Without GMC and Pontiac:
General Motors (GM), in its attempt to push its restructuring plan deeper than first proposed this year, is examining whether it makes sense to keep the GMC and Pontiac brands going, says a source briefed on the discussions.
But it may be a tough call: GMC makes money, and the plan for Pontiac was to shrink it to just one or two profitable models. Both are sold through the same Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealerships.
Still, the automaker is taking a look at every possible option for making the company smaller and leaner, says the source who didn’t want to be indentified because the discussions aren’t public.
It occurred to me while reading that story that I have no idea the relationship between GM, GMC, Chevy, Pontiac, etc.
Walker
Chrysler has similar problems. Jeep should be allowed to live. Maybe the trucks division of Dodge. That’s about it.
Calouste
Chrysler has other problems. They have less than two weeks left to convince Fiat to help them out, and Fiat is far from convinced.
Btw, if it all works out and Fiat is going to be hailed as the savior of (part of) the American auto industry, can I point out in advance that Fiat was heavily involved with the commies from the 60s to the 90s, and Fiat models were build for the local market in Poland and the Soviet Union? Just in case somone says something stupid.
Napoleon
Really?
GM is the company. GMC (which just offers trucks), Chevy, Pontiac, Olds (RIP), Buick, Cadillac, Saturn, Hummer, and the European divisions are just that divisions, or more specifically brand names that they slap on the cars. Most of GMs domestic divisions were founded as stand alone car company’s that were acquired by GM as the company was built (including stand alone companies like Delco Remy, Allison Transmission, Fisher Body, Packerd Electric, etc.).
sal
That reminds me of the hospital where my wife used to work. Her department was the most profitable, percentagewise, in the entire place. But because it was grouped with other departments that weren’t profitable, they eliminated it to save costs. They never explained how eliminating a department with an annual budget of $250K and revenues of $1.5 million saved money, but that’s what they did. The CEO, however, did get a raise & bonus that year, so it’s all good.
joe from Lowell
Chrysler seems to be selling a lot of Chargers as police cars. Doesn’t Ford make the Crown Vic for police departments anymore?
Observer
I have deep love for Pontiac going back decades but the truth is they haven’t made an exciting exterior since the 1970s that the average guy can fit into. The Solstice is a good looking car but I have yet to meet a guy over 5’10" who was truly comfortable driving it.
The 2010 Camara 2SS is what Pontiac should have rolled out as the GTO earlier in this decade. Hopefully Chevy won’t get sucked into the "exclusivity" nonsense and will really open up those production lines.
So, I’ll miss Pontiac solely based on sentimentalism. And waiting for the 2011 Camaro convertible since Chevy was too silly to have one in the 2010 and the current sunroof looks like it should be on a KIA.
baldheadeddork
GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Hummer, Chevrolet and Cadillac are the US auto divisions of GM. The divisions often share model platforms, for example the Pontiac G6, Chevrolet Malibu and Saab 9-3 are essentially identical under the skin. Same for the Chevrolet Suburban and Cadillac Escalade.
GM first organized these brands after WWII as a way to keep customers in GM products as they went through life. You were supposed to start out in a Chevy, then get a Pontiac when you had a little more money, then Buick and Oldsmobile, and so on. GM abandoned that strategy in the 60’s and started using common platforms that would appear in three or four divisions. Going to platforms saved a fortune on model development costs but it meant that the divisions were now competing directly against each another. It was (and is) an ultimately self-destructive model, but the political and financial clout of the dealers meant it was practically impossible to change the structure of GM.
baldheadeddork
Yeah, the Crown Vic is still around. It actually outsells the Charger by a huge margin but you don’t notice it because there are so many Fords in service already.
Ford did lose some sales because of how they handled a problem with Crown Vics catching fire after they were hit in the back at very high speeds. This was sensationalized by the media and a lot of departments were genuinely pissed, but in fairness to Ford this wasn’t the second coming of the Pinto. Hit any sedan in the rear at 40-60mph and you’re very likely to rupture the fuel tank and have a fire if the car is running.
Dennis-SGMM
@joe from Lowell:
Ford still makes the Crown Vic with five different police-prep packages. I think that police departments and Old Guys are the only ones who buy them.
BDeevDad
Some private investors are also looking to buy Saturn away. According to the article, GM is also trying to sell Hummer and Saab.
Eric S
@joe from Lowell
I have a friend that works at a suburban Chicago police department. When he first started they had Chevy Caprices but Chevy stopped making them. They switched to Crown Vics. There was nothing but complaints. The Vics were considerably slower, had substantial body roll, and did not handle well. I’d say it was about 2 years ago they switched to Chargers. The cops love them as they solve all their complaints about the Vics.
From my observations plenty of departments are still using the Vics but its my understanding that the patrolmen vastly favor Chargers.
PeakVT
@baldheadeddork
In addition, GM (like Ford) operates across the globe. It has long owned Opel (Europe), Vauxhall (now rebadged Opels sold in the UK), and Holden (Oz). Buick is a big seller in China. It sells a variety of models under the Chevy brand all over the place, almost none of which are sold in the US. Most overseas operations have done better than the North American division over the past 10 years, but with the recession going global it is hurting everywhere the board.
Here is a slightly dated automotive industry family tree.
Jay C
@Dennis-SGMM:
And NYC cab owners: up until just recently, Ford was the only US carmaker offering cheap fleet versions of their big sedan (Crown Vic), so most cabs in the Big Apple have been Fords for years.
Of course, now that the cab owners (Russian mobsters, mainly) are going to try to "go green", there has been some move towards downsizing/hybridizing the cars: not a great idea a lot of times: ever try to get three people in the back of a Prius?
greennotGreen
I just finished a survey about a Buick ad, but there really wasn’t a place in the survey to say why I don’t consider American cars when I shop for cars. It’s not that I think they’re bad cars; I drive my parents’ Oldfartmobile (actually, I think it’s a Buick) when I visit them, and it’s very comfortable and handles quite well. But it’s an Oldfartmobile. The only US-company cars I like are way outside my price range (like those snazzy little Thunderbirds.)
Maybe when it’s time to replace my pickup, I’ll look at a Ford or Dodge (although I doubt it because of years of mistrust,) but when the Volvo station wagon finally goes to Valhalla, I’m looking at another used Volvo or perhaps a Subaru, unless the Big Three or Two or Medium-sized One-and-a-half get off their old-fart butts and start designing something that’s both cool and affordable.
Mr. Poppinfresh
The way GM fucked up Saturn is a pretty good testament to why they are where they are today. My old 1998 Saturn, one of the last models built before they went to the shitty integrated-parts model, gets 35 miles to the gallon and runs great. How a ten year old car can get better gas mileage than today’s GM shitheaps, and yet still got cancelled, tells you a lot about the thinking that went on over there.
Sadly, because of the way Saturn was Borged by GM, I doubt they will ever find a way to spin it off viably. The fact that this was one of the few brands I would ever consider being loyal to? Oh well, tough shit.
BenA
@Napoleon:
Isn’t the Saturn Aura just a Malibu with Saturns plastic fantastic interior too? Sure seemed like it to me when I was test driving them.
Anyway I own a Ford Taraus X and a Chevy Impala… both great cars as far as I’m concerned.
I grew up in used Volvos, a Volkswagon (that caught on fire a lot), and a Toyota…. so it’s odd that I’ve never owned anything but an American car.
BenA
@greennotGreen:
I think GM has made some strides. The tried pretty hard with Olds with the Intrigue and Aurora to break out of the Old Fart mode and I think had modest success with the Aurora… but they really started doing it about 5-10 years to late. The Malibu and the newer Impalas are a step in the right direction. The biggest problem is they basically just ignored their car product lines for years or had people who’s idea of styling was to slap giant letters saying IMPALA on the side of the car… just rediculous stuff…
I mean you’re absolutely right though, a lot of this is too little to late from GM and to a lesser extent Ford… and I’ve owned an Olds Intrigue and a Chevy Impala… but Lincoln and Buick are absolutely old fart cars… and could someone please explain to me the point of Mercury… it seems like an even more pointless brand than most of the GM lines.
Napoleon
@BenA:
I though I read somewhere that it was an Opel, and a well regarded Opel at that (I have always wondered why Opels quit selling under their badge in the late 60’s/early 70’s, they make some great cars).
Bill In OH
I would think that from an image perspective, they would want to keep Pontiac and ditch Buick. In spite of the fact that the Lucerne and Lacrosse get decent reviews, they are still hopelessly saddled with the "old guy car" image. Pontiac, with the Solstice, G6 and G8 (all good-looking, if slightly odd designs) would have a better shot at capturing younger buyers. Maybe fold the Lacrosse in as the new Bonneville or something and They would have a nice line.
Of course, I’m just some shlub, so what do I know?
Also, I hope GM does sell Saab. They completely ruined that company’s products. Much like Ford did with Jaguar, without the benefit of making them reliable.
Cathy W
@BenA: I’d always had the impression that Mercury was supposed to be Ford’s mid-line brand, but it had the same problem as Plymouth – at one end of the line they totally overlap with Ford, and at the other end they totally overlap with Lincoln. Ford could probably drop the Mercury nameplate altogether and I’m not sure the car-buying public would notice. (Has anyone actually noticed Plymouth is missing?) But I don’t think Ford has, or Chrysler had, the issues GM does with their dealership structure that would make just dropping nameplates difficult.
And yes, Lincoln is an old-fart car, but there’s a market for old-fart cars. Having driven Hubby’s old-fart grandparents’ vehicles I’d pick a Lincoln over a Cadillac any day should I find myself shopping in that market.
Throwin Stones
@baldheadeddork: 100% in agreement.
Just another of GM’s issues going back a few decades was the same car across 5 brands in direct competition with one another – Chevy Cavalier, Pontiac Sunbird, Olds Firenza, Buick Skyhawk, Cadillac Cimmaron.
Or Chevy Monte Carlo, Pontiac Grand Prix, Olds Cutlass Supreme, Buick Regal.
Why they kept this internal competition so long is another part of the problem.
mr furious
GMC makes money because they only sell high-margin vehicles—trucks and SUVs. That’s a bullshit argument though, as no one has yet to convince me that GM wouldn’t sell every single one of those vehicles as Chevys.
They are essentially running two completely redundant product lines out there with all the costs—dealers, advertising, marketing, management, not to mention and the badge engineering and assembly, etc—just to sell the same exact trucks.
FoMoCo does the same shit with Ford and Mercury—which is essentially Ford with a vertical grill fetish. At least Chrysler has weeded down the duplication across their lines—they used to make two of everything also.
Andrew
I think it’s unlikely that they’ll eliminate GMC and Pontiac, given that they’re in a unified dealer network with Buick, and Buick and GMC are doing well, relative to GM as a whole.
They may reorganize these three into a more unified organizational structure.
Chevy and Cadillac are safe. Every other domestic brand is dead.
BenA
@Napoleon:
Ahh did some reading and the Aura is a bit different… and was released earlier, they seem to have almost the same line up though, both have a Hybrid model… They’re close enough that I thought they were identical except for the trim when I was test driving them…. Christ does Saturn have a thing for LEDs.
JGabriel
Screw the Pontiac. If GM wants a profitable car, they should create something with way high MPG and bring back the Nova brand to sell it.
Updated to add: On further reflection, Nova would be a perfect brand name for a solar hybrid.
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Napoleon
@JGabriel:
Using the name Nova for one of there model names was one of the all time f-ups for GM, at least in so far as they tried to sell it in Spanish speaking countries (Nova = No va = No go).
Screamin' Demon
GMC and Pontiac had a close relationship for many years. Both were manufactured in Pontiac, Michigan, sold in unified dealerships, and some GMC models used Pontiac engines until the end of the 1950s.
GM owes its existence to Buick. The company wouldn’t have survived its first ten years without it. Best car I ever owned was a ’62 Buick Electra 225, a car from the days when Buicks were Buicks, and each GM marque had little in common with each other, particularly in engine design.
Napoleon
@Screamin’ Demon:
Which reminds me of another all time f–up by GM management with advertising the famed "Oldsmobile Rocket" engine, except they were not putting Oldsmobile Rockets in all the Oldsmobiles.
OriGuy
@Napoleon: The "Nova" didn’t sell in Spanish-speaking countries" story is an urban legend.
JGabriel
Napoleon:
Oops. I did not know that. I remember the Nova as a better than average car with its heyday in the late 60’s-early 70’s. I was kid then, though, so my memories are probably tinged by, not nostalgia (no one who lived through them could be nostalgic for the 70’s) but, a child’s lack of judgement.
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Quiddity
Pontiac has 7 models sold domestically. Buick has only 3.
I agree with Bill in OH that it makes more sense to ditch Buick and keep Pontiac.
Napoleon
@OriGuy:
What do you know – thanks.
ArtV
@BenA:
The Aura, Malibu and G6 are all built on GM’s Epsilon platform, which was designed primarily by Opel and was launched as the last Vectra (which was recently replaced by the Insignia, on the Epsilon II platform).
As someone else pointed out, the cars share parts under the skin, but the bodies and interiors are unique to each model.
GM has recently unveiled a new Buick on the Epsilon II platform and replacements for the G6 and Aura were scheduled to use it as well until GM decided that they weren’t selling enough of either model to justify replacements.
ArtV
@Quiddity:
Unfortunately they sell more Buicks than Pontiacs, and as someone else mentioned, Buicks are sold in China and since it happens to be the single best selling brand in that country, it’s not going anywhere.
Joel
Why not kill the arbitrary groupings and sub-brands?some dealers get soaked but that’s fucking business. Consolidate all the profitable products under one brand.
Mike G
can I point out in advance that Fiat was heavily involved with the commies from the 60s to the 90s, and Fiat models were build for the local market in Poland and the Soviet Union?
I don’t see the relevance of this for anyone except the John Birch crowd. GM and especially Ford were strong supporters of Argentina and Chile’s military dictatorships in the 70s. The Ford Falcon became synonymous with Argentina’s murderous death squads.
Any of these companies would happily do business with the most odious dictators on earth if there was no blowback.
stickler
People should realize that, for whatever reason, Wikipedia’s entries for automobiles are surprisingly comprehensive. Most of the time you get the brand name, the history of brand, history of the model, where it’s built, how many they sold, and on and on. I’m sure it’s because car geeks are obsessive-compulsives, or maybe there’s a schmoe in a cubicle in Dearborn who’s been tasked with updating stuff.
_From my observations plenty of departments are still using the Vics but its my understanding that the patrolmen vastly favor Chargers._
Regarding Crown Vics: they’re ancient. That platform was, literally, introduced in 1978. This has some (obvious) disadvantages, one being that cops get to experience Starsky-and-Hutch handling characteristics. But there are advantages, too: it’s incredibly robust, it’s easy to maintain and fix, and parts are cheap.
One other advantage — the Chargers, with their Mercedes platform and the Hemi engine actually handle TOO well. Lots of cops are very good drivers … but hardly all of them are. The bad drivers are less likely to kill themselves and/or others with a wheezing Crown Vic than they are with a lightning-fast, 380 horsepower Hemi Charger.
PanAmerican
Back in the day A. P. Sloan flooded the market with multiple marques to pound down the competition while skirting anti-trust laws. Divisions used to produce unique vehicles. Now days they’re all pretty much hashed out of the same parts.
They could continue to produce and sell vehicles called the Pontiac Whatever or GMC Grabowsky while dumping the corporate bloat. What they’re really talking about is getting out from under the dealer structure and count. The Oldsmobile dealer buyouts went over a billion. In order to flip the dealers the bird and step around fifty versions of state franchise law they’re going to need a Chapter 11 reorg.
Ask somebody involved in fleet maintenance about the Crown Vics. POS.
jerry 101
@Napoleon:
This is, alas, apocryphal.
http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp
shep
Let’s call it Chevrolet and call it a day.
Panurge
ISTM the relationship between the brands mentioned above still lives: Chevy is the meat-and-potatoes brand, Pontiac is the sporty brand, Buick is the sober, austere old-guy brand, Cadillac is the showy old-guy brand. (My dad could afford a Cadillac, but he’s bought nothing but Buicks since 1993.) Oldsmobile seemed to be for middle-aged people who still wanted something a little sporty. I drove a Pontiac Sunfire for more than five years until it got totaled; I was very pleased with it and hardly had a problem with it. The only problem was that it wasn’t a hatchback, which it could easily have been.
The distinction by now, of course, is largely down to the externals; I bought a Sunfire precisely because I liked its looks better than the Chevy Cavalier’s and was willing to pay the three hundred or so extra bucks. On pure esthetics, the G5 and Cobalt are a (small) step down. And still no hatchback; I might have let it slide otherwise. I guess GM figured they could sell the same car to different demographics this way instead of creating competition between the divisions, as I guess might’ve occurred between, say, the Chevy Camaro and the Pontiac Firebird.
As a side note, I have no problem being nostalgic for the ’70s. I do have a problem living in a world where I have to be–remember, that was a world where Ronald Reagan hadn’t become President yet and not too many people were even seriously considering it, if nothing else. (And one where backward hadn’t become the new forward and popular music acts could really reach musically and expect much of their audience to be with them. People are down on the ’70s because it seems like a comedown from the ’60s, but that’s kind of unfair, ISTM.)
Panurge
OK, I’m sorta wrong here: The late ’70s is when backward became the new forward. But that’s actually more the fault of "liberals" than "conservatives", for lack of a better word.