Also, I Hear He Is Muslim And Will Be Sworn In On A Quran

We can officially christen it the failed Obama administration, as they are damaged goods before even taking office:

The big dominos seem to be falling already, less than a week from the news breaking. I simply cannot fathom the damage Barack Obama and Rahm Emmanuel have done to their incoming administration, a month before it takes office. But I do know they dealt hit a critical blow this week. Barack Obama has just been exposed as a liar to the American people. He lied to us in a manner that puts him in the same league as Bill Clinton, Senator Ted Stevens, Senator Robert Torricelli, Rep Randy “Duke” Cunningham and Rep William Jefferson. We have yet to know what, if any, crimes Obama has committed. But the fact is this week he went out and lied straight to the American people. He tried to cover his tracks.

Someone call the Elves. Is it too early to impeach Obama, or do we have to wait until he takes office? Technicalities, I know. At any rate, I am sure Andy McCarthy is willing to offer his legal advice drafting the soon to be required articles of impeachment.

Now really might be a good time to go rent The Hunting of the President, for those of you who have not watched it, or to buy the book. Blinded by the Right would be a good companion piece.

Also, a pair of these and maybe one of these. You will need them the next four to eight years.






489 replies
  1. 1
    AJStrata says:

    Hey John.

    Let’s be fair here. I am not calling for his impeachment. His only crime is being a dumb politician – sadly not a real crime.

    The point of my post should have been summarized as ‘severe disappointment’. I, like you, resist the siren calls of ‘true conservatives’ (may they live in exile for years to come). I am not looking for ways to undo the election or trip Obama up.

    With that said, Obama really destroyed himself. He is clearly not any better than the other politicians. And when it came time to trust the American people to assess the details, and realize it would be normal for him and his team to work transition issues, he decided to hide the truth and snooker us.

    His followers, who believed in his media-wrapped image, are the ones who will crucify him for being a fake. Not conservatives.

    That was the point I was attempting to make -BTW.

    Cheers, AJStrata

  2. 2
    LiberalTarian says:

    You know, some behavior is just not acceptable. These folks are going down, hard.

    That is, if we can find them in their little hidey holes all covered in grease paint and camo. Let’s just admit they are crazy people, like the John Bircher and Aryan Nation fools in northern Idaho and western Montana, and scorn them in the public square. They cry "Repression! Suppression!" and they’ll be right. You don’t give power to crazy people. I think we learned that with 43.

  3. 3
    rawshark says:

    I can’t believe anyone has the fucking nerve to accuse Obama of lying when the fucking ‘L’ word was never allowed to be uttered regarding Bush. People make me sick.

  4. 4
    John Cole says:

    And, to be fair, you are also not calling for his execution, excommunication from the church, or his children.

    His followers are smart enough to understand the difference between Obama denying anyone in his office has had any contact with Blagojevich, and whether his office had anything to do with the pay to play criminality that Obama is referring to when he says “these issues.” Even your trackback to your original post references “these schemes,” which clearly is a denial of any wrongdoing, not a denial of any contact at all.

    Christ, this is going to be a long four years.

  5. 5

    A long four years? Jesus! I thought Obama was in his second term already.

  6. 6
    dnA says:

    Wow is the entire right wing blogosphere illiterate? This is the truncated quote they’re using to say Obama is lying about having no contact with Blagojevich from the Health care rollout earlier this week:

    In terms of our involvement, I’ll repeat what I said earlier, which is I had no contact with the governor’s office. I did not speak to the governor about these issues. That I know for certain.

    This is…and I am not shitting you, the paragraph directly below:

    What I want to do is to gather all the facts about any staff contacts that I might — may have — that may have taken place between the transition office and the governor’s office. And we’ll have those in the next few days, and we’ll present them.

    So basically, he’s only lying about his office having no contact if you can’t read.

  7. 7
    AJStrata says:

    LOL! Come now John.

    You should know I have been hammering the Obama Birth Certificate folks bloody senseless on their nonsense. I call them the Cult of the COLB for good reason, none of it positive to them.

    I also posted that people cannot predict Obama would do bad simply out thin threads. I was optimistic on his security selections.

    For someone who abhors black and white views you seem to have lost your gray scale here.

    I am no Sean Hannity – can’t stand the fool.

    AJStrata

  8. 8
    dbrown says:

    The worst part is a report came out showing that the cock-sucker bushwack and his puppet master the ass whore cheney led a major effort to comment war crimes (ie torture) and where is that front page story and talk about all these major crimes and lying by these shit eating low lifes? The American whore media are as bad as the wingnuts that supported the evil empire in all its crimes – sick.

    I submitted this and it isn’t being held for review!? Your filter needs work! Damn

  9. 9
    Allan says:

    Oh, I see the asshat is already defending himself AND continuing his fact-free keyboard drooling over here.

    Also, some good reading from Jamison Foser over at Media Matters:

    Media pick up where they left off 8 years ago

    A tasty excerpt…

    Perhaps the most striking aspect of the media’s attempts to link Obama to the Blagojevich scandal has been the volume of news reports that are purely speculative — and not only speculative, but vaguely speculative. That is, they don’t even consist of conjecture about specific potential wrong doing. They simply consist of completely baseless speculation that Obama might in some way become caught up in the investigation at some point in the future, for some reason. It’s little more than, "Maybe Obama will be involved." Well, sure. And maybe he’ll play shortstop for the Washington Nationals next year.

  10. 10
    Tonal Crow says:

    The GOP have nothing to give but lies, smears, and innuendo. So that’s what they’re giving. As Don Henley once said about the media, "They can do the innuendo, they can dance and sing, when it’s said and done they haven’t told you a thing. We all know that crap is king; give us dirty laundry". And since the GOP own the media….

  11. 11
    tavella says:

    One of the most annoying yet amusing things during the primaries was the number of people — including some here — going "well, I don’t have anything against Hillary Clinton, but she’s got all this *baggage*, and there will be constant attacks, so I’m going to vote for Obama". The sad, silly delusion that "Clinton rules" were only going to be applied to Clintons, and that the right wing machine wouldn’t come up with an equal set of fictional controversies to constantly attack Obama with. The "baggage" was a creation of the machine, and Obama would have his own set soon enough.

    I wasn’t so foolish, and one of my concerns about Obama was whether he actually believed all the ‘reaching across’ and ‘post-bipartisan’ shit, because if he did he was going to be useless. I *knew* Clinton could handle it. I was somewhat reassured during the primaries, but now it’s the real game time and I hope he is as good as Bill Clinton was.

  12. 12
    AJStrata says:

    You folks do know cussing is a clear sign that your intellectual limit has been reached and you’re straining to compile a rational argument?

    Well, I must be onto something given the vile bile erupting around here. I’d say keep it classy, but clearly that would stress this group to their limits.

    Take care John.

  13. 13
    cleek says:

    Barack Obama has just been exposed as a liar to the American people.

    that sentence is, ironically, a lie.

  14. 14
    rawshark says:

    You folks do know cussing is a clear sign that your intellectual limit has been reached and you’re straining to compile a rational argument?

    Do you know that people who say that cursing means you have no argument are just being dismissive because they actually have no response?

  15. 15
    John Cole says:

    One of the most annoying yet amusing things during the primaries was the number of people—including some here—going “well, I don’t have anything against Hillary Clinton, but she’s got all this baggage, and there will be constant attacks, so I’m going to vote for Obama”.

    I believe I specifically addressed that on several occasions, even noting that at least with Obama it would be new bullshit they were chucking.

    Well, I must be onto something given the vile bile erupting around here

    What “vile bile?” No one has even told you to go fuck yourself yet.

  16. 16
    RSA says:

    He lied to us in a manner that puts him in the same league as Bill Clinton, Senator Ted Stevens, Senator Robert Torricelli, Rep Randy “Duke” Cunningham and Rep William Jefferson.

    In this list of recent politicians who have lied to the public, a few names are conspicuous by their absence… Or perhaps the missing names are in a league above those mentioned. I could believe that.

  17. 17

    Q. Wow is the entire right wing blogosphere illiterate?

    A. Yes.

  18. 18
    kay says:

    I figured Obama was going to be the unlucky "next President" who was going to suffer fall-out from every sanctimonious Right winger and media type who sacrificed integrity and intellectual honesty to cover for Bush.

    They’re repairing their own credibility. Obama WILL be held to account!

    It’s ok, I guess. I’m betting he’ll holdup under the glare of the OUTRAGE!!!!

    The timing’s a little suspicious, though.

  19. 19
    lost in GA says:

    Wow. Just wow. Oh, and cussing is as American as apple pie, especially for those of us who grew up as the kid of an NCO living overseas (not far from the Fulda Gap) during the cold war.

  20. 20
    burnspbesq says:

    @AJStrata:

    I agree when you say that you are no Sean Hannity.

    You are infinitely worse, because you seem to know better and yet you have succumbed to this insantiy.

    Which part of "nothing happened" do you not understand?

    Or do you think that Pat Fitzgerald was lying when he described the results of the investigation?

    Now please just crawl back in your hole, and don’t come out unless and until you have uncontradicted, legally admissible evidence of wrongdoing by someone connected to the Obama transition team. Anything less than that is just noise, and I don’t have the time or the bandwidth for it.

  21. 21
    gwangung says:

    You folks do know cussing is a clear sign that your intellectual limit has been reached and you’re straining to compile a rational argument?

    No, that’s just style points here.

    BTW….3.5 from the Seattle judge, here.

  22. 22
    gwangung says:

    You are infinitely worse, because you seem to know better

    That has not been demonstrated.

  23. 23
    Allan says:

    AssJunkieStrategery, John’s community is a delightfully profane place, as you would know if you frequented it other than when your execrable prose is being mercilessly mocked here. Those of us who read and comment here don’t have giant sticks of faux prudery rammed up our asses.

    Contemplate this counter to your meretricious prose: Eat shit and die.

  24. 24
    dnA says:

    @burnspbesq:

    AJ is no Sean Hannity. Sean Hannity can obviously read a teleprompter, and is therefore not borderline illiterate.

  25. 25
    KCinDC says:

    Yes, AJStrata, I can’t imagine why anyone is treating you like a wingnut when all you did was compare Obama to a bunch of convicted criminals based on your own fantasies about what he’s guilty of.

    Tavella, if I ever brought up the Clinton baggage, it was only to refute the inane argument from her supporters that she was "tested" and thus the Republicans wouldn’t be able to successfully attack her unlike the naive Obambi (who has since mutated in PUMA lore into a hardened Chicago mobster).

  26. 26
    ATinNM says:

    I’m convinced.

    Any group who can carry off THAT has the necessary management skills to turn-around the the US automotive industry.

    Car czar? Baloney! A Car Ayetollah is what we need.

  27. 27
    burnspbesq says:

    @gwangung:

    Understood. I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

  28. 28
    Comrade Jake says:

    @tavella:

    I’m not sure what’s more pathetic: AJ’s post and follow-up here, or the lame attempt to use this nonsense to demonstrate that Obama will soon have Clinton baggage.

    Pretty much everyone knew the right was going to bring their usual dose of bullshit. What was interesting with Obama is that none of it really seemed to have any staying power.

  29. 29
    cleek says:

    doesn’t the right know that we’re at war, and that by attacking the president-elect, they are weakening this country ? by making common cause with the enemies of America, they are signaling to all true patriots that they despise America. i think it’s clear that the right should be treated no better than The Enemy itself.

    buncha fifth-column objectively-pro-terror motherfuckers.

  30. 30

    @AJStrata: Nope. You’re being treated as you deserve, as an anti-American fifth-columnist, a modern-day Quisling, working against your nation from the inside. It’s long past time that the American people understood that your defense for that has always been to create false equivalences between minor issues on our side, to conceal your own acts.

    Evidently, though, the thought of confronting the truth about yourself, presented in an unvarnished and direct fashion, makes you uncomfortable, and perhaps a bit ashamed. If so, that’s a good thing — you should be ashamed of yourself for peddling such tripe.

  31. 31
    kay says:

    @RSA:

    I noticed that too. It’s interesting. If you have a minute (and that’s all you’ll need) go and read President Bush’s statements the day of the Libby indictment.

    He said he was "saddened". He said it’s "innocent until proven guilty" and that he believes in process.

    Then he said he had a lot of work to do and ran off.

    There were no follow-up questions.

  32. 32
    Onihanzo says:

    The big dominos seem to be falling already, less than a week from the news breaking. I simply cannot fathom the damage Barack Obama and Rahm Emmanuel have done to their incoming administration, a month before it takes office.

    Seriously…how the fuck do you imbeciles continue to make such ridiculous predictions with a straight face, after seeing them proven false again and again. And again. And again? The same histrionics over absolutely nothing, while letting one of the most corrupt and incompetent administrations this nation has ever seen skate through on a golden pass.

    His followers, who believed in his media-wrapped image, are the ones who will crucify him for being a fake. Not conservatives.

    His "followers", i.e. the majority of Americans, haven’t even twitched. His appointments have been met with wide public approval and none of this ridiculousness about Blago has measured a single drop on Obama. Pack that one up and bundle it with the "Whitey" tape myth where only the fringe nutters are buying it, you snake-oil selling bastard.

    Here’s the truth as I see it, AJ. You’re a malcontent shitheel with a hard-on about seeing this country destroyed. Period. All of you and your whining, petty, ankle-biting ilk. Only when you guys have driven it to ashes…when it sits, ruined beyond repair by either your own infrastructure-wrecking design or your own divisive rhetoric… will you morally bankrupt lowlifes ever find satisfaction.

    I can only take comfort in the fact that, while the shame of it probably won’t shut you up, maybe–just maybe– the far margins of society where you’ve relegated your bullshit worldview to everyone else’s, will at least fucking diminish the din of its insanity.

    What “vile bile?” No one has even told you to go fuck yourself yet.

    Where does that line form?

  33. 33

    @cleek: Godwin it, you beat me to the fifth-columnist line.

  34. 34
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @tavella:

    I hope he is as good as Bill Clinton was.

    You mean you want Obama to spend his entire presidency passing Republican legislation and then be impeached?

  35. 35
    JD Rhoades says:

    I love the way Strata links to a bunch of other right-wing nutblogs and crows that "a consensus" is forming.

  36. 36
    dbrown says:

    As someone who hates bush more than most and really hates all rightwingers I have to say, calling posters here by four letter words is not polite. Yes, they may be wrong but at least they are here trying to make a point and learn (and they prevent this from being a echo chamber.) For my part, yes, I will tell them why they are wrong and hope that I can do half as good a job as John did. Sometimes I will give up on them when they refuse to prove what they are saying with facts but I really think that personal attacks are not needed. Of course, I may be full of it but flaming people doesn’t do much good (but does feel good for a while.)

  37. 37
    kay says:

    On CNN, host Anderson Cooper: "No matter what the Democrats do on the Hill, Scooter Libby won’t go to jail. Much of this is political theater. Some might even say ‘politics as usual.’ "

    Ahem.

  38. 38
    Tonal Crow says:

    @Onihanzo: The GOP rhetoricians don’t believe the stuff they write. They write it to convince others to believe it, and thus to support the GOP. And their arguments are multitudinous, as they’re unconstrained by the truth. Note that: many people think that fact-based arguments are thereby automatically more convincing than arguments based upon lies and fantasy. That’s false, because fact-based arguments are constrained by…the facts. Lie-based arguments, on the other hand, are completely unconstrained, and thus can be crafted any which way to appeal to the maximum number of people.

    It’s a wonder that even a small minority of the public accepts fact-based arguments.

  39. 39
    zoe kentucky says:

    Keep on going with this guilt-by-association game. It worked with Ayers and Wright, didn’t it?

    Oh, wait. It didn’t.

    I know the rightwingers aren’t used to this idea, but facts actually do matter. Evidence matters. Baseless speculation and conjecture are neither facts nor evidence. You have nothing and are trying to build a case on nothing. At the end of the day you still have nothing. Attacking him over baseless things is not going to help your credibility.

    Obama Derangement Syndrome is presenting itself rather early, isn’t it? For pete’s sake, he’s not even in the WH yet. Pace yourselves already.

  40. 40
    TR says:

    His followers, who believed in his media-wrapped image, are the ones who will crucify him for being a fake.

    Really? As one of his followers, let me assure you that you don’t have the slightest fucking clue what you’re talking about.

  41. 41

    Blagogate: What Did Obama Know and When Did He Know It?????!!!!!!! The Murdoch Times Wants to Know!…

    by Teh Nutroots | Oh no! A representative from the Obama administration—Rahm Emanuel, who might someday be Chief of Staff—spoke to Blagojevich about Obama’s replacement! Proving that Obama, who isn’t even president yet, LIED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPL…

  42. 42
    Cassidy says:

    Next he’ll be saying that he was also having secret meetings with Romo…

  43. 43
    ksmiami says:

    All I keep hearing is that we are in Great Depression II and thousands of people are losing their livelihoods and the Republicans simply don’t care if we turn into Brazil. So AJ go fuck yourself and your fucking stupid party and maybe come back when the GOP actually offers something for the country besides fear and smear and impoverishment.

    God damn motherfucking dammit to hell

  44. 44
    Ed Marshall says:

    Perlstein’s Law: In an online argument, the badder a wingnut gets his butt beat, the more likely he is to excoriate the butt-beater for using bad words.

  45. 45
    Broken says:

    If this is an example of lying, where has AJScata been the last eight years? Maybe the sheer volume busted his Lie-O-Meter.

    Or maybe it’s just the latest flavor of Wing-Nut inversion:
    truth = lying, lying = truth,
    absence of evidence = certainty of guilt.

  46. 46
    Ed Marshall says:

    Whille female online wingnuts are rare they seem to have no problem with profanity and are likely to engange in it.

  47. 47
    TR says:

    I love the way Strata links to a bunch of other right-wing nutblogs and crows that "a consensus" is forming.

    Seriously — Flopping Aces *and* QandO *and* HotAir are all on board? Why, that represents a range of opinion that goes all the way from "wrong and crazy right-winger" to "crazy and wrong right-winger." Truly impressive!

  48. 48
    Tonal Crow says:

    I have to object to the widespread use of the term "fuck" as an expletive. Using it buys into the GOP’s core anti-Liberty meme that sex (and, more broadly, the pursuit of happiness) is bad, dirty, and evil. I recommend replacing the "fuck" with "GOP", as in "Those motherGOPers are lying again", or "GOP yourself". It’s short, sweet, accurate, and, if widely adopted, will help beat the GOPers at their own rhetorical game by (properly) redefining their party as bad, dirty, and evil.

  49. 49
    Cassidy says:

    @Tonal Crow: But go pee yourself doesn’t have the same ring too it.

  50. 50
    Tonal Crow says:

    @Cassidy: Pronounce it as a single syllable, not as three distinct letters.

  51. 51

    @Cassidy: Yeah, but GOWet(suit) yourself does. And has the benefit of accuracy, to boot.

  52. 52
    burnspbesq says:

    @Tonal Crow:

    The definitive word on the use of "f**k" as an expletive was spoken many years ago by Lenny Bruce. It still makes sense, and it’s still funny.

  53. 53

    Re: AJStrata – what a fucking joke!

    Tavella, nice little strawman you put together there. Nobody ever said only Clinton would have to deal with harrassment, we just knew the schtick of the Clinton game already and wanted something far better. So far we’ve gotten it.

  54. 54
    gwangung says:

    I have to object to the widespread use of the term "fuck" as an expletive. Using it buys into the GOP’s core anti-Liberty meme that sex (and, more broadly, the pursuit of happiness) is bad, dirty, and evil. I recommend replacing the "fuck" with "GOP", as in "Those motherGOPers are lying again", or "GOP yourself". It’s short, sweet, accurate, and, if widely adopted, will help beat the GOPers at their own rhetorical game by (properly) redefining their party as bad, dirty, and evil.

    Hm, well, personally I now think of "GOP" as on a plane more extreme than "fucK’, but, now that I think about it…

  55. 55
    USAPatriot says:

    Since John Cole’s post offered no rebuttal to AJStrata’s post, and none of the comments here do either (hint: name-calling is not rebuttal, kids), the neutral observer would have to conclude they don’t have any rebuttal. What a sad waste of server space.

  56. 56

    The point of my post should have been summarized as ‘severe disappointment’. I, like you, resist the siren calls of ‘true conservatives’ (may they live in exile for years to come). I am not looking for ways to undo the election or trip Obama up.

    AJStrata, you got a long way to go before you even begin to travel the journey John Cole did. Don’t compare yourself to him. You aren’t on that journey yet (if you ever actually do make it – I hold out little hope).

  57. 57
    John Cole says:

    @USAPatriot: Umm, dipshit? Here and here. Comments #4 and #6, respectively.

    I didn’t need to rebut it my post because it is so obvious, and my readers are not total morons. I only felt the need to state it once Strata came all clueless into the thread.

    You are welcome.

  58. 58
    zoe kentucky says:

    AJStrata,

    I truly don’t get what you’re screaming about.

    Obama won the presidency and vacated his senate seat and the governor of Illinois is in the position to name his replacement. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone from Obama’s office having some friendly discussions with the governor about who might replace him, as a courtesy, out of respect for the president-elect. This would have been the case if the governor had been someone other than the corrupt, unethical Blagojevich.

    Blagojevich said it himself that all Obama’s people would only give him was "appreciation" in exchange for naming someone who Obama prefers. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone from Obama’s team– or Obama himself– did anything unethical whatsoever. Fitzgerald made that crystal clear. Fitzgerald has hours and hours of Blago on tape. If anyone from Obama’s team had done anything remotely untoward don’t you think that would have been brought up already?

    This story is not about Obama, it’s about the corrupt, unethical Blagovecich. The vast majority of people get this. If it comes out that Obama’s team had something to do with helping gather evidence on Blago you’re going to end up looking even sillier than you do now.

  59. 59
    kay says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Sure they did. Several times.

    To recap: the accusation and conviction here are for "lying".

    The original writer proves the lie with a paragraph pulled from a press conference, but omits the paragraph that followed.

    He omits the paragraph that followed because it’s fatal to the accusation/conviction for "lying".

    To rebut, all they had to do was post the next paragraph, which they did, several times.

    The "he ALREADY lied" story is just sloppy. I can’t believe it’s achieved as much traction on the Right as it has.

    You’re rusty. It’s been 8 years. Smarten up.

  60. 60
    bago says:

    There is a time for politeness, and then there is a time for phrases like "skull fuck a kitten". After two failed wars, trillions down the drain, and shit like this, the latter seems more appropriate .

  61. 61

    […] Thank you, John Cole. Spotlight […]

  62. 62
    LiberalTarian says:

    I may be full of it but flaming people doesn’t do much good ….

    I don’t know, with guys like him, it usually causes them to grab their balls, roll on the ground shrieking, and then they go away. In my book, that’s a win.

  63. 63
    cleek says:

    Since John Cole’s post offered no rebuttal to AJStrata’s post,

    ergo: GOP 4E! TLA!

  64. 64
    USAPatriot says:

    "Umm, dipshit?"

    What are you, in junior high school? How juvenile and pathetic.

    What’s obvious is you’ll accept any level of weaselly Clintonian parsing from a Democrat.

  65. 65

    @USAPatriot: And you are a sad waste of oxygen.

  66. 66
    cleek says:

    "weaselly Clintonian parsing"

    you can lecture us on parsing as soon as you clowns prove you know how to read.

  67. 67
    USAPatriot says:

    Obama was a bit more careful on the 11th, but he denied any contact on the 9th:

    "I had no contact with the governor or his office and so we were not, I was not aware of what was happening."

    That is not a true statement.

  68. 68
    USAPatriot says:

    Thank you for illustrating my point:

    "@USAPatriot: And you are a sad waste of oxygen."

  69. 69
    KCinDC says:

    USAPatriot, you should be thankful for the name calling. Without it, you wouldn’t have a distraction to focus on and would actually have to address the substantive part of the response.

    It’s the usual right-wing avoidance of argument: "They said bad words, were uncivil, mentioned Nazis, included one questionable fact among a raft of well-supported material, said something that can be taken out of context and twisted into an insult to ‘real’ Americans, etc., therefore we can ignore the argument."

  70. 70
    LiberalTarian says:

    USAParrot:

    What, cha got no balls?

    How come you aren’t fighting in Iraq?

  71. 71
    Ed Marshall says:

    Clap harder USAPatriot, tinkerbell’s dying again.

    You guys are kind of funny when no one needs to give a damn what you think.

  72. 72
    The Moar You Know says:

    The insuffrable Victoria Toensing crapped out some words in the Wall Street Journal which are going to lay the ground work for the Brave Keyboard Commando Balgalphabet Counterstrike Against The Caliphate, Part II – namely, that Patrick Fitzgerald is an unprofessional hack who has a hard-on for destroying the Republican Party while protecting the horrible DemoncRATS at all costs.

    You watch, this will be the next attack on Obama – that Fitzgerald hates Republicans because he was so mean to Cheney and has cherry-picked his evidence to protect Obama. You read it here first.

  73. 73
    smiley says:

    @John Cole:

    …my readers are not total morons.

    Um… thanks?

  74. 74
    USAPatriot says:

    "How come you aren’t fighting in Iraq?"

    Evidence for your assertion?

    Are you fighting in Afghanistan, the part of the war some on the left actually claim to support? Or are you a hypocrite?

  75. 75
    kay says:

    @USAPatriot:

    The question he was asked at that press conference is as follows:

    "where you aware of that was happening with your Senate seat?"

    This was the press conference that followed Blago’s arrest.

    He responded with the following:

    "I had no contact with the governor. I was not aware of what was happening".

    I think you should leave this to Fitzgerald. Posting the answer to the question without posting the question is sort of amateur hour, and a lot like posting the first paragraph without the paragraph that follows.

  76. 76
    AhabTRuler, V says:

    @smiley: Hey, I am very proud of my partial moron status. I took a long time to work my way out of the basement. I am on the fast-track to the apex of being a moron: Management!

  77. 77
    USAPatriot says:

    kay,

    Obama’s answer on the 9th was not true. Posting the question does not change that fact at all.

  78. 78
    John Cole says:

    @kay: Give up. It has never occurred to them that only a complete moron would lie about having talked to Blagojevich WHEN THE FBI HAS AUDIO TAPES.

    Also, it has not occurred to them that there is no incongruity between Obama saying he had not talked to the governor and his staff having provided names to the governor, and likewise, they can not figure out the difference between the innocuous act of providing names to the governor as possible successors and the criminal pay-to-play that Blago has been accused of conducting.

    They are idiots.

  79. 79
    John Cole says:

    @smiley: Any time. I got your back, boss.

  80. 80
    dsc says:

    this straining after gnats post from NRO

    Re: Name That Scandal! [Mark Krikorian]

    Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten this much mail. Well, here are some suggested names for the Blagojevich imbroglio, in no particular order:

    Blago Affair, Blagopalooza, Blago-Rahma, Blago-Bama-Rahma, Bling4Blago, Seatwater, Grand Theft Blago, Blago-Grab (like Abu-Ghraib), Blagola (like payola), an attempt at a Blagopoly, Blag-mire, Blag-pro-quo, Blago-ditch, Blag-out, Blagobamanation, Blagobamamania, Blagobama, Grab-Blag, Dem-Blago, BlagoMart, Blagorama, Blagodrama, Blaygo (or Blago-paygo), P2PGate (Pay to Play Gate), Blagojevich 5, Senat-Ebay, E-Blago-bay gate, Blago-auction, ChiBlagoScam, Chicago’s ethical Blag Hole, Just-a-governor-from-the-neighborhood-gate, the Crackpot Dome-hair Scandal.

    Or, of course, just "Chicago politics."

  81. 81
    kay says:

    @USAPatriot:

    What are you basing the lying conviction on, again?

    Is it the "we" and then the "I"….. had no contact with the governor statement, at the press conference on the 9th?

    We’ve established it wasn’t the press conference on the 11th, because there’s that pesky second paragraph that puts paid to that notion.

    So that’s out. Not even remotely a lie.

    "We" then, "I" on the 9th? Is that where we are?

  82. 82
    Indylib says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    You watch, this will be the next attack on Obama – that Fitzgerald hates Republicans because he was so mean to Cheney and has cherry-picked his evidence to protect Obama.

    These are the right-wingtard memes that are going to develop that make it so it won’t matter what Obama does with Fitzgerald it will be taken as evidence that something is being covered up.

    There’s the one that will say that if Obama keeps Fitzgerald on as US Attorney for Chicago after he takes office it’s a reward for covering up any involvement that Fitz found on Obama’s part in the Blago shitpile. I mean, why else would Obama keep a Bush appointed, Republican US Attorney?

    Then there’s the one that will say that if Obama removes Fitzgerald from the US Attorney position it’s a partisan move to keep Fitz from digging up dirt on Obama that ties him to the Blago shitpile.

    Neat how that works, huh? Damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t.

  83. 83
    kay says:

    @John Cole:

    I’m extraordinarily patient. It’s my only good quality.

    He’ll quit eventually, or I’ll bore him to death.

    Let’s start over. He’s not clear on several points :)

  84. 84
    USAPatriot says:

    The apparent liberal standard:

    "I had no contact with the governor" means "I was not directly, personally, and knowingly involved in a felony."

    and anyone who doesn’t agree is crazy, an idiot, a Nazi, a [insert your favorite vulgarity here] right-winger, etc.

    Such a profound group.

  85. 85
    cleek says:

    "Such a profound group."

    bwaahhh! you’re being incivil!! bwaahhh. crrryyyy.

    after 8 years of ferociously defending bald-faced lies like "We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories," from Bush, it’s pretty fucking rich of you clowns to go after pissant shit like this.

    but hey, i guess there’s a reason you fuckers got your asses handed to you last month.

    keep up the nonsense. scream your way right into irrelevancy.

  86. 86
    john b says:

    and what does "torture" mean to the right again?

  87. 87

    LOL! I am truly looking forward to 4 years of people who went barking moonbat since November 2000 continuing that moonbattery in their attempts to defend this neophyte president-elect. Should be fun.

  88. 88
    John Cole says:

    The apparent liberal standard:

    “I had no contact with the governor” means “I was not directly, personally, and knowingly involved in a felony.”

    No, it means “I didn’t talk to the governor.” He isn’t and has never denied that his staff was in contact with Blagojevich, which is especially clear since Obama has stated that he will release all staff contacts with Blagojevich in the near future.

    Christ on a crutch you are tedious. All you have is bs and speculation.

  89. 89
    John Cole says:

    @William Teach: Teach, having long monitored your silliness, I think you should just look forward to every day you enjoy life without accidentally sticking a fork in an outlet while standing in a puddle of your own drool.

  90. 90
    kay says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Sure it does. That’s why the rest of the media dropped this line of inquiry.

    "Where you aware of what was happening with your Senate seat?" is too broad.

    "I had no contact with the governor" is a poor answer, not because it’s a lie, but because it doesn’t answer the question YOU’RE asking, which is, I guess, "where you aware that the governor was selling your Senate seat?"

    But that wasn’t what was asked.

  91. 91
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @John Cole: lmfao

  92. 92
    John Cole says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: You have to realize who Teach is to truly appreciate what I said. Here- I did a search of his site. Go enjoy his deep thoughts on the Obama birth certificate story.

    Teach is from the batshit crazy wing of the GOP.

  93. 93
    USAPatriot says:

    No, "I had no contact with the governor" is in fact an untrue statement, a fact which kay and John Cole continue to dance around.

  94. 94
    USAPatriot says:

    "bald-faced lies like "We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories," from Bush"

    Not a lie, a statement he believed to be true at the time he uttered it.

  95. 95
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @John Cole: I had actually clicked over to his site and copied and pasted his most recent moonbat insane entry into a message to ask him who exactly was crazy and by what standard of craziness when I decided not to waste my time and cancelled the comment.

    Then I saw yours.

  96. 96
    Onihanzo says:

    Teach is from the batshit crazy wing of the GOP.

    There aren’t any other wings available.

  97. 97
    cleek says:

    Not a lie, a statement he believed to be true at the time he uttered it.

    now there’s some Clintonian parsing!

  98. 98
    kay says:

    @USAPatriot:

    No, it isn’t. It means, "I had no contact with the governor".

    It’s also a given, in my opinion, that Obama had no contact with the governor.

    I’d get off the Rahm Emanuel line of inquiry, also, that’s a dead end, but that’s your call.

  99. 99
    USAPatriot says:

    "now there’s some Clintonian parsing!"

    You merely demonstrate that you don’t know the basic definition of he word "lie."

  100. 100
    John Cole says:

    I have a Monday deadline and have to get back to work, but I will make you a bet, USA Patriot. When it turns out Obama did nothing wrong, did nothing criminal, and you have to apologize, you owe me a bottle of scotch and a cigar.

    If, for some reason, he has done something illegal, I will send you a new wetsuit, your choice of size and color, and I will even through in a complimentary dildo (you also can choose the size and color there). Until then, I am done with you.

    The problem, though, is that nothing will ever be resolved with these wingnuts. Now that a Democrat will soon be in charge, every action of the federal government is not an automatic act of patriotism, so once the issue is settled, the conspiracy theories from the black helicopter/G. Gordon Liddy/Freeper wing of the party will start.

    Prediction: When it turns out Obama did nothing, the conspiracy theory will be as follows- The feds actually have Obama on tape doing shady deals with Blago, but they are suppressing the info so they can leverage it into influence and control over Obama.

    Any takers?

  101. 101
    USAPatriot says:

    kay,

    "It’s also a given, in my opinion, that Obama had no contact with the governor."

    Nonsense. Sending a staffer equals "contact."

  102. 102
    USAPatriot says:

    "wrong" and "illegal" are not synonyms.

    "The problem, though, is that nothing will ever be resolved with these wingnuts."

    Classic projection from the "Bush is a Nazi war criminal" crowd.

  103. 103
    cleek says:

    You merely demonstrate that you don’t know the basic definition of he word "lie."

    oh i know it.

    and i know the meaning of the word ‘parse’, too.

    do you know the meaning of the word "hypocrite" ?

  104. 104
    TR says:

    Nonsense. Sending a staffer equals "contact."

    So it was just like Reagan himself was meeting with Saddam Hussein when he sent Rumsfeld, and just like Reagan himself was negotiating with the Ayatollah when he sent Bud McFarland? Good to know.

  105. 105
    kay says:

    @USAPatriot:

    I’m going. There’s one remaining question (barring actual participation by Emmanuel with the pay to play scheme, which I think is unlikely).

    Did Blago make an offer to Emmanuel, and did Emmanuel then report the offer to….whomever in law enforcement ?

    That’s legit. Good question. Hasn’t been asked, though.

    If that doesn’t pan out, then you have to go with "Obama knows bad people in Chicago".

  106. 106
    John Cole says:

    “wrong” and “illegal” are not synonyms.

    Which is probably why I included both, setting a higher standard than saying just illegal.

    Sweet jeebus you are a piece of work.

  107. 107
    cleek says:

    Sending a staffer equals "contact."

    ah, so Bush himself outed Plame ?

    too bad Fitzgerald missed that one, too!

  108. 108
    El Cid says:

    What has gotten the right wing so outraged is that Obama is clearly not culpable in this nitwit Governor’s schemes.

    The logic is that because they really, really want Obama to be guilty of something then Q.E.D.! He IS guilty!.

    They’re once again pissed off as all get out because Obama really is smarter and better than they are, and God it drives them crazy.

  109. 109
    USAPatriot says:

    President Bush clearly did not lie by accepting the consensus view that Iraq had WMD. He clearly believed in good faith that Iraq had WMD. No parsing required there.

    Equally obvious: Obama knew his staff was in contact with Blagojevich about the Senate seat, and so his "no contact" claim on the 9th was false.

  110. 110
    elf says:

    Methinks they do not know Chicago Politics Much!

    Lived there most of my life and right now pretty homesick …having fond memories of the Bilandic fiasco..and almost miss the snow and ice.

    I suspect Rod blog was actually trying to build his own "machine". Not too successful at it either.
    Anyone else notice the smirk on Daley’s face the other day at his news conference when asked about this whole shindig?

    Funneee

  111. 111
    John Cole says:

    and God it drives them crazy.

    I think you mean Allah.

    Equally obvious: Obama knew his staff was in contact with Blagojevich about the Senate seat

    You know why it is so Obvious that he knew his staff was in contact with them? Because he SAID THEY WERE IN CONTACT WITH THEM.

    Sneaky stuff from Obama. Very sneaky.

  112. 112
    USAPatriot says:

    "ah, so Bush himself outed Plame ?"

    Huh? Richard Armitage was sent where by Bush? What are you talking about?

  113. 113
    cleek says:

    He clearly believed in good faith that Iraq had WMD. No parsing required there.

    maybe you should go look up "parse"

    and given the tons of contradictory evidence that he chose to ignore, what he "believed" is irrelevant. he chose not to listen to the truth and chose instead to champion deceit. which is what liars do, of course.

  114. 114
    USAPatriot says:

    "You know why it is so Obvious that he knew his staff was in contact with them? Because he SAID THEY WERE IN CONTACT WITH THEM."

    Not on the 9th, he didn’t. I have not claimed that Obama lies every single day. I said he didn’t tell the truth on the 9th. That claim has not been rebutted. Cole’s strange homosexual fantasies and other vulgar jibes obviously don’t count.

  115. 115
    USAPatriot says:

    cleek, there was not "tons of contradictory evidence" The consensus view from the intelligence community was that Iraq had WMD. You are not telling the truth. Whether that’s due to dishonesty on your part or mere ignorance, only you can know.

  116. 116

    Nonsense. Sending a staffer equals "contact."

    You are not getting the point. Even if there was contact, Obama refused the pay to play scenario. There is no illegal activity here. What the hell are you yammering about? The English language is understandably somewhat ambiguous at times. The kind of contact you are alluding to did not happen. For you to be right, not only would there have to be conversation, but agreement as well. You are barking up the wrong tree. The transcript clearly states that Obama was not willing to give Blago anything more than appreciation for selecting Valerie Jarrett (ie: no pay to play, that is why Obama is referenced in Blago’s words as "that motherfucker".

    End of story, go find something else to fret about.

  117. 117
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @AJStrata:

    Just wondering, do you edit the trackbacks at your site in a dishonest, self-serving way, or does the Internet do it for you?

    John Cole’s post:

    Also, I Hear He Is Muslim And Will Be Sworn In On A Quran

    by John Cole

    We can officially christen it the failed Obama administration, as they are damaged goods before even taking office:

    As it appears in the trackback at AJS’s site:

    # Balloon Juice » Blog Archive » We Can Officially Christen It the Failed Obama Administrationon 13 Dec 2008 at 1:55 pm

    […] They are damaged goods before even being sworn in: […]

  118. 118

    cleek, there was not "tons of contradictory evidence" The consensus view from the intelligence community was that Iraq had WMD. You are not telling the truth. Whether that’s due to dishonesty on your part or mere ignorance, only you can know.

    Where are the WMD’s USAP? Perhaps it is YOU who is ignorant, and fell for propaganda.

  119. 119
    John Cole says:

    @Zuzu’s Petals: I changed the title here, Zuzu.

  120. 120
    cleek says:

    cleek, there was not "tons of contradictory evidence"

    more lies. do you ever get sick of lying ?

    The consensus view from the intelligence community was that Iraq had WMD.

    more parsing. the "consensus" is irrelevant, since membership is defined by agreement to the preferred viewpoint. the view of the people on the ground, the inspectors (who were let into Iraq, contrary to yet another Bush lie), was that there was no WMD there. they were right. you were wrong. Bush lied. hundreds of thousands are dead. it’s time for you clowns to own your failure.

  121. 121
    USAPatriot says:

    Stop your lying cleek. Bush received brifings from he CIA telling him there were WMD. Therefore, when he merely repeated that information, he was not lying.

  122. 122
    Mike in NC says:

    "President" Bush clearly did not lie by accepting the consensus view that Iraq had WMD.

    That looks much better.

  123. 123
    USAPatriot says:

    "Where are the WMD’s USAP?"

    It does not demonstrate a lie when a statement made in good faith turns out to be wrong later. So what is your point?

  124. 124
    USAPatriot says:

    Mike in NC,

    "That looks much better."

    Maybe, if you’re 12.

  125. 125
    cleek says:

    Bush received brifings from he CIA telling him there were WMD.

    he received other briefings, too. such as those from the people on the ground in Iraq who said there weren’t any WMDs.

    he ignored the truth and spread the lie because it suited his plans better. just as you are doing now.

  126. 126
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @John Cole:

    Okay, thanks. I withdraw the question to AJS.

    Too bad the edited version didn’t make it to the trackback. It is much funnier … and more accurate.

  127. 127
    Onihanzo says:

    *sigh*

    On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam’s inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.

    Source

    on 60 Minutes, Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA’s Europe division, revealed that in the fall of 2002, President Bush, Vice President Cheney, then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and others were told by CIA Director George Tenet that Iraq’s foreign minister — who agreed to act as a spy for the United States — had reported that Iraq had no active weapons of mass destruction program.

    Source

  128. 128
    USAPatriot says:

    Speaking of lies, here’s another one: "he received other briefings, too. such as from the people on the ground who said there weren’t any WMDs."

    But even by your own ridiculous standard, Bush didn’t lie. It is not a lie to accept the consensus view, even if some analysts disagreed with that consensus at the time. Thanks for playing.

  129. 129
    John Cole says:

    Cole’s strange homosexual fantasies and other vulgar jibes obviously don’t count.

    Ahh, USA Patriot is a true believer. I mention a wetsuit and a dildo, and the first thing that comes to mind for him is hot gay sex. Good show, mate.

    Interesting- the wetsuit and dildo bit might a solid rorschach test for these nutters. Say “wetsuit” and if they blurt out “gay sex,” you know you have a live one.

  130. 130
    Jymn says:

    Wow. The right wingers posting here certainly are a naive bunch. One guy believes Bush wasn’t lying because the CIA gave him faulty info. C’mon. Blix was stating the obvious. There were no WMD. Bush was lying. He knew the truth, tried to slander Blix. D’uh.

  131. 131

    It does not demonstrate a lie when a statement made in good faith turns out to be wrong later. So what is your point?

    My point is you can’t prove anything without the evidence, like convicting someone of murder without a body (the person might actually very well be alive, it’s not murder – without evidence of WMD’s there were no WMD’s that you can prove).

    Furthermore, you stated in your above quote that it does not demonstrate a lie when a statement in good faith turns out to be wrong later, perhaps Obama made a statement in good faith that nothing untoward occurred (we did not have contact doesn’t mean we never spoke about the seat at all, it means we didn’t talk about or agree to "pay to play" extortion). The type of contact is what is important. The transcript says Obama would not give more than appreciation for his preferred selection, he did NOTHING WRONG! Perhaps by using the words "no contact" what he should have said was "a discussion occurred about the seat but we would not agree on any payment for our preferred candidate of that seat". It’s the same thing, really, but we’re all going to sit here for hours and go over and over it, when it doesn’t matter, the transcript says in Blago’s own words that Obama would not give more than appreciation. Don’t you have a life that you need to live and isn’t this really just a waste of everyone’s time?

  132. 132
    cleek says:

    Speaking of lies, here’s another one: "he received other briefings, too. such as from the people on the ground who said there weren’t any WMDs."

    the only way that’s a lie is if inspectors said they had found WMD in Iraq. which they didn’t. in fact, they reported that they didn’t.

  133. 133
    USAPatriot says:

    Tenet said it was a "slam dunk" case that Iraq had WMD. The consensus view at the time was that Iraq had WMD. Some after the fact butt-covering by Drumheller doesn’t change that fact.

  134. 134
    USAPatriot says:

    cleek,

    Try to get your story straight at least. Did the inspectors say there weren’t any, or did they say they had not found any stockpiles? Try at least to keep your lies consistent.

  135. 135
    USAPatriot says:

    Does John Cole really believe that only "nutters" think a reference to a dildo is sexual? Or is he being dishonest yet again?

  136. 136

    But even by your own ridiculous standard, Bush didn’t lie. It is not a lie to accept the consensus view, even if some analysts disagreed with that consensus at the time. Thanks for playing.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, a victim of propaganda.

  137. 137
    USAPatriot says:

    Lots of projection on the left. Here’s more: "Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, a victim of propaganda."

  138. 138
    cleek says:

    Try to get your story straight at least

    since my story hasn’t changed, you are now lying about me.

  139. 139
    Ed Marshall says:

    Does John Cole really believe that only "nutters" think a reference to a dildo is sexual? Or is he being dishonest yet again?

    No a dildo is by nature seuxal, but why homosexual?

  140. 140

    Funny USAP, you have no WMD’s to prove there were WMD’s yet you state emphatically that they existed, and I am projecting when I call you on it? Fuck off! You bought into a lie because you wanted it to be true (and now you’re doing it again with the Blago story), it’s not my problem.

  141. 141
    Onihanzo says:

    USAPatriot: He not only lied but when caught in one of them, his administration actively worked towards kneecapping a CIA agent (which in turn kneecapped the front operation she and other CIA agents were working under) and endeavoured to shortcircuit the investigation by stripping the prosecutor of any leverage, post Libby’s conviction.

    Being duped is one thing. Working to protect your own duping is beyond suspicious. It’s nigh evidence of complicity.

    Which is why:
    – Fitzgerald going after Republican corruption = a baseless witchhunt
    -Fitzgerald going after Democrat corruption = good, especially if speculation and conspiracy theory can be culled from it.

    I think the question we all want answered is just how involved Obama was in Vince Foster’s murder. No one’s asked him that. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

  142. 142

    But even by your own ridiculous standard, Bush didn’t lie. It is not a lie to accept the consensus view

    Uh, no sorry. When you are president, you don’t get to use the "consensus view" as an excuse. The buck stops with you. If you decide that the situation warrants a war, and it turns out you were wrong, then you were wrong. Period.

    And don’t tell me that the yellowcake fiasco was a "consensus view." That was cooked information from the get-go. And don’t tell me that Bush didn’t have a hard on to get Saddam before 911. That is a bald faced lie. And don’t tell me that the white house didn’t set up a marketing scheme to sell a bogus war and generate fear and suspicion about a nonexistent connection between Iraq and 911 in order to do it.

    Don’t tell me they didn’t lie, they did, and that’s a lie, and you are a liar.

  143. 143
    USAPatriot says:

    "Funny USAP, you have no WMD’s to prove there were WMD’s yet you state emphatically that they existed,"

    That’s not what I said at all. Are you illiterate? I said President Bush believed at the time that they existed, therefore he didn’t lie when he said so. Information we have in 2008 has no bearing on what Bush and the intelligence community believed in 2002. This should be obvious to anyone with an IQ above room temperature.

  144. 144
    Hyperion says:

    Obama knows bad people in Chicago

    well, that beats the BS on Washington Week In Review last night where they had 2 people "report" on the Blogo-scandal. the second "report" was about the Obama "connection". Turns out he’s part of the chicago political world. who knew? how this amounts to reporting i do NOT understand.

    OT but Moyer’s interview with Greenwald was excellent. GG got off to a slow start but was smoking by the end. He is backing a Patrick Fitzgerald type investigator who would be instructed (by Pres Obama) to follow the evidence about torture to wherever it leads. He mentioned Dems whom he thought were cupable: the folks who were told about the changes in the interrogation methods. It was impressive.

  145. 145
    USAPatriot says:

    Onihanzo,

    Richard Armitage outed Plame. Richard Armitage was not a Bush loyalist and opposed the war. next.

    TheHatOnMyCat,

    Whether they were wrong and whether they lied are two entirely different things. Are you illiterate?

  146. 146
    Broken says:

    cleek, there was not "tons of contradictory evidence" The consensus view from the intelligence community was that Iraq had WMD

    So if you eliminate or ignore all contradictory evidence, you have a consensus? So if I am going to tell a lie, I just toss out all information that conflicts with it, thereby achieving consensus, thereby achieving TRUTH. It’s the standard wing-nut reality inversion.

    In the case of WMD, the aluminum tubes were for making centrifuges, after the Bush people stifled the DOE experts who said they were not.

    Iraq was trying to get uranium from Niger, after you stifle the people from State Dept intelligence and CIA non-proliferation group who said it wasn’t true. Not to mention that Iraq already had 500 tons of yellow-cake of their own.

    And if you get hold of an Iraqi defector who says Iraq’s WMD program was shut down in 1994, you have Cheney imply he said the opposite.

    See? Consensus, not a lie.

  147. 147
    cleek says:

    Bush is still lying about it. just last week, in fact:

    GIBSON: If the intelligence had been right, would there have been an Iraq War?

    BUSH:
    Yes, because Saddam Hussein was unwilling to let the inspectors go in to determine whether or not the U.N. resolutions were being upheld. In other words, if he had had weapons of mass destruction, would there have been a war? Absolutely.

    bald.faced.lie.

  148. 148
    Onihanzo says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    That’s the irony. The cowardly little shit can’t even own up to it.

    GIBSON: If the intelligence had been right, would there have been an Iraq war?
    BUSH: Yes, because Saddam Hussein was unwilling to let the inspectors go in to determine whether or not the U.N. resolutions were being upheld. In other words, if he had had weapons of mass destruction, would there have been a war? Absolutely.
    GIBSON: No, if you had known he didn’t.
    BUSH: Oh, I see what you’re saying. You know, that’s an interesting question. That is a do-over that I can’t do. It’s hard for me to speculate.

  149. 149
    Onihanzo says:

    beat me to it, cleek.

  150. 150

    That’s not what I said at all. Are you illiterate? I said President Bush believed at the time that they existed, therefore he didn’t lie when he said so. Information we have in 2008 has no bearing on what Bush and the intelligence community believed in 2002. This should be obvious to anyone with an IQ above room temperature.

    Sorry, no! Bush and Cheney (along with Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, et al) were looking for a war with Iraq before they even got into office. The information they received was conjured by people who were involved in the plot. The inspectors found no WMD. Valerie Plame’s husband Joe Wilson attested that there was no sale of yellowcake in Niger. The people on the ground were not seeing the evidence that was making it’s way into Bush’s briefings, because it wasn’t true. It was never true, it was a ploy to gin up a war with Iraq and you fell for it. You were propagandized. Sorry to inform you, but, you were duped.

    You haven’t read the mission statement (*pdf file) from the PNAC (link) that was signed by Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz before Bush was even in office, a request to invade Iraq which was sent to Clinton?

  151. 151
    USAPatriot says:

    Broken, if you’re going to tell a lie, you ignore the consensus view of the intelligence community and cherry-pick the footnotes of reports after the fact that disagree with the consensus. The consensus view was the majority view, by definition. In any case, believing the majority view may make one wrong, it does not make one a liar.

  152. 152
    USAPatriot says:

    "Saddam Hussein was unwilling to let the inspectors go in to determine whether or not the U.N. resolutions were being upheld."

    That is true. Saddam did not allow full, unfettered access to his facilities. The fact he allowed them into the country is not sufficient, obviously.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII,

    Your ability to regurgitate all that nonsense is unimpressive. You must believe the Iraqis were in Niger to buy goats. LOL

  153. 153

    Whether they were wrong and whether they lied are two entirely different things.

    Yes. They were wrong, and they lied. Two different things.

    They are hired to do two things, be right, and tell the truth. They failed on both counts.

  154. 154
    USAPatriot says:

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII,

    When Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998, was he a dupe of President Bush too? LOL

  155. 155

    Bush is the one who halted the weapons inspectors. They were there, they were doing their job, they were not finding anything. Bush gave them a short period of time to leave before he bombed Iraq. Bush stopped the weapons inspectors from finishing the job.

  156. 156
    USAPatriot says:

    No, the CIA was wrong, they didn’t lie.

  157. 157
    Comrade Stuck says:

    @AJStrata:

    You should know I have been hammering the Obama Birth Certificate folks bloody senseless on their nonsense. I call them the Cult of the COLB for good reason, none of it positive to them.

    So did Moe, when Larry and Curly were misbehaving. Do you want a medal Moe?

    The point of my post should have been summarized as ‘severe disappointment’

    There is no return or refund for your Obama Poms Poms. Just "appreciation" for your concern will be offered.

    Well, I must be onto something given the vile bile erupting around here

    Noted. I’ve been trying to straighten out these animals, but they are just too uncivilized. I think Dale Carnegie would help, but nobody listens to me and my stellar example of respectful debate.

  158. 158

    You must believe the Iraqis were in Niger to buy goats. LOL

    Whatever. The story was pimped as a nuclear threat, and there was no nuclear threat.

  159. 159
    USAPatriot says:

    No, Saddam stopped the inspectors from doing their job. He never cooperated fully.

  160. 160

    You must believe the Iraqis were in Niger to buy goats. LOL

    Prove they were buying yellowcake or STFU.

  161. 161
    maya says:

    USAPatriot,
    I always thought it was rather dubious that the decision to invade Iraq was instigated by Tenet’s "slam dunk" comment. Picture this:
    Pres.Bush: "So tell me, Bob, do we really have all the facts to launch an invasion"?
    Tenet: "Slam (standing up and gesticulating the act) Dunk!"

    That would not prompt any additional question on the part of Bush, like: "WTF does that mean, Bob? This is serious business, going to war you know. This is not a frat party or a basketball game. Tell me again, with an intelligent response this time, Bob, do we or don’t we have all the facts needed to proceed with the invasion?"

    But, of course, this is Bush we’re talking about and Bush in a culture that is completely guided by sports metaphors.

    And, as we all know now, the invasion has been a home run.

  162. 162
    USAPatriot says:

    The evidence shows Saddam wished to restart his WMD programs as soon as he could. There is no threat today, true, because President Bush eliminated the threat.

  163. 163
    AnneLaurie says:

    "bald-faced lies like "We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories," from Bush"

    Not a lie, a statement he believed to be true at the time he uttered it.

    USAPatsy, remember what your momma always warned you? Keep wanking off like that, you’ll go blind… and stupid, too. "We" had not — have not — found WMDs or bio-labs in Saddam! Hussein’s! Iraq!, even though a lot of American soldiers plus Geraldo Rivera were looking really, really hard for them. If "We found WMDs" is really "a statement he believed to be true at the time he uttered it", Dubya is delusional. On the other hand, if you believe that Dubya actually "believed [this] to be true", perhaps *you* are delusional.

  164. 164

    When Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998, was he a dupe of President Bush too? LOL

    Bush wasn’t president in 1998. We had no fly zones, we still had skirmishes from the previous Iraq war that Bush’s father oversaw. Clinton was doing his job. Clinton didn’t bomb Iraq to oblivion and announce they were a nuclear threat, only Bush and his cronies did that. I might add, 9/11 hadn’t occurred yet. And, pray tell, why is it that the terrorists of 9/11 were Saudi, but we had to bomb Iraq?

  165. 165
    Onihanzo says:

    Your ability to regurgitate all that nonsense is unimpressive. You must believe the Iraqis were in Niger to buy goats. LOL

    Oh jesus christ, USAPatriot. Don’t tell me you still believe in the Iraq/Niger uranium story. Surely to god you’re not that fucking thick.

  166. 166
    jcricket says:

    I think this is a case of trying to shoot the moon attempt on the part of the GOP. They’re hoping to take Obama down and kill all the momentum the Dems have built up in this "2nd wave" election. So, much like the Wright and Ayers accusations, they go off half-cocked (there’s a premature ejac joke in here somewhere).

    I think they are doing this because: A) Obama’s competency and ability to play long-ball frightens the bejeesus out of them; B) They know that if Dems get shit passed, and it helps people out (even just enough to prevent the recession from becoming a Depression), the Republicans will lose big again in 2010 and 2012.

    Luckily for us, Obama is still reasonably unflappable, and (for now) corruption free. I guarantee the end of this will be the election of another Democrat from IL, a governor going to jail, and Obama gaining additional reputation points as stuff like "fuck [Rahm/Obama] all he wants to give me is appreciation. Fuck that" comes out in the end.

    Remember the problem with the shoot-the-moon strategy. Unless you actually get all the bad cards, you jut get a horribly negative score attached to you.

  167. 167
    dnA says:

    @USAPatriot:

    It’s really not difficult to understand the difference between Obama speaking directly to Blago and his staff speaking to Blago, only by making "I" into a "we" can you stretch that into a lie.

    Of course, it’s probably a waste of time for me to point that out since looking at the rest of the thread USAPatriot is now back to arguing about whether or not there were WMD’s in Iraq and whether Bush manipulated the case for war.

    Unfortunately, the liberals on this thread refuse to listen to the truth. It’s just like how liberals still try to deny that Jefferson Davis freed the slaves and Richard Nixon signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

  168. 168
    USAPatriot says:

    maya,

    No one has claimed that "slam dunk" was the entire conversation. Are you really that stupid, or are you putting on an act?

    Circvs: No one said they actually bought the yellow cake. It was either goats or yellow cake they were after. You think Saddam sent people there to inquire about goats, that’s your problem. LOL

  169. 169
    Ed Marshall says:

    I know it’s like five years too late and a hundred thousad or so corpses later, but yellow cake never made any sense, Iraq has Uranium deposits. Further, what you are talking about was a crude forgery complete with featuring an out of date signiture from the Nigerian side.

    The Bush admin knew this and tossed it out anyway, at the most generous they thought it was "truthy" and for the less generous it was a lie.

  170. 170
    USAPatriot says:

    "USAPatsy, remember what your momma always warned you? Keep wanking off like that, you’ll go blind… and stupid, too. "

    This is exactly the caliber of "argument" normal people expect on left-wing blogs.

  171. 171

    The evidence shows Saddam wished to restart his WMD programs as soon as he could. There is no threat today, true, because President Bush eliminated the threat.

    Bullshit. Where are the WMD’s that Saddam was producing? Without such, you cannot make this statement and make it stick. You’d like it to be true, Bush wanted you to believe it was true, but you don’t know, and there is absolutely NO PROOF of such a thing. You are lying now.

  172. 172
    USAPatriot says:

    Ed,

    The forged documents weren’t the basis for the claim that Saddam was seeking uranium in Africa.

  173. 173

    Circvs: No one said they actually bought the yellow cake. It was either goats or yellow cake they were after. You think Saddam sent people there to inquire about goats, that’s your problem. LOL

    I think you don’t know shit about who was where and for what reason, or even if Saddam sent anyone to Niger at all.

  174. 174
    AnneLaurie says:

    The evidence shows Saddam wished to restart his WMD programs as soon as he could.

    The "evidence" shows that I wish to restart looking like Scarlett Johansen’s twin sister. The objective facts that I never shared much more in common with ScarJo than double-X chromosomes, and that I’m not doing anything to obviate being overweight, out of shape, and postmenopausal doesn’t keep me from "wishing" to "restart" my imaginary youthful hawtness, does it?

  175. 175

    No, the CIA was wrong, they didn’t lie.

    Sure, whatever. Write a history book, and we’ll take a look at it.

    In between halfassed trolls, I mean.

  176. 176
    USAPatriot says:

    Circvs,

    "Where are the WMD’s that Saddam was producing?"

    I didn’t say he was producing anything. "Wished to restart" obviously refers to the future tense, to anyone who isn’t illiterate, that is.

  177. 177

    It was either goats or yellow cake they were after.

    You are going to need some Preparation H to sooth your rectum from all the stuff you are pulling out of your ass there, pal.

  178. 178
    USAPatriot says:

    yep, you lefties sure are mature and profound: "You are going to need some Preparation H to sooth your rectum from all the stuff you are pulling out of your ass there, pal."

  179. 179
    El Cid says:

    @Ed Marshall:

    At the very time they were making the "OMG Niger-yellowcake" sham argument, Iraq possessed not just ‘some’ yellowcake (low-grade) uranium, but thousands and thousands and thousands of tons of low grade uranium.

    Thousands and thousands and thousands of tons of it.

    And what they lacked was not more sh*tty low-grade uranium, but the technology and technique to process it. The same way that, um, Niger, which has the deposits in the first place, has no nuclear weapons program, which if all it took was boatloads of yellowcake uranium, then, hey, done.

    The Niger facility was French-run and French-guarded. So, you know, there’s that.

    Furthermore, the US & UK completely controlled Iraqi skies, so the hundreds of tons of low-grade uranium would have to be trucked out of Niger to Iraq.

    And every single person in the media that wanted to know that either knew it or easily could have. They just didn’t care.

    Even without the inept forgery of Niger documents (probably involving U.S. neo-cons and their connections in right wing Italian intelligence), it was on its face the plainest and stupidest scam possible in these circumstances.

  180. 180
    smiley says:

    This thread is in need of an intervention. I am, therefore stepping in to kill this thread (I seem to have a talent for that).

    STOP IT! Nobody’s convincing anyone of anything. Just stop it. Walk away. Live to fight another day. Move along…

  181. 181

    "Wished to restart" obviously refers

    Obviously refers to the weakest excuse for a trillion dollar war, invasion, occupation and reconstruction in history.

    Last time I looked, Bush’s approval rating was somewhere down there with Blagojevich’s rating. I think the people have a pretty good idea now what the real value of the war is to this country.

    But please, write your own book. Pimp it up. Make yourself famous.

  182. 182
    Onihanzo says:

    @smiley: Killjoy.

  183. 183

    Nobody’s convincing anyone of any thing.

    Oh fuck, not another one of those idiots who think that the agenda here is to convince anyone of anything?

    yep, you lefties sure are mature

    You righties sure are sociopathic lying motherfuckers.

    Win!

  184. 184
    USAPatriot says:

    Circvs:

    "I think you don’t know shit about who was where and for what reason, or even if Saddam sent anyone to Niger at all."

    Not true:

    "A former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, told Wilson that in June 1999, a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations." Mayaki, knowing how few commodities for export are produced by impoverished Niger, interpreted that to mean that Saddam was seeking uranium"

  185. 185
    AhabTRuler, V says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: I would love to not read that book!

  186. 186
    USAPatriot says:

    Yet more projection: "You righties sure are sociopathic lying motherfuckers."

  187. 187
    Onihanzo says:

    "Wished to restart" obviously refers to the future tense, to anyone who isn’t illiterate, that is.

    Ah PK Dick. If only you had been around to see this.

  188. 188

    "Wished to restart" obviously refers to the future tense, to anyone who isn’t illiterate, that is.

    Suggesting a war as the proper response to some lunatic’s wishful thinking isn’t exactly earning you a PhD here, butthead.

    How many tinhorn dictators are there out there who wish they could have a nuclear weapons program? Shall we make a list and go invade all those countries?

    First, you are going to need to bring back the draft.

  189. 189
    smiley says:

    @smiley: On a related note, has anyone see the new show on TNT? Leverage? I thought the first episode was good but the second one had a bunch of improbable shit happen in the last 15 minutes. Kinda ruined it for me.

  190. 190

    Yet more projection: "You righties sure are sociopathic lying motherfuckers."

    So now you are down to "So’s your old man!" as a retort?

    Pretty early collapse for such a thunderous troll beginning.

    How long did that last? Two hours?

    ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    Next.

    No, do tell, you really thought you’d just stop by and sell a few copies of "The World Is Better Off Without Saddam" on the way to the liquor store? Or …. ?

  191. 191
    Laura W says:

    @smiley: Do you happen to know the origin of the word "umpteen"?

  192. 192
    TR says:

    Yet more projection: "You righties sure are sociopathic lying motherfuckers."

    Right, the sociopathic left has had such a hard-on for war.

  193. 193
    kormgar says:

    My god USA Patriot….I’ve been following the thread trying to determine whether or not you are actually serious…I figured that you had to be trolling for flamebait…but no…you really are this bullheadly stupid.

    That’s cool if that’s your choice, but it’s no way to go through life son.

    Linguistics 101…Your first problem appears to be an inability to understand the word "I".

    I is a singular noun that refers to the individual making the assertion. If Obama says "I had no contact with the governor" in a response to a question, it has a single meaning, that he had no direct and personal contact with the governor, no more and no less.

    You, on the other hand, appear to believe that I is plural. In truth, that says some rather amusing things about your likely state of mind, but at least you are never going to be lonely. So in your magical land of fairy make believe, I morphs into a veritable legion of imaginary friends and associates, extending far beyond the limits of your own singular (and unfortunate) personality.

  194. 194
    USAPatriot says:

    Saddam had scientists, equipment, experience, etc. Calling his intentions mere "wishful thinking" is absurd.

  195. 195
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Laura W: lolz

  196. 196
    USAPatriot says:

    Yet more projection: "You righties sure are sociopathic lying motherfuckers."

    Right, the sociopathic left has had such a hard-on for war.

    Quick, point out the word "war" in the first, quoted sentence! LOL

  197. 197
    USAPatriot says:

    I can remember when some on the left used to pretend to care about human rights. Now they spend their time enthusiastically defending former murderous dictator Saddam Hussein. Really pathetic.

  198. 198

    "A former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, told Wilson that in June 1999, a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations." Mayaki, knowing how few commodities for export are produced by impoverished Niger, interpreted that to mean that Saddam was seeking uranium"

    Excuse me, but that is not proof. that’s assumption, conjecture, postulation, speculation, opinion, theory, hearsay, NOT FACT!

  199. 199

    Do you happen to know the origin of the word "umpteen"?

    I think it’s the nth root of a shitload.

  200. 200
    smiley says:

    @Laura W: Um, no I don’t and I have no idea what the fucking fuckity fuck you’re fucking talking about. (Fucking really — fuck). Please let me know.

  201. 201
    Dave C says:

    This thread is the equivalent of arguing with creationists. Waste of time, if amusing.

  202. 202
    Onihanzo says:

    I can remember when some on the left used to pretend to care about human rights. Now they spend their time enthusiastically defending former murderous dictator Saddam Hussein. Really pathetic.

    You forgot to add "torture-loving" in there. **wink**

  203. 203
    kormgar says:

    USAPatriot…

    "Saddam had scientists, equipment, experience, etc. Calling his intentions mere "wishful thinking" is absurd."

    You’re kidding, right? Post-invasion investigation revealed that he had no actual WMD program at the time of the invasion, and that in fact the UN inspection regime had worked.

    Now, there were plenty of neocon nutjobs (like yourself?) who publicly shared their masturbatory fantasies about how incredibly dangerous Saddam was and about the clear and present dangers of allowing him to remain in power. (don’t misunderstand…Saddam was a douchebag, but then again, so’s GWB). Then, in these fantasies, our big sweaty muscular soldiers would climb into their big sexy machines and drop big manly bombs and Blow Shit Up in a big explosive climax that would impregnate the entire middle east with a bouncing baby boy called democracy.

    So yeah…wishful thinking

  204. 204

    I can remember when some on the left used to pretend to care about human rights. Now they spend their time enthusiastically defending former murderous dictator Saddam Hussein. Really pathetic.

    I don’t think he was a wonderful person, but, he had NO WMD and he was killed for having WMD when he had NO WMD. He was a human being, and he was wronged.

  205. 205
    Laura W says:

    @smiley: You kinda fuckin’ had to be there.
    Or not.
    You are just fucking lucky you weren’t there.
    Also.

  206. 206

    Calling his intentions mere "wishful thinking" is absurd.

    No, actually, it’s fact.

    On Sunday’s "NBC Nightly News," correspondent Pete Williams previewed details of a new book, The Terrorist Watch: Inside the Desperate Race to Stop the Next Attack, by Ronald Kessler, in which Kessler revealed information obtained by the an FBI agent who extensively interviewed Saddam Hussein and found, among other things, that the former Iraqi leader had deliberately tried to "fool the U.S." into believing he had weapons of mass destruction because "he wanted Iranian leaders to believe that he had nuclear and biological weapons."

    It was all a ruse to worry the Iranians. I guess he didn’t figure that the insane Bush would come after him on the strength of a price quote for yellowcake. Apparently our government was more easily fooled than he bargained for.

  207. 207

    Waste of time, if amusing.

    It’s a slow news day. We are 90-120 days out from the complete financial and economic collapse of the country, and we are bored today.

  208. 208

    Now, there were plenty of neocon nutjobs (like yourself?) who publicly shared their masturbatory fantasies about how incredibly dangerous Saddam was and about the clear and present dangers of allowing him to remain in power. (don’t misunderstand…Saddam was a douchebag, but then again, so’s GWB). Then, in these fantasies, our big sweaty muscular soldiers would climb into their big sexy machines and drop big manly bombs and Blow Shit Up in a big explosive climax that’s impregnate the entire middle east with the baby of democracy.

    At the cost of many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, but, nevermind them, because they’re Muslims, therefore USAP just KNOWS they deserved to die.

    Fuck!

  209. 209
    Onihanzo says:

    @smiley: Stop thieving all of my best lines!

  210. 210
    kormgar says:

    Laura,

    Isn’t Umpteen old WWI military slang? Don’t tell me you were there, in WWI?

    You are quite spry for your age :)

  211. 211
    USAPatriot says:

    Not true: "Post-invasion investigation revealed that he had no actual WMD program at the time of the invasion, and that in fact the inspector regime had worked."

    "Now, there were plenty of neocon nutjobs (like yourself?) who publicly shared their masturbatory fantasies about how incredibly dangerous Saddam was and about the clear and present dangers of allowing him to remain in power."

    Yes, "neocon nutjobs" like Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, etc. etc…

    "Anybody who says there is no working relationship between al Qaeda and Iraqi intelligence going back to the early ’90s–they can only say that if they’re illiterate. This is a slam dunk."
    — James Woolsey, CIA director under President Bill Clinton, November 2003

    "Saddam’s goal … is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed"
    — Madeline Albright, Sec. of State under President Bill Clinton, 1998

    "(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983"
    — Clinton National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

    "Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don’t have the judgment to be president or the credibility to be elected president."
    — Senator John Kerry, December 16, 2001

    "in the post-Sept. 11 world, the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable and that his refusal to allow in inspectors is in blatant violation of the United Nations 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power."
    — Senator John Kerry, Sept. 6, 2002

    "There is also no question that Saddam Hussein continues to pursue weapons of mass destruction, and his success can threaten both our interests in the region and our security at home."
    — Senator John Kerry, Sept. 6, 2002

    "If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community’s already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act."
    — Senator John Kerry, Sept. 6, 2002

    "In 1991, the world collectively made a judgment that this man [Saddam Hussein] should not have weapons of mass destruction. And we are here today in the year 2002 with an uninspected 4-year interval during which time we know through intelligence he not only has kept them, but he continues to grow them."

    "I believe the record of Saddam Hussein’s ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary. The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new."
    — Senator John Kerry, October 9, 2002

    "Saddam Hussein’s regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal."
    — Senator John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

    "Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. We know he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
    — Former Vice President Al Gore, September 2002

    "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein’s regime poses a threat to his people, his neighbours and the world at large because of his biological and chemical weapons and his nuclear programme. They admitted to vast stores of biological and chemical stocks in 1995. In 1998, as the Prime Minister’s speech a few days ago made clear, even more were documented."
    — Former President Bill Clinton, October 2002

    "The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow."
    — President Bill Clinton, 1998

    "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons"
    — Senator Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

    "Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt," Hillary Clinton told the Senate the day she announced her support for the war.

    "There’s a very clear history and intention of not only building stockpiles and adding to what they already have of biological and chemical weaponry, but attempting to obtain nuclear capacity"
    — Senator Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

    There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.
    — Senator Jay Rockefeller, October 10, 2002

    "We stopped the fighting [in 1991] based on an agreement that Iraq would take steps to assure the world that it would not engage in further aggression and that it would destroy its weapons of mass destruction. It has refused to take those steps. That refusal constitutes a breach of the armistice which renders it void and justifies resumption of the armed conflict."
    — Senator Harry Reid, October, 2002

  212. 212
    El Cid says:

    Saddam already had thousands and thousands and thousands of tons of yellowcake uranium. Anyone arguing that getting more from Niger would mean the slightest bit of squat is a bald-faced liar. They know better. They know that their fantasies of the Niger deal were unrelated to Iraq’s possession already of thousands and thousands and thousands of tons of uranium.

  213. 213
    kormgar says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:

    Yeah, that and umpteen other things kept me up the last few years, as a president who betrayed both our constitution and the very fabric of our nation was not only re-elected but cheered on and deified by a significant chunk of the US population.

    It filled my soul with a darkness that I feared would never wash away. At least the batshit insane 29% has finally been marginalized. I’ve got high hopes for Obama, but I’m going to be watching him like a hawk…we simply cannot afford any more imperial presidencies.

  214. 214
    smiley says:

    You know, when you see these four letters together enough, F-U-C- K, they don’t seem like a real word anymore.

    Ever had the experience when you write/type a word and it just doesn’t seem right?

    BTW, I heard the word "asshole" on cable TV recently. It joins shit and bullshit as words I never thought I’d hear.

  215. 215

    "We stopped the fighting [in 1991] based on an agreemen

    Nice list. Turns out, they were all wrong.

    And Bush lied about the yellowcake threat and its true import in order to sell the war.

    Nobody who knows the real challenges in building a nuclear program would be flipping out over a price quote for yellowcake. Not even the stupidest guy in the administration could be that easily fooled. But that didn’t stop them from putting the line into the SOTU speech and scaring people who don’t know the facts.

    That’s called lying.

  216. 216

    It joins shit and bullshit as words I never thought I’d hear.

    Why not? Here you are typing them on a blog.

    Does your mother know you have the computer turned on?

  217. 217
    USAPatriot says:

    "as a president who betrayed both our constitution and the very fabric of our nation was not only re-elected but cheered on and deified by a significant chunk of the US population."

    But enough about Bill Clinton…

  218. 218

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: No, He was executed for his past genocides.

    The people of Iraq were wronged by us. Saddam Hussein? Not so much.

  219. 219
    John Cole says:

    I can remember when some on the left used to pretend to care about human rights. Now they spend their time enthusiastically defending former murderous dictator Saddam Hussein. Really pathetic.

    Funny you should mention him. We even botched his execution, turning him over to a bunch of religious thugs, further inflaming the sectarian strife, and for good measure, botched his half-brother’s execution, ripping his head off in the effort.

    Yay, team!

    In fact, Patriot, you really have to look far and wide for something about Iraq we have not screwed up.

  220. 220

    Oh yeah, I get it, gather a bunch of quotes that are at least 5 or 6 years old from Democrats who have no fucking backbone and don’t really represent the people very well and then call that "game over".

    NOT!

    Impressive display of copy and paste, doesn’t prove much. The ploy that BushCo pulled convinced a lot of people in Washington. Many retractions and books have been written since then. The fact is the noise machine sold us into a war that we should have never been in. Many people, like you, were duped. Many of those people no longer believe the lie, you’re one of the few who still does. Poor thing, I feel sorry for you living in a fantasy world and having no clue about reality. Too bad.

  221. 221
    USAPatriot says:

    Nice list. Turns out, they were all wrong. And Bush lied…

    All those Democrats said the same thing, but Bush lied… Nice standard you have there. LOL

  222. 222
    Onihanzo says:

    All your favorite hits from 2004! Act now and we’ll also send a DVD copy of this stalwart comedy gem!

  223. 223
    USAPatriot says:

    demimondian,

    The people of Iraq were liberated by us.

  224. 224
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    You really are one for quote mining, ain’t ya. That’s cool…why expend actual effort thinking when you can pull up a list of ultimately irrelevant quotes.

    And, btw, there are plenty of Democrats who I lump together into the neocon douchebag category, so don’t think you’re scoring any points by focusing on them.

    But, and here’s the thing that those quotes don’t even begin to address…there was no WMD program in Iraq at the time of the invasion.

    So, for starters, any quote from any time prior to late 2002 is obviously completely irrelevant. Please tell me that you understand this…see there is a thing called "time" and it passes…and things that exist one year may not exist in another year…so a quote about Saddam from the 90’s in support of sanctions is completely irrelevant to a discussion about a pre-emptive invasion in early 2003. This point’s about as subtle as a mack truck so I hope you got it.

    As far as the intelligence goes, we now know that there was considerable cherry picking by political appointees within the CIA as well as the cabinet. It’s a remarkable thing, but when you pre-emptively discard all contrary data, you can prove anything. Many congresscritters assumed that the president wasn’t actually committing treason, and took him at his word. More fools they, hey?

  225. 225

    But enough about Bill Clinton…

    Ah, so this is about Clinton now?

    Let me know when we get all the way back to Grover Cleveland.

  226. 226
    El Cid says:

    By the way, I was one of those fringe loonies who also disagreed with Bill Clinton and the overall hawk policy of starving Iraqis via the sanctions, and frequent bombing. But then, I wouldn’t have been one of the hawks supporting the Ba’ath party early on, any way, so that they could slaughter socialists and other democratic nationalists.

  227. 227
    Onihanzo says:

    BTW, I heard the word "asshole" on cable TV recently. It joins shit and bullshit as words I never thought I’d hear.

    On cable TV? And you’re serious?

  228. 228

    No, He was executed for his past genocides.

    Actually demi, that was a bait and switch. We didn’t go into Iraq based on his treatment of his people, we went into Iraq based on WMD’s, that is the reason we also killed him. You want to believe the bait and switch story, have at it, but don’t pretend for me, I know better. The GOP didn’t kill Saddam to defend a bunch of Muslims, they hate Muslims, the didn’t care an ounce about those people. They hated Saddam and they wanted him dead because of 9/11 and a nuclear threat that was never real.

  229. 229

    @USAPatriot: Feh. At least AJS believed what he wrote — you don’t.

  230. 230
    colleeniem says:

    Holy crap, USA Patriot. Did you read the aptly named "The Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the US regarding the Weapons of Mass Destruction" report to the president published March 31st 2005? No? Apparently neither did the president. You will note the many times the NIger story was debunked as a legitimate act of obtaining nuclear materials within that document. Its a little policy wonky, and long (593 pgs), but I think the words are small enough for you. Until you do your research, thanks for playing. It’s available at http://www.wmd.gov.
    And personal desires of a crackpot dictator to obtain nuclear weapons (in the face of evidence that he was unable to gain said weapons) as an excuse for pre-emptive war is SUPER EPIC FAIL.
    Good god man.

  231. 231

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: All grand and good, Rome. But it doesn’t change the truth of what I wrote, which is that he was executed for crimes he did commit, and for which he deserved death.

  232. 232
    USAPatriot says:

    The cherry-picking is being done by Bush’s critics on the left.

    You quote Bush from 2002 to call him a liar, then when quotes from Democrats saying the same thing in the same year are posted, it’s suddenly irrelevant? Such blatant hypocrisy!

  233. 233
    Broken says:

    Broken, if you’re going to tell a lie, you ignore the consensus view of the intelligence community and cherry-pick the footnotes of reports after the fact that disagree with the consensus. The consensus view was the majority view, by definition. In any case, believing the majority view may make one wrong, it does not make one a liar.

    USAPatriot, so we are going to play a game of "I know you are, but what am I"? I give you examples of how the intel was cherry-picked, so now you accuse me of cherry-picking?

    The only "concensus" concluding IRAQ had ongoing WMD programs was Cheney’s, WINPAC at CIA controlled by John Bolton’s guy, and the DIA guys controlled by Rumsfeld. In other words, the Bush political appointees.

    The career intelligence people at State INR, CIA operations, and Dept of Energy all disagreed with the Bush appointees and therefore ignored. Even though the garbage intelligence came entirely from Cheney’s, Bolton’s and Rumsfeld’s people, the intelligence "failure" was blamed on the intelligence professionals who disagreed with them.

    This is worse than a simple lie, it’s lying and then blaming (and punishing as with Plame) those who told the truth.

  234. 234
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Oh please. I have an amazing amount of contempt for Clinton (lazy unfocused SOB that he was) but he ran a fucking clean administration.

    Don’t believe me…consider this. Clinton ran the single most intensively investigated administration in this nation’s history. Guess how many aids and appointees in his administration were indicted for malfeasance in the actual performance of their duties.

    Give up?

    Not a one.

    But please, go ahead and cheer on a GWB, after all, he only tore up the Geneva Convention, detained folks for any reason with neither charges nor evidence, oversaw corruption on a massive and unprecedented scale, approved of torture (which, btw, is the main reason that Saddam was a douchebag) and so forth…

    Clinton…I’m not a fan. GWB…why the fuck is this criminal still walking the streets.

  235. 235

    The people of Iraq were liberated by us.

    Oh, is that what you call it? Liberated? We bombed their land into oblivion, took away their infrastructure, their livelihood, their lifestyle, and killed hundreds of thousands of their people, to the point that many left the country because it wasn’t safe to live in, but they should thank us because now they are free.

    Fuck you!

  236. 236
    USAPatriot says:

    Broken,

    Stop lying. Tenet was a Clinton appointee.

  237. 237
    USAPatriot says:

    Clinton ran a clean administration? ROFLMAO!!!

  238. 238
    smiley says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: Yes, she does. But for someone who named her son smiley? No mercy.
    @USAPatriot: This guy/gal has been lying in wait to unleash this bomb since… 2003. Good work, my man/woman. Good work. (Shit. I can’t resist either!)

  239. 239
    USAPatriot says:

    Clinton was impeached.

  240. 240

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:

    Oh, is that what you call it? Liberated? We bombed their land into oblivion, took away their infrastructure, their livelihood, their lifestyle, and killed hundreds of thousands of their people, to the point that many left the country because it wasn’t safe to live in, but they should thank us because now they are free.

    Yes, well it’s also been 5 years and they have yet to really do anything, so fuck them really. The Bosnians were so much more proactive in rebuilding their country.

  241. 241
    Onihanzo says:

    he was executed for crimes he did commit, and for which he deserved death.

    Which makes the emulation of those crimes by Americans all the more nauseating.

  242. 242
    Laura W says:

    @kormgar: If you knew this without suffering through last night’s open thread, DING DING DING. I woke this morning to find this posted by Tatoosydney:

    My Shorter Oxford says that "umpty" is a slang term used by WWI morse code signallers for a dash (dating from 1917), which came to mean an indefinite number, and then transmogrified into the variants "umpteen", "umpteenth" and "umptieth".

    I found that very interesting indeed, and I am grateful to him for researching it on my lazy behalf. I also learned from others in the thread that is probably semi-regional, and no doubt generational.
    I couldn’t hang around any longer because I was tired and felt as if my innocent quest for knowledge had been defiled in that thread. (And I am not referring to the baby oil/cayenne pepper rub down naughty parts.)

  243. 243

    All grand and good, Rome. But it doesn’t change the truth of what I wrote, which is that he was executed for crimes he did commit, and for which he deserved death.

    Believe what you want to believe, and remember, I’m not a proponent of the death penalty (interesting that as a Christian, you are).

  244. 244
    USAPatriot says:

    @colleeniem: Wrong, the British stand by their intel on Saddam/uranium/Africa.

  245. 245
    Broken says:

    USAPatriot,

    Are you a Creationist by any chance? Just wondering…

  246. 246
    USAPatriot says:

    @Onihanzo: Slandering your own country is sickening.

  247. 247
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Look it up. Jeez man, I get that you want to hold onto your precious beliefs, but they make you stupid.

    Or maybe your stupid is what makes you stupid…nah, I still believe that most folks have the capacity to destupidify themselves.

    It takes work man, but it can be done. Drop your ideological blinders man, make an effort to see the world as it is, not as your preconceptions would have you believe. Yes, I get it, rejecting information that’s contrary to your tightly held beliefs gives you that neat endorphin rush like that priest who told you "good job son" as you wiped off your chin.

    But make an effort man. This is just gotten silly.

  248. 248
    colleeniem says:

    Wait…what?
    That is your answer?
    Now I feel stupid for playing.

  249. 249

    Yes, well it’s also been 5 years and they have yet to really do anything, so fuck them really. The Bosnians were so much more proactive in rebuilding their country.

    And if the Chinese were here and bombing America into oblivion, would you be working on infrastructure or trying to get them to go fucking home?

    Different when it’s your own country, isn’t it?

  250. 250
    smiley says:

    never mind

  251. 251

    I found that very interesting indeed, and I am grateful to him for researching it on my lazy behalf.

    No offense, but are you aware that you might be the only American alive over the age of twelve who hasn’t been familiar with "umpteen" and its general use for the last umpteen years?

    That’s, you know, more than twenty.

    Don’t answer, I really don’t want to hear how I must be picking on you because you aren’t a guy. Of course, if you were a guy, you’d know what umpteen really means. It’s a secret guy thing.

  252. 252
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Ah…well then…you must be sick all the time. You seem to have a deep seated hatred for the core principles of this nation, which points to a fundamental lack of patriotism, although I am sure that you put on the act of waving your flag and pretending to care.

    But you seem to be one of those folks who hates many of your fellow Americans, and who hates the freedoms which our progenitors fought and died to first establish and then defend.

    So I ask you. Why do you hate America so much? And why do you spend so much time pretending the opposite.

    Is that why you include patriot in your name? Because you keep forgetting and need to constantly remind yourself. Is it like a ritual. Wake up, remember to be patriotic, drink coffee, remember to be patriotic, ad infinitum? The second you forget you begin spewing your America hating filth…

    I get it now. We’re through with you.

  253. 253

    Don’t answer, I really don’t want to hear how I must be picking on you because you aren’t a guy. Of course, if you were a guy, you’d know what umpteen really means. It’s a secret guy thing.

    Hmmmm, is that why my mother used that word at least three times as much as my father?

    @kormgar: excellent post, I agree wholeheartedly!

  254. 254

    Hmmmm, is that why my mother used that word at least three times as much as my father?

    He may have revealed the manly secret to her, in a moment of weakness.

    People are not perfect, these things happen.

  255. 255

    Slandering your own country is sickening.

    Defending the torturing, corruption and lies this country is currently involved in is what’s sickening.

  256. 256
    Broken says:

    USAPatriot says
    ""Broken,

    Stop lying. Tenet was a Clinton appointee.""

    Now you’re making even less sense, if that is possible. Did I say anything about Tenet? Tenet was not an intel source. Tenet was a political appointee, not career intelligence.

    However, Tenet objected to the Niger uranium nonsense and even deleted references to it in several speeches Bush was to give on Iraq. He sent memos to Rice warning her the Niger stuff was BS. Despite all his warnings, the Niger garbage still made it into Bush’s infamous "16 words". Naturally, Tenet was the fall guy who took the blame for the very stuff he warned was bullshit! At least he got a "Medal of Freedom" for taking the bullet for Bush.

  257. 257
    Laura W says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: My question was about the origin and use of the word. I’ve probably heard it more than twice in my tender years, but reading it on this blog, in the context of John speaking for his mom (who I assume lives in PA), reminded me of my PA born and raised grandmother. I honestly can not recall hearing it used much in other places in my life. Surely I have, but nonetheless, reading it here struck some chord in me.

    I really had no idea it traced back to WWI morse code. I find that interesting.
    I have no problem explaining myself, once, when asked. But when the intention of the questioning is to taunt or ridicule, I lose interest. This is the second time I’ve explained myself on this issue, and it’s one too many. Honestly. Is there nothing else to do but fight on this blog?

  258. 258
    bago says:

    @USAPatriot: Especially when it’s deserved. I mean look at you slandering your own country vis-a-vis Clinton! It’s truly sickening. How can you call yourself a patriot when you slander your own commander in chief like that?

  259. 259
    Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse says:

    Teach, having long monitored your silliness, I think you should just look forward to every day you enjoy life without accidentally sticking a fork in an outlet while standing in a puddle of your own drool.

    I love you, John Cole.

  260. 260

    He may have revealed the manly secret to her, in a moment of weakness.

    People are not perfect, these things happen.

    Hmm, I think you’re making this up. Clearly it is a womanly secret that was accidentally given to men, based on the very fact that only women have the capacity to remember "umpteenth" events. Men, not so much! ;)

    By the way, 672 – 5 = 667 (would you like to reveal to me in a moment of weakness when I can stop counting?).

  261. 261

    Is there nothing else to do but fight on this blog?

    Well, unless you brought a dish …….

  262. 262

    This is the second time I’ve explained myself on this issue

    Take it from me, never explain yourself. Explain the other person. That gets them riled up, and you win.

    If that doesn’t work, put salt in their sugar bowl.

  263. 263
    kormgar says:

    @Broken:

    As I recall Tenet was appointed by Clinton but continued to serve for several years under Bush.

    Not sure if it actually means anything as GWB chose to retain him in the position, which is essentially a de facto re-appointment. So effectively he was a Clinton and then a Bush appointee.

    Not sure what the relevance was either way, as you said, he was political rather than career.

    BTW…am I the only one who thinks it is completely batshit insane that we put political appointees in charge of every agency instead of, you know…people with experience and expertise. Just saying…

  264. 264
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Laura W:

    I couldn’t hang around any longer because I was tired and felt as if my innocent quest for knowledge had been defiled in that thread. (And I am not referring to the baby oil/cayenne pepper rub down naughty parts.)

    Michilines is a freak.

  265. 265

    @Laura W:

    If you grew up in my parent’s household, you would have heard it several times a week, at least.

  266. 266

    I think you’re making this up.

    It’s either that or listen to PatBooneUsa over here tell us how the world is better off without Saddam.

  267. 267
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Honestly. Is there nothing else to do but fight on this blog?

    Tensions always go up during a full moon.

  268. 268

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: "Believe what I like"? Do you disclaim the charges against him? The evidence presented? His guilt? Pray tell us, oh, deeply enlightened one, which of those things you reject.

  269. 269
    The Needle says:

    Oh jesus christ, USAPatriot. Don’t tell me you still believe in the Iraq/Niger uranium story. Surely to god you’re not that fucking thick.

    Constant repetition of frequently refuted talking points for the purpose of infuriating other posters? Hmmmmm….could this be…TROLLING!?

  270. 270
    Laura W says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: I did stop at a gourmet deli up in highfalutin’ Jackson (NEW BLUE) County, NC, on the way home to grab some in-store made smoked trout dip, awesome crackers, and two very stinky cheeses. One was so blue and stinky that the texture in the mouth was that of sugar. All granulated and stuff? The other had this huge vein of blue running through it separating the cow’s cheese half from the goat’s cheese half. Er, sheep cheese half?
    I spend too much time here. I confuse goats with sheep.
    Alas…I have no dish to share.
    I ate it all to fortify me for WWUmteen.

  271. 271
    kormgar says:

    @Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse:

    He rides across the nation
    The thoroughbred of sin…

  272. 272

    I mean look at you slandering your own country

    For real. Obama got just short of 70 million votes, and apparently PattycakeUSA thinks all of us were unpatriotic.

    Who has that much hate in him? Or, her?

  273. 273
    Laura W says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:Yes, well, she did catch me in a career-ending typo, and I thank her for that.

  274. 274

    @TheHatOnMyCat: I could make a strong case that the world is, indeed, better off without Saddam Hussein.

    That says nothing about whether Bush and his coterie lied the nation into war.

  275. 275

    Well, I’m not going to pretend the world isn’t better off without Saddam, it probably is (and his sons too), but, I don’t agree with the false pretenses we used to rid the world of them, and I don’t personally believe death was the only answer (not that we would have employed another method, or figured out just how to accomplish that, but I feel there was another answer out there that we just never cared to figure out or try).

  276. 276

    I could make a strong case that the world is, indeed, better off without Saddam Hussein.

    Sure, if he had just died of natural causes. Or gone missing like Jennifer Wilbanks. But given the giant fuckmess we had to create in order to get rid of him, I am not going to be so easily convinced.

  277. 277
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Laura W: I caught that first but I let it slide since yer sick.

  278. 278
    The Needle says:

    I could make a strong case that the world is, indeed, better off without Saddam Hussein.

    But is America better off having lost so many soldiers, having so many others return home maimed, spending untold billions of dollars, and being no safer that were were before the war?

  279. 279
    Broken says:

    kormgar:
    As I recall Tenet was appointed by Clinton but continued to serve for several years under Bush.

    USAPatriot brought up Tenet, not me.

    I was pointing out to USA PAtriot that the only "consensus" in the intel community that Iraq had WMD was among intel groups controlled by Bush’s people: the WINPAC analysts, Rumsfeld’s special group at DIA, and Cheney’s people. The CIA Operations people, State’s INR people, and DOE’s nuke experts all disagreed.

    Even Tenet, an overseer who had nothing to do with intel gathering, knew the Niger stuff was crap.

  280. 280

    @demimondian:

    Pray tell us, oh, deeply enlightened one, which of those things you reject.

    The false pretenses we used to accomplish the task, and the number of innocents that had to die for that cause.

  281. 281
    kormgar says:

    @demimondian:

    Please do so.

    Frankly, I don’t see how you can manage it and stay true to the facts.

    Let’s be clear…you need to not just include the bad things that Saddam did or might have done in the future, but also the full consequences of his removal.

    That means the full death and injury count of the invasion and its aftermath (ongoing), its effect on the US, it’s effect on the stability of the region, its impact on Iran, etc. Also probably need to include its impact on the quality and readiness of our armed forces, its monetary cost, etc…

    It’s a pretty long list. And keep in mind, Saddam was contained and had been contained since 1991. So on the removing Saddam was a good thing side definitely include the full cost and toll which would have been inflicted through a continuation of containment policies, etc.

    Now, if you want to argue that a competently planned invasion which avoided every mistake which we made (and I do believe the GWB administration made nearly every mistake it was possible to make), and base your case on the pixie dust that his removal would have been a good thing if only, by golly, it had worked… well OK. But so what…if only I had chosen different lotto numbers I’d be a millionaire!

  282. 282

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Again, you are choosing not to answer the question, Rome. I didn’t speak to the war, I spoke to the question of Hussein’s own guilt for the crimes alleged against him. Which "false pretenses" were used in the trial against him? You made a sweeping claim about why he was executed talking about 9/11 and such. Do you still believe that claim?

  283. 283
    Dave C says:

    @kormgar:

    Dr. Horrible reference wins the thread!

  284. 284
    TenguPhule says:

    Well, I’m not going to pretend the world isn’t better off without Saddam,

    Many many people scattered across several countries would beg to differ.

  285. 285

    @kormgar: I reject your thesis. I count in none of that; it is irrelevant — would Hussein have been any more or less guilty of the crimes for which he was tried if he’d escaped to exile, or if he’d died in bed in Baghdad? He was tried and convicted for crimes against humanity committed while he ruled Iraq, including the mass extermination of the southern Sunni people, and the gassing of the Kurds. These were both genocides which he knowingly and intentionally launched. The question of how he came to be tried is irrelevant to that question.

    You’re every bit as much a fool as USAPonyBoy — you want to believe something and find the facts just inconvenient. Go fuck yourself.

  286. 286

    I spoke to the question of Hussein’s own guilt for the crimes alleged against him.

    Out of bounds. The question is not whether he was guilty of crimes. Most despots are. The context here is whether we should have undertaken an invasion and war to get rid of him.

    I don’t think any "world better off without Saddam" proposal can succeed in light of the terrible cost. The world was arguably better off without the Shah of Iran, too. For a while. The world would be better off without Kim Jong Il. And his cousin, Am Phi Ling Il.

  287. 287
    TenguPhule says:

    does not demonstrate a lie when a statement made in good faith turns out to be wrong later.

    Good faith? When the opposite view was suppressed per Donald, Cheney and Bush?

    GDIAF.

  288. 288
    TenguPhule says:

    The question of how he came to be tried is irrelevant to that question.

    Considering it was a kangaroo court and a lynching, I’d say it was very relevant.

    They convicted and killed him to get the worst possible outcome.

  289. 289
    Laura W says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Well that was awfully thoughtful of you but I’m almost well today so back to pummeling, ridiculing, mocking and insulting without cause, tout de suite!
    I tried to assist in the lightening up/closing down of this thread, but I see even smiley has given up the intervention effort. Maybe it wants to live on. Who am I to judge such things?

    I’m gonna go see if John has any new kyooooot pet photos posted because the big moon is still full tonight, and I can hear all the chained hounds howling down the hill because I have the sound muted on Lou Dobbs This Week.

  290. 290

    @TenguPhule: Really? I think you’re confusing Hussein himself with the war that was launched against Iraq. I doubt that many tears were shed for his death, even among the al Tikriti; he was a brutal sociopath, and as dangerous to his allies as to anyone else.

    Now, as to whether we should have launched a preemptive war, and whether the costs of that war can possibly be payed back by his capture? No, of course not. But that has nothing to do with the narrower question, and by keeping them separate, you avoid saying something you really don’t mean.

  291. 291

    Again, you are choosing not to answer the question, Rome. I didn’t speak to the war, I spoke to the question of Hussein’s own guilt for the crimes alleged against him. Which "false pretenses" were used in the trial against him? You made a sweeping claim about why he was executed talking about 9/11 and such. Do you still believe that claim?

    That you fell for the bait and switch is not my problem, that you also sit here and tell me how you are happy a man is dead when you claim to be a Christian is also not my problem.

    That you are thankful that a man was hanged at the hands of a militia that was opposed to the CPA is also not my problem. That you seem to clearly have no love for your enemy… say no more.

    To be quite honest, demi, your type of "christianity" pisses me off.

  292. 292

    @TheHatOnMyCat: Your honor, learned counsel would like to make this case about something we are not trying. If he insists on a show trial, I at least ask that he well jingle bells on his clown shoes.

  293. 293
    Beej says:

    Of course the media should be going after Obama on the Bagoyavich thing. I mean, look how they pounced on George W. Bush about the Tom DeLay scandal. After all, Obama and Bagoyvich are from the same place, just like Bush and DeLay are from the same place, so if they’re going to go after Bush because of DeLay, then they should go after Obama because of . . . . .Oh! wait.

  294. 294

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Poor Rome. You know, you and USAPatriot really ought to get together. You have so much in common in both the intellectual and the ethical spheres.

  295. 295
    kormgar says:

    @demimondian:

    Aw, you like me, you really really like me. I’m touched, no really, I am. Now, since we’re such good friends (fuck buddies and everything oh boy!) I feel entitled, no, privileged to give you a bit of schooling.

    Reality 101. Actions have consequences. To assess the merit of an action, one must examine the consequences of said action.

    From your posts so far, I get that you don’t have two brain cells to rub together but instead have been relying on only your basest autonomic emotional response to get your pudgy fingers twitching on your keyboard as you struggle to pound out a response, but even you should be able to grasp the preceding point.

    You’re too stupid to even realize that I included no thesis at all, only that you need to include the relevant facts if you want to make the case that Saddam’s removal was a net benefit.

  296. 296
    Broken says:

    USAPatriot said:

    Yes, "neocon nutjobs" like Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, etc. etc…

    I can’t help but notice the bulk of your quotes come from people who only saw the cherry-picked intel prepared by Bush’s people. Or do you somehow believe Kerry etc, got to see the objections presented by DOE, DOS INR, and CIA NPD? No fucking way, baby.

    Now, Saddam DID have a WMD program, up to the early 1990s. The H W Bush people and the Clinton people knew that. However, the last of these programs were shut down circa 1994.

    Under Bush 2, the WMD "evidence" had to be conjured up, since there were no such programs. Hence, the "aluminum tubes for centrifuges" which were really for the 81mm rockets which Iraq had produced for decades. Hence, "Curve Ball". Hence, the Niger forgeries, etc.

  297. 297

    Hold the phone.

    Whoa, Nellie!

    Are you trying to tell me that you are going to blow by a line like this and ….nothing?

    The world would be better off without Kim Jong Il. And his cousin, Am Phi Ling Il.

    Jesus, people. This is the best line on the thread.

    This place is hateful.

  298. 298
    kormgar says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    I think the thread is too busy for the treasures to be found…more the pity.

  299. 299

    Poor Rome. You know, you and USAPatriot really ought to get together. You have so much in common in both the intellectual and the ethical spheres.

    I’m not the one who claims to be faithful to a creed I don’t practice. I’m not the one who is morally compromised, you are.

  300. 300
    Laura W says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Well now, see…if you’d have grown up in my Southern California, West LA house, you would’ve heard: "I shot in the low 70s", "The half-day deep sea fishing boat to Paradise Cove leaves at 6am, kids, Snap Snap", and "Shut up and eat your overcooked lamb and mint jelly".
    You would also have a lifelong familiarity with, and fetish for, See’s Candy. Bordeaux anyone?
    "Umpteen"? Not so much familiarity.

  301. 301
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Laura W:

    I tried to assist in the lightening up/closing down of this thread, but I see even smiley has given up the intervention effort.

    I’m philosophically opposed to liberating commenters from an oppressive thread. While it seems like a good idea to those of us that value the democratic values of comity and civility, oftentimes historical tensions are so deeply ingrained in the commenters that any efforts to free them just results in even more disintegration.

  302. 302
    Comrade Stuck says:

    Funhouse Proverb — The circle has many turns before it becomes itself.

    Ohmmmmmm!

  303. 303
    kormgar says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    And if not properly planned and executed said liberation can destabilize an entire blog until the whole thing degenerates into LOLCatz references and shouts of Epic Win!

  304. 304
    cleek says:

    No, Saddam stopped the inspectors from doing their job. He never cooperated fully.

    actually, he did.

    and the inspectors continued to inspect right up until the US government told them to get out because of imminent invasion.

  305. 305

    Are you trying to tell me that you are going to blow by a line like this and ….nothing?

    It was awesome, and very cute! Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got a score to settle here that’s been a long time coming.

  306. 306
    kormgar says:

    @cleek:

    I think that’s a bit of an overstatement, for most of the containment years Saddam’s cooperation was grudging at best and occasionally non-existent. However, by the time the invasion had rolled around he was cowering before the inspectors.

    Too bad that Bush never intended to allow a diplomatic solution to the problem.

  307. 307

    @Laura W:

    Born in St Johns Hospital, Santa Monica.

    I got yer Southern California culture right here:

    The mate was a mighty sailing man,
    The skipper brave and sure.
    Five passengers set sail that day
    For a three hour tour, a three hour tour.

    Oh yeah. And a Big Boy, California Style.

  308. 308

    I’ve got a score to settle here that’s been a long time coming.

    I step aside.

    If you need me, the password is "fml."

  309. 309

    Im so sorry, but the fucking goddam post edit doesnt work half the time. You know, we are still in the world of 1995 software here.

    The password is "flm."

  310. 310
    Comrade Stuck says:

    More Funhouse Proverb == Revenge is a dish best served with French Fries, Hamburger and a Coke.

    & a pickle.

  311. 311

    Hmmmm, fml made more sense. I’m stumped. Care to msg me?

  312. 312
    Laura W says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:Born in St. John’s Hospital, 2/17/Umpteen
    I got your yer Southern California culture right here.

  313. 313
    Allan says:

    I see we’ve managed to relitigate the case for war in Iraq. As much fun as that can be, shouldn’t we save it for the future threads dissecting the testimony at the war crimes trials of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, et al?

  314. 314
    Hyperion says:

    No offense, but are you aware that you might be the only American alive over the age of twelve who hasn’t been familiar with "umpteen" and its general use for the last umpteen years?

    i was wondering that myself.
    but, of course, i was too polite to bring it up.

  315. 315

    @kormgar: Actually, thanks but I’m not interested. You’re a fool.

    This is particularly priceless, though:

    You’re too stupid to even realize that I included no thesis at all, only that you need to include the relevant facts if you want to make the case that Saddam’s removal was a net benefit.

    In other word, you included no thesis *except the one I explicitly rejected as irrelevant*. Gosh.

    You might wait until after your first cup of coffee to post. Maybe that will help.

  316. 316

    @Comrade Stuck: You were doing fine until the pickle.

    Pickles? They’re great for playing, not so good for revenging.

  317. 317
    Snail Darter says:

    @demimondian:

    Pickle? Nickel? or a ride on my Motorsickle.

  318. 318
    Hyperion says:

    the whole thing degenerates into LOLCatz references and shouts of Epic Win!

    please, not that.

  319. 319
    cleek says:

    I think that’s a bit of an overstatement, for most of the containment years Saddam’s cooperation was grudging at best and occasionally non-existent.

    most, yes.

    but there were several months of essentially complete cooperation. that cooperation was ended by Bush. and yet Bush maintains, to this very day, that "Saddam Hussein was unwilling to let the inspectors go in to determine whether or not the U.N. resolutions were being upheld"

    the inspectors were in. Bush kicked them out.

    Bush is a liar.

  320. 320
    Laura W says:

    whatever at this point.
    zzzzzzzzz.

  321. 321

    the inspectors were in. Bush kicked them out.
    Bush is a liar.

    word.

  322. 322

    Try to inject some levity into this blog upon occasion and you just suffer, suffer, SUFFER for it

    You forgot Rule Number One:

    No good deed shall go unpunished.

  323. 323
    TenguPhule says:

    Really? I think you’re confusing Hussein himself with the war that was launched against Iraq.

    Because in many ways they are connected. Trying to pretend otherwise is stupid.

    Saddam had been reduced to impotence. But for his people, they will now remember his regime for the stability it brought rather then the abuses that occured.

    The show trial and lynching took a bad man and made him look sympathetic compared to the people who replaced him.

  324. 324
  325. 325

    USAputz makes the point repeatedly that Bush didn’t lie because…Bush said so. The complete hole in this whole mess is that everybody lets him make that assertion unchallenged.

    I’m a goddamed nail bender from a shit burg in NE OR and I got the WMDs and the results of invading Iraq right and USAputz proclaims that the Bush adminsistration made a mistake? How the hell does that work? How the fuck does it work that knowing some Iraqis and Iranians 30 years ago in college and studying what was available world wide regarding Iraq got me to the right place and your asshole got it so wrong? You complete dead end asshole, it was there for somebody who wanted to get it right not get it the way they wanted it.

    If you want to postulate that BushCo was so incredibly incompetent as to get it wrong while I didn’t, you’re welcome to that, but it begs the question of why in the hell you defend it.

  326. 326

    @TheHatOnMyCat: Good deed?

    I can haz gud dede? EPIC WIN!

  327. 327
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Laura W:

    Jesus. Try to inject some levity into this blog upon occasion and you just suffer, suffer, SUFFER for it.

    Is it that? Or is it in fact a conspiracy to prevent us from learning the real meaning of umpteen??

  328. 328
  329. 329
    Snail Darter says:

    Bush is a liar.

    vile bile file

  330. 330

    @TenguPhule: [sigh]

    The right answer to my argument is close to what you’re saying, but not quite there. It’s just like the claim the Obama is a Muslim — the right answer isn’t to dignify the claim with a refutation, but to ask "So what? Would he be less of an American if he were, in fact, Muslim."

    For God’s sake, people, don’t you recognize a jackalope when it’s waved under your nose? What difference does it make whether Hussein was properly tried or not? The right answer is "Would that make a difference?"

    Godwin it all to Hades, TZ had it right up above, and the rest of you all missed it altogether.

  331. 331
    USAPatriot says:

    @Allan:

    Despite the best efforts of the Democrats over the past 8 years, it’s still not a crime to defend America against our enemies.

  332. 332
    TenguPhule says:

    What difference does it make whether Hussein was properly tried or not?

    All the difference in the world.

  333. 333

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Now, now, JSF. When you enter a blog to bring peace and ethnic harmony to a civil war in stasis, you know that you can expect to be greeted with flowers and candy.

  334. 334
    Laura W says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Jesus Christ, you guys are like 5 posts ahead of me.
    This is freaky. You are block quoting a post I had poster’s remorse on and totally edited out.
    Was it good? Should I revisit it? Was I hasty in my rejection of my self?
    Did you keep the whole thing, or just that sentence?
    What good is this 5 min. edit feature if one’s thoughts are not one’s own to discard or re-embellish?
    I thought this edit window was like the confessional booth.
    Not so much?

  335. 335
    Snail Darter says:

    Please support the Save The Jackalope Emporium

  336. 336
    TenguPhule says:

    USAPatriotFascist says: Extremism in the pursuit of power is no vice!

    Mandatory sterilization of the GOP would solve so many problems down the line.

  337. 337
    USAPatriot says:

    Facism: "Mandatory sterilization of the GOP would solve so many problems down the line."

    So many lefties have no sense of irony. LOL

  338. 338

    @USAPatriot: Um, hint, USAPatsy: self-abuse had nothing to do with defending the nation, despite the fact of your anti-American beliefs.

  339. 339

    I thought this edit window was like the confessional booth.

    It is, but here, the priest is doing a crossword puzzle while you spill your guts out.

  340. 340
    USAPatriot says:

    Even for here, this is prety incoherent: "Um, hint, USAPatsy: self-abuse had nothing to do with defending the nation, despite the fact of your anti-American beliefs."

  341. 341
    LiberalTarian says:

    @smiley:

    Watch BBCAmerica. They say shit and fuck on a regular basis. Rather liberating.

    And USPA? No balls. I’m not the one who believes in Bush’s wars.

  342. 342
    Snail Darter says:

    @USAPatriot:

    You sure are a glutton for punishment dude. Why don’t you just flog yerself with a dead chicken. A lot less typing.

  343. 343
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Well, I wasn’t born there, but I did grow up in So Cal: Newport Beach, as a matter of fact. When it was still sleepy, there were still fishing boats at the cannery, and the cannery was not a boutique mall/highrise.

  344. 344
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Laura W: If you decide to edit your thoughts in real time, let me know so I can edit my response. I think you were hasty. It’s a mistake to take anonymous commenting personally. Whenever I start to take it a little too seriously, I just ask myself, "Self, do you really think Tenguphile kills everyone in his way?"

  345. 345

    Well, I wasn’t born there, but I did grow up in So Cal: Newport Beach, as a matter of fact.

    I lived on the peninsula for a while. About 100 feet from the sand at 27th street.

  346. 346

    Why don’t you just flog yerself with a dead chicken

    I’ll thank you not to make fun of my health regimens.

  347. 347

    All the difference in the world.

    I absolutely agree. At this point those who lead our nation are no better than the dictator we said needed overthrowing.

    Even for here, this is prety incoherent: "Um, hint, USAPatsy: self-abuse had nothing to do with defending the nation, despite the fact of your anti-American beliefs."

    It’s quite coherent (and profound) to me. I guess you need a little more time in the stew before you are ready.

    USAPatsy – great name, wish I’d thought of it.

  348. 348

    @USAPatriot: Poor, poor, USAPathetic.

    Before, you were complaining that people were descending into vulgarity and…Oh. My. Godwin…profanity. Possibly even (shocking, I know, but true) obscenity and blasphemy. (I’m sorry; the imagery must be very painful to you. Yes, if you must, you can clutch your pearls again, dear, but they’re still between your legs.)

    But, you see, sweetie, there’s a problem with this. You were able to understand the vulgarity, and so you weren’t totally a totally defenseless idiot. The other posters here were trying to engage with you an intellectual level which you would understand.

    In the light of your protestations, I chose to attempt to engage using rhetoric better suited to your delicate pearls. (Yes, yes, they’re still down there. Are you sure you’re not engaging in self-abuse?) Apparently, though, they were right about your attainments and I was wrong.

  349. 349
    USAPatriot says:

    "At this point those who lead our nation are no better than the dictator we said needed overthrowing."

    Right, setting up a democracy and allowing the Iraqi people to vote are exactly the same as Saddam’s rape rooms and wood chippers.

  350. 350

    "Self, do you really think Tenguphile kills everyone in his way?"

    TP is a little like Jeffrey Daumer. He really wasn’t that awful when you got to know him.

  351. 351
    Snail Darter says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Post flogging chicken soup ( or, TheHatOnMyChicken)

  352. 352
    USAPatriot says:

    @demimondian: There is medication that might help you.

  353. 353
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Wow, lucky you.

    I lived on Lido, also about 100 feet from the sand, but of course it was the bay, not the ocean. The peninsula was the real beach.

    I can still smell the pier.

  354. 354

    @USAPatriot: Really? Oh, Dr. Frist, I long to hear your diagnosis and your prescription.

    Why, I’m certain that I could be up and playing volleyball in no time.

  355. 355
    TenguPhule says:

    Right, setting up a democracy and allowing the Iraqi people to vote are exactly the same as Saddam’s rape rooms and wood chippers.

    Right, because they turned around and let their supporters reopen the rape rooms and killing grounds under new management.

    Next.

  356. 356

    I lived on Lido, also about 100 feet from the sand, but of course it was the bay, not the ocean. The penninsula was the real beach.

    I always thought Lido was where the really rich people lived. I was in what can best be described as a shack over there behind the pier. Lido was …. mansions, and expensive boats. No?

  357. 357

    @Chuck Butcher:

    USAputz makes the point repeatedly that Bush didn’t lie because…Bush said so. The complete hole in this whole mess is that everybody lets him make that assertion unchallenged.

    Well, sorry Chuck, some of us did try, apologies that it wasn’t up to your standards.

  358. 358
    Snail Darter says:

    @USAPatriot:

    So your an NRO dude. Way cool. I’ve been wanting to know, and maybe you can help me. Is it true that when Dick Cheney is around, K-Low touches herself?

  359. 359

    @TenguPhule: Now, now. It’s really true that they aren’t the same.

    I mean, really, can you imagine, say, Dick Cheney just popping off and shooting a lawyer friend?

  360. 360
    TenguPhule says:

    TP is a little like Jeffrey Daumer. He really wasn’t that awful when you got to know him.

    Hey! Do I make fun of the people you eat?

  361. 361
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @USAPatriot:

    See, now I had been thinking of commenting about the urban myth/lie about Saddam’s paper shredders/wood chippers, and here you go and do it for me.

    Of course you merely repeat the myth/lie.

  362. 362

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Not a fair claim, Chuck. If you want to go after me for my pilpul over Hussein’s execution, feel free, but a lot of posters called USAPatsy out over the broader claim.

  363. 363

    I could be up and playing volleyball in no time.

    The way you are following that balloon in the video? You are almost at the amphibian level of interaction with your surroundings ……….

  364. 364
    TenguPhule says:

    I mean, really, can you imagine, say, Dick Cheney just popping off and shooting a lawyer friend?

    The part that got me was when the lawyer apologized for getting in the way of the buckshot.

  365. 365

    @Snail Darter: That is a truly vile image. Now I need to bleach my brain.

  366. 366

    Hey! Do I make fun of the people you eat?

    Before or after I turn them into jerky?

  367. 367
    TenguPhule says:

    That is a truly vile image. Now I need to bleach my brain.

    Dick Cheney and Bill Oreilly dancing the maschocism tango in red evening gowns.

    Unsee it.

  368. 368
    USAPatriot says:

    @TenguPhule: Nonsense. Did Saddam leave you money for your support, or do you work for free?

  369. 369
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Well plenty of my neighbors were rich, others not so much. My dad just had a good eye for real estate.

    As much as I make fun of the whole Newport/Lido gestalt now, I must admit it was a very healthy, safe place to raise kids. If I ever got bored, I could take my little sabot sailboat out on the bay.

    The peninsula was the fun part of town though.

  370. 370
    TenguPhule says:

    USAPatriotFacist says: When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less.

    Dance little troll. Dance.

  371. 371

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Not a fair claim, Chuck. If you want to go after me for my pilpul over Hussein’s execution, feel free, but a lot of posters called USAPatsy out over the broader claim.

    Chuck’s post wasn’t regarding Saddam’s execution demi, that you are stuck on this seems to indicate you may be in need of some meds. Take a pill.

  372. 372
    USAPatriot says:

    @Zuzu’s Petals: Why is it important for you to defend Saddam?

  373. 373

    The peninsula was the fun part of town though.

    All beach bums and dense marijuana smoke during the week. Mobs of teenage beachgoers from inland on the weekends.

    Some cool bars down there. Ultimately, too noisy for me. Also I think the vietnamese people who fished all the time off the pier, ate my cat.

  374. 374
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Why is important to you to lie?

  375. 375

    When I use a word it means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less.

    Bzzt. Flagarant plagiarism:

    ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
    ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
    ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all.’

  376. 376
    Laura W says:

    Did you all see?
    There’s a new puppy video?

  377. 377
    Mike in NC says:

    Despite the best efforts of the Democrats over the past 8 years, it’s still not a crime to defend America against our enemies.

    Absolutely! We were recently spared the nightmare of an elderly neocon warmonger and his corrupt imbecile running mate from further ruining this once great country. I can live with that. You’re welcome.

  378. 378
    Snail Darter says:

    Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall;
    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
    All the King’s horses
    And all the King’s men
    Couldn’t put Humpty together again!

    The Bush Legacy Project.

  379. 379
    kormgar says:

    @demimondian:

    OK…you are the one who claimed that you could make the case that the removal of Saddam made the world a better place.

    So I asked you to do so. And in return you didn’t just tell me to go fuck myself. No…that’d be too easy. My favorite bit is your inane claim that my request for facts is proof that I ignore facts. That’s just awesome stupid.

    So that pretty much opens you up for full bore mockery in my book. And since you are such a sterling example of humanity in all it’s naked spendor, I will most likely continue to do so as the opportunity arises.

    But to revisit one of your ill-informed bones of contention, no…my statement that you will need to include the consequences of removing Saddam is not a thesis, it’s a stipulation…where the hell did you go to school, your grandparent’s basement?

    I honestly don’t know what caused you to respond to my first post with such mind-numbing stupidity and hostility. But the least I can do is laugh at you.

    No, really, it’s the least I can do.

  380. 380

    @Zuzu’s Petals:

    Why is important to you to lie?

    Now, now Zuzu, USAP didn’t lie, Bush did. USAP just fell for it and never thought twice about it when much of the rest of the country had already had their V-8 moment. That’s all.

    I’m sure he has a flag tacked up over his bed and "support our troops" magnets placed on the tailgate of his truck, right next to his "America Love It or Leave It" and Bush/Cheney 2000/2004 bumper stickers.

  381. 381

    I’m sure he has a flag tacked up over his bed and "support our troops" magnets

    Don’t forget the "

  382. 382

    I honestly don’t know what caused you to respond to my first post with such mind-numbing stupidity and hostility. But the least I can do is laugh at you.

    Nah kormgar, shake it off. demi’s anger at you is really just a leftover projection of his anger at me, I shook him up, and he’s pissed. Not your fault.

  383. 383
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Ah, I was gone by ’68 … doper surfers and Vietnamese fishermen were after my time.

    But when I was little the peninsula meant the Fun Zone, which was authentic and run down fun even while the rest of the place was getting fancy. It was also the place for raunchy teenage parties, though I admit I partook of very few, being something of a dor… cruising Bal in mom’s Rambler, well, you get the picture.

    On the other hand my older sister had a ton of fun stories from back in the day. In fact she won the mashed potato contest at the Rondezvous…which may have been gone by the time you were there.

    My favorite memories? Paddling with the Balboa Outrigger Club, full of homesick Hawaiians and down-home beach guys. Funnest parties, with homemade pineapple moonshine, and entire families of Hawaiians.

  384. 384
    kormgar says:

    @demimondian:

    Oh, and by the way, I notice that you don’t seem to go quite so batshit stupid and angry at other folk’s posts.

    Now, my first post to you was pretty fucking innocuous. Just a request, with some background.

    I mean…I enjoy mocking you and like I said I will probably continue to do so…but man…what the hell was up your ass when you wrote your response.

    From some of your other posts I suspect you may not be as stupid as you seem when you respond to me…so what gives?

  385. 385

    Regarding my 381? Fuck it. In one browser, the edit post just locks up my browser. In the other browser, the thread by itself locks up the browser and makes me kill it in the task manager. Completely breaks the browser.

    Really, nice software.

  386. 386
    kormgar says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:

    Oh I’m not mad or worried, I never let the internet rile me up.

    I generally enjoy a good online debate, especially when everyone is at least minimally rational.

    But I do take a certain evil pleasure in mocking folks when they get angry at me. Ah well…I suppose that means I’m not a very nice person. But then again, I never claim to be.

  387. 387
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    #383: "something of a dor" = something of a dork

    Edit function, whaaaa….?

  388. 388

    I’m sure he has a flag tacked up over his bed and "support our troops" magnets placed on the tailgate of his truck, right next to his "America Love It or Leave It" and Bush/Cheney 2000/2004 bumper stickers.

    By the way, I expect all but the Bush/Cheney bumper stickers to be removed on January 20th at precisely 12:00 noon EST.

  389. 389

    @TenguPhule: Hey! No fair defaming poor Lehrer that way!

  390. 390
    USAPatriot says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Repeating "Bush lied" over and over won’t make it true.

  391. 391

    Regarding my 381? Fuck it. In one browser, the edit post just locks up my browser. In the other browser, the thread by itself locks up the browser and makes me kill it in the task manager. Completely breaks the browser.

    Sounds like it’s almost time for that drink. ;)

  392. 392
    cleek says:

    Right, setting up a democracy and allowing the Iraqi people to vote are exactly the same as Saddam’s rape rooms and wood chippers.

    to some, i’m sure it’s a distinction without much difference.

  393. 393
    Zuzu's Petals says:

    @USAPatriot:

    And repeating the lie itself doesn’t make it true, either.

  394. 394

    Repeating "Bush lied" over and over won’t make it true.

    Shorter USAP:

    "Oh, please, no, don’t tell me that, I can’t handle it, I’ll lose my mind if I have to use it on my own without being told what to think by Rush Limbaugh, oh NO!"

  395. 395
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Um…are you claiming that he didn’t?

    Wow…Just…Wow

    So…let me get this straight…you go off about how horrible Clinton and Obama were/are…but Bush is golden in your book?

  396. 396
    USAPatriot says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: More projection. Seek medical attention.

  397. 397
    USAPatriot says:

    @kormgar: "So…let me get this straight…you go off about how horrible Clinton and Obama were/are"

    I did? When? You seem to have lied again. It may be pathological.

  398. 398

    More projection. Seek medical attention

    Right, and that whole McCain/Palin campaign came off just as you expected because enthusiasm for the principles of the GOP is working out so perfectly, eh?

    You’re hilariously funny when you’re afraid to face the truth.

    ETA: USAP what is it you think I’m projecting? I haven’t listened to Rush Limbaugh since my parents forced me to about 20 years ago.

  399. 399

    @USAPatriot: Really, dear, you should at least wash your hands.

  400. 400
    USAPatriot says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: McCain didn’t win the election, therefore you don’t need a psychiatrist, is that the "logic" you were going for there? LOL

  401. 401
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Did you happen to see that neat little punctuation at the end of my sentence. It looked like "?"

    That’s what grown-ups call a "question mark". It indicates that the statement is an interrogative…in other words, a request for information.

    Your posts to date leave the very strong impression that you are a big fan of Bush but that you despise Obama and Clinton. Hence, my request for information. Perhaps I am mistaken, perhaps my premises are faulty…hence the question mark.

    Now…you claim that I have lied again. Hmm…kindly point out my first lie, in that case.

  402. 402
    USAPatriot says:

    @demimondian: Speaking of psychiatry…

  403. 403
    USAPatriot says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Looks like we can add the definition of "projection" to the very long list of things Circus is ignorant of.

  404. 404
    USAPatriot says:

    @kormgar: Your posts, including your last one, leave the strong impression you are mentally unfit.

  405. 405

    @USAPatriot: I wasn’t speaking of psychiatry.

    Do you often hold conversations with individuals that others around you don’t notice? Have these conversations ever scared you, or caused you any other kind of social or personal distress?

  406. 406

    Repeating "Bush lied" over and over won’t make it true.

    True, but truth, its being true is what makes it true.

    Truly.

    President George W. Bush and seven of his administration’s top officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, made at least 935 false statements in the two years following September 11, 2001, about the national security threat posed by Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. Nearly five years after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, an exhaustive examination of the record shows that the statements were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.
    On at least 532 separate occasions (in speeches, briefings, interviews, testimony, and the like), Bush and these three key officials, along with Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan, stated unequivocally that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (or was trying to produce or obtain them), links to Al Qaeda, or both. This concerted effort was the underpinning of the Bush administration’s case for war.
    It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to Al Qaeda. This was the conclusion of numerous bipartisan government investigations, including those by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (2004 and 2006), the 9/11 Commission, and the multinational Iraq Survey Group, whose "Duelfer Report" established that Saddam Hussein had terminated Iraq’s nuclear program in 1991 and made little effort to restart it.
    In short, the Bush administration led the nation to war on the basis of erroneous information that it methodically propagated and that culminated in military action against Iraq on March 19, 2003. Not surprisingly, the officials with the most opportunities to make speeches, grant media interviews, and otherwise frame the public debate also made the most false statements, according to this first-ever analysis of the entire body of prewar rhetoric.

  407. 407
    USAPatriot says:

    @demimondian: "I wasn’t speaking of psychiatry."

    I didn’t indicate you were. Try to follow the thread. LOL

  408. 408
    Snail Darter says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Seek medical attention.

    Jeebus dude, this is so outdated. I know it’s a mainstay of wingnut passe insults, along with ‘voices in yer head tellin ya"
    "you need meds" etc etc…. But it shows a staleness of thought that seems to be rotting greater wingnuttia these days, not to mention the GOP as a party. New ideas dude, you need new ideas. And. like man, do you expect us, anybody to believe that Bush didn’t lie about somethin’ , I mean not even to Laura about leaving the toilet down….. Get some new material, yer boorin me to tears here.

  409. 409
    USAPatriot says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: Do you think incoming Secretary of State Hillary Clinton should be tried for war crimes? LOL

    Why didn’t you cite the source for that idiotic quote?

  410. 410

    Well, USAP, in post 67 you start in on your Obama lied crap, which continues on post 77 and beyond. On post 64 you talk about "weaselly Clintonian parsing" and then spend hours on this thread defending the absolutely unbelievable idea that Bush never told a single lie. I think kormgar’s portrayal is correct.

  411. 411

    Looks like we can add the definition of "projection"

    Funny, coming from a guy with Bell & Howell stamped on his forehead.

  412. 412
    USAPatriot says:

    @Snail Darter: The truth bores you. That isn’t my problem.

  413. 413
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    Oh come on. If you are going to troll at least put some effort into it. Seriously man…ignorant and lazy? Yikes

    To recycle my earlier post to you:

    Ah…well then…you must be sick all the time. You seem to have a deep seated hatred for the core principles of this nation, which points to a fundamental lack of patriotism, although I am sure that you put on the act of waving your flag and pretending to care.

    But you seem to be one of those folks who hates many of your fellow Americans, and who hates the freedoms which our progenitors fought and died to first establish and then defend.

    So I ask you. Why do you hate America so much? And why do you spend so much time pretending the opposite.

    Is that why you include patriot in your name? Because you keep forgetting and need to constantly remind yourself. Is it like a ritual. Wake up, remember to be patriotic, drink coffee, remember to be patriotic, ad infinitum? The second you forget you begin spewing your America hating filth…

    I get it now. We’re through with you.

    Well?

  414. 414

    @USAPatriot: You appear very concerned about the mental unfitness of others. Have you ever spent any time attempting to root out the basis of that obsession? Has anyone you trust ever suggested that you had some adjustment issues? Or are you hoping to build on the success some have in reinforcing their authority by stigmatizing others as "unfit"?

  415. 415

    Why didn’t you cite the source for that idiotic quote?

    I did now.

  416. 416

    @USAPatriot: Actually, you did. In English, when a discourse participant begins an utterance with the phrase "Speaking of", it is an indication that the party being addressed had been participating in a discussion in which the topic specified had been raised.

    If English isn’t your native tongue, you can easily obtain English as a second language lessons; they’ll help you fit in better, particularly as they usually also include instruction in critical cultural norms.

  417. 417
    USAPatriot says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Obama didn’t tell the truth on the 9th, that’s correct. Clinton was in fact impeached because he lied under oath before a federal judge. Pointing out these facts in no way implies I hate the people being discussed. I’m not on the left; I’m not filled with hate.

  418. 418

    Over the past two and a half years, researchers at the Fund for Independence in Journalism have sought to document every public statement made by eight top Bush administration officials from September 11, 2001, to September 11, 2003, regarding (1) Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction and (2) Iraq’s links to Al Qaeda. Although both had been frequently cited as rationales for the U.S. war in Iraq, by 2005 it was known that these assertions had not, in fact, been true.
    The centerpiece of this project is an exhaustive, searchable, and robustly indexed database of all public statements on the two topics by President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin Powell, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, and White House Press Secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan. These statements were painstakingly collected from the websites of the White House, State Department, and Defense Department as well as from transcripts of interviews and briefings, texts of speeches and testimony, prepared statements, and the like.
    Also included are statements in the same two categories that appeared in major newspapers and on television programs, were part of public statements by other officials, or were contained in government studies or reports, books, and the like from September 11, 2001, to December 31, 2007. Secondary material from reports and books was included in the two-year database only in cases where specific dates were available. Other noteworthy material was included for context and completeness.
    As a general rule, only the relevant excerpts of public statements have been included in the database; deleted material is marked "[text omitted]." (In a case of a lengthy press conference in which Iraq is mentioned only briefly, for example, only the relevant passage is included.) Where deleting text might have rendered the remaining material misleading or difficult to understand, longer passages were left intact. And in some cases public pronouncements of Bush administration officials that did not include direct statements were included if they provided useful context.
    Wherever possible, hyperlinks are provided.

    In case anyone wants to dig into the background of the 935 lies. This material should keep you busy for a little while.

  419. 419

    @Snail Darter:

    Thanks for the kick in the pants, I did this earlier to demi. I guess I’m outdated too (but not wingnut, at least – whew!)

    At least I admit when I’m wrong. Sorry demi, I shouldn’t have used such an outdated cliche on a reply. I’ll try to do better next time, I promise.

  420. 420
    bago says:

    Right, setting up a democracy and allowing the Iraqi people to vote are exactly the same as Saddam’s rape rooms and wood chippers

    Well, seeing as we used the same rape rooms in Abu Grahib for the exact same thing, yeah, it kind of is.

  421. 421

    @Snail Darter:

    New ideas dude, you need new ideas.

    Actually, those aren’t even USAPathetic’s ideas. Sadly, he can’t have new ideas; first, he needs some to begin with.

  422. 422
    USAPatriot says:

    @demimondian: In a prior post, I spoke of psychiatry. In my very next post, I said "speaking of psychiatry…" I’m sorry that was too complicated for you to follow. LOL

  423. 423
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    There is as yet no indication that Obama lied on the 9th. Only a fool or a demagogue would claim otherwise based on the facts currently available. We’ve covered this already, in great detail.

    So which is it. Are you a fool? Or a demagogue?

    Given your insecure need to proclaim your patriotism in your very handle combined with your proven lack of actual, you know, patriotism, I’m going to go with demagogue.

  424. 424

    In his State of the Union address on January 28, 2003, President Bush said: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
    But as early as March 2002, there was uncertainty within the intelligence community regarding the sale of uranium to Iraq. That month, the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research published an intelligence assessment titled, "Niger: Sale of Uranium to Iraq Is Unlikely." In July 2002, the Energy Department concluded that there was "no information indicating that any of the uranium shipments arrived in Iraq" and suggested that the "amount of uranium specified far exceeds what Iraq would need even for a robust nuclear weapons program." In August 2002, the Central Intelligence Agency made no mention of the Iraq-Niger connection in a paper on Iraq’s WMD capabilities.
    Just two weeks before the president’s speech, an analyst with the Bureau of Intelligence and Research had sent an e-mail to several other analysts describing why he believed "the uranium purchase agreement probably is a hoax." And in 2006 the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence concluded: "Postwar findings do not support the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) assessment that Iraq was ‘vigorously trying to procure uranium ore and yellowcake’ from Africa. Postwar findings support the assessment in the NIE of the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) that claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa are ‘highly dubious.’"

    Somebody, stop me ….

  425. 425
    USAPatriot says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: Again, a statement made in good faith that later is found to be incorrect is not a lie. So again, you’re the one lying.

  426. 426
    USAPatriot says:

    @kormgar: Obama said on the 9th that he had had "no contact" with Blagojevich, which we now know is not true.

  427. 427

    In case anyone wants to dig into the background of the 935 lies. This material should keep you busy for a little while.

    That’s more than the over 600 contradictions in the Bible, that means Bush is a bigger liar than all of God’s trusted scripture writers. WOW! U-SAP is going to be busy, I think. Get cracking dude, there will be a test on this material on January 21st. Same Bat time, same Bat station.

  428. 428

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: No problem.

    For what it’s worth, the word "projection" has a very specific therapeutic meaning, and it isn’t what most people think it is. It refers quite specifically to the projection of unpleasant thoughts and feelings onto the therapist particularly in the context of therapy. (The client may say something like "You’re trying to make me want to hit her." when that is quite the furthest thing from the therapist’s mind. What has actually happened is that the line of discussion has caused the patient to experience, either directly or in memeory, those feelings, with which he or she is uncomfortable.) The more general usage isn’t correct.

    — demi "pedant" mondian

  429. 429
    USAPatriot says:

    @bago: Not true. What drives you to slander America?

  430. 430

    @USAPatriot: Um, I don’t know about you, USAP, but I’m not speaking; I’m typing. Did I miss an audio channel somewhere.

    (Sweet Jesus, son of Mary. Folks, is this *really* what the once-proud conservative movement has been reduced to? Russell Kirk is spinning in his grave.)

  431. 431
    USAPatriot says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: "In his State of the Union address on January 28, 2003, President Bush said: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
    But as early as March 2002, there was uncertainty within the intelligence community regarding the sale of uranium to Iraq."

    "Sought" does not imply there was a "sale" you imbecile. LOL

    The British stand by their intel.

  432. 432
    TenguPhule says:

    USAFacist says: Obama is taking power and looking clean, Bush is leaving power and looks like a lying sack of shit. I disbelieve! I will roll a saving throw and pierce through the veil of lies that the commie-liberals have erected!

    Fixed.

  433. 433
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    You throw the word "lying" around awfully freely. Perhaps you are confused about the meaning of the word?

    In any case, GWB has on several occasions declared that the US does not torture. Now we find that not only has the US been torturing prisoners for several years now, but that many of the techniques used were approved by GWB and/or members of his cabinet.

    I’d call that lying, and about something pretty goddamn important. See, whether or not you got a blowjob from a fat ugly intern…not important. Whether or not we should invade a country, or whether or not we stay true to our founding principles, or whether or not we abide by the Geneva Conventions…incredibly fucking important.

    Clinton should have resigned over his irresponsible stupidity. GWB should have been imprisoned.

  434. 434
    TenguPhule says:

    a statement made in good faith that later is found to be incorrect is not a lie.

    Bush: We must invade because Saddam is not letting the inspectors into Iraq.

    Followed by the Inspectors leaving Iraq because Bush was invading.

    Oops!

  435. 435

    Again, a statement made in good faith that later is found to be incorrect is not a lie. So again, you’re the one lying.

    Your assertion that the the Niger lie was made in good faith is not convincing. If you were describing the reaction of a few fellows down at the Cup & Saucer coffee shop, maybe. But these were the highest officials and most informed analysts in the the US government, who took a blatantly absurd view of a relatively meaningless piece of intelligence and turned it into a polished lie for the specific purpose of ginning up support for a war.

    Sorry, but this ship sailed a long time ago. You aren’t going to get any traction for your dumbass troll in here.

    How long do you plan to keep this up? Do you have an end game for this harangue?

  436. 436
    Xenos says:

    @demimondian: You make me want to hit pedants.

  437. 437
    TenguPhule says:

    "Sought" does not imply there was a "sale" you imbecile.

    And the USfacist keeps right on digging that hole to China.

  438. 438
    Mike in NC says:

    Don’t you just love how this idiot wingnut asshole "USAPutz" ends all of his trolls with "LOL" or "ROTFLMHA": shit that hasn’t been done in about the last ten years. What a sorry out of touch douchebag. Get a clue! Did mommy just buy you your first PC? Pathetic loser…

  439. 439
  440. 440
    TenguPhule says:

    Do you have an end game for this harangue?

    If he’s following the GOP model, it will inevitably require a taxpayer bailout followed by a few years of rehabilitation by the Good Old Prick’s club and then he’ll be back.

  441. 441

    The British stand by their intel.

    The intel was meaningless. Saddam could have bought every kilo of yellowcake in Niger and he still would not have had a viable weapons program.

    He just would have had a lot of yellowcake.

    He’d have been many years from any viable weapons capability, even if he’d had the infrastructure to go forward, which he did not.

    Only fools, or liars, would have suggested otherwise.

  442. 442

    I’m not on the left; I’m not filled with hate.

    Ah, there’s your mistake. People on the left are not filled with hate, it’s the people on the right who want to destroy life as we know it. People on the left just detest the ideas of the people on the right, the people on the right are the ones who are truly hateful (and boy, they can’t wait for Armageddon to get started, that’s why they’re pushing it along as hard as they can).

    People on the right say people on the left want to take away your guns. Well, not all of us do, but quite a few of us hate gun violence, and we want to see humanity live, not die by bullets. Even people like you, dare we say, we want to see enjoy their one chance on earth and make as much of their life as they can. See, now, people filled with hate wouldn’t do that. People on the right want to make sure all gun rights (even assault weapons) are protected, because they are afraid and want to be able to kill that which they are afraid of.

    That is just one example. I could go on and on. Racism, financial equality, sexual orientation. The people on the right are the haters dude, and you’re one of them, congratulations.

  443. 443
    kormgar says:

    @USAPatriot:

    OK, if your statement is true, then Obama had personal contact with grand poobah douchebag Blagojevich regarding his Senate replacement.

    What is your evidence for this assertion?

    Now, Obama’s statement does not address any contacts with Blagojevich that members of his staff may or may not have made in this matter. But those sorts of contacts would certainly be normal and expected. What is extraordinary about this case is not that people contacted Blagojevich to opine on Obama’s Senate replacement, but that Blagojevich sought to literally sell the seat.

    Now, any individuals who sought to buy the seat are of course guilty of attempted bribery, just as Blagojevich would be guilty of soliciting a bribe, but at present there is no indication that this is the case.

  444. 444

    He’d have been many years from any viable weapons capability, even if he’d had the infrastructure to go forward, which he did not.

    Just to be clear, a couple of well placed bombs could have set his "weapons" program back ten years … if he had actually tried to start one.

    Could we have known he was doing that? Well, we had tracking information on every truckload of oil he was selling. Something tells me that weapons and weapon materiel would have been seen and tracked too. In fact, suggesting that we did not know exactly what his WMD status was before the war is an exercise in You Gotta Be Fucking Kidding Me. We knew every time he took a crap and how many pieces of toilet paper he used. Nothing moved into or out of that country that we didn’t know about.

  445. 445
    kormgar says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:

    You know what’s really sad in my mind…I’m personally quite sympathetic to many of the ideals which "conservatives" once supposedly championed.

    Distilled to its essence, my political philosophy is something of a hybrid of Jeffersonian classical liberalism with a huge dose of pragmatism and a healthy respect for the scientific method.

    In a normal era, that would make me an economic conservative (with a strong distrust of any extreme concentrations of economic power – oligopolies are just as bad as excessive government meddling) and a social libertarian.

    These days…it makes me a flaming leftist. Sigh. At least I’m not an ideologue.

  446. 446
    Allan says:

    So "Patriot," are you, in fact, Jonah Goldberg? Or do you link to him because he’s the object of your masturbatory fantasies?

  447. 447
    Snail Darter says:

    @USAPatriot:

    The truth bores you

    What are you Agent Mulder? You bore me dude with endless cliched insults mingled with tired GOP talking points.
    Shit like this.

    Your posts, including your last one, leave the strong impression you are mentally unfit.

    Give Dennis Miller a ring and let him program your troll-fu with some sparkling new insults, He’s an idiot, but your kind of idiot. Dude, your just about hopeless.

    Now I’m going to watch Nemo, my favorite movie alltime.

  448. 448

    For what it’s worth, the word "projection" has a very specific therapeutic meaning, and it isn’t what most people think it is. It refers quite specifically to the projection of unpleasant thoughts and feelings onto the therapist particularly in the context of therapy.

    Not exactly demi. See, we are all like pseudo-therapists here, many of us agree on much, but have little areas where we disagree and we debate these things not just because the news is so damned incredible in the last several years, but also to learn and teach and grow as individuals. Right now the patient is U-SAP, but, earlier, I had a message for you, and yes, it was therapeutic, if you would really look at it (and I meant what I said in email, if you are willing to discuss it).

    I expect one day in the not too distant future that I’ll be patient and you’ll be pseudo-therapist, I’m not perfect, none of us are (saying that, USAP is one really messed up case, huh? He’s gonna take a lot of work.)

  449. 449

    Did we run off USAPantload?

    Maybe he is looking up the current price for yellowcake on E-Bay?

  450. 450

    Actually, TZ, there’s quite a bit of disagreement about whether the Brits even believe their own "intel" about yellowcake. Obviously, they won’t speak to the issue in detail, but Parliamentary committees (both Butler and Taylor) have been progressively backing away form their claims, starting with "several sources", then "two sources", then "a non-documentary source", then silence. It appears that they were as hoodwinked as everyone else by the Niger forgeries, and took multiple citations of those forgeries to be multiple observations.

  451. 451
    kormgar says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    *grumbles* he always runs off whenever I really start having fun mocking him.

    Of course, I’d rather actually debate him on the points that are raised, but that prissy little pouty pants don’t play that way

  452. 452
    Mike in NC says:

    Did we run off USAPantload? Maybe he is looking up the current price for yellowcake on E-Bay?

    Clearly past the moron’s bedtime. Go back to the Harry Potter book, Bush-loving turd.

  453. 453
    kormgar says:

    @demimondian:

    Just wanted to mention that I really don’t think our positions are all that far off from each other…we both thought Hussein was a douchebag…etc

    I’m still not sure how I pissed you off so badly with my first post to you.

  454. 454

    Change "Parliamentary committees" to "Parliamentary committee reports" in 450. Sorry.

  455. 455
    USAPatriot says:

    @kormgar: Another lie – "Now we find that not only has the US been torturing prisoners for several years now…"

  456. 456
    USAPatriot says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: What Niger lie? Bush didn’t lie about Niger.

  457. 457
    USAPatriot says:

    @Mike in NC: What an intelligent comment Mike! LOL

  458. 458

    I’m still not sure how I pissed you off so badly with my first post to you.

    I have never had any disagreement here that could not have been settled by sending me a credit card number and expiration date.

    I suggest that you ask demi to send you his.

    Almost immediately on receipt, whatever tensions exist between you, gone.

  459. 459
    USAPatriot says:

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: More projection. Seek help, quickly.

  460. 460

    @kormgar: [sigh]

    Welcome to Balloon Juice. We have a smallish coterie of posters that DougJ refers to as "the merry pranksters". I’m one of them, although unlike most of the others, I troll under my own name. (By the by, TZ…did you know that one of us trolled for quite a while under the nick USAPatriot? Jus’ sayin’)

    As a result, very little of what I write should be taken at face value. In particular, you can’t trust me to tell you truly what I think about anything. (Yeah, there’s a lot of meta there. Sorry.) More than that, you can depend on my parsing my words to death.

    (E.g. posters here think I support the death penalty because I think that Hussein’s sentence was just. Just because it was deserved doesn’t mean we should have lowered ourselves to execute it. The death penalty is a barbarous aberration, and the sooner we abolish it, the better.)

    In any case, welcome! I’m looking forward to seeing you around a lot in the future. I think you’ll fit in here very well.

  461. 461
    USAPatriot says:

    @kormgar: He didn’t say "no personal contact" he said "no contact." Sending a staffer is contact.

  462. 462

    @TheHatOnMyCat: I’ve already sent you mine several times — it seems that somebody starts making odd charges to Romanian "Adult Chat Rooms" right after I send it to you. That means I have to keep going back to the CC company and getting a new number. I really wish you’d take better care of it.

  463. 463
  464. 464
    Mike in NC says:

    The Bush Legacy Project.

    AKA Arlington National Cemetery, which they’ve been busy filling up these past several years. I used to work in the Pentagon and fantasized breaking into Rummy’s office on the midwatch and turning over the goods to the MSM, but they’d just ignore them after all…

  465. 465

    What Niger lie? Bush didn’t lie about Niger.

    Bill Clinton didn’t have sex with that woman, either.

  466. 466
  467. 467

    @TheHatOnMyCat: No, Bush didn’t lie about Niger. Wrenches and branshes lie about Niger, in an untidy sprawl, perhaps, but not George Bush.

  468. 468

    it seems that somebody starts making odd charges to Romanian "Adult Chat Rooms" right after I send it to you.

    Send me something with higher available credit. The dollar is falling and those Romanians drive a hard bargain.

  469. 469
    USAPatriot says:

    @TheHatOnMyCat: You have Bush’s DNA on a piece of yellowcake? LOL

  470. 470

    That’s pure fantasy.

    Your refrigerator is running, you better go get it.

  471. 471

    You have Bush’s DNA on a piece of yellowcake? LOL

    Not a bad analogy, actually.

    Hey, where is that darned yellowcake, anyway?

    Under all that cash they found in Saddam’s bunker?

    No wait, Bush said it was under the sofa cushions, in that hilarious comedy piece he did about the missing WMDs.

  472. 472

    TZ? What time are you meeting Jack? Just curious.

    Oh, and when I walk in, should I go left or right?

  473. 473

    @USAPatriot: He said

    I had no contact with the governor or his office, and so I was not aware of what was happening

    He also said,

    I want to gather all the facts about any staff contact that may have taken place. We’ll have those in the next few days and we’ll present them.

    In the context of the two statements, it is clear that he was referring to direct contact in the first.

  474. 474

    TZ? What time are you meeting Jack? Just curious.

    Mark? In about an hour.

    For some reason, Looking Glass and Brandy are in my head….

  475. 475

    Mark? In about an hour.

    I thought you were meeting Jack with Mark? (think about it).

    Brandy too? Wonderful.

  476. 476

    Oh, and when I walk in, should I go left or right?

    I will probably start in the big room. If I am not in there I will be chasing those guys around in the small room to do some equipment experiments, I will be back shortly.

  477. 477

    I thought you were meeting Jack with Mark? (think about it).

    Ah, that Jack. Well I was looking forward to meeting Brandy.
    If Jack shows up, that will be fine too.

  478. 478
    Doug H. (Fausto no more) says:

    I was thinking that USAStalinist was some A-grade spoofery, but then I realized that no spoof worth their salt would be re-hashing failed arguments from 2004 that drove Bush into his current ditch of fail. No, what we have here is a Stalwart Member of the Party.

    So here’s to you, USAStalinist, long may you rant about how Bush was right. With any luck, before we know it, the GOP will have joined Kim Campbell and John Major on the Island of Misfit Tories and we’ll have fine folk like you to thank for it. Muchly appreciated, comrade!

  479. 479

    Okay, well, Brandy without Jack is fine. ;)

  480. 480
    cleek says:

    So here’s to you, USAStalinist, long may you rant about how Bush was right.

    from this month’s Harpers Index:

    Percentage of Russians today who approve of the direction their country took under Stalin: 37

    Bush: less popular than Stalin.

  481. 481
    a psychoanalyst says:

    For what it’s worth, the word "projection" has a very specific therapeutic meaning, and it isn’t what most people think it is. It refers quite specifically to the projection of unpleasant thoughts and feelings onto the therapist particularly in the context of therapy.

    Actually, it’s the defensive projection of disturbing wishes. And it is perfectly fine to use the term outside of the therapeutic context, although many of the posters are using it incorrectly.

  482. 482
    Gravenstone says:

    Congrats John! Apparently you’ve veered into the path of the Big Time. What with getting your very own live (or is it Memorex?) tap dancing GOP issue trollbot to hug and squeeze (and you may call him George, if you wish).

  483. 483
    M Colins says:

    Its amusing that the attacks on Strata focus in on the claim it was Obama’s staff on not him that talked to Blagojeviches people, accusing him of all things of reading comprehension problems. It seemed to me his exact point refuted this blather from the outraged Left which was America is not fooled or beguiled by parse words which dont change the reality was that Obamas team talked to Blagojevich and that counter proposals which came back to Rod HAD to have had the input of Obama himself.

    They say its not the crime but the coverup. Thats was always Clintons problem as well, lying unnecessarily. Obama could have simply said yeah we talked to him of course we did, we have an interest in who is the next Senator from Illinois. But he came back with some stuff we felt was unethical blah blah etc etc. Obama could have reinforced his image as the anointed one but he apparently believes he can say anything he wants.

    Someone already said this and its a great line. "Chicago is a political cesspool and Obama is a child of that cesspool. NOw he wold have us believe he’s the only virgin in the whorehouse!" Priceless!

  484. 484

    Congrats John! Apparently you’ve veered into the path of the Big Time. What with getting your very own live (or is it Memorex?) tap dancing GOP issue trollbot to hug and squeeze (and you may call him George, if you wish).

    I can assure you U-SAP doesn’t change the equation of Balloon Juice one bit, with the slight exception that he’s a bit entertaining, like poking at a half dead insect that you know would bite you and possibly make you ill if it were not on it’s last leg.

  485. 485

    @Laura W:

    I found that very interesting indeed, and I am grateful to him for researching it on my lazy behalf.

    My pleasure.

  486. 486
    El Cid says:

    The major Bush lie about Niger was the suggestion that had Saddam somehow gotten more low grade uranium from Niger that this would have represented a threat to us.

    Iraq already possessed thousands and thousands and thousands of tons of uranium, and a bit more from Niger (lie though the claim was, from its forgery to its logic) would have not threatened us.

    So, again, the lie was the suggestion that if Iraq got uranium from Niger that this represented a threat to the USA.

    It would not. Iraq getting more uranium from Niger would not threaten us. Iraq getting more uranium from anywhere would not have threatened us.

    The threat was made up, whole cloth, and some ‘plausible deniability’ game between (a) Bush lied and (b) Bush knowingly quoted other people who lied and (c) Bush didn’t give the slightest sh*t whether other people were lying or not, this is uninteresting.

    They flat out lied to the American people, they knew it, and it doesn’t matter, because they got the war they wanted.

  487. 487
    Cyndi says:

    Let’s see…. Fitzgerald made it clear that Obama was guilty of absolutely nothing wrong. Blago is on tape saying (bleep bleep) some pretty foul things about Obama and calling him some rather foul names. The two men don’t like each other and have nothing to do with each other. Guilt by association is corruption only in the mind of the person looking at the situation who WANTS to find something wrong.

    Blago was just about the only Democratic governor who was not on the stage at the Democratic National Convention: this is almost unheard of when the nominee belongs to a member of his own party. He didn’t campaign for Obama. He didn’t appear on the stump, nor was he in Grant Park the night Obama won the election. The only thing Obama is guilty of with Blago is having a governor who’s a crook. Sources stated that Obama was very wary of and disliked Blago.

    Mr. Obama has said he has never spoken with the governor about the seat. But Mr. Obama’s aides have declined for five days to answer publicly questions about what discussions they had about the seat, with several saying they were doing so at the request of the office of Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the United States attorney for the Northern District of Illinois.

    In announcing the charges against Mr. Blagojevich, Mr. Fitzgerald said the president-elect was not implicated in the case.

    The criminal complaint quotes Mr. Blagojevich as saying at one point that Mr. Obama’s aides were not willing to give him anything more than “appreciation” in return for appointing a candidate they favored.

  488. 488
    jim says:

    As concern-trolls go, I’d give Strata about 3 out of 10 … when your BS falls flat in the very next sentence of your source-material, you’re living in a fantasy-world – one where people have full access to the Interwebs yet are mortally allergic to Google.

    Little wonder the Republic Of Wingnuttia is having a massive circlejerk over this … having just helped to ruin their own home-team, they’re jonesing for a little pick-me-up. This weak sauce will have to suffice while they wait for Chief Editor Korir to unleash the fury of Teh Obama Tape Of DOOOOOOOM. Rock on, nutbars, rock on.

    ———

    "In his State of the Union address on January 28, 2003, President Bush said: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
    But as early as March 2002, there was uncertainty within the intelligence community regarding the sale of uranium to Iraq."
    ———
    Yeah, because a nation that was (& likely still IS) awash in its own domestically produced uranium (all of which was later located by the US Army moldering away in rusty barrels, inconveniently untouched) won’t settle for anything less than that fancy imported brand.

    I presume there’s also "uncertainty" over exports of coal to Newcastle. Of all the babyshit disinfo that BushCo peddled to bang the war-drums, the uranium angle was the weakest.

    Thinking: it’s not just for breakfast anymore.

  489. 489
    Joe R. says:

    #4: "Christ, this is going to be a long four years."

    Your guy won. It’s still going to be a long four years? How fucking impossible to please are you?

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