Glenn Beck’s America

I’m afraid we are going to see a lot more of this:

A man opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said. Friends said he feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns.

Three officers were killed, said a police official at the scene who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. Police spokeswoman Diane Richard would only say that at least five officers were wounded, but wouldn’t give any other details.

***

One friend, Edward Perkovic, said the gunman feared “the Obama gun ban that’s on the way” and “didn’t like our rights being infringed upon.” Another longtime friend, Aaron Vire, said he feared that President Obama was going to take away his rights, though he said he “wasn’t violently against Obama.”

Perkovic, a 22-year-old who said he was the gunman’s best friend, said he got a call at work from him in which he said, “Eddie, I am going to die today. … Tell your family I love them and I love you.”

Perkovic said: “I heard gunshots and he hung up. … He sounded like he was in pain, like he got shot.”

Vire, 23, said the gunman once had an Internet talk show but that it wasn’t successful. Vire said his friend had an AK-47 rifle and several powerful handguns, including a .357 Magnum.

And, of course, when you point out that certain individuals with all their talk about “revolution” and “armed insurrection” are inciting this kind of behavior in unstable people, you will get howls of protest about the 1st Amendment and what not. Sure, crazy people do crazy things. But that doesn’t make it responsible to encourage them, which is what a lot of really foolish people are doing right now for purely political reasons.

If nothing else, the next few years is going to mean full employment for Dave Neiwert.






157 replies
  1. 1
    MattF says:

    And don’t forget the craven and amoral people (including the one whose name sounds like Mupert Rurdoch) who are encouraging it in order to make money.

  2. 2
    Rainy says:

    I feel bad for those cops but…

    the gunman feared “the Obama gun ban that’s on the way” and “didn’t like our rights being infringed upon.” Another longtime friend, Aaron Vire, said he feared that President Obama was going to take away his rights, though he said he “wasn’t violently against Obama.”

    What the hell? This is not logical at all.

    He shot three cops because of that or was he a complete loon? Talk about going overboard.

  3. 3
    JL says:

    But that doesn’t make it responsible to encourage them, which is what a lot of really foolish people are doing right now for purely political reasons.

    Last July an unstable man shot up the Unitarian Church in Tennessee. He wanted to kill liberals and democrats. The right wing talk show folks only care about increasing their audience size. It doesn’t matter that some of their viewers or listeners are on the edge. Show me the money.

  4. 4
    Paul L. says:

    Is David Neiwert ever going to correct his 90 % lie?

    Yet, in fact, what has the NRA up in arms is that the government in fact is trying to enforce the existing law — which means cracking down on American gun dealers and gun shows:

    U.S. gun stores and gun shows are the source of more than 90 percent of the weapons being used by Mexico’s ruthless drug cartels, according to U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials.

    Of course David and the commenters here will ignore this because it comes from Fox News and they can not refute it.

    There’s just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it’s a big one:

    It’s just not true.

    In fact, it’s not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

    What’s true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency’s assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

    But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

    "Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

    Can someone post a link to a liberal News source (NYT/MSNBC) that refutes this?

  5. 5
    Will Danz says:

    And, of course, when you point out that certain individuals with all their talk about “revolution” and “armed insurrection” are inciting this kind of behavior in unstable people, you will get howls of protest about the 1st Amendment and what not. Sure, crazy people do crazy things. But that doesn’t make it responsible to encourage them, which is what a lot of really foolish people are doing right now for purely political reasons.

    I was young and politically naive around the time of Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma City, but I remember sitting next to a guy on a plane shortly after the attack.

    He seemed like a sane, OK guy at first, but little by little started making the argument that it was actually CLINTON’s fault that McVeigh did what he did — that he had no choice, and it’s understandable to do what he did when faced with the Clinton Administration.

    I asked him how he justified blowing up babies in a day care center, as McVeigh did. He said, in so many words, that it was kind of a shame, but that’s what has to happen when tyrants like the Clintons are in charge. The Clintons had actually killed those babies.

    THAT is the kind of people the Fox / Republican propaganda machine is working overtime to inflame.

  6. 6
    John Cole says:

    @Paul L.: There is a difference between a lie and being wrong, and in this case, it appears Neiwert was only wrong in what source he cited.

    Every thread, you have nothing to say about the topic at hand, just launch into some vendetta on someone briefly mentioned. You are the stereotype of the ignorant Rush listener.

  7. 7
    Dennis-SGMM says:

    @Paul L.:
    That’s why we need the Bush administration back. According to you, we can’t trace weapons found in Mexico to their country of origin. OTOH, the Bush administration could trace weapons found in Iraq to Iran with 100% certainty.

  8. 8
    SGEW says:

    Important detail from the article:

    Another friend, Joe DiMarco, said the suspect had been laid off from his job at a glass factory earlier this year. DiMarco said he didn’t know the name of the company, but knew his friend had been upset about losing his job.

    Unemployed (and I’m sure his unemployment was Obama’s "fault," somehow) and, yes, clinging to his gun. Possibly hopped up on Beck’s tirades and jebus juice. How many of these people are out there?

    Also:

    Vire said his friend had an AK-47 rifle . . . . Tom Moffitt, 51, a city firefighter who lives two blocks away, said he heard about the shooting on his scanner and came to the scene, where he heard "hundreds, just hundreds of shots. And not just once — several times."

    I was just talking about gun controls and the classification of "Assault Weapons" and all that with someone (e.g., should open bolt autoshotguns be banned? I sure think so), and I was coming around to the idea that there is a needless amount of attention put on full auto restrictions, seeing as how most mass gun crimes are committed with semi-auto handguns and/or rifles. But, ya know, there really is just something terrifying about the idea of "machine guns" in private hands, some line of potency that is crossed, in visceral perception if not in statistics. I am interested to see if this issue is raised by this incident.

  9. 9
    KXB says:

    My sister lives in Squirrel Hill, and my parents in NY, who never seem to shut off the TV, called me to see if I heard anything. I was a bit nervous – the few scenes they showed on TV were of a typical Pittsburgh neighborhood, and while I was sure she was safe, I wanted to know in which neighborhood the shooting took place. She stayed at a friend’s place in Bloomfield, and was fine. She was watching the news with her friend, and it looks like the police are drawing it to a close.

    This is where local newspapers still serve a valuable purpose. Rather than checking CNN, I figured the Post-Gazette would have more info since they know the area. Their website had a nice detailed report, without resorting to scare tactics.

    As for those who follow Glenn Beck, Hannity, Rushbo et al – it is interesting that when Ahmedinajad or some no-name imam talks like a nut, we are told by these guys that we, (and when they say "we", they really mean someone else) need to take action. But when they talk like a nut, they get multi-million dollar contracts.

  10. 10
    JD Rhoades says:

    PITTSBURGH – A man opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said. Friends said he feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns.

    And killng police officers will make this less likely to happen how, exactly?

    Somehow I don’t think this guy thought his cunning plan all the way through.

  11. 11

    It is obvious that John Cole does not watch the Glenn Beck show because Beck repeatedly states that the worst thing that could happen with his ideologically-based initiative is for anyone to turn violent.

    On yesterday’s show, Beck canceled a special because of Binghamton and instead implored anyone who was considering suicide because of their circumstances to not take their own life as it is a mistake in all cases. He talked about his mother’s suicide and how she thought she was doing the right thing and how she was wrong.

    You can tell Beck’s message is effective because of the cheap shots taken against him. This one was beneath you John. He bases his ideologically based initiative on the Constitution and what he argues is its timelessness. For this he is attacked.

    The person responsible for this is the gunman. The closest outside influence that could perhaps have influenced the gunman was his government lying about the Mexican gun trade, setting up a transparent straw-man.

    The percentage of guns in Mexico from the US is not 90% as Hillary and the ATF have repeatedly claimed. The number is reportedly 17%, and the percent of that number that were inter-government transfers to Mexico from the US was not disclosed.

    My guess is that it is over half.

  12. 12

    It is obvious that John Cole does not watch the Glenn Beck show because Beck repeatedly states that the worst thing that could happen with his ideologically-based initiative is for anyone to turn violent.

    Oddly enough, I’ve never heard Barack Obama, Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann, or any other liberal figure feel the need to tell their audience not to turn violent. I’ve also never heard of Barack Obama, Rachel Maddow, or Keith Olbermann fans carrying out a mass murder.

    When you pour gasoline around, telling the pyromaniacs who show up not to light their matches doesn’t get you off the hook.

    You can tell Beck’s message is effective because of the cheap shots taken against him.

    I thought we could tell his message was effective because of all of the bodies piling up.

  13. 13
    Ash says:

    @Brick Oven Bill: Beck on the shooting in Alabama:

    BECK: But as I’m listening to him. I’m thinking about the American people that feel disenfranchised right now. That feel like nobody’s hearing their voice. The government isn’t hearing their voice. Even if you call, they don’t listen to you on both sides. If you’re a conservative, you’re called a racist. You want to starve children.
    O’REILLY: Sure.
    BECK: Yada yada yada. And every time they do speak out, they’re shut down by political correctness. How do you not have those people turn into that guy?
    O’REILLY: Well, look, nobody, even if they’re frustrated, is going to hurt another human being unless they’re mentally ill. I think.
    BECK: I think pushed to the wall, you don’t think people get pushed to the wall?

    He obviously thinks these psycho people have a basis for their murderous rampages, which comes from "the left"

  14. 14

    Glenn Beck’s America is a real place, and has real inhabitants, but he isn’t responsible for them.

    They are the children and grandchildren of the people who used to listen to HL Hunt and Lifeline, and to Dan Smoot, and quote material from the John Birch Society.

    Beck didn’t invent these people, and isn’t responsible for them. He is just one of their mouthpieces hired by a tv network that trades in appealing to that demographic.

    When I think of these folks, I think of the guy I bumped into at Safeway a couple months ag (and mentioned at the time). Staring angrily at a news video near the checkout stands, the guy snarls at me, "Niggers. The whole world is nothing but niggers now."

    The crazy part of America isn’t going away, but we can always outnumber them.

  15. 15

    The person responsible for this is the gunman

    .

    So he wasn’t influenced by political events?

    The closest outside influence that could perhaps have influenced the gunman was his government lying about the Mexican gun trade, setting up a transparent straw-man.

    Yes, he was probably just upset because the reports about the Mexican drug trade set up a straw man. Except that’s not what he told his friend when he called him. Rather, he mentioned Barack Obama taking his guns.

    Gee, why would anybody want to do that?

  16. 16

    Remember, everybody, the biggest domestic terrorism threat we face comes from environmentalists.

  17. 17

    Sure, crazy people do crazy things. But that doesn’t make it responsible to encourage them, which is what a lot of really foolish people are doing right now for purely political reasons.

    Nuh-uh. If Bachman, Beck &c. were to shut up (or had never started spewing bollocks in the first place) this sort of shit would still happen. Assuming fear of losing his guns is what triggered a domestic disturbance (doesn’t make sense does it?) the result would still be dead cops.

    I can’t wait to see Cornfediot Wanker’s take on this one. "See?! If only police officers were allowed to carry guns … Uh."

  18. 18
    Mnemosyne says:

    Is David Neiwert ever going to correct his 90 % lie?

    Sixteen (16) people dead by gun in less than 48 hours and all Paul cares about is one statistic that was misquoted. Because, as we all know, perfect statistical accuracy is much, much more important than mere human beings, especially when they’re dirty immigrants.

    Right, Paul?

  19. 19
    Dennis-SGMM says:

    I wonder what accounts for the fact that, despite eight years of liberal outrage at the Bush administration, no one from the left ever shot a bunch of people because of what the administration had done or might do.

  20. 20
    wasabi gasp says:

    @Brick Oven Bill: Yes, Glenn dispenses a lozenge for crazy. If you can escape the FEMA camp, he’ll give you one.

  21. 21

    It’s a bad thing for somebody with Beck’s background to have a cheering section going as he heads farther around the bend. He wasn’t real well balanced at CNN but there seemed to be some sort of leash, now not only has Fox cut the leash; they’re actively encouraging him. People with an A&D background do badly in such a scenario.

  22. 22
    John S. says:

    because Beck repeatedly states that the worst thing that could happen with his ideologically-based initiative is for anyone to turn violent

    And then proceeds to rant and rave like a lunatic for the specific purpose of whipping people into a frenzy and turning them to violence. But I guess since he issues a disclaimer, it’s all good, right BOB?

    By the way, since nothing is too obvious for you, BOB, it’s worth pointing out that unless you are inciting violence, you don’t need to repeatedly state that people who listen to you shouldn’t turn violent.

  23. 23
    Dennis-SGMM says:

    @ThymeZoneThePlumber:

    They are the children and grandchildren of the people who used to listen to HL Hunt and Lifeline, and to Dan Smoot, and quote material from the John Birch Society.

    I’d forgotten Dan Smoot. Your mention reminded me of the pernicious bastard and, in turn, L.A.’s own Joe Pyne. The wingnut continuum exists.

  24. 24

    I have been watched Beck’s 13MAR show with a group of people at a restaurant, and attended another event at someone’s home. I have also been hanging out around in this forum for a while. I can state that what I witness here is a clear order of magnitude less civil that what I have witnessed at those two gatherings, which seem typical to me based on the photos the other groups post online.

    There are routine references to violence in this forum, including references I have witnessed towards individuals. The topics of conversation at the two Beck gatherings I attended were the Constitution, community, organization, and food preservation. There is one coming up where they are going to talk about a book.

    I am becoming convinced that the talk about Beck is Freudian projection. The left gets a real pass on this issue.

  25. 25
    Zach says:

    Is it bad that I half want the NY shooting to have been motivated the same way so that it can be combined with this and exploited into shaming Beck/Bachman/et al into shutting the fuck up? I’d rather this be nipped in the bud now than winding up with more Waco’s and McVeighs down the line. Obviously this doesn’t mean that I’m pleased in the slightest about either incident, but some good could come out of it.

  26. 26

    He bases his ideologically based initiative on the Constitution and what he argues is its timelessness. For this he is attacked.

    Incorrect. He is attacked because he’s a gaping sphincter chasing ratings on a platform of propaganda. Whether or not his "ideology" or "initiatives" are based on the Constitution really isn’t the objectionable part at all.

    "People kill people all the time" is a really shitty argument to make when a gunman walks into a church during a children’s theater program with the intent to kill liberals and then attempts to do so, or some whackjob locks a group of immigrants in a room for the sole purpose of wholesale slaughter. In my little corner of the world it has always been, and continues to be, the wingnuts playing Army Of One with their frakking toys that pose the worst threat to personal safety, society and civilization in general.

    And for the rabble rousers out there, I support Second Amendment rights and will continue to do so, even in the face of carnage cheered on by vertically fornicated morons like Glenn Beck.

  27. 27

    I can state that what I witness here is a clear order of magnitude less civil that what I have witnessed at those two gatherings, which seem typical to me based on the photos the other groups post online.
    There are routine references to violence in this forum, including references I have witnessed towards individuals.

    And yet, there have been exactly zero (0) mass murders committed by liberals who cited the words of prominent liberal pundits to justify their crimes.

    Gee, maybe "the left gets a real pass" because the left isn’t doing or saying anything dangerous.

  28. 28
    MikeJ says:

    The Arabs have decided to jack up the price of oil another twenty per cent, and the C.I.A. has been caught opening Senator Humphrey’s mail, there’s a civil war in Angola, another one in Beirut, New York City’s facing default, they’ve finally caught up with Patricia Hearst, and —

    (she flips the Daily News over so BARBARA can read it)

    — the whole front page of the Daily News is Howard Beale.

  29. 29

    He bases his ideologically based initiative on the Constitution and what he argues is its timelessness. For this he is attacked.

    Actually, he’s attacked because his incites violence, and tells people to prepare for a violent revolution.

    How telling that you don’t even recognize that there is a difference.

  30. 30
    Numberwang says:

    Oh dear god, that Tally Road ad. I know times are tough, but…wow, I thought it was joking. It is not.

  31. 31

    Nothing new under the sun.

    The Constitution is clear, it means exactly what it says.

  32. 32

    I’d rather this be nipped in the bud now than winding up with more Waco’s and McVeighs down the line.

    Unlikely. Too many gasbags cashing in big on wingnut anger to stop it now. Cross Ruperts’ 2-Minute Hate channel with Colt Manufacturing, and it’s just a matter of time.

    It does have the corollary effect of exposing this batshit craziness for what it is – hate and fear coalescing into outbursts of violence, cheered on by the gibbering fascists cashing the checks on the Fox Propaganda channel.

  33. 33
  34. 34
    John Cole says:

    Test.

    You’ve only been commenting here for four years. I’m sure your shocked that you got thrown into moderation with your fifty-third name change.

    At least I caught it before the 25 comments from you bitching about being stuck in moderation.

  35. 35
    gbear says:

    the gunman feared “the Obama gun ban that’s on the way”

    There is not one atom of my being that is interested in gun ownership so this is going to sound like I’m from Mars:

    If the NRA was in any way self-aware, they’d start doing some outreach mailings or workshops to counteract the shit that apparently drove this guy over the edge. If it’s been the NRA that’s been pushing this ‘Obama wants your guns’ bullshit, then they better become aware that they’ve destroyed the ‘responsible gun owner’ brand. You’d hope the NRA would have an interest in seeing that people who use their products don’t go on insane killing sprees.

    How nuts is the NRA?

  36. 36

    @Numberwang: Not remotely. I guess its fine, if that is your thing.

  37. 37
    Mike in NC says:

    The crazy part of America isn’t going away, but we can always outnumber them.

    And surround them. Oh, wait. That’s the Glenn Beck brigades.

    Sixteen (16) people dead by gun in less than 48 hours and all Paul cares about is one statistic that was misquoted.

    Maybe statistics, like facts, have that well known liberal bias?

  38. 38
    MJ says:

    What a silly stretch to try slime Beck with these nut cases. But if you feel a great need to find a place to blame on what influences this type of thing, I have a better source for you. Just look at the widely bogus story pushed by the Administration and others on the left that 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States. When these bogus stories get exposed for the fraud that they are people start wondering what is behind the deception and conclude it is part of an effort for more gun control.

    Nice effort to demonize Beck. The fact that this guy in an awful time slot and beats all the left wing slanted prime time shows on CNN and MSNBC in the ratings must be irritating.

  39. 39
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    GOP, when yer core supporters are this demonstrably stupid, uninformed and gullible then you can’t even send dog whistles any more without being on the hook for the results.

  40. 40
    someguy says:

    Typical winger.

  41. 41
    scarshapedstar says:

    Randomly killing innocent people in order to intimidate a populace, and taking your own life in the process… I coulda sworn that wingnuts used to consider this a Bad Thing when the Jihadis did it.

    Gee, I wonder what the fuck changed?

  42. 42
    Mike in NC says:

    How nuts is the NRA?

    Find a copy of "American Rifleman" and you’ll get a pretty good idea. Maybe less nuts than "Soldier of Fortune". I’ve known people who subscribed to both.

  43. 43
    scarshapedstar says:

    @MJ:

    But if you feel a great need to find a place to blame on what influences this type of thing, I have a better source for you. Just look at the widely bogus story pushed by the Administration and others on the left that 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States. When these bogus stories get exposed for the fraud that they are people start wondering what is behind the deception and conclude it is part of an effort for more gun control.

    Okay, so, basically wingnuts are paranoid about misunderstood statistics and that’s license for mass murder.

    I am so glad I avoid socializing with wingnuts.

    Nice effort to demonize Beck. The fact that this guy in an awful time slot and beats all the left wing slanted prime time shows on CNN and MSNBC in the ratings must be irritating.

    Not really. Glenn Beck’s CNNHN show was unfailingly the absolute least-watched show on all of cable news for, what, two years? I don’t like CNN but watching them piss money away on that pudgy, unwatchable jackass in a token effort to appeal to his mouth-breathing fans was just painful.

  44. 44

    Just look at the widely bogus story pushed by the Administration and others on the left that 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States. When these bogus stories get exposed for the fraud that they are people start wondering what is behind the deception and conclude it is part of an effort for more gun control.

    First of all, this is why the right-wing has lost the internet wars: because the only use they can think of putting it to is to endlessly repeat a talking point sent down from above. They’ve taken a break from endless discussion of teleprompters to endlessly repeating this line.

    Second, thanks for the admission that you sympathize with this guy. If there is a decent right in this country, I haven’t seen it.

  45. 45
    gbear says:

    The fact that this guy in an awful time slot and beats all the left wing slanted prime time shows on CNN and MSNBC in the ratings must be irritating.

    The fact that Obama wasn’t a rich white man and beat all the right wing smear merchants must be irritating.

  46. 46
    Zach says:

    @MJ: I don’t know that I’ve heard the 90% number, but I do know that gun trafficking from the US to Mexico is a huge problem that was investigated at the Federal level long before gun-grabbing socialists came into power. Given the inherent risks in transporting firearms to Mexico, it seems logical to think that there’s an outsized demand for American arms there.

  47. 47
    Krista says:

    I wonder what accounts for the fact that, despite eight years of liberal outrage at the Bush administration, no one from the left ever shot a bunch of people because of what the administration had done or might do.

    And yet, WE were the unhinged ones.

    Go figure.

  48. 48
    LauraNo says:

    Oddly enough, I’ve never heard Barack Obama, Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann, or any other liberal figure feel the need to tell their audience not to turn violent. I’ve also never heard of Barack Obama, Rachel Maddow, or Keith Olbermann fans carrying out a mass murder.

    When you pour gasoline around, telling the pyromaniacs who show up not to light their matches doesn’t get you off the hook.

    I’ve never seen a mainstream or liberal website have to keep comments hidden either. Very open to everyone. Try going to Michelle Malkin’s or Bill O’Reilly’s sites to read comments. You can’t, not allowed. I’m afraid to imagine what they’re hiding…

  49. 49

    I have been watched Beck’s 13MAR show with a group of people at a restaurant

    Did a lesbian and an Asian woman tear each others’ shirts off?

  50. 50
    MJ says:

    Given the inherent risks in transporting firearms to Mexico, it seems logical to think that there’s an outsized demand for American arms there.

    The numbers aren’t the 90 percent being reported. Not even close.

    The fact that Obama wasn’t a rich white man and beat all the right wing smear merchants must be irritating.

    Yes, the Cooks County smear machine was marvelously more effective.

    Second, thanks for the admission that you sympathize with this guy. If there is a decent right in this country, I haven’t seen it.

    I sympathize with what guy? A ‘decent right’ refers to what exactly? The Second Amendment right perhaps? Joe if you live near the Dracut House of Pizza go get your self a nice lunch and then get back to me with something a bit clearer.

  51. 51
    GSD says:

    By the way, I’ll apply the same wingnut logic that Malkin and Shlussel use in regards to Muslims when writing my headline for this incident.

    Registered Gun Owner Goes on Murderous Rampage.

    Responsible gun owners, ptooey.

    -GSD

  52. 52

    I sympathize with what guy?

    Yup. That’s why your first reaction to his evil is to appease him, demand that the administration apologize for saying something that angered him.

    A ‘decent right’ refers to what exactly?

    I know it’s difficult to even imagine what one would look like, but I’m thinking about a right-wing that deliberately whip up hatred and treat their fellow Americans as the enemy. It’s tough to visualize exactly what this would look like, I know, but I’m hopeful.

    Joe if you live near the Dracut House of Pizza go get your self a nice lunch and then get back to me with something a bit clearer.

    Umm…yeah, when you are familiar with the use of the term "right" and "left" as descriptions of political orientations and movements, maybe you can lecture me on the clarity of my thought, chief.

  53. 53

    @John Cole:

    I wasn’t testing moderation, assbite.

    I was testing the site’s cookie mechanism. Handles, email addresses and urls for commenters are stored in cookies. The mechanism doesn’t always work out here IRL.

    I post from a couple dozen combinations of machines, browsers, and ISPs in the course a couple days. Keeping any part of that in sync is a big pain in the butt.

    You are bitching about handle changes? You might want to discuss that with DougJ and get back to me.

  54. 54
    MJ says:

    And yet, WE were the unhinged ones.

    Go figure.

    Yes, when you make a great leap to lay blame like this you are the unhinged ones.

    Oddly enough, I’ve never heard Barack Obama, Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann, or any other liberal figure feel the need to tell their audience not to turn violent.

    Who said: "My administration, is the only thing between you and the pitchforks."

    I guess you forgot about the Air America talk radio network talking about shooting President Bush.

  55. 55
    MJ says:

    I know it’s difficult to even imagine what one would look like, but I’m thinking about a right-wing that deliberately whip up hatred and treat their fellow Americans as the enemy.

    You’re projecting the left wing tactics.

  56. 56

    @MJ:

    I guess you forgot about the Air America talk radio network talking about shooting President Bush.

    Sure, but that was Laura Bush calling in to the show.

  57. 57
    Terri says:

    Recently, I had a conversation with an aquaintance about " Obama coming to take our guns". She recounted how her whole family, who are avid Glenn Beck watchers were driven to get their CWPermits and start stockpiling ammo. Knowing the process, I couldn’t help but mock "teh stupid" of going to all the trouble of making sure the gubmint knows everything about you, (fingerprints, address, copy of Driver’s lic,etc.) so when the "scary negroes" come to take their guns, and all that ammo that’s going bad sitting in the Fla humidity for years, they’ll know right where to find them.

    Id be willing to bet, that the coming to take your guns rumor is being fueled by gun manufacturers, and the NRA, for making LOTS of money off of people, easily scared and easily fooled.

  58. 58
    Zach says:

    @MJ: The number is higher than 17%. According to NewsBusters, traces aren’t attempted on 83% of weapons; usually because they don’t have a traceable serial number. However, if I were going to break several federal laws in the process of profiting off of the illegal sales of weapons to Mexico, I doubt I’d be bothered by breaking an additional one and filing off the serial number. I realize it isn’t easy to completely remove a serial number, but it’s doubtful that Mexico would go through the forensics required for thousands of guns a year, and there’s an obvious benefit for the gun smuggler’s supplier to not have it traced back to him.

  59. 59

    MJ,

    Please list all of the murders committed by liberal opponents of George W. Bush.

    K thanks.

    You’re projecting the left wing tactics. I guess I projected them right onto Glenn Beck, G. Gordon Liddy, and Wayne LaPierre.

    And the Unitarian Church murderer, and now this murderer in Pittsburgh.

    Reality has such a liberal bias.

  60. 60
    Paul L. says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    all Paul cares about is one statistic that was misquoted.

    Does misquoted mean completely distorting the situation?
    Blaming U.S. gun laws and dealers for the violence in Mexico while overlooking the weapons that the US government supplied.
    I guess that the neocons could use the same excuse for "Saddam had WMDs".
    Do 90 Percent of the Guns Used in Mexican Drug Crimes Really Come From America?

    In other words, not only are U.S. politicians flat wrong when they say that 90 percent of the guns used in Mexico’s drug war are coming from U.S. gun dealers recklessly selling legal American guns to cartel straw buyers, they’re ignoring the fact that a not-insignificant number of the guns used by the cartels likely came from the U.S. government, in the form of the drug war aid.

  61. 61

    Hey, look over there! Look over there!

    No no, over THERE! You’re supposed to look over THERE!

    I guess Paulie doesn’t want to discuss the effect wingnut media is having on this country. Gee, I wonder why?

  62. 62
    daryljfontaine says:

    Rightwing fucktardery: reducing useful debate to "Nuh-uh" and "I know you are, but what am I?"

    GTFO of the 2nd grade, you pathetic, whining, mewling little pustules.

    D

  63. 63
    MJ says:

    Joe this:

    deliberately whip up hatred and treat their fellow Americans as the enemy.

    The folks on the left never do that. I guess I must be one of those bitter Americans that can’t stop clinging to guns and religion.

    Did you order from Dracut House of Pizza yet? I think your blood sugar is getting low. I suggest either the Syrian pizza or the spinach pie.

  64. 64
    Graeme says:

    I just realized what this guy was doing… He’s taking the Bush Doctrine to the streets.

    He believes there’s an immanent threat, so he’s striking first at targets of opportunity.

    He’s just a ‘Rogue Republican’ on a mission!

  65. 65
    SGEW says:

    I guess I must be one of those bitter Americans that can’t stop clinging to guns and religion.

    This is a distinct possibility.

  66. 66
    The Other Steve says:

    This is like the 2nd or 3rd attack in the last couple of weeks which has involved assault weapons and dead police officers.

    No doubt about it, this will result in the assault weapons ban back on the table.

  67. 67

    The folks on the left never do that. I guess I must be one of those bitter Americans that can’t stop clinging to guns and religion.

    Clearly, you are. Your bitterness becomes more and more apparent with each post.

    So, how’s that list of liberals who’ve carried out mass murders like this coming?

    What’s that? I can’t hear you.

  68. 68
    MJ says:

    It zoomed over your head as I knew it would Joe. LOL

  69. 69

    The folks on the left never do that.

    Nope. In fact, liberals go out of their way to explain why their political opponents aren’t bad people, just mistaken. For example, they quote you just referenced.

    You know, an example of a left-winger who was incited to blow up a federal building would do just fine, too. Or maybe one who broke into an abortion-counseling office and killed the anti-abortion activists.

    The right has a monopoly on political violence in this country, and has for more than a generation. I trust you’ll be able to link to all sorts of news stories proving me wrong.

    Tick tock.

  70. 70

    Yeah, LOL, I was pwning you on even that lame stretch even as you were clicking Submit.

    You have no argument. Calling someone bitter isn’t an incitement to kill them. Saying you need to offer a more appealing economic program isn’t the equivalent of calling for an armed revolution. Saying that people whose votes you are seeking need to have their concerns addressed isn’t calling them the enemy.

    Nice try, but you look like an idiot even trying to argue this.

  71. 71
    SGEW says:

    . . . an example of a left-winger who was incited to blow up a federal building . . . .

    Closest thing the left has done was the Weather Underground’s bombing campaign which, ’tis important to note, successfully managed to avoid hurting anyone. That’s as extreme as it gets: property destruction while purposefully avoiding any injuries.

    I’m pretty sure Liddy and McVeigh didn’t care if the buildings were occupied, or if there was any warning.

  72. 72

    …and took place almost forty years ago.

    There was definitely something pathological, something poisonous, about left-wing politics in this country a generation or two back.

    Now, and for literally decades, that sort of thing has been the sole provenance of the right.

  73. 73
    Comrade Luke says:

    Why are we debating percentages? The Mexican drug lords are in part being armed by US weapons and that needs to be stopped as soon as possible, if possible. Done and done.

    And I can’t tell you how surreal it is to see a wingnut posting as "Paul L.", which would be my handle if I used my real name. Makes my head hurt.

  74. 74
    bago says:

    "far left projection" is far less lethal than kinetic projection.

  75. 75
    MJ says:

    The right has a monopoly on political violence in this country,

    I guess you forgot the Seattle Riot in 1999. Please note with all the Tea Party Protests going on all over the country none have been violent.

  76. 76
    Officious Pedant says:

    Well, Paul L.:

    I’ve got CNN, the the San Francisco Chronicle, The New York TImes, and Wikipedia. You’ve got one article by two Fox News "journalists", parroting the NRA talking points.

    I say, if you want refuting, first you need a decent argument. Come back when you have one.

  77. 77

    I guess you forgot the Seattle Riot in 1999.

    And the body count from that was…?

    Oh. Right. Zero.

    Do you really not understand the difference between murder and vandalism, or are you just playing dumb?

    Political violence is the sole provenance of the right in this country.

  78. 78
    SGEW says:

    I guess you forgot the Seattle Riot in 1999.

    I haven’t forgotten. Is that as close to "homicidal violence" you can come up with? F’realz? Mostly nonviolent protest, passive resistance, and some property damage by a minority of the "rioters"? As opposed to straight up homicide committed by deranged men with guns?

    Wow.

    Please note with all the Tea Party Protests going on all over the country none have been violent.

    This is probably the nicest thing anyone can say about them, so far.

  79. 79
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Paul L.:

    Does misquoted mean completely distorting the situation?

    Because ignoring the deaths of 16 people in 48 hours isn’t distorting the issue at all.

    I understand why you don’t want to talk about actual people actually being killed by actual gunmen when you can misquote statistics, but you can’t really expect the rest of us to ignore the fact that 16 people were shot dead in less than 48 hours. I realize that you don’t care that people are dead so you’d rather jabber about statistics, but some of us aren’t sociopaths.

  80. 80
    MJ says:

    Joe I understand you said:

    The right has a monopoly on political violence in this country,

    Riots aren’t violence in your book. Blame Beck for these deaths is a great stretch at best. Nothing he says comes close to the outages crap on Air America talking of killing the President.

    Did you get the food yet from Dracut House of Pizza? You know if you go and pick it up your self they sell booze and you can have a few shots while you wait for your food.

  81. 81
    AnneLaurie says:

    I wonder what accounts for the fact that, despite eight years of liberal outrage at the Bush administration, no one from the left ever shot a bunch of people because of what the administration had done or might do.

    Beck, Malkin, and their even-less-talented followers would tell you it’s because us left-wing moonbats are all p*ssies who don’t have the courage of our convictions. Because "Shut up, is why" works much better as a rebuttal if it’s backed up with the threat of force… right? Very, very right!

  82. 82
    Jrod says:

    So, for MJ, overestimating the percentage of weapons that Mexican drug lords obtain from the US will inevitably, and justifiably, lead to mass murder. That’s right, when some gun nut brutally murders over a dozen people, with a list of grievances that come straight from Glenn Beck, it’s really all Dave Neiwert’s fault for using a bad statistic in one of his articles. Is that really the line you want to use?

    Then, for MJ, busting out some windows and flipping over some cars are equivalent to gunning down a large group of people, because heck, they’re both violent, amirite?

    How do you sleep at night, MJ?

  83. 83
    mossback says:

    To blame this on Glenn Beck is absurd. If anything I’d blame it on Obama. His strong arm socialist tactics are driving the citizenry to purchase guns at record rates. American society is not made to function the way Obama wants it to. American society functions best when the Constitution is upheld.

  84. 84
    Tax Analyst says:

    Brick Oven Bill
    I have been watched Beck’s 13MAR show with a group of people at a restaurant, and attended another event at someone’s home. I have also been hanging out around in this forum for a while. I can state that what I witness here is a clear order of magnitude less civil that what I have witnessed at those two gatherings, which seem typical to me based on the photos the other groups post online.

    Yes BOB, and we have all read with horror of the incidents where BJ commenters upon reading "George Bush is a fuck-head" grabbed the nearest AK-47 in their living room and went out and massacred scores of innocent folks. I’ll never be able to erase the tragic images from my mind. OH…wait, none of that ever happened. Maybe you’re just referring to "violence in the mind". Yes, a terrible thing.
    Like "Murder In My Heart For The Judge" (A song by the group "Moby Grape" from around the late 1960’s)

    There are routine references to violence in this forum, including references I have witnessed towards individuals. The topics of conversation at the two Beck gatherings I attended were the Constitution, community, organization, and food preservation. There is one coming up where they are going to talk about a book.

    Hey, we talk about all kinds of shit other than violence and mayhem. For instance, there have quite a few threads where folks debated the level of your unhingedness.

    And I read a book last year…I think.

    So there.

  85. 85

    MJ,

    Riots aren’t violence in your book.

    Oh, riots are definitely violence. People get killed in riots. Rioters attack people. See "Florence and Normandy."

    Vandalism, on the other hand, is not violence. Vandals don’t attack people.

    This is one of those remarkably easy points you have to really work not to understand.

    Nothing he says comes close to the outages crap on Air America talking of killing the President.

    So ourtrageous, you won’t quote it!

    BTW, speaking of killing the president, the FBI broke up two conspiracies to kill Barack Obama so far, three months into his administration. Bush? Why, that would be zero.

    The right holds a monopoly on political violence in this country.

    And the only place I’d eat in Dracut is Scali’s.

  86. 86

    Scali’s?

    Scoli’s?

    Scola’s?

    That place up off of Bridge Street.

  87. 87

    If anything I’d blame it on Obama. His strong arm socialist tactics are driving the citizenry to purchase guns at record rates. American society is not made to function the way Obama wants it to. American society functions best when the Constitution is upheld.

    Admission from a right-winger that their ideology leads to violence.

    When faced with a political leadership that doesn’t do their bidding, they consider violence a reasonable and appropriate response.

    In their own words.

  88. 88
    Jrod says:

    Mossback also believes that mass murder is justified because Obama is, like, a sockilist and stuff. Also, even tho mass murder is totally a cool thing as long as we have a black Democrat as president, Glenn Beck is in no way responsible when people follow his rhetoric to its obvious conclusion, because, uh… sockalism an stuff.

    Mossback, how do you sleep at night?

  89. 89
    LD50 says:

    American society functions best when the Constitution is upheld.

    Did you start advocating the stockpiling of guns when Bush/Cheney started tossing out the parts of the Constitution they found inconvenient?

    Oh no, I forgot, you only care about the 2nd Amendment. Silly me.

    Shorter Mossback: "OH BOO HOO HOO! THAT SCARY NEGRO LIBERAL IS *FORCING* PEOPLE TO BUY GUNS AND START SHOOTING PEOPLE! WAAAAHHH!"

  90. 90
    LD50 says:

    Nothing he says comes close to the outages crap on Air America talking of killing the President.

    Citation, please. Or STFU.

  91. 91
    mossback says:

    Don’t you dare put words in my mouth pal. I never espoused any violence nor justified it. Try using your brains for once and not jumping to ridiculous liberal conclusions.

    You know nothing of American society in general nor its history.

  92. 92
    LD50 says:

    Don’t you dare put words in my mouth pal. I never espoused any violence nor justified it. Try using your brains for once and not jumping to ridiculous liberal conclusions.

    "To blame this on Glenn Beck is absurd. If anything I’d blame it on Obama. His strong arm socialist tactics are driving the citizenry to purchase guns at record rates."

    Lying sack.

  93. 93
    mossback says:

    I beginning to think I’m dealing with children here.

  94. 94
    LD50 says:

    I beginning to think I’m dealing with children here.

    This from the man who blames police shootings on Obama. Bravo.

  95. 95
    mossback says:

    The Obama administration is an oppressive liberal administration. That’s just the truth.

  96. 96
    LD50 says:

    The Obama administration is an oppressive liberal administration. That’s just the truth.

    Let me guess. His scary jackbooted Black Muslim thugs came and tried to take away your guns last week, right? Poor widdle baby.

  97. 97
    mossback says:

    And believe me, I’m no fan of Bush. But this Obama guy is a socialist fraud.

  98. 98
    mossback says:

    LD50 We can talk when you consider acting like an adult.

  99. 99
    wvpeach says:

    I got to ask where John Cole gets this stuff ?

    Where are the sources?

    Got any video? Any links to these so called friends of this gunman?

    I mean I am about a staunch a fighter against the right wing and hate speech as you’ll come across.

    But lately I see the left guilty of some of the same lies and propganda technics the right uses.

    I would love to splash this info all over the internet……………. really really would.

    Headline……………… crazed man shoots cop’s because of fear he heard in right wing talk radio and TV about Obama taking his guns. Talk Radio held accountable. ……………….. I would so love to do that.

    But I can’t.

    I see no source info for the statements and nothing to prove this is true.

    You cannot win a battle of ethics by stooping to the unethical level of your opponent.

    Once you lose your credibility its real hard to get any back. So I think I will wait for some proof before splashing this all over the net.

  100. 100
    LD50 says:

    LD50 We can talk when you consider acting like an adult.

    I repeat: see comment 94.

  101. 101
    MJ says:

    Saying Glenn Beck’s show causes nut cases to shoot people is about as serious a charge as saying porn causes rape or video games causes violence. You’re pulling cause and effect out of your arse.

  102. 102
    John Cole says:

    @wvpeach: ?

    I don’t think you can blame this on Glenn Beck. I think you blame this on the deranged shooter.

    Having said that, when you have a bunch of people spouting their anarchist nonsense and preaching revolution and “surrounding” people, as well as the many others, you can’t be surprised when a lunatic somewhere acts on that.

    Go here and watch Glenn Beck and Wayne LaPierre go apeshit about Obama’s apparent secret plans to take away guns. Then read what the shooter’s friends said.

    Does that prove that Glenn Beck is to blame? No, and I’m not suggesting he is. There is no way to know if the kid had any idea who Glenn beck even is.

    I am stating that the type of rhetoric that he spews does impact crazy people.

  103. 103
    Jrod says:

    OK then Mossback, please outline the various ways that Obama has oppressed you over the last couple months. Remember, we’re looking for examples that would justify murderous violence against innocent people, so the Ipod he gave the queen won’t cut it.

    Of course, we know that you, personally, don’t espouse or justify violence, but you believe that Obama is responsible for these killings and not, say, the people who egg the killers on or the killers themselves, which implies that you believe these killers are, in fact, justified. Did you mean something else when you placed all the blame for these deaths at Obama’s feet? Please, explain it to us children.

  104. 104
    LD50 says:

    Hey, MJ, you never did answer this:

    Please list all of the murders committed by liberal opponents of George W. Bush.

    I’m sure it was just an oversight. Thanks in advance.

  105. 105
    mossback says:

    To tell you the truth if I had my choice between buying a gun and weight lifting equipment I’d take the weight lifting equipment.

    For those of you who spent time on the street you know there’s some cats you don’t deal with; some places you just don’t go. You know, the kinds of situations where people get killed over stupid shit. Whatever it is, some dude has a fresh whip from dealing and some other dude gets envious and caps his ass. These are bad people. Yet these same types of people feel more emboldened to do what ever the hell they want now that Obama has been elected. That is not the kind of leadership a President should give, it is the wrong message.
    Obama is bad and it’s gonna get worse and you can thank George Bush for getting Obama elected.

  106. 106
    LD50 says:

    OK then Mossback, please outline the various ways that Obama has oppressed you over the last couple months. Remember, we’re looking for examples that would justify murderous violence against innocent people, so the Ipod he gave the queen won’t cut it.

    Let me guess: if he made over $250,000 a year, which he doesn’t, he would pay more taxes.

    And, if jackbooted thugs had come to take away his guns, which they won’t, that would violate his 2nd Amendment rights.

    Yup. Serious oppression there.

  107. 107
    John Cole says:

    Saying Glenn Beck’s show causes nut cases to shoot people is about as serious a charge as saying porn causes rape or video games causes violence. You’re pulling cause and effect out of your arse.

    No one is saying the kid went and did this because of Glenn Beck. What we are saying is that the kind of rhetoric that Beck spews is a contributing factor.

    And no one who researches the stuff says that porn causes rape and that video games cause violence. They will, however, to a person, tell you that there are often relationships between porn and rape and porn and violence and video games and violence. Go read the Zillman and Bryant studies, off the top of my head. Go read the analyses of the Rape Myth Acceptance and the relationship to consumption of pornography.

    It isn’t as cut and dried as you like to pretend.

  108. 108
    Jrod says:

    Obama is now responsible for anyone who gets killed on the street, because he "emboldened" them by doing… uh, er, something, I guess.

    Come clean, I’ve been arguing with DougJ here, haven’t I?

  109. 109
    mossback says:

    jrod and and LD50 may be of limited intellect and sure as hell don’t sound like they were ever in a gun fight so I don’t know if we can relate that much. It must be tough being a keyboard warrior and all. Psst.

  110. 110
    LD50 says:

    For those of you who spent time on the street you know there’s some cats you don’t deal with; some places you just don’t go. You know, the kinds of situations where people get killed over stupid shit. Whatever it is, some dude has a fresh whip from dealing and some other dude gets envious and caps his ass. These are bad people. Yet these same types of people feel more emboldened to do what ever the hell they want now that Obama has been elected. That is not the kind of leadership a President should give, it is the wrong message.

    Wow. That was incoherent. ‘A fresh whip from dealing’??

    Please tell us what this "message" is, and when Obama has expressed it.

    Stuff you imagined doesn’t count.

  111. 111
    Terri says:

    So Obama has "emboldened" street level thugs to shoot each other?

  112. 112
    LD50 says:

    jrod and and LD50 may be of limited intellect and sure as hell don’t sound like they were ever in a gun fight

    Just a hint, the internet toughguy routine isn’t working.

  113. 113
    mossback says:

    Nah Obama ain’t oppressing me, I enjoy the extra eight bucks per week in my paycheck. Pssst.

  114. 114
    mossback says:

    Who’s being a tough guy? Were talkin’.

  115. 115
    LD50 says:

    So Obama has "emboldened" street level thugs to shoot each other?

    Mossback logic:

    a) Obama is black.

    b) Therefore black people are emboldened to start shooting people.

    c) Therefore white people have to start stockpiling guns. If any of them flip out and shoot people, it’s Obama’s fault.

  116. 116
    mossback says:

    You don’t like my point of view that’s ok, you’re entitled to it. Just don’t paint me up as some chaw spittin’ hick out the bush because I happen to hate Obama.

  117. 117
    Paul L. says:

    @joe from Lowell:

    So ourtrageous, you won’t quote it!

    AIR AMERICA’S ASSASSINATION CHIC

    Comparing Bush and his family to the Corleones of “Godfather” fame, Air America host Randi Rhodes reportedly unleashed this zinger during her Monday night broadcast: “Like Fredo, somebody ought to take him out fishing and phuw.

    Rhodes then imitated the sound of a gunshot.

    In “Godfather II,” Fredo Corleone is executed by brother Michael at the end of the film.

  118. 118
    Terri says:

    Ah. Silly me.

  119. 119
    LD50 says:

    You don’t like my point of view that’s ok, you’re entitled to it. Just don’t paint me up as some chaw spittin’ hick out the bush because I happen to hate Obama.

    No, we do that because you don’t make any sense, and can only give retarded answers to questions.

  120. 120
    John Cole says:

    @Paul L.: Randi Rhodes is an asshole. Has that ever been in question?

    And this has to do with….

  121. 121
    Throwin Stones says:

    @wvpeach: Link to AP article quoting Poplawski’s "best friend" and a "longtime friend".

  122. 122
    Jrod says:

    Well Mossback, it’s true I’ve never been in a gun fight. The times I’ve had a gun or two in my face, I did what the gunmen wanted, which so far has been handing over all of my money. Too bad I didn’t shoot it out, then Mossback might respect me.

    That’s alright, though. I don’t want your respect. I want to to outline exactly what Obama has done that’s so oppressive. It must be pretty bad if it’s motivating people to go on killing sprees. Was it the extra 3% tax on the top marginal rate that did it?

  123. 123
  124. 124
    LD50 says:

    The times I’ve had a gun or two in my face, I did what the gunmen wanted, which so far has been handing over all of my money.

    Did he have a fresh whip from dealing?

  125. 125

    Yo yo yo!

    Whatever it is, some dude has a fresh whip from dealing and some other dude gets envious and caps his ass. These are bad people. Yet these same types of people feel more emboldened to do what ever the hell they want now that Obama has been elected

    Yo yo, homiez, just what kind of people do you think he’s talking – or, as they say, "rapping" – about in this passage?

  126. 126

    […] Juice”,  and ‘writer’ John Cole offers this subtle analysis, calling it Glenn Beck’s America. Also piling on Glenn Beck as well as the NRA is John Amato. This is the change we can believe in! […]

  127. 127
    mutt says:

    Being both a tireless foe of murderous wingnuts and a "leftist", a defender of people resisting US attacks AND a life long shooter/reloader/gun owner, I know from long experience "progressives", or "liberals" would, if they possibly could, sieze every firearm in civilian hands- for our own good, of course.
    Lets see. Mexico. We have a brutally misruled nation of impovershed peasants. We have a vast, highly skilled , insanely wealthy syndicates of international drug smugglers. There is an unblieveably huge surplus of firearms of all types in the world market.
    Rather than buy ACTUAL assault rifles- capable of full auto fire- "machine guns"- on the world black market for $85-125 EACH, by the shipping container load, without much paperwork, these smugglers are going to buy non assault, semi auto, non mil-spec rifles 1, 2, or 3 at a time, for 400-500 bucks each, covered in paper, then get them across the border into Mexico.
    As logic goes, thats right up there with proggies saying in one breath the USG is the most murderous, rapacious, ruthless force on the planet, THEREFORE we must disarm the working class. (Note: wealthy liberals, like, say, DiFi will of course keep theirs)
    Theres something like 225K semi auto rifles- just the AK clones- in civil hands in the US.
    The number of semi auto rifles total used in "gun crime" represent something like .006 of 1%, the total numbers vs those actually used in crime is such a minute % as to be invisible.
    That invisible percentage becomes a prog excuse to criminalze 99.99999999999% of civil owners, and, of course, since the actual murder weapon of choice for professionals is small & medium caliber revolvers, they are next. Who "needs" a pump shotgun? Who needs a rifle that can hit a pack of Luckies at 400 yards? Think of the chilllll-drennnnn…..
    Ive heard all of it in my decades tactically allied with whats passes for a Left. There is a lot of sound reasons for citizens to be concerned with firearms being incrementally criminalized by the State. Progressive dishonesty on th subject is one such reason. History is another.
    Progs would do well to learn to shoot, learn safe & proper firearms use, & join the local gun club.
    You’d be amazed at the conversations you can have.
    Gun owners have been abandoned to the wingnut right, by default. like biker vets, my own peeps.
    Think Ill go load some ammo……

  128. 128
    Dave_Violence says:

    The only person to blame for these shootings is the shooter. the threat of an "Obama" gun grab is very real, as gun confiscation is generally part of the Democratic party platform – but it’s not an excuse to shoot cops from your window. This "man" is a criminal and he’s going to enjoy having the system work its magic on him.

    Regarding the "American Rifleman" magazine, someone mischaracterized above… it has a monthly section called "the Armed Citizen" that posts stories of Americans definding themselves with sometimes deadly force, oftentimes against burglers. These stories are rarely reported in the mainstream newspapers, for reasons I know not… The NRA would never, ever, condone criminal behavior such as shooting cops (quite the opposite; many NRA members are cops). The NRA does, however, lobby for the civil rights of all Americans: the right to keep and bear arms.

    Re: any comments along the lines of "citizen militia not being able to defend against armies" or whatever. You’ve not heard of "asymetrical warfare" forgotten about guerilla warfare, kill one scare 10,000, insurgencies, etc. It is precisely the loosely-organized (if at all organized) armed citizens that fight off armies and prolong conflicts for years and years and years.

    Things to ponder: Where did the guy get the AK-47? I thought they were all in Mexico. Also, Glenn Beck, et al, have, apparently, thousands, iff not millions of listeners; many of whom are likely well-armed. How come they’re not doing this kind of thing? Were Dylan and Eric Limbaugh fans?

    Bottom line: Criminals are caught and prosecuted after they’re caught, not before. If guns are banned, the US ceases to be the land of the free, but the land of something else, probably not pleasant, unless you, yourself, are a policeman. No one condones murderers.

  129. 129
    LD50 says:

    the threat of an "Obama" gun grab is very real, as gun confiscation is generally part of the Democratic party platform

    Do you have any evidence for this that isn’t, you know, made up?

  130. 130

    the threat of an "Obama" gun grab is very real

    It’s on the agenda between "Fairness Doctrine" and "Sharia Law."

  131. 131
    Dave_Violence says:

    Oh, come on, it’s not like it’s a hidden issue, it’s quite the opposite and you know it. Anyway, here’s some "evidence," for you two idiots.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/dom.....ontrol.htm

    Biden: http://www.ontheissues.org/dom.....ontrol.htm

    Feinstein: http://www.ontheissues.org/dom.....ontrol.htm

    Platform: http://www.ontheissues.org/Cel.....ontrol.htm

    This, recently, is a good sign that the democrats may be pro-2nd Amendment, http://thehill.com/leading-the.....03-26.html.

  132. 132
    Pug says:

    Do you have any evidence for this that isn’t, you know, made up?

    They don’t need no steenking evidence.

    Glenn Beck, et al, have, apparently, thousands, iff not millions of listeners

    Yes, in fact they do. However, in the case of Fox News, they are mostly over seventy years old.

  133. 133
    JK says:

    Glenn Beck is a raving lunatic and a world class rabble rousing demagogue. He should be placed in a straitjacket and given electroshock therapy.

    If an assassination attempt is made against Obama, you can be certain that the would be assassin will be a Glenn Beck fan.

    Beck’s audience is made up of the most deranged, delusional, and unstable people

  134. 134

    For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind ..*

    Don’t mean to get biblical, but there IS a connection between spewing hate and violence and its physical appearance — a connection that we’ve accepted and acknowledged for, oh , well, the Book of Hosea was written between 755 and 725 B.C. approx.

    You do the math.

    Maybe not actionable hate-speech, and probably shouldn’t be (although, as Learned Hand wrote, Freedom of speech doesn’t include the right to yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater) prosecuted as active incitement.

    But, in its extreme form CAN and SHOULD be.

    The moral responsibility is well-established, ancient and undeniable — unless you hatey snarkers and wingnut vilifiers would like to argue with your "Good Book."

    (As you attack anything that doesn’t agree with your knee-jerk opinions.)

    I’m looking forward to watching that. Go for it.

    (asterisk) Hosea 8:7

    and Proverbs 22:8 He who sows iniquity will reap vanity, And the rod of his fury will perish.

  135. 135
    mrbill says:

    So then I guess the four cops that were murdered in Oakland we should call it what, Jesse Jackson’s America? Barack Obama’s America? Ron Dellums’ America?

  136. 136
    lethargytartare says:

    @Dave_Violence:

    Oh, come on, it’s not like it’s a hidden issue, it’s quite the opposite and you know it. Anyway, here’s some "evidence," for you two idiots.

    1st line from the Platform Link:

    "We will protect Americans Second Amendment right to own firearms"

    You might want to read these links before you copy/paste them from whatever website issues you your talking points, Dave.

  137. 137
    Suzanne says:

    Yeah, well, the kind of thing Obama hypnotized people with caused THEM to vote for the incompetent dufus, so there you go.

  138. 138
    MJ says:

    Glenn Beck is a raving lunatic and a world class rabble rousing demagogue. He should be placed in a straitjacket and given electroshock therapy.

    If an assassination attempt is made against Obama, you can be certain that the would be assassin will be a Glenn Beck fan.

    Beck’s audience is made up of the most deranged, delusional, and unstable people

    I think you have a snoot full of derangement your self.

    Glenn Beck causes nut cases to kill people just like porn leads to rape and video games leads to violence.

    The President is in Europe, the North Korean launched a missile, the CBO saying that the bail outs will cost $167 billion more than originally anticipated and this blog has 3 active threads with lame attacks on a Fox News host who isn’t even on during Prime Time. Come on John, you can do better then this.

  139. 139
    wasabi gasp says:

    @Suzanne: Are you equating voting with homicide?

    And if, as you say, Obama can hypnotize folks, wouldn’t that be a super duper quality in a president? Especially at, say, a global summit or at the U.N.? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think any other world leaders can do that yet. I mean, hey, the Indian guy can levitate a little bit, but really, how useful is that? Levitation might get you some lunch money in Washington Square Park, but on the world stage it’s a wee bit ostentatious.

  140. 140
    Chup says:

    I must respectfully disagree with joe from lowell who says, "Nope. In fact, liberals go out of their way to explain why their political opponents aren’t bad people, just mistaken."

    I’m a 48-year-old liberal native West Texan and most GOOPers here are in fact, bad people. Really bad people — people you wouldn’t want to associate with in any way.

    But I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let these fuckers run me out of my state.

  141. 141
    TenguPhule says:

    These stories are rarely reported in the mainstream newspapers, for reasons I know not…

    Let me guess, you think Letters to Penthouse all come from real people too.

  142. 142
    terry chay says:

    @TenguPhule I once read that they did. :-)

    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29699
    http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2008/7/28copper.html
    http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ1104-PENTHOUSE

    Finally I must complain about some of the commenters. They started off great with the parts about how Obama is to blame for the murder of three police officers and such, but then they really devolved. You really need to give us DougJ back so the newer commenters can see it done right.

  143. 143
    mutt says:

    I dont know Dave V’s other positions, but he is right here. The Dims FINALLY figured out that equating the ownership of firearms with inherent criminality, or sexual dysfunction, or extreme paranoia actually- go figure! pissed off vast numbers of sane citizens who owned firearms. And voted.
    And since a lot of the hoplophobes arguments to criminalize firearms owners has the same respect for truth as, say, Dick Cheney , and uses the same tailored data as, say, the Bush WH’s "evidence" of Iraqs WMD…..well, believe it or not, credibility is lost.

    I quit the NRA when it gave political cover to noted thug & scumbag Ollie North, but the fact of the matter is that the American Rifleman is hardly a source of fantasy. Every day, common citizens defend themselves. Progs have no problem deciding for others if they can defend themselves, I do. ("Am not now, nor ever have been, a "progressive")
    in fact, back when I lived in madison, Wi, & was a public figure against the first Gulf War, Madison progs decided to criminalize every citizen in the town limits who owned a sidearm. the week before the city council vote- it went down in flames- a 92 lb woman ended an attempted gang rape led by her restraining ordered hubby, who kicked in her door, with a pistol.
    These things do very much happen.
    Every day. The Am Ri publishes vetted accounts monthly.
    deal with it.

  144. 144
    fasteddie says:

    I work in a field dominated by hard core republicans/conservatives and some of the things they say are really alarming. People who never owned guns b4 are buying guns at alarming rates thanks to all becks and hannity talk radio. They are talking about a revolution coming and they just can’t wait to shoot some "libs." I for one am advising every progressive thinking american to go out and lots of guns and ammo too, because you don’t want to be caught in a gun fight without a gun. And it sure seems like the other side is well armed, crazy, and hateful enough to do some rwandan type genocide. In rwanda, one of the large proganda machines which incited most of the murdering of innocents was….crazy conservatives on talk radio. We need to bear our own arms people. Don’t count on your local police departments to save you from militias of gun toting wing nuts looking for defenseless liberals.
    I don’t mean to include all conservatives and republicans in this crazy, hateful, ignorant category. There are a lot of them that aren’t like this. But we must beware of the ones who are…the ones who listen to beck and limbaugh, who can somehow justify what people like tim mcveigh did. the ones who are buying guns at alarming rates. They keep on talking about a "revolution" coming. So what are you gonna do when this revolution comes? Stay and fight, or run and hide.

  145. 145

    […] of my favorite comments is by a guy who calls himself Mossback. This stuff can’t write itself. OK, I understand the lot of you who disike Obama for any […]

  146. 146
    kILL 'EM ALL FOR THEIR OWN GOOD says:

    Sure, crazy people do crazy things. But that doesn’t make it responsible to encourage them, which is what a lot of really foolish people are doing right now for purely political reasons.

    Yes John, kinda like when you enthusiastically supported Bush and Cheney invading Iraq. Have you no shame Mr. Cole? have you no fucking shame at all?

  147. 147
    scarshapedstar says:

    Yes John, kinda like when you enthusiastically supported Bush and Cheney invading Iraq. Have you no shame Mr. Cole? have you no fucking shame at all?

    I’m sure Mr. Cole is aware that he was once crazy, as was I (at least I have the excuse of being a naive and pampered high school conservative dickwad when the war began) but he was blessed with a moonbat commentariat that eventually made the scales fall from his eyes. He’s a perfect example of how calling crazy people crazy can bring about positive change.

    So drop it.

  148. 148
    sharky says:

    a 92 lb woman ended an attempted gang rape led by her restraining ordered hubby, who kicked in her door, with a pistol.

    Oh, good, maybe in the spirit of the times she was able to avoid the death penalty for murder.

    Even nowadays, women usually can’t get away with that extreme of self-defense in court, restraining order or no.

  149. 149
    kay says:

    Is it too much to ask for these NRA-types to start using their heads?

    Eric Holder is a prosecutor. He advocates reasonable restrictions on gun ownership.

    This is not an extreme position among prosecutors, and only within the fevered ranks of the NRA is it considered conspiratorial.

    Most police agencies advocate restrictions on assault weapons, for a good and self-interested reason: they don’t want to answer a domestic call and be met at the door with a lunatic wielding an AK-47.

    Your absolute right to purchase and use an assault weapon comes with a hefty price.

    I would think that all the gun rights absolutists strutting their stuff here on the internet would at least give a nod to that price, or admit there IS a price. There’s collateral damage. To ignore that is really obnoxious.

  150. 150
    wewongetoverit says:

    Remember the "B Girl"? Remember how Poutraged the right was when they thought a precious white girl had been attacked by an angry black Obama supporter?

    Imagine if this guy had killed three police officers and claimed that he was afraid Bush was coming for his guns?

    Oh, the media would have been outraged to have poor Bushie maligned like that. And just think if it had been MSNBC selling crazies on a lie about Bush. Gitmo wouldn’t have been good enough.

    But when it’s Fox Spews, it’s all good. /s

    As an aside, I wanted to add that the FBI finds right wing extremists have replaced left wing radicals as the domestic terrorist group most likely to destroy — since the 90’s, in fact.

    The Freeps love to shove The Weathermen, et al in the left’s face but have no answer to why the FBI use being a Libertarian, anti-abortion, etc to profile possible domestic terrorists. I like to remind the far right of this often, as they seem to believe that they own the Flag, Patriotism, and "moderation" ("I’m a moderate" is a phrase I hear a lot from the most far right extremists) when in fact, they stand for something dangerous and ominous. It’s all so Ministry of Truth it makes my head spin.

  151. 151

    […] surprisingly, several bloggers on the left jumped on this as evidence that so-called “right wing propaganda” was […]

  152. 152

    […] the far-right talking points and only a small handful have been driven to violence. As John Cole noted this morning, "Sure, crazy people do crazy things. But that doesn’t make it responsible to […]

  153. 153

    […] (Daily Kos) Oliver Willis Andrew Sullivan John Cole Taylor Marsh Firedoglake digby Dave […]

  154. 154
    JudyB says:

    Glenn Beck doesn’t incite as you stated with "…And, of course, when you point out that certain individuals with all their talk about “revolution” and “armed insurrection” are inciting this kind of behavior in unstable people"

    If you cared to look a little further into what he actually is saying and read the transcripts of his show, you’d find that he is constantly discouraging such radical behavior! He urges peaceful demonstrations to make the "silent majority" of patriotic Americans not so silent.

  155. 155
    Not Kidding says:

    Murders by Left-Wing-Liberals.

    Chairman Mao Zedong: between 2 million and 5 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong)

    Lenin: 6 to 8 million people died under Lenin from war, famine etc..

    Stalin: shall I go on?

    I mean really people, you folks are so consumed by hate that you appear unreachable and simply unreasonable.

  156. 156
    Nancy says:

    Of course Glen Beck encourages this behavior when he encourages everyone to read books like "The 5000 Year Leap" and "The Real George Washington"…..

    Crazies are found in every nook and cranny of political thought….it is unavoidable because they aren’t required to have a scarlet letter on their backs.

    Glen Beck is encouraging everyone to do the quintessential American thing – voice our opinions be they studious or knee jerk…. he is actually fighting for your opinions that you are freely giving -even though they may be wrong!

  157. 157
    Chris says:

    When did we as a nation become incapable of policing ourselves? Gun control has been proven time and again to be ineffective. Chicago, NY, LA all in heavily regulated states have the highest gun related incedents. I live in Phoenix and when I moved here from the east coast, I was horrified to see people with guns. I felt like hey someone can shoot me.

    Then I realized something. These people were actually detering crime and they might even act to protect me from a criminal. In fact the law here protects anyone who does so to save another’s life. Suddenly I felt safe around people with guns. I realized criminals were no longer able to just shoot fish in a barrel when 40% of the fish had concealed weapons on them.

    Phoenix does have some problems and AZ is ranked 16th in the country for violent crime. Most of the shootings are done by illegal mexicans. I say this because it is true. I have a deep respect for Mexican people but the criminals that walk across our border are the most dangerous part about living here. I once saw one shoot a cop in the face on the street in broad daylight. They know they can just cross the border and get away. In fact the majority of murdered police officers in phoenix are shot by illegals.

    Anyway, I realized as an American, I had an obligation to buy a gun and protect my friends, my family, and my community. I bought a glock 40 subcompact, got my ccw permit and now I carry it wherever I go. I don’t even know its there but try to kill someone or me and find out what happens. The cop who trained me expained it best. You’ve got sheep and wolves out there. Lawful citizens who carry guns are sheep dogs. When did we turn into a nation of people that stop believing in our own judgement?

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] (Daily Kos) Oliver Willis Andrew Sullivan John Cole Taylor Marsh Firedoglake digby Dave […]

  2. […] the far-right talking points and only a small handful have been driven to violence. As John Cole noted this morning, "Sure, crazy people do crazy things. But that doesn’t make it responsible to […]

  3. […] surprisingly, several bloggers on the left jumped on this as evidence that so-called “right wing propaganda” was […]

  4. […] of my favorite comments is by a guy who calls himself Mossback. This stuff can’t write itself. OK, I understand the lot of you who disike Obama for any […]

  5. […] Juice”,  and ‘writer’ John Cole offers this subtle analysis, calling it Glenn Beck’s America. Also piling on Glenn Beck as well as the NRA is John Amato. This is the change we can believe in! […]

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