support, however symbolic (especially from the most highly trafficked one-man blog in this country)? Last, and most importantly, do you ever worry that (albeit merited) skepticism of American foreign policy and its capacity to alleviate international ills after the Bush years could go too far?

  193. 193
    Texas Dem says:

    We switched the color scheme in solidarity. Wear green if you can. They need to know we care.

    I agree with this sentiment. To show my solidarity, I’m going to paint my apartment green–walls, floors, ceilings, bathrooms, and all of the furniture. Also planning to install green carpeting, drapes, and lampshades. Will eat nothing but green foods and drink green beer, and I will wear green underwear and paint my hair green. And I’m searching the internet for green contact lenses. Top that, Andrew!!!

  194. 194

    I’m with Sullivan.

    I am, too, except the part about Obama wearing a green tie. Unless you have exactly the right shirt, a green tie looks hideous with a dark, presidential suit.

  195. 195
    bakum says:

    Maybe you guys have missed it but there was an actual COUP and now there’s a nascent REVOLUTION going on in Iran these days. I know you’ve been busy but perhaps you heard something about it?

    Anyway, if a little earnest passion makes you feel uncomfortable tell that to the cats being beaten and shot. I know for a fact (because I have communicated via Twitter) that there are some people participating in the protests and gatherings who are heartened by things like websites being changed to green. Think about the idea that maybe some silly show of support halfway around the globe will keep them going for even five more minutes and then think about your lame snark.

  196. 196
    LD50 says:

    LD50: Before checking out Maddow, make sure to update your RSS feed on Gawker and Wonkette. There might be some stray glib remark about Dick Cheney that you wouldn’t want to forget to repeat as your own at the water cooler tomorrow.

    Fight the power, dude!

  197. 197
    Texas Dem says:

    Sullivan’s trying to do good. What are the self satisfied wankers here doing? Taking a break before heading back to the porn?

    I only download porn on Fridays. Monday is devoted to on-line poker and occasional snark.

  198. 198
    Brachiator says:

    @NonyNony:

    Sometimes, the best course of action we can take is to just sit it out and hope that things work out without us. We can’t fix everything and we have a long history of poking our noses into places and making things worse instead of better. … And the world would actually probably be a lot better off if we did a better job of figuring out when our “interventions” would do more harm than good.

    Yep. Absolutely. There are hundreds of thousands of dead Rwandans who can testify to the value of the US – and the world — not getting involved.

    But it is easy to go back and forth on when interventions were positive, and when they had negative consequences. As I said, it’s complicated, but there is a difference between caution and moral cowardice.

    I have a soft spot for those foreigners, including Americans who fought against the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and who found a way to support the side of good in other conflicts.

    I don’t have much respect for people who do nothing, but who want to earn what? esteem or ethics moral points for thinking good thoughts about people trying to fight for freedom.

    Yeah, it’s an uphill battle. Practically every Chinese dissident from Tiananmen Square is still in jail, and the Chinese government won every victory that counts: the majority of Americans of all ideologies couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the crushing of democracy there or the imprisoned dissidents, and happily buy products made in China.

    This is clearly one of those times.

    Really?

    If the reform movement starts asking for our help I’ll change my mind.

    And what do you think that the people of Iran are doing by trying to get information out of the country about what is happening there?

    And if they did explicitly ask for your help in a manner that was unambiguous, then what would you do?

  199. 199
    Mike Damone says:

    “Sullivan’s humanity is showing, it’s so uncool!”

  200. 200
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @John127:

    .@John127:

    do you think it is appropriate to conflate moderate, well-meaning measures of solidarity with the mindless aggressiveness of some neoconservatives?

    Genuine concern is one thing, mindless cheerleading is yet another. Though I doubt many Iranians are currently reading BJ as you suggest, but let’s say they are for argument.

    From everything I’ve read, we have very very different cultures. Don’t you think it’s a little dangerous for us to cheerlead them on in the streets, making it possible for them to think we have a power to help them that we don’t. And then when 100’s or 1000’s of them get killed from a Tiennemien like massacre, then what.

    This isn’t a fucking ballgame where you get your pom poms out and cheer for yer team. It’s life and death AND WE CAN”T HELP them with blogging them to go for it. Whatever they decide, it should based on their own judgment from the situation on the ground. IN IRAN.

    I will say again< i Hope they realize their dreams for a better and democratic country. That is all I can responsibly provide.

  201. 201
    LD50 says:

    “Sullivan’s humanity is showing, it’s so uncool!”

    Yup, as Andrew would say, ‘true dat’.

  202. 202
    gbear says:

    @Brachiator:

    I don’t have much respect for people who do nothing, but who want to earn what? esteem or ethics moral points for thinking good thoughts about people trying to fight for freedom.

    So what exactly do you ‘do’ to fight for freedom? Can we have some specifics, please?

  203. 203
    Tom Violence says:

    Poster above got me curious… What did Sullivan have to say about the massive anti-war protests in 2003, in real time? I’d honestly like to know.

  204. 204
    TenguPhule says:

    There are hundreds of thousands of dead Rwandans who can testify to the value of the US – and the world—not getting involved.

    Did we radicalize Rwanda to hate our government because he helped issue a coup to overthrow their democracy and then threaten to destroy them for 8 years?

  205. 205
    b-psycho says:

    If I smoke some green is that enough?

  206. 206

    […] make much of a difference, but nothing I do will make much of a difference. And if it causes John Cole to sneer, well, that’s nothing new around here, anyway . . . […]

  207. 207
    TenguPhule says:

    I don’t have much respect for people who do nothing, but who want to earn what? esteem or ethics moral points for thinking good thoughts about people trying to fight for freedom.

    I didn’t see you take out Bush or Cheney yet.

  208. 208
    TenguPhule says:

    Sullivan’s trying to do good

    A self-circular jerk is not doing good. Let him get back to doing what he does best, suck conservative cock.

  209. 209
    gbear says:

    @Comrade Stuck: Thanks for that.

  210. 210
    TenguPhule says:

    Shorter Instapundit: 101st keyboard Commandos reporting for duty! Give us Cheetos or give us virtual death!

  211. 211
    Gilmore says:

    Fuck Andrew Sullivan. When I stood up for democracy in THIS country, he called me a traitor. I guess it’s all well and good for him to cheer on protestors in a faraway land now, and I’m sure he loves basking in comments like the ones here talking about how great he is for it. Fuck him, I hope he chokes on his green beer.

  212. 212
    John127 says:

    @Comrade Stuck: I must follow up: do you think that having zero coverage about the protests on the American blogosphere (or, God forbid, in the broadcast media) would be a preferable situation for the Iranian protestors?

  213. 213
    allie says:

    Obama’s remarks strike me as too vague. “It’s up to Iranians to decide?” They TRIED to do that, and their thug president interfered. Now people are being killed. Obama needed to say more.

  214. 214
    LD50 says:

    I must follow up: do you think that having zero coverage about the protests on the American blogosphere (or, God forbid, in the broadcast media) would be a preferable situation for the Iranian protestors?

    See here.

  215. 215
    NCReggie says:

    You should read Al Giordano’s take on this. Well worth a read. And what harm could wearing green do? These guys are getting killed after a fraudulent election. More than alot of people did after 2000 here.

  216. 216
    NCReggie says:

    this might just might be me being naive but hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets ain’t marching for status quo. Yea Mousavi has a lot of conservative connections but once the genie of expectations is let out of the bottle it aint goin back in. You honestly think that this is about Mousavi? Its started to go beyond him and to the theocracy itself. Watch how they’ll attempt to placate the masses but it aint happenin without substantial concessions to the protestors or massive amounts of blood being spilled by the regime to preserve the veneer of democracy they have.

  217. 217
    gbear says:

    @allie:

    Obama’s remarks strike me as too vague. “It’s up to Iranians to decide?”…Obama needed to say more.

    He spoke for over four minutes. He said a lot more than that. He also said that the whole world is watching. He said that the Iranian people’s voices should be heard and respected. He didn’t say ‘We got your back’ because he knows better than to throw out something that could be seen as a threat of invasion. Those days are over. We’ve got a leader who thinks about consequences now.

  218. 218
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @John127:

    : I must follow up: do you think that having zero coverage about the protests on the American blogosphere (or, God forbid, in the broadcast media) would be a preferable situation for the Iranian protestors?

    Now your being a obtuse smartalick . Of course I don’t think that. Get real or move on.

  219. 219
    John127 says:

    @LD50: If you had actually read the article that you posted, you would have realized it is ipso facto impossible to attack a straw man by posing an interrogative. Maybe that it is a bit pedantic on my part, but I got the distinct impression that you were somehow trying to be clever. I also worry that you are unable to write several sentences together at any one time and merely rove the internet posting links and block-quoting other people.

  220. 220
    Brachiator says:

    @gbear:

    So what exactly do you ‘do’ to fight for freedom? Can we have some specifics, please?

    What have I done, and what has my family done? There wouldn’t be much point talking about it because I could not provide proof with necessary specificity. I have this crazy thing about my personal privacy.

    But I can say that whatever I have done, it has rarely felt like I had done enough.

    And I would never (well, rarely) use a blog to call people to action. That would be a ridiculous contradiction in terms. But I would — and do — post here to attempt to challenge thinking.

    What are you here for?

    TenguPhule -Did we radicalize Rwanda to hate our government because he helped issue a coup to overthrow their democracy and then threaten to destroy them for 8 years?

    Ah. Yes. Other countries and people are only important in relation to us. It’s not about them, only us.

  221. 221
    John127 says:

    @Comrade Stuck: I was not trying to be either obtuse or a smartalick. I fail to see how Sullivan’s coverage of the events in Iran — including the alteration of the color of his masthead — is to be considered “cheerleading.” You also asserted that “we can’t help them” by blogging about it. I therefore asked the question that I did because I’m trying to probe the outer limits of your definition of “cheerleading.” You noticed, I hoped, that Sullivan explicitly did not want Obama to insert himself in the middle of the events over there. I don’t see how a private blogger providing nominal/symbolic support to an indigenous, democratic movement in Iran is to be labeled a dangerous provocateur in the manner that you apparently suggested.

  222. 222
    John says:

    You know what else is stupid? Old Glory. The Red White and Blue. What a gawdy mess that thing is. The fact that many around the world flew that flag on 911 meant nothing. Yup, that certainly didn’t make you twits feel at all like your fellow global citizens stood with you, did it now? (At least we did before your prez started with the lying and the torturing, and all that bullshit.)

    If going green on highly visible websites gives the Iranians a sense that they are not alone, that all is not helpless, that a bigger world welcomes their fight for democracy and peace, then go for it.

    Or sit on your fat asses like you did for most of this decade, because that certainly worked didn’t it now?

  223. 223
    LD50 says:

    : If you had actually read the article that you posted, you would have realized it is ipso facto impossible to attack a straw man by posing an interrogative. Maybe that it is a bit pedantic on my part, but I got the distinct impression that you were somehow trying to be clever. I also worry that you are unable to write several sentences together at any one time and merely rove the internet posting links and block-quoting other people.

    Bullshit.

    You are implying that we here think there should be no coverage about the protests on the ‘American blogosphere’. We made no such claim. Comment 218 makes the same point. Quit being such an obtuse, sanctimonious jackass.

  224. 224
    LD50 says:

    Or sit on your fat asses like you did for most of this decade, because that certainly worked didn’t it now?

    Please share with us your evidence that while you were saving the world, the rest of us were ‘sitting on our fat asses for most of this decade’.

  225. 225
    kay says:

    I agree with Cole here, and I’ll try to explain why.

    I read Sullivan’s great work, I think the protest is genuinely moving and brave, but I’m uncomfortable with “joining” the cause with so little risk.

    I’m pulling for them, but let’s be clear, my solidarity with them is abstract and, well, easy.

    What they’re doing is something altogether different than any abstract symbol-wearing protest I can muster, and I don’t want to kid myself about that. They are, actually, really doing this themselves.

    Maybe it has value, though. I honestly don’t know.

  226. 226
    dft says:

    When the inevitable violent crush of decent by the Iranian dictatorship comes, be sure to sit back sipping your pinot, and commend yourself for being so intellectually superior. For those people who died for their freedom while our President voted “present”, tough cheese. After all, it does not concern us and we should not bother lending any support – even if it is just in terms of moral support.

    Narcissism indead.

  227. 227
    John127 says:

    @LD50: I fail to see how defending individuals who are providing, however limited, their support to the protests in Iran renders me a sanctimonious jackass. I consider far more sanctimonious the individuals cheaply mocking the uselessness of such efforts — or, paradoxically, attempting to argue that they would only result in more deaths overseas.

  228. 228
    gbear says:

    @Brachiator:

    What are you here for?

    To stand up for Nony Nony a bit after you shit all over her. Small goals. I’m not here to change the world, I’m just here to listen and learn and enjoy and occasionally embarrass myself in the comments.

  229. 229
    John says:

    Exhibit A through Z

    With every single word out of his mouth, your former president sounded like a used car salesman. Half of your country ate whatever bullshit he and his partners fed them, while a significant number of the rest let him for fear of appearing un-American, or as some dirty hippie.

    Christ. You people even elected him twice. That’s like repeatedly stepping in the same pile of shit.

    But that really wasn’t the thrust of my argument. You’re focusing too much on my ad hominem attack. My point was that it’s silly to discount the impact wearing a colour can have on a group’s morale. You guys wave those little flags like mad during Veteran’s parades. So then how is it that using colour to show support works here, but not in a case like this?

    Sullivan’s gesture might not be a huge help, but it certainly can’t hurt if it makes Iranians feel like they’re supported.

  230. 230
    TenguPhule says:

    If going green on highly visible websites gives the Iranians a sense that they are not alone, that all is not helpless, that a bigger world welcomes their fight for democracy and peace, then go for it.

    And get them arrested and tortured to death for being puppets of the Great Satan.

    Because the Sullivans of the World who enabled the clusterfuck of Iraq should damn well sit down and shut up about Iran.

    We have no fucking moral high ground there. None.

    Prior American actions in the country were shameful and horrible. Rooting for any side would be counterproductive at this point given our history in the region.

  231. 231
    TenguPhule says:

    Ah. Yes. Other countries and people are only important in relation to us. It’s not about them, only us.

    Look Brach, if we wanted a Becking here we’d ask from Glenn himself.

    Only a complete fucking idiot would think any US intervention with Iran now would be a good idea.

    Prior administrations screwed the pooch good and hard over there. We don’t need another fuckup to set back reconciliation for another 20 years.

  232. 232
    gwangung says:

    When the inevitable violent crush of decent by the Iranian dictatorship comes, be sure to sit back sipping your pinot, and commend yourself for being so intellectually superior. For those people who died for their freedom while our President voted “present”, tough cheese. After all, it does not concern us and we should not bother lending any support – even if it is just in terms of moral support.
    Narcissism indead.

    Well, yes, you ARE narcissistic.

    When the Iranians themselves are saying, “We want your moral support, BUT DON’T STEP IN AND MAKE THINGS WORSE,” you’re pretty much being a self centered asshole by insisting on doing more.

    Folks are being pretty ill-informed by insisting that they know better than the Iranian people.

  233. 233
    TenguPhule says:

    So then how is it that using colour to show support works here, but not in a case like this?

    For starters, the US as a nation fucked Iran good and hard in the past.

    Showing support for them here would be about as well regarded as OBL showing support for the GOP here.

  234. 234
    Little Dreamer says:

    Well, I guess John’s comments created churn (the whole reason to do that, I think)…

    Since we have so many new folks on this site today, I guess it shows that the Iranian situation is getting coverage and traction (I’m glad to hear that, would be great if we were hearing from more Iranians here).

    I’m wearing green, as I got a new shirt, as I stated above. I hope those who are wanting democracy in Iran find it, and I’m still a regular at Balloon Juice and don’t appreciate those who have just discovered this place coming here and making assumptions about this site while knowing so little of the history of this place.

    We don’t all march in lockstep with John, and if you’ll notice, he states on the very top of every page that he’s “Consistently wrong since 2002” – so don’t lump all Balloon Juice posters into stupid posts here.

  235. 235
    gbear says:

    Sullivan’s gesture might not be a huge help, but it certainly can’t hurt if it makes Iranians feel like they’re supported.

    Yes it can. Go back and read@Comrade Stuck: . He made a good argument for not overplaying our support for them when we really CAN”T do anything to help them if they’re being shot at in the streets. Do you really want to sit safely at your keyboard and give them the pep talk that says go back out and fight when we have NO way of knowing what they’re really up against and NO way of providing cover for them?

  236. 236
    TenguPhule says:

    When the inevitable violent crush of decent by the Iranian dictatorship comes idiots like Sullivan will have made their job just that much easier by acting like morons.

    Corrected.

  237. 237
    Little Dreamer says:

    @TenguPhule:

    For starters, the US as a nation fucked Iran good and hard in the past.

    Absolutely. At the same time, my choosing to wear a green shirt isn’t going to have any affect on the power structure in Iran, only perhaps the morale of those wanting to change that power structure.

  238. 238
    TenguPhule says:

    so don’t lump all Balloon Juice posters into stupid posts here.

    Only the Diehard Republicans on this site are complete idiots.

    And the Iran interventionists.

    And wilfred.

    Rest of us are fairly decent.

  239. 239
    TenguPhule says:

    At the same time, my choosing to wear a green shirt isn’t going to have any affect on the power structure in Iran, only perhaps the morale of those wanting to change that power structure.

    Yes.

    But I *do* mind when people start acting like it’s the equivalent of standing out there in the streets with the Iranians.

    It’s just a feel good gesture and nothing to be trumpheted around. I think that’s what John Cole was trying to convey.

    In the larger scheme of things, it means jack shit.

    And when the same people try to pressure the White house to do something stupid, it only makes them look like idiots.

  240. 240
    Little Dreamer says:

    @TenguPhule:

    On Iran Interventionists:

    If I bought a new green shirt on Saturday and wanted to wear it (and would have even if this situation weren’t going on) and I believe in democracy and my thoughts are with those who are fighting for freedom, does that make me an interventionist? I am not so sure. I would think not, but… it’s so confusing.

  241. 241
    TenguPhule says:

    If I bought a new green shirt on Saturday and wanted to wear it (and would have even if this situation weren’t going on) and I believe in democracy and my thoughts are with those who are fighting for freedom, does that make me an interventionist?

    No.

    But it doesn’t help that Sullivan who is the “head”of this green pants party is also one of those who Wargasms.

  242. 242
    gwangung says:

    If I bought a new green shirt on Saturday and wanted to wear it (and would have even if this situation weren’t going on) and I believe in democracy and my thoughts are with those who are fighting for freedom, does that make me an interventionist? I am not so sure. I would think not, but… it’s so confusing.

    Hm. I don’t think you’re the one that’s confused.

  243. 243
    Steeplejack says:

    @TenguPhule:

    You forgot BOB.

  244. 244
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @John127:

    If you check the comments, I have had nothing to say about what Sullivan is doing. Though opinions are mixed here on him, I have none one way or another. And it is ludicrous to posit the Iranians are reading american blogs, for the simple reason sattelite signals are blocked in Iran.

    I was responding to your allegation that we weren’t being serious enough on this blog, and for argument sake, if the people there were reading us. I don’t agree that we should be encouraging them to carry on their protests is all. I think it would be reckless, if in fact they were interested in our opinion. We don’t have the right nor knowledge to encourage people to risk their lives half a world away, and for what. So we can feel like White Knights and purveyors of democracy. We’ve had enough of that shit the past eight years and a lot of innocent people are dead because of it.

    Here is what my limited knowledge is of the situation in Iran,

    1. There were no (d)emocrats running in the election. The candidates were allowed to run that had Theocratic ideals in a basic way. All of the (d)emocrat leaders in Iran are dead or rotting in some political prison.

    2. Mousavi is an intellectual and founder of the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and is no moderate by any stretch. The one thing he could provide is a little more social freedom for those who want it. And a lighter tone toward the west, which could be important at this time of tension. He will not stray from the Theocratic ideals that control Iran. And he will not concede one inch from Iran’s right to have an Islamic Atom bomb. And further, if you asked those who support him, many, if not most would say the same.

    The idea that what is at stake right now in Iran, is some kind of western style democracy is ludicrous, as it was in Iraq.

    3. And for the progressives out there, yes, Achmanijob is a nut, but if you ask the poor, he is their guy. Having at least tended to their needs to a degree no other Iranian president has lately.

    The point is, this isn’t some fantasy cagematch of democracy versus evil. Good guys versus bad. It is so incredibly complex and nuanced we can’t even begin to understand, or know what is best for Iran. IMHO.

  245. 245
    gbear says:

    At the same time, my choosing to wear a green shirt isn’t going to have any affect on the power structure in Iran, only perhaps the morale of those wanting to change that power structure.

    Get this into perspective. Nobody who’s ‘wanting to change the power structure in Iran’ gives a flying fuck about your shirt. The students who were shaking terrified in their dorm rooms last night while thugs smashed them and their shit are not less concerned about being shot tomorrow because you read their twitters. Sully is not going to be able to produce an army to rescue the folks that he is championing to charge into battle.

    He can marvel at what the citizens of Iran are doing to defend their elections, but the moment he tells them to fight on he’s risking massive amounts of their blood. And he doesn’t seem to see that.

  246. 246
    Little Dreamer says:

    @gbear:

    He can marvel at what the citizens of Iran are doing to defend their elections, but the moment he tells them to fight on he’s risking massive amounts of their blood. And he doesn’t seem to see that.

    Well, that’s where Sully and I differ, because I’m not egging them on to risk their lives, and for the record, I don’t twitter.

    I am marveling at what is going on, and my thoughts are on Iran today, but, I am not taking it any further than that.

  247. 247
    TenguPhule says:

    You forgot BOB.

    @Steeplejack

    I didn’t feel right insulting complete idiots that way.

  248. 248

    @Little Dreamer:

    I don’t know about the Iran thing but you looked marvelous in that green shirt.

  249. 249
    Little Dreamer says:

    @PeopleAreNoDamnGood:

    Thank you, I believe you picked it out (or at least helped). ;)

  250. 250
    Steeplejack says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Ah. Touché.

  251. 251
    tripletee (formerly tBone) says:

    @John:

    You know what else is stupid? Old Glory. The Red White and Blue. What a gawdy mess that thing is. The fact that many around the world flew that flag on 911 meant nothing. Yup, that certainly didn’t make you twits feel at all like your fellow global citizens stood with you, did it now?

    Thank God all of those countries flew the Stars and Stripes that day. Otherwise America might have launched a preemptive war on false pretenses, pursued torture as a legitimate intelligence gathering device, spied on its own citizens, and re-elected a barely literate dipshit fake cowboy after a continuous four-year clusterfuck that alienated the rest of the world.

    Your example, I do not think it means what you think it means.

  252. 252
    Jared says:

    This post is disappointing. That you’d waste readers time sneering at people for caring about what’s happening in Iran is truly amazing. If people are moved by what’s happening in Iran and want to express solidarity by wearing green or changing the colors of their website, what’s the problem? How is that a bad thing? Your point about wanting to see evidence that wearing green is going to effect change in Iran totally misses the point, which is surprising coming from such a well-known blogger. But I bet you feel pretty cool and above-it-all. Good for you.

  253. 253
    gbear says:

    @PeopleAreNoDamnGood:
    @Little Dreamer:

    Now your talkin’ good reasons to wear a green shirt… ;)

  254. 254
    gbear says:

    @tripletee (formerly tBone):

    Can I add that we also set up torture facilities in some of the countries that flew those American flags, and started denigrating some of the other countries that flew our flag as ‘old’ and unimportant to us.

  255. 255
    tripletee (formerly tBone) says:

    @gbear:

    Can I add

    Only if you’re using a green font, pal.

  256. 256
    gbear says:

    @tripletee (formerly tBone): Damn. Tough crowd here. Must be time to go to bed.

  257. 257

    Yes it can. Go back and read@Comrade Stuck: . He made a good argument for not overplaying our support for them when we really CAN”T do anything to help them if they’re being shot at in the streets. Do you really want to sit safely at your keyboard and give them the pep talk that says go back out and fight when we have NO way of knowing what they’re really up against and NO way of providing cover for them?

    It seems to me that a lot of them have already chosen to fight. It isn’t about me egging them on. It’s about the fact that they are taking these actions on their own, and I want to do whatever tiny thing I can to support them, or at least show my support. All of this handwringing about maybe getting them killed is beyond condescending. They are real people, capable of making real decisions, and if they choose to accept risk in this cause, I’m not to blame. I don’t get the credit, either. That’s theirs.

    I will say that I think that they have chosen this route is a good thing. I will continue to say that even if the government comes back and crushes them. Was it a bad thing that the Poles launched the Solidarity movement in 1979, because the government imposed martial law the next year and busted a *lot* of heads? The Poles I’ve talked to sure as hell don’t think so. The shipyards in Gdansk are practically a shrine to the movement.

    Frankly, this whole line of argument on your part is insulting. Talk about someone who thinks this is all about us, and what we do. They Iranians are the actors here, and perfectly capable of deciding to protest without being egged on by Americans.

  258. 258

    Get this into perspective. Nobody who’s ‘wanting to change the power structure in Iran’ gives a flying fuck about your shirt. The students who were shaking terrified in their dorm rooms last night while thugs smashed them and their shit are not less concerned about being shot tomorrow because you read their twitters. Sully is not going to be able to produce an army to rescue the folks that he is championing to charge into battle.

    Then it’s a funny thing that the idea of people around the world wearing green as a show of support originally CAME FROM THE IRANIAN DEMONSTRATORS THEMSELVES. If no one there gave a flying fuck about what we were wearing, why would they have asked? If no one in Iran could or is reading Sullivan’s blog during this, why are they mentioning it on Twitter or in phone calls to the rest of the world? The government is trying to shut down communications links, but they haven’t been terribly successful. There’s a post over at Obsidian Wings that gets into a discussion about the technical reasons why it is unlikely that they will ever succeed completely. So, they are reading us.

    There is also a mindless conflation of the idea that direct intervention by the US government and the idea of individual Americans making a demonstration of support. It shows an ignorance about the Iranians. As a group, they tend to like Americans. We actually have a lot more in common with them than most Americans realize.

    Obama, and elected officials, should take exactly the line that he is, and remain completely non-committal on the question of who won the election. Anything else would be resented. The rest of us, as individuals, wearing green is not in the same category. That’s not forcing the Iranians into doing anything. That’s telling the people in the streets that we approve of the choice that *they* have made.

    So, I’m doing it, because I do approve of the choice that they have made. Yeah, it’s cheap and easy to do (except that I’m running out of short-sleeved green shirts, and if I have to go to the long-sleeved ones in this weather, it will be unpleasant; the horror!), but, to me, that makes the ridicule of doing it even more silly. You can make fun of the attitude of some of the people following Sullivan, which I admit is annoying, without painting quite so broadly.

  259. 259
    Hemi says:

    Actually, John, you’re not entirely correct. One of the most important tools available to a minority or under-powered group attempting to create reform in an authoritarian setting is what is known as the “boomerang effect”. Rather than trying to push ideas into government from within, activists create pressure OUTSIDE of the country by reaching out to activist networks who push the issue into their own political sphere, and then from there, it becomes an international norm and creates pressure on the regime in question. Wearing green may be largely futile in the short run, but it promotes awareness, solidarity, and a norm of opposing this sort of behavior. If (probably when, but let’s be optimistic) the government gets the people out of the streets (or kills enough of them that it is no longer safe to be in the streets, which is much more likely), the political capital that reform groups will have created outside of Iran might well come into play. Certainly, it isn’t hurting anyone, and it IS making a lot of people who feel helpless in the face of a very frustrating situation feel better.
    .
    International pressure has been helpful in the past (see: South Korea, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Georgia), when pro-Democracy groups took to the street in other authoritarian countries. It has two roles: first, it means that the authoritarian regime is being watched, and knows it. That makes it harder to take violent action against protesters, for fear of international retaliation. Second, it creates activist networks who can provide services. In this case, it has been DDOS attacks on government servers (although it is being advised that this slows down the whole Iranian infrastructure and is counterproductive) and the provision of a large number of Proxy servers and information dispersal networks that have helped keep Iranians in contact. If you really want to be effective in helping out, and aren’t just sneering to make yourself feel better, set up proxies for twitterers and info sources.
    .
    Of course, that doesn’t mean that we should in any way display either a desire to engage with the outside world and make it a better place, or (God forbid) show solidarity for the downtrodden and oppressed. That would fly right in the face of the oldest American tradition of ignorance and self-righteous xenophobia! The rest of the world can go to hell. We need another Tienanmen every few years to remind us of our moral superiority!

  260. 260
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Only a complete fucking idiot would think any US intervention with Iran now would be a good idea.

    When would it be a good idea? Ever? Never?

    In point of fact, I never called for US intervention in Iran. But I think that this apparent consensus for a kind of liberal isolationism is misguided and insufficient. And the idea that we have no business even commenting on the Iranian elections is certainly being thrown in our faces by the mullahs, and we should definitely base our thinking and actions on their corrective wisdom:

    The Iranian government views the BBC as a symbol of western corruption, so few supporters of President Ahmadinejad get in touch. Khalid Tehrani is one of them and emailed his dissatisfaction with the reformist protesters:

    “This election was as fair and independent as it could be in any western country. The people who claim vote rigging should look first into the election of George W Bush in 2000 and how it was stolen from Al Gore. The West is a sore loser when it comes to the result of a democracy which is against its wishes.”

    gbearThe students who were shaking terrified in their dorm rooms last night while thugs smashed them and their shit are not less concerned about being shot tomorrow because you read their twitters.

    Of course, some of them are far more brave than you give them credit for (from the earlier link):

    Tweets revealed some of people’s fears. A few hours ahead of the big rally in Tehran, Change_for_Iran tweeted: “There are now rumours of Mousavi’s site being hacked and the whole rally is IRG’s [Iranian Revolutionary Guards] trap. Gun placements at Azadi Square confirmed”.

    A few minutes later he signed off: “It’s worth taking the risk, we’re going.”

  261. 261
    Jen R says:

    @J. Michael Neal: Great comments, thanks.

  262. 262
    Tattoosydney says:

    @gbear:

    Monday is furry animals night.

    The most magical night of the week.

  263. 263
    Tattoosydney says:

    Add me to the “If the students are asking for it then I will do it” camp.

    It may be pointless, and no one may ever see that I have changed my icon on Facebook or Tripadvisor to green, but there’s not much else I can do.

    As for the comments that we don’t know if Mousavi is “better” than Ahmadinejad – I’ll take religious leader who doesn’t like me but thinks that women should have rights over religious leader who wants me to die any day.

  264. 264
    gwangung says:

    I think I’ll go with John’s original assessment that making a big deal over moral support is making it more about us. Making a big, noisy display of support is rather Pharisee-like; and it’s more in tune with neo-con politics, where the big and showy takes the place of competent and effective.

    From the perspective of the protestors, I think quiet is just as good as splashy; it’s a show that they can use with the government to say that the world is watching.

    And let’s not forget the odd demographics of Iran. With a median age of 26, it’s a bit of a disservice to consider the dissidents as “mere” students. This is inevitably the next ruling class of Iran, the actual heirs to power–that gives their concerns a little more weight, I think.

  265. 265
    TenguPhule says:

    When would it be a good idea?

    After we’ve rehabilitated our image in Iran for a start. And when they ask for it.

    How fucking stupid do you want to play, Brach?

    *OUR CIA HELPED OVERTHROW THEIR PRIOR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IN A COUP!!*

    Obama is doing the right thing by not making a bad situation worse.

  266. 266
    TenguPhule says:

    International pressure has been helpful in the past (see: Zimbabwe,

    five billion percent inflation is helpful?

    Last I checked, the shitheel party with their sheepdick dictator still rules the place.

  267. 267
    Tattoosydney says:

    @J. Michael Neal:
    @J. Michael Neal:

    Well said, JMN. You nailed it in both of those posts.

  268. 268
    Hemi says:

    TenguPhule

    five billion percent inflation is helpful?

    Last I checked, the shitheel party with their sheepdick dictator still rules the place

    International pressure was part of the reason that South African refused to admit the Chinese ships carrying weapons for the police in Zimbabwe.

    Also, if you were paying attention, you might have noticed the fact that a coalition government has gone into place. The situation isn’t that much better, but steps have been taken and continue to be taken.

    But don’t let facts get in your way or anything.

  269. 269
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    After we’ve rehabilitated our image in Iran for a start.

    Which means what? Re-education camps for neo-cons?

    Our image in the world is not a single thing.

    And when they ask for it.

    Now, you’re talking. And as J. Michael Neal has pointed out, the Iranian protesters are asking for our moral support.

    How fucking stupid do you want to play, Brach? OUR CIA HELPED OVERTHROW THEIR PRIOR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IN A COUP!!

    Wow! Who knew? Gee, I’ve written about US interference in the Middle East and Asia. You wanna talk about the US role in Bangladesh’s battle for independence? Hint: the US backed the wrong side.

    I’ve also made note of the pointless over-simplification that looks only at US meddling and ignores other nations’ acting in their national interest.

    And as I have noted before, this is a complex issue, and one that is not simplistically calling for US intervention. You waste time trying to put me into this box.

    Obama is doing the right thing by not making a bad situation worse.

    I also presume that Obama has the State Department doing a lot of back channel work.

  270. 270
    josh maurice says:

    “warblogger circa 2003 vibe”
    One difference is that pretty much all bloggers are now on the same side. Plenty in 2003 were for the invasion of Iraq and plenty against.

    The administration official who said “it is not about us” could have been referring to the U.S. government, rather than the people. And it does seem prudent for the U.S. government to keep its nose out of this. But you and I are not the government, and it is definitely about us.

    It’s just possible that the regime could actually fall within a few days or weeks (Andrew Sullivan published a manifesto being passed around the resistance demanding constitutional reform, freeing of all political prisoners, and removal of both Ahmadinejad and supreme leader Khamenei), which would significantly affect the Israel-Palestine equation (Netanyahu in his speech a couple days ago named “the Iranian threat” as the first of “three immense challenges” that Israel faces), and any breakthrough in the Israel-Palestine conflict would seem to be very good news for world peace.

    We’re not just “cover[ing] events”, but participating in them, to a much greater extent than in 2003. Many of us are crashing the Iranian government websites, passing along proxy server addresses to Iranians, giving them encouragement, advice, whatever kinds of strategic support we can provide, through a much expanded use of social networks like Twitter and of the Internet in general.

    A difference between boxers and blogs is that lots of people see your blog (apparently, with 269 comments on this post). Changing the color scheme may or may not be worth the hassle, but there are other things we can do too.

  271. 271
    jac says:

    Let’s see if I have this straight. Insty is a fool for doing something even if it is meaningless, but you aren’t doing anything at all and that is better?

    I’m going out on a limb here and betting Insty knows that it’s all about them. Nice that you are out there waving the flag and declaring anything anyone else may do as worthless because it makes you feel like they are posturing for attention. But then, isn’t that exactly what you douche bags are doing?

  272. 272
    Ryan says:

    @gbear

    It was one of the greatest acts of political theater since Gandhi’s march to the sea. Why do you ask?

  273. 273
    Mr. Peabody says:

    “If someone can give me one legitimate piece of evidence that wearing green boxers is going to help bring democracy to Iran, so help me I’ll wear plaid from head to toe and shoot for world peace.”

    It’s called symbolism, John. Alone in a crowd it is meaningless, but collectively it can serve as powerful message not only to the mullahs in Iran but to our feckless leaders in Washington who are bending over backwards to distance themselves from the courage exhibited by unarmed citizens on the streets of Tehran.

  274. 274
    The Masked Marvel says:

    Andrew Sullivan can write all the manifestos he wants, but he is a self-righteous douchebag that doesn’t deserve to be listened to. Why does anybody take him seriously? He called me ignorant, traitor, and said he’d get the last laugh when I protested against his wargasm in ’03. He ridiculed opponents, assured us he was a “serious” man who really knew what he was talking about, and stood shoulder-to-shoulder with war criminals. Sully then got mad at me b/c I didn’t believe the felling of Saddam’s statue was anything more than a stage-managed charade for tv cameras. That time he stood with war criminals at home, and stooges and useful idiots abroad. And now I’m supposed to be impressed that Keyboard Kommando and his Catholic “Just War” pieties can be excused away because this time – this time! – the narcissist is running hyperactive Twitter feeds in green? Really? Or am I missing something, and Sully’s Green Revolution is simply another selfish drumbeat for Uncle Sam to attack the brown man?

  275. 275

    […] kids should be supported, of course, but posts like this from Andrew only reinforce my earlier comments about the 2003 warblogger vibe and rampant […]

  276. 276

    […] such, I’m sympathetic to John Cole in thinking that the rabid coverage of the Iranian election controversy by enthusiastic American […]

  277. 277
    Dream On says:

    @MattF: Mr. Hammer, meet Mr. Nail.

    “It looks like we’re seeing some answers to the question of what ‘new media’ news will look like when the old media die off—and it’s not good. Incoherent, rumors instead of news, waves of emotion. Readers in the virtual worlds get to choose what reality they prefer. And later, if they’re honest, regrets.”

  278. 278
    orange monkey says:

    Sully is a gasbag who never saw a crisis where he didn’t rush to judgment and get it wrong while the ink’s still drying. He’s probably admiring himself in the mirror wearing his new green Speedoes, pretending he’s changing the world. Wasn’t surprised to see Instatapundit joining him in solidarity. Bill Kristol’ll be on board the bandwagon any minute now…

  279. 279
    Dream On says:

    As a straight male, I did not and will not wear green as it is difficult to color-coordinate. It could make my appearance comical to the eyes of others.

    Know Style.

  280. 280
    Observer says:

    Nothing more fun than a blogger who daily posts updates on his pet’s latest BM calling another blogger narcissistic… ;-)

  281. 281
    Matt says:

    I get your point that wearing green will do nothing concrete for the people of Iran. But it can (if you let people know why you are wearing green) help lift awareness of the situation in America. I was surprised to walk around my office yesterday and nobody else was following what was going on. They wanted to know why I had green on (I never wear green). I changed my Facebook profile pic to green and I had 30 people ask me why. So those two small acts helped raise awareness and for now that is all most of us can do. Last point- can it hurt?

  282. 282

    […] 16, 2009 by Lee I fully endorse this […]

  283. 283
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mr. Peabody

    Hey idiot, the Iranians haven’t forgotten the *last time* we interfered with their internal affairs.

  284. 284
    TenguPhule says:

    Also, if you were paying attention, you might have noticed the fact that a coalition government has gone into place. The situation isn’t that much better, but steps have been taken and continue to be taken.

    I reiterate, the sheepdick is still in charge and his shitheels still run the country. The “coalition” is in name only.

    The situation has not improved and it’s probably going to get worse when the chloria gets out of hand.

  285. 285
    TenguPhule says:

    One difference is that pretty much all bloggers are now on the same side. Plenty in 2003 were for the invasion of Iraq and plenty against.

    Wrong again.

    One side is acting rationally, the other is being led by Sullivan and his dancing monkeys in a Mel Gibson matyr screed.

  286. 286
    John says:

    Oh, JC. No need for kale, spinach or peas. You’re so green with envy at what Sullivan is doing, you’ve already made yourself an unwitting supporter.

  287. 287
    TenguPhule says:

    Our image in the world is not a single thing.

    Our image in Iran matters for both present and future dealings with them.

    We don’t need yet another Iraq.

  288. 288

    […] has discussed the narcissism and self-absorption at the heart of the greening of the warblogosphere and Jeff Golberg, of all people, sums up the actual situation quite […]

  289. 289

    […] Cole is also not too enthusiastic about coloring everything green: If someone can give me one legitimate piece of evidence that wearing green boxers is going to help […]

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] Cole is also not too enthusiastic about coloring everything green: If someone can give me one legitimate piece of evidence that wearing green boxers is going to help […]

  2. […] has discussed the narcissism and self-absorption at the heart of the greening of the warblogosphere and Jeff Golberg, of all people, sums up the actual situation quite […]

  3. […] 16, 2009 by Lee I fully endorse this […]

  4. […] such, I’m sympathetic to John Cole in thinking that the rabid coverage of the Iranian election controversy by enthusiastic American […]

  5. […] kids should be supported, of course, but posts like this from Andrew only reinforce my earlier comments about the 2003 warblogger vibe and rampant […]

  6. […] make much of a difference, but nothing I do will make much of a difference. And if it causes John Cole to sneer, well, that’s nothing new around here, anyway . . . […]

  7. […] Uncategorized ·Tagged Andrew Sullivan, Civil Society, Iran, Solidarity Sullivan has been mocked a bit for the solidarity gestures he’s made (turning his site green, notably). Despite the […]

  8. […] Also, I’ll Have Kale, Spinach and Peas For Dinner God love Sullivan, because I know his heart is in the right place: We switched the color scheme in solidarity. Wear green if you can. They need to know we care. […]

  9. […] I think I’m with Sullivan on this one. I understand why John Cole thinks it’s bogus/narcissitic, and yes this revolution in Iran is ultimately about them. But he’s wrong to think it’s […]

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