For the record, I really do not care about Joe the Plumber’s background. All he did was ask a candidate for President a question, something I wish everyone got the chance to do at least once in their life. More power to him, and Obama seemed to enjoy the conversation, to boot. If I have the background right, Obama was right near his house, so he was not a plant, and then McCain foolishly thrust the poor SOB into the middle of a heated election. If anything, it makes me think less of the idiots in the McCain campaign, something I thought impossible. Now there are actual MSM reporters going all through his shit and posting it everywhere, and quite frankly, it sucks. Leave him alone. I am not saying you all have done anything wrong because I have not had time to check the comments today, but I looked at memeorandum and saw that mess and wanted to preempt any of it here.
Granted, the right-wing whinging is particularly rich after the Beauchamp/Schiavo/Graeme Frost incidents, and the attempts to blame media conduct in regards to Joe the Plumber on the Obama campaign are stupid and predictable, but just leave the guy alone. I don’t agree with him on a lot of issues, but the guy deserves the privacy I would want for myself and for the rest of you. And this, from the Counter-Sniffer in Chief, is just ridiculous.
On the other hand, it seems I have once again failed to be cynical enough in the Verizon/McCain thing.
At any rate, I may or may not be back later today, so here is a thread for you to talk about something other than that poor guy from Ohio who now has people digging all through his shit. Show some god damned decency, everyone.
*** Update ***
Folks, there is a marked difference between reacting to stupid things he tells the press and rooting through shit on the internet speculating about him. Comment all you want to any idiotic things he says.
*** Update #2 ***
And I have to say that this, coming from the Counter Sniffer in Chief and high priestess of the wingnut lynch mob, is just ridiculous.
Ned Raggett
So how about them Dodge…oh.
Ned Raggett
More seriously, I’ve been muttering this on my blog for a bit but if you haven’t been going through all your state/local races with a fine tooth comb, now’s the time. Don’t wait until the last minute!
Quaker in a Basement
I agree that folks ought to leave Joe alone. However, I do wonder if the McCain campaign asked him if it was OK to invoke his name at the debate.
Had it not been for last night’s debate, Joe would be a YouTube moment and nothing more.
Sherrell
Well I agree for the most part, but Joe the plumber has voluntarily participated in mutiple press conferences and interviews..and may make an appearance at a McCain rally…so while there are calls to respect his privacy he obviously isn’t rebuking his press coverage…
What I think is more frightening is that Joe the Plumber has made himself more accessible to the media than Sarah Palin the current candidate for Vice President of the United States
jnfr
Yes, sir.
liberal
@Sherrell:
Agree completely.
Assuming he’s not a plant, it can be reasonably argued that he should be left alone if it ended with his chat with Obama.
However, no one forced him to continue with the interviews with the MSM. At that point, he becomes fair game.
Bubblegum Tate
How can we have gotten this far without knowing anything about Joe the Plumber’s countertops?
dslak
Unless liberal bloggers are harassing this guy on the phone, or spying on him to check out his countertops, there really isn’t an equivalence here.
While it may not be his fault that McCain made him the centerpiece of last night’s debate, it’s clear by all the interviews he’s done now that he’s no wilting flower.
If he wants to bolster his position vis-a-vis "a guy just looking for a straight answer," he would have admitted to having voted for McCain in the primary rather than just claiming to be "undecided."
Him calling Obama a socialist rather gives the game away, doesn’t it?
Joshau Norton
Sorry, but stupid people have to pay the price for being stupid. Karma demands it. You’d think they’d learn after Jeff Gannon, the Ms. "Flag Pin" plant, the "lower my taxes and start more wars" conventioneer schmuck who promptly got rolled by a hooker….
It’s beginning to appear that JOE may have been paid UNDER the TABLE, has NO LICENSE, and may END UP IN JAIL for BACK TAXES. Poor sap.
Suuuure he’s "independent". All the asshats on Fox claim the same thing.
gbear
Ummm… John…?
Don’t check the comments today.
KRK
Hilarious post at VetVoice demonstrating just how far some fools take the "liberal bias" nonsense. Brandon (and others?) had done a number of earlier posts specifically debunking McCain’s claim that he’s been a great supporter of veterans, generally linking to the official US Congress website to show McCain’s votes on specific bills.
So in a "mailbag" post from yesterday, Brandon notes that he received the following email:
Yes, something more reliable and "mainstream" than the congressional record is needed to demonstrate how McCain voted on a given bill. Bizarro world.
(Of course the mailbag post also included examples of garden variety "your a dizgrace" blah, blah, blah.)
dslak
Bill O’Reilly isn’t biased. He can’t be – he’s an independent!
Stevenovitch
I’d be happy to leave him alone, (and honestly the background checks are a bit much.. who cares), but he really needs to stop doing interviews spreading his idiotically simplistic take on tax policy if doesn’t want the criticism.
Also, it’d be nice if the press would actually take this as an opportunity to go into a more nuanced explanation of how progressive tax works rather than allow him to spout off his "penalized for being successful" bullshit.
Gaucho Politico
his name is not even joe its sam. part of what is fueling this is that anytime someone peels back layer we find out less and less is true about the situation mccain tried to sandbag obama with. people now just want to see how far down the rabbit hole we can go on this.
Punchy
Uh….John? This guy’s been giving voluntary pressers all day. He ain’t hiding from the spotlight. He’s not asked the reporters to leave his property. And if he’s going to stand up there and slam Obama’s tax proposal, I find it pretty damn rich AND apropos that this goon hasn’t even paid all his taxes.
IOW, he can stop this whenever he wants, and he’s VOLUNTARILY making this worse by every minute he decides he still wants the damn spotlight.
jim
Sure, leave him alone. Unless he actually is Charles Keating’s grandson.
Jeff
What if Joe is a plant and a member of the Keating family? Would that change your mind? If not, I’m a gullible asshole.
gbear
Actually, the one interesting thing about Joe that came up is this:
Due to Ohio’s freakout about voter fraud, Joe’s not going to be able to vote in November. He’ll have to use a provisional ballot until he can prove that he is who he is.
Tim
I agree with you with regard to whether he’s a licensed plumber or owes taxes or whatever, that’s a bunch of bullshit.
But if it’s true that he’s the son of a Charles Keating company exec who served time for the S&L scandal – well that’s just fucking brilliant. And completely in play to use against McCain.
peach flavored shampoo
Why would you doubt them? Aren’t they "fair and balanced"?
Josh Huaco
@Punchy:
And if it’s true that he’s Charles Keating’s son-in-law or grandson, another way to bring up Maverick!™’s lying bullshit about being a reformer. That and it perfectly encapsulates the Republican racket of deceit and selfishness.
liberal
@Tim:
His owing taxes is entirely relevant, because tax cheats don’t have any business bitching about the unfairness of the tax code.
Stevenovitch
Um, why exactly?
Keep in mind we’ve just spent the better part of this month arguing that guilt-by-association is bullshit.
Joshau Norton
More like "fairly unbalanced".
rumpole
I’m with Sherrell on this one. Had he said to the media what you put on your blog, namely, that "Look–all I did was ask a candidate for president a question. That’s it. I didn’t ask to be a campaign prop." If the McCain campaign asked him if he could be used in this way and he said yes, then tough. (And if they didn’t ask, then that says a lot more about them than it does about Joe.). And once he called press conferences, then he becomes a legitimate (though minor) public figure. (Certainly no Sammy Davis Jr.).
If they didn’t ask, I do feel for the guy. His back taxes are a legitimate reason to be concerned about hikes–he can’t pay the ones he owes. And he can’t pick his family.
Josh Huaco
@Stevenovitch:
Apples and oranges. Trying to tie Obama to Ayers was ridiculous because there’s nothing to tie them together, as far as political positions went. This Joe the Plumber (which sounds like a character from a porn film) guy is just another corrupt, lying, greedy asshole, like Keating and the entire Republican party.
gbear
Hey John, are we doing a good enough job of not talking about that poor guy from Ohio who now has people digging all through his shit?
dslak
Yes, that particular argument is certainly a strawman. Nobody who supports it claims that progressive taxation is needed in order to penalize the successful.
Tim
Sure they do. That’s like arguing that a pot smoker doesn’t have the right to complain about the unfairness of anti-drug laws.
Jeff
Yep, I am a gullible asshole.
dslak
He did say "business," not "right." Presumably he’s not saying that the guy doesn’t have a right to complain.
Tim
@Jeff
Well, it was fun for a moment anyway.
Bob In Pacifica
I don’t want to leave Joe the Plumber alone.
I’m going over to Booman Trib.
Tim
@dslak
How does that make any difference?
liberal
@Tim:
Sure they do.
Wrong.
When a pot-smoker smokes pot, there’s no injury to non-pot-smokers.
When someone cheats on their taxes, those of us who don’t cheat have to make it up. At which point they forfeit their right to bitch about it.
Of course, maybe the guy’s not a tax cheat—maybe he couldn’t actually afford the taxes due to some shattering life event. But there’s no evidence for that until he proffers it.
eglenn
Best political ad I’ve seen this year. I’m still tearing up…
liberal
(missing block quote on first sentence there…)
Zifnab
Wouldn’t it be great if the Obama voting drivers took Joe’s story and absolutely ran with it? "I may not agree with your opinion, but I’ll die for you’re right to vote for it!" Turn him into the poster child for disenfranchised voters in Ohio? Offer to pay his legal bills to protest his right to vote? Completely snowball the whole damn thing? You could riff on taxes, too. HOW DARE JOE PAY $XXX IN TAXES AND BE DENIED HIS GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO CHOOSE HIS POLITICAL LEADERSHIP!!!11!1!eleventybillionandone!
/dreaming
I could totally go for that.
Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin
No one should have the dogs set on him just for voicing an opinion in public (even a stupid one). If he keeps seeking publicity, it’s a different matter (as others have noted).
liberal
@dslak:
Of course he has a "right" to complain, in the sense of freedom of speech.
I’m saying he has no moral standing to complain, assuming he’s a bona fide tax cheat.
jakester
I don’t know, if I had a lien against me, I would probably want taxes lowered a hell of a lot as well.
John, I guess I agree with you in principle that it’s a bad idea to go dredging up all this stuff about someone who gets suddenly injected into public life like this. I think the left in particular should be more vigilant about such things. But the guy was so obviously lying, and then smarmy about it, and the public records are just so THERE for the lookin’ at…
Tim
@liberal
So he has to prove his innocence before he has any right to protest the fairness of a proposed tax code? That’s just nonsense.
liberal
@Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin:
He already sought publicity, as others have noted; I don’t know why your standard is "keep seeking," when no one forced him to do those press interviews.
Stevenovitch
Owing back taxes isn’t exactly uncommon if you’re running a small business or if yourincome isn’t stable. I don’t see how that makes him corrupt or forfeits his right to talk about tax policy. It’s ridiculous.
The only problem here is this guy clearly isn’t in the situation he’s bitching about, knows next to nothing about the way the taxes he’s bitching about work, and yet his opinion on tax policy is now being broadcast, unchallenged, to millions of Americans as if it were an informed one.
ThymeZoneThePlumber
Looks like McPain vetted Joe about as well as he vetted Sarah Palin.
Oh well, too bad, so sad.
As for Joe, he didn’t have to show up for the morning shows today. He talked about his "15 minutes of fame." Good for him. People who show up for the Today Show don’t get to choose exactly how much fame they get and how it gets handled. Once they step into the maw, they are in it, and unless anyone looking at Joe is doing something illegal, or compromising his personal safety or harassing his relatives, I say, let the chips fall where they may. He is the one who stuck himself in the spotlight. Let him deal.
I also happen to think that the McCain people wanted this, so, let them have it. Everything they have done so far has blown up in their pants, so more power to them.
The Other Steve
I heard he has granite countertops.
Tim
@Stevenovitch
Agreed.
Xanthippas
Agreed. Just because he got to ask his question in front of a camera, and then promptly get adopted by the right and McCain, doesn’t mean anybody is entitled to dig through his background to "prove" his a hypocrite or a liar. He’s no different from any other jackass who expresses an opinion (myself included) and last time I checked we don’t vet people’s backgrounds just because they have an opinion about something.
So? He’s not running for office. The fact that he’s been willing to talk to the media or appear at campaign events means it’s time to dig through public records and put whatever you can find about him online? What you say really just sounds like the "he asked for it" defense.
I’m not at all sympathetic to the anti-tax crowd, but I still would think someone who owes back taxes has the most right to complain about the unfairness of taxes, justified or no.
Comrade Stuck
From what I’ve learned Joe is willingly becoming a "joe six pack" spokesman for the ever so populist middle class hero John Mccain. No to personal destruction and snooping about him. Yes to investigate the veracity of his musings. When he shuts his yap then forget he exists.
liberal
@Tim:
You’re really saying that someone who cheats on his taxes has the same right as everyone else to bitch about paying taxes?
Give your head a shake, man. You’re confused.
Again, I agree that it’s possible he’s not a tax cheat, but if he’s a hardship case, he can offer that information. Right now the evidence out there says "tax cheat".
thefncrow
@jakester: Except, of course, that Obama is going to lower his taxes, since he makes less than a quarter of a million dollars a year.
This guy is endlessly bitching because, one day, in his fantasies, he’ll own a business that makes him more than $250,000 a year, and he’ll desperately need that extra 3% that Barack Obama wants to tax on the money he makes above and beyond the $250,000 mark.
liberal
@Xanthippas:
LOL!
"I didn’t pay my fair share of taxes, so therefore you had to pay more to make it up. And now I’m going to bitch about paying taxes."
ThymeZoneThePlumber
He did ask for it. He could have responded "leave me alone" to the Today Show. But there he was this morning, doing a Today interview and saying he wasn’t sure he wanted the attention. Right. Uh huh. He didn’t look too unhappy this morning.
They were happy to have him be a poster boy for McCain’s useless economic policies. Okay, he’s a poster boy.
Maybe McCain will try a few more of these gimmicks? He had great luck with the Palin gimmick, and the Joe gimmick may turn out to be another great success for him.
liberal
@Xanthippas:
So what? Last time I checked journalists aren’t running for public office, either.
Now, if some multimillionaire journalist or pundit bitches about taxes, it’s no one’s business to ask about what his/her salary actually is?
No one here is saying "get his divorce records!" because it’s not on point.
The fact that he hasn’t paid his taxes is entirely on point.
jake 4 that 1
Don’t make John pull this blog over!
chopper
i’m just waiting for michelle ‘check his countertops’ malkin to come out and say what a travesty it is that teh evil liberahls are looking into poor joe’s background.
then the circle of stupid will be complete.
seriously tho, i listened to this joe dude and he sounds like a right nimrod. meh, i say.
Xanthippas
I guess this is the attitude I don’t get. Dude wants to express his opinion on TV, and everything that anybody can find out about him is fair game? Like I said above…he’s NOT running for office, so why exactly should it be relevant that he is or isn’t a hypocrite. Let’s recall that the Frosts also chose to put themselves in the public eye (though hardly in the sense or to the degree they were expecting of course), and that they did so was a defense the right-wingers used to snooping through their personal lives. We hated that at the time right, but now we’re justifying it? What’s the difference?
Comrade Stuck
No it’s not. I ran one for about 7 years, and the first three, I was way behind on my SS and Medicare tax and didn’t get 100% caught up till I gave it up. Then I payed up in full. Which was more than most of my competitors did, who acted like the IRS didn’t exist. I am sympathetic to small business owners, unless they just say fuck it and don’t pay anything. Looks like Joe does not fall into that category.
Xanthippas
So was the fact that the Frost’s lived in a big house, at least according to the right-wingers. What’s the difference?
HyperIon
not paying taxes is NOT the same as cheating on your taxes.
please, people, get a grip.
Mrs. Peel
Get the frig over yourself. The point is that we’re not mindless sponges who are just going to accept what ever drivel they want to dish out. If someone wants the glory, they better have the guts to go through what it takes to prove that they’re the best example of what they’re preaching about.
Pearl-clutchers need not reply….
Xanthippas
Yeah, and Graeme Frost was the "poster boy" for the Dems on SCHIP. And the Frost’s addressed the media several times as well. But it wasn’t okay to dig through their private lives to confirm the veracity of their accounts. Again, what’s the difference?
Comrade Stuck
@Xanthippas:
It would be nice if you took the time to actually read my comment before responding. Therefore, I will repeat the relevant part.
liberal
Comrade Stuck wrote,
Yes, he doesn’t fall into that category, because he’s not a small business owner.
Xanthippas
You didn’t answer my question.
liberal
HyperIon wrote,
No, but it’s information that certainly increases the likelihood you’re a tax cheat.
jakester
@thefncrow: You’re absolutely right. I think a whole *lot* of (white) middle class conservatives have this fantasy, and continue it well into middle age, and by the time it doesn’t come true they have a whole lot of emotional energy invested in the idea that if ONLY they hadn’t had to do this or that (pay SS tax or been passed over for a loan in favor of a minority) then they would have MADE it, god damn it, because they worked hard and that should be ENOUGH.
It’s almost as if they’re … bitter about the whole thing. And so cling to … oh, never mind.
chopper
that is a bit goofy. you don’t go on the fucking today show to say ‘leave me alone’.
Xanthippas
I did read your comment. And it seems to me like the difference between investigating the "veracity of his musings" and "personal destruction and snooping" is one of degree, the determination being made based on whether you agree with him or not. Which really doesn’t sound that much different from what the right-wingers thought about the Frosts.
Mrs. Peel
The difference is that this isn’t a bunch of smoke and mirrors used to distract people who can’t think straight anyway. He has as much credibility as an drug mule complaining about the "unfairness" of the drug laws.
Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin
I agree; I was addressing the general case. One road to fascism is having a web of laws so complex that everybody is guilty of something, then going after the "troublemakers". I’m not saying that’s happening here.
Comrade Stuck
Stop with the Frost comparisons already. It’s apples and Oranges. The Frost’s presented themselves as an example of why a single issue was important. They did not go around spouting Ideological pontifications for one candidate 3 weeks before an election.
liberal
@Xanthippas:
I didn’t follow that case in detail, so I’m not necessarily saying there’s any difference.
I’m saying that his not paying taxes makes his bitching about taxes questionable.
I’m also saying that much of the rest of his life isn’t relevant, like the details of his divorce, or the fact that he’s raising his kid when usually the woman has at least 50% custody. And hence is off limits.
Xanthippas
That’s a distinction without a difference, at least in this discussion. It sounds like what you’re really saying is "that was a minor issue, but this election thing is really important" as if that justifies digging into his background. And I’ll stop with the comparisons when they stop seeming apt.
jakester
@Xanthippas: I think the problem with the Frost situation is not that people were suspicious about their claims and then used publicly available evidence to verify it, but that they went so freaking far over the top, to the extent that they went by the home, and then discarded any and all exculpatory evidence. I mean, going after the dad is one thing, but they looked into any nook & cranny of those kids’ lives. As if what they were claiming about their situation wasn’t perfectly realistic.
liberal
@Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin:
Fair enough.
Xanthippas
Fair enough.
Comrade Stuck
Well, if you can’t or won’t see the difference then I’m talking with a dishonest person or an idiot. His musing’s thus far have been presented solely on ideology of the wingnut kind. And in support of and with the prodding of the Mccain campaign, I said don’t snoop on his personal life. Whether I disagree with him is irrelevant. Whether or not his political musings in favor of one party and it’s candidate is relevant, as is the truthiness of what he’s saying in that regard..
Zifnab
@Xanthippas: The difference is that we’re not all giant douchebags. The Frost story was sad and foolish because it was such a ridiculous witch hunt. Nailing a small business owner for being a grand behind on his taxes isn’t any less silly than nailing a guy for having a concrete kitchen while receiving subsidized insurance.
Simply being behind on taxes does not make you a "cheat". It happens all the time, to the best and the worst. If you can show me Joe’s numbered bank account in the Camen Islands that holds his untaxed business fortune, then perhaps we can talk.
jake 4 that 1
Oh noes! The KKK does not endorse Barack Obama!
When a white supremacist group has trouble in Oklahoma, that group is approaching near fatal levels of fail.
Quaker in a Basement
For those who like rich, chewy irony, check out who’s getting a case of the vapors over all the questions about Joe’s bona fides.
Xanthippas
Fair enough. I guess I’m old school enough to think that people’s personal lives don’t disqualify them from having an opinion unless they really are public figures (and not some jackass who just manages to get himself on TV a few times.) To answer my own question, I think the difference is that generally left-wing bloggers will dig only to point out personal hypocrisy, whereas right-wing bloggers would prefer to humiliate and destroy so that their unfortunate target either loses credibility or is afraid to express an opinion publicly again (because said bloggers are conscience-less assholes.) Or as Zifnab puts it: "The difference is that we’re not all giant douchebags." Unfortunately that doesn’t provide much of a principled guidance for how much digging into someone’s background you’re allowed to do (you can only do it if you’re nice about it!) so I just say don’t in general whatever side you’re on.
Comrade Stuck
I don’t mind arguing with someone when the points made are rational and somewhat logical. But your being obtuse intentionally, I think. And the above statement is just absurd on it’s face. I did not have a problem with Malkin et al checking to see if the Frost’s basic claim on their eligibility for health care help was legit. It’s when they went nuts and harassed them long after it was found they were legit and long after the Frost’s requested privacy and stopped talking themselves. I said the same thing about Joe in my original comment.
Xanthippas
Comments like that are what have me wondering what point you’re trying to make. "He’s expressing wingnut ideas, so now we’re permitted to probe his background but only to determine personal veracity and no further." It’s entirely possible that I’m neither dishonest nor an idiot, but rather that you’re just not explaining yourself very well.
And for what it’s worth I would think the fact that I might owe back taxes is part of my "personal life" that I don’t exactly want displayed all over the intertubes.
Tom
He compared Obama to a tap-dancing Sammy Davis Jr. Fuck the racist prick.
Zuzu's Petals
Well, Joe doesn’t seem to mind using his Facebook page as a very public forum to spout off his oh-so-well-informed opinons:
Facebook
ThymeZoneThePlumber
I don’t know, your strat man is too stuffed with straw.
I’m saying, whatever is available and legally usable, is fair game. I am not saying put a spycam in his bedroom or pry into his medical records. I am saying, his public footprint is now in the spotlight. Turn on the light and let the chips fall where they may.
Guy wants to be a placeholder for 20 million imaginary people? Fine, let’s get to know him … well.
Guy doesn’t want that? Then let him just say, you know what, I have no comment, I am not available for the Today show. Please leave me alone. Tell the McCain campaign to quit talking about me. I am not a spokesman for them, and I don’t want my name used in connection with them.
I think the story goes away then.
ThymeZoneThePlumber
You don’t go on the Today show when you want to be left alone. You stay away from the Today show. You don’t seek out the cameras and then complain about being looked at.
Does he want privacy? Then tell him to stay off the Today show and stop spouting McCain talking points in front of microphones.
Does he want to be treated like an "undecided voter?" Then tell him to stop pretending to be one or else tell him to tell the McCain campaign to stop pretending he is one.
ThymeZoneThePlumber
Wow, so the Middle Class is really a socialist trick? Who knew?
Sounds like Joe has some interesting ideas, I think we should hear all of them over the next 19 days. As many as possible. I think Joe should start stumping with Sarah Palin. She wants Alaska to secede from the Union, and Joe wants to stop paying taxes. They’d be a dynamic duo.
Comrade Stuck
To put it simply, so it’s harder to obfuscate. Joe the plumber has willingly and apparently enthusiastically become a spokesperson for the Mccain campaign. And what he says in that regard is fair game for scrutiny. There, I said it a little different way than has been said repeatedly by others on this thread, including Senor Cole.
Zuzu's Petals
Wow, judging by the entry dates, it looks like Joe set up his Facebook page over the last day or so.
In other words, he’s publicizing himself.
OniHanzo
What he says in regard to the McCain campaign is absolutely fair game. He deserves to be hit on his ideology, no hesitation.
But his address, his tax records, his divorce record, all of his personal data is none of our goddamn business. And I cringe at any individual who is able to balm their conscience on this and yet become so rightly angered at the privacy violations this current administration has involved itself with. Protean ethics and the belief that privacy is a "quaint idea" should be reserved for those psychopaths at Redstate.
Fucking distraction bait is all that it is.
Stevenovitch
The funny thing here is that that isn’t his facebook. There’s a big clue in his profile:
*** THIS IS A FAN PAGE, I’M NOT JOE ***
Zuzu's Petals
We may get our chance.
Looks like McCain just can’t wait to get him up on that stage:
Politico
Zuzu's Petals
@Stevenovitch:
I thought that was just an entry under the YouTube link. Weird that the entries are under his name. However, as I know little about how Facebook pages are set up, I’ll take your word for it.
As it’s too late to edit my earlier comments, I’ll just hope this serves as a caveat. With apologies if I did indeed get it wrong.
Brick Oven Bill
A good plumber or electrician can make well into the six figures if he runs his own shop. This is damaging to the self-esteem of a good percentage of the nation’s lawyers, who make less money. I enjoy observing the bruised egos.
Jess
It seems obvious that both McCain and Joe are quite eager to construct a mythical American Everyman out of Joe and use it as a campaign tool. That being the case, and Joe being a consenting adult, I don’t see why we shouldn’t compare the myth to reality and point out the gaps. I don’t think character assassination would be any more effective than it is nice, but noting that he’s not a licensed plumber, doesn’t own a small business, and is hardly an undecided voter, is appropriate. Pointing out that he would benefit more under Obama’s tax plan than McCain’s would be the best move. Digging into his tax problems is going over the line a bit, but it does blunt his usefulness as a GOP tool, doesn’t it?
binzinerator
A commenter said he’s going to be featured at a Johnny Drama rally. Sounds to me like he’s turning himself into a public figure.
I think some questions about him, even whether he’s really a plumber, are legit. At the very least, it is fact-checking the assertions made by McCain. Are the figures on the level? The Blade says this guy isn’t even a plumber. It is significant if Plumber guy isn’t what McCain says he is.
Now that Joe Plumber is pursuing his fame, I don’t think trying to find out if he’s what he says he is wrong.
SilentPatriot
The problem here is that the media is treating this guy as a bona fide, salt of the earth undecided voter. Turns out, he’s a registered Republican who voted in the GOP primary. The guy asked a legitimate question and got a legitimate response. He’s probably not a McCain plant, but he’s sure as hell no "undecided independent."
The guy does deserve privacy, but I don’t think is inappropriate, given his line of attack on Obama, to dig up the fact that he’s not even a license plumber, and that he has an outstanding lien placed against him for failing to pay his taxes.
The attack kind of rings hollow when you take all these things into account.
t jasper parnell
Er
Red State
t jasper parnell
Then again maybe all is not lost
from the comments.
HRA
Over in memeorandum, it’s all Joe aka Samuel. Why would McCain keep bringing up Joe the plumber 20+ times last night? IMO, this was a just in case Ayers and ACORN does not work to our complete advantage ace in the hole for getting tomorrow’s press tied up. Plus it’s free.
Once again we are distracted from the real issues of the election. It’s exactly what the McCain campaign is always doing lately.
Zuzu's Petals
I thought he was pretty clear when he said he already had his mind made up.
Zuzu's Petals
@t jasper parnell:
Right, because the Lord God of the Universe had to cheat to win an election.
Malron
Quit feeling sorry for the guy. He wanted to be a McCain surrogate so he’s being vetted like he’s one. If Joe didn’t want the attention he should have said "no comment when Katie Couric called him last night. Once he started running around doing interviews we have every right to want to know who this guy is, especially if he’s calling Obama a socialist and pretending to be an expert on tax policy. Worst of all, studies are showing that Joe the Schmoe will get a tax BREAK under Obama’s plan – exactly what Obama told the guy when they met face to face.
Zuzu's Petals
Should I be worried that the Gallup Daily Tracking Poll "traditional model" shows Obama only two points ahead of McCain (49 to 47)?
PollingReport
Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s
I think the Keating thing is a brilliant misdirection on behalf of the Democrats. Why? Because the Keating connection comes up on both sides. On the DEM side as the "OMG, he’s related to Charles Keating who bribed McCain" and on the REP side because now they have to deny he’s related to him and talk about Keating. That’s a win-win.
Comrade Stuck
Don’t think so. I never put much stock in one poll and this year especially so. There isn’t a traditional model for this election. To many variables with some unique IE Obama AA.
and the severe economic problems and an incumbent president with the lowest sustained poll numbers ever. This is an electoral shift election and nobody has a good handle on how much and won’t until after the election.
Looking at all the polls and the trends, it looks like Obama has a stable 5 to 8 point lead, minus whatever Bradley Effect that will unfold on election day.
demimondian
Hush! Don’t let them know.
And, more than that, he or she can make that kind of money working 40 hour weeks with an unusual specialty. For instance, I have friends who’ve chucked coding and gone to work pulling fiber. People who can actually terminate fiber correctly and reliably make good money.
Comrade Stuck
And I would add, plus whatever Republican Disgust Effect that might override the Bradley Effect on election day. It could be more powerful when combined with economic panic. Clear as mud.
Zuzu's Petals
@Comrade Stuck:
Thanks for the insights. But why do you think this particular model is so close?
Malron
The Joe the plumber charade just went off the rails. According to Keith Olbermann on Countdown:
1. The business didn’t make $250,000, more like $100,000.
2. Joe wasn’t about to buy the business.
3. Joe only made $40,000 last year, meaning he’d be getting a tax cut under Obama’s plan.
I think this is another example of McCain not vetting a surrogate and it blowing up in his face.
Also, McCain is using Joe in an attack ad claiming Obama’s gonna raise taxes to provide money "for those who pay no taxes at all."
I hope John intends to write a scathing letter to the McCain campaign to leave Joe alone.
HyperIon
And someone might say "You don’t make a TV ad supporting a bill in congress when you want to be left alone."
In fact given what happened to the Frosts, I will say it.
LiberalTarian
What. Ever. It’s beer:30. Let’s get drunk.
Comrade Stuck
@Zuzu’s Petals:
Because they are including likely voters and are incorporating into them past voting habits of those interviewed. Persons who report regular voting habits will be considered to be more reliable predictors of the final vote, and given more weight in the poll results. It usually favors republicans in the poll percentages, maybe because they do vote more reliably, or they’re prone to lying (oh noes, that can’t be true) to pollsters. In fairness, in the recent to middling past voting behavour there is evidence they are a little more reliable voters. But for all the reasons I stated previously , I don’t think this model is trustworthy for this election. In a shift election the accuracy of past or traditional models also shifts.
Zuzu's Petals
Just got an e-mail from the campaign that they are urgently looking for attorney volunteers to do election-day poll monitoring in Nevada and Ohio.
More here: Ohio legal volunteers or Counsel for Change
Ohio also needs non-attorney volunteers for GOTV activities.
Nevada needs Spanish-speakers.
Zuzu's Petals
@Comrade Stuck:
Thanks. Let’s hope.
Zuzu's Petals
So it seems McCain went on Letterman today and made nice. To his credit, Letterman hammered him on a few things, including Sarah Palin and the Bill Ayers thing.
And – yay! – he brought up McCain’s relationship with G. Gordon Liddy. Get McCain’s response:
AP via MSNBC
I hope to God this gets picked up. Along with Liddy’s famous quote telling his listeners to "aim for the head" if federal agents came after ’em.
HuffPo
Sherrell
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/Plumber_Joe_may_not_have_time_for_McCain.html?showall
Like I said..he is not at all complaining about his media coverage and as he continues to thrust himself into the spotlight he should have to deal with the negative along with the positive. If he didn’t…he’d be like Sarah Palin
Screamin' Demon
Can we stop ending sentences like this now? It wasn’t funny the first time someone did it, and now it’s just stupid.
Church Lady
@Malron:
Since income tax records are private, how would Keith Olbermann know how much the business makes. Also, Joe never said he made $250K per year, he just asked why, if he did, Obama wanted him to pay more taxes than he would, today, for that same $250K in income. He also said he would like to buy the business, not that he was, in fact, buying the business. So, as far as I can see, Joe hasn’t lied.
@liberal:
If you can bitch about this guy still owing some taxes, since I pay all of mine, do I have your permission to bitch about the approximate 35% of Americans that pay absolutely no federal income taxes at all?
As to the rest of you, as you anxiously await your promised tax cut from President Obama, I hope that it’s enough to make up for what you just might not get any longer if you are employed by a small business.
As an incorporated small business owner with 19 employees, I can promise you that increased corporate taxes and increased personal taxes will not affect my current personal after tax income. I have the ability and werewithal to make sure that doesn’t happen. However, my employees semi-annual bonuses might need to be reduced from previous levels so that I can pay my increased taxes. I now pay 100% of their medical and dental premiums, for both individual coverage for single employees and family coverage for those who are married or have children, and it is very expensive. With an increase in my taxes, I will probably have to ask them to start chipping in for part of their coverage, or even pay for it entirely. The Simple IRA retirement plan I set up for them, the one that I match their voluntary contributions to, well, that might also have to fall by the wayside in order to pay my increased taxes. After all, there is no law that says I have to provide a retirement fund for my employees.
Oh, but I forgot. President Obama will give me a $3K tax credit for every new employee I hire. Wow – that will really go far towards the cost of an employee. Yes, that $3K will cover so much of my share of their social security and medicare taxes, unemployment insurance, workman’s comp, the above referenced medical and dental insurance premiums and contributions to their retirement accounts, etc., etc., etc. Yessirree, I’m gonna hire me a bunch of new people, just so I can get that big tax credit.
Increasing the corporate tax rate, or even individual income tax rates on those that successfully employ others, given the current economic climate is just bad business.
LiberalTarian
Fuck off Church Lady. You lost my attention when you called us all, and I do recall this correctly, asshats.
FUCK YOU, AND THE HOUSE YOU RODE IN ON.
Actually, the horse you rode in on is probably better in bed anyway.
Comrade Stuck
Only 2 percent of small business’s make more than 250,000 a year and that is taxable income. As you well know, many of the expenses you speak of are deductable. Try your GOP talking points over at Redstate, you both can comfort one another with your delusions.
Church Lady
LiberalTarian- sorry, but attacking Joe the Plumber for expressing an opinion you do not agree with and using that as an excuse to comb through his personal life is just as repugnant as what Malkin and her crew did to the Frost family. An yes, doing so makes you an asshat, and a hypocritical asshat at that.
Comrade Stuck – yes, those expenses are deductable. However, the actual costs of those deductable expenses are much, much more expensive than the reduction in the amount taxes that I pay. If you do not understand that basic economic concept, then you obviously do not itemize on your personal tax return. Just like the mortgage interest deduction, the actual interest expense incurred exceeds the amount of taxes saved by utilizing the deduction.
What I manufacture and sell is very cost sensitive and, unlike lots of other types of products, I cannot raise my prices in order to cover an increased corporate tax rate. If I do so, I will lose business in a very competitive industry. Therefore, the money has to come from somewhere. Unfortunately, it will probably come from some of my employees’ benefits.
Pooh
This being the current open thread, JD MOTHAFUCKING DREW!
Comrade Stuck
@Church Lady:
Then go with Mccain and maybe you can join Joe at future Mccain rallies and the two of you can preach the Gospel in support of his proposals. We asshats will then look under your rock as a public figure. Meanwhile, we’re not buying your crap.
Church Lady
@Comrade Stuck – In other words, you have nothing to add to your idiocy except perhaps some childish insults. It’s clear that you have absolutely no understanding of economic fundamentals. Too bad you’re not "buying my crap" – if you work for a company about the size of mine, you just might find yourself on the short end of the stick. Most of the time, the effects of economic policies hurts those at the bottom of the ladder, not those standing at the top pulling everyone else up with them.
Comrade Stuck
You mean like "Asshat". Get over yourself. We’ve put up with your crap to often and just don’t put any stock in what you say. You are boorish and you can stuff your trickle down economic theory. The country has had enough of that shit.
Church Lady
Dear Delicate Comrade- if the asshat fits, wear it. Oh, and by the way, the correct spelling is "too", not "to".
Just out of curiosity, when did you migrate over from the Great Orange Satan? You seem to be fairly new here, since I can’t seem to remember any of your pithy nuggets from before, and I’ve been here for some time.
Insults and snark are a very fine art, one for which you seemingly have no talent. There are others here who are quite adept at putting me in my place (shoutout to ThymeZone and ZuZu, among others), and can also make me laugh at the same time. To paraphrase a former great Democratic Vice Presidential nominee, you, sir, are no TZ.
Zuzu's Petals
@Church Lady:
Yes, it’s easy to see how that extra $300 per year you’ll be paying on each $10,000 of taxable income above $250,000 could force you to cancel your entire contribution to your 19 employees’ retirement plans, health premiums, or bonuses.
Zuzu's Petals
@Church Lady:
Oh, and by the way, correct punctuation requires the comma and period to be enclosed within the respective quotation marks.
And yes indeed, if the asshat fits, by all means please wear it.
TenguPhule
I’m sure hookers think they’re getting ahead in the world when the john grabs them by the hair and blows his wad in their mouth too.
TenguPhule
Jeff fucking Gannon.
When a shill for the GOP is outed, they’re fucking fair game.
Turns out this shithead plumber isn’t even a licensed plumber…Oops! Looks like someone was either lying…or operating under the table to avoid paying taxes.
Divorce records, none of our business.
Evidence emerging that this Joe shitpile speaking is a GOP plant at worst, tax evading asshole at best…is.
TenguPhule
Welcome to the Grown up world post-Bush.
We’re in a Recession. Government needs to spend more now.
The GOP asshats blew the wad that was supposed to be saved for bad times like this during the good times.
Now somebody has to pay.
Might as well be the people who got the most and have the money.
TenguPhule
Shorter Churchlady: "Give me what I want, or the employees get it!"
liberal
@Church Lady:
It’s mirror time!
Those truly at the top are parasitic collectors of economic rent, and thus can be taxed like crazy without harming the economy.
Of course, I doubt you even know what "economic rent" is.
liberal
@Church Lady:
You can bitch about it, but you’re missing out on these facts:
(1) They pay highly regressive sales taxes, and possibly state income taxes
(2) They’re probably not landowners, or on the whole own land of very little value. So the government forces them to pay landowners a lof of money for doing absolutely nothing. ([1], [2])
Of course, I’ll bet you’re ignorant about the economics of (2)…
By the way, since you fail to list payroll taxes, does that mean you think guvmint should honor the debt in the Social Security Trust Fund? Otherwise, you’re a two-faced liar.
liberal
@Xanthippas:
There’s a difference between yacking about public policy, and using yourself as an example.
At least in this case, it’s pretty clear:
–Whether he’s an actual plumber: allowed
–Whether he’s a tax cheat: allowed (not paying due to hardship being defined as "not tax cheat")
–Whether he’s a Republican plant: allowed
–Whether he’s truly an undecided voted: allowed
–The nature of his divorce: not allowed
–Anything regarding his children: not allowed
Etc
charlotte
Sam, the un-plumber, will probably end up with his own radio or tv show now. The McCain campaign has a weird Mickey Spillane vibe going these days. Sam-Joe and Miss Sarah look they might really hit it off. If this were a soap opera, we’d see them stuck in an elevator together fighting off all the sexual tension and then … giving in because it’s all just too much and life is too short. I think Schmidt is trying to bring the sexy back …
Comrade Stuck
Never did. And been here awhile under various handles. Long enough to know you are a smarmy troll who thinks she’s God’s gift, which fits with your handle. And long enough to not put up with your shit for more than a half second.
It doesn’t take a lot of talent to lift up the rock from whence you came. Even a no talent like me can pull that off. Your mendaciousness is broad and deep and runs with self indulgent sewage. Am I doing better now? On the other hand you are a first class idjit and every one here laughs at you, not with you.
And your insults are an insult to insults. Drab and common and painfully boorish without one centilla of humor.
Every morning when I wake up, I thank God for this fact. Your one and only, BTW
Church Lady
@Zuzu – 1. My punctuation is correct. Please refer to the Hodge’s Harbrace College Handbook for rules concerning quotations (16e-3). 2. Obviously, you missed the part where I said I pay corporate taxes on business profits. The increase on corporate taxes proposed by Obama starts at dollar one of net profits, not at $250K. And even your contention (based on paying individual tax rates) is incorrect – his proposal on the top tax bracket is to increase it from 35% to 39.9%, an increase of 4.9%, not the 3% you suggest.
@liberal – I guess you missed the part where I spoke of social security and medicare taxes a/k/a payroll taxes as part of the costs I pay in running a business. Those were included in the partial list of all of the taxes I pay to run a business.
I, along with my husband, have a business that we built from the ground up. A business that employs 17 other people (and will be 18 next month), providing their income, their health insurance and their part of their savings for retirement. You might think that that makes me "the man" that you so desparately want to stick it to. They, like me, would rather it remain a profitable enterprise, especially during an economic downturn, so that I can continue to not only be able to employ them and provide them the benefits they like, but can increase their income as my profits increase.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
I’m only going to say one thing about this:
Joe the Plumber IS a plant, after the fact. He was approached by Obama, the McCain campaign got wind of it and decided he was Joe Six Pack.
EOS.
gwangung
Church Lady, why would an increase in corporate profit tax bar you from hiring more, since that profit comes after your hiring of that additional person?
demimondian
Have you considered offshoring the photo shoots?
Zuzu Hussein's Petals
@Church Lady:
I suggest you go back and take another look at your Hodge’s Harbrace College Handbook, specifically this:
16e When using various marks of punctuation with quoted words, phrases, or sentences, follow the conventions of American printers.
(1) Place the comma within the quotation marks. Place the period within the quotation marks if the quotation ends the sentence.
Thanks, I’m aware that you said you pay corporate taxes as well as personal income taxes. However, as you implied that the change to your personal income tax rate (thank you for correcting the percentage) could affect your ability to pay for your employees’ benefits, I simply chose the simplest and most obvious example. I am relieved to hear that you would not be so silly as to claim that an increase of $490 per year on each $10,000 of your taxable personal income over $250,000 would force you to cancel those benefits. At least that’s what I assume you are saying.
As to the changes to your corporate taxes, I’m a little confused as to what you consider "increase on corporation taxes." Because according to the Obama campaign, the corporate tax rate would remain at 35% for the top bracket. The "increase" evidently comes only for those small business owners who pay on their profits through their personal income tax.
CNN
Perhaps you’ll enlighten me on exactly what "corporate tax increase" you mean.
On the other hand, if you qualify as a small business, I can see where you might benefit from the elimination of the capital gains tax. And as a small business owner who pays health premiums for her employees, it seems you would also benefit from the 50% tax credit for those payments; of course McCain plans to tax those payments, for the first time in history.