Another Open Thread

Via the GOS, Jonah brings the night’s HoYay!

That Was Very Nicely Done [Jonah Goldberg]
I thought McCain’s close was about as good as he gets. Honorable. Decent. Serious. Manly.

MMMM. Codpiece. Nom nom nom nom.

Another open thread for post debate babble. Fill me in on the polls, I got tired of the coverage and am watching 30 Rock to unwind.






103 replies
  1. 1
    Apsaras says:

    I thought McCain’s choice to answer while field stripping his rifle AND fucking his trophy wife showed the kind of gravitas America demands for its executive leadership.

  2. 2
    Comrade The Other Steve says:

    Did Jonah just sit up straighter on his couch?

  3. 3
    gwangung says:

    30 Rock AND Tina Fey? While the rest of us chase polls and talking heads?

    Damn sure who has the brains around here….

  4. 4
    Halffasthero says:

    I am watching a movie called "Snatch". Brit gangsters and humour. Brad Pitt as a "Pikey" was funny as hell (where the hell did he practice that accent?). Definite recommend.

    I skipped the debate and watched the commentary instead. Made it easier to deal with.

    Not who won or how clean a win it was given the snap polls. Clearly McCain followers needed a big win (really big) and from what I am reading, they didn’t get it. Not by a long shot given the comments.

  5. 5
    Alex says:

    Fuck, and here I thought in his closing McCain sounded like a desperate guy who just got his ass kicked, and knew it.

  6. 6
    John Cole says:

    You have never seen Snatch before?

  7. 7

    No one is as much of an expert on manlines as Jonah Goldberg.

  8. 8
    victordavishanson says:

    I thought that Senator McCain was masterful when he nominated Incitatus for a Senate post. And his new brothel idea–featuring Senators wives–is just the bold, visionary leadership we need.

  9. 9
    donovong says:

    All snap polls are going with Obama as winner – CNN, FOX, CBS and NBC so far.

    Yes, even Fox.

    gotta love it.

  10. 10
    Perry Como says:

    @Comrade The Other Steve:

    Yes, and he’ll soon be talking about sparkling wiggles.

  11. 11
    Delia says:

    See, Rich gets off on Sarah winking at him through the teevee screen while Jonah gets off on the old geezer . . . . um . . . . I’m going to stop now.

  12. 12
    Rock says:

    On a different topic:

    Is McCain right that purchasing the mortgages of houses close to foreclosure is the way to fix the financial crisis? I know little about economics, but I have to wonder if it isn’t. The problem is that banks don’t know which over banks are solvent because they can’t assess the debt instruments that are owned. Right? If the government buys those mortgages shouldn’t that help to fix that?

    Why is that a bad idea?

  13. 13
    DougJ says:

    Manly.

    If you haven’t seen the interview with Harvey Mansfield about "On Manliness", it’s a must read. It closes with:

    Are you a cigar smoker?

    Mansfield: I’m a puffer now and again.

    With no apparent irony. This is right after they got done talking about whether or not he bought clothes off the rack.

    Why are the righties so gay? Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  14. 14
    John Cole says:

    @Rock: Apparently, that authority is already in the rescue bill that passed the other day.

  15. 15
  16. 16
    cain says:

    On a different topic:
    Is McCain right that purchasing the mortgages of houses close to foreclosure is the way to fix the financial crisis? I know little about economics, but I have to wonder if it isn’t. The problem is that banks don’t know which over banks are solvent because they can’t assess the debt instruments that are owned. Right? If the government buys those mortgages shouldn’t that help to fix that?
    Why is that a bad idea?

    So McCain wants us to spend additional money to buy up the mortgages and then make up for the money spent by making deep cuts in medicare and medicaid. I’m still trying to figure out what the rest of us get out of this? Is this guy fucking insane?

    cain

    BTW blockquote no longer does paragraphs again.. or perhaps I never quoted more htan one paragraph.

  17. 17

    So McCain wants us to spend additional money to buy up the mortgages and then make up for the money spent by making deep cuts in medicare and medicaid. I’m still trying to figure out what the rest of us get out of this

    War against Iran, Syria, and Russia.

  18. 18
    Comrade Peter J says:

    Jed Lewison has a video of what I guess is a CBS focus group reacting to "that one".

    It’s great news for McCain.

  19. 19
    Delia says:

    Take 2:
    Hey, If Lucianne were your mother, you’d have all sorts of sexuality issues, too.

  20. 20
    sidereal says:

    Never have the deep psychosexual issues of right wingers been laid so bare. It’s like Christmas every morning.

  21. 21
    Stuck in the Fun House says:

    See, Rich gets off on Sarah winking at him through the teevee screen while Jonah gets off on the old geezer . . . . um . . . . I’m going to stop now.

    Just your average day for the manly mavens of wingnutopia. Empty dreams for empty minds.

  22. 22
    Redleg says:

    Unfortunately for McCain and his sycophants, the closing statement was the best part of McCain’s entire debate tonight. Obama once again out-classed McCain and beat him on both substance and style. What a fuckin’ douche.

  23. 23
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    I’m going to bed where I’m sure to have nightmares about McCain crashing Air Force One into my house.

  24. 24
    DougJ says:

    I’m going to bed where I’m sure to have nightmares about McCain crashing Air Force One into my house.

    Don’t worry — he’ll probably just fly too low and cut your power lines.

  25. 25
    Clor says:

    If you like Snatch, Guy Ritchie’s got a new film out: RockNRolla

  26. 26
    Shibby says:

    Even better check out Lock stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Has many of the same actors in it.

  27. 27

    Is McCain right that purchasing the mortgages of houses close to foreclosure is the way to fix the financial crisis? I know little about economics, but I have to wonder if it isn’t. The problem is that banks don’t know which over banks are solvent because they can’t assess the debt instruments that are owned. Right? If the government buys those mortgages shouldn’t that help to fix that?

    Why is that a bad idea?

    Figuring out which homeowners to include in the program is one problem. McCain also said that the goal was to put a floor under house prices, which is a really bad idea. House prices have to fall until they’re back in line with incomes. Given that median incomes have been flat for the last decade, house prices are going to have to give back all of that appreciation, in real terms. It’s ugly, but necessary.

    There actually is a good way to go about this: mortgage cramdowns. Guess who opposed them as a part of the bailout bill?

  28. 28
    Halffasthero says:

    You have never seen Snatch before?

    Oh, yes. It’s a great movie. And I will check out RockNRolla. That I haven’t seen.

  29. 29

    Don’t worry—he’ll probably just fly too low and cut your power lines.

    Haha!

  30. 30
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    I thought McCain’s choice to answer while field stripping his rifle trophy wife AND fucking his trophy wife rifle showed the kind of gravitas America demands for its executive leadership.

    Fix’t.

  31. 31
    malraux says:

    @Rock:

    Is McCain right that purchasing the mortgages of houses close to foreclosure is the way to fix the financial crisis? I know little about economics, but I have to wonder if it isn’t. The problem is that banks don’t know which over banks are solvent because they can’t assess the debt instruments that are owned. Right? If the government buys those mortgages shouldn’t that help to fix that?

    I came here to talk about that proposal and why its so horrid. So in theory, that’s a way to deal with the problem of people who paid way too much for homes that they cannot afford. How it would work, at least from what I got from McCain is this: the government pays the face value of the loan to the bank. Then the government works with the home owner to re-negotiate the loan value and terms, likely adjusting downward both the loan amount and the rate. At a first pass, this would help with the foreclosure rate significantly, as the big problem is the number of people who overpaid for their home; realistically, there are just too many homes in danger of foreclosure that if the banks were to just kick everyone out, we’d end up not with homes returning to their proper value, but shooting way below.

    The problem with that plan is the part where we pay banks the face value of the loan. That’s a huge huge taxpayer giveaway to banks. Its rewarding the worst behavior. The more the banks made bad loans, the more free money they get. Its not just privatizing the profit and socializing the risk, its paying the companies for making mistakes. For all of McCain’s rants on giveaways, this plan is as bad as any of them.

    A better plan would be to grant bankruptcy judges the authority to re-negotiate loans. Then, the banks that took on too much risk will pay for their mistakes.

  32. 32
    Paul says:

    I’m not going to hit this website anymore unless my mouth is empty.

    Your "Mmmmh codpiece. Nom nom nom" just about cost me a laptop. I choked and almost sprayed a whole mouthful of coffee all over it.

    Very, very funny. Bwahahahaha funny.

  33. 33
    Jeff says:

    @malraux: I just wonder how a fiscal conservative could get behind this. My next door neighbor’s house is valued at more than 150k less than he bought it for. Yet, he is responsible and can afford his mortgage and is planning on living in his house for a long time.

    Talk about redistribution of wealth.

  34. 34
    malraux says:

    Oh, and how the fuck is McCain getting away with talking about a complete spending freeze? Hell, how the hell is McCain talking about new programs and a spending freeze? Is this a special Maverick freeze where stuff can change?

  35. 35
    David says:

    A TV Tropesism at a politics blog? I love this place.

  36. 36
    ThymeZone says:

    MMMM. Codpiece. Nom nom nom nom.

    Best BJ line ever.

    Buying up failing mortgages and renegotiating? Wow. Might be the craziest idea I ever heard from a politician.

    Mavericky. Not as in political maverick, more as in Maverick, the car.

  37. 37
    malraux says:

    @Jeff:

    just wonder how a fiscal conservative could get behind this. My next door neighbor’s house is valued at more than 150k less than he bought it for. Yet, he is responsible and can afford his mortgage and is planning on living in his house for a long time.

    I’ve gotten to the point where I think seeing a fiscal conservative is kinda like seeing Elvis at the local gas station. You know it just can’t be, cuz all the real fiscal conservatives died on their thrones a long time ago.

  38. 38
    DonnaInMichigan says:

    Ok
    ‘splain this one to me.

    McCain suggests a spending freeze.

    Then goes on and says he wants the gov’t to buy up mortgages to a tune of 300 million dollars?

    HUH?

    Seriously McCain could have a debate with himself.

  39. 39
    DonnaInMichigan says:

    And on another note.

    I am tired of McCain saying "My friends"…

    I am not voting for a BFF,

    I am voting for the next president.

    I find it condescending, like he is talking down to me. "My friends", you just don’t understand, here let me the wiser old man, splain things to you………because apparently your to stupid to understand it.

  40. 40
    EJ says:

    Also, Girthy.

  41. 41
    Johnny Pez says:

    Per the GOS, every time McSame used the "my friends" tag, the CNN meter flatlined. People know damn well that he isn’t their friend.

  42. 42
    cynic says:

    All the time I was watching this town-hall-snooze-fest I kept imagining McCain in a hospital gown, his pasty white ass hanging out the back, pacing back and forth like an angry midget off his meds. Obama could have been his psychiatrist observing the old troll for signs of incipient paranoia or mania … doubling up on the lithium, and then it’s off to the golf course.

    Please don’t give this man nucular weapons.

  43. 43
    Martin says:

    I just wonder how a fiscal conservative could get behind this. My next door neighbor’s house is valued at more than 150k less than he bought it for. Yet, he is responsible and can afford his mortgage and is planning on living in his house for a long time.

    Hypothetical:

    I take out a mortgage for $550K on my $600K home. The value of the home drops to $400K. I’ve lost my $50K downpayment and now owe $150K more than the home is worth. I can’t make the payments on my ARM and the house goes into foreclosure. A judge could change my loan into a fixed 30 for $425K ($25K over the value of the home) which I could afford.

    I win, because I can stay in my home and I don’t declare bankruptcy, and though I’ve still lost my downpayment, I’m only $25K upside down rather than $150K. The bank wins because instead of reclaiming the home and hoping to sell it for $400K at a $200K loss, they still get income off of $425K, which is better than what they would have gotten. The move holds off the CDSs firing which would hurt other companies, revalues the asset at $425K instead of $400K (or lower) which helps the bank, and keeps a foreclosure off the market which helps the neighborhood home values from falling further.

    Alternatively, the bank seizes the home, putting another property on an already flooded market, driving all home prices down fractionally that much more, making it that much harder for responsible people to sell their homes (for whatever reason). The bank is worse off. The homeowner is worse off. We don’t know who is ‘at fault’ any more than we did before – did the buyer misrepresent their income, did the bank pad the buyers income in order to get another mortgage to resell, or was it just another of the 700,000 people that have lost jobs this year?

    See, the GOP constantly screams over ‘personal responsibility’ and ‘fairness’. Guess what, nothing is fair. Fair died in 4th grade when letter grades showed up. The real question is ‘What’s better for society’? A lot of these so-called fiscal conservatives would happily welcome Planet of the Apes so long as we got there employing the tenets of ‘personal responsibility’.

    I hate to point this out, but one of the things that allowed us as a species, some half a million years ago or so to rise above the other predators is we learned to work together. If ants can figure out it’s to their benefit to work cooperatively, what the fuck is wrong with conservatives that they reject it in a time of crisis?

  44. 44
    TenguPhule says:

    MMMM. Codpiece. Nom nom nom nom.

    He was looking for the cream filling.

  45. 45
    Martin says:

    Per the GOS, every time McSame used the "my friends" tag, the CNN meter flatlined. People know damn well that he isn’t their friend.

    ‘my friends’ is McCain’s tell for spouting bullshit. As soon as he drops it, you can safely tune out.

  46. 46
    cain says:

    I’m going to bed where I’m sure to have nightmares about McCain crashing Air Force One into my house.

    Dude, just take him hostage after that and hold him for 5 years. He won’t care, it’s happened before.

    cain

  47. 47
    malraux says:

    Also, can we just stipulate before every debate that both candidates really really like Israel? Not just in a "sit beside them in class" sort of way, but in the "hang out after school", "formed our own band", "pick them up at the airport at really late/early hours", "would not only help each other move into a 3rd floor apartment" sort of way. Has any serious candidate ever answered that question no? If not, then do we really need to spend five minutes of tv time going over that?

    I mean, I can see questions about how to solve the peace process, or even a question about if our military actively soldiering in a next door country works to negatively impact the ME’s view of Israel. But of course both candidates like Israel.

  48. 48
    TenguPhule says:

    If ants can figure out it’s to their benefit to work cooperatively, what the fuck is wrong with conservatives that they reject it in a time of crisis?

    I welcome our new Ant overlords.

  49. 49
    ThymeZone says:

    If ants can figure out it’s to their benefit to work cooperatively, what the fuck is wrong with conservatives

    Ants are inherently smarter.

  50. 50
    DonnaInMichigan says:

    The difference in tonights debate, at least for me…

    McCain: I did, I was, He did, He was…

    Obama: I will as president……………

  51. 51
    malraux says:

    @Martin:

    I win, because I can stay in my home and I don’t declare bankruptcy, and though I’ve still lost my downpayment, I’m only $25K upside down rather than $150K. The bank wins because instead of reclaiming the home and hoping to sell it for $400K at a $200K loss, they still get income off of $425K, which is better than what they would have gotten. The move holds off the CDSs firing which would hurt other companies, revalues the asset at $425K instead of $400K (or lower) which helps the bank, and keeps a foreclosure off the market which helps the neighborhood home values from falling further.

    That’s not a bad plan at least for our current situation. But the McCain plan seemed to be to pay the bank $550k for the loan, then negotiate with you. Then the bank wins because they get the full value of the loan, not the negotiated value. That may or may not help the rest of the neighborhood because now they’ve effectively paid off the bank, so while their homes might not decline in value, they also are in debt for the amount of the write-down.

  52. 52

    Figuring out which homeowners to include in the program is one problem. McCain also said that the goal was to put a floor under house prices, which is a really bad idea. House prices have to fall until they’re back in line with incomes. Given that median incomes have been flat for the last decade, house prices are going to have to give back all of that appreciation, in real terms. It’s ugly, but necessary.

    What about coming at it from the other side? How about finding a way to boost incomes? I only ask because I’ve got this consolidated student loan at a real good rate that’s currently in deferral, and anything I can do to make it worth less in relation to my income is a good thing from my perspective.

  53. 53
    Ecks says:

    I can top that NRO nuttiness with this

    Obama thinks health care is a right, not a responsibility. Bringing up his mother as the case study is not clever. Very sad that she died at 53 of cancer, and had to spend time arguing with insurance companies. I’m sure she was a wonderful, fascinating person. But she was not a paragon of responsibility.

    says Lisa "but poor people deserve their agonizing deaths" Schiffren.

    Seriously. I need a shower.

  54. 54
    Alex says:

    You have never seen Snatch before?

    Must be the Virgin Ben Shapiro.

  55. 55
    Original Lee says:

    I just about choked when that retired Navy veteran asked the Israel question. Why? Because neither McCain nor Obama could even hint at the real answer. As my retired Marine sergeant neighbor has explained to me many times, we won’t have to do anything right away because Israel would turn any country that attacked it into an endless plain of glass before anybody else could respond. The job of the U.S. is therefore to make sure that Israel gets to hang on to any remaining pieces of itself and to help make it livable again, and to give the Jews someplace else safe to live until they can return, or until the Rapture, whichever comes first.

    And not to Godwin up this thread or anything, but I was watching the pre-debate news with my sister’s family, and her father-in-law turned to me after watching the latest Palin coverage and said, "She’s as good as Hitler at getting those crowds all riled up, isn’t she?" I would consider this statement an expert opinion, since this man was in the Polish Resistance during WWII.

  56. 56
    Martin says:

    That’s not a bad plan at least for our current situation. But the McCain plan seemed to be to pay the bank $550k for the loan, then negotiate with you. Then the bank wins because they get the full value of the loan, not the negotiated value. That may or may not help the rest of the neighborhood because now they’ve effectively paid off the bank, so while their homes might not decline in value, they also are in debt for the amount of the write-down.

    Well, the McCain plan, like so many McCain plans is fucked up because it hands everything to the bank, rather than split the difference with the homeowner. And if you want to put a floor under housing prices, you need to take inventory off the market and make sure people can borrow. Preventing home seizures helps with the former, and some will come naturally as builders back off. But for the latter in addition to getting job growth going again, at least in high-income areas they need to fix the credit squeeze. To buy in my neighborhood, you’re looking at 9.375% for a 30 fixed jumbo. If you can drop down to the next city over where you can probably keep your mortgage low enough for a normative loan, you’re looking at 5.750% for 30 fixed, same terms. Needless to say, nothing is moving here, and prices are plummeting.

  57. 57
    ninerdave says:

    Polls: Obama wins again.

    Question, who the fuck is still undecided at this point, aside from people who have their heads up their asses and how did they find 80 or so of them.

    I’m assuming these are the same people (no disrespect to our host) who gave us eight years of Bush and still think that McCain is the McCain of 2000. In other words, people who don’t care.

  58. 58
    bago says:

    MMMM. Codpiece. Nom nom nom nom.
    Best BJ line ever.

    Best straight line ever.

  59. 59
    Chuck says:

    Did I miss a memo somewhere*? When did we decide that Israel could no longer kick the shit out of Iran by itself? I just don’t understand that frame, which seems to come up over and over and over, and which both candidates accepted without question. This isn’t China and Taiwan. It’s a 3/4-backwards mid-sized country taking on the small, extremely modern, democratic nation that has shown time and again that they have probably the pound-for-pound most dominant military since, ahem, those 300 guys in Sparta.

    The idea that we have to defend Israel from Iran — even a putative future nuclear-armed Iran — is like assuming we have to protect Hillary Clinton from attacks by, say, Joe Lieberman, because she’s a girl and he’s a big mean boy. It only makes sense until you adjust your assumptions to match the obvious reality.

    *Just kidding; I got all those memos, but I disregarded them because they were dumb.

  60. 60
    Jeff says:

    Unfortunately, a lot of the undecideds are like my Mom. Bigots who would not even think about voting for McCain if Obama were white.

  61. 61
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    I started to watch it on the BBC feed, but got bored. How many times must i watch the tall metrosexual and the stubby angry guy repeat themselves?
    Its not like we aren’t doomed either way.

  62. 62
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    Is McCain right that purchasing the mortgages of houses close to foreclosure is the way to fix the financial crisis?

    No.

    I know little about economics…

    Dude, you answered your own question.

    The problem is that banks don’t know which over banks are solvent because they can’t assess the debt instruments that are owned. Right? If the government buys those mortgages shouldn’t that help to fix that?
    Why is that a bad idea?

    Read up on derivitaves. There will be a test later.

  63. 63
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    malraux

    @Martin:
    I win, because I can stay in my home and I don’t declare bankruptcy, and though I’ve still lost my downpayment, I’m only $25K upside down rather than $150K. The bank wins because instead of reclaiming the home and hoping to sell it for $400K at a $200K loss, they still get income off of $425K, which is better than what they would have gotten. The move holds off the CDSs firing which would hurt other companies, revalues the asset at $425K instead of $400K (or lower) which helps the bank, and keeps a foreclosure off the market which helps the neighborhood home values from falling further.
    That’s not a bad plan at least for our current situation. But the McCain plan seemed to be to pay the bank $550k for the loan, then negotiate with you. Then the bank wins because they get the full value of the loan, not the negotiated value. That may or may not help the rest of the neighborhood because now they’ve effectively paid off the bank, so while their homes might not decline in value, they also are in debt for the amount of the write-down.

    Totally pointless whether your tiny mortgage gets paid off, its bigger than you now. HTH.

  64. 64
    Anne Laurie says:

    How it would work, at least from what I got from McCain is this: the government pays the face value of the loan to the bank. Then the government works with the home owner to re-negotiate the loan value and terms, likely adjusting downward both the loan amount and the rate… The problem with that plan is the part where we pay banks the face value of the loan. That’s a huge huge taxpayer giveaway to banks. Its rewarding the worst behavior. The more the banks made bad loans, the more free money they get. Its not just privatizing the profit and socializing the risk, its paying the companies for making mistakes.

    I understand that the ‘focus groups’ reacted really badly to this idea. Which made sense to me, because to my non-professional-financier ears it sounded like taking MY tax dollars and giving them to the arsehole bankers who lied us into this mess in the first place, with a side serving to the idiots who considered themselves "entitled" to more house than they could afford. Nobody wants foreclosure signs on (any more) houses in their own neighborhood, but very few of us are so saintly that we want to listen to our self-styled financial-genius brothers-in-law or co-workers brag about how Uncle Sugar bailed them out on the overpriced McMansion / investment property they should never have bought in the first place. And hearing about such "rescues" has got to be even more infuriating for those who won’t be able to afford a sane mortgage until a lot more air has deflated from their local housing bubbles.

  65. 65
    Ecks says:

    Totally pointless whether your tiny mortgage gets paid off

    Ok, here’s the obvious counter argument and its rebuttal, as I see it:

    "Ah ha," you say, "but it’s all about derivatives isn’t it. They are contingent deals, many of which will fall badly apart if too many people default. So if you stop allmost of those defaults, then the derivatives won’t fall apart, and nobody has to worry about the banks’ capital assets suddenly turning to mulch. Then they can happily get back to lending each other money, without so much fear, surely."

    Rebuttal:

    "It might have worked like that a month ago, but now that everyone has been made painfully aware that there is no wizard behind the curtain. The mortgage crisis didn’t create a powder keg, it just revealed the one we’ve already been sitting on for several years (revealed by the light of its burning fuse, as it were). Even if you wind back the clock and get rid of the immediate risk of too many foreclosures, everybody knows the risks are still there, and they STILL aren’t going to feel safe lending anyone money."

    I don’t know if I believe that, but it seems reasonable. So that leaves me still thinking that the *real* problem with the plan, is that, as is pointed out above, it’s basically a hand out to the banks ("so you charged people unreasonably ginormous rates? Well jackpot for you!").

  66. 66
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    If you like Snatch, Guy Ritchie’s got a new film out: RockNRolla

    Guy Ritchie’s greatest film is 2002’s much underrated Swept Away. Primal roles as a man and a woman, beautiful beach scenes and Madonna naked. I know, everyone wants to see Vinnie Jones slam some toads head in a car door and check out Jason Stratham’s* pecks, but that makes you gay. Madonna naked!
    That’s not something you see every day.
    *Jason Stratham should have been the new Bond, not that inbred thick head Daniel Craig.

  67. 67
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    What about coming at it from the other side? How about finding a way to boost incomes? I only ask because I’ve got this consolidated student loan at a real good rate that’s currently in deferral, and anything I can do to make it worth less in relation to my income is a good thing from my perspective.

    Just hold on to your loan. Buy assets- tools. Pay your loan back in ten years with worthless money.

  68. 68
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    I don’t know if I believe that, but it seems reasonable. So that leaves me still thinking that the real problem with the plan, is that, as is pointed out above, it’s basically a hand out to the banks ("so you charged people unreasonably ginormous rates? Well jackpot for you!").

    Yep. That’s it. You want to punish the greedy, you’ll end up punishing yourself worse. The poor always get screwed.

    But seriously, I’ve been preparing for this time for years, got my land and my savings in cash, so if you all want to go MadMax, have at it.

  69. 69
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    "Ah ha," you say, "but it’s all about derivatives isn’t it. They are contingent deals, many of which will fall badly apart if too many people default. So if you stop allmost of those defaults, then the derivatives won’t fall apart, and nobody has to worry about the banks’ capital assets suddenly turning to mulch. Then they can happily get back to lending each other money, without so much fear, surely."

    See here for the problem with your above statement. HTH

  70. 70
    TenguPhule says:

    The Awesome free market of deregulation continues!

    Iceland teeters on bankruptcy.

    Like throwing fire bombs in a dynamite factory.

  71. 71
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    Iceland teeters on bankruptcy

    Iceland will probably get a loan from Russia in exchange for the use of Keflavik. An even bigger problem, the collapse of the commodity bubble, oh my god, Russia might be bankrupt!

  72. 72
    Keith says:

    Honorable. Decent. Serious. Manly.

    Sounds like Jonah saw some kind of bursts on his TV screen tonight.

  73. 73
    Ecks says:

    It’s not a ponzi scheme. Those work by "growing the pot" by bringing in more and more people until there aren’t any more people to bring in. Then they fall apart.

    This was more like taking a cash flow (i.e., incoming mortgage payments), and promising bits and pieces of it back and forth between the same 10 guys till it looked like there must be thirty times its worth, so much money was changing hands. They weren’t going to run out of new people to bring in, that wasn’t the problem.

    The problem was that this was an elegant stack of borrowings on lendings, insured with borrowings paid by lendings. The premise was that money from mortgages was safe as houses. When enough people defaulted (and house prices started going down, meaning banks couldn’t just sell foreclosed homes for a profit), that premise stopped being true, and everyone was left with their hand out demanding outsized dues from each other… and not able to pay.

    The fact that it was inevitable that the housing bubble would pop at some point turns it from tragedy into a garden variety monument to human hubris and stupidity.

    That’s as far as I have it figured out anyway.

  74. 74
    TomK says:

    @Rock:

    You know how if I said to you, "You could buy the brooklyn bridge for just 5 million dollars?’ I would be full of shit. It’s the exact same thing. Mortgages are pieces of paper that says "X will pay owner of mortgage Y" Since there is no way in hell X will pay owner Y, buying these means you are burning most of the money you spend on them. Therefore, if the government bought them, the government would be burning Y times however many people needed buying out. Meanwhile, the rich enjoy their tax breaks. Because people like Juan Cole, who should of known better (but is showing so much remorse that he may yet get his honor back), got fooled by George Bush.

  75. 75
    cain says:

    plain of glass before anybody else could respond. The job of the U.S. is therefore to make sure that Israel gets to hang on to any remaining pieces of itself and to help make it livable again, and to give the Jews someplace else safe to live until they can return, or until the Rapture, whichever comes first.

    Can’t we give them Arizona or Utah or some Red State. I think we’re being generous if we reserve some land for them.

    cain

  76. 76
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    Ecks

    It’s not a ponzi scheme. Those work by "growing the pot" by bringing in more and more people until there aren’t any more people to bring in. Then they fall apart.
    This was more like taking a cash flow (i.e., incoming mortgage payments), and promising bits and pieces of it back and forth between the same 10 guys till it looked like there must be thirty times its worth, so much money was changing hands. They weren’t going to run out of new people to bring in, that wasn’t the problem.
    The problem was this was an elegant stack of borrowings on lendings, insured with borrowings paid by lendings. The premise was that money from mortgages was safe as houses. When enough people defaulted (and house prices started going down, meaning banks couldn’t just sell foreclosed homes for a profit), that premise stopped being true, and everyone was left with their hand out demanding outsized dues from each other… and not able to pay.
    The fact that it was inevitable that the housing bubble would pop at some point turns it from tragedy into a garden variety monument to human hubris and stupidity.
    That’s as far as I have it figured out anyway.

    You say not-Ponzi but describe Ponzi, I say Ponzi. Whatever.
    Not like we are economic geniuses or anything.
    I see housing bubble i see ponzi. You see different. I see commodity bubble i see ponzi, perhaps you see different?
    Australian dollar is dropping like a rock, Russia’s closed its stock market , what’s up with that? Someone in the US overpaid a home mortgage or the whole ridiculous house-of-cards ponzi scheme falling apart?

  77. 77
    Thomas Edward Theadore says:

    You know how if I said to you, "You could buy the brooklyn bridge for just 5 million dollars?’ I would be full of shit. It’s the exact same thing. Mortgages are pieces of paper that says "X will pay owner of mortgage Y" Since there is no way in hell X will pay owner Y, buying these means you are burning most of the money you spend on them. Therefore, if the government bought them, the government would be burning Y times however many people needed buying out. Meanwhile, the rich enjoy their tax breaks. Because people like Juan Cole, who should of known better (but is showing so much remorse that he may yet get his honor back), got fooled by George Bush.

    Now see, this is exactly the sort of dynamic economic understanding we need in these troubled times. I am sending email to Mr. Barak suggesting TomK as Treasury Dude.

  78. 78
    bedlam UK says:

    Was wondering if you’d seen this.

    Obama supporters are damn fast about ‘That one’…
    Get shopping !

  79. 79
    tattoosydney says:

    Yay! Ted is back.

    How are you, Your Grumpiness?

  80. 80
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    The nightly TET offensive is on. More cud chewing and methane production! Whee!

    Someone got through (yet again) at RedState:

    McCain is not a people person
     
    zorbinlbl October 8th, 2008 at 3:17 a.m. (link)
     
    Well, I noticed at the end of the debate that Sen. McCain was busy just shaking hands with all the men while Sen. Obama was shaking hands with both men and women plus having his picture taken with them. Then when Sen. McCain tapped Sen. Obama on his left shoulder while standing to his right (like when a child does it to make you spin around) and Sen. Obama went to his left to acknowledge Sen. McCain tapping him, Sen. McCain stepped back and away from Sen. Obama extending his hand to Sen. McCain, so instead Sen. Obama then greeted and acknowledged Sen. McCain’s wife and little taken aback from the whole ordeal. Then Sen. Obama walked away and continued to greet the audience. That was very distasteful of Sen. McCain and he really showed EXACTLY how he really is. Plus, Sen. McCain walked around very stiff when he spoke and uncomfortable about the whole debate, as if he was being controlled by someone with an Atari game controller, while Sen. Obama was calm, cool and collective.
     
    The biggest thing that makes me applaud Sen. Obama is how he will not lower himself to Sen. McCain’s level of c___p and when answering the question about health care that it is a RIGHT, not a responsibility.
     
    I haven’t voted since 2000, but I will now for I believe my vote will count this time and I will be voting for Sen. Obama. He gives me hope, something that I haven’t had for a very long time. And for all of you out there: My family was born and raised Rep. for generations, but in 2000 we changed to independent because there was no way in H___ we were going to vote for Bush, we decided to vote for the man not for the political party.
     
    WE BELIEVE IN "CHANGE WE NEED"

    No howls of outrage as of yet, but we all know Moby Moe will be along soon to deliver the BLAM he is so fond of dispensing whenever someone expresses an opinion that does not fit in with the RedState mission (whatever that may be this week).

    It is nice to see that they are depressed about last nights debate performance by their guy. Some of them are really pissed about how McCain wants to buy up all of the bad mortgages. Their ‘free market’ dreams are dying and their candidate is leading the way.

    Another person snuck in and posted:

    "This one is voting for That One".

    And yet another got in but their message was already removed by Moby Moe. Their handle was nailinpalin, so I could probably guess what the message was. ;)

  81. 81

    Conor Friersdorf via Sullivan:

    My guess is that most Americans will pick Senator Obama as the winner of this debate. On substance neither of the candidates said much of anything new. The issues at play still favor the Democrats. And on style John McCain mumbled through his answers a lot more than in past performances. As a viewer this wasn’t a very fun debate to watch. How can I connect with a candidate who doesn’t wink at me?

    Win.

  82. 82
    MR Bill says:

    As a gay guy (hell, gay redneck, or pinkneck if you will), the unconscious homoeroticism these guys have for the ‘wrinkly old dude" (in P. Hilton’s phrase) is creepy.
    At least, I hope it’s unconscious. The number of gay Republican functionaries also creeps me out.

  83. 83
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    I am reading a lot of righties on blogs who are suggesting that McCain or some group make an ad comparing Ayers to Timothy McVeigh and hanging it around Obama’s neck. I have seen this posted enough to think that someone may pick it up and run with it.

    I have a feeling that the shit is going to be flying fast and furious real soon. It is getting down to the wire and McCain/Palin are blowing it big. I have already seen more than a few posters lamenting that Romney wasn’t chosen, especially since the markets are tanking and McCain is stabbing them in the back with his bailout proposal for mortgages.

    Put on the waders because the shit is going to get deep.

  84. 84
    dr. bloor says:

    Guy Ritchie’s greatest film is 2002’s much underrated Swept Away. Primal roles as a man and a woman, beautiful beach scenes and Madonna naked. I know, everyone wants to see Vinnie Jones slam some toads head in a car door and check out Jason Stratham’s* pecks, but that makes you gay. Madonna naked!
    That’s not something you see every day.

    Congratulations, you completely destroyed the credibility of your 624 other posts tonight. You should probably stop now.

  85. 85
    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII says:

    I would like to see Barack Obama change his political ads to say: "I’m Barack Obama, also known as "That One", and I approve this message.

  86. 86

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: That is the line that sticks with most of us. And I don’t mean that in a good way. But the tone deaf Republicans just don’t get it. Ben Smith put up this post last night.

    The most memorable line of the night belonged to John McCain. McCain pointed out that “That One” vote for the 05 energy bill. Look for Republicans to note in coming days that “That One” also voted for higher taxes at least 94 times; “That One” has associations with unrepentant terrorists, etc…

    The GOP thinks they can run with it? Who’s in charge of that outfit? This is turning into a poor remake of Blazing Saddles and nobody told these atavists satire is supposed to be good for at least a few yucks.

  87. 87
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    "That One" is going to be the quote that was heard around the world. I am reading about it all over the place already and I bet it will get plenty of airtime today. The righties love it and just about everyone else thinks it was rude and stupid of McCain to say it.

    I bet his campaign people are going nuts right about now. Nothing they do is working and they are running out of time. If McCain loses, they all lose and they know what future most losers have.

    None.

  88. 88
    Napoleon says:

    Regarding the government program paying off the mortgage vs. bankruptcy cram down, the cram down is the way to go. I was preparing to write a long post on why but Martin @44 gives an extremely lucid explanation on why.

    Almost every conservative response to everything is the knee jerk reaction you get from a 8 year old. The first time I realized how bad this tendency was with them was around the time when they first came to power in Congress and were blocking Sam Nunn from a program that would spend money in the old Soviet Union locking up loose nukes and getting their old nuclear physicist off the streets with some kind of program. The conservatives through a hissy fit because some how it rewarded bad behavior. Un-freaking-believable. If they had their way I wouldn’t be surprised if they kept ambulance drivers from picking up injured people who crash while drunk driving.

    Adjusting the mortgages to be more closely related to market prices is a good thing for society, and anyone reading this who may refinance or have to sell a house over the next 4 – 7 years (or whatever it is) will directly benefit, and everyone will benefit through the stability it will bring to the market. That is just a fact.

  89. 89
    Phoebe says:

    Obama’s mom was "not a paragon of responsibility"?!? She woke him up in the dark, every morning, to home school him for hours in English before he went to his Indonesian-speaking school. Oh, but she got pregnant by a black guy. I forgot.

  90. 90
    Napoleon says:

    "That One" is going to be the quote that was heard around the world.

    It was in the clips they played on my local morning news.

  91. 91
    TheFountainHead says:

    New Slogan:

    John McCain: Not That One.

  92. 92
    gogiggs says:

    Here’s a thing that bothers me every time I hear it: John McCain keeps saying that he knows how to get Osama Bin Laden, " I’ll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I’ll get him. I know how to get him. I’ll get him no matter what and I know how to do it. "

    If that’s so, then why is Osama Bin Laden still loose? If Mr. Country First knows how to get Bin Laden, why hasn’t he shared that information at some point in the last 7 years? Maybe he could have whispered it in Bush’s ear when he was embracing Bush, ever so tenderly, at the 2004 convention?

  93. 93
    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII says:

    If that’s so, then why is Osama Bin Laden still loose? If Mr. Country First knows how to get Bin Laden, why hasn’t he shared that information at some point in the last 7 years? Maybe he could have whispered it in Bush’s ear when he was embracing Bush, ever so tenderly, at the 2004 convention?

    Well, that’s obvious. He couldn’t give away that information previously because then he wouldn’t be able to use it in a presidential campaign!

  94. 94

    I think we’ll see a resurgence of the talk about manliness from Camp McLumps, starting … now.

    Calling Obama a terrorist isn’t working, they sure as hell don’t have anything to say about actual issues, trying to tie him to FM/FM will trigger a devastating ad about McPOW’s Legion of Lobbyists. I still don’t think they’ll intentionally scream "HE’S A N1GG3R!"

    All that’s left is calling him a limp-wristed f^g. When McPOW stands up and, in his three-octaves-higher-than-Obama’s voice, suggests that That One is That Way I don’t know if I’ll laugh or toss the TV out the window.

    Never have the deep psychosexual issues of right wingers been laid so bare.

    Never has one sentence caused such unpleasant mental imagery.

  95. 95
    TheFountainHead says:

    All that’s left is calling him a limp-wristed f^g. When McPOW stands up and, in his three-octaves-higher-than-Obama’s voice, suggests that That One is That Way I don’t know if I’ll laugh or toss the TV out the window.

    And Malkin will proclaim: "I knew it all along!"

  96. 96
    Glenn says:

    McSame was anything but respectful. Call a person any person your speaking to "That THING" is not just disrespectful, frankly it’s RUDE. This guy is a friggin bully and a gutless one @ that. If he’d had any balls left he’d would have come out swinging and gotten down and dirty like his "bitch" Sarah is doing daily. She’s out here whipping up the mob to lynch Obama for being a terrorist simp , a commie and God knows what else? McSame gets up here and hisses all night at the crowd like a 2 bit used car salesman. Please buy my old jalopy please…hisssssssssssssssssssss. This fucktard is out of gas and out of time. Go back to your retirement State and live out your sorry ass life with Miss Budweiser already and stop boring us John. Better yet dude STFU already you have NOTHING new to add to the campaign.

  97. 97
    Gus says:

    I’ve got this consolidated student loan at a real good rate that’s currently in deferral, and anything I can do to make it worth less in relation to my income is a good thing from my perspective.

    Don’t worry, the high rates of inflation that are coming will make that student loan seem more palatable.

  98. 98
    ksmiami says:

    I just wish that McCain had brought up the Ayers thing so That One* could have smacked him down hard. See McLame is a bully and a coward who would run in fear if he met Obama in a dark alley cause you all know Obama is a badass muthafuc–er, but not some leftwing unabomber.

    *(term coined by old Republican gasbag, copyright, 2008)

  99. 99
    Kamishna ya Watu Xenos says:

    Don’t worry, the high rates of inflation that are coming will make that student loan seem more palatable

    That is great so long as there is inflation. We keep throwing inflationary policies at a highly deflationary credit crunch and it is not yet working much. In a deflationary scenario even a 2.5% rate on your consolidated loan will be painful.

    Then again, in a steeply deflationary scenario, few people will have the luxury of paying anything on their student loans… let them drag out and then discharge upon death.

  100. 100
    John Cole says:

    @Anne Laurie: Exactly, Anne. The reason that polled so poorly is that because the vast majority of people pay their mortgages. While the National Review and other rejects want to pretend that this crisis was caused by loads of black people defaulting on their fannie mae barney fag loan, the simple fact of the matter is that the real crisis is with all the credit default swaps and the like.

  101. 101
    mellowjohn says:

    some time during the next debate i fully expect mcsame to reach into his pocket, pull out some ball bearings, and start rolling them around in his hand while mumbling something about strawberries.

  102. 102
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    I wonder how many people borrowed themselves upside down via HELOC’s or re-fi’s. I heard on NPR that Paulson may buy up HELOC’s as a part of his plan. Talk about rewarding bad behavior.

  103. 103
    SamFromUtah says:

    " I’ll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I’ll get him. I know how to get him. I’ll get him no matter what and I know how to do it. "

    "We know where they [WMD] are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

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