So say the Spanish:
Spanish prosecutors will recommend against opening an investigation into whether six Bush administration officials sanctioned torture against terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay, the country’s attorney-general said Thursday.
Candido Conde-Pumpido said the case against the high-ranking U.S. officials — including former U.S. Attorney-General Alberto Gonzales — was without merit because the men were not present when the alleged torture took place.
“If one is dealing with a crime of mistreatment of prisoners of war, the complaint should go against those who physically carried it out,” Conde-Pumpido said in a breakfast meeting with journalists. He said a trial of the men would have turned Spain’s National Court “into a plaything” to be used for political ends.
And since there appears to be no willpower to investigate here in the US, that should just about send this down the memory hole.
bayville
Oh well, nice try. Now it’s time to look forward and move on.
smiley
I think he’s right. As much as I hate what was done, an international show trial is not in the best interest of the country. They need to be prosecuted here.
BTW, BREAKING NEWS! John Madden has retired. [eyes roll]
SGEW
Another shoe might drop today; another clue to prop up the CIA?
Still holding my breath.
Robertdsc-iphone
Goddamn it.
mgordon
Great, it would be a shame to distract from the historic Tea Party movement with something trivial like war crimes.
The Moar You Know
Nice to see the principles of conduct established at Nuremburg flushed down the toilet by apathy.
Incertus
It’s not the fact that they won’t prosecute that bugs me so much as the reason they gave for not doing it. They’re being way too tight with that definition of who’s prosecutable.
Joey Maloney
Pardon the OT but I can’t wait for another teabagging post. This is a giant plate of win drizzled with awesome sauce:
DFH blogger speaks at Pensacola Tea Party
What do you call it when you monkeywrench a teabagging?
Bill White
Spain uses a different system.
The magistrate who is bringing the charges is the same person who prosecuted Pinochet and if I recall correctly, the prosecutors office was against the Pinochet prosecutions as well.
Ian
"Nice to see the principles of conduct established at Nuremburg flushed down the toilet by apathy."
Agreed; and by that logic, Bin Laden shouldn’t be tried for anything dealing with 9/11.
joe from Lowell
That reasoning is exactly backwards.
You’re a CIA interrogator. The people ordering the torture are far more culpable than the people who followed the orders.
They executed Himmler. They generally gave camp guards a few years in the clink.
Bill White
From the link . . .
True, however the magistrate is the SAME PERSON who took the highly unusual step of sticking with the Pinochet prosecution. And in many ways, the prosecutors statement "Can’t charge the superiors only the underlings" (a reverse Nuremberg defense?) is helpful to an actual prosecution.
My Prius rolls on dubs
This will always be a black mark on America, but I think with the benefit of hindsight smart future administrations can adopt the "a few reckless and rogue individuals" idea and apply it to the Bush administration.
America doesn’t torture, but Shrub and Co. did. Nevertheless, a huge and distracting trial here in the U.S. would use up all of Obama’s political capital and most likely accomplish very little. I think he prefers to, you know, GOVERN.
Stoic
I’m so glad we elected Obama to look into these crimes. Oh, wait…
Zifnab
@Incertus: Yeah, I’m not really buying that either. Did we just prosecute Nazi war criminals who were standing right outside the gas chambers? Did Milosovich get off scott free on account of his remoteness from the Albanian massacres?
I mean, if we’re going to go back to, "It’s not murder if you didn’t pull the trigger" as a defense against war crimes… exactly what are the point of war crimes?
This is going to get shoved under the rug and forgotten as fast as possible. Makes you long for the morally stalwart days of Nixon and Vietnam.
Just Some Fuckhead
Republicans are never held accountable which is why they push the bounds even further next time they’re in power. I wonder what criminal delights they have in store for us next time?
Cat Lady
That whooshing sound you just heard is Di Fi, Chuckie Schumer and Mikey "not every violation of the laws are crimes" Mukasey sighing with relief. And the Villagers. Also.
DougL
So when Spain issued the arrest warrant for Pinochet, was it alleged that Pinochet was actually present when people were tortured, murdered, or disappeared under his regime?
SGEW
I really hope Horton posts on this: as far as I can tell he’s actually in regular contact with the Spanish prosecution team.
Also, re: the the OLC memos that are supposed to be released today, I highly recommend keeping an eye on Greenwald today for updates.
JGabriel
Not to get all Godwin, but isn’t that kinda like saying international law should prosecute the concentration camp guards, but avoid bringing charges against Himmler, Heydrich, and Mengele because it would be too political?
I mean, torture is torture. Conde-Pumpido seems to be admitting that torture happened, but saying the people who ordered it can’t be held accountable.
If Conde-Pumpido really thinks the charges are politicized, that’s one argument – but that’s not the supporting argument he made here.
.
Hyperion
so "they were just following my orders" has now been validated as an affirmative defense.
rumpole
That’s just great. The guy that says to his guards "Set his testicles on fire, using only a bic lighter and kingsford starter fluid" is "not guilty" because hey, all he did was order it.
Wonderful. I bet there’s a lot of guys from the Jersey construction business that would love to be able to use this defense.
MH
On a lighter note: "Candido Conde-Pumpido" is an extremely fun name to say out loud. Try it, it will brighten your morning.
Zifnab
@Hyperion: Actually, no. This is innocence on the grounds that they "were just issuing orders".
Only the Lynda Englands get prosecuted in this brave new world of buck-passing.
Comrade Darkness
Candido Conde-Pumpido
There is no where to go after this.
Except perhaps a Gilbert and Sullivan opera.
El Cid
Spain’s investigating judge Baltasar Garzon has had various prosecutions of high government leaders such as Chilean tyrant Augusto Pinochet and Argentinian junta officers precisely for being not the physical actors of a crime, but for being intellectual authors of a policy which led to direct high crimes such as torture.
Same goes for prosecutions of ETA. They don’t just restrict prosecutions to those ‘physically present’ for some ETA terrorist or lawbreaking attempt.
This is contradictory to say the least.
Krista
What utter horseshit. So the people who actually gave the orders are completely innocent? That’s the stupidest goddamn thing I’ve ever heard in my life.
Comrade Dread
This is why I always hire minions to do my lawbreaking. Because it’s a well known legal doctrine that as long as you don’t do the deed yourself, you face absolutely no jail time for ordering others to do it.
Just ask all of those people who solicited hit men who are now enjoying the hospitality of the United State penal system.
El Cid
Oh — I spoke too soon. Looks like final call indeed goes to judge Baltasar Garzon — with which the Interior (led by Conde-Pumpido) is having a furious dispute with Spanish police forces, accusing the of listening to Judge Garzon and not Interior in investigating charges against political leaders of the Basque separatist /nationalist parties.
Ouch.
sgwhiteinfla
This ain’t over yet. I expect that judge won’t give a fuck about what the prosecutor said and push the investigation anyway. Now the question becomes did anybody in the WhiteHouse pressure the Spanish to back off the investigation. I am sure I am not the only one thinking that might have been a possibility.
JGabriel
@Hyperion:
Worse. The defense Conde-Pumpido validated was "Hey, I was just giving the orders. It was the other guys who followed them."
.
El Cid
In unrelated news from the Spanish newspapers, Hungary’s economy is at risk due to the, um, softening of its formerly vivacious pornography industry.
JGabriel
@MH:
Yeah, that’s one of the best names since Boutros Boutros-Gahli.
.
JGabriel
@El Cid:
No fair, not enough pictures.
.
El Cid
@sgwhiteinfla: Baltasar Garzon doesn’t give a flip about pressure. Seriously. You don’t think he was being called by representatives of then right wing Prime Minister Aznar and Tony Blair and Bill Clinton and asked to lay off prosecuting the U.S.’ best Chilean buddy Pinochet?
Garzon said, thanks, but no thanks, this MF’s going to jail. And for a short time, Pinochet was held, and this was enough to establish the political reality for investigation and prosecution back in Chile, since the magnificent tyrant was no longer untouchable.
Bill H
I do wish the Spanish decision had been withheld until after the Obama decision on the OLC memos. I have become cynical enough about Obama to think that the Spanish not pursuing the issue will make it easier for him to bury the OLC memos and further his cause of keeping the whole issue under the rug.
smiley
@sgwhiteinfla:
No, you are not.
The Grand Panjandrum
I always hoped Obama would surprise us and have his DOJ launch an invetigation. But he always was circumspect with regard to this issue and never made a commitment to actually prosecute anyone.
And in more good news it looks like the NSA "overcollected" emails of American citizens. No one could have known this would be the result of the previous administration’s determined efforts to abrogate the 4th amendment. The fetid cesspool created by these crooks and thieves is going to take a generation to drain and clean up.
Face
OT:
With the revelation that the NSA "overstepped" their wiretapping authority, I’m afraid someone’s going to have to enter Greenwald’s house with a good carpet and ceiling cleaner, as surely his head just exploded.
It’s like Congress gave a gun to a child, told him to use it "correctly", and now is astonished to find out he "overstepped" the rules and shot a shitload of squirrels with it. Only the squirrels are federally protected animals, or some such squirrel/citizen analogy.
Balconesfault
@Joey Maloney: This man wins my "Big Balls" award for the year! I’m glad the teabaggers got to feast on them.
sgwhiteinfla
Face
Actually Glenzilla basically said he wasn’t going to be outraged by it because he saw it coming and said so at the time. Plus he doesn’t want this story to obscure the REAL story today of whether Obama releases the OLC memos.
Balconesfault
@Stoic:
Actually, I voted for Obama because I was convinced he was the candidate most likely to END those crimes.
I’m still hopeful…
Tsulagi
That’s not the trendline…
El Cid
John Cole: Please update with the information that decision on whether or not to move forward with the case resides with investigating judge Baltasar Garzon, and not the prosecutors’ office which made this negative recommendation.
Judge Garzon has contravened prosecutors’ recommendations before, and we will likely not know his decision on this case for several weeks.
sgwhiteinfla
Not encouraging
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58kgM-alMXk
John PM
Who exactly decides if the U.S. instituate war crimes proceedings against these alleged war criminals (damn presumption of innocence!)? I am not at all clear on everything I have read. Is it Obama? The DOJ? Does Congress have a role to play? Part of me still holds out hope that Obama is going to keep using the Bush powers and making the Bush arguments until Congress grows a spine and takes back its fucking authority, but that part is rapidly losing faith.
What I want to know is, where did these decisions take place: DC, Maryland, Virginia, somewhere else? If the federal government isn’t willing to do anything, then can’t a state take some action and indict these alleged war criminals for state law crimes (e.g., conspiracy to commit murder, false imprisonment, etc.).
The whole situation boils down to this: Spain is investigating a sitting judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit for authorizing the use of torture even though torture was (and is) against U.S. law. At the very least, can’t the Senate impeach this one alleged war criminal? Yes, the Republicans (and probably a few Democrats) will resist this, but might not the threat of such an attempt convince this alleged war criminal to at least resign from the Ninth Circuit? I mean, we have to start somewhere. I am going to write to my Senators and suggest this.
Tom Betz
IIRC, the Spanish AG initially recommended against the prosecution of Pinochet, too. That didn’t stop it from going forward.
Dennis-SGMM
@El Cid:
It’s a lamentable side effect of refusing to probe bush.
sgwhiteinfla
My conundrum right now is that President Obama is being judged by many of us on the left, myself included, at times based on stuff that he had nothing to do with. Now I suppose the fact that he isn’t just rushing to put out all the information is enough of a reason to indict him but when you really think about it many of the people who voted for him are starting to turn from him not because he ordered torture but because he won’t release the details of who did, not because he spied on people but because he won’t explain who was spied on and by whom, not because he has detained anyone at Bagram since coming into office but because he is still denying those rounded up by somebody else habeus rights.
I understand both sides of the argument and I also understand all the OTHER messes he is trying to dig us out of last night. Thats pretty much why I haven’t slammed him just yet because no matter what anybody says he came in with more different things to clean up that his predecessor fucked up than probably any President in history. At least when FDR came in the war hadn’t started yet. So while I am not exactly thrilled wrt his covering up for Bush or not exposing his administration enough so far for the fraud it was I am trying to give him at least a year to see where he is going as far as that goes. Now if he starts detaining people or starts spying on people or starts another war then I will be first in line screaming at him but I guess I am too worn out from worrying about financial stability to get just stomping mad about stuff that he didn’t really have a part in.
(I realize he voted for FISA but I am talking about the implementation of it.)
AL
How do you say "citizen’s arrest" in Spanish?
At least now Spain can be spared the wrath of O’Reilly.
Ninerdave
Gee maybe if Bush has waterboarded a member of Congress we might have gotten some action. You know Cheney wanted too.
Funny how when it’s one of their own, then it’s deserving of an investigation.
JK
Bill O’Reilly can finally shut the hell up about Spain. I’m sure Spain will be thrilled to know that O’Reilly is ending his travel ban against their country.
SGEW
@sgwhiteinfla:
It’s complicated, huh? I find that teasing out a few threads is helping me a bit.
A) Detention:
1) The Executive’s legal power of detention during a time of war.
2) Procedures for determining the legal status and eventual release of detainees.
3) The extent of Congressional and Judicial oversight of the detention process.
B) Reconciliation:
1) Successful prosecution of the previous administration for torture.
2) Maintaining "intelligence community" support for counter-terrorism programs.
3) Building safeguards to prevent future abuse by the Executive branch.
C) Intelligence and Secrecy:
1) Intelligence, privacy, and the Digital Age (Isn’t it time we talked about Echelon?). In my opinion, this is an almost entirely different subject, requiring much more nuanced attention than is currently given.
2) Clandestine operations. Those SEALS don’t usually spend their time shooting pirates, and I’m pretty sure that most of their operations never make the nightly news. We’ve got a lot of hammers in the toolkit, and the world is full of nails.
3) Alphabet soup, sleepers, No Such Agency, off-the-record committees, and other unaccountable members of the "community." Quis custodiet indeed. See also B(2), above.
Tricky stuff indeed, especially their interactions.
It was a lot simpler when the Executive was so obviously, egregiously violating basic principles (it also brought many of these issues to wider attention, which may be the best outcome in the long run, methinks). Open-and-shut opposition to torture and utterly unaccountable detention clarified the mind wonderfully. But now we have to buckle down and tackle some really sticky subjects that were festering for quite a while before Mssrs. Bush, Cheney, Yoo, and Rumsfeld showed up.
My biggest beef with the Obama administration so far may be that they’ve been so bloody closed-lip about these things, while we’re sifting through the briefs and trying to read tea leaves (O! Marty! Say something!) but I’m still willing to give them a little more time before I make any subjective calls. More info please.
RememberNovember
Thank Abraham Lincoln for getting the ball rolling on shitting upon habeas corpus….
MNPundit
Well phooey. Now nothing will ever happen to them.
Balconesfault
@sgwhiteinfla:
Yep – some of these programs are like a speeding train, where the conductor sees a hobo passed out on the tracks ahead. Obama has taken over, and he is trying to slow the train down, but the only option to running over the hobo right now might be derailing the whole thing.
I’m really pissed that we’ve held all these detainees for this long with the scarce basis that we have on many of them. I don’t think Bush gave a damn that these men’s lives were being run over. I think Obama cares, but he’s not sure how to stop fast enough to prevent more deaths without endangering everyone inside.
JDM
This distinction as against he US system is neither subtle nor unimportant:
That report isn’t binding and magistrate Baltasar Garzon, known for trying to put former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet on trial, will decide whether to press ahead with a criminal investigation. Spanish law allows courts to probe incidents that happened abroad in the cases of war crimes and genocide.
Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero is seeking to improve U.S. relations, which have been strained since he pulled Spanish troops out of Iraq in 2004 after al-Qaeda bomb attacks in Madrid. Zapatero, a Socialist, met President Barack Obama on April 5 in Prague, where Obama said he was happy to call Zapatero a “friend.â€
from http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index.php?/news/comments/spain_prosecutor_against_probing_guantanamo_torture_allegation/
passerby
I can’t bring myself to believe that the perpetrators of torture, whether they’re the Okay-ers of or Doers of, will be allowed to pass quietly into the history books.
I’ve gotta believe that the legal posturing is just that, posturing. Since we all know that torture is illegal and that it was approved and used anyway in violation of US Law and international treaty, and we know by whom, I’m hoping that the Obama administration understands that this is no time to be reckless. This could be cat and mouse.
I don’t think this dance is over yet. We’re just reacting to the chessmove du jour.
AnneLaurie
… but it won’t be the generation currently in charge, if they can only succeed in holding their noses long enough. To extend the metaphor, the political climate in this country will never be strong & healthy while we’ve got this wellspring of raw filth oozing poison in the cellar, but nobody in management is willing to put on the breathing mask & hip waders to go down and do the hard potentially dangerous work of cleaning it out.
TenguPhule
It was torture, but we’re not going to prosecute the CIA agents for it.
Well Fuck.
Obama’s first major fuckup.
TenguPhule
Whip out the flamethrowers and go to town.
Lee
Isn’t it likely that the release of the memos is intended to drum up public outrage? Once the public gets whipped up (no pun intended), then the congress and executive can proceed with the "mandate of the people". It seems like the long play that Obama uses so effectively.
binzinerator
@JGabriel:
Nothing Godwin about it. It’s simply common sense and reasonable justice. And yes, the US and its allies made it a point to make the leaders responsible. And do not forget that the British executed several Imperial Japanese concentration camp commandants for the war crime of waterboarding their prisoners. As Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington, Yoo and others promulgated, approved and implemented at least this abomination, if they had done this in 1944 even in the rank of colonel they would have hanged.
IOKIYAR. No wonder the republican party is the largest criminal enterprise in history, and it isn’t just the ‘paper’ crimes of graft, corruption, market manipulation and incompetence they are guilty of.
BTW, it’s not Godwin when what you’re talking about it are actual, documented war crimes. Why can’t we mention what Bush, Cheney and their followers did was akin to murder and torture and crimes against humanity when in fact what they really did was murder and torture and crimes against humanity?
binzinerator
@sgwhiteinfla:
Yes, this is big because nothing can happen in an information vacuum.
I am inclined to think that Obama is saying, I’ll give you the information and you decide how you want to deal with this (and how you want to be remembered for how you dealt with this). He can state now how he won’t go after CIA flunkies (and considering Nurnberg, isn’t going after the CIA flunkies like going after the camp guard sargents?) but if the nation demanded a new Hague I do not think he would subvert it.
I don’t think he’s going to go on a crusade (however morally right it may be). He’s going to move only when the public makes enough noise to move him. He’s leaving it up to us to define our character (or, considering the last 8 years, to confirm or reject our new definition of it). Actually, as a politician who understands the need to govern the country, he’d be a fool to do otherwise whether he is morally sickened by the Bush war crimes or not.
It’s really not about Obama being up to it. It’s about what we are as a nation. It’s about what we ultimately believe in. I’m not confident a majority of us will prove we are worthy of something to look up to.
binzinerator
@Lee:
Oops. What I said is pretty much what Lee said, only he or she said it some hours before.
I don’t think ‘drum up’ it the right words though. Perhaps ‘measure’ might be more appropriate.
“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.” — Martin Luther King, Jr.
We think it is Obama who is this man, the one who is being tested for his depth. But in fact it is us.
futzinfarb
@MH:
That observation was spot on! Kind of Edward Lear meets Dr. Seuss.
PhysicsFun
@futzinfarb:
Really, much more Edward Lear meets Gabriel Garcia Marquez