Your Sunday Morning Sermon

Courtesy of a Red State diary:

It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom. He would’ve done the same to save his Dad, or any one of His disciples. For that matter, He even died to save all humans.

It’s obvious He would not be happy with those who voted for the candidate who kills because it’s above his “pay grade” to know if they’re alive. Checking the Commandments, killing innocents is against the 5th. Because pro-aborts don’t know for sure life does not exist at conception, they are still willing to risk that it’s not killing.

And there you have it- Red State has the answer to the question “WWJD.” The answer, of course, is he would waterboard.

The Onion has got nothing on these guys.

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225 replies
  1. 1
    demkat620 says:

    C’mon didn’t you know the real golden rule:

    Waterboard your neighbor before they teabag you.

    That’s from the Sermon on the Undisclosed Location.

  2. 2
    StonyPillow says:

    But I say unto you, That ye resist evil: and whosoever ye shall smite on the right cheek, smite him on the other also.

  3. 3
    MikeJ says:

    It’s like they never even read that book they claim to like so much. If redstate is to be believed, Gandhi was a better christian than Jesus.

  4. 4
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom. He would’ve done the same to save his Dad, or any one of His disciples. For that matter, He even died to save all humans.

    It’s the “for that matter” that makes it art.

    Jesus would have water boarded himself, if it saved the rest of us!

    So for example let’s say there’s this ticking time bomb, maybe like the holy hand grenade, since we’re talking about the olden days, and only Jesus knows when and where it will go off. Okay? Then Jesus, since he wants to save humanity, has to get himself to talk, right? So would anyone say that he shouldn’t do whatever it takes, even if that means torturing himself, to get that information??

    It’s really not a very difficult argument once you just go completely insane.

  5. 5
    DougJ says:

    In the haste to stop the killing of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust, thousands of Christians signed up to go and fight.

    It sounds like he’s saying that haste caused them to do something foolish.

  6. 6

    @MikeJ: I think he was. I heard Jesus was jewish.

  7. 7
    Bostondreams says:

    @DougJ:

    And of course it ignores the fact that Christians had a huge role in allowing the Holocaust to happen. Poland wasn’t pagan, ya know, and neither were Germans. And of course, our wonderful ‘Christian’ country turned away Jews by the boatload.
    Ignorance of history ought to be a crime.

  8. 8
    noncarborundum says:

    For that matter, He even died to save all humans.

    Because, as we all know, sacrificing oneself for the sake of others is on a moral par with torturing people. Or, to judge from that “for that matter”, perhaps even worse.

  9. 9
    MattF says:

    One more item for the “inscrutable Gentiles” folder. And… really, there’s no need to try to explain it.

  10. 10
    Apsaras says:

    So, wait, Jesus would waterboard someone to save his Dad?

    “Jesus, there’s a bomb planted in Heaven! If it goes off it’ll kill God! Waterboard that pharisee, we are RUNNING out of TIME!”

  11. 11
    Tara the antisocial social worker says:

    Irony has died more times than Lazarus with these loons.

  12. 12
    aimai says:

    I love this “Jesus is really the guy from Die Hard” version of history. It explains so much about right wing religiosity.

    aimai

  13. 13
    El Cid says:

    Is there a scene in this movie where Jesus manages to roll away the stone and leap out of the cave just in time for the bomb to go off and a fireball follow him out as he tumbles through the air toward the screen, shown 3 times in a row from different angles?

  14. 14
    Mari says:

    Wait – protecting his Dad? The terrorists have weapons that can take down the Almighty now? AWESOME.

  15. 15
    smiley says:

    Lest we forget, this is their Jesus.

  16. 16

    Onward christian soldiers!

  17. 17
    noncarborundum says:

    @aimai:
    Jesus is the guy from “Die Hard”? Gee, I am so behind. I thought Jesus was a Cheetoh.

  18. 18
    South of I-10 says:

    I must have missed this part in Catholic school. Was there a waterboarding related miracle?

  19. 19
    El Cid says:

    Will Gospels II: With Malice Toward Some be directed by McG, or will it be Michael Bay?

  20. 20

    On Jesus and his mother: Jesus was so nice to his mom that he would never deny she was who she was, right? RIGHT?

    Matthew 12:46-50
    12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
    12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
    12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
    12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
    12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

  21. 21
    TR says:

    Conan the Barbarian, Jesus the Nazarean, same difference.

  22. 22
    mclaren says:

    No, THIS is Jesus. The guy on the right.

    He’s wearing a bandolier of M16 clips too, but it’s below the fold.

  23. 23
    El Cid says:

    “So. You won’t talk, eh? Well, I may have come to fulfill the laws, but not even my Father said I couldn’t stretch a bit. Welcome to my enhanced parables, mother f***er!”

    “I… I don’t know anything… I promise, I go to temple every now and then… What do you want?”

    “I’ve got this pottery jug full of water, and my, erm, ‘disciples’, will make sure you stay on this reclining board until you answer me a few questions.”

    “What? What about? I’m just a peasant, I don’t know anything.”

    “I’ll be the judge of that. Who do you say that I am?”

    “I dunno, a street preacher or something?”

    “Do it.”

    “Aarrgh glurble *cough* glurble.”

    “Enough. Now, I’m gonna ask you one more time — and if you don’t answer right, one more time, and one more time, and one more time again. Who… Do… You… Say… That… I… AM???”

  24. 24
    flounder says:

    I want to know where he weighs in on Yoo’s testicle crushing scenario.

  25. 25
    kay says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    That’s how I always saw it. That the whole point was no special family treatment.

    I remember that, vaguely, from “VBS” (vacation bible school).

    I did pick that up, in between gazing out the window, fidgeting and wondering when snack was going to be served.

  26. 26
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    Something more directly related from scripture:

    “And the Lord spake, saying, ‘First shalt thou take out the Holy Waterboard. Then, shalt thou count to 183 , no more, no less. 183 shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be 183. 184 shalt thou not count, nor either count thou 182, excepting that thou then proceed to 183. 185 is right out. Once the number 183, being the 183rd number, be reached, then pourest thou the holy water onto…..’”

  27. 27
    Apsaras says:

    Also, if Jesus did it, wouldn’t it technically be WineBoarding?

  28. 28
    El Cid says:

    Jesus makes it extra scary by standing atop the water before the torture starts.

  29. 29

    @mclaren:

    You have to admit the circular curving on the design, the smile, the laughing child and the writing for the example on the right as opposed to the sort of evil looking stare and the hard straight lines on the left one, for someone who is not understanding of the debate I can see where would probably choose the guy on the right.

  30. 30
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @El Cid:

    “Enhanced miracle techniques”

    Well he produced the loaves and the fishes, sure, but he and his crew had to strong-arm an entire fish market and several bakeries to get the stuff, of course. I mean what do you think he is, a miracle worker?

  31. 31
    dmsilev says:

    It’s much too early in the morning to submit myself to the RedState comment section, so a question to anyone with the intestinal fortitude to read through it: Did anyone over there try to dispute this …interesting interpretation of the Gospels?

    -dms

  32. 32
    Redhand says:

    It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom. He would’ve done the same to save his Dad, or any one of His disciples.

    Dick Cheney as a Christlike figure. Now that really takes the cake.

    Assholes!

  33. 33

    @kay:

    I’m just trying to figure out why Jesus would waterboard in defense of Mary when he couldn’t even admit she was his mother. According to Jesus words, Mary apparently isn’t or wasn’t his mother.

  34. 34
    The Cheesemaker says:

    Checking the Commandments,…

    Well, see, there’s your problem; you’re in the wrong section. Try checking the Beatitudes. There you go.

  35. 35
    El Cid says:

    By the way, I realize that this is all just fiction anyway, but, wasn’t Jesus supposed to be magic anyway? Driving out demons from the possessed, healing the sick, causing fruit trees to rot… Couldn’t Jesus of Nazareth, purported son of God and ultra-magic dude, come up with something a bit more influential than waterboarding? I dunno, threaten to cause a man’s weenie to shrivel, or that from now on everything would smell like sh*t and taste of ass and burn like acid to his skin? Or conversely, offer the ‘buy’ the man off by making him young and handsome or rich or something, or that all his crops would be bountiful or the like?

  36. 36
  37. 37
    Tim F. says:

    I must have missed this part in Catholic school. Was there a waterboarding related miracle?

    I recall a ton of saintmaking involving torture. Does that count?

  38. 38
  39. 39
    Woody says:

    The Red State guys are dripping dicks. These fuckers are the ones you gotta worry about…

  40. 40
    bago says:

    Didn’t all of the disciples die rather horrible deaths save for John, who merely went crazy in exile?

    Besides, they really need to learn about Raptor Jesus.

  41. 41

    @bago:

    Well, if you believe the Catholic church, Peter died on a crucifix, upside down – yet, there is no proof he was ever in Rome, or ever became a bishop of Rome.

    Somehow I keep thinking perhaps he died safe and warm in his bed, next to his wife. Of course, I have no proof of that either, but it’s more plausable than what Rome would have you believe.

  42. 42
    Martian Buddy says:

    Torture involves extreme physical pain or even death, such as the cutting off of appendages, gouging of eyes, use of shredders to the body, electrical shock—you name it. Blood is usually involved.

    They’ve reinvented the Inquisition’s definition of torture — “it’s okay as long as you don’t make ’em bleed.”

    Interestingly, all three terrorists are walking around today with their digits intact, tongues attached, and none the worse physically or mentally.

    (Italicized emphasis added.)

    They also seem to be fond of lying for Jesus Cheney.

  43. 43
    CapMidnight says:

    Apsaras
    Also, if Jesus did it, wouldn’t it technically be WineBoarding?

    He also walked on waterboards.

  44. 44
    oh really says:

    But you’ve missed the best part. Roetenks says:

    It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom.

    Then, the first commenter responds with:

    I was with you up until you told me Jesus would support waterboarding.

    Roetenks, from his perch in a parallel (or is perpendicular?) universe comes back in grand RedState fashion:

    Dave, You need to get certain things right. No where was it said that Jesus would approve waterboarding.

    Naturally, to strengthen his unassailable position, he follows with:

    Putting Jesus in those circumstances would probably never happen. But if He WAS, he would be for saving the lives of all those that would be killed during the Second Wave.

    He would also be for saving the life of every child aborted. Knowing Jesus personally, if He had no other choice, He would always be for the saving of a life–no matter how guilty.

    Well, how can anyone argue with that? First, he says Jesus would likely have approved (performed?) waterboarding if it would save his MOM! Then, he claims never to have said Jesus would have supported waterboarding. And, finally, he repeats that because he knows Jesus personally he knows that Jesus would always be for saving a life…even if it required waterboarding. He doesn’t write that last bit, and I guess in his padded cell if you don’t explicitly mouth the words, no one can say that’s what your statement obviously means.

    You simply can’t make this stuff up.

    I’m curious, would Jesus favor waterboarding a mother whose life was at risk if she gives birth in order to force her to refuse having an abortion?

    I can hardly wait until roetenks reveals to us how his BFF Jesus would feel about collateral damage.

    It is worth reading on in the comments. Roetenks is obviously from “Opposite Land” where the truth is always the opposite of the truth.

  45. 45

    […] pearls of wisdom from that bastion of politicized Christianist exceptionalism (h/t John Cole): It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom. He […]

  46. 46
    Tsulagi says:

    @Mari:

    Wait – protecting his Dad? The terrorists have weapons that can take down the Almighty now? AWESOME.

    During the 178th waterboarding of KSM we learned of AQ’s ability and plans to plant ticking time bombs and/or IEDs in Heaven that could penetrate even the armor of His Godmobile. They would be smuggled in by recently deceased operatives posing as Christian converts.

    And leftist Allah appeasers thought there wasn’t actionable intelligence gained from torture. There’s your proof. To save the Supreme Dad, would it now be irresponsible not to consider wholesale preventive waterboarding? I think not.

  47. 47
    pablo says:

    It’s pretty presumptuous to put words in the mouth of Jesus!
    I think that poster just bought a ticket straight to Hell!

  48. 48
    LD50 says:

    The world now awaits someone creating a sketch of Jesus waterboarding someone, done in that overwrought 1950s Catholic style. (I’m thinking like that famous pic of Jeebus cradling the baby t-rex.) Any volunteers?

  49. 49
    HyperIon says:

    @kay:

    I did pick that up, in between gazing out the window, fidgeting and wondering when snack was going to be served.

    Haha! What I remember best about VBS was the punch (hawaiian?) and cookies (very plain). so…were you raised Southern Baptist? i thought that only THEY did VBS.

  50. 50
    geg6 says:

    Somewhat coincidentally, I am watching Jesus Camp on A&E.

  51. 51
    AhabTRuler says:

    Yeah, this is why Sunday always sucked so much compared to Saturday. Hmmm, cartoons, or bullshit? Cartoons, or bullshit?

    Tough choice.

    Also: To bring together this and the next thread: The NEW Agent Jesus(TM).

  52. 52
    LD50 says:

    In the haste to stop the killing of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust, thousands of Christians signed up to go and fight.

    There’s so much wrong with this statement I don’t know where to begin. First, when Americans enlisted in the Military in WW2, no one in the West knew the extent of the holocaust, and that *certainly* wasn’t the reason they enlisted — the big motivator was Pearl Harbor. When US troops liberated a few camps, their scale came as a total shock. Second, most of the concentration camps (including all the largest ones) were actually liberated by the RED ARMY, a supposedly atheistic force. Third, does anyone want to guess at the religion of the people who actually *carried out* the Holocaust? And finally, these fine Christians signing up to ‘stop the Holocaust’ didn’t actually stop it, remember?

  53. 53
    jvill says:

    Checking the Commandments, killing innocents is against the 5th.

    So… Did the writer just damn all of RedState to hell for supporting the Iraq war which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents in an unprovoked war?

    The weatherman said today was medium levels of pollen and RedState hypocrisy, but to expect it to get worse on Memorial Day.

  54. 54

    Maybe I am late to this party, but Colin Powell is kicking ass and taking names today on Face the Nation.

    I sure would like to have this guy in the D party.

  55. 55
  56. 56
    Beej says:

    @HyperIon: Hey, VBS is omnipresent in Protestantism! I did my time there at the United Methodist Church.

  57. 57
    Dave C says:

    @El Cid:

    Sir, I am in awe of your brilliance!

  58. 58
    r€nato says:

    @jvill:

    Checking the Commandments, killing innocents is against the 5th.

    Actually, the 5th Commandment for Catholics and Lutherans is, “Do not kill.” For the rest of the Christians and for Jews, it’s the 6th Commandment and it is generally rendered in English as, “Do not murder.”

    I guess I’ll grant them that killing an innocent is equivalent to murder; however the Catholic version is surely less clear-cut.

  59. 59
    Rob says:

    Come on, we already have proof Jesus would torture and it would be all fun and stuff:

  60. 60

    Ot but the next five mins are the most electrifying moment in sports. The start of the Indy 500. Even from 1800 miles away it scares the shit out of me.

  61. 61
    LD50 says:

    @r€nato:

    What about languages that lack this particular English semantic distinction?

  62. 62
    Ash says:

    I’m with everyone else wanting to see what the fuck kinda weapon could ever take down god?

  63. 63
    Joshua Norton says:

    Because pro-aborts don’t know for sure life does not exist at conception,

    Except there’s not one word in the bible about it. Not. One. Word.

    And if they really believed all their own revisionist clap doodle, how come they call themselves “born again” and not “conceived again”?

    Assholes.

  64. 64
    HyperIon says:

    @SrirachaHotSauce:

    the most electrifying moment in sports

    gotta call bullshit here.
    only in the auto obsessed USA would driving around souped up cars be classed as sport. competition? yes. sport? no.

    it IS probably the loudest moment in competition, i’ll give you that.

  65. 65
    LD50 says:

    I’m with everyone else wanting to see what the fuck kinda weapon could ever take down god?

    Could God microwave a burrito so hot that even He could not eat it?

  66. 66
    omen says:

    @mclaren:

    THIS is Jesus. The guy on the right.
    He’s wearing a bandolier of M16 clips too,

    he’s going to be mistaken for al qaeda.

  67. 67
    Ash says:

    Also on a semi-related note, Jesus Camp is on A&E right now, and this is some of the creepiest stuff I’ve ever seen.

    And I see geg has already commented on that.

  68. 68

    @HyperIon:

    What an idiot. So you don’t like car racing. Fine. But the start of this race, due to the track configuration and the way they line up the field, is the most dangerous moment in a dangerous sport. Nothing else even comes close.

    If you like car racing, and I do, it’s a moment to hold onto the arms on your chair.

  69. 69
    omen says:

    why are my comments getting swallowed? i’m not even getting a “in moderation” message.

  70. 70
    omen says:

    wanting to see what the fuck kinda weapon could ever take down god?

    is indifference a weapon?

  71. 71

    I hate these people.

  72. 72
    W. Kiernan says:

    One thing has always puzzled me about this “WWJD” business; I mean, in the sense of you or me being advised to do the same thing “JWD”. In a fix – let’s say He had to feed a hungry crowd, or travel across a body of water – He would perform a miracle. I can’t do that. You can’t do that. What kind of crappy advice is that? It’s kind of akin to saying “Let them eat cake.”

  73. 73
    Hank Essay says:

    Old Testy: Jesus died for your sins

    New Testy:Jesus died for your waterboard!

  74. 74
    ron says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim:

    well, god did send himself to earth to sacrifice himself to appease himself, and then rose from the dead to go be with himself in heaven.

  75. 75
    mattH says:

    Maybe I am late to this party, but Colin Powell is kicking ass and taking names today on Face the Nation.
    I sure would like to have this guy in the D party.

    The Democratic party is not the Catholic Church. He has to find absolution elsewhere.

  76. 76
    TR says:

    Woody Allen was right. If Jesus came back today and saw what was going on in His name, He’d never stop throwing up.

  77. 77
    Comrade Darkness says:

    @kay, you sound like me. Except for the part where I asked the nuns how was it if cain and abel were the third and fourth humans ever, could cain worry who might kill him when he goes wandering. Oh and where did he get a wife to have a huge family with and found a village now that, having killed abel, there are a grand total of 3 people on the planet?

    I learned an important lesson that day grade-school nuns no likey questions.

  78. 78
    Martian Buddy says:

    Perhaps it’s time to start updating parables so that wingnuts get the point:

    Jesus answered, “A certain man was going down from Central Park to Soho, and he fell among bankers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain pastor was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side, because man is saved by grace and not by works. In the same way a Randian also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side, sneering “that’s what you get for relying on statist police protection.” But a certain atheist, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and administered first aid. He called emergency services from his cell phone and waited by his side until the ambulance arrived. Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the bankers?” He said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

    /quick n’ dirty

  79. 79
    Ken says:

    smiley @ #15. Thanks for the link; good god, he looks Scandanavian, almost Aryan..

  80. 80
    Comrade Kevin says:

    @HyperIon:

    Only in the auto obsessed USA would driving around souped up cars be classed as sport. competition? yes. sport? no.

    Ever heard of Le Mans? It’s in pinko France. What do you think they call it there? Let’s see. Oh yeah, it’s SPORT.

  81. 81
    Jess says:

    If Christ was all knowing he would not have needed to waterboard to get the answer!

  82. 82
    LD50 says:

    If Christ was all knowing he would not have needed to waterboard to get the answer!

    Perhaps it would really be a kind of tough-love baptism.

  83. 83
    noncarborundum says:

    @Comrade Darkness:

    Oh and where did he get a wife to have a huge family with and found a village now that, having killed abel, there are a grand total of 3 people on the planet?

    Tom Weller came up with the perfect answer to this in Science Made Stupid.

    ETA: the italics mask the presence of a link (at least in my browser), so here it is again: Link.

  84. 84
    Comrade Darkness says:

    @Comrade Kevin, I too always think sport==athletic competition. If motor racing is a sport than so is video game playing, RC racing, and dog showing. I’ll just remember from now on to use the more specific “athletics” instead. “Sport” is meaninglessly broad, apparently, equivalating to “anything you can bet money on.”

  85. 85
    Ed Drone says:

    Old New Testy: Jesus died for your sins

    Newer New Testy:Jesus died for your waterboard!

    You’re going to get your testies in a tangle before long, sport!

    Ed

  86. 86
    Brachiator says:

    It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom. He would’ve done the same to save his Dad, or any one of His disciples.

    They must have based this on the part of the New Testament in which Jesus turns to the thief on the cross and tells him, “Man up, punk! You should be admiring the Romans for their enhanced interrogation techniques instead of moaning and whining.”

    Rambo Jesus. Even tougher than his previous incarnation as Supply Side Jesus.

  87. 87

    […] and thine words shall be true henceforth Posted on May 24, 2009 by torteya Apparently, this moron has not either: a) Read the Bible b) Mastered the dark arts of reading above 1st level […]

  88. 88
    Jon H says:

    In the Red State Bible, at the Last Supper, Jesus said, “one of you bitches will betray me!”, then swept all the crap off the table, and started waterboarding the disciples one by one… with water turned to WINE.

    Jesus 2: Die Harder

  89. 89
    Calouste says:

    The fact that people can write stuff like that crap on RedState and not be smitten down by lightning bolts is prove God doesn’t exist.

  90. 90
    Jon H says:

    ” Checking the Commandments, killing innocents is against the 5th. Because pro-aborts don’t know for sure life does not exist at conception, they are still willing to risk that it’s not killing.”

    Is it really killing when the fetus has neither a heart to stop beating nor even a brain to become brain-dead?

  91. 91
    asiangrrlMN says:

    Oh, good grief. You guys are the best. I don’t think I can top any of you. Thanks for the laughs.

    EKIM, I LOVED that video! Hilarious.

  92. 92
    Common Sense says:

    @HyperIon:

    only in the auto obsessed USA would driving around souped up cars be classed as sport. competition? yes. sport? no.

    Never heard of Formula 1 Racing? Forbes ranked Kimi Raikkonen the fourth highest paid athlete on earth after Ferrari gave the Finnish driver the largest deal in motor sports history. Michael Shumacher isn’t poor either, coming in at 5th. Both beat out any American driver (or any other non-Americans in any sport for that matter, including soccer).

  93. 93
    M. Bouffant says:

    Do not forget that Colin Powell would not have been before us on telebision today, as the former Chair of the JCS & SecState, had he not been in charge of the My Lai cover-up.

    Maybe he can apologize for that sometime when he’s not too busy.

  94. 94
    Common Sense says:

    My biggest qualifier for what should be considered a sport is whether there is a vote to determine the winner. When the champion is determined by how pretty you looked while doing it, it is not a sport. I don’t consider gymnastics or diving a sport (or college football for that matter) any more than I consider the Miss USA pageant one. They are all beauty pageants — American Idol contests. Establish your parameters and let the contestants play. It’s not about who looked the best, it’s about who wins.

  95. 95
    Ash says:

    @Common Sense: Oh dear, you actually think gymnastics is about how pretty someone looked?

  96. 96
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Ash: Yeah, I’m with you. I might agree that the judging systems in each sport is suspect, but I would also argue that it takes a hell of a lot of training to be a gymnast or a diver–more so than to drive a car around a track.

    Who gives a fuck what is or isn’t a sport? Sheesh.

  97. 97

    […] Why, torture, of course! […]

  98. 98
    Buckeye Hamburger says:

    Although I’m an atheist, I believe in Jesus of Nazareth, by which I mean that I believe that the man historically existed. There are a variety of reasons for that, one of which is that crucifixion was a typically Roman method of execution, typically used against dissident leaders in occupied lands.

    More accurately, it was a method of torture and execution. Certainly according to the story that the Christians believe, the founder of their religion was tortured to death, an event so central to their faith that an ancient instrument of torture is now the symbol of their religion.

    The idea that modern Christians support torture, and that they are now even saying that their tortured prophet would approve of more torture, is among the most astonishing, mind-bendingly hypocritical things I’ve ever heard.

  99. 99
    microtherion says:

    Why would Jesus need waterboarding equipment? Couldn’t he merely choke enemy combatants using the Force, saying “I find your lack of faith disturbing” ?

  100. 100
    Sarcastro says:

    only in the auto obsessed USA would driving around souped up cars be classed as sport.

    Uh, yea… anyways, anyone know who won the Grand Prix of Monaco today?

  101. 101
    Common Sense says:

    @Ash:

    I think if someone came out and did their gymnastics routine to, say Superfly or Paul Oakenfeld, they would lose. It doesn’t matter whether they are able to do a more complicated routine, but whether they aesthetically appeal to the judges. Screw judges.

  102. 102
    Common Sense says:

    @asiangrrlMN:
    It takes training to win a dog show or spelling bee. Training does not equate to a sport. Sport is about competition. I detest competition that is boiled down to a vote. It removes what should be an objective decision and makes it subjective.

  103. 103
    Steve S. says:

    “‘Put your sword back in its place,’ Jesus said to him, ‘for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?'”

    Authorize waterboarding to save His mom? Why in the world would he waste valuable time on torture when He’s got twelve legions of angels on call? Hell, God Himself commands the entire Heavenly friggin’ Host, and He couldn’t be bothered. And what about Mary and the Apostles? You’d think they would each have a battalion or two at their disposal. And speaking of the angels, are there no Jack Bauers among them?

    Finally, which is more asinine; an ancient religion about magical god-men, or contemporary humans who justify their criminality with it? Maybe Jack Bauer can get us an answer to that one.

  104. 104

    @Buckeye Hamburger:

    Just because someone said a man named Jesus was treated to the same tortured death that Roman’s used on actual living humans who could be proven to have lived, you think that qualifies Jesus to have been a real live human being?

    Okay, question for you: Jesus was said to be born of a virgin, what if you found out that there were other similar gods who were also born of virgins, that some of them had 12 disciples, that some of them were born on December 25th, or in Bethlehem, would you still believe Jesus HAD to be real?

  105. 105
    Buckeye Hamburger says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    You evidently have a severe reading comprehension problem.

  106. 106
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “Okay, question for you: Jesus was said to be born of a virgin, what if you found out that there were other similar gods who were also born of virgins, that some of them had 12 disciples, that some of them were born on December 25th, or in Bethlehem, would you still believe Jesus HAD to be real?”

    You’re conflating a guy and the stories told about him.

    Maybe Jesus was just a plain old Jewish apocalypticist who was executed, and a bunch of (inconsistent, sometimes contrary) stories were told about him after the fact.

  107. 107

    @Buckeye Hamburger:

    Please cite my severe reading comprehension problem.

    You stated:

    Although I’m an atheist, I believe in Jesus of Nazareth, by which I mean that I believe that the man historically existed. There are a variety of reasons for that, one of which is that crucifixion was a typically Roman method of execution, typically used against dissident leaders in occupied lands.

    What exactly could I have not comprehended? That you are an atheist and don’t believe in virgin births? But you believe Jesus existed… why, simply because he was said to have been crucified and that was a common form of punishment at the time? Are you really thinking that merits a reason for the man having to exist?

    I am trying to show you that many things that were said regarding Jesus were copied from previous religious gods. Are you going to go out on a limb and state that while you don’t believe in a religious god, you believe a man named Jesus lived because he was said to have been crucified? That’s pretty idiotic, especially in light of the fact that so much of the myth surrounding the character was copied from previous religions.

  108. 108

    @Jon H:

    Dionysius was said to have had 12 disciples too. Are you stating Jesus didn’t have disciples?

    What was there about Jesus that was unique besides him having been crucified?

    Other gods were supposedly born about the same time (December 25th) and also some were said to have been raised from the dead. I don’t think I’m conflating, I’m reciting the story the Roman Catholic church swears is truth. If anything, you are minimizing the story to only being 1. a man named Jesus, 2. a crucifixion.

    I would surmise that since the letter J didn’t exist back then, he was not named Jesus, so what other characteristics would make him Jesus besides the fact that he was crucified? I’m sure there were a lot of males under 50 who were crucified in what is now Israel back in the first century.

  109. 109
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “What was there about Jesus that was unique besides him having been crucified?”

    Constantine converted, and that pretty much did in the competing religions in the region. That’s what’s unique.

    ” I don’t think I’m conflating, I’m reciting the story the Roman Catholic church swears is truth.”

    Er, so? They also canonize dead people because they perform “posthumous miracles”. Even if the “miracles” are bogus, the saints – especially more recent ones – are known to have existed.

    Some people repeat the myth that Darwin converted on his deathbed. That falsehood doesn’t mean that Darwin never existed.

  110. 110
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “Dionysius was said to have had 12 disciples too. Are you stating Jesus didn’t have disciples?”

    Who knows? If he was a religious teacher, disciples tend to accumulate like dust bunnies under a bed. Just look at the followings today’s religious frauds manage to acquire.

    Perhaps the *number* of disciples was massaged in the concoction and retelling of the stories and myths about the actual man, either influenced by other religions, or in an attempt to coopt the other believers, or due to shared numerological beliefs.

    (Also, the gospels themselves don’t agree on the number of disciples. Some say 13, some 12.)

  111. 111

    Some people repeat the myth that Darwin converted on his deathbed. That falsehood doesn’t mean that Darwin never existed.

    Darwin didn’t live 2,000 years ago. His existence is not in dispute.

    Your argument is idiotic.

  112. 112

    @Jon H:

    You are not telling me what specifically made a man not named Jesus (because of the absence of the letter J) Jesus, the man-god of New Testament scripture.

    You offer nothing but that because he was crucified, the argument put forth by Buckeye Hamburger sounds reasonable – I’ll grant you that there were men in Palestine/Israel who were crucified, so therefore, without a name (no letter J) it is possible someone who was crucified existed.

    Without going into further detail about who this character was, what he did, what made him unique, the entire argument falls apart. Some men were crucified, that doesn’t make them Jesus of the New Testament.

  113. 113

    @Jon H:

    Bullshit regarding the 13th apostle, the 13th apostle is Paul, who was a self appointed apostle and was never chosen by the Jerusalem Council, or Jesus when he was alive, or by God in any scripture that God states was approved.

    Jesus chose 12 disciples, and kept 12 disciples throughout his supposed ministry. Judas committed suicide just before Jesus’ supposed crucifixion, and the remaining council (the 11 disciples who remained after Jesus’ death) cast lots to replace Judas with Matthias.

  114. 114
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “You are not telling me what specifically man a man not named Jesus (because of the absence of the letter J) Jesus, the man-god of New Testament scripture.”

    What an asinine argument.

    Presumably, there being a lack of the letter ‘J’ back then, Jericho, Jerusalem and Jordan must not exist either? Were they creations of the Roman Catholic Church? Let’s play a game: how many place-names in the eastern Mediterranean can we find with names starting in ‘J’?

    Transliteration – look it up and stop embarrassing yourself.

  115. 115
    Buckeye Hamburger says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    You yourself just cited the text that evidently do not understand. I’m not going to teach you how to read for free; if you want to hire me as a tutor, we can negotiate an hourly rate.

  116. 116
    John says:

    Poland wasn’t pagan, ya know, and neither were Germans.

    It is pretty deeply unfair to blame the Poles for the Holocaust. Yeah, they didn’t do much to help their Jewish neighbors, but they weren’t enthusiastic accomplices like the Latvians or Romanians.

    And they had their own problems – about as many Polish Christian civilians as Polish Jewish civilians died during the German occupation, which was incredibly harsh.

    That being said, with the likely exception of a small number of Jewish volunteers, nobody in World War II was fighting to save Jews from the Holocaust (which most people weren’t aware of until after the war was over, anyway)

  117. 117

    Let me make it simple for you:

    His name was not Jesus, if he existed, he was a man who was crucified, many men were crucified, what made him the Jesus of the Bible? What characteristic did he have that coincided with the Jesus of the Bible (not just any man, a miracle worker, the supposed divine son of God)?

    To say a man existed 2,000 years ago who was crucified and to equate that with Jesus is bunk, there were many crucifixions, as has already been attested, it was the method of execution. Buckeye Hamburger stated he believed Jesus lived because he was crucified, so what made him not just any man who was crucified?

    Burger: I believe when people read what we’ve written here, they will see you are avoiding the question.

  118. 118
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “Jesus chose 12 disciples, and kept 12 disciples throughout his supposed ministry. Judas committed suicide”

    Oh did he? Matthew says he committed suicide. Acts more or less says he fell down and exploded.

    ” just before Jesus’ supposed crucifixion, and the remaining council (the 11 disciples who remained after Jesus’ death) cast lots to replace Judas with Matthias.”

    http://www.philosophyforum.net.....ciples.htm

    Even granting the 12 apostles, the reason that number was chosen is probably because it matches up with the 12 tribes of Israel. That’d be useful to add to the mythology if you’re trying to attract Jewish converts.

  119. 119
    Jrod says:

    Little Dreamer’s argument is that the Jesus of the bible couldn’t possibly have been loosely based on a real person with the supernatural stories tacked on after he died, because…. uh….

    Actually, you didn’t make that argument. You’re arguing that there wasn’t actually a guy born from a virgin who did magic tricks, but nobody here is saying otherwise.

    You fail. Also, who gives a shit if there was a real dude named Jesus? So really, this whole argument is fail.

    Your little “No J, therefore I win” argument is also stupid. The name was Yeshua, which translates to English as either Joshua or Jesus. What, we can’t talk about ancient people unless we use their obsolete language?

  120. 120

    @Jon H:

    It also matches up with the 12 seats at the judgment of Israel. There is no 13th seat for a 13th apostle to sit in.

    Whether Judas died of self-combustion or committed suicide does not matter, it is reported that he committed suicide, and after what he had just done, it is more likely that was his demise than “exploding’ as you call it.

  121. 121
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “What characteristic did he have that coincided with the Jesus of the Bible (not just any man, a miracle worker, the supposed divine son of God)?”

    What characteristic did he have that coincided? The followers who went on to inflate the myth about the dead rabbi. Duh.

  122. 122

    Jrod, I am asking what specifically this man did to make him Jesus of the Bible besides get crucified. Lots of men got crucified, how does that equate to “Jesus lived”?

  123. 123

    @Jon H:

    So did the myth of Dionysius, that doesn’t make a god-man real.

  124. 124
    omen says:

    reminds me of when slavery used to be justified because it was in the bible.

    oh, i get it now. it isn’t waterboarding, it’s a baptism. we are saving terrorists’ souls, in the name of jesus.

    oops, Ld50 beat me to it.

  125. 125

    @Jon H:

    prove those men existed. ;)

    You can’t.

  126. 126
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “Whether Judas died of self-combustion or committed suicide does not matter, it is reported that he committed suicide, and after what he had just done, it is more likely that was his demise than “exploding’ as you call it.”

    It is reported in the Bible that he hung himself. It is also reported in the Bible that he fell and blew up.

    Acts 1:18:

    With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

  127. 127

    @Jrod:

    So that means you are going to go on record stating that you also believe Jesus existed simply because the Bible states he was crucified and that was the common procedure of execution at the time too?

    Hahahaha! Are you serious?

  128. 128
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “So that means you are going to go on record stating that you also believe Jesus existed simply because the Bible states he was crucified and that was the common procedure of execution at the time too?”

    Apparently you think it’s an outrageous claim to think a human lived in the Jerusalem area at the time?

  129. 129

    @Jon H:

    That’s not exploding, that’s injuring oneself in a fall, but I”m not disputing that, the fact is it is written in one place that he hung himself, that is suicide. I don’t know why you are making a big deal out of this. There are many areas of the Bible that write the same story to have happened in different ways that quite often couldn’t have all taken place at the same time. The book if full of stories that are often written down to contradict one another, yet, it’s the “inspired word of God” I hear. If God wrote that, then he’s needs to learn how to tell a convincing story.

  130. 130

    @Jon H:

    Apparently you think it’s an outrageous claim to think a human lived in the Jerusalem area at the time?

    Not at all, but what made him a god-man?

  131. 131

    If we are all stating that a man named Yeshua got crucified, I’m sure there were probably several Yeshua’s who got crucified – what does that have to do with the man that the Bible speaks of? The one who performed miracles, the one who was supposed to be born of a virgin… the notion that simply because Yeshua was crucified means he existed, that’s an idiotic argument.

  132. 132
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “Not at all, but what made him a god-man?”

    It’s called creative writing. Fan Fiction.

  133. 133
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “the notion that simply because Yeshua was crucified means he existed, that’s an idiotic argument.”

    Nobody’s making the argument that a miracle-working god-man existed.

  134. 134

    @Jon H:

    Nobody’s making the argument that a miracle-working god-man existed.

    Oh REALLY?

    @What about HERE?:

    Although I’m an atheist, I believe in Jesus of Nazareth, by which I mean that I believe that the man historically existed.

  135. 135
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “@What about HERE?:”

    You have a really hard time with the concept of a historical regular guy whose story was embellished and mythologized after his death, don’t you?

  136. 136
    LD50 says:

    That’s not exploding, that’s injuring oneself in a fall,

    Nah, we’re talking Biblical times. People used to blow up all the time back in those days.

  137. 137
    PGE says:

    @Little Dreamer:
    Man, I hate it when a thread gets hijacked by someone who won’t let go. I’m an atheist, myself, but I find the proposition that some Jewish preacher named Jesus existed a lot more believable than the notion that he was made up from whole cloth.

  138. 138
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “@What about HERE?:”

    I dunno about you, but when a self-proclaimed atheist talks about a historical Jesus of Nazareth, I pretty much assume that, being an atheist, the person isn’t talking about a miracle-working god-man, but rather a regular preacher guy.

  139. 139
    PGE says:

    @Little Dreamer: Take your meds.

  140. 140

    I find the proposition that some Jewish preacher named Jesus existed a lot more believable than the notion that he was made up from whole cloth.

    Why?

    And even if there were “some Jewish preacher named Jesus” why would he necessarily have anything to do with the mythical version, and why would the myths have any more validity?

  141. 141

    @Jon H:

    Well then what was so special about him that he had an entire book written about him and attached to the Jewish scriptures?

    I believe there were men named Yeshua who were crucified, but that doesn’t mean that Jesus of Nazareth existed. What is it that makes this man Jesus of Nazareth special? Apparently nothing attributed to him in the Bible, so then why embellish on him?

    The embellishments came from pagan history, which I linked to above, what was unique about this man? Why does everyone here arguing against me believe he had to exist? What did he do? Who was he?

  142. 142

    @PGE:

    PGE, before I take meds how about you go back and read my original link to the pagan myths, Jesus’ story was not made up out of whole cloth, it was carried down through the ages from other gods who were also said to have been born of virgins, had 12 disciples, were raised from the dead…

  143. 143
    LD50 says:

    PGE, before I take meds how about you go back and read my original link to the pagan myths, Jesus’ story was not made up out of whole cloth, it was carried down through the ages from other gods who were also said to have been born of virgins, had 12 disciples, were raised from the dead…

    …and, finally, exploded.

  144. 144
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “The embellishments came from pagan history, which I linked to above, what was unique about this man”

    He was Jewish?

  145. 145

    So no one can tell me why Jesus of Nazareth must have existed simply because he was crucified and that was the common method of executions during that time.

    Guess you all have nothing. Thought not.

  146. 146

    @Jon H:

    What if he never existed and the Roman Catholic church made him up out of pagan myths? The Roman Catholic church sits in the middle of what was a rich pagan community back in the early first century.

  147. 147
    Jon H says:

    @SrirachaHotSauce: “and why would the myths have any more validity?”

    Who said the myths are more valid if they were based on a historical person?

  148. 148

    I’m going to offer a link for you all to peruse and consider.

  149. 149

    @Jon H:

    Uh, that was the point of my question.

    If that little blurb went over your head …..

    Meh. Never mind. Not worth the time.

    As they say, Jesus H. Christ.

    (Hey, it’s a figure of speech).

  150. 150
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “What if he never existed and the Roman Catholic church made him up out of pagan myths? The Roman Catholic church sits in the middle of what was a rich pagan community back in the early first century.”

    The problem with that is that the Roman Catholic Church didn’t have primacy for hundreds of years. There were parallel, equal authorities in Alexandria, etc. I believe the earliest sources we have predate the dominance of Rome.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the basic story of a Jewish preacher were dressed up with bits drawn from neighboring religions, either to help attract converts from those religions, or because converts added their prior beliefs into the story.

  151. 151
    Jon H says:

    @SrirachaHotSauce: “Uh, that was the point of my question.”

    Your question implied that people here *are* saying that the miracles, etc, described in the Bible would be more credible if there were a historical Jesus. But nobody here is arguing that.

  152. 152
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    Spare us the atheist’s version of a Jack Chick pamphlet.

  153. 153

    @Jon H:

    My question implied the opposite. In other words, what difference would it make to the supposed validity of the myths whether there was a Jesus, such as my yardman, or not, not my yardman? None.

    The myths are bullshit whether there was real Jesus or not, as near as I can tell. I have only the word of a few OCD persons who are intent on making me believe them on the basis of proof by assertion. No sale, to me.

    “Word of God.” Yeah, right. I had a drunken boss who packed a gun who was more believable than that shit. Mainly because he had a gun, and it seemed in one’s best interests to agree with him.

  154. 154
    Jon H says:

    @SrirachaHotSauce: ” I have only the word of a few OCD persons who are intent on making me believe them on the basis of proof by assertion.”

    Anyone here on this comment thread?

  155. 155

    @Jon H:

    Beats me. I was just asking questions. If a shoe fits out there, please wear it and its twin, and pay the cashier on your way out. If not, please pull around back for your free car wash.

  156. 156
    Jon H says:

    @SrirachaHotSauce: “Beats me. I was just asking questions.”

    Ah, okay then. How ’bout them Red Sox?

  157. 157

    @Jon H:

    As long as they are beating the Yankees, I love ’em.

  158. 158

    The problem with that is that the Roman Catholic Church didn’t have primacy for hundreds of years. There were parallel, equal authorities in Alexandria, etc. I believe the earliest sources we have predate the dominance of Rome.

    I can’t tell you how a bunch of people all got Jesus happy in the first century, but there seems to be reason to believe that Rome became the major Bishopric when they instituted the scripture regarding Peter (keep in mind, the church had many scribes and writers creating documents – in fact, if you think about it, the church wrote all of it, if you consider that the church was always the church, no matter how small it was at any time).

    This is the same church that went through and decided which books to use (some of these choices have mystified people), which to toss (although some of those books hold very valuable information) and some have been found to have been tampered with.

    I’m sure you are aware that the names of the apostles that were said to have written the gospels and epistles (with the exception of Paul and perhaps John) probably did no such thing? Most of those books were written after said apostles lives should likely have been over.

    Just because Rome didn’t have primacy doesn’t mean they weren’t working actively toward it. Moreover, there were followers in Alexandria and in other places who were instituting their own rules as well. The entire religion was made up out of previously used ideas, put together in such a way that it made an impact and later they figured it could create both power and a money making enterprise.

  159. 159

    @Jon H:

    Jon, where do you get the idea that pagans only existed in Rome?

  160. 160

    @Jon H:

    Proof by assertion? I dunno, you tell me, but “I believe Jesus of Nazareth lived because he was crucified” sure seems like proof by assertion to me.

  161. 161
    PGE says:

    @SrirachaHotSauce: I said I’m an atheist. I didn’t say the myths had any validity. Learn to read.

  162. 162

    @PGE:

    I didn’t say you did. I just asked some questions. YOU learn to read. Or, have somebody read to you.

    Probably the latter will work better for you.

    Have a nice Go Fuck Yourself Day!

  163. 163

    @PGE:

    But you are saying that the man who the myths are based around existed, so while perhaps you aren’t claiming a virgin birth for him, or stating he’s the son of God, you are in fact trying to validate the Bible without evidence.

    You could have said “I would like to think Jesus could have existed” I would have let that go, but just because someone is said to have been crucified in the Bible does not lead one to believe he actually lived when that person is a character in a book over 2,000 years old with no secondary sourcing or substantiated proof (and before you go using Josephus for second sourcing, do a search on why you shouldn’t).

  164. 164
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “Jon, where do you get the idea that pagans only existed in Rome?”

    WTF? Where did I say that? You’re the one who implied a “Roman Catholic Church” that made up the stories wholesale.

    You need to take your meds, and I don’t particularly feel like arguing with someone just copying a website they found. You should really get a better education about the matter than that.

  165. 165
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “you are in fact trying to validate the Bible without evidence.”

    No more so than noting that Jerusalem existed at the time.

  166. 166

    You should really get a better education about the matter than that.

    Heh. Talk about a mismatch. LD knows more about this subject than you do, I assure you.

  167. 167

    @Jon H:

    The stories were put together over time, the earliest parts of it had to do with a man who was performing miracles. The story become more incredible over time. The church officials of the other sees were also creating their own additions to the story. Many of the men involved in the faith were writers. Rome just happened to embellish quite a bit more than most after it got a hold of the power. Do a search on Eusebius, you’ll see that he created a lot of the church history, and he was stated to have said that for those who need the treatment to receive the faith it was proper to use fiction – some people have interpreted this as him saying that lying is okay if it helps the church. There have been others over time who have also said lying is okay if it is in the best interests of the church, and the church eventually went to far as to have a doctor of the church write out the levels of lying and which ones were acceptable.

    When I stated the Church of Rome, I wasn’t very clear, the church is the Church of Rome now, so I equate it as such from the inception, but I also realize that not all that was written was written in Rome. Rome has embellished quite a lot over the last 2,000 years though.

    Pagan myths existed everywhere, some of these beliefs were added to help the gentry of Rome accept the new faith (and thus pay money to the church). Rome was not the only see to include paganism in the myths though. It’s a very complex story about how over time a book regarding a religion came together, when certain tenets of paganism were introduced (much of it at different times) – the one thing that is clear is that much of the practices and beliefs of the Christian religion are based on paganism, and on myths that existed long before Christianity came into existence.

  168. 168

    You need to take your meds, and I don’t particularly feel like arguing with someone just copying a website they found. You should really get a better education about the matter than that.

    A website I just found? I have been studying this stuff for years. I spend hours studying it. I want to know the truth, I don’t accept the pack of lies (they don’t make sense, the Bible is NOT a document that holds together without contradiction) and there are a LOT of things that I have learned over that period of time. I’m not just giving you some website I just found. I am trying to help people who make idiotic statements like “I believe Jesus lived because he was crucified” understand how the wool has been pulled over our eyes all along.

    Unfortunately, when it comes to religion, many people don’t want the truth (not that I have all of it, I’m on a journey, but I’ve been on this journey for a long time and I want truth, not lies).

    That being said, I’m sure everyone here is aware that I challenge religious statements, I’ve been doing so for the five years I’ve been on this site (I did it quite a lot several years ago) and I have done so in other places as well. If you don’t like it, don’t read it and don’t respond to it, but I have just as much right to put out my opinions and things I’ve learned out there and I will not be shut up. So ignore me or engage me, but don’t expect me to go away unless John says I have to.

  169. 169

    @Jon H:

    Jon, I don’t believe you were the one making the claim, but if you were fine – stating Jerusalem exists is one thing, we have proof it does, we have texts from the Jews Old Testament to back up that they were there over a thousand years before Christ supposedly arrived. That is not the same thing as stating “Jesus lived because he was crucified” and you know it.

    Just because a book states a man existed who we have no proof existed and that book says he was crucified means nothing without proof.

  170. 170
    Jon H says:

    @Little Dreamer: “they don’t make sense, the Bible is NOT a document that holds together without contradiction”

    Duh, no kidding.

    What, you think you’re the only person who knows this stuff? You’re a zealot, but you’re not privvy to any special secrets.

  171. 171
    Jon H says:

    @SrirachaHotSauce: “Heh. Talk about a mismatch. LD knows more about this subject than you do, I assure you.”

    What are you, a sock puppet?

  172. 172

    What, you think you’re the only person who knows this stuff? You’re a zealot, but you’re not privvy to any special secrets.

    I’m not saying I’m privvy to special secrets, but I’ve studied and I’ve studied things that a lot of people have no clue about. Why? Because many other people don’t study. They don’t ask non-conventional questions and they don’t want to try to piece it all together. I’m not saying I’m the only one who has done this, but I am in a very small minority.

  173. 173

    No Jon, he’s a friend, and he knows that I’ve studied because I’ve had many discussions with him about it. He doesn’t study it, he doesn’t have the fortitude to do so (and that’s okay), but he is well aware that I have studied a lot.

    I’m a zealot? Well, considering I’m not religious, I guess you could say if I’m a zealot, it’s zealous for truth, because religion has created a lot of problems in this world and people are fighting for and over things that much of the time they don’t even have a clue about. Usually the wage of not agreeing to religious questions is death. You want to know why much of the muslim world wouldn’t accept the Jewish homeland? Because they don’t believe their version of the Old Testament. You want to know why right wingers hate Muslims? Because they don’t accept Jesus.

    If people knew the truth, we might all be able to get along (not that I’m expecting to see that happen, but, opening up minds one at a time might help towards that endeavor). What I am doing (exposing truth) is part of our fight for democracy – giving power back to the people instead of an institution that tells them to give their money to keep the lies coming and go to church and listen to men who often don’t talk about truth but lies they came up with amongst themselves (look up Prosperity Theology) and threaten their followers that if they don’t live up to standards and believe, they are going to suffer and burn in Hell for eternity. It’s WRONG!

  174. 174

    @Jon H:

    Just making an observation. I’d quit while I’m ahead, if I were you. You are in way over your head here.

  175. 175

    Actually, Jon, if you want to prove me stupid, perhaps you’d like to try an exercise? I’ll await your answer. ;)

  176. 176

    Well, since you seem to be done, I’m going to go play a game with TZ.

    If you ever want to try the exercise, just ask, I’ll be happy to oblige you. I mean, since I’m not privvy to any special secrets (perhaps I am to a few, not many, just a few).

  177. 177
    Doubtless Thomas says:

    I can’t speak for what Jesus would do, but based on his statement, “Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour”, I’m pretty sure Dick Cheney would waterboard him based on the ticking time-bomb principle.

  178. 178
    Josh says:

    I’m with you guys on the “no evidence of a historical figure whom we could meaningfully call Jesus of Nazareth”; but a creation of the Roman Church? I’d argue that the “Christ” whom the Christians at the end of the first century worshipped has enough in common with the Jesus myth as we read it today that we can certainly give Paul and the gospel authors credit for inventing “Jesus” (Yehoshua, if you don’t like modern Romanizations).

  179. 179

    Since Jesus’s dad is, God the Father (of Jesus you know), Jehovah, the alpha and the omega and is, uhm y’know, immortal, I don’t see how He would need to use a waterboard to prevent some terrorist from killing Him.

    Now come the end of days when God asks Jesus to judge all mortals living and dead, I betcha Jesus will say “sure Dad, but don’t You think that judging redstate bloggers is below My pay grade ?”

  180. 180

    Josh, that’s not what I said, the myth for Jesus has been around since long before Christianity, there were many god-men types who fit the same profile. They were from pagan religions mostly (at least one Buddhist and I think one of the other eastern religions). The prototypes were added in from the pagan religions later, I think (and this is my own personal opinion) they started out with something unique to that character (walks on water and turns water into wine perhaps?) and then gave him the virgin birth and the magi visitation and such later with stories to make it fit the same type of god-man (many of the pagan god-men had magi visit them, were resurrected after death, born of virgins, etc). Jesus was not a complete invention of the Roman Catholic church, but the stories that he has in common with the others were added and embellished into the Bible over time after the initial Jesus idea.

  181. 181
    omen says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    isn’t this statement more inclusive than exclusive?

  182. 182
    Jrod says:

    I had to go to work, so I guess I missed all the fun. In any case, here’s why I’m inclined to believe that the biblical Jesus was based on a real person. (LD, I realize that you’ll read that as “I believe every word of the HOLY BIBLE is the infallible word of G-D,” but that’s because you’re a strawman loving asshole. I’m an atheist, and I pretty much hate the Catholic Church. Not that that should have any bearing on this discussion, but there you go.)

    It’s known that at the time Jesus supposedly lived, in Judea, apocalyptic preaching was all the rage. A fad, even. The real Jesus, assuming there was one, would have been just one of many street preachers calling themselves the messiah and predicting that god would soon end the Roman occupation. Now, you keep asking, what made this guy so special? One thing would be that he preached a crowd-pleasing blend of eternal life plus punishment for those bad people. You know, Romans, that jerk down the road who you know stole one of your goats, that dirty harlot who charges an outrageous fee, whatever. This proved so popular that people still believe that shit today. The other thing would be a truly nutty fanatical set of followers who thought of the man’s death as just the beginning.

    Think about it, how much more effective would your preaching about a man who was executed but came back to life be if that man was someone who people may actually remember from the time he came through town and caused a ruckus?

    Once Saul, oops, sorry, Paul got his evil mitts on the church, and began to evangelize outside of Judea, this would become less important, and it’d become easier to embellish the story with a dead-raising here and feeding the multitudes there, but there’d be no reason to change the name by that point.

    In short, I don’t think that the very very early Jewish sect that became Christianity would have done nearly as well if the “messiah” wasn’t somebody the relatively small Jewish community actually remembered. Obviously, I can’t prove it. No contemporary records remain. All we can do is guess.

    That’s why you’re a fucking jerk, LD. Somebody makes a guess that is different from your guess, and make no mistake that we’re doing anything else, and you start dropping bombs. Like it’s impossible to guess that Christ was loosely based on a real guy without brown-nosing the Catholic church.

    Go back to your studying. Human interaction is not your strong suit.

  183. 183

    @omen:

    Well, if you were Mary and he stood inside and said “who is my mother?” while you and your family were outside waiting and needing to talk to him would you feel that was inclusive?

    Somehow I don’t think she felt that way.

    Seems rude to me, but, I’m not the only one who seems to think so. Google the scripture and “rude” and you’ll find quite a bit.

    ————–

    Okay Jon, I’m going to give you a gimme – you can do all the research you want, you can spend a week on trying to figure out the answer if you don’t know how to find it (I assure you Google will not be your friend on this one):

    Exercise: Name two books of the Old Testament that described aspects of the Christian religion at least four hundred years BEFORE it came into existence.

    Have fun! ;)

  184. 184
    omen says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    Somehow I don’t think she felt that way.

    we don’t know how she felt. i could easily argue a mother who knew her son and understood his expansive nature wouldn’t be insulted by it.

    are there other quotes where you find he insults his mother?

  185. 185
    omen says:

    no evidence of a historical figure whom we could meaningfully call Jesus of Nazareth

    there is the historian josephus.

  186. 186
    omen says:

    little dreamer @ 183

    Well, if you were Mary and he stood inside and said “who is my mother?” while you and your family were outside waiting and needing to talk to him would you feel that was inclusive?
    Somehow I don’t think she felt that way.

    but your whole premise is that jesus didn’t exist. so he couldn’t have made this statement. why are you quibbling over fiction? what’s the point of arguing jesus was rude if he didn’t exist to begin with?

  187. 187

    @omen:

    Josephus is not reliable for a source. Wiki it (Josephus_on_Jesus – there are two wikis)

    The only source Josephus used that might be considered possibly alluding to Jesus is to a Jesus the brother of James and in that same passage the name Jesus bar Damneus is given. Not conclusive proof that this is Jesus bar Joseph. If Josephus was talking about Jesus Christ, would he be talking about James and making Jesus a side note?

    The other passage he wrote is not reliable at all.

    Another slight to Mary? Sure, coming right up: I hate linking to this, but it gets my point across. :(

    Moreover, Jesus stated that if you did not hate your mother and father and sisters and brothers, you could not be a follower of him.

  188. 188

    @omen:

    but your whole premise is that jesus didn’t exist. so he couldn’t have made this statement. why are you quibbling over fiction? what’s the point of arguing jesus was rude if he didn’t exist to begin with?

    Because people THINK he existed and so therefore, I’m stuck with that reality. People take the things he said at face value, even if they were just words that came from a scribe’s pen, and some of those words are damaging and create havoc on the world. Just because he may not have been a historical person doesn’t him the words attributed him don’t carry influence.

  189. 189

    WMD’s didn’t exist, should we just forget the BushCo said they did?

  190. 190
    omen says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    here are some other historic sources:

    However, there are at least half a dozen non-Christian (that is to say Roman or Jewish) sources that refer to Christian origins. These are sufficient to provide some confirmation of the historical picture that is painted by the Bible. Some of the most important of these sources are: Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, The Babylonian Talmud, Josephus, and the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion.

  191. 191
    omen says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    now you’re being silly.

  192. 192
    omen says:

    @Little Dreamer:

    the jesus/james mention is not the only thing from josephus which has scholarly consensus.

  193. 193
    omen says:

    @Little Dreamer:
    Because people THINK he existed and so therefore, I’m stuck with that reality. People take the things he said at face value, even if they were just words that came from a scribe’s pen, and some of those words are damaging and create havoc on the world. Just because he may not have been a historical person doesn’t him the words attributed him don’t carry influence.

    so you are arguing jesus is evil? isn’t it the old testament that contains more destructive passages?

  194. 194
    Jrod says:

    Those Beatitudes were some evil shit, lemme tell ya.

  195. 195

    @omen:

    Hmmm, I can’t give that info away yet, sorry. It’s subject to a current exercise I’ve written for Jon above.

    For those that you mentioned, which of those were his peers? Alive and either witnessing or getting direct second hand sourcing of the death and resurrection at the time it occurred?

    There is no scholarly consensus that Jesus lived. You are being disingenuous. If those sources were considered consensus, why is it nobody ever states that Jesus is historically known to have lived? No one does. There are only little tidbits that don’t come right out and say “Jesus the rabbi” or “Jesus bar Joseph” or “Jesus the healer” or anything along those lines. There is something wrong with every single source with the exception of to the one alluding to Jesus bar Damneus (who doesn’t sound like Jesus bar Joseph at all).

    On the other hand, there are many records from people who existed in his time and before. Marcus Antonius, Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Alexander the Great, Philip of Macedonia, Guatama Buddha (while dates are inconclusive, few would state he never existed), a whole host of Ancient Greek Philosophers.

    A man at the turn of the meridian supposedly dies and comes back to life and nobody has any actual historic evidence for this, just religious propaganda with no known dates. You’d think somebody of some import would have recorded a full report that wasn’t written by a follower, wouldn’t you?

  196. 196

    @Jrod:

    If that was all he was supposed to have said, there would be no complaint from me. I think the Beatitudes are a great message and should be followed.

    Do you know why we have a problem with right wing evangelicals who want to see people tortured, languish and die? Because Jesus also is quoted as saying he didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword, that people should hate their families, that he was going to judge and throw a lot of people into Hell, etc…

    The fact is, there is less evidence that this person actually existed because so many people kept putting different messages into his mouth.

    His messages are not consistent.

  197. 197
    Jrod says:

    A man at the turn of the meridian supposedly dies and comes back to life and nobody has any actual historic evidence for this, just religious propaganda with no known dates.

    That’s hardly surprising, considering that nobody actually came back to life, and the only people who believed that he did were an obscure cult full of lunatics. Also, by the time that cult became big enough for anyone to really care about, the dude was long dead. Assuming, of course, that he was real, which is, as you say, questionable.

    Edited to reflect that LD responded to me, so I removed an insult saying that he didn’t. Like Jesus, my messages are inconsistent, though I’m fairly sure I’m real.

  198. 198

    I”m not ignoring you. I answered your question.

    Edited to reflect that Jrod edited above and I am quite sure you are real, just impatient. ;)

  199. 199
    Jrod says:

    His messages are not consistent.

    His life story isn’t consistent either. The debate over whether the bible’s Jesus was loosely based on a real guy is pretty inconsequential, since the bible’s Jesus is basically fictional. It does get to one interesting aspect of early Christianity, which is that they were a crazy cult that was taken over by savvy, power-hungry charlatans.

    I guess I’m a bit attached to the idea that the “real” Jesus was also a charlatan, just trying to get ahead on the backs of a few gullible fools, who accidentally created this monstrous entity that’s survived for 2000 years. Also, he’s a black guy, just to mess with the Christianists. I can indulge this silly idea, because, hell, who knows?

  200. 200

    @Jrod:

    That’s hardly surprising, considering that nobody actually came back to life, and the only people who believed that he did were an obscure cult full of lunatics. Also, by the time that cult became big enough for anyone to really care about, the dude was long dead. Assuming, of course, that he was real, which is, as you say, questionable.

    Funny thing, the Sanhedrin recorded that a religious band including a man named Jesus (or Yeshua, states Jesus but we all know there was no letter J and the name has been updated for common usage) were disbanded. They also state Jesus was hanged, and that all the disciples were given trials and received death sentences afterwards. So if Jesus did live and die, he wasn’t crucified. This source is not considered reliable either (see Historicity of Jesus link above).

    No matter how you look at it, there is no historicity for this individual that supposedly was born the son of God, taught a new religious viewpoint, angered his fellow Jews and took away the sins of the world.

    Moreover, if you studied the sacrifice rituals of the Jews (which Jesus’ crucifixion was supposed to mimic – he is supposed to be the unblemished lamb), this offering cannot take away sins, the lamb is not a sin offering and never was.

  201. 201

    Also, he’s a black guy, just to mess with the Christianists. I can indulge this silly idea, because, hell, who knows?

    If he lived, I would have no problem with his race (Judas was said to possibly be black as well), but the white evangelicals might.

    One of the people whose groundbreaking (yes i know that’s hard to believe, trust me) research I study states he thinks the Messiah WOULD be black too.

    If I were one to believe in a Messiah (I haven’t any opinion one way or another) I would think that’s not only acceptable, but appropriate after the treatment the black race has received in this world.

  202. 202

    and I want to bump this just once (I never bump things, so apologies if this is a problem) but I offered Jon H a chance to show me I am not privvy to any special secrets)… I want to make sure he sees this if he’s interested in trying:

    Okay Jon, I’m going to give you a gimme – you can do all the research you want, you can spend a week on trying to figure out the answer if you don’t know how to find it (I assure you Google will not be your friend on this one):

    Exercise: Name two books of the Old Testament that described aspects of the Christian religion (adding to clarify: not the savior, the religion; and these are very specific aspects) at least four hundred years BEFORE it came into existence.

    Have fun! ;)
    (I will return to this thread next Sunday with the answer, if you figure it out, please place the answer on this thread).

  203. 203
    wayne says:

    This stupid story inspired my latest comic strip:
    http://bit.ly/AItlU

  204. 204
    Cerberus says:

    Little Dreamer please indulge yourself to look up the term, “Convenient foil”.

    Dead crazy preachers often form cults. Cults back then and even now (see Rapturists) can sprawl and get control and especially back then, religions would modify and morph depending on the introduction or primacy of various cults. The early Catholic Church and other early religionists when compiling the first Bible from the writings on this cult modified them for easier use against Pagan religions.

    This is true even if Yeshua bin Yosef was a crazy preacher, a crazy preacher named Merry Peckinwood, non-existent, or the literal son of God, blah de blah.

    My question is why it seems unlikely there was a crazy pastor at the beginning to form the basis of the cult, considering this has occurred in every religion, including in modern times (scientology, mormonism, Heaven’s Gate, Rapture Ready). Some guy says some shit, some followers get fanatic, it slowly gains acceptance, adoption, etc… and morphs with time (mormons on blacks and indians, again, Rapturists).

    Why is it so painful personally for you to admit the possibility that someone with one of the most common names in Israel would be a human preacher guy whose story was embellished by his followers and others.

  205. 205
    Cerberus says:

    Little Dreamer please indulge yourself to look up the term, “Convenient foil”.

    Dead crazy preachers often form cults. Cults back then and even now (see Rapturists) can sprawl and get control and especially back then, religions would modify and morph depending on the introduction or primacy of various cults. The early Catholic Church and other early religionists when compiling the first Bible from the writings on this cult modified them for easier use against Pagan religions.

    This is true even if Yeshua bin Yosef was a crazy preacher, a crazy preacher named Merry Peckinwood, non-existent, or the literal son of God, blah de blah.

    My question is why it seems unlikely there was a crazy pastor at the beginning to form the basis of the cult, considering this has occurred in every religion, including in modern times (scientology, mormonism, Heaven’s Gate, Rapture Ready). Some guy says some shit, some followers get fanatic, it slowly gains acceptance, adoption, etc… and morphs with time (mormons on blacks and indians, again, Rapturists).

    Why is it so painful personally for you to admit the possibility that someone with one of the most common names in Israel would be a human preacher guy whose story was embellished by his followers and others.

  206. 206

    @Cerberus:

    1. Why does the statement: “I believe Jesus lived because he was crucified” merit proof that he lived? Where is the historicity for this and why is it no sources conclusively say he did live? Why should I accept that? (come on people, I know you are all much more intelligent than this)

    2. Why is it that my non-traditional religious viewpoints are shot down whenever possible when I have info that I can almost guarantee you that you are completely unaware of?

    3 Why is it that knowledge is such a bad thing (even for liberals) when it comes to religion? I’m beginning to think we have a whole lot of automaton religious type people here who think I might actually threaten their belief if I have the opportunity to share my viewpoint (why would I threaten someone’s faith, is it not strong enough already?)

    Why are you all so damned scared?

    Oh yeah, if you don’t like what I have to say, you can always ignore it.

  207. 207

    @Cerberus:

    scientology, mormonism, Heaven’s Gate, Rapture Ready

    And how many of the deities of those religions have been born of virgins; were resurrected; had three maji visit them bringing gold, frankincense and myrhh; and started a paganistic religion that is practiced by a large percentage of adherents?

    Answer: Ummm, I can’t say for sure, but I’m thinking NONE. Mormon’s might get a special recognition for drawing a bunch of followers, what else?

  208. 208

    If I’m in moderation and I am double posting, apologies. I don’t see my post:

    @Cerberus:

    scientology, mormonism, Heaven’s Gate, Rapture Ready

    And how many of the deities of those religions have been born of virgins; were resurrected; had three maji visit them bringing gold, frankincense and myrhh; and started a paganistic religion that is practiced by a large percentage of adherents?

    Answer: Ummm, I can’t say for sure, but I’m thinking NONE. Mormon’s might get a special recognition for drawing a bunch of followers, what else?

    By the way, speaking of vigin births, perhaps you would like to tell me who Isaiah was fortelling the birth of when he stated:

    Isaiah 7:14
    Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    If you said Jesus you would be wrong (but, this is fairly common knowledge – unfortunately the churches say this forcasts the birth of Jesus).

  209. 209

    The historicity of Christ is in fact a question of merit despite what the Christian apologists would have us believe. I’m in the camp that there’s not any good evidence that he did exist (as a man, I’m even more skeptical about him being a deity). And there’s some pretty good evidence that his ‘life’ was retrofitted to a growing mythology around a new* midrashic Messianic/God-Man figure, in the AD100 timeframe.

    My question is why it seems unlikely there was a crazy pastor at the beginning to form the basis of the cult, considering this has occurred in every religion, including in modern times …

    Cerberus’ reasoning seems to me to get it backwards. Likely or unlikely, there is just a lot of good, scholarly work that shows that a) Paul, the earliest known Christian evangelist, likely didn’t regard his Christ as an earthly figure, b) Other Man-God cults that were prominent at the time didn’t refer to living, historical figures, c) the Gospel and other Biblical ‘accounts’ of Jesus’ life are deeply contradictory and tailored to fit preceding Hebrew prophesy, e.g. Isaiah, and d) the study of ‘Q’ offers an explanation for how much of the non-Dionysian, pro-Zealot stuff gets into the mouth of the Jesus of the New Testament.

    Against that, there is just no credible historical evidence of a guy called Jesus from Nazareth existing at all.

    So we’re left with a basic problem of weighing the probability of whether the guy was a real guy or not. Obviously we can’t know for sure. IMHO, the probability is that he didn’t.

    *Others of this type were common in the Near East in this time period, as Little Dreamer points out

  210. 210

    BTW – didn’t mean to call anyone here a ‘Christian apologist’ … that was a reference to real Christian apologists who argue for Jesus’ divinity and generally shout down anyone who casts doubt on Jesus’ historicity.

    Also, none of this has to do with the commonly understood message of Jesus, whether he existed or not, that the Red State imbecile so moronically mangles.

  211. 211

    […] And reading the transcript really doesn’t give you the whole effect, because you have to hear the caustic sneers and the other tonal shifts to completely get the feel for the crazy. After listening to the entire dizzing opening monologue, I realized why some of these nutters in the birther wing of the current right feel comfortable putting up billboards asking “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” without stopping to realize most people aren’t going to have any clue what they are talking about. Or writing diaries trying to explain that Jesus would waterboard. […]

  212. 212

    […]  Really.  It has come to that in America. It’s gotten so bad that some of the far rightwingnutters, via Balloon Juice this time, say that Jesus would have waterboarded because, you know, he died for […]

  213. 213
  214. 214
    Jrod says:

    I don’t really care whether Jesus was based on a real person or not. LD just insisted on being such an asshole about it, as well as assuming that anyone who thinks, sure, there was probably a real guy at some point, are simply terrified Christians who want to burn the heretic.

    Seriously, just about everyone you’ve argued with so far has either professed atheism or not said either way. You need to calm the fuck down. If you’d just laid out the facts that make you believe there was no real guy named Jesus, nobody would have a problem with you.

    As for your points above:

    1. Nobody here has claimed that, if there was a real person who was embellished into the bible’s Jesus, he was born from a virgin and rose from the dead. Yet, you still keep trotting out that idea. Try arguing against arguments that are actually made, rather than what you imagine were made.

    2. Because you’re a dick.

    3. Why do you think anyone’s faith is threatened here? You’re on a forum full of atheists and agnostics but the way you’ve been responding you’d think this was the Vatican’s official website. People would respond better to your information if you didn’t insist on being as rude and condescending as possible, while grappling with strawmen.

    (I realize I have no right to complain about someone else being condescending and rude, but I at least save it for people who actually, you know, don’t largely agree with me. I don’t assume that someone who disagrees with me on a minor, inconsequential point, is actually an agent of the Lizard-people sent to destroy me.)

    Seriously, calm down already.

  215. 215
  216. 216
    Lesley says:

    I think this red stater flunked bible school or at least all the chapters on Jesus.

  217. 217
    Jack Parsons says:

    I can hardly wait for auto-erotic waterboarding to take the place of auto-erotic asphyxiation as the leading cause of death for sad, lonely wankers.

  218. 218
  219. 219

    Nobody here has claimed that Jesus must have lived because he was crucified? You obviously haven’t read the thread. Go back and read it, when you get to Buckeye Hamburger at 98 stating:

    Although I’m an atheist, I believe in Jesus of Nazareth, by which I mean that I believe that the man historically existed. There are a variety of reasons for that, one of which is that crucifixion was a typically Roman method of execution, typically used against dissident leaders in occupied lands.

    Let me know.

    I can’t be a dick, I can be a bitch, I’m female. I don’t think I’ve been a bitch, I’ve been asking for proof as to why this Jesus figure must have existed, as D. Aristophanes has pointed out, there are good reasons to believe he never did live.

    No one’s faith is threatened? Apparently I’m not allowed to state what I believe on this thread, so I think we can name at least one. I get shut down, because my ideas and beliefs don’t conform with the Jolly Rancher Candy God.

  220. 220
    Gus says:

    This is one of the best comment threads ever. I’m dyin’ here.

  221. 221
    Jrod says:

    Females can be dicks. I think Jay-Z wrote a song about it.

    But you’re right. One person said that early in the thread, therefore, I must agree with that. Your logic is impeccable.

    Just consider this: when you tell me, as in, me personally, that I’m wrong because of something another person said, I take that as an insult. Your first responses to me completely ignored what I actually said, and you called me an idiot for coming to my conclusions based on reasons which I plainly stated were not, in fact, my reasons.

    Feel free to hit Ctrl-F, search Jrod, and try to find the post where I talk about Jesus’s crucifixion. Then count the number of posts where you call me a moron for believing that Jesus was totally real, and by extension, the true Son of God, because of the crucifixion. Then, just maybe, you might figure out why you pissed me off.

    You insult me, I insult back. That’s how we roll at BJ.

  222. 222
    DanSmoot'sGhost says:

    @Jrod:

    It’s your crucifixion that we are studying now, compadre.

    Heh.

  223. 223

    Jrod, it has nothing to do with your talking about Jesus’ crucifixion, it has to do with your 182 admitting you thought Jesus was based on a real man, which was the claim the Hamburger was making (although HE claimed it was due to the crucifixion).

    Perhaps you should read what’s being written and claimed before you go off on tangents that don’t exist.

    By the way, I considered you a minor opponent in this argument, the Hamburger’s claim is what started this whole thing, you were just a side argument.

  224. 224

    By the way, you call ME a “dick” and then have the nerve to tell me my social skills are lacking? That’s some screwy logic there. I never called you a name, I kept my focus on the argument, and still am. I have not lashed out at you at all. If you see me making ad hominem attacks against you, it is only in your own projection.

  225. 225

    […] anyone claim that supporting torture and Christianity are compatible – or that Jesus would support waterboarding. According to Christian doctrine, Jesus’ suffering redeemed him and the world – but […]

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] anyone claim that supporting torture and Christianity are compatible – or that Jesus would support waterboarding. According to Christian doctrine, Jesus’ suffering redeemed him and the world – but […]

  2. […]  Really.  It has come to that in America. It’s gotten so bad that some of the far rightwingnutters, via Balloon Juice this time, say that Jesus would have waterboarded because, you know, he died for […]

  3. […] And reading the transcript really doesn’t give you the whole effect, because you have to hear the caustic sneers and the other tonal shifts to completely get the feel for the crazy. After listening to the entire dizzing opening monologue, I realized why some of these nutters in the birther wing of the current right feel comfortable putting up billboards asking “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” without stopping to realize most people aren’t going to have any clue what they are talking about. Or writing diaries trying to explain that Jesus would waterboard. […]

  4. […] Why, torture, of course! […]

  5. […] and thine words shall be true henceforth Posted on May 24, 2009 by torteya Apparently, this moron has not either: a) Read the Bible b) Mastered the dark arts of reading above 1st level […]

  6. […] pearls of wisdom from that bastion of politicized Christianist exceptionalism (h/t John Cole): It’s likely even Jesus would have OK’d water boarding if it would have saved his Mom. He […]

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