Another Thought

From the comments to another post:

You know, I’ve been on this blog almost all day and I’ve about had it. Can we just get the pitchforks out and get this over with?

You know, putting aside the stupidity of the Republicans, I would really like it if the Democrats would make the god damned case for this bill. There is another report up from the CBO (allegedly) that this will be more damaging in the long haul than doing nothing.

It would be nice if the Democrats would sell this bill and explain why it is good, rather than Obama just coming out and warning about catastrophe every now and then. I dealt with eight years of fear-mongering about terrorism, I don’t need it regarding the economy. I recognize our economy is a disaster, and I will support the bill heartily if you give me a reason and make your case. They simply haven’t done that, and part of my ambivalence is I am tired of doing stupid things just to be “doing something.”

Explain why this is a good bill. I double dog dare you. And if you can’t or won’t, explain why I shouldn’t be siding with the GOP in opposition, despite how crazy they are.






270 replies
  1. 1
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    that this will be damaging in the long haul than doing nothing

    Did you mean less damaging?

  2. 2
    Laura W says:

    Your Prez is trying to convince you right now.

  3. 3
    Laura W says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Tell him he’s missing a word or two here:
    "damaging in the long haul than doing nothing."
    I don’t want to die in a fire.
    Oops. I see you did. Phew.

  4. 4
    rob says:

    Why sell it- if the Rethugs are against it, the bill must be a good- right?

  5. 5
    John Cole says:

    @Laura W: No. He is making the case that something needs to be done. I agree.

    He is not, however, making the case that this bill is what needs to be done.

  6. 6
    sgwhiteinfla says:

    John Cole

    You should have watched CSPAN today. All day Durbin, Schumer and Boxer were kicking ass on the Senate floor. I wish they could have done it on Harball or on Larry King but still it was nice to see them making the case.

    Also the CBO clearly says that if we don’t do anything it will be disasterous. Please don’t pay attention to anyone who in anyway indentifies as a conservative because on the floor of the Senate today Rethug Senator Thune out and out lied and said that less than half of the bill would spend out in two years when clearly the latest CBO says 78% would spend out by next Sept.

    Also on CSPAN right now President Obama is kicking ass once again

  7. 7
    Phaedrus says:

    I’m with you on this. The usefulness of the bill has been degraded to appease Repubs who have done nothing but try to submarine it. What has become glaringly obvious is that the Dems don’t give a crap slightly less than the Republicans don’t give a crap.
    We’re faced with Repubs who fight like hell for all the wrong reasons, and Dems who are consumate wimps.

  8. 8
    Laura W says:

    @John Cole: Well, I’m not sure he’s quite done speaking yet, John.

  9. 9
    mr. bispo says:

    i’ve been trying to find the full clip, but blanche lincoln was great earlier on 1600.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIg4d7mrT7g

  10. 10
    Jay Severin Has A Small Pens says:

    Obama should just pledge to spend $1Trillion hiring poor people to spy on and torture terrorists, non-Christians, and liberals.

    It would create massive amounts of jobs, delight all Republicans, and stimulate the economy.

    Problem solved.

  11. 11
    Stuck says:

    It would be nice if the Democrats would sell this bill and explain why it is good, rather than Obama just coming out and warning about catastrophe every now and then.

    To begin with, they shouldn’t have called it just a stimulus bill, because it’s much more than that. Something like Stimulus and Economic Reconstruction Bill would be more accurate. Or even Stimulus and Cleaning Up GOP Mess Bill would be better than what it’s called. Now they are just scared to have to explain the long term stimulus stuff as being long term, when people want results now. You can’t boil it down to a soundbite like the wingnuts can with small, short term, and limited, or something like that. They are also understandably skittish about explaining why a mini golf course in Backwater, KY. (used as metaphor) is really stimulating, though it actually is.

    They will likely get away with it this time, but are going to have to be more forthright in the future and defend what they’re doing in terms of what they are actually doing. My take, but realize, I may be in left field.

  12. 12

    I get the sense that we are witnessing a power struggle between the Legislature and the Executive, and the Legislature is winning.

    This bill was authored by the Legislature and is flawed. The Executive jumped on board for whatever reason, and the Legislature has been silent. Thus putting the Executive in a terrible position, increasing the power of the Legislature.

    I find it hard to believe that Reid and Pelosi are smart enough to have engineered this, but here it is, and they seem to be running with it.

    The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ripping the bill up, and immediately begin electrifying the national rail systems. This would immediately put hundreds of thousands of people to work, doing something that is actually worthwhile.

  13. 13
    Dave says:

    John, the CBO came out today with a report that said the Senate bill would spend out 78% of its monies in the first two years. I didn’t read anything that said doing nothing would be a better idea.

  14. 14

    And if you can’t or won’t, explain why I shouldn’t be siding with the GOP in opposition, despite how crazy they are.

    The thought of waking up next to Joe the Plumber puts most people off.

  15. 15
    Unabogie says:

    John –

    Robert Reich does a nice job explaining why we need the bill:

    Tomorrow’s job report is likely to be awful. January’s job losses could easily top half a million. We’re deep into the most vicious of economic cycles: Consumers are slashing their spending because they’re perilously in debt and worried about keeping their jobs. But as a result, businesses are facing shrinking sales of goods and services, so they’re slashing payrolls, which of course makes consumers even more anxious and further reduces their spending power. Meanwhile, businesses are cutting way back on new investments in equipment, which hurts upstream suppliers, who are now slashing their payrolls. And so it goes, downward. The gap between what the economy could produce if it were running near full capacity and what it’s now producing continues to widen. The shortfall is projected to be over a trillion dollars this year. [..] Regardless of your ideological stripe, you’ve got to see that when consumers and businesses stop spending and investing, there’s only entity left to step into the breach. It’s government. Major increases in government spending are necessary, and the spending must be on a very large scale.

    That’s pretty much it. Government spending is the only way to expand the economy or prevent it from contracting as much as it might if you do nothing.

    Can’t lower interest rates. No one is investing. Can’t boost exports.

    We have to spend on make-work projects.

  16. 16
    sgwhiteinfla says:

    Seriously if you aren’t watching CSPAN right now you are missing out!!!

  17. 17
    headpan says:

    You know what? According to my own standards, it is FAR from a good bill. Know what else? I am a powerless little progressive plebe. NO one is listening to progressives right now, at the very time when, given their track record (helping Dems win elections and stuff) they should be.

    That said, I’ll take it as opposed to nothing and for fuck’s safe, I don’t want no fucking tax cutz, gimme some afforable health insurance, I’LL PAY SOMETHING, I’LL PAY $400 A fucking month!!! To me, these days, that is affordable! Gimme it!!

    (swigs more wine)

  18. 18
  19. 19
  20. 20
    Keith says:

    Explain why this is a good bill. I double dog dare you.

    Shut up, that’s why?

  21. 21
    evie says:

    Obama sold the hell out of it tonight. Must viewing.

    And finally.

  22. 22
    Samuel says:

    This is getting ridiculous.

    All I’ve heard is how the Republicans screwed things up over the last 8 years, and during the campaign the Democrats and Obama were screaming about how BAD they screwed things up, and how THEY can do better.

    Well, the Democrats have the White House and sizable majorities in BOTH chambers of congress—and all the American people see is Democrats doing what they’ve been doing for 20 years–bitch and whine about how Republicans are obstructionists and how they’re not playing fair.

    When the Republicans are playing nice, the Democrats bitch that their ideas suck. When the Republicans dont play at all, the Democrats bitch that they’re not playing ("for bipartisans sake")

    No wonder why the polls show the American people dont approve of this bill. But oh wait, the polls dont count now because the lead whiner, Harry Reid says that polls should be outlawed….what a moron. If the polls showed 80% support for the "stimulus" you all would be whining "SEE? THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT THIS STIMULUS!!! SEE?"

    And oh yeah, Obama writes an op-ed in the WaPo today, which was basically a regurgitation of campaign talking points, and now as I type he’s giving another campaign speech, because that’s all he’s really good at is campaigning.

    The Democrats have all the power in DC now, and they’re STILL bitching. If you think all the crap that’s in this bill is what the country needs, then run with it. For fuck’s sake, grow a pair and stop whining

  23. 23
    rock says:

    Here’s why government spending now is a good idea:

    a) No one else will purchase goods or services in this economy; everyone (including businesses) are cutting expenses.

    b) With competent oversight and bidding structure, the government can buy things cheaply right since labor and materials will cost less than the do in boom times.

    c) Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but even "borrowing money" in the form of issuing T-Bills right now is cheap for the government. T-Bills are in demand…

    d) There are numerous things in the bill that have benefits beyond putting people to work (weatherization is one). There is undoubtably less effective spending as well, but politics is the art of compromise, baby and bathwater, etc.

    This kind of bill is easy to attack and hard to defend because it includes so many items. It’s easy to select a few controversial or bad ones and claim it all sucks. It would be easier to defend the National Infrastructure Bill that will modernize rail since it’s One Idea that is expressible in a 15 second sound bite. It’s even easier to defend tax cuts because that’s a 3 second sound bite and There’s Never Pork in Tax Cuts!

    Bottom-line: now is great time for the government to deficit spend…it can borrow at great rates, buy bargains, and do good stuff.

    You want to attack an Obama program? Go after TARP II, if it happens, in which we buy worthless assets to keep bad banks afloat. That will/would be a boondoggle.

  24. 24
    Dave says:

    The bottom line is that the government has to spend this money to keep the US from falling into a deflationary spiral. Hell, it’d be better to spend money on digging and filling holes than doing nothing. The fact it will fix roads, bridges, the energy grid and a hundred other things is just an added bonus.

  25. 25
    Stuck says:

    Explain why this is a good bill. I double dog dare you

    I stand corrected.. Here is the Bills title in the Senate

    The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009

    Why don’t they call it that?

    Here is a synopsis of the Bill.

    To me, most of it is an ideological shift that is seismic for areas like energy, health and other progressive principles. And it puts big bucks behind that shift. It’s why wingnuts hate it so much imo. And I see nothing wrong with helping out states with 300 bil, after being starved for federal revenue the past eight years. There is some junk in it, but the dollar amount is very small, but makes good talking points for wingers.

    Obama rocked in his House retreat speech tonight.

  26. 26
    The Populist says:

    John – Three words: 1 TRILLION DOLLARS. That tax and spend liberal Bill Clinton left us with a surplus. Bush and his GOP house/Senate ran us into major debts.

    Another example is the many quotes from the GOP where they admit something has to be done. Why don’t I ask the GOP why they have nothing but tax cuts as solutions to the problem?

    The market FAILED us. Therefore conventional thinking tells us that if we don’t find different ways to fix this, we will lose…big time.

    Some of the extraneous expenditures on this bill is necessary unfortunately because Bush cut or dismantled funding (science, family planning, education).

    So I ask why are you or any reasonable person being forced into a trap by the GOP to ask why? Here are my questions for them:

    Why are we in this mess to begin with?
    Why didn’t Bush listen to more than his cronies?
    Why did Bush lie about how much it would cost to conquer Iraq?
    Why haven’t the tax cuts provided relief that was promised?
    Why did fucks like Madoff get away with ripping people off?

  27. 27
    torrentprime says:

    Also, who is counting the votes? Why am I reading *Malkin* for the play-by-play? Collins is voting for the bill, Voinovich isn’t, etc. What blue blog is covering this stuff right now?

  28. 28
    PeakVT says:

    It would be nice if the Democrats would sell this bill and explain why it is good, rather than Obama just coming out and warning about catastrophe every now and then.

    Maybe the Dems have internalized the jist of Kenyesian thought (act counter-cyclically) so thoroughly they don’t understand that the population at large has no clue that Keynes ever existed. "Stimulus" has become an internal code word for the whole deficit spending concept, whereas people outside the Beltway see the word as an opportunity to practice their Beavis and Butthead imitations.

    And the Keynesian prescription does run counter to the basic instinct to hunker down when times are tough, so selling it is more difficult than whatever Reps are talking about – which would be tax cuts because that’s all the Reps ever talk about when it comes to the economy. Borrowing is also easier to sell when the federal government isn’t already up to it ears in debt – something that most people are quite aware of.

    Just a theory. Occam’s Razor says the non-sell is just plain old incompetence.

  29. 29
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    John, imagine you and me driving in a car, me at the wheel and you tied up in the trunk. Every now and then I’d yell real loud that there was something up ahead in the road and ask you what you think we should do. You’d yell, muffled from the trunk, mfreffummf and then I’d yell back what? and you’d yell even louder, cut taxes. And I’d smile and keep driving because I’m in the driver’s seat and yer powerless in the trunk so it doesn’t fucking matter what you say.

    That’s sorta my take on things.

  30. 30
    John O says:

    The Dems always make the mistake of assuming the reasons are self-evident to everyone else. They look at the Republicans and think, "Why would anyone even listen to these people?"

    It’s sort of understandable, but also why the Dems suck so bad at politics.

    Like many of us, they are continually startled by the amount of moron populating this country largely because of Villagers telling us what to think for profit.

    The stimulus bill should be passed because things are going to suck for normal people, hard, no matter what over the next year or four, and we should have (and generally want, I think) some shiny new country to play with when we finally come out of it. Supertrains to get on. Functioning public education. Health care in our dreams. Stuff like that to be proud of. A new paradigm.

    Not sayin’ the stimulus will do it at value per dollar, but you can’t even find many conservative economists who wouldn’t admit we’re down to our last bullet. All we’re quibbling about is how large the caliber.

  31. 31
    poopsybythebay says:

    Obama knocked it out of the park tonight on CNN. If he did this every night or at least had done this in the beginning the debate would be OVER! Awesome job. Probably one of the best speeches I’ve ever seen him give.

  32. 32
    Ed Marshall says:

    Whoever did this has made an assumption that this is just a business cycle and that we are going to come out of it when the cycle ends. There is an assumption here that if you just let everything work itself out everything is going to be fine in a couple years.

    If you believe that, you probably should oppose the stimulus bill. I don’t believe that at all. There is a "wait and see" sort of thing I guess you could do. It would be a really, really, painful experiment for a large part of the population if your control group doesn’t recover, but you could do that and then try and kickstart the thing with a lump of federal spending but by then everyone may not be lending the Treasury free money in scary low-interest T-bills because they have decided we are a basket case.

  33. 33
    Trinity says:

    @The Populist: Damn well stated!

  34. 34
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    OT, add Terry McAuliffe Robocalls to the Things That Suck About Virgnia list.

  35. 35
    The Populist says:

    Oh and for those on the right agreeing with Lindsay Graham, pot meet kettle.

    So scaring people isn’t stimulus so how does scaring us for 8 years make us safer? How did scaring us about Iraq work out? What about scaring us for the first 750 billion in TARP funds? If we didn’t do it…what would have happened?

  36. 36
    thesmos says:

    I have no doubt doing nothing is a valid and possibly better approach in the long run, as the CBO report referenced in the Washington Times article predicts. However, the report also states that it will improve GDP in the short term. The (perhaps over-used of late) quote from Harry Hopkins, head of the Works Progress Administration during the FDR days: “People don’t eat in the long run. They eat every day.” puts the "long term" approach in the proper perspective I believe.

    The stimulus, which will add up to 4% to GDP for the short term, when jobs are going down the drain at a near-record pace, at the cost of 0.1% to 0.3% of GDP ten years down the road looks like the humane choice to me.

  37. 37
    The Populist says:

    If this is a business cycle and the GOP believe this nonsense, I give up. Any barely educated High School dropout can see something is different about this mess.

  38. 38
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Where’s my comment edit, John?

    mfreffummf

  39. 39
    John O says:

    Sometimes I wonder how many times Lindsay Graham got punched in the face as a kid.

  40. 40
    Jon H says:

    The only things the CBO released today were comparisons of the impact of the Senate bill to the impact of the House bill.

    So when the CBO talks about "no action" they mean "no change to the House bill", not "doing nothing at all".

  41. 41
    The Populist says:

    Oh yes, Lindsay – your buddy Cheney told America that electing John Kerry in a time of war was dangerous.

    Iran supposedly can attack us at any time. That’s not scaring us? Oh yes, if we had just kept the screws on Saddam and left him in power, Iran would NOT be so out of control.

  42. 42
  43. 43
    Stuck says:

    Anyways, I don’t know why we’re fussing over the economy and stimulus nonsense.

    We’re all gonna die soon no matter, according Lord Darth Cheney

  44. 44
    Jon H says:

    BTW, the CBO’s stuff is posted to its blog here.

    And, honestly, when we’re talking about a negative 5% GDP growth rate *now*, I don’t particularly care about a 0.1% relative decrease in GDP ten years out.

  45. 45
    Rommie says:

    More damaging in the long haul is, in the CBO’s opinion, because the debt load from the government spending will private investment more than if everyone in DC sits on their hands.

    That’s fine and dandy, and it might even be correct. But it strikes me as pointing out that the boat will have reduced performance in the future if you throw stuff overboard to keep it from sinking.

    Letting the mistakes of the 2000’s run their course until the modern-day equivalent of "the trains stop running" won’t get Obama anywhere but the Jimmy Carter Memorial Rocking Chair, and he wasn’t elected to ignore the problems, but to solve them. That’s why it’s a good bill, warts and the Becks screaming "COMMIES" aside – the Big O was elected to DO SOMETHING, and if/when he does, people will climb off the mental ledge and start thinking about moving forward.

  46. 46
    Josh Hueco says:

    I say we purchase a bull tester for every closet case Dixie-con currently or formerly in the government (Lindsay, Larry, Vittles and Trent, I’m looking at you). That will provide plenty of economic stimulus in the animal husbandry implement industry as well as loads of laffs for the rest of us.

  47. 47
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Obama, a short time ago on Rachel, speaking to Dems in Virginia:

    They are calling it a big spending bill. Well, that’s the whole point. Seriously. (laughs). What do they think a stimulus is?

    The Dems were laughing. Obama is fine.

    Now, back to your regularly scheduled nervous breakdown.

    ( Obama speech paraphrased slightly, I don’t have a transcript)

  48. 48
    Jon H says:

    I’m not sure if the crowding-out effects will be as strong as they predict, anyway. Treasury interest rates are so low right now that they are safe but give no return. It’s not like the high-interest rate situation of the early 80s.

  49. 49
    Montysano says:

    @Samuel:

    All I’ve heard is how the Republicans screwed things up over the last 8 years, and during the campaign the Democrats and Obama were screaming about how BAD they screwed things up, and how THEY can do better…. Well, the Democrats have the White House and sizable majorities in BOTH chambers of congress

    First of all, they did screw it up. They just did. Dems helped, but the GOP has had Congress for 14 of the last 16 years, and the White House for the last 8. They own it, or at least they should.

    "The Democrats have all the power in DC now". I’ve read a lot of dumb shit the last couple of days, but that is up there with the best. 16 days, my man. They’ve had all the power for 16 days. Piss off.

    Here’s the really bad part: they’ve driven us into a state of fucked-up-ness heretofore unknown in human history. No one knows if this stimulus will work, or if anything will work. Krugman, Reich, and others have said as much. That’s where we’re really at.

  50. 50
    jcricket says:

    The Dems always make the mistake of assuming the reasons are self-evident to everyone else. They look at the Republicans and think, "Why would anyone even listen to these people?"

    John O is exactly right. Democrats do a terrible job of marketing their ideas, and people love the Republican "free lunch" theories. Republicans appeal to everyone’s baser instincts, and have 30 years experience destroying the government, so should we be surprised they’re continuing now?

    It’s all they have left, and the only way the GOP can hope to retake control in our lifetime is if the country literally fails. Of course after they take control they’d make it worse (see Hoover, Herbert), but that’s not what matters.

  51. 51
    sglover says:

    I don’t doubt that enormous Federal outlays are necessary, now. But whether THIS PLAN is the way to do it is a whole other thing. Among other things, it suggests that the "change" regime is every bit the financial industry’s bitch as the gang of criminals just departed.

    If he **must** dump oceans of money somewhere, why the hell not give it to the states? Sure, the bill does include a fair bit of revenue sharing — but nothing like the need, as far as I can tell. Nationalize the goddam banks, crank up investigations of the gangsters who ran them into the ditch, and spend the money where it’s needed — in the state- and local-level institutions that **directly** affect the daily lives of citizens.

  52. 52
    Rome Again says:

    @Samuel:

    When the Republicans are playing nice

    Unpossible!

    You’re a Tool.

  53. 53
    Samuel says:

    Exactly my point.

    Still bitching about the GOP

    Can Reid hold the Democratic Caucus together? Supposedly Democrats are all on board with this united vision that Obama has. But last I heard 5-7 Democratic senators are siding with the Republicans. Who’s fault is that?

    Let me guess–the great right-wing noise machine right? Joe the plumber? Sarah Palin?

  54. 54
    Stuck says:

    the CBO’s stuff

    The CBO stuff is based on predictions on known direct results based on established history from a bill like this, which there have been precious few of in the countries history. It does not, and cannot predict the unknown long term economic transformation that such a massive induction of cash might generate, especially with energy, but also health and other dice rolls. And it is a dice roll of sorts, that is also based on solid, real, and potential science. And I think the country knows it’s time for this kind of gamble, and It is exactly what Obama promised to do during the election. If it doesn’t work we’re all fucked anyway, so wrongnuts, don’t worry, be happy :-) Chairman O has your back. Bwwaaa ha ha ha haaaaw.

  55. 55
    Rome Again says:

    @torrentprime:

    Collins is voting for the bill

    Is she? I keep hearing she is, then she isn’t…

    I don’t think Collins knows what she’s going to do.

  56. 56

    If he did this every night or at least had done this in the beginning the debate would be OVER!

    But then we would have missed the GOP embracing Might Joe Wurlitzer as their new policy guru.

  57. 57
    Rome Again says:

    The problem isn’t the bill, the problem is only the narrative. I blame Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid first, and the media shutout of anyone without an R next to their name second.

  58. 58
    Rome Again says:

    @kommrade reproductive vigor:

    But then we would have missed the GOP embracing Might Joe Wurlitzer as their new policy guru.

    Granted, that was amusing, but is it worth hyperventilating while watching the entire world economy go down the tubes? NO, not really!

  59. 59
    Davis X. Machina says:

    I don’t think Collins knows what she’s going to do.

    I don’t think Collins knows what day of the week it is.

  60. 60
    Martin says:

    I think the challenge here lies with what your baseline assumption of what the economy should look like. To me, consumers are spending to death. I mean, if we have a 0% savings rate, the banks are getting no additional capital outside of either what they extort out of people in interest payments, or what they get from the government, or what they ‘invent’ out of thin air.

    I don’t think ANY plan will work until we knock the shit out of the American public and get a social baseline for spending and saving that makes sense. We need to cut consumer consumption by AT LEAST 10%, and we need policies that can push the public in that direction.

    With that in mind, I’m not sure that this achieves the goal. Somehow we need to do something (other than unemployment) to get the public at large to lower their standard of living a bit and instead invest in nice boring savings accounts.

  61. 61
    Joshua Norton says:

    With the economy in a ditch, getting something done will carry the day. Anyone who’s viewed as an obstructionist is going to pay a big price and the repugs are playing with fire. They seem to have forgotten the past 8 years of politics is over and people want something else.

    Next week when Geither is expected to introduce an expensive administration plan to buy up all the toxic mortgage assets from the banking system is when people should really start screaming the house down. Let’s see how much the banker-lovin’ wingnuts throw shit fits over that.

  62. 62
    srv says:

    Keynes dualism writ large:

    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.”

    Crapitalism has reached the end of its’ business cycle. It worked as long as there was something else to infect, a new bubble to inflate. But there’s no there now. The flat new world has no immunity to this madness, and we have entered the age of Pox Americana.

    The worlds greatest expert on everything Japan did wrong in their crises has thrown every antibody his textbooks have against the wall. Nothing has stuck.

    This bill is complete desperation. We are all solely driven by fear now, and will accept whatever crackpot solutions our ideological drivers will fashion for us.

  63. 63
    KevOH says:

    Well that Washington Times article is interesting because the CBO report concedes that in the short term the bill would boost GDP by 1.4 to 4.1% vs doing nothing. But in the long run (10 years) the GDP will be down 0.1 to 0.3% do to increased debt. Isn’t one way minimize the increase in debt to throw out all the tax cuts? Since tax cuts will be pocketed rather than spent the tax cuts are the waste in this stimulus bill.

    We could follow this bill with Obama’s proposed tax increase on any amount of wages earned beyond $250k. That would make the salary cap good news because dishonest TARP bankers would then only have to pay the 4% tax hike on $250k, instead of millions.

    Then we would be ahead in the short term AND the long term.

  64. 64
    stickler says:

    Big picture, people. Obama reached out to the Republicans, deferred to them, (hell, he still is), and the GOP is acting like a bunch of spoiled brats. Obama looks statesmanlike; Graham looks like a deranged cracker. The less said about the deranged nutbars in the GOP House delegation, the better. We’ll see if the Democrats have the stones to ram this thing through without the mythical 75 Senate votes. I think they will.

    And we’ll get our "stimulus" bill. (Although, why in the name of Judas Priest himself, aren’t the Democrats calling the bill the "American Recovery Act" — since that is the ACTUAL FUCKING NAME OF THE FUCKING BILL?)

    This, however, deserves response:

    It’s all they have left, and the only way the GOP can hope to retake control in our lifetime is if the country literally fails. Of course after they take control they’d make it worse (see Hoover, Herbert), but that’s not what matters.

    Hoover gets a bad rap. Sure, he was pig-headed stubborn about not using gov’t money to actually help people. But he was a damned sight better than Harding and Coolidge who preceded him. The fact that he was still pretty fucking awful says more about how utterly useless Harding and Coolidge were.

    Harding: clueless, aphasic ("I would like the government to do all it can to mitigate, then, in understanding, in mutuality of interest, in concern for the common good, our tasks will be solved."), surrounded by fabulously corrupt men. Oh, and he presided over the reduction of the top income tax rate from 78% to 21%. What could possibly go wrong?

    Coolidge: Taciturn, incorruptible, and absolutely convinced that "the business of America is business." Stock market bubble? What bubble? Shenanigans on Wall Street? Won’t the Free Market (long may it be praised) will solve it! Things looking dodgy by 1928? I won’t run for re-election!

    Bastards. Too damned bad Teddy Roosevelt died of yellow fever in 1920; if he’d lived, the GOP might have been less of a blinkered mess in the 1920s. Who knows — maybe the malefactors of great wealth might have been brought to heel before the 1929 apocalypse. Oh, well.

  65. 65
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    but is it worth hyperventilating while watching the entire world economy go down the tubes?

    It’s going to be okay, Rome.

    Remember the words of Barack:

    Chill the fuck out. I got this.

    The man is as cool as ice.

  66. 66
    Montysano says:

    @Martin:

    I don’t think ANY plan will work until we knock the shit out of the American public and get a social baseline for spending and saving that makes sense. We need to cut consumer consumption by AT LEAST 10%, and we need policies that can push the public in that direction.

    I completely agree. I’m with JH Kunstler: our lives may soon be very different than what they have been. But this may not be the week for BO to lay that on the nation, eh?

    BTW: my wife and son have both read Kunstler’s new novel "World Made By Hand" and give it high marks. I’m next in line for it.

  67. 67
    Jon H says:

    "Somehow we need to do something (other than unemployment) to get the public at large to lower their standard of living a bit and instead invest in nice boring savings accounts."

    It’ll help that our perception of paper wealth in the stock market and real estate have been drastically deflated.

    I also suspect retirement accounts have become what people consider to be their savings – especially since bank interest rates are so negligible.

    It would certainly help if real incomes were rising, so people had something to save.

  68. 68
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Crapitalism has reached the end of its’ business cycle. It worked as long as there was something else to infect, a new bubble to inflate. But there’s no there now. The flat new world has no immunity to this madness, and we have entered the age of Pox Americana.

    Dude, you’re embarassing yourself.

  69. 69
    Jon H says:

    "Anyone who’s viewed as an obstructionist is going to pay a big price and the repugs are playing with fire. "

    I just wish the Dems had the good sense to hold votes during market hours. Let the GOP filibuster on split-screen next to the cliff-diving DOW chart.

  70. 70
    lfo says:

    I am a lurker here but I have to chime in. why are we taking the Washington Times as the ultimate information on the the CBO report? Like they are reliable? The CBO report does not say this at all, it does not say the stim bill will do more damage in the long term.

  71. 71
    Samuel says:

    Robert Barrow, professor of economics, Harvard University, on the stimulus:

    This is probably the worst bill that has been put forward since the 1930s. I don’t know what to say. I mean it’s wasting a tremendous amount of money. It has some simplistic theory that I don’t think will work, so I don’t think the expenditure stuff is going to have the intended effect. I don’t think it will expand the economy. And the tax cutting isn’t really geared toward incentives. It’s not really geared to lowering tax rates; it’s more along the lines of throwing money at people. On both sides I think it’s garbage. So in terms of balance between the two it doesn’t really matter that much.

    How silly—I’m sure he’s some right-wing nut case who gets marching orders from Rush Limbaugh.

  72. 72

    is it worth hyperventilating while watching the entire world economy go down the tubes? NO, not really!

    I watched that in 2008. Now we’re all just waiting for the bowl to fill again.

    Either way, the economy was be-screwed well before Joe was anything but a plunger jockey and there was no chance of it becoming unscrewed while Bush was still in the White House. However, since the people who made him a national hero want to fuck around, I’ll enjoy watching them fuck themselves over.

    OT: As I was typing this a cat threw up on the window sill and possibly the radiator. If anyone would like a cat (or a pair of fur-lined gloves) please let me know.

  73. 73
    Joshua Norton says:

    But he was a damned sight better than Harding and Coolidge who preceded him.

    Hover sort of understood the problem, he just couldn’t bring himself to do anything to fix it. One of my favorite quotes is something he said:

    "The only thing wrong with Capitalism is the greedy capitalists".

  74. 74
    Martin says:

    Isn’t one way minimize the increase in debt to throw out all the tax cuts? Since tax cuts will be pocketed rather than spent the tax cuts are the waste in this stimulus bill.

    That’s the fallacy.

    For people like me (pre-kids we saved 50% of our income) we’ll pocket the tax cuts, but we’re the people that can afford to spend. But we won’t because we don’t know what’s coming next.

    For people like my uncle (who’s never spent less than 100% of his income in my lifetime) he’ll spend every penny of the tax cuts, and he’ll be the leader of the folks fucking up in the next bubble.

    So, in a situation created by the public, handing people money only causes them to continue whatever bad behavior caused the situation to begin with. You can give them services and other things that they can’t convert to big TVs and snuggies, but tax cuts are all wrong.

    What would be ideal is that if the govt wants to hand out $1000, they go through each household and look at their credit situation. For my uncle, send the $1000 directly to Mastercard with a permanent $5000 reduction in his credit line and bail him out of his revolving credit a little bit, with some protection against him making it worse. For me, hand me a $1000 gift card to Lowes which forces me to buy shit.

  75. 75
    Ninerdave says:

    Explain why this is a good bill. I double dog dare you. And if you can’t or won’t, explain why I shouldn’t be siding with the GOP in opposition, despite how crazy they are.

    Why above my pay grade, however I was sent a link to this New York Times article. Which I’ve been reading off and on all day (work keeps getting in the way). So far it seems an excellent run down of what the bill does and why.

  76. 76
    Rome Again says:

    It’s going to be okay, Rome.

    I hope you’ve got some good news for me soon, because otherwise, I’m about to ask the carnival ride operator to stop this thing and let me off. I’d like to spend some time on a different (slower, less scary) ride for a while. Do you know where one is, by any chance?

  77. 77
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    it’s more along the lines of throwing money at people.

    He’s right. I think we should take an idea from Rachel’s show and build a Giant Stimulateror, a huge machine that will simply stimulate and get that economy moving again.

    It would be like a marriage of the Manhattan Project, the Tennessee Valley Authority, and the Miracle Mets.

    It would combine credit, manufacturing, really great left handed pitching, and trans-fat-free Crisco, in one huge dynamic package.

  78. 78
    Rome Again says:

    @Martin:

    For people like me (pre-kids we saved 50% of our income) we’ll pocket the tax cuts, but we’re the people that can afford to spend. But we won’t because we don’t know what’s coming next.

    For people like my uncle (who’s never spent less than 100% of his income in my lifetime) he’ll spend every penny of the tax cuts, and he’ll be the leader of the folks fucking up in the next bubble.

    Does your uncle fall under the category that can afford to spend too? Because I get the feeling anyone who would spend a tax cut because they can’t afford to save right now probably aren’t the targeted folks that the pukes want to give them to.

  79. 79
    Stuck says:

    @Martin:

    with some protection against him making it worse.

    I think felonies for anyone having more than one credit card would do the trick. Kidding mostly, but your right, something that it talked about much is really at the core of the problem. People living beyond their means with unlimited credit. You can’t build a sound economy, at least for long, on that basis. And that goes for the gubment as well.

  80. 80
    Rome Again says:

    @Stuck:

    I don’t have any credit cards, can TZ have my allotment?

  81. 81
    Adrienne says:

    I just wish the Dems had the good sense to hold votes during market hours. Let the GOP filibuster on split-screen next to the cliff-diving DOW chart.

    They did that with the TARP. I have NO doubt that the vote tomorrow will be held during market hours. I’d say, the vote will be scheduled for early to mid afternoon. Let’s remember that the unemployment numbers are out early tomorrow and they are expected to be HORRIBLE. That, combined with no Senate vote on the StimPack and the threat of a Republican filibuster oughta make for an entire morning of TEH SUCK on the Street.

    My spidey senses are telling me that that Reid is about to do what I want him to do.

  82. 82
    Rome Again says:

    @Adrienne:

    Thanks for the warning. I’ll drink myself into a stupor tonight and sleep in.

  83. 83
    srv says:

    @Samuel: Robert Barro.

    The financial crisis and possible depression do not invalidate everything we have learned about macroeconomics since 1936.

    But this time it will be different. Right.

    He is, of course, a big fan of cutting corporate taxes.

  84. 84
    Stuck says:

    @Rome Again:

    No cards for TZ. He’d just fritter it away on Hats for his Cats.

    I don’t have any credit cards either. I’m convinced they’re a secret plot by Oligarchs to own my soul. tore ’em all up several years ago.

  85. 85
    David says:

    The Wingnuts won’t bail themselves out but they’ll fight tooth-and-nail to bail out rich people.

  86. 86
    Montysano says:

    @Samuel:

    Robert Barrow, professor of economics, Harvard University, on the stimulus:

    I think that might be Robert Barro, who wrote this paper for the Cato Institute in which he lovingly refers to Milton Friedman by his first name. So no, he probably doesn’t think much of the stimulus bill. But we’ve tried it Milton’s way, and where do we find ourselves? Chicago Schoolers ought to be happy that they’re not in carts on the way to the guillotine.

    Nice try, genius.

  87. 87
    Adrienne says:

    Thanks for the warning. I’ll drink myself into a stupor tonight and sleep in.

    Yeah, it’s gonna be the equivalent of anal rape with a jackhammer. Without lube.

    EDIT: I don’t think it’s the unemployment numbers per se, but it will the January job loss number coming out tomorrow. Either way, it’s gonna tell us that we are up shit’s creek – not only sans paddle, but sans a boat or life jacket.

  88. 88
    stickler says:

    Joshua Norton:

    "The only thing wrong with Capitalism is the greedy capitalists".

    Yeah, classic Hoover. Not only did he think this, he believed it and then decided NOT to regulate Capitalism. Argh. Well, at least my grandparents didn’t starve. For the most part.

  89. 89
    John O says:

    I can’t get all worked up about the idea that people need to spend less and save more. Of course they do.

    Seems to me that lesson has already been learned and is currently being applied, and will probably be remembered. I know my grandparents never forgot.

    This is one example of the "market" actually working. Learning the hard way you’ve been spending too much and saving too little and now you don’t have a job or health care is very efficient and effective, from the perspective of We and our financial habits.

  90. 90
    Adrienne says:

    @David: Yeah, kinda funny how that works. The Audacity of Masochism.

  91. 91
    srv says:

    @Montysano: Well, if we line up all the economists and crapitalists who hugged Milty at some point and shot them, exactly who would be left?

    I’m all for starting the revolution now, but y’all will still be whining about Harry and Nancy while your kids are running from the zombies.

  92. 92
    Martin says:

    Does your uncle fall under the category that can afford to spend too? Because I get the feeling anyone who would spend a tax cut because they can’t afford to save right now probably aren’t the targeted folks that the pukes want to give them to.

    No, he can’t afford to spend. Here’s the rule – it’s pretty simple:

    If you have borrowed money for non-appreciating assets, you can’t afford to spend.

    Appreciating assets are (generally) house, education, health. There are some others and special cases, but spending $30K for a $20K car which will be worth $8K once you’ve paid it off is lunacy. I know it’s extremely common, but it’s just lunacy. Credit cards are fine to rely on in emergencies and for some short-term management of expenses, but if you don’t have your cards paid off more months than not, you can’t afford to spend. It’s really that simple.

  93. 93
    Stuck says:

    Not only did he think this, he believed it and then decided NOT to regulate Capitalism.

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. On the way back, we’re fixing to lay down a layer of blathering wingnut.

  94. 94
    Shygetz says:

    @Stuck: One way to fix that would be to fix the bankruptcy laws to be more consumer friendly. This should make unsecured credit tighten, which should make it harder for compulsive borrowers to, well, borrow compulsively. Plus, maybe I wouldn’t get so many unsolicited credit card offers.

  95. 95
    rock says:

    @Samuel

    Barro is a right-wing economist. Furthermore, just examines his words on face value:

    1) He asserts the bill won’t work because it is based on a simplistic theory he thinks won’t work. HE DOESNT SAY WHAT THEORY OR WHY. My guess is "theory"= Keynesian economics.

    2) He asserts Krugman is wrong and he is right because he has done work in macro.

    Barro leaves me unconvinced he isn’t doing exactly what he accuses Krugman of doing.

  96. 96
    Stuck says:

    @Shygetz:

    The GOP, and some dems Bankruptcy Act was, and is an abomination. It should be soaked in kerosine, shredded, shit on, and burnt to a fine powder.

  97. 97
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    He asserts Krugman is wrong and he is right because he has done work in macro.

    I think you misspelled macrame.

  98. 98
    Rome Again says:

    @Martin:

    It’s more than that Martin. If you earn $20k, whether you have appreciating assets or not, you still can’t afford to spend (and forget saving).

    I guess I fall into a class that is below the classes you’re thinking of. Do I seem nervous tonight? Yeah, because I know I’m one of the first ones to fall.

  99. 99
    Montysano says:

    @John O:

    Seems to me that lesson has already been learned and is currently being applied, and will probably be remembered. I know my grandparents never forgot.

    In their day, the banker was a cautious sort who would not allow them to do something stupid. The past decade, that banker changed. He looked the same, but he was really something out of Glengarry Glen Ross. "Get them to sign" was the only goal. Because the bankers had CDSs and CDOs, they thought they could make that boat float. They were wrong.

    monty +4

  100. 100
  101. 101
    Matt says:

    explain why I shouldn’t be siding with the GOP in opposition, despite how crazy they are.

    Because they’re a miserable pack of bastard sons of whores. They deserve to be opposed simply by virtue of the fact that they exist.

    It could be argued that Democratic pols aren’t much better, but here and now at least, I KNOW who America’s enemies are.

  102. 102
    Martin says:

    Seems to me that lesson has already been learned and is currently being applied, and will probably be remembered. I know my grandparents never forgot.

    Not really. You have one party still telling them that they need to spend more and the other party not saying anything about it. I mean, if the Democrats really wanted to send that message, it’d be writ large in the stimulus bill, but it’s not. And the GOP still wants the nation in debt, they just want it all to be consumer rather than govt. debt.

  103. 103

    Something important is happening. The Fed is beginning to purchase Treasury Bills. This means that the efforts to get the Chinese to buy our Treasury Bills have been unsuccessful. So spending $2 trillion, or whatever, is a pure inflationary act.

    The President probably believes that spending money on these things will help the people on the South Side. He is wrong. Since the ‘Full Faith and Credit’ of the US is now tainted, spending $400,000 per job to be created will cause food to become more expensive.

    The way I see it, as inflation sets in, people will demand a higher rate of return on T-Bills, increasing borrowing costs, requiring more printing, and more inflation, and more printing, and more inflation.

    With the end game being a government default, and the likely collapse of the social safety net, and hunger. And all those social implications of hungry dependent populations.

    So, in my opinion, we should scrap this bill. The work to be done electrifying the railroads should not be prevailing wage work, because ‘prevailing wage’ work pays typically twice what the free market wage pays. The goal should be to get the biggest bang for the buck, and employ as many people as possible, even if the workers make $40k/yr instead of $80k/yr.

    Recess is almost over.

  104. 104

    Oh, damn! It’s on.

    Well, there you go. He came out today. And by tomorrow, everyone is going to say "Oh, yeah, that’s the guy. Obama. I like him. They need to pass the jobs bill."

  105. 105
    Josh Hueco says:

    @Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill:

    OMG that’s hilarious. I bought Dreams From My Father but I’ve just been jumping chapter to chapter and apparently haven’t reached that good stuff yet.

  106. 106
    Adrienne says:

    @Woodrow “asim” Jarvis Hill: The best part of that is the comment:

    Ah. “Get this motherfucking stimulus package on my motherfucking desk NOW, bitches!”

    FTW.

  107. 107
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    BOB = BIRDZILLA with diarrhea of the mouth.

    Er, beak.

    Well, and without the misspellings.

  108. 108
    Josh Hueco says:

    @Adrienne:

    Or, "Is Barack Obama gonna have to choke a bitch?!?" to Lindsay Graham, Joe Lieberman, and/or Jim DeMint.

  109. 109

    This BIRDZILLA I do not know TheHatOnMyCat. So I am at a loss for words. But I hope you are having a nice evening nonetheless.

  110. 110
    Adrienne says:

    @joe from Lowell:

    Hell yeah it’s on. That combined with his planned, primetime press conference on Monday night shows me that "Barack Obama is tired of their motherfucking shit" and I should get some popcorn to watch the epic smackdown that’s coming. Republicans are teh stoopid. They are bringing a knife to a gunfight. This is gonna be a fucking slaughterfest.

    Oh, and I called it, I called it, I called it. Somebody should hire me as a political advisor/consultant because I am gooood.

  111. 111
    Stuck says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Recess is almost over.

    First thing you’ve said that begins to make sense.

  112. 112

    Buy your own damn fries!

    Lol.

  113. 113
    Adrienne says:

    @Josh Hueco:

    Or, "Is Barack Obama gonna have to choke a bitch?!?" to Lindsay Graham, Joe Lieberman, and/or Jim DeMint.

    LMFAO!! If I have to buy another keyboard, I’m sending you the bill since I just spit tea all over it.

    Obama is basically telling them: "Fuck yo’ couch"

  114. 114

    Adrienne,

    I saw somebody – I think Shuster – refer to the prime time press conference as "risky." Yeah, real effing risky. This is going to be like watching a Jet Li movie.

  115. 115
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Already linked above, but watch it.

  116. 116
    Adrienne says:

    @joe from Lowell:

    I saw somebody – I think Shuster – refer to the prime time press conference as "risky." Yeah, real effing risky. This is going to be like watching a Jet Li movie.

    Exactly. Myself? Personally, I’m partial to Fearless, or, even better – THE ONE.

  117. 117
  118. 118
    Mnemosyne says:

    The Fed is beginning to purchase Treasury Bills. This means that the efforts to get the Chinese to buy our Treasury Bills have been unsuccessful. So spending $2 trillion, or whatever, is a pure inflationary act.

    Robert Barro says the government buying up our own bonds is not only a good idea, but will stimulate the economy. I thought Barro was the new conservative economic god and is always right!

  119. 119
    TenguPhule says:

    The way I see it, as inflation sets in, people will demand a higher rate of return on T-Bills, increasing borrowing costs, requiring more printing, and more inflation, and more printing, and more inflation.

    Except you know, the fear factor.

    When everything else has turned to shit, people run to the US government bonds.

  120. 120
    Jason Kratz says:

    @Samuel: Dude. WTF. This is exactly the time he *needs* to be campaining. He hasn’t been doing enough!

  121. 121

    I think Barack Obama waits until he reads John Cole write a post saying he needs to fight back, and then comes out with the media offensive. That’s how he times it.

    Because John, you write this effing blog post every. single. time.

    And you know what? I’m right there with you, knees knocking, every. single. time.

  122. 122
    TenguPhule says:

    It would combine credit, manufacturing, really great left handed pitching, and trans-fat-free Crisco, in one huge dynamic package.

    My idea was to spend the money on a giant transcontinental cannon in New York and using it to fire Conservative Pundits at Zimbabawe.

  123. 123
    Dave C says:

    Obama brings the fucking A Game:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....804/693809

    (Scroll down to the video)

  124. 124
    Fulcanelli says:

    All I see the wealthy doing with tax cuts at a time like this is running out to buy up foreclosed homes and undervalued stock, thus increasing their wealth. It’s a lot less work than building and running a company, with a better return. While the good ship USS Economy circles the drain and bails out their company on the way down.

    Warren Buffet’s pronouncements over the last few months that "now is the time to buy stock" is all the proof I need. Here’s a guy that could buy the state of California and what has he been doing since last fall? Licking his chops and swooping in every so often like a buzzard on a shit wagon scarfing up cheap stock. How fucking noble.

    Bet he got a better deal than we taxpayers did when he bought into Goldman Sachs. Think all the small scale Buffet wannabe’s would do any different given the chance when their taxes go down? They’re gonna create as many jobs as they did after the Bush tax cuts. Extinguish any open flames and pull my finger to see the magic number.

    When you cultivate and worship an economic system that idolizes financial piracy and raw greed at any expense, even human misery, you end up with, well, what we’ve got.

    On the up side, Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp tanked to the happy tune of over 6 Billion. Cheer up Mr. Cole…

  125. 125
    Dave says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Inflation? You knucklehead; we’re on the edge of a deflationary spiral. Or haven’t you noticed all the people not buying things and the businesses not selling things?
     
    The CPI has plummeted two months in a row and you’re worried about inflation? Jesus wept.

  126. 126
    TenguPhule says:

    Explain why this is a good bill. I double dog dare you.

    It spends money on stuff Bush left to die on the vine for 8 years.

    It gives our state governments a little lifeline, unlike the Fed they can’t run deficits and the pain we’re in now will seem like a tickle when States start disembowling themselves to stay on budget.

    Most importantly of all, with any luck passing it will cause Republican Dittoheads to explode en masse thereby improving the average IQ in America by at least 50%.

  127. 127
    Cain says:

    Shit.. I saw that video on DailyKOS. Oh man… that was awesome. The last part with "what do you think a stimulus is?". Hahaha.. He made them look like utter fools! Fuck me, it feels good to see a man, just demolish stupid shit like this.

    cain

  128. 128
    Josh Hueco says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    I think we need to electrify Bushwick Bill with a cattle prod.

  129. 129
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    My idea was to spend the money on a giant transcontinental cannon in New York and using it to fire Conservative Pundits at Zimbabawe.

    Yes, another feature of my Stimulaterator.

    "Pundit tubes are loaded sir!"

    "Fire!"

    Ka-ka-poooo-CHOOOO!

  130. 130
    TenguPhule says:

    The CPI has plummeted two months in a row and you’re worried about inflation?

    Long term I’d be worried about inflation, but that would be more to the demand for goods exceeding supply then the amount of money available.

    After $3+ trillion in wealth went poof, money supply is not going to be overflowing for quite awhile.

    Also, CPI is worth shit until they add back food and energy.

  131. 131
    Martin says:

    Well, inflation is pretty much inevitable when consumer spending is out of control and there is no saving taking place. That’s not a consequence of future actions but of past ones. Preventing that needed to happen in 2002.

    And the full faith and credit being tainted isn’t a strike against the government, but a strike against the taxpayers. It basically says that we’re too fucking inept, lazy, and greedy to get ourselves out of this shithole. Please stop proving the Chinese right.

  132. 132
    Dave says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Exactly my point. Inflation is the last thing we have to worry about right now. That comes later.

  133. 133
    Adrienne says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: Uhh, I really, really, really wouldn’t want to be the Republicans right now. I really, really wouldn’t want to be on the losing end of a B-Rock Beatdown™.

    Dude is lethal with words. He’s openly mocking these assholes. It reminds me of when he mocked them about the tire guage thing. That was a classic.

    Seriously, after watching that, I feel like I need a cig.

  134. 134
    TenguPhule says:

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. On the way back, we’re fixing to lay down a layer of blathering wingnut.

    You’re going the wrong way. They’re the doormat.

  135. 135
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Watch both videos on the Kos diary. They are Part A and Part 2.

    This is going to be a long four years for Republicans.

  136. 136

    Obama brings the fucking A Game:

    He’s going to community organize the Democratic House Caucus.

    And lemme second the "deflationary spiral" thing. Inflation? Sure.

  137. 137
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Dude is lethal with words.

    I’ve waited all my life for a politician like this.

    Worth the wait. Definitely.

  138. 138
    TenguPhule says:

    Can Reid hold the Democratic Caucus together?

    No.

    SATSQ.

  139. 139
    Fulcanelli says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Most importantly of all, with any luck passing it will cause Republican Dittoheads to explode en masse thereby improving the average IQ in America by at least 50%.

    Splendid. I’m in.

  140. 140

    I love the tire gauge episode. Complete, utter FAIL. They thought that stunt was going to work.

    Just to recap: air pressure, not a punch line. Air space, punch line.

  141. 141
    Dave says:

    Damn…Obama just dominated in that speech. I’d love to see him dismantle Cantor in a debate.

  142. 142
    Ninerdave says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Already linked above, but watch it.

    Awesome.

  143. 143
    Mike in NC says:

    Robert Barro, who wrote this paper for the Cato Institute

    All we needed to known, and fuck you very much, Sammy.

  144. 144

    The dollar may very well be healthier than other world currencies, but I believe you to be wrong Dave.

    The reason I believe you are wrong is because there is only so much stuff. There will be more money chasing the same amount of stuff. This is why I have introduced the PPI. Currencies will shift from paper to commodities, such are farmland and metals. In past societies, butter was used as a unit of exchange.

    I predict that the PPI will rise from here on out, regardless of the government’s inflation figure. It is the aim of the government to keep official inflation low, because their expenses are indexed to inflation.

  145. 145
    Comrade Jake says:

    Just watched the speech. He crushed it. The GOP underestimates this guy at their own peril.

  146. 146
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Tell you what, I maxed out a card sending money to Obama last year. I never doubted that it was a good move.

    Tonight, after seeing that speech, I know for a fact, it was the best money I’ll ever spend.

    Damn. Fired up, and ready to go!

  147. 147
    Adrienne says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    I’ve waited all my life for a politician like this.

    Me too, brother. Me too.

    This is going to be a long four eight years for Republicans.

    Fixt.

  148. 148
    Rome Again says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Ever the nattering nabob of negativism.

    Go away!

  149. 149
    Stuck says:

    @Dave:

    I’d love to see him dismantle Cantor in a debate.

    That would be like cruelty to animals. On par with clubbing a baby seal. Tweety did it without breaking a sweat. Obama would only have to clear his throat, and Cantor would be screaming for his mommy, or Sarah Palin, if she was in town.

  150. 150
    Dave says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:
     
    There is only so much stuff? Really? What, crops only grow once and assembly lines stop after one car is built?
     
    Again, have you noticed that no one is buying anything right now? If government doesn’t inject money into the equation to get that going again, it becomes a self-reinforcing death spiral.
     
    Will inflation be a problem? Eventually. But that will only be the case if we fix the problem we have right now. We’ll be lucky if we have to deal with inflation in five years.

  151. 151

    Also, CPI is worth shit until they add back food and energy.

    What? You gotta eat? You gotta drive to work?

    Jebus, these whining Americans.

  152. 152
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Go away!

    You have to admit, his insanity is rather well written, and funny.

    Hmm ….( cough list ) Who does he remind me of?

  153. 153
    Adrienne says:

    @Dave:

    I’d love to see him dismantle Cantor in a debate.

    Dude. That is SO not a fair fight. That’s like sending Ali in the ring against a blind monkey with one leg and MS. The shit just ain’t fair.

    Dismantle? More like devour, destroy, pulverize, shred – you get the picture.

  154. 154
    Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse says:

    I’ve been avoiding the news and a lot of blogs this week because I can’t take the see-sawing. And I still don’t know whether or not I should sell my damn house.

    The only way I’m staying sane is by going to this page, voting, and reloading, over and over again. Very calming.

  155. 155
    Comrade Jake says:

    One of my favorite parts from the speech:

    When you start asking so what is it that’s such a problem? Where’s all this waste and spending?

     
    "Well, you want to replace the federal fleet with hybrid cars!"
     
    WELL WHY WOULDN’T WE WANT TO DO THAT???

  156. 156
    Fencedude says:

    Oh man, I’m watching the speech and he’s making them all look like fools.

  157. 157
    Dave says:

    @Adrienne:

    Hey, sometimes bloodsport can be a good thing. Besides, that smug SOB needs to get taken down about 40 pegs.

  158. 158
    myiq2xu says:

    The GOP underestimates this guy at their own peril.

    Yeah, all those Senators from solid red states are probably pissing their pants.

  159. 159
    Fencedude says:

    @Comrade Jake:

    Yes!

    That was awesome. I loved the unsaid, but still very obvious "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!"

  160. 160
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    New GOP memo:

    MAX URGENT!

    Danger! Obama! DON’T PISS HIM OFF!

  161. 161
    Fencedude says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Yeah, all those Senators from solid red states are probably pissing their pants.

    They better be, Obama’s doing more for their constituents than they are.

  162. 162
    Ninerdave says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    With the end game being a government default, and the likely collapse of the social safety net, and hunger.

    I thought that was the GOP’s end game.

  163. 163

    Crops are a rate. And this rate is limited by farmland and natural gas, which can be converted to fertilizer. And there is only so much natural gas. Which brings us back to shale oil and you do not want to get me started.

    So we will track the PPI with time. I predict it goes up.

  164. 164

    …solid red states….

    All five of them.

  165. 165
    Ninerdave says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Hmm ….( cough list ) Who does he remind me of?

    I’m still not convinced it’s not who of which you speak.

  166. 166
    Fencedude says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    And this rate is limited by farmland and natural gas, which can be converted to fertilizer

    Wait what? Natural gas fertilizer…wtf?

  167. 167
    torrentprime says:

    OK, I was concern trolling yesterday (but legit, I swear) about whether Obama was in trouble, so it’s on me to admit that that f***ing speech was pretty clean. It doesn’t mean the train is all the way around or anything (Reid can screw up anything), but it’s a great start.
    And yeah, Obama would destroy Cantor.
    Buy anything? Are you kidding? If I spend more than $20 at the bar on Friday, I feel guilty. I haven’t spent money in months. I don’t know how the stimulus will solve my problems (I make too much), but he better do something, because if my Silicon Valley ass ain’t spending money…

  168. 168
    Rome Again says:

    You have to admit, his insanity is rather well written, and funny.

    Hmm ….( cough list ) Who does he remind me of?

    Are you thinking of who I’m thinking you’re thinking of? ;)

  169. 169
    myiq2xu says:

    Oh man, I’m watching the speech and he’s making them all look like fools.

    I was here last year when people were "moved to tears" just reading transcripts of his speeches.

    Turn off the TelePrompter and he’s incoherent.

  170. 170
    Joshua Norton says:

    Damn, my pie filter is working over-time. I must be missing a lot of gonzo wingnut fantasia. Well, not really "missing" per se, more like preemptive ignoring.

  171. 171
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Are you thinking of who I’m thinking you’re thinking of? ;)

    I have two candidates in mind. I mentioned one the other day, and then there is …. the other one. Our best writer.

    Could be either. Or maybe they are collaborating?

  172. 172
    Ninerdave says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Duchebag Magillicutty! You’re back!! Still pissed off Obama beat the snot out of Hillary I see.

    Yeah, all those Senators from solid red states are probably pissing their pants.

    Right, and Obama’s going to loose to McCain. Doesn’t it get tiring to be so bitter?

  173. 173
    Comrade Jake says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Jesus, go back to Riverdaughter, will you?

    You know that site, don’t you? It’s the one where everyone thinks you’re really fucking smart, because any dissent is removed by the mods.

  174. 174
    Josh Hueco says:

    @myiq2xu:

    I thought I smelled goat pussy in here.

  175. 175
    Dave says:

    @myiq2xu:

    And the village idiot tosses in two more worthless cents. Don’t you have a rock to crawl back under, or some Nobama meeting under a bridge with three other crackheads?

  176. 176
    Adrienne says:

    Yeah, all those Senators from solid red states are probably pissing their pants.

    We don’t need those assholes to pass this bill. In fact, we don’t need them to do anything. There are enough Republican senators from BLUE or purple states to pass everything we need to pass. Specter, Snow, Collins, the chick that’s replacing Gregg, Voinovich, Martinez. That’s enough.

  177. 177
    Rome Again says:

    @Ninerdave:

    I thought that was the GOP’s end game.

    It is, he’s trying to do a bait and switch, but, as we know, they’re never good at that sort of thing.

  178. 178
    Adrienne says:

    Turn off the TelePrompter and he’s incoherent.

    Ummm, sorry to let the truth get in the way of good trolling, but he went off the prompter at about 1/3 through.

    Your candidate, McCain, was incoherent even ON the teleprompter! Maybe instead of being a Senator, McCain should be a pupil at "Zoolander’s School for Kids Who Can’t Read Good and Want to Learn How to Do Other Stuff Good Too."

  179. 179
    Ninerdave says:

    @Hill4Evah!:

    Turn off the TelePrompter and he’s incoherent.

    Watch the speech that people are discussing and you’ll note he’s not using a Teleprompter. Idiot.

  180. 180

    They better be, Obama’s doing more for their constituents than they are.

    Exactly.
    Obama, thank God, never got the memo that all Democrats seem to get. You know, the "oh noes, I’m terrified of the GOP" one.

    Obama wasn’t afraid to run it in just about every state, mix it up, find the weak spots, and fight for every inch of territory. And he’ll do it again, and again, and again, because this, too, is a game of inches. That’s what John’s forgotten, and too many of what Al G calls the "Chicken Littles" have forgotten, and it took that speech to remind too many folks that we just need to stay focused, keep walking the walk, and working for the best bill under the situation.

    Chess, not checkers.

  181. 181
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Wow, mike-u has gone from being good for laughs, to just being …. funny, but not ha-ha.

    Sad, really.

  182. 182
    Comrade Jake says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Turn off the TelePrompter and he’s incoherent.

    Why don’t you just call him a stupid nigger and get it over with?

  183. 183

    @Fencedude: Life is energy. Energy is life. Natural gas is life energy collected from the sun, and stored in sediment hundreds of millions of years ago. Today we can convert this stored solar power to fertilizer.

    Natural gas>fertilizer is the modern equivalent of the Indians burying a dead fish by the corn. It is a finite resource. We should not burn it to create electricity.

  184. 184
    Ninerdave says:

    @Comrade Jake:

    Jesus, go back to Riverdaughter, will you?

    You know that site, don’t you? It’s the one where everyone thinks you’re really fucking smart, because any dissent is removed by the mods.

    But no one pays attention to him there. It’s hard to be noticed when you keep posting "Yeah Obama sucks" among all the other posts of "Yeah Obama sucks"

  185. 185
    Rome Again says:

    I have two candidates in mind. I mentioned one the other day, and then there is …. the other one. Our best writer.

    Well, I was thinking of the second one, so I’m not sure who the first is. Hmmmmm.

  186. 186
    Rome Again says:

    But no one pays attention to him there. It’s hard to be noticed when you keep posting "Yeah Obama sucks" among all the other posts of "Yeah Obama sucks"

    It must be such a lonely and boring existence. I’ve seen him hang out on Hillaryis44 too, but, that place must be strange now that it’s absolutely obviously Hillary is NOT 44. Wonder how they keep their revenue going.

  187. 187
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Compadre, if somebody moved your food dish to the left five inches, you would starve to death.

  188. 188
    Fencedude says:

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    Because there are totally no other sources of Fertilizer.

  189. 189
    Rome Again says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Thanks, I needed that. Ha! ;)

    ETA: God I hope you never dislike me that much, OUCH!

  190. 190
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    so I’m not sure who the first is. Hmmmmm.

    See your email.

  191. 191

    @ 186

    Good God! That’s a verbal smackdown of the first order.

  192. 192
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    myiq2xu GoatBoy! Tell me, why do you like to come over here to shit all over the place and then run back to SwampRacist’s blog? Is it because your fellow deadenders give you the best sphincter tongue-bathing evah and you just want to give them some ‘flavor’ to work with? Or is it because you saw John’s post about getting a goat and heading for the hills and you are only hanging around to find out where he has stashed the goat?

    From the amount of foam around your mouth I’m betting it’s both.

  193. 193
    Rome Again says:

    @Sam Wilkinson:

    You meant 187, right? Not mine, surely. I would personally say 187 qualifies perfectly for that award.

  194. 194
    myiq2xu says:

    How soon they forget:

    March 18th, 2008 at 10:28 am Mary

    I haven’t watched it—I’ve see comments elsewhere that he seemed tired and off and I can’t stand the dread—but I read the transcript and thought he covered everything sharply and honestly, with the Ashley closer making me cry.

    But how well will this work in soundbite culture?

    March 18th, 2008 at 10:48 am Jen

    Good grief, I teared up reading the transcript. It’s a good thing I can’t watch it or I’d be looking pretty pitiful.

    —————————————————-

    My personal favorite, posted 90 minutes before the speech began:

    March 18th, 2008 at 8:37 am myiq2xu

    I have a copy of an leaked reaction to Obama’s speech today:

    “It was his best speech EVAH! Barack Obama was uplifting and inspiring, while addressing the controvery with honesty, humility and specificity.

    Obama masterfully showed how Rev. Wright was falsely smeared while simultaneously denouncing Wright’s controversial statements that Obama obviously never heard.

    Barack Obama said it, I believe it, that settles it.”

    The speech will be at 10:15 a.m. EST.

  195. 195
    glasnost says:

    There is another report up from the CBO (allegedly) that this will be more damaging in the long haul than doing nothing.

    It’s bullshit and you fell for it. Read the article and do the math. The CBO report alledgedly says:

    Stimulus impact, years 1-2: 3-6% GDP increase
    Stimulus impact years 3-10: 0.1-0.3 GDP decrease (from maximum, not absolute decline)

    TOTAL IMPACT, YEARS 1-10: 2.7 – 5.9% INCREASE

    Get it yet? If not, just try this math. Which one is bigger?

    3 – 0.3 =

    0.3 – 3 =

    Now would you please put up a fucking post about this? It’s driving me crazy to see this shit sail through memeorandum. Where are the liberal blogs????

  196. 196

    Dammit, yeah, 187. I deserve a verbal smackdown of the first order for screwing that up. Incidentally, isn’t 187 police talk for murder? Because that’s what happened.

  197. 197

    @Fencedude: Fertilizer is like energy, because it is energy. At the risk of reducing appetites, sludge from wastewater treatment plants is used to grow crops. This sludge is ‘renewable’ fertilizer; traditional natural gas fertilizer is ‘non-renewable’ fertilizer. Most of the world’s food is produced with finite, ‘non-renewable’ fertilizer.

    This is why it is unethical to burn natural gas to produce electricity.

  198. 198
    Rome Again says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Were you always an asshole or did you have to work at it?

  199. 199
    Rome Again says:

    @Sam Wilkinson:

    I think you’re right. Perfect, huh?

  200. 200

    @myiq2xu

    Yeah, all those Senators from solid red states are probably pissing their pants.

    Well David Vitter probably is, but then again he really enjoys it. Hey, I looked at your blog and does it consist of anything other than bootlegged video clips, rants about how Jon Favreau has a hot girlfriend and circle jerk links to other blogs? Just curious?

  201. 201
    Comrade Jake says:

    Wow, I just checked out myiq’s web page. He appears to be trying to give Calvinists for Conservatism a run for their money. It’s just piles of drivel and stupid.

    The best part: it’s called Clown House. I kid you not.

  202. 202
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    @myiq2xu:

    mike, seriously …. you sound like you have gone loco.

    Was it the speedballs??

    The syphilis?

    Riding that Vespa with no helmet?

  203. 203

    I know it’s been a while, but yes, once upon a time writing was supposed to move you:

    Rhetoric is the art of using language, especially public speaking and writing, as a means to persuade. Along with logic and dialectic, rhetoric is one of the three ancient arts of discourse. From ancient Greece to the late 19th Century, it was a central part of Western education, filling the need to train public speakers and writers to move audiences to action with arguments.

    Like I said, it’s been a while. But that kind of writing? Putting together logical arguments that also appeal to our better selves? It literally comes from the same place Democracy does. And it’s sad that in the modern age, clueless people mock it’s importance.

  204. 204

    Turn off the TelePrompter and he’s incoherent.

    So what you’re saying is, you think the prime time press conference will go poorly.

    I don’t think you’re right. I guess we’ll see.

  205. 205
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    This is why it is unethical to burn natural gas to produce electricity.

    Note to self, don’t invite this guy to a fart-lighting contest.

  206. 206
    Rome Again says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Note to self, don’t invite this guy to a fart-lighting contest.

    I think I’ll be busy that night myself. ;)

  207. 207
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    I think I’ll be busy that night myself. ;)

    It’s kind of a guy thing ……

  208. 208
    wilfred says:

    Apparently Obama likes thinking for himself:

    General Says His Iraq Envoy Job Was Rescinded
    By ERIC SCHMITT and MARK LANDLER
    Published: February 5, 2009
    WASHINGTON — When the vice president, the secretary of state and the national security adviser all say you have been tapped to be the next United States ambassador to Iraq, odds are it’s a done deal, right?

    Apparently not in the Obama administration.

    Isn’t it about time that fisking was re-introduced? Can you believe the fucking cheek of this lede? God forbid the President should be included in the decision-making process.

    Talk about undermining.

  209. 209
    Rome Again says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    See you after it’s over. ;)

    bfn.

  210. 210
    wilfred says:

    Why are the blockquotes so fucked up? The "Apparently not in the Obama administration’ line was part of the NYT story – not my comment.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02.....=1&hp

  211. 211
    Mike in NC says:

    McCain, was incoherent even ON the teleprompter! Maybe instead of being a Senator, McCain should be a pupil at "Zoolander’s School for Kids Who Can’t Read Good and Want to Learn How to Do Other Stuff Good Too."

    Well, that’s what happens when you get free admission to the USNA and still manage to graduate fifth from the bottom of your class. Worthless sack of shit. Spare us the whiny POW stories from now until forever…

  212. 212
    myiq2xu says:

    Were you always an asshole or did you have to work at it?

    Balloon Juice – Class of 2008

  213. 213
  214. 214
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    See you after it’s over. ;)

    Okay, call me at extension 5683.

  215. 215
    TheHatOnMyCat says:

    Balloon Juice – Class of 2008

    Summa cum-loud?

  216. 216
    Stuck says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Jeesus fucking christ Mylowiq. What are you doing, trolling copies of our past comments for some pyscho journal you’re keeping like the Kevin Spacey character in Seven. You are one creepy dude! Go back to your PUMA lair and stop acting like an insane person.

  217. 217

    And I found out a long time, ago. Definitely long hair.

  218. 218
    Rome Again says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Ummm, that sounds like you are suggesting you weren’t a very good specimen of an asshole when you arrived, au contraire my fiendish troll.

  219. 219
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    Were you always an asshole or did you have to work at it?

    Having close, intimate relationships with assholes (literally & figuratively) has made myiq2xu GoatBoy into the major asshole that he is today. Now if he could only do more than just walk around with his thumb stuffed up himself.

    Awhile back I asked myiq2xu GoatBoy if he could chew gum and walk at the same time and he insisted that he could. So I asked him if he could blow bubbles. Without hesitating he said ‘YES!’, then he pulled out his wallet and showed me a picture of one of his pet goats. It seems that he named it ‘Bubbles’.

    Then he showed me pictures of his other pet goats; Matches, Balloons, Smoke, Glass, Dust, Bottles, Condom…

    Yes, he is a ‘theme’ goat blower.

  220. 220
    Mike in NC says:

    General Says His Iraq Envoy Job Was Rescinded

    Seen Zinni give talks in person and on tape and he’s awesome. Trouble is his post-retirement career has been about padding his bank account and he was Exec VP for DynCorp until last year. Serious problem with possible conflict of interests in Iraq as they are a huge contractor…

  221. 221
    Wonk says:

    @Comrade Jake:

    Why don’t you just call him a stupid nigger and get it over with?

    Simmah dahn, now – he’s got some "slut shaming" to do.

    Admit it, miqu, you posted that pic because you got tired of fapping off to the ugly old racist wimmens, right?

  222. 222
    Rome Again says:

    @Conservatively Liberal:

    ROTFLMFAO!

    Thank you. I needed that too!

  223. 223
    Rome Again says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    and as always, mine is 547737

  224. 224
    wilfred says:

    Serious problem with possible conflict of interests in Iraq as they are a huge contractor

    That’s discussed in the story. My point was that Obama is making the decisions, not Clinton, Biden or anyone else. The lede of the story seems to have trouble with that idea. That’s village politics being transmitted through one of its house organs, the NYT.

  225. 225
    Ninerdave says:

    @myiq2xu:

    Hey! I can search the archives too!

    All quotes by myiq unless noted.

    April 21st

    —–

    Obama spends a gazillion dollars in Pennsylvania, has weeks to work his “magic,” gets fluffed by the media and protected from his own gaffes and missteps, Hillary gets relentlessly negative coverage, is outspent 4-1 or 5-1, and he still loses to her by double-digits.

    Pull the plug, he’s flatlined.

    —-

    April 20th

    replying to zoe in pittsburgh who said

    Vote Obama and just say no to Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton.

    —-

    And say hello to President McCain

    —-

    Aug 21st:

    replying to Conservatively Liberal who said:

    Obama won the primary

    —-

    Incorrect

    Hillary won the primaries. She got the most votes, won the battleground states, and all the big states except Illinois.

    Obama won the caucuses and “red” states that will be voting GOP in November.

    Neither candidate got enough pledged delegates to win the nomination.

    Obama was selected as the presumptive nominee by the superdelegates.

    Less than 100 delegates separate the candidates, and the superdelegates haven’t officially cast their votes yet.

    —-

    Jan 28th

    —-

    I sure hope the Obamaniacs don’t get all butt-hurt and heart-broken when he comes up short.

    —-

    To avoid moderation for excessive links here are the thread ids in order:

    615723
    614463
    991495
    500857

  226. 226
    The Other Steve says:

    I love me some myiq2xu. He reminds me of this guy sodajerk on another website from long ago. :-)

  227. 227
    jcricket says:

    It took the GOP 40 years to get the public to forget their opposition to the first "new deal". It’ll take them another 40 (or longer) if Obama and the Democrats are at all successful this time around.

    That’s why you hear them desperately bleating about how the New Deal was a failure, how this bill is laden with pork, etc.

    I love, love, love Obama calling Republicans out directly, "Your policies were tried. They were measured. They were found wanting. You fuckers (editorializing here) were voted out of office. We’re not trying your ideas".

    I want more of that stuff. All the Democrats need to get on board with reframing the debate: "We’re willing to work with anyone that has good ideas and wants to make progress. Republican ideas from the past are shitty and stamping your feet like a baby is not constructive. So that’s why we passed (insert bill here) with no Republicans on board".

    We don’t need them, and in a year or so, if we’re at all successful, we really won’t need them (greater than 60 votes in the Senate). We need to get out of the defensive posture and realize we won.

  228. 228
    TenguPhule says:

    traditional natural gas fertilizer is ‘non-renewable’ fertilizer. Most of the world’s food is produced with finite, ‘non-renewable’ fertilizer.

    Once again, BOB did not do the science.

  229. 229
    TenguPhule says:

    And there is only so much natural gas

    Shit, if we harness Goatblower and BOB, we’d have enough Natural Gas to keep Balloon Juice running for years to come.

  230. 230
    glasnost says:

    Hey, seriously folks. Does anyone care that the Washington Times story is factually inaccurate and no one has pointed this out? Could I get some chatter about this to make sure John sees it? Could you stop ripping on pointless right-wing douchebags for a minute and do something useful? This is important! Otherwise you’ll see this on CNN tomorrow. I guarantee it.

  231. 231
    TenguPhule says:

    Otherwise you’ll see this on CNN tomorrow.

    Facts have never stopped CNN before. I doubt it will now.

  232. 232
    glasnost says:

    I mean, I got flippin’ Allahpundit to update.

    Don’t be behind the curve.

    Allah is pretty honest for a conservative.

  233. 233
    sgwhiteinfla says:

    I know its late and 200 some odd comments in but I just had to post this comment from President Obama that Rachel Maddow put on her show. Its simple but oh so powerful and it gets to the core of the argument. Its teh stimulus stupid!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt6eDFLoi6E

  234. 234
    Martin says:

    Facts have never stopped CNN before. I doubt it will now.

    And how often does the Washington Times publish something that isn’t factually correct?

  235. 235

    Rachel’s show and build a Giant Stimulateror

    Rachel Maddow is a Giant Stimulateror. Unfortunately, I’m not her type.

  236. 236
    Ninerdave says:

    @glasnost:

    Hey, seriously folks. Does anyone care that the Washington Times story is factually inaccurate and no one has pointed this out?

    It’s an article in the Moonie Times, what more do you need? Actually it’s not even that it’s a link to memeorandum about a link to the Moonie Times

    Could I get some chatter about this to make sure John sees it?

    Note his use of the parenthetical word: allegedly. If you’ve read John for any amount of time, you’d know that he’s actually a real thinking conservative (a very rare beast) and skeptical about government spending. I believe the gist of the post was to ask for proof that government spending will actually help the economy, since the Dems have been lacking, as usual, about selling their POV.

  237. 237
    Ninerdave says:

    @J. Michael Neal:

    Rachel Maddow is a Giant Stimulateror. Unfortunately, I’m not her type.

    I think she’s hawt too. So does my wife in fact….that gives me dirty thoughts.

  238. 238
    glasnost says:

    I believe the gist of the post was to ask for proof that government spending will actually help the economy,

    Yeah, a good start to that is demonstrating that the Wa Times article that started him doubting in the first place is crap, right?

    When the analysis claiming that the spending *won’t* help the economy actually *didn’t* say that, that’s a good flippin’ start. As for "proof".. you want proof that the future will occur as predicted? What?

  239. 239
    sgwhiteinfla says:

    glasnost

    Here is the CBO’s director’s blog accurately describing what the letter said and of course its not what the Wingnut Times said. Also if you click on the word letter in the first sentence you get to see the actual said letter to judge for yourself. Hopefully Cole will see this.

    http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=205

  240. 240
    daveinboca says:

    This stimulus is bad in so many ways, and the current economic distress isn’t nearly as bad as the double-digit inflation & interest rates that Jimmy Carter left us with in 1980….just the press is screaming Chicken Little to cover for Obama’s Great Leap Forward, which will be as successful as Chairman Mao’s was in the long run not too long ago! What a crock that Obama & his twin nitwits in the Senate & House are ramming down the throats of gullible MSM fellow-travelers…..and the Pied Piper of Hamelin leading the lemmings out of town over the cliff…

  241. 241
    Stuck says:

    and the Pied Piper of Hamelin leading the lemmings out of town over the cliff…

    That was George Bush and his only mission accomplished. Now be a good wingnut and kindly STFU!

  242. 242
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    Shorter daveinboca: I scratch my ass, sniff my finger and smell roses.

    Really? No wonder you think Incurious George was the greatest thing since waterboarding.

  243. 243
    Cain says:

    @Conservatively Liberal:

    Then he showed me pictures of his other pet goats; Matches, Balloons, Smoke, Glass, Dust, Bottles, Condom…

    CL, you’re one hilarious dude. :-) Goatboy always brings out the best in you.

    cain

  244. 244
    glasnost says:

    – the spread on the short-run positive effect is 3.8% – 8.9%. For 2008-2011 combined. That’s a variance of 5.1% uncertainty.

    There’s no way, no way at all, they could have an overall negative prediction with only a 0.2% spread if it was taking into account a range of positive predictions with a 5.1% spread. It makes no sense.

    You people are way too jaded. Sh*t like this matters. This is a big cut in the death by 1000 cuts.

  245. 245
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    Thanks cain but when it comes to myiq2xu GoatBoy, the jokes write themselves. I kinda like having him drop in periodically because every blog need someone to wear the "KickMe!" sign and it is nice of myiq2xu GoatBoy to volunteer his services here.

    I am waiting for his return to Wonkette. They had some grand fun at his (and the other PUMAs) expense last time they dropped in…lol

    No wonder he likes clowns so much. With him, it’s a lifestyle choice.

  246. 246
  247. 247
    Joshua Norton says:

    And how often does the Washington Times publish something that isn’t factually correct?

    Every time you use "Washington Times" and "correct" in the same sentence an angel farts.

  248. 248
    Common Sense says:

    All kinds of fun myiq quotes near those pages he linked. One of my favorites:
    ——–

    myiq2xu:

    Hillary wasn’t my first choice. He didn’t run.

    She wasn’t my second choice either. She wouldn’t have been my third or fourth choices but they dropped out before my second choice.

    But after taking a long look at Obama, I’m gonna hold my nose and vote for Hillary.

    And if somehow Hillary manages to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, I’ll vote for Obama. Hell, I’ll even support him.

    Note to Caidence: Quit giggling because I said “snatch” in the same sentence with “Hillary.”

    You know you were, don’t lie!

    ——

    So what type of support did that entail? And how many Riverdaughters did you convince to support BO?

  249. 249
    Ninerdave says:

    @glasnost:

    Yeah, a good start to that is demonstrating that the Wa Times article that started him doubting in the first place is crap, right?

    Yo, douchebag, re-read my post CAREFULLY, then try again.

  250. 250
    Ninerdave says:

    @daveinboca:
    HA!! Alright Spoofy McTroll, I’ll play:

    This stimulus is bad in so many ways,

    Gimme three.

    and the current economic distress isn’t nearly as bad as the double-digit inflation & interest rates that Jimmy Carter left us with in 1980

    Sure. Ok. Tell me why. Then tell me why it was ok for Bush and the GOP who claim to be fiscal conservatives to piss away Clinton’s surplus. Note: you can’t claim the war(s)….those are all off the books.

    ….just the press is screaming Chicken Little to cover for Obama’s Great Leap Forward, which will be as successful as Chairman Mao’s was in the long run not too long ago!

    Yes, we are all commies now! or should I say we’re all commie’s Mao! Please elaborate on what part of Obama’s Great Leap Forward is…well… Commie?

    What a crock that Obama & his twin nitwits in the Senate & House are ramming down the throats of gullible MSM fellow-travelers…..and the Pied Piper of Hamelin leading the lemmings out of town over the cliff…

    We’ve had tax cuts for the rich and trickle down economics for 12 years. Exactly what went right with that theory?

    Next, read this and tell me what’s flawed with that analysis.

  251. 251
    Ninerdave says:

    @Common Sense:

    All kinds of fun myiq quotes near those pages he linked

    There’s gold in them thar hills!! I spent all of five minutes digging up those quotes. Imagine what would be found with…oh..say..seven minutes!

    Note, myiq tossed his quotes out there and was silent after we posted ours. Funny that.

  252. 252
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @Davis X. Machina and @Jon H: :

    Thanks for those links. I’ll take a link to the report itself, and the CBO director’s explanation, over the Washington Times’ second-hand interpretation any day.

  253. 253
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    @myiq2xu:

    Compadre, if somebody moved your food dish to the left five inches, you would starve to death.

    FTW !

  254. 254
  255. 255
    Xenos says:

    I don’t know how the stimulus will solve my problems (I make too much), but he better do something, because if my Silicon Valley ass ain’t spending money…

    The only things my discretionary money is being spent on are maps and travel books about countries that may have functional economies after this is all over. Not a simple research project.

    Does anyone know when Rosetta Stone will come out with a version for Lëtzebuergesch?

  256. 256
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    Note, myiq tossed his quotes out there and was silent after we posted ours. Funny that.

    myiq2xu GoatBoy has developed this habit of tossing off here and then running away. I think he’s hoping we will chase him.

    Zuzu, yeah that TZ line is one for the books. Ouch.

  257. 257

    […] John Cole, decidedly more sympathetic to the president’s aims here than me, offers some good advice: It would be nice if the Democrats would sell this bill and explain why it is good, rather than Obama just coming out and warning about catastrophe every now and then. I dealt with eight years of fear-mongering about terrorism, I don’t need it regarding the economy. I recognize our economy is a disaster, and I will support the bill heartily if you give me a reason and make your case. They simply haven’t done that, and part of my ambivalence is I am tired of doing stupid things just to be “doing something.” […]

  258. 258
    headpan says:

    I love the Obama chuckle. He uses it sparingly but at just the right times. Like in this speech. When he does it, that’s when I know he’s "got it" and I feel reassured.

  259. 259

    Riding that Vespa with no helmet?

    The vespa is the goat known for its short wiry hair and smooth, short horns, correct?

    No wonder he keeps falling off.

  260. 260
    Laura W says:

    @headpan: You’ll really enjoy this, if you missed the clip on the "news". Is there anything more endearing and sexy than this sort of guffaw? It starts at 2:25.
    BTW: This is from Fox "news", and when you go in to get the link it says: "Copy the code below and PLASTE it into your web page."
    Love it.

  261. 261

    […] Balloon Juice: John Cole says Obama should quit warning about catastrophes and sell his bill: […]

  262. 262
    headpan says:

    Ninerdave
    @J. Michael Neal:
    Rachel Maddow is a Giant Stimulateror. Unfortunately, I’m not her type.
    I think she’s hawt too. So does my wife in fact….that gives me dirty thoughts.

    I swear, all straight men got it bad for Rachel! Starting to look like a epidemic. You dirty, dirty, bad, bad, probably even nasty little boys!

  263. 263
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    @headpan:

    Not me. While I love to watch and listen to Rachel, she is a bit too ‘manly’ looking for my tastes. Not a bad looking lady, just not my cup of Joe. ;)

    When you can say that a lady is handsome. . . ;)

  264. 264
    Svensker says:

    and the current economic distress isn’t nearly as bad as the double-digit inflation & interest rates that Jimmy Carter left us with in 1980….

    Yup, it’s all in our whiny libtard imaginations.

    Honey, you didn’t just drink the Kool-Aid. You’re doing the backstroke in it.

  265. 265
    The Populist says:

    Exactly my point.

    Still bitching about the GOP

    Can Reid hold the Democratic Caucus together? Supposedly Democrats are all on board with this united vision that Obama has. But last I heard 5-7 Democratic senators are siding with the Republicans. Who’s fault is that?

    Let me guess—the great right-wing noise machine right? Joe the plumber? Sarah Palin?

    That’s easy…the few dems siding there are in states that are controlled mostly by GOP and GOP talking points. Think about it, if you are a blue dog and you vote for this, you risk losing to a republican next time because Rush and the boys have these people wrapped around their fingers. Not only that but these areas are full of people (like you maybe?) who hate democrats no matter what.

    So basically, the blue dogs are trying to have it both ways. The fault is the unreasonable pressure from fools who buy right wing talking points over common sense.

  266. 266
    DBL says:

    One of the biggest complaints about President Bush was that he rushed to war in Iraq – he stampeded the Congress (both Democrats and Republicans) into voting for war by scaring them into a quick vote, without taking the time to analyze the consequences.

    Isn’t that exactly what President Obama is doing here? He’s trying to scare Congress into voting for this package without taking the time to analyze the consequences.

    Rather than hope and change, this looks like more of the same old same old to me.

  267. 267
    Dustin says:

    @Brick Oven Bill #197

    Two things:

    1. Fertilizer is not fucking "energy" is plant food; get your fucking science right. And what kind of fertilizer are we talking about here? Nitrogen? Phosphorus? Potassium? The one thing that can be said is that we strip nitrogen out of methane natural gas and use that as a fertilizer, but do you seriously think that there’s no other place to get the most plentiful atmospheric gas on the planet than methane gas deposits? That our entire food infrastructure will collapse because we’re using methane as a fuel source? Come on man, get a fucking clue.

    2. Just a quick little note since you’re freaking out about it. I work in the brewing industry. We have a waste methane biogas recapture facility & power plant. You figure out what that means.

  268. 268
    The Populist says:

    Isn’t that exactly what President Obama is doing here? He’s trying to scare Congress into voting for this package without taking the time to analyze the consequences.

    No he’s not. Where nobody could effectively analyze the Iraq situation that Bush laid out, this is obvious…job losses daily, people aren’t spending money, many more foreclosures, business shutting down.

    The consequences of not acting, to me, seem more devastating than if we spend the money and do what is needed to keep from watching deflation take hold. You may have a point YET you had to use the lame change comment. Argh…you guys need to do better than that.

  269. 269
    HyperIon says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Also, CPI is worth shit until they add back food and energy.

    this is what Kevin Phillips says in his latest book. he goes on at great length about how the US measure of inflation is gamed to keep it low.

    it’s like America has become one big marketing scam.
    somebody is working every fucking angle.

  270. 270
    Jay Ballou says:

    There is another report up from the CBO (allegedly) that this will be more damaging in the long haul than doing nothing.

    Good fucking grief, the CBO said nothing of the sort! If you’re so clueless as to believe such bullshit, then no wonder you don’t understand why this bill is necessary even after all that has been offered to explain it.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] Balloon Juice: John Cole says Obama should quit warning about catastrophes and sell his bill: […]

  2. […] John Cole, decidedly more sympathetic to the president’s aims here than me, offers some good advice: It would be nice if the Democrats would sell this bill and explain why it is good, rather than Obama just coming out and warning about catastrophe every now and then. I dealt with eight years of fear-mongering about terrorism, I don’t need it regarding the economy. I recognize our economy is a disaster, and I will support the bill heartily if you give me a reason and make your case. They simply haven’t done that, and part of my ambivalence is I am tired of doing stupid things just to be “doing something.” […]

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