Another Bush administration member takes to the WaPo to point out that by torturing, we are helping terrorists do their duty to Allah:
Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, “as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, ‘brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship.” In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can — and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know. This is because of their belief that “Islam will ultimately dominate the world and that this victory is inevitable.” The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.
It just never stops with these guys, does it?
Comrade Darkness
And these ego-freaks held our collective futures in their hands for eight bloody years.
Justin Cognito
Wait… then that means… OH MY GOD THEY’VE BEEN GIVING COMFORT TO THE TERRORISTS!
Frodo
And some of us couldnt even vote against them (not being USA citizens and all…)
Robertdsc-iphone
Grotesque beyond belief.
Laura W
Easy To Be Hard.
Cat Lady
Cheney is sending his orcs out.
We’re going to see a lot more of them. I actually think Cheney’s getting worried.
GregB Formerly GSD
A profound sickness has swept this nation. This is merely a symptom.
-G
Brachiator
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Or, “Who’s afraid of the American Inquisition?” Somehow, this little bit of history comes easily to mind (the only difference, of course, is that American “interrogators” did not kill those tortured). Courtesy of Wikipedia:
The phrase auto de fe refers to the ritual of public penance of condemned heretics and apostates that took place when the Spanish Inquisition or the Portuguese Inquisition had decided their punishment (that is, after the trial). Auto de fé in medieval Spanish (and in Portuguese) means “act of faith”. …
The auto de fé involved a Catholic Mass; prayer; a public procession of those found guilty; and a reading of their sentences. The ritual took place in public squares or esplanades and lasted several hours with ecclesiastical and civil authorities in attendance….
But, neither torture nor burning at the stake took place during an auto de fé, which was a religious ritual. Torture was not administered after a trial concluded. Executions were always held after and separately from the auto de fe.
MattF
Ah, true word from the famous Hoover Institute for Islamic Studies. It’s a relief to know that our experts are on the job.
schrodinger's cat
I often wonder whether the defenders of Bush administration really believe in the crap they spout on various news outlets or do they think that we are so stupid that we would still fall for whatever it is they are selling.
UnkyT
So after the breaking point was reached, and the beans spilled, we stopped the torture right?…..right?
Kirk Spencer
For the shoe on the other foot, here is section five of the US Soldier Code of Conduct:
“Evade to the utmost of my ability,” it says. So by the reasoning of these unnamed individuals, it’s only reasonable that OUR soldiers be subjected to ‘enhanced interrogation’ when captured.
Idiots.
Ugh
What the fuck? What the fucking fuck? Do people actually associate with this person? My fucking god.
And the WaPo printed this crap.
Dave S.
So we were taking pointers on torture from the people we were torturing? Did I understand that correctly? Unbelievable. Actually, given everything else, it’s all too believable.
Comrade Dread
So we’re taking advice from radical Muslims about how to interrogate radical Muslims?
And no one saw a problem with that?
No one at all ever thought, “Gee, I wonder if Al Qaeda would encourage us to torture because it gives them great PR with the locals about how evil Americans are?”
Or to put it more succinctly: “SINCE WHEN THE FUCK DO YOU TAKE ADVICE FROM AL QAEDA?”
zmulls
Didn’t John McCain eventually give up information when he reached his breaking point? He resisted to the best of his abilities, and showed remarkable heroism, and I don’t think anyone blames him for eventually giving in.
It’s what we expect from soldiers — to resist as much as possible. I don’t expect Al Queda expects anything less. Allah or no Allah.
And Jack Bauer is a fictional character. Really he is. I hate to keep reminding these people.
Punchy
So the job of a rapist is to make sure he safely helps the rapee do her duty to please a man and procreate, so then she’s able to enjoy the joy of motherhood.
Got it.
Alan
I thought Room 101 helped a person love Big Brother.
Shade Tail
Is this Thiessen jerkwad really serious? Even if we assume that he’s not lying about Zubaydah saying this (a dangerous assumption to make), believing Zubaydah when he said it just goes to show how big a dumbass Thiessen is.
Torture makes the victims say what they think their torturers want to hear. That’s not an opinion; it is a long established and easily verifiable fact. So if what Thiessen writes really happened, it probably happened like this:
Seriously, the more these dimwitted wingnuts talk about torture, the stupider and more uncivilized they sound.
Iowa Housewife
@Laura W: What’s with the hairdo on the guy seated way on the left? It reminds me of The Planet of the Apes for some reason.
Paul in KY
Can’t top any of the other comments above. Jesus Christ on a cracker, what kind of idiots did they employ back in the Cheneyian hegemony?!
Alan
When the pictures showing the treatment of POWs came out from Abu Ghraib the Right was appalled. They were against torture before they were for it. They believed our country was better than that before they decided it wasn’t.
omen
so when you torture a christian, you are helping him to feel closer to christ?
Tsulagi
Okay, I may be a bad person, that blockquoted paragraph made me laugh out loud.
Interrogator following compassionate conservative directives from the brilliant mind of Cheney to KSM: “We’re gonna waterboard your ass 183 times. The first 182 times will be just for shits and giggles to help you get right with Allah so you can honorably tell us what we want to know on the 183rd time. You can thank us later.”
Yeah, as the linked puff piece mentioned, I can bet these techniques generated 6,000 intelligence reports. Any word yet in any of them on when the Muslim Death Star will be completed?
Bootlegger
@Paul in KY: Hey Paul, what part of the Bluegrass do you call home? I’m central, edge of the Apps.
To the point at hand, I heard several of these idiots whine that by revealing our torture techniques the enemy could train for it. This assumes, of course, that if we revealed nothing, left ’em guessing, they wouldn’t train to resist interrogation. By this logic, the obvious strategy is to deny torture, punish people who do it, thus convincing our enemy we don’t torture and leaving him unprepared for when Jack Baur asks “where are the nukes!”
Brick Oven Bill
Muslims can be broken down into three basic categories. As in all generalizations, there are exceptions. But here they are:
1. People of Muslim descent who try to ignore the teachings of Mohammed and live normal lives, many of these do not leave because of the punishment for Apostasy.
2. Educated people who understand the texts of Islam, and practice the faith. These are usually highly educated persons such as Ahmedinejad (civil engineer), Atta (civil engineer), the flaming British doctors (MDs), the blow-up planes crew (University students), al Zawahiri (MD), and, the worst guy of all time, Bin Laden (rich contractor).
3. Really stupid people. See the ‘good boy, a really good boy’ presently on trial in New York.
The tactic actually is sound because through it, #3s can be used to rat out #2s.
Sloegin
Great answer, except maybe for the 2 dozen (pentagon est) to 200 or so (human rights groups est) that were tortured to death while in our custody.
Halteclere
Kirk Spencer:
Here is a synopsis of a book written about mass murder of US POWs in the Korean War.
Not much different than the advice given by Abu Zubaydah:
joes527
I dunno. It would explain a bit about the torture memos that I haven’t been able to figure out.
Those memos are a bizarre mix of sadistic shit that you would have to be a truly sick fuck to stomach, and really legalistic niceties.
It is OK to slam folks head against the wall, but it must be a plywood wall, and we need to put a whiplash collar on them.
I dunno. Maybe it was all focused on “torture them, but leave no physical evidence.” Or maybe the folks at the top were just control freaks who wanted to put their personal stamp on the torture and micromanage the folks adminstering it.
But once you are down with walling, what is up with the “slam their heads against the wall … but be careful” stuff?
Hyperion
The comments on this BS oped at WaPo are running about 100 to 1 against, which is the largest ratio I have ever seen. Typically there are a significant number of dead enders arguing for the wisdom of the oped writer. This time, no.
I’m not sure what that means because much of what was in the released material has already been written about. It’s almost like it has to be confirmed by government documentation before some people will believe it. Weird.
DanSmoot'sGhost
Well, at least they are giving the subjects some respect, twisted thought it may be ….. it’s more than they are willing to do for us liberals.
Republicans: Terrorists are better than liberals.
NonyNony
@Hyperion:
Not really. The people who have been really hammering this stuff are either easily written off as “liberals” with a partisan bias or as “bleeding heart” organizations like the Red Cross who are only giving “one side of the story” because of their mission. Seeing it confirmed by “your side” makes it much more real, and harder to write off.
PeakVT
The job of the interrogator is to safely help the terrorist do his duty to Allah, so he then feels liberated to speak freely.
This is an entirely new level of upside-downism.
And I am confident this person will have a prominent place in the next Republican administration.
Zifnab
@Brachiator:
Yeah, except when they did. Some of the more repulsive cases involve men picked up and tortured, then dumped in their cells to die.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988054/
Admittedly, this is Abu Ghraib, but if you see it here you can expect to see it elsewhere. The ACLU estimates 41 “suicides” in Gitmo and has been demanding prison records to verify.
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/04/aclu_seeks_gitmo_death_records.html
Rest assured, we fucking kill people. We just do it by “accident” rather than on purpose.
blahblahblah
I think I’m going to vomit.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@Brick Oven Bill:
Even for you, this is a remarkably stupid post, man.
People who ignore the teachings of Muhammed are Muslims?
That’s your first category.
As for the rest, all you have done is divided a large demographic into two piles, one stupid and one not.
If only someone in your house would do the same thing with whatever demo you fit into.
You’re insulting us with this lame crap, Bill. Please elevate your game. Don’t let the blog bring you down to lazy brainfarting like this.
RSA
This gives me an idea: I am going to use the Sermon on the Mount–you know, all the stuff about the poor and mourning and hungry and persecuted being blessed?–as justification for making everyone around around me totally fucking miserable. It’s just the Christian thing to do, isn’t it?
Comrade Darkness
@DanSmoot’sGhost: “People who ignore the teachings of Muhammed are Muslims?”
The Catholics I know (i.e. my immediate family) ignore far more than half the edicts of the pope and still insist they are Catholic. I could see this category holding true in other edict-based religions.
Not that I agree with the rest of BoB’s point, just needed to toss that out.
Brick Oven Bill
The Quran mandates a political system, a religious system, a military system, and a social system. There is no mandate in the Qur’an to ‘leave what is Caesar’s to Caesar’. Islam is thus a total system. This total system mandates its spread around the globe and all of humanity is to be either killed, converted, or subjugated.
9:29 *** 9:29 *** 9:29 *** 9:29
Some people know this, some people choose to ignore it, and some people are clueless. The interogation tactic is very good.
As an aside Islam is a very powerful tool for those who would rule you. They can, in the name of PC, define faithful Muslims to be ‘extremists’, which is then a useful word to use against political opponents here in Dar al-Harb.
Marlowe
Wow, so torture is a faith-based initiative. It all comes full circle.
Why is it the deposed Bush administration only has any knowledge of other cultures or religions when it means they get to take a hammer to someone’s balls?
The Dangerman
I’m guessing this fucker missed Viet Nam and his chance to destroy the city order to save it.
Is there anything we can do to make sure this fucker never procreates? We need to get that kinda dumb out of the gene pool.
Krista
Yes, and I’m absolutely positive that once the individual breaks, and says “I’m honestly telling you everything I know!”, they’re taken at their word right away, and the torture stops immediately. Right?
I’m no torture expert, but doesn’t torture kind of depend on the pretext that the torturer does NOT believe the words coming out of the mouth of the tortured?
So, if the tortured person does actually break and tell the truth, the torturer is somehow equipped to immediately recognize it as the truth, and not just as a desperate attempt to make the torture stop?
And if the torturer DOES know the truth when he/she sees it, then doesn’t that imply that the torturer already knows a good deal of what the tortured knows? And if that’s the case, then why the fuck are you torturing him, if you’re already so fucking informed that you know the truth when you see it?
Goddamnit, shit like this is why I really miss booze.
passerby
Cheney’s most recent re-emergence in the media is an indication that his past involvement in all of this torture stuff CAN result in some form of prosecution. He’s running scared and fighting tooth and nail, desperately trying the keep the dogs at bay.
His decision to release even more memos as defense suggests that he’s backed into a corner and he and his minions are grasping at straws (helping captives do duty to Allah? Really?!). I can’t imagine what they’ll come up with next.
Dance, Dick, dance.
Gus
If you want to be sickened, just read the posts on torture articles on the web site of your local paper. Every possible meme that Limbaugh, Hannity, Cheney, et.al. put out there is being parroted by your local wingnuts.
omen
questionable oven bill reads better in the original german.
The Grand Panjandrum
In a previous thread here on BJ I commented that I heard Thiessen being interviewed on BBC radio. He is a classic political operative and spent much of the interview lying. He claimed that several terrorist plots had been foiled by torturing suspects. Of course this notion has been debunked on the internets but like most of the disinformation coming from the former administration they seem to think that by continuing to lie it will eventually become the “truth”. With Cheney now calling for the declassification of more CIA reports you can see the modus operandi of these criminals slowing being exposed. They figure that by twisting every word into some alternative meaning they can justify being filthy maggots.
I say give Thiessen the bastinado and let’s find out if his god will love him more when he starts screaming like the wounded animal he is.
Shibby
@Brick Oven Bill:
Do you personally know any muslims? The categories your formulated demonstrate an incredible lack of familiarity with the world’s second largest religion. It seems more like you are attempting to squeeze them into a ridiculous construct based on your preconceived notions rather than any sort of objective observation.
bago
The 9:29 bit… MYSTERY!
Zandar
Didn’t, you know, the same Washington Post put out a front page article showing that torture did not work?
And didn’t this same paper just kick its own reporters in the nuts to allow Mark Thiessen to lie all over this travesty of an op-ed?
And people wonder why newspapers are in trouble.
Bootlegger
@Brick Oven Bill:
This is *your* opinion on Islam, and one that is widely rejected by most Westerners who study those societies. It is certainly true that various political, religious, military and social elites (ab)use the Quran to legitimize their actions, the same can be said of the Bible.
srv
I’m thinking of that scene in Brazil, the one with the teletype transcribing the torture session.
Deb T
I just don’t get this from the side that supposedly values life and so-called Christian values.
They are always trotting out that phrase, “What would Jesus do?” (WWJD) – do they think Jesus would approve of torture.
Oh I know, their hypocrisy is legend, and what I just wrote is simple, obvious – but it gauls me when they so easily jump on their high horse about godless liberals.
Maybe taking a stand against torture is worth the cost they threaten us with. A lot of men and women have died in the name of this country. We’re willing to send the best of a generation off to war. Maybe the rest of us should be willing to stand for our beliefs too. No torture. The US can not sanction torture.
John PM
Slightly off topic, but I have been thinking a great deal about Cheney’s statement that Obama did not release the memos detailing the successes that resulted from the torture sessions.
I have several thoughts:
1) The OLC memos were released in response to a FOIA lawsuit by the ACLU. The memos were the only documents at issue and thus the only thing that the DOJ would have been required to either release or refuse to release.
2) I have said it before and I will say it again, had the Bush Administration successfully stopped any terrorist attacks on the United States (or anywhere else in the world), do we really think that they would have continued to keep it secret? Wouldn’t Bush and Cheney and all their apologists have blared it from the rooftops, at the very least to deflect attention from their continual f-ck ups? “Well, sure, we let New Orleans get destroyed, but we stopped Al Queda from blowing up the Brooklyn Bridge, so take that, b-tches!”
3) I strongly suspect that no such memos exist, because either all relevant information was already known or the people we were torturing were innocent and thus had nothing they could offer. I would love to see the ACLU file a FOIA request asking for these memos based on Cheney’s statements. I think that Cheney is hoping that any such request would continue to be met by the State Secrets defense. However, it would be delicious irony if the Obama DOJ were all of a sudden to drop the State Secrets defense and disclose what memos still exist. It would be even better if the Obama DOJ were to respond that no such memos exist, once and for all demonstrating what a complete lying sack of sh-t Cheney is.
Unless and until such a scenario comes to pass, however, can’t some f-cking reporter ask Cheney why he doesn’t just tell us what he f-cking learned?
SnarkIntern
@Comrade Darkness:
I know, but I can’t give bill any quarter.
Or dime, or nickel.
Tsulagi
@Zifnab:
Possibly Bagram? However, the death certificate for this 22-year-old taxi driver listed coronary heart disease as primary cause of death. In another situation the death certificate from Bagram listed accidental asphyxiation. Now accidental asphyxiation is a neat trick.
All this crap was a failure of command. At the top of the chain. Just something done so Cheney and worthless asswipes like him could feel real toughy at parties over drinks while munching cocktail weenies. Spoiled brat Commander Guy likely two-fisted near-beer with his trademark bravado.
David
“so he then feels liberated to speak freely.”
Just like psychotherapy.
sparky
What I find fascinating is that (a) the Post sees fit to print drivel like this and (b) that the piece closes this way:
Now, I could say many things here attacking the essential boo! of this, but why bother? What is interesting about it is the underlying argument that apparently national security decisions remain the sole province of the Bush administration. I don’t recall any period in US history where the former administration accused its successors in these terms. It’s as if they can’t actually believe that someone would dare to contradict their worldview.
dslak
I can think of no better way to approach a medieval Arabic text than via merely the preconceptions of a 21st century American.
sparky
@John PM: Yes, I agree. They don’t exist, and therefore they can never be disclosed! (And of course, we can’t tell you that they don’t exist, either.) Perfect. Say what you will about Cheney it’s hard not to give the guy credit for being a true evil genius. Not in acts, naturally, because aside from enriching himself he’s been a disaster, but as a master of disinformation he’s pretty damn good. Given the amount of damage he inflicted on the US, it would not be surprising to find out fifty years from now that he was a Russian or Chinese agent.
OniHanzo
I wonder if these imbeciles even test their lies in the mirror before inflicting them on the general public.
“We torture them to help them, see?”
Goddamn pitiful in every way.
JK
Hamlet: I must be cruel only to be kind. Thus bad begins and worse remains behind.
Hamlet – Act 3, scene 4
When will the last sane, rational Republican step forward and publish an open letter to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Michael Steele, Rick Perry, Michele Bachmann, Michelle Malkin, Dick Cheney, Spencer Bachus, Terry Sanford, Bush loyalists, et al and rebuke them for the torrent of venom, hatred, and lies they have unleashed? I was thinking of something along the lines of what Joseph Welch said to Joe McCarthy:
Joseph Welch: “Until this moment, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think that I am a gentle man, but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency? At long last, have you no sense of decency?”
Napoleon
You got to love a website that manages to weave something from a song into 1/2 of the titles of the threads.
I am going to have Nick Lowe songs running through my head this afternoon.
After these downer threads on torture we need a tread called “(whats so funny about) peace, love and understanding”
Bootlegger
@JK: Such a person would be declared Not Conservative and thus not worthy to speak.
sparky
@JK: Never. They can’t, because they were complicit in legitimating the virus they let loose. And because in their world power is trumps.
sgwhiteinfla
President Obama opened the door back up to prosecuting BushCo for torture just about 15 or 20 min ago. I wonder if he heard the outcry.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090421/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_interrogation_memos_2
Comrade Stuck
@Krista:
You nailed it. The torturers square root of pi.
DougJ
In the right measure, it’s a very good sign.
Brachiator
@Zifnab:
Yeah. You’re right. I was in a hurry when I did my last post. I meant to say that deliberate murder was not part of the process of American interrogation, as it was in the case of the Inquisition.
In other words, the interrogator is not really doing harm, but is giving the Muslim detainee what he deeply wants, when applying torture. It would, then, be wrong not to torture because kindness would keep the Muslim detainee from his deity.
Torturers are doing God’s work.
Idiots.
toujoursdan
So Turkey, Sénégal, etc. which are 95% Muslim must be Islamic theocracies. Oh wait! I was just in Sénégal and bought alcoholic beer on the street.
What is often missing from these religious debates is the role of interpretation. Many Muslims are able to look at the historical context such verses were written in. The Saudi Arabia of Mohammed’s day was a bit like Somalia today – plagued with inter-tribal warfare. Much of what is written in the Qu’ran was written in an effort to end tribal fighting and bring relative peace to the region.
The Qu’ran, like the Bible, is full of contradictions. On the one hand it says that Jews and Christians are “People of the Book” and that there is “no compulsion in religion” and on the other, they are called infidels. It’s easy to take one set of verses out of context and ignore the others.
Zifnab
@Bootlegger:
See, I don’t know, Bootlegger. I mean, this guy seems to know a whole lot about Islam. Maybe… a little too much? Now, I’m not suggesting that BoB is an Islamofascist plant whose goal is to worm his way into our naive liberal hearts and detonate a belt bomb of disinformation and propaganda, I’m just questioning exactly what the motives of a man can be if he’s tied himself so closely to the Great Moon Worshipping Satan Cult that attacked us on 9/11.
Can we really afford to listen to a man whose mind has been polluted by the exact same religion he so loudly professes hatred of? I think the fellow doth protest too much.
@Tsulagi:
It’s a failure at all levels. I mean, what does it say even about our individual men and women of the armed services – people who dedicated their lives to the defense of the country and its principles – that they’d stand idly by, or even join in with these abusive practices.
What does an oath even mean when you’ve got the people being ordered to uphold it BY violating it. There’s a serious crisis of conscience in our country, and our military seems to be the hotbed of it. You’ve got people joining up to fight for freedom becoming instrumental in spreading tyranny, misery, and death. It’s one more reason recruitment rates have plummeted. Fewer and fewer people are seeing military service as an honorable career path.
At a certain point, its shocking to see anyone – from four star general to latrine digging recruit – passively going along for the ride.
Bootlegger
@sgwhiteinfla: I don’t think he ever totally closed that door. He seemed very specific in saying he did not want to prosecute those CIA operative acting in “good faith” that they were following the law. This, to me, is not the same as a blanket statement of immunity for all the Bushmen. I think Obama is intentionally parsing the leaders from the foot soldiers, and that it has two positive effects:
1) Field officers are not handcuffed by fear of prosecution and can continue to do their (now) legally defined jobs.
2) The leaders who perpetrated the torture are punished, as these are the folks who need to be deterred in the future.
Richard Bottoms
It’s almost as if Obama knew that there would be such an uproar over the memos he would be forced to consider prosecution of the torture ringleaders. Wait a minute….
joes527
@sgwhiteinfla:
Maybe he is balancing progress with diplomacy, focusing on what can actually be achieved and moving the point of “what can be done” as far as he can manage.
Nah … The freak-out on the liberal blogosphere is what did it.
Ed Drone
Republicans: “Point of order, Mr. Chairman! Point of order!”
Few recall that McCarthy, following Welch’s speech, attempted to continue his sleazy ways. In other words, no, he didn’t have any decency left. And Cheney & Co. are McCarthy on steroids.
Ed
SGEW
From an interview with Dr. Angela Hegarty, who evaluated Jose Padilla’s mental health:
(Emphasis added.)
sgwhiteinfla
Bootlegger
Yes he did close the door last week, and so did Rahm Emanuel during the weekend. To the point where the White House had to walk Rahm’s words back today in the NYTimes. He changed on this from last week and for that I am grateful, but I am still going to acknowledge the change.
Bootlegger
@Zifnab: Yes, I see it now Zifnab. Perhaps he has proof of his Americanness, and for good measure his Manliness too. Without proof I’m afraid we’ll have to assume he’s One of Them.
Just Some Fuckhead
This should be entitled Kind To Be Cruel.
SGEW
Also, O/T, as a side note:
I am returning to my original position, re: B.O.B.
Ban his ass. He apparently needs another lesson in acceptable discourse.
Bootlegger
@sgwhiteinfla: Um, I didn’t hear “blanket immunity” either explicit or implied. I listened to Rahm’s interview and again, didn’t hear anything about blanket immunity. What I heard was 1) those following the law (as they understood it) wouldn’t be punished, and 2) Obama and his peeps weren’t going to be the Inquisitors. I see this as fundamentally different from saying they weren’t going to prosecute anyone.
passerby
@John PM:
Yes indeed. This seems to me to be clear and logical, though I doubt that any media entity will point this out.
Here’s hoping this will happen in a Phase II kind of way. Regardless of what Obama’s “intentions” were in reassuring (recommending actually) that the Agents who conducted the torture not be prosecuted, most of this lies in the hands of the DOJ.
Last night on Maddow, in an 8 min segment of her show, the Sen. from RI who is a member of the Senate Judiciary Comtee, had some hope-giving words about what Congress had in store for the torture folk.
If you’re looking for good, encouraging news about the fate of torture folk, it’s recommended viewing.
omen
@sgwhiteinfla:
maybe it was cheney’s incessant whining that broke the camel’s back. i swear, i didn’t hear him talk this much back when he was in office.
Just Some Fuckhead
@SGEW:
If I thought the lessons were working, I’d still be against banning him. He’s only discrediting himself, give him more rope.
sgwhiteinfla
joe527
I guess you think people on blogs only exist in the internet. That they aren’t real people and their voices are never heard.
Or maybe just maybe it wasn’t just the liberal blogosphere that was outraged. Maybe it was the more than 70% of people who disagreed with Dick Cheney when he said Obama made America less safe. Hey you can take your pick, I don’t really give a shit. But what is true is that he did change his stance from last week and refuted Rahm’s assertion from over the weekend. Something happened that much is obvious.
anticontrarian
wow. talk about destroying the village in order to save it. only, in this case, the village is our souls.
Just Some Fuckhead
Besides, everyone knows there are only two kinds of people in the world. Muslim or otherwise: those that like Neil Diamond and those who don’t. Put me squarely in the first camp.
sgwhiteinfla
Bootlegger
EMANUEL: Yes, but those who devised policy, he believes that they were — should not be prosecuted either
Hey if you don’t see that as saying they shouldn’t be prosecuted then more power to you, but my eyes see the words “shouldn’t be prosecuted”
kay
@sgwhiteinfla:
I still think you guys are missing the role of prosecutorial discretion.
This is not a minor point. It’s central to our system.
The President can’t order the federal prosecutor to not do an investigation, any more than a mayor can order a city prosecutor to not do an investigation.
He can’t do it. Rahm Emanuel can’t do it. The whole of Congress can’t do it.
Turn it around. Say President Bush was a Democrat, and Obama arrives in office and announces that these former members of the previous administration are free from inquiry.
You’d be able to hear the screaming from your living room, and rightfully so.
It goes to the prosecutor. He makes the determination.
Zifnab
@omen: The acoustics in that undisclosed location were terrible. That said, he couldn’t get in front of enough cameras during the run up to Iraq.
omen
i forget the source she cited but piggy back this on top of what rachel maddow pointed to last night. that despite obama’s foot dragging, attorney general holder was intent on investigating the torture issue.
Zifnab
@kay:
Yes, but it’s generally assumed that the prosecutor and the President are friends, or at least political allies. If the President says, “I really don’t want to prosecute you, but my AG over here is all bucking my lead…” it rings a little hollow when you know who nominated the AG to begin with.
Imagine Bush saying, “No one could have predicted Alberto Gonzales would hire and fire purely on political merits. I would never have authorized that personally.” Now try not to roll your eyes so hard you hurt yourself.
kay
@omen:
It never closed. It can’t close.
If it could, Obama could make an independent determination that Nancy Pelosi was immune to prosecution, were she the potential subject of inquiry.
He could say he wanted to move forward, right?
Nice, but no cigar. Sorry, Mr. President.
sgwhiteinfla
kay
I agree with you whole heartedly in theory but not in practice when it comes to an AG. Otherwise why did Holder himself come out and say he wasn’t interested in prosecuting the rank and file? Don’t forget that he was asked about this during his nomination also with Republicans wanting a guarantee that he wouldn’t investigate torture before they would agree to vote for confirmation. The position itself is inherently political so of the President doesn’t want to take a political risk with certain investigations and prosecutions you can just about bank on them not happening.
kay
@sgwhiteinfla:
Holder can say that. Obama can’t. Prosecutors can and do decide not to bring charges. They can’t guarantee immunity. That’s insane.
It’s perfectly ordinary and legit for Eric Holder to say new information has come to light, and he wants to file charges. It happens all the time. He’s supposed to be basing this on facts, not his personal agony.
You should be very, very worried if members of Congress and Barack Obama can immunize preemptively. It’s why the discussion on the US Attorney scandal was such complete bullshit. They ARE different. They’re not like other Cabinet members. They don’t “serve at the pleasure of the President”. Imagine if they did.
Bootlegger
@sgwhiteinfla: In context please Sarge, he was rambling about the entire statement and made that tongue gaffe which you appropriately note they corrected afterward. I heard the interview, and it seemed clear to me that he misspoke, the later clarification confirmed it.
Tax Analyst
It’s because the real purpose of torture is “to torture”. It’s an exercise in unlimited control of the individual being tortured and it’s done to break their humanity down. It’s the “Burger King”of interrogation techniques; it’s not generally used to get at the truth, but rather to “get the answer you want”. It’s been particularly useful in generating confessions for show trials in all the blood-drenched dictatorships of the past century (and probably further back than that). Plus, as an added 21st Century American Bonus, it makes the Sunshine Patriotics bristle with pride to know that brown people are being maimed and rendered insane in our name.
Comrade Darkness
@SGEW, I will support BoB. He is an obnoxious idiot, but he is polite about it. He forms an unusual troll art of unflappable stupid. And it gets too quiet without him.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
@sgwhiteinfla: Normally, I’d agree. But look man, you read the memo that went with the releases. You read the Greenwald updates that basically said they’re leaving the door open. Obama was out of town the rest of the week, and was barely asked about it.
I could see a case for them using Axelrod and Rahm as stalking horses, to see what the public’s reaction for “blanket immunity” would be. But I simply don’t see a case for Obama, himself, saying “immunity” the day of the release — then, today, saying “no immunity”. There may be a tug-of-war internally on this, and I suspect Obama does fall on the side of “not this fight right now,” thus the political capital calculators that are Axe and Rahm saying as much.
But — and this is the nuance we all claim to like the guy for — he’s also clearly aware that this is ugly for the Republic, and that some level of prosecution would be good. And my personal hope is that, on some level, the Constitution Scholar in Obama is fiercely angry about this situation. But, you know the guy — we’ll never see the anger.
I’m not happy about how this is all playing out, but I’m also mindful that this Administration hasn’t, so far, played via “outrage of the day” rules — and you know that as well as I. That’s not to say our collective voices didn’t move the needle, but it’s also to caution against putting too much behind that kind of movement.
Tsulagi
@Zifnab:
Bullshit.
Like that additional observation, but it sounds good to fit with a meme, doesn’t it? Actually…
But yeah, could be partly due to another byproduct of success on the economy from the previous administration.
Brachiator
@Just Some Fuckhead:
How about Easy to be cold…
How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy to be hard, easy to be cold
How can people have no feelings
How can they ignore their friends
Easy to be proud, easy to say no
Especially people who care about strangers
Who care about evil and social injustice
Do you only care about bleeding crowd
How about a needing friend, I need a friend
– Three Dog Night
kay
@Zifnab:
I’m just going to disagree. I see the political problem for Obama. With all due respect, tough shit for Obama. It’s bigger than him.
The prosecutor is independent. If he’s not, we have bigger problems than this issue.
Holder can’t protect Republicans to help the President any more than he can protect Democrats to help the President.
Corner Stone
@Comrade Darkness:
Admittedly, his troll-fu is unusual. Some kind of mix between Drunken Monkey and Crane Style.
I am sad to admit that he’s greatly lessened his game over the last couple months. He used to actually hit a zinger in there if the commenter anti-fu’ing him didn’t bring it back tight. Now he’s just unflappable stupid.
HyperIon
@JK:
and i thought JC was referring to the old Nick Lowe song. ;=)
oops…
Napoleon got there first.
TenguPhule
Catholic Church, history of.
TenguPhule
Actually, they do.
The reason for the scandal was that Bush was systematically abusing this to replace good AGs doing their job with corrupt hackjob burrowers that were using government as another knob of power to help Republicans and attack Democrats.
kay
One more thing, and then I’ll stop ranting.
Obama and Holder are not “friends”. They barely knew each other. This was not a crony pick.
I know I am turning into the designated Eric Holder defender, and I don’t know how I got this job, but I think he’s a good, solid lawyer, and he’ll do what he determines is legal and ethical.
Unlike Gonzales.
That, by the way, is the minimum. Legal and ethical. It’s not a huge compliment.
kay
@TenguPhule:
My point is exactly that. They are not supposed to be “political”. They are political appointees, but they have a larger duty. Eric Holder is called to look at torture as a prosecutor. He can’t even listen to Obama’s political concerns. He can’t take that call from Obama. Obama can’t make it.
The meme in the media was that Bush could sort of hire and fire at will. He can’t. He can’t order them around. We all used to KNOW why he can’t order them around.
Laura W
@Brachiator: Please see my link at #5. Because it is not only a gorgeous song, but the video is quite cool. 40 years ago!
kay
@TenguPhule:
Lay that out for me. Evidence of illegality is uncovered. The President and his Chief of Staff are allowed to order the AG not to do an inquiry?
Because it might look really bad?
Comrade Darkness
@Corner Stone, BoB has taught me something about myself that I did not know: I can tolerate a lot if it is not shrill.
TenguPhule
The hiring and firing is actually correct, technically.
It just had never been abused to that extent in a long time TTBOMK.
It’s the ordering part that was wrong, once they’re in they’re supposed to be doing their jobs without favoring any sides.
That destruction of AG impartiality is yet another reason to piss on Bush’s grave when the time comes.
Zifnab
@Tsulagi: If you trace the recruitment and retention from ’01 to ’03, you see a spike, then a fall-off over the next five years that becomes more pronounced with the length of the wars.
Either way, it doesn’t address the issue of morality and the fact that you’ve got guys in Iraq, Afghanistan, and at military bases like Abu Ghraib being ordered to do some really immoral shit.
We’ve got a country that doesn’t think it’s a problem to drop a bomb on a “terrorist” if it kills a dozen civilians because these are acceptable casualties. This mentality only gets worse the closer into the military you get. We’ve got citizens who believe torturing a guy to a confession is A-OK, but we’ve got actual CIA agents and military intelligence officers doing the interrogations – which, to me, indicates that the biggest moral crisis is in the CIA and the military itself. We’ve got paid government employees – NSA, FBI – blatantly violating the 4th Amendment by spying on domestic communications without warrant or cause. These aren’t just people talking a big game. These are people who continue to violate the law and either don’t realize they are doing so (an education issue) or don’t care (a moral issue).
That’s bad. I would argue that the guy who talks about violating laws and morals is not as big a problem as the guy who actually breaks laws and violates morals. And that, at the moment, the people who are doing this most egregiously and most often are in the military or some other government service.
TenguPhule
No, the President can hire and fire AGs who serve (otherwise known as asking them to resign).
They are not allowed to tell an AG who can and can’t be investigated during the normal course of their duties since this was considered a potential conflict of interests (i.e. people in the admin could find themselves under investigation and should not be able to tell the DOJ to back off)
kay
@TenguPhule:
I know it’s technically correct. The President can hire and fire US Attorneys. That’s missing the larger point, though. The President can’t fire US Attorneys who are pursuing an inquiry that doesn’t make political sense to them. Bush skated because they couldn’t find direct intervention. He just got rid of the prosecutors whose cases he didn’t much care for.
Obama cannot, under any set of circumstances, relate in any way to Eric Holder that he does not want Holder to use his independent judgment regarding any inquiry Holder decides to initiate into illegality.
Take it out of Republicans and Democrats. Just replace “Judge Bybee” with “Justice Ginsburg”. Now try it.
TenguPhule
I would argue this is merely quibbling over which one to shoot first.
Either way, they all deserve that bullet.
SenyorDave
What he was trying to do was imply that it is all part of a sacred contract. An example would be if I rob you at gunpoint, I will scare you enough for you to piss your pants, so you will then be liberated and be able to hand your wallet over to me.
JK
Kudos to Russ Feingold
Feingold Unloads On Peggy Noonan: “Never Heard Anything Quite As Disturbing”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/21/feingold-unloads-on-peggy_n_189473.html
TenguPhule
And on this point I agree with you. Please note my prior clarifications.
It just irritates me to see sloppy arguments based on “he can’t hire and fire at will” because Gods only know how much shit Obama is going to have to deal with when it comes to uprooting all of the enemy sleeper cells that the Bushies left in the various agencies.
kay
@TenguPhule:
I think Obama is in a real predicament if Holder decides to pursue this.
Holder will be absolutely vilified by the Right, but he will be doing his job, again, according to HIS analysis of what he has to do, not Barack Obama’s.
I know it hurts Obama politically. Hell, Holder pursuing, say, Rahm Emanuel hurts Obama politically. Are we up for that? What I also know is that the real weight of this is on Eric Holder.
I’m waiting to see what he does. If he declines to prosecute, I’ll need a set of good legal and factual reasons for that.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Comrade Darkness: BoB is sort of like the knuckleheaded kid in the neighborhood who is always tagging along. Occasionally he comes out with something that completely justifies his annoying presence. I am thinking of his lesbian wrestling comment and the follow-ons from others here which had me laughing so hard, my co-workers thought I was mad.
But mostly, you tolerate his presence because he exists mainly for depants-ing in front of the neighborhood girls or for putting a whiffle ball bat in his bike spokes.
Svensker
@Deb T:
Exactly. There are some things worse than dying and there are some things worth dying for. Apparently the Macho Right who are always talking about Heroes and Warriors don’t really believe that.
Buncha weak-ass bullies, if you ask me.
kay
@TenguPhule:
No, you’re right. It is sloppy to say “he can’t” because he CAN.
I was never able to articulate the whole US attorney ethic. I was infuriated for weeks listening to pundits brush it off as no big deal, and then listening to liberals sputter.
TenguPhule
That’s just cruel and should never be done, even to BOB.
TenguPhule
I always summarized it to my co-workers as: “He’s firing the professionals and hiring incompetent cronies who’s only idea of justice is IOIYAR.”
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@TenguPhule: He gets a rhetorical depants-ing here almost daily! I agree with the comments above about his overall politeness and that he ultimately livens things up.
srv
@kay:
Eric was the guy Rahm went to to deal with Reno. Since she wouldn’t talk to Bill. Suspected they were the two working the two sides of the Marc Rich pardon. Lots of meetings with Scooter.
valdivia
Benen at Washington Monthly reminds us that this guy is the one who declared Obama *two days after inauguration* as the most dangerous president evah! Obviously for this dude torture is the one and only thing that has kept us safe. What an idiot.
geg6
@Brick Oven Bill:
And Republicans can be broken down into two types.
1) Lying mother fuckers.
2) The stupid people who follow the lying mother fuckers; for example, see B.O.B.
You racist piece of shit. Unbelievable.
HyperIon
I’m leaning towards an independent prosecutor.
I want the scumbag Dems who were in on this to be held accountable as well as the scumbag Repubs.
Congress will just do major CYA and call it investigating.
kay
@srv:
I read up on Holder. My point still stands. Obama and Holder are not “friends”. Rush Limbaugh says they are, but that’s because they’re both black.
kay
Turns out, Dick Cheney didn’t make any “formal request” for anything from the CIA.
He was on television, so I knew he was lying.
Brachiator
@Laura W:
How could I have missed that link? You’re right, absolutely gorgeous. If YouTube didn’t exist, somebody would have to invent it.
Brick Oven Bill
What race is Islam geg6?
toujoursdan defends the Qur’an by stating that it defines Christians and Jews as ‘people of the book’, as if this gives Christians and Jew a pass in an Islamic society. Dan is kind of right.
Jews and Christians are given the option of being subjugated, and then provided physical protection in exchange for a regular payment, the jizya. Often times the jizya had to be presented with an open mouth, into which the Believer collecting the jizya would spit. People who are not Jews and Christians are simply to be killed or converted.
Turkey is a ‘moderate’ country (presently run by ‘Type 1’ Muslims) only because of Ataturk. Now that he is gone, Turkey is slowly regressing back to the equilibrium, which is a backwards society. People should read about Ataturk and his relationship with the religion of peace. Ataturk would likely not respect President Obama.
Ataturk’s ban on head scarves has recently been lifted.
disturbed
I FIND IT REALY HARD TO BELIEVE ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE THIS STUPID! OH MY GOD WE TORUTRED SOME PEOPLE, DURING THE SAME TIME THIER FRIENDS WERE KILLING OUR FELLOW COUNTRY MEN. ALL THOSE THAT ARE SO UPPSET BY THIS SHOULD BUY YOUR TICKET AND LEAVE AND GO LIVE WITH THESE ASS HOLES AND FIND OUT JUST HOW CUTE AND CUDDLEY THER ARE FACE TO FACE. AND WHEN YOU WIND UP ON A INTERNET SITE WITH A ASSHOLE STANDING BEHIND YOU WITH A MACHETTE JUST DONT EXPECT ANY ONE TO GIVE A SHIT. ITS OBVIOUS YOU HAVE NEVER SERVED YOUR COUNTRY BUT YOU FEEL THE RIGHT TO CONDEM IT, FOR TRYING TO PROTECT EVERYONE EVEN YOUR DUMB ASSES. SO KISS MY ASS YOU BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL PIECES OF SHIT AND MAY ALLAH SHIT ON YOUR HEAD!
Tax Analyst
Yes, I do believe you are “disturbed”.
deminoz
Maybe I’m wrong but somehow I doubt that we will ever get to real ‘war crimes’ or ‘crimes against humanity’ trials in the US but the fact that Cheney is now saying “release the ‘good’ info” says that he and his criminal cronies are running scared…and somehow that’s enough for me. Be scared for the rest of your natural lives….and for the first time I hope they live long ones. The bastards.
valdivia
ah the fun and games begin! pay attention to how the Villagers are now horrified–horrified I tell you–about the possibility of anyone being held accountable. This storm is just starting, if anyone is held accountable the Villagers will accuse Obama of breaking the country. Mark my words. (this is not a comment on the rightness of prosecuting, just what is happening and will happen because of it)
kay
@deminoz:
“I’ve now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was, as well as to see this debate over the legal opinions,” Cheney said.
He’s probably amazed that anyone verified this. Of course, he was lying. He didn’t “formally” do jack.
amocz
@ JK:
Of course, the reason any exhortations to show a sense of decency fall on deaf ears in these days of advanced moral degeneration of the wingnut psyche, is that the modern answer to Joseph Welch’s anguished question is: NO!
Not only do they not have any sense of decency, they don’t want one…wouldn’t pick one up off the ground if they came across it…and they suspect anyone who might harbor such a thing of being a dhimmified anti-American hippie-faggot, if not an objectively pro-terrorist agent of Satan.
It’s all a part of the End-of-Days psychology that has poisoned the Right since 9-11: once the visage of Satan appeared in the smoke pouring from the WTC, the time for compromise with Evil was officially over. Either they buy the total package of endless war with no quarter against the minions of the Anti-Christ (who, having been elected POTUS, is officially winning right now), or when the Rapture arrives (any day now!) , they might not be gwine up to Hebbin with the rest the flock.
And the Rovian genius of the GOP (yeah, I’m using the term loosely!) has been to stoke that sense of vulnerability, since nothing makes the sheep more nervous than to be separated out from the flock. In the face of that sense of existential insecurity, any and all considerations of mere decency — say, from American traditions, from what Jesus might actually have said, or from normal human empathy — must be suppressed, because it leads to the triumph of Evil over Good, and that can’t be countenanced.
Which is as funny as anything, since by their supposedly infallible Book, they already know how the story ends! The normal attitude would be to load up on popcorn in anticipation of the Big Climax to the Story of Man (A Morality Tale). Instead, they act as if they believe that, without the full-metal toadying of every last one of them, the Devil might actually pull off a last-minute touchdown drive that would render their Book a pack of lies!
Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
–AManOfConstantZorro
Tsulagi
@Zifnab:
Didn’t say individual service members doing questionable or immoral actions in Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Gitmo or whever didn’t share responsibility.
Key point is ordered. Yes, I know, following orders is no defense regarding war crimes. But remember, the previous administration backed up these actions with legal opinions. Geneva Conventions don’t apply, etc. One Yoo (I believe) opinion saying short of major organ failure (which would result in death), it’s not torture. Well, as long as it didn’t become public otherwise you would be a bad apple.
But who deserves the lion share of responsibility? The point of the spear or the bullet, or the guy pushing the spear or pulling the trigger? Easy to blame the messenger, but the message wasn’t written by them.
As I said, it was a failure of command. They warrant the major share of responsibility.
But let’s revisit that little crisis of conscious tidbit…
…with a short trip down memory lane. On the “progressive” side of the aisle. The conscientious and moral stalwarts.
Just before the 06 midterms MCA legislation from the Bush admin was on the table. Senior JAG (those are military guys) testify against it saying unilaterally suspending Geneva Conventions, torture, and suspending habeas corpus was unconstitutional and not a path this country should go down.
Maverick McCain waffled concern trolling himself before leaving these JAG officers who risked their careers twisting in the wind. Democrats who voted for it said they hated to do so, but the important thing was to win the midterms. If they could get to a majority again, MCA could be revisited and amended. Said it would be the right thing to do.
Umm, yeah. Guess in the majority that got lost in the really important consciousness-raising stuff of writing sternly worded memos and resolutions.
Two years later, Bush admin demands changes in FISA and immunity for telecoms. Though in the majority, Dems like the MUP reverse themselves on FISA. What’s a little expanded state secrets presidential power? Important thing was winning the upcoming presidential election, then progressive morality would reign.
Now we have a President Obama arguing Bagram isn’t the same as Gitmo. Argument being since it’s in a different location, the liberal SCOTUS opinion giving protections and habeas to Gitmo detainees doesn’t apply. Lost the first round in court so now appealing. If SCOTUS fails to see the logic that what is wrong at one military detention center is golden at another, maybe the Obama admin could order chaining the fuckers into planes and keep flying their asses in international airspace. That was actually considered by the last guys.
Anyway, so this “crisis of conscious” is a “hotbed” in which group getting government paychecks? Oh yeah, not with the political leaders. They’re the moral ones. That hotbed of immoral character in the military is distinguished by carrying out their orders so they would be the responsible parties.
So if they want to start on the road to redemption, obviously the military and individuals serving should ignore President Obama’s position on Bagram and instead follow the SCOTUS decision giving prisoners some rights. Right? Or does that ignoring of orders and direction stuff only apply if the CIC is from the other side of the aisle?
Good thing service members now have progressives and the Democrats in charge to show them what steadfast conscientious character and action is all about.
MattF
@kay
When I first saw that quote from Chaney I imagined that it had some relation to reality. Stupid MattF. Of course he was lying.
J. Michael Neal
Doesn’t anyone see what is going on here? Yeah, Obama is opposing prosecution. Sort of. Somehow, the Chief of Staff saying that he’s not interested in prosecution is a lot less than absolute. “Not interested in” is a far cry from “totally opposed to.”
Letting Holder do it while stating his opposition gives him some cover. It won’t stop the screeching, but it has uses for appearances. As I’ve said before, as things stand right now, prosecutions are useless. You won’t be able to put together a jury of 12 people who will vote unanimously to convict. You’re going to end up with at least one dead ender who thinks that they did the right thing. One of the necessary (but not sufficient) elements to changing this is that it must appear to be non-political. Any whiff that it is, and the chances of convictions is zero.
Much like parts of the financial rescue plan, what Obama would be saying right now if he wants to prosecute is exactly the same thing that he would be saying if he doesn’t. I don’t pretend that I know that he doesn’t mean his far-from-ironclad reluctance. Maybe he really doesn’t, but there’s no way to know. Parsing his statements is pointless. That’s not where the action is.
One of my worries is that prosecutions will never be possible. I can see a problem that the process of moving public opinion to the point that prosecution can lead to convictions will lead to valid complaints by the defense that they can’t get a fair trial. I think we’re hosed, really.
Comrade Darkness
It’s all a part of the End-of-Days psychology that has poisoned the Right since 9-11
Oh, WAAAY longer than that. See: Reagan, St. Ronnie and we have to pile up and aim enough nukes to win the final battle of Armageddon against the Evil Empire.
geg6
@Brick Oven Bill:
I stand by what I said. You are a racist piece of shit and you know nothing at all about Turks or Persians or Arabs or any of the nationalities that make up the majority of Islam. Spitting out bullshit you read online as if you know a damn thing about any of it. Others here may find your stupidity and ignorance of other races, religions, and women cute and funny, but I don’t. I know too many assholes just like you and none of them are one goddam bit entertaining. Fuck you.
iluvsummr
Sorry if someone has already posted this, but how does this sociopath reconcile his views on torture with the views of an actual military interrogator who eschewed torture *and* still got information that led to Zarqawi?
TenguPhule
Onward, brave 101st Keyboarders! Onwards to victory!
Rainboskies
I am willing to bet that 1/2 the people here rallying against torture are unmoved while babies are sucked-outta wombs everyday.
There’s those hard decisions in life…….
Paul in KY
Hey Bootlegger, I’m from Central Kentucky, near Lexington. Sorry I didn’t see your question earlier. Feeling good now UK has a decent bball coach.