NFL Draft Open Thread

I’m already exhausted. I’ve cleaned, worked out, then walked a couple miles, then went and played with homeless animals for a couple hours. I think a nap is in order, and then it is time to find out who will help the Steelers win their seventh Super Bowl.

Also, Pens and Flyers tonight, and around here, the local animal shelter is having their annual fund-raising dinner (tickets are only 25 bucks, so I am off to that). I’ll probably post something later on tonight. Think I might go catch Earth, or if not, I’ll rent the Wrestler.






84 replies
  1. 1
    Michael D. says:

    the local animal shelter is having their annual fund-raising dinner (tickets are only 25 bucks, so I am off to that).

    I like you. Just went to PetCo and volunteered for 4 hours of adoption stuff. I do Atlanta Humane Society. Awesome.

    ….and that Ann Coulter ad at the top of the page has GOT to go – if you can do it.

  2. 2
    Tymannosourus Rex says:

    Hey thanks, Mr. Cole. I now feel like my Internet voice is being heard (see previous post’s thread).

    Anyhows, I’m kind of torn on this percy harvin kid. Word on the street is that my Vikes will go after him if he is at 22… but if you are too stupid to lay off weed for the most important 2 weeks of your life, what are the odds that you will figure out the west coast offense?

  3. 3

    Um, pens/flyers is on right now, not tonight.

  4. 4
    kid bitzer says:

    “played with homeless animals for a couple hours”

    seriously? like, you went to a shelter, and spent a couple hours just playing with the animals, because it’s good for them?

    john, i said it the other week, and i’ll say it again: you are a mensch.

  5. 5
    geg6 says:

    Um, John? Pens and Flyers are playing right this minute.

  6. 6
    Incertus says:

    @Tymannosourus Rex: I don’t think the two are related–one has to do with judgment and the other with football ability. Now judgment matters, and that might be reason enough to stay away from him in the first round, but it doesn’t affect his ability to pick up an offense.

  7. 7
    J. says:

    Wow. You must be exhausted to not even post cute pet pix — or Tunch’s latest action shot. (And speaking of cat action shots, check out Catzilla, 15.5 pounds of furry feline fury.)

    P.S. I don’t think the Steelers need much (or any) help. Gloater.

  8. 8

    First quarter didn’t turn out good for the Pens.

  9. 9
    Tymannosourus Rex says:

    @Incertus:

    I guess I’m lumping them all together into the amorphus “character” of the player.

    But still, I think intelligence has something to do with realizing the NFL will probably do a drug test at the combine, and I think that that intelligence will be slightly necessary for memorizing the Vikes’ huge, huge playbook.

  10. 10
    Andy K says:

    If the Pack can’t get BJ Raji, I think they’ll trade down.

    BTW, why even mention the Pens/Flyers? Red Wings are on the way to the repeat.

  11. 11
    Incertus says:

    @Tymannosourus Rex: I think Ricky Williams is a great example of the disconnect. He never had a problem picking up the playbook anywhere he played, and he is by all accounts an intelligent person. But he couldn’t keep himself from picking up a doob.

    Now, I’d be the first to argue that testing positive for weed ought not matter to the NFL. It’s far from a performance-enhancing drug, and in some states, its use is not considered illegal. But that’s a matter for the NFL and the Players’ Union.

  12. 12
    asiangrrlMN says:

    @Tymannosourus Rex: Great. Just great. I have to suffer through another sub-par Viking season. Or, better yet, they will make the playoffs only to lose the first game. Wake me up when they win a championship!

    P.S. What the weed thing says to me is that the kid is addicted to it if he can’t abstain long enough for tryouts.

  13. 13
    Andy K says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    First quarter period didn’t turn out good for the Pens.

    Fixed

  14. 14
    pdf says:

    I saw The Wrestler yesterday. If you wanna trust a stranger’s opinion on the Internet (I know, right?), I wrote about it here.

  15. 15

    I wish I had the extra to give to the local pet shelter here in Jackson right now. Unfortunately, my personal economy is rather stifled right now, but your heart is definitely in the right place John.

    I’ll be moving to Europe soon and I’m just working (treading water really) enough to keep afloat until that eventuality. As a fact, I work at one of the most successful independent pizza places in Jackson Mississippi. I make it my business to ‘salvage’ any menu items which are mistakenly made or never picked up and paid for, but it’s not because I’m hungry. Things aren’t THAT bad…..yet. LOL.

    I bring scavenged food home from my minimum wage job and feed it to the many pit bull terriers staked out in the yard of my next-door neighbors. Their children seem well fed, but the pit bulls staked out in the backyard always hover near starvation. I’ve no problem in jumping the fence and both feeding and watering them. Of course I could make a case with the authorities, but that would likely lead to something akin to what happened with Clint at the conclusion of Gran Torino, although my neighbors are all Black, not Hmong.

    Instead of such hostility, I’m just seen as the crazy old ‘dog’ guy (I have four of my own) who ‘cares too much’. I get a great joy out of it, though I worry for the dogs when I relocate abroad, but for now, there are at least three vicious dogs who would be more than willing to kill for me and who literally love me to death.

    Last week my boss accidentally ordered four gallons of the wrong brand of Caesar Salad dressing. Rather than risk changing his award winning recipe, and apparanty unable to return same for credit, I was tasked with it’s removal (to the trash heap). My boss allowed me donate it to the local food bank instead of just throwing it away. Do what you can. There’s no justice. It’s just us.

    http://www.msarl.org/

    http://www.stewpot.org/

    Enjoy.

  16. 16
    Incertus says:

    This might be the most unusual thread possible to post this in, but what the hell–Bea Arthur died at age 86.

  17. 17

    @Andy K:

    Doh! and I knew that!

    Those two goals in 51 seconds were sick.

  18. 18
    Woody says:

    Detroit’s crazy if they don’t trade their #1 for a couple of good Offensive Linemen…

    The lions’ OL let in at LEAST 35 sacks last year. a billion-dollar QB is just more meat for the sackers w/o a decent line, no matter who he is…and stafford’s not a really mobile guy, either.

    so what are the chances the defenses knock him out in a couple of games?

    not that I give a crap about the Lions, really…I pick the Raiders to go all the way this year of their QB, Russell, stays healthy and that kid they got from Arkansas gets the touches…

  19. 19
    geg6 says:

    Ah, but the second period is looking up.

  20. 20
    John Cole says:

    The Flyers are such punks and thugs, and their degenerate fans are just as bad. I would love coming back against these goons and beating them on their own ice. Maybe after they lose because they had five power play goals scored against them because they can’t skate the length of the ice without tripping or cheapshotting someone, their loser fans can go outside and throw batteries at each other at close range.

  21. 21

    Just saw The Wrestler. Totally wicked awesome.

    We just got another kitty from our local shelter. Much like The Wrestler he is also totally wicked awesome.

  22. 22

    John, instead of the Wrestler (which is excellent, don’t get me wrong) I double-dog dare you to rent the French film Martyrs, which just came out on DVD.

    It’s rather, uhh, timely.

  23. 23
    John Cole says:

    @kid bitzer: That wasn’t the plan, but that is what happened. I was out checking for someone who might be the right fit for Tunch, and whenever I go to these places I bring a big bag of cat food and some dog treats. This was the first time I had been to the Animal Friends, and it is a no-kill site, so food is always good.

    At any rate, I got there, and couldn’t make up my mind. I still couldn’t decide whether dog or cat. The next thing I knew, it was three hours later.

    There was one cute white kitty who lost both ears to cancer and looked so funny, like a little otter, but he just would not have gotten along with Tunch. There was a brother and sister set of cats who looked about two years old, and they had the most amazing markings, but I just can’t leapfrog from one to three cats, especially when two of them are bonded- Tunch would be outnumbered. There was also this cute little chiuahaha (sp?) who was ten years old and had his canines removed so he looked like he was sneering the whole time.

    So hard to make a decision. I will know when it is the right one, though. It took about twenty trips to the pound before I found Tunch and I just knew he was the right one as soon as I saw him. They choose you.

  24. 24
    2th&nayle says:

    @Woody: That kid from Arkansas is Darren McFadden, and you’re right, he’s a difference maker if he can stay healthy.

  25. 25
    WereBear says:

    Wanted to say “Thanks!” to John for his support of the shelter animals.

    The local area is having a food drive for the shelter, and I’ve been picking up extra to put in the bins the grocery stores have out.

    But if you can spare it, anytime is a good time. When stuff’s on sale I just put it in the Food Shelter for people; they know how to get it where it’s needed.

  26. 26
    PeterD says:

    Whatever else is done today, the best draft is still gonna be the Beloved Bears. A franchise, pro-bowl QB with the 18th pick? For a team that would still screw up a first round pick if Walter Payton and Gale Sayers were the only players in the draft, that’s a pretty good tradeoff. Still time to screw up the 49th pick, however.

    Unfortunately, I think Stafford to the Lions was a good pick. If he lives through the first few years there (what’s the NFL record for getting sacked?) he’ll be a handful for the rest of the division. This isn’t any Joey Harrington.

  27. 27
    Thlayli says:

    @PeterD:

    what’s the NFL record for getting sacked?

    Single season: 76. David Carr, 2002. A #1 pick on an expansion team.

  28. 28
    Tymannosourus Rex says:

    @PeterD:

    You’re forgetting the fact that the Bears gave up next year’s #1 too along with a 3. So technically, they’re taking less than 1/2 of Jay Cutler this year.

  29. 29
    John Cole says:

    Stafford was another idiotic pick. They need a damned line, not another first round QB to be beaten to a bloody pulp and then spit out of Detroit.

    Those people never learn.

  30. 30
    Laura W says:

    @John Cole:

    They choose you.

    Most accurate thing I’ve seen you write in my near-year here.

  31. 31
    Tymannosourus Rex says:

    @John Cole:

    Agreed, considering the Lions will suck this year no matter what, and next year’s draft has at least 4 elite college QBs.

  32. 32
    Eric U. says:

    I couldn’t help feel sorry for anyone that goes to the Lions. It takes a special person to be put in that position. I don’t feel like thinking about it, but I don’t think the successful quarterbacks came out of situations like that. They have a limited period where they either make their name or become bench fodder, and it’s hard to come back from that.

  33. 33
    geg6 says:

    Well, John, you got your wish. In your face, Philly! Oh, and as long as the Stillers get some offensive line help, I don’t much care about the draft. If I lived anywhere else, however, I’m sure I’d be on pins and needles.

  34. 34
    kid bitzer says:

    “They choose you.”

    okay–i’ll keep that in mind the next time you’re telling us what a deranged, psychotic cat your tunch is.
    with all the trash-talking you do about that cat, i’m just going to say, “uhuh. and what does his choice tell us about *you*?”

  35. 35
    Ninerdave says:

    Pretty stoked with Crabtree. Can’t believe the Raiders passed him up.

    Oh and I’ll shamelessly pimp the shelter I volunteer at:

    Oakland Animal Shelter.

    Since it’s city run, we have to take any and all animals. That means we have to euthanize some. However, with the work of the staff and volunteers, I believe it was only three last year. Our adoption rate has been skyrocketing!

  36. 36
    Craigomc says:

    Five straight goals to put the Flyers back in their cages for another year. I like that.

    Nearly every draft had Alex Mack as a late first/early second round guy. The Browns took him at 21. This is why you suck, Cleveland.

  37. 37
    PeterD says:

    @Tymannosourus Rex: True, but given their history, I’d give up at least six #1 picks… Benson, Grossman, Haynes, McNown, Terrell, Enis,… Hell. let’s throw in Stan Thomas too!

  38. 38
    Laura W says:

    @Ninerdave:

    Since it’s city run, we have to take any and all animals. That means we have to euthanize some. However, with the work of the staff and volunteers, I believe it was only three last year. Our adoption rate has been skyrocketing!

    My jaw just dropped. THREE? In Oakland? California Oakland?
    That’s phenomenal.

    I’ll just bet you are very familiar with PAWS (Pets Are Wonderful Support). I learned about them way back in the very early 90s when I lived in Monterey, CA. I still think it is one of the best ideas out there. My closest friend in Monterey died of AIDS right after I moved out of state. He had been feeding two stray cats in his home and I know there was an attempt by other friends to catch them and relocate them but I also know how relieved he would’ve been to have a group like PAWS working with him to be sure the cats were placed before he died.

    When I think of dying, be it from illness or accident, I worry about my five animals. Fortunately, they now have a Godmother who would be sure they were all well cared for and provided for for the rest of their lives.
    (Oops. Am I supposed to be talking about football? Topic Fail.)

  39. 39
    Ninerdave says:

    So hard to make a decision. I will know when it is the right one, though. It took about twenty trips to the pound before I found Tunch and I just knew he was the right one as soon as I saw him. They choose you.

    Funny, Fu, our cat, reached out and batted me from her cage when I was looking at the SFSPCA. I knew at that moment she was the one.

    Our Vet at the time, said well, she’s a Tortie, and a polydactyl. Torties have attitude and poly’s are usually docile, you’ll get one or the other. Well, she’s both. hahahah. Sweetest kitty you’d ever want to meet, sleeps on my back when I’m prone on the floor, then the next minute she’s eating my head.

  40. 40
    Laura W says:

    Fuck it. Moderation Again.
    I surrender.

  41. 41
    Svensker says:

    Jets go with a first round qb pick!

    No idea how this will work out. Feel bad for our perennial backup kid, Kellen Clemmons, who is never going to get a chance now. But it will be interesting how we do — good offensive line, shiny new qb. Hmmmm.

    The Jets chat board is on fire — half the guys hate the new pick, the other half think it’s the greatest thing since, um, well since we hired Brett Favre…

    Speaking as a girl, I wanna see how the new kid looks in the huddle. Also, of course.

  42. 42
    apistat says:

    The raiders really helped us out by not grabbing Crabtree at 7. Yahoo Sports’ analysis of their pick was pretty amusing:

    Analysis: A major reach here as the Raiders take the fastest wideout in the draft. Heyward-Bey is an explosive vertical threat; however, he is very raw as a route-runner, lacks great hands and might end up being one of the worst values in the 2009 draft.

  43. 43
    Violet says:

    @Thlayli:

    Single season: 76. David Carr, 2002. A #1 pick on an expansion team.

    Don’t remind me. Dire followed by disastrous followed by how can it get any worse yet it is.

  44. 44
    Andy K says:

    @John Cole:

    Stafford was another idiotic pick. They need a damned line, not another first round QB to be beaten to a bloody pulp and then spit out of Detroit.

    Even worse: TE with the second pick in the first round!

    I live amongst the Lions fans- the few who are left- and I really feel for them. Of all the years to have the first pick of the draft, they got the one that didn’t feature anyone that other teams would trade up for.

    Very happy with the Packers’ picks. Raji was exactly who I wanted, and Clay Matthews, jr. is a hell of an upgrade over Brady Poppinga at ROLB. Matthews can share a hair stylist with AJ Hawk, but who’s going to babysit Raji? He likes the weed.

  45. 45
    Crusty Dem says:

    Single season: 76. David Carr, 2002. A #1 pick on an expansion team.

    I was in Houston for that, it was just brutal, they might as well have just shot him. The guy had a ton of talent and played with a lot of heart, but they put him in impossible situations again and again and again. I actually thought he might end up being great, but it turns out that getting hit ~15 times a game for 5 years isn’t very good for you body and mind. I still have hope, but I suspect he’s been too thoroughly beaten down. For every Aikman and Young (guys who survived being on horrible teams and getting hit all the time at the beginning of their careers), there are a pile of David Carr’s. Also note that Aikman and Young both ended up with serious concussion syndrome.

  46. 46
    Andy K says:

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    No worries. I’ve been following the NHL since the Darkness Under Harkness in Detroit, and I still drop “quarter” in every now and then.

  47. 47
    Andy K says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    Carr’s time in Houston ruined him. He’s too scared to hold on to the ball and wait for routes to come clear downfield. It’s a shame.

  48. 48
    Gator90 says:

    Tyrannosaurus – I am as biased as my name implies, but I think the Vikes will be very pleased with Harvin. He may not be the brightest light on the tree, but put a football in his hands and he’s Einstein. He was always a good citizen at UF, and he was the best athlete on the field every time out.

  49. 49
    Crusty Dem says:

    I live amongst the Lions fans- or the few who are left- and I really feel for them. Of all the years to have the first pick of the draft, they got the one that didn’t feature anyone that other teams would trade up for.

    Aside from ego/looking bad, I cannot fathom why the team w/#1 don’t just sit and wait and let 10-20 teams pick and throw their money at unproven talent. Additionally, the result would be a much faster draft (the year when Minnesota wasn’t ready to make a pick, the other teams moved quickly to “take advantage”). It’s win/win. Of course, if some team wants to give you additional players/picks to move down, that’s the best case scenario, but I’d much rather my team have the last pick in the first round than the first (and not just because that would mean they won the SB).

  50. 50

    We are the Jets, and we have a new quarterback. Fear us.

  51. 51
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    The guy had a ton of talent and played with a lot of heart

    No. No, no, no. This was a disastrous pick from the beginning and anyone who was there knew it. Carr came from a B- league to be the #1 pick of a major market NFL team? No thanks.
    Anyone who saw tape of him at Fresno St knew he couldn’t throw the touch pass, or the soft route past the LB’s but underneath the CB’s.
    Added to that, the dude was a mental basket case before he ever took a shot from anyone. He duct taped his wedding ring finger because he didn’t want to lose the ring during games. Whuh? Just take the damn thing off! But no, he was too mentally immature to do that. Add in his freakish dad to the mix, plus a horrendous coaching choice of Dom and his number was posted to the wall of People Who Will Never Get There.
    Listen, there have been plenty of high name recognition QB busts from all over the NCAA, but if you want someone who is battle tested at least go with SEC, Big 10 or Big 12. Not freakin Fresno St.
    Yeah, the poor bastard took his shots. But he was a whiny punk in the locker room or huddle and he did a lot of physical damage to himself by not flinging the damn thing outta bounds when he could.
    David Carr just sucked, pre sack record and post record.

  52. 52
    Corner Stone says:

    @Andy K: He can’t hit those routes. He has a strong arm but no touch.

  53. 53
    Crusty Dem says:

    Carr’s time in Houston ruined him. He’s too scared to hold on to the ball and wait for routes to come clear downfield. It’s a shame.

    I didn’t see the few throws he had last year with the Giants (or the year before w/Carolina), but I’d like to think he could make a comeback if he could get his head straight. His 2004 season was absolutely phenomenal, given his mediocre OL and only one adequate receiver (Andre Johnson, before he was the force he is today), he reminded me of Joe Montana with the Chiefs (hyperbole alert). I can only say that those who consider him a bust didn’t watch what he went through and appreciate his phenomenal effort…

  54. 54
    Crusty Dem says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I know all about his general weirdness, did you actually watch him play? Look at that 2004 team and tell me how a bust put up those numbers with that talent around him. I agree he should’ve thrown the ball away more, but if he threw the ball away every time he was going to get hit, his wouldn’t have completed 100 passes the whole year. No QB, ever, would’ve been great surrounded by that assemblage of “talent”.

  55. 55
    JC says:

    I know this is a football open thread, but seriously, has anyone been watching the Sox/Yanks game on Fox? I mean, there have been like 10 lead changes in this thing. It’s currently 16-11 Sox, in the 8th, and the game started at 4 pm. This feels like one of the classic rivalry games from 2004…

    Sigh… I know no one outside of the Boston/NY corridor cares..

  56. 56
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    I can only say that those who consider him a bust didn’t watch what he went through and appreciate his phenomenal effort

    I watched every snap. I don’t consider him a bust, just someone who never had it to begin with. Yeah, he kicked ass at the college level, and I give him props for that, but he was never NFL level talent. And anyone who thinks he was has never seen the slant route, the button hook, or the little pick all teams run at 8 to 12 yards.
    He was a basket case in the locker room and never a leader of that team. Aikman took his ass on a platter all the time but the team respected him for his leadership and skill. Not so for Mr. Carr.

  57. 57
    robertdsc says:

    Have I soured so much on the NCAA that I don’t know any of the first round picks aside from Sanchez? Lame.

    I see Cindy and his Penguin bitches won today. Feh.

  58. 58
    robertdsc says:

    double post.

  59. 59
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    I know all about his general weirdness, did you actually watch him play

    Yes.
    No one on the team respected him. He was a little bitch.
    They essentially went and got Schaub who is a less mobile, less armstrong QB but in a similar mold of Carr. What does that tell you?

  60. 60
    Andy K says:

    @Corner Stone:

    A lot of the things you’ve written about Carr’s abilities ring a bell with me- the Brett Favre Bell. No touch. Doesn’t throw it away when he should. He found his touch, thanks to Steve Mariucci. As for throwing it away…well, he’s the most intercepted QB in league history.

    No, #4 didn’t duct tape his wedding ring to his finger, but that’s only because he didn’t marry his long time s.o. until long after their oldest was born (nothing wrong with that in my book. But he did display his immaturity by slugging down cases of beers at a time, showing up at meetings in Atlanta either hung over or still drunk.

    But Favre was successful because he had an excellent coaching staff, and once he showed that he could make enough of the passes, they forgave the fact that he was still a heavy drinker. Success absolves the sin of immaturity in pro sports.

  61. 61
    Andy K says:

    @Corner Stone:

    What does that tell you?

    That the Texans O-line is good enough now that QBs aren’t afraid to play for them.

  62. 62
    Crusty Dem says:

    @Corner Stone:

    They essentially went and got Schaub who is a less mobile, less armstrong QB but in a similar mold of Carr. What does that tell you?

    umm, that Texans management are who we thought they are. And we let them off the hook!

    But seriously, I acknowledge his imperfections, of course I’ve yet to see the perfect QB, even Brady and Manning have limitations. I think your definition of Carr as a college QB because he lacked touch is completely ass-backwards. A college QB is one who has great touch but can’t throw a 10 yard out because it sits in the air for an extra half-second (see Wuerffel, Danny and many, many others). Touch can generally be taught, arm strength, not so much…

    My point is that surrounded by decent talent, Carr would’ve been a Pro Bowl QB, while surrounded by post-expansion Texans, he was widely considered a bust. The Lions are likely repeating the error (although at least the Lions have some WR talent, so even there Stafford is luckier than Carr).

  63. 63
    Corner Stone says:

    @Andy K: Dammit, I had a rebuttal but it got EATED. Basically I called you less than sane for trying to compare Carr to Favre.
    Favre had a better arm and a hell of a lot better leadership. No comparison and you Billy Madison it for trying.

  64. 64
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    umm, that Texans management are who we thought they are

    We can build on this! WE CAN BUILD ON THIS!

    My point is that surrounded by decent talent, Carr would’ve been a Pro Bowl QB

    Give me a 5.5 yard per rush RB and an O-line who gives me 4 seconds and I’ll kick the shit outta you.
    Well, not really as I’m old and fat but the point is the same. Woulda, coulda.
    Yes, he was failed by the team mgmt for not getting him something good around him. I’ll give him a little slack. But the main point remains. He just doesn’t have it, he never did, and he never will.
    I disagree with your definition of touch. I watch plenty of NCAA QB’s who float the ball on an out route but can actually make the underneath pass. Carr couldn’t, he can’t and he never will be able to. Has nothing to do with the O-line. He can’t make that pass.

  65. 65
    Crusty Dem says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Favre had a better arm and a hell of a lot better leadership. No comparison and you Billy Madison it for trying.

    Surround a guy with talent and he’s a character with leadership, surround him with crap and he’s a loon who didn’t get the respect of his teammates. It’s standard post hoc analysis. If the Texans had drafted Favre (somehow magically transported out of college in 1991 to Houston in 2002) and you’d be calling him an alcoholic loser.

  66. 66
    Violet says:

    The Texans have been a disaster their entire existence. I know, they’ve improved. Carr is gone. Finished even last season. Encouraging signs, etc. But I’ve got no confidence in them. They’ve made enough stupid decisions to convince me they’re just not that smart. Maybe they’ll surprise me and this season will be great. But I doubt it.

  67. 67
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem: I have no way to prove this to you but it’s still the truth – I knew Carr was a bust the moment they announced his name. I saw him play. I SAW HIM PLAY.
    I’m not double dipping back to an easy after action report. He never had a modicum of NFL talent – beyond a strong arm he had nothing. He played at Fresno St and put up good numbers. Bully for him. He didn’t ever have it.
    We can just disagree with each other on this because I feel the burden of proof is on you. You’re claiming he coulda, woulda, shoulda and I’m saying he never had it and never did it.

  68. 68
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    Surround a guy with talent and he’s a character with leadership,

    And I’ll just add in here – see Matt Leinart and the Cardinals.
    All things being equal…I think we see what happened.

  69. 69
    Crusty Dem says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Matt Leinart and the Cardinals

    My rebuttal would be Matt Leinart at USC. Quite frankly, Leinart is the rubber-armed college QB-type you should be saying would never make it in the NFL. When the cannon-armed QBs don’t get it done, it’s usually their head/coaching staff/teammates.

    We can just disagree with each other on this because I feel the burden of proof is on you. You’re claiming he coulda, woulda, shoulda and I’m saying he never had it and never did it.

    I’m not saying he woulda/shoulda, I’m saying he did (2004). By any sane measure, that was a great season. Unless you’re the QB of the 2005 Colts/2007 Pats, an 83.5 passer rating is quite good, on the 2004 Texans it’s fantastic. He just ended up beat down after ~600-1000 hits from NFL DL/LBs over 5 years.

  70. 70
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    Quite frankly, Leinart is the rubber-armed college QB-type you should be saying would never make it in the NFL

    Ummm, no. I’m not defending Matt or saying anything at all about him except to say – with the exact same team and talent he didn’t get it done and Kurt Warner did.
    Listen, if you really, really want to say Carr was a potential stud but just didn’t have the tools around him he needed to reach his full level of talent – well, I think you have no clue about football talent.
    In fact, Charlie Casserly – is that you?

  71. 71
    Andy K says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I SAW HIM PLAY.

    So.Did.I.

    There are these establishments known as sports bars, most of which own these things called satellite dishes which the former employ to show every single NFL game that’s going on.

    As much as I love my Packers, I’ll bop around the bar watching all of the games because most of them feature someone from my IDP fantasy team. I’ve had Carr on my roster. I’ve had Andre Johnson on my roster. I’ve had DLs, LBs and DBs on my roster who played against the Texans. And I’m telling you that, from what I saw, the Texans organization did the least they could to help Carr maximize his potential and, in fact, had a negative effect on him.

  72. 72
    Corner Stone says:

    @Andy K: No argument. But he sucked to begin with, and sucked harder after.
    Everyone – Carr just didn’t have it, ever. If you want to prove this wrong then bring in a stat sheet from an alternate universe where Carr played with Orlando Pace, Flozelle Adams, etc on his O-Line, Lawrence Taylor, Singletary, Ray Lewis, etc on D and Rice, Harrison and Gonzales on offense.
    Then you’ve got something to argue about. Otherwise, it’s pretty clear that Carr sucked as an NFL QB and there’s absolutely nothing to contra that.

  73. 73
    Corner Stone says:

    @Andy K:

    There are these establishments known as sports bars, most of which own these things called satellite dishes which the former employ to show every single NFL game that’s going on.

    Holy shit! You just rocked my world Andy!
    Any guidance where I can find one of these so called “sports bars” in the greater Houston area? Would they possibly have TV’s and/or alcoholic beverageses?

  74. 74
    Andy K says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Snark for snark…fair enough. :D

    My dad’s done some sports bars down there on Packers’ road-trips. I’ll let you know where they are if you tell me where the mechanical bulls are in west Michigan.

  75. 75
    Corner Stone says:

    @Andy K: Never had the pleasure of being in Pure Michigan. I hope one of my guaranteed 25,000 mornings I can wake up there.
    As for mech bulls – Gillies went out of biz before I could drink. Wait…before I could *legally* drink.

  76. 76
    CT says:

    As an Oregon Duck fan, I’m bummed that Kellen Clemens isn’t going to get a legit shot to claim the starting job (I guess he’ll likely start the season, but unless he rips it up, Sanchez will get in there sooner or later. I’m not at all sold on Sanchez at #4 in the draft-I watch a fair amount of Pac-10 football and he ‘s good, but he didn’t pop off the screen as high-first round material. Its always hard to tell with any college qbs, and doubly so for USC qb, because their surrounding cast is so much better than most of their opposition-he’s get hit more in his first game as a Jet than he did his whole career at U$C.

  77. 77
    Crusty Dem says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Everyone – Carr just didn’t have it, ever.

    Shockingly, as sports fans, we each have our own opinions and are not going to be swayed. I wasn’t a fan of him as a #1 pick, I didn’t think the Texans made the right move going with a QB from nowhere, but he did win me over with his effort. You’re focusing on intangibles that I think are ridiculous (wedding ring tape, locker room rep, etc) and abilities I think are overrated (touch passes), but we all have our preferences. I’m still baffled that you claim to have watched him in 2004 and still think that he sucked – maybe you were watching on a 9″ Sylvania – but the question is obviously moot.

  78. 78
    Corner Stone says:

    @Crusty Dem:

    You’re focusing on intangibles that I think are ridiculous (wedding ring tape, locker room rep, etc) and abilities I think are overrated (touch passes), but we all have our preferences.

    That’s what the game is about. You can take the fastest guy on the planet but if he can’t run a route for shit then what do you have? A straight line threat the other team can play over the top and contain. Intangibles are what take the Joe Montana’s of the world from a barely mobile, medium strength arm QB to a world class HoF’er.
    It’s dead fucking silly to sit here and say that intangibles like locker room leadership don’t make a decent QB into a winning QB.
    As for touch passes – that’s not intangible, that’s the NFL bread and butter. That little underneath route is the entire enchilada of success for a QB in the NFL. That’s why every tape breakdown done by the real pro’s at ESPN talk about a QB’s ability to make them.
    How’d you know I had a Sylvania?

  79. 79
    Common Sense says:

    I’m thrilled this turned into a Texans thread — by the way I have a really bad feeling about Cushing.

    Me on 6 years of watching ever play Carr made:

    One fairly good 2004 does not negate 7 years of suck.

    Whatever his effort may have been he couldn’t beat out a 90 year old last year in Carolina.

    It is no coincidence that when they ditched Carr and went with the “similar, but slower” Schaub they cut their sacks in half within a season. It is also no coincidence that Carolina allowed more sacks per pass with Carr as a starter than they did under anyone else, even rookies and Vinny T.

    David Carr takes a month to get the ball off. He focuses on one receiver and telegraphs his pass by refusing to even glance at other options. He was good in 2004 because Domanick Davis provided a rushing threat and Andre Johnson can catch a football even when the entire defense could tell from Zoolander’s eyes where he was throwing it.

    Anyone who thinks Carr has the makeup of an NFL QB should watch the 2006 season (the one where Carr would have lost his job had Rosenfels not broken his hand after wrenching the spot from Carr — and giving up half the sacks). By the end of the season Kubiak dumbed down the playbook to pre high school levels to prevent Carr handing teams the game. Since Carr only saw one receiver at a time, Kubes had him throw to that receiver almost instantly, preventing an opportunity for a defender to read the play.

    I cannot imagine what would happen if Manning goes down and Carr is subjected to NY’s fan base. Houston fans were far nicer than those in other towns — there is no way on earth NY or PHI fans would put up with 5 years of what Carr gave us. But for 5 years fans blamed it on the OL.

    It’s like Atlanta fans who kept thinking it was the WR’s fault they couldn’t produce. When Atlanta got an actual quarterback, it turned out they already had some pretty good WR’s.

  80. 80
    Common Sense says:

    Oh and one other thing:

    David Carr is the biggest bust in NFL history through sheer longevity. At least the Chargers knew when to cut bait with Leaf. Nice hair though.

  81. 81
    Common Sense says:

    Actually two things;

    If anyone has some time to kill on Sunday while waiting for their team’s pick, read through the old Panther threads circa 2007. When they signed Carr, they were ovverrun with Texans fans warning them just how bad DC was. The responses were a litany of “Hey it’s all your OL’s fault. That’s what ESPN told me.” Right around amonth into the season, after Delhomme got hurt and Carr came in, Panther fans saw the light. By the end there was a new blog — mistermittens — devoted to the gloved one’s sucktitude. There was a mass apology and an exodus of both Panther and Texans fans to Giant boards, alternating between friendly warnings and cheap shots.

  82. 82
    Common Sense says:

    @Woody:

    I pick the Raiders to go all the way this year of their QB, Russell, stays healthy and that kid they got from Arkansas gets the touches…

    Woody you are either high or confusing football with track. I sincerely hope you were joking. The Raiders are awful. Absolutely awful. They stand a good chance of being the worst team in the league.

    Seriously — Heyward-Bey and Mitchell? These two were each taken at least a round before they should have been, and in both cases they passed over guys that were clearly more NFL ready. I know one guy who still called himself a Raider fan after the last few years. And he gave up on his team after this draft. Al Davis is the most egomaniacal owner in the NFL — worse than Jerrah and worse than Snyder. He kills that team every single year.

    They need linemen. Huge, fat, 330 lb linemen. All over the place. At least 6 or 7 of them.

  83. 83
    Corner Stone says:

    @Common Sense:

    He was good in 2004 because Domanick Davis provided a rushing threat and Andre Johnson can catch a football even when the entire defense could tell from Zoolander’s eyes where he was throwing it.

    And you know, I was not even going to get into the multi-tude of suckiness that was David Carr w/ the Texans. But you bring up relevant points. If I never again see a 1 yard hot route dump off it will be too soon.
    But I wasn’t going to rip the whole thing down, just point out that he sucked, couldn’t make enough of the throws and was a whiny bitch in the huddle/locker.
    And honestly, 16 TD’s and 14 INT’s in 2004? Not exactly a good defense against suckiness.

  84. 84
    Common Sense says:

    I’m not shy about ripping down a guy who posted -27 yards passing in a game. That minus sign is not a typo.

    Carr was astonishingly bad. Mind numbingly awful. I don’t care if you drafted him as your backup fantasy QB and saw a few snaps during the Bud commercial for the Pack game — the guy is ungodly awful. He fumbled the first two snaps from center in the ’06 season and then proceeded to get sacked and throw an INT. He has an uncanny ability to take a team out of the game within one possession without any other offensive player touching the ball.

    God I’m glad we dumped David Carr.

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