Having thoroughly debased the executive branch, the bureaucracy, the military, and the judiciary, Karl Rove Republicans are not yet finished:
This week, non-partisan fact-checking organizations like PolitiFact and FactCheck.org
have called Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) out for lies in his attack ads against Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL). But on Fox News Sunday today, former Bush political adviser Karl Rove dismissed the organizations, claiming that “they’ve got their own biases built in there.” “You can’t trust the fact-check organizations,” said Rove.
There is no truth. All things are relative. The truth is a lie. All politicians lie, so why are you so worked up about the McCain campaign? You see how this works, don’t you?
And that is exactly what they want, because once they have destroyed every component of society that Americans trust, then they can simply do whatever they want. It has worked everywhere else they have tried it- intellectuals are dismissed scornfully as coastal elites, Universities dismissed as havens of bias.
There is no consensus on evolution- just different opinions. Sure, they say that McCain’s plan will be bad for the health of the nation, but those are just different opinions, and you are biased anyway. it is just your opinion that there are no WMD in Iraq. Who knows, they may have moved them all to Syria and we were right. Your anti-Bush bias is showing. Starting to see how this works, yet?
Facts are tricky and troubling things, and get in the way of the GOP machine. Might as well destroy the rest of our non-partisan fact-checkers, as well. We are all Michael Moore, now.
*** Update ***
This.
ploeg
Sullivan gets this too.
There is really no need for despair here. This is as good as it gets for McCain, to draw even right after the convention. Some people might have been swayed temporarily by the novelty of McCain’s pick, but most people have figured out the Republican Party long ago, and will return to their original positions before long, and their positions will be newly confirmed. The only people that will be on McCain’s side by the time this is over are the people who have no idea what damage Bush and McCain have done to the Republican brand.
jrg
And you know that Republicans will believe this tripe. You can go to public freaking records to prove that McCain is lying.
In order to be a Republican, you have to be both stupid and lazy. The factcheck page on the issue has a link to the act on ilga.gov.
zuzu's petals
Must be why Dick Cheney encouraged people to go to Factcheck in 2004:
And it must be why the McCain campaign (mis)used the authority of Factcheck in at least one of their ads.
SGEW
All politicians lie*. This is often a prerequisite for the profession – at best, they must be disingenuous, or mislead, or avoid the subject, or obfuscate . . . in other words, push the truth to its limit. Of course, there are gigantic variations in scale (see, e.g., the Republican party – there’s an order of magnitude difference here), which ties into questions of agency, accountability, and guilt, but the core moral question remains the same.
You cannot be absolutely, 100% honest in politics. There are other professions that have a similar requirement (e.g., lawyer, advertiser, etc.), and, as is often the case in the aforementioned professions, the important distinction is not a black and white Lie/Truth dichotomy but a sliding scale of ethics.
On one end, there is hardly any unethical behavior – it’s more a matter of politeness (“I do not question John McCain’s qualification for president due to his advanced age.”). In the middle is simple-minded rhetoric that is understood (by reasonable people) to be a bunch of hot air and hooey (“Read my lips: No new taxes.”). And at the furthest extreme is a knowing lie that is repeated in the face of objective reality (“Sarah Palin’s record shows that she is an opponent of earmarks.”).
What we’re seeing from the McCain campaign, and their assorted hacks, flacks, and false attacks, is a total abandonment of any ethical restrictions whatsoever. It’s the difference between an overheated advertisement (e.g., “Product X is awesome dude!” – the advertiser does not actually expect consumers to be literally overwhelmed by awe) and a culpable, knowing lie (e.g., “Cigarettes do not have any negative health effects.” – when your own company’s studies show that they do).
So what we’re seeing is the difference between a somewhat sleazy trial lawyer (“My client cannot accurately recall, your honor”), and a criminal (“Hey, I was nowhere near the bank that day, your honor”).
The only way that I can see these people justifying their lies as ethical (or, rather, not unethical) is an “ends justify the means” rationale: more along the lines of, say, an undercover police officer or a spy. If you’re infiltrating the mafia, you have to lie (“Hey, no, I’m no cop man!”) and there is no real ethical conundrum. The problem here is that the mole believes that the people they’re lying to are the enemy: in a very literal sense. An enemy that is immoral, criminal, and must be destroyed.
Bottom line? The Republican party thinks that the public is the enemy.
* Yes, even Sen. Obama. He’s just hard to catch at it (i.e., is very very careful), and his lies are much more of the shading-the-truth variety, rather than the big bullshit whoppers other politicians are prone to. Which is one of the reasons I like him – he lies far, far less than any other (national) politician I’ve seen.
Charles
John, this is a story you might appreciate. We are now paying to shoot down our own Predators and possibly even to kill our own troops. You see, our military aid to Pakistan has heretofore mostly gone to build up their fighter aircraft and now the most significant air threat Pakistan faces is from the U.S…..
The link is http://www.dawn.com/2008/09/14/top5.htm
FLILF Hunter
Nail? Meet Mr. Hammer.
This is it exactly. It’s same tactic cult leaders use to indoctrinate followers: We are the light, the guardians of truth and knowledge. Everyone else out there is trying to destroy you with their wickedness and lies, but we will protect and sanctify you.
They’ve spent the last 35 years attacking, infiltrating, and corroding the educational system, government, free press, and rule of law.
This election may be the ultimate test of whether or not they succeeded.
DougJ
nd that is exactly what they want, because once they have destroyed every component of society that Americans trust, then they can simply do whatever they want. It has worked everywhere else they have tried it- intellectuals are dismissed scornfully as coastal elites, Universities dismissed as havens of bias.
This is why we’re fucked as a society. I now think our best chance is to get Palin in as quickly as possible so that we can go through our fascist-authoritarian phase and move on to being a normal Western country again.
Of course there’s the possibility she’ll live as long as Franco. But I think that even the Georgetown crowd will turn on her when she starts taking books out of the Library of Congress.
SpotWeld
Generally, I don’t trust a single given information source. Not implicitly. I don’t this blog, or really treat anything as a gold standard.
I live in a time where, for any given assertion, I can get at least a half dozen sources of reference that I can cross check to get as broad and complete picture as possible.
What Rove seems to be doing here is putting out the assumption that you can’t trust anyone but the “trusted” sources that agree with him. This is pretty much the top down information chain that the GOP pioneered with direct mailings and is attempting to set up via the blogs and other internet groups.
The fact that he is attacking some of more non-biased sources of information just makes me think that the GOP is getting plain desperate.
gbear
no
DougJ
no
“No” we shouldn’t go through the full-on crazy phase or “no” we can never be a normal Western country?
SGEW
Well, it did work for Germany. ‘Course, this is small solace for Poland (not to mention, oh, say, the Jews).
Talk about ends justify the means . . . .
bhagamu
You know, when I hear people say “reality has a liberal bias”, usually they’re just making fun of these guys. But Rove is Seriously arguing that reality does, in fact, have a liberal bias.
Just Some Fuckhead
Fuck you, SGEW. If you can’t come up with analysis that doesn’t shit all over your own candidate, you should go find another hobby.
SGEW
Remember the “reality based community” comment? They meant it.
FLILF Hunter
Well, or Germany itself for that matter. I’m not sure I want to go through the rest of the industrialized world bombing the holy crap out the U.S. and invading us and all.
SGEW
I’m sorry that you read my bit as “shit[ting] all over” my candidate. Really. I’ve been a full-throated Obama supporter since @2005. My point is that Sen. Obama’s “lies” (which are, as I said, much more of the obfuscation of meaning variety: see, e.g., his waffling on “clean coal”) are not unethical, while the Republican party’s lies are.
I am, by the way, in the legal profession, and I do not consider myself unethical for sometimes having to shade the truth (“My client has no statement regarding that incident.”). I believe in the gradation of ethics, and not in a binary, manichean world view of “good” vs. “evil.”
Dig?
DougJ
Well, it did work for Germany. ‘Course, this is small solace for Poland (not to mention, oh, say, the Jews).
Talk about ends justify the means . . . .
That’s not what I mean. Palin is so obviously a joke — even to the Georgetown dead-enders — that she wouldn’t be able to push things as far as a more “serious” fascist would. Our best chance to survive as a society might be to have our first truly fascist president be an idiot on the order of Palin or Quayle.
SGEW
Oh, and on a personal level, fuck you too JSF. Fuck you hard with a rusty jig saw.
SGEW
No no, I get it. I toyed with this idea when Rudy “OMG I’m A Literal Fascist!” Giuliani was running (and ahead in the polls!). But, having lived under his mayoralty, I believe that the harm these people could do to innocent people in this nation and around the world would outweigh any possible reform of the Federal Republic.
My hope was that he would run and the American people would categorically reject him and his fascist mindset. Instead we have lipstick on authoritarianism.
Just Some Fuckhead
You can do that when I give McCain/Palin a pass on lying because all politicians do it and when I suggest that Obama is preferable because he lies better.
Halffasthero
Depressing, isn’t it? I have watched the polls and have wondered how in the hell people make their choices.
Truth is, neither candidate can bankroll their promises they are making on the trail. The difference is that Obama can at least bow to reality. McCain either doesn’t know or doesn’t care. In the face of the obvious financial disaster his new tax cuts would inflict, the argument will be “we spend too much on entitlements” after the inevitable financial damage starts kicking in. We are going bankrupt and there isn’t a single pol willing to risk votes to tell the damn truth because of how things stand today.
Maybe I am just being negative. Someone get me some Kool-Aid that tells me I am wrong. I could use the mental break if nothing else.
SGEW
Whoa, whoa. I said Obama is preferable because he lies less and his lies (what I have found of them, which is very thin gruel indeed) are either irrelevant, immaterial, negligible, or only mildly disingenuous (remember when that word actually meant something?). In other words, small potatoes. They fall on the “ethical” side of the spectrum (i.e., as ethical as you can get in politics).
The GOP’s lies, on the other hand, are monstrous in scale, akin to Pravda or the Ministry Of Truth or [example excised due to Godwin’s Law].
Aye?
Jon H
Shorter Rove: The only source of information is The Party and its authorized messengers.
I was reading the Britannica article on fascism the other day, and so much of it is like Republican policy. The “rich people are fine, it’s people who think they’re smarter than you who are the problem” thing is there, among others.
Just Some Fuckhead
What is the fucking point, SGEW, other than you not knowing when to shut the hell up? What is the fucking point of turning a thread about McCain/Palin into a conversation about Obama lies? Jesus Christ, are you dense?
Blue Buddha
The way I put it: yeah, I know all politicians lie, but if they’re going to do it, don’t insult my intelligence. At least try to be clever and make me think about it, instead of being blatantly obvious about it.
Scott H
I was really bugged why someone so new on the national scene, Sarah Palin, seemed so familiar to me. No explanation until, in the middle of watching Tina Fey last night, it hit me.
This television show.
Notorious P.A.T.
JC I think your last two threads join together. How do people go around telling such lies? I don’t think they *themselves* believe in objective truth; it’s not just a strategy to confuse other people.
Once I was involved in a debate online about god. Someone said “you can’t prove God exists, so why believe it?” A Christian responded with “well you can’t prove the Roman Empire existed!” In other words, if you want to believe in something far-fetched, destroy all notions of objective reality and the road is open. Part of that is, of course, that if you are raised in a heavily religious household you are likely discouraged from being able to decide what is realistic and what isn’t.
Jon H
” Our best chance to survive as a society might be to have our first truly fascist president be an idiot on the order of Palin or Quayle.”
That’s irrelevant when they are surrounded by evil smart/warped people like David Addington.
Just because someone is personally stupid, you can’t assume that in office they would be stupid in way that renders them powerless or defenseless against the opposing party.
You’ll still get stupid, damaging policy overall – they save what little brain they have for self-preservation. Especially when the GOP rubes in Congress and the media are giving the administration cover.
Bostondreams
Let’s hope Obama is more Ham Tyler than Daniel Bernstein, eh?
SGEW
yeek!
I was just trying to pinpoint the difference between Obama (an ethical politician – not an oxymoron) and McCain (an unethical liar who deserves condemnation), in order to explicate and dismiss the “all politicians lie” rhetoric.
Sorry. Cripes. I know I often blurt out a big ol’ bolus o’ text and that I’m an overly prolix commenter, but what am I gonna do? Weren’t you the one who vociferously defended the commenters’ right to say whatever the fuck we want, even in the face of the wishes of our host?
Possibly (I am, after all, spending time arguing with you). Meanwhile, are you an asshole?
SGEW
BTW, note to Sarah Palin. See my last question, above, for an actual “rhetorical” question, as opposed to “hypothetical.”
Dennis - SGMM
Anyone else remember when the Republicans were all in a lather about moral relativism back in the Eighties? At the time, the harrumphing would have caused one of T. Boone Pickens wind farms to put out a gigawatt. I guess they’ve moved on.
SGEW
Chicago Tribune columnist Steve Chapman echoes my point:
t jasper parnell
Yes indeedilydoo. Palin or Quayle would never be misunderestimated like some other famous fascist by those who enabled his seizure of power:
Or those who opposed it:
This is why I come to the internets’ tubes, the quality of historical analogies. Why, just think what Hitler could have done if he had possessed America’s material and martial endowment. And before everyone starts rushing about insisting that Germany super ultra powerful, I suggest you at least consult Adam Tooze’s Wages of Destruction.
*Far right newspaper magnate who support Hitler sort of
** Far right politician instrumental in getting the senile Hindenburg to appoint Hitler chancellor
***Left wing journalist and essayist who opposed Hitler, before, during, and after the seizure of power.
Litlebritdifrnt
Maybe you guys missed this bit from Rove prior to the factcheck comment:
“McCain has gone in his ads one step too far, and sort of attributing to Obama things that are, you know, beyond the 100-percent-truth test,” said Rove. “Both campaigns ought to be careful about… there ought to be an adult who says: ‘Do we really need to go that far in this ad? Don’t we make our point and get broader acceptance and deny the opposition an opportunity to attack us if we don’t include that one little last tweak in the ad?'”
And the Obama campaign gleefully jumps in:
“In case anyone was still wondering whether John McCain is running the sleaziest, most dishonest campaign in history, today Karl Rove – the man who held the previous record – said McCain’s ads have gone too far,” said Obama campaign spokesman Tommy Vietor.
When you lose Karl Rove you are in trouble. Who’s next Bush/Cheney?
flywheelgrinding
Any man who has been in an interminable argument with a woman (or a true believer, or a conspiracy theorist), and any woman who is honest about it, will recognize that facts have no bearing at all on winning the argument. Winning the argument is the only goal. This has nothing to do with the Conscious Mind, and is only partially self-governable.
In other words, once one is in the grip of the contrasexual aspect of one’s own personality, there is only one goal and that is to win. And, since it is an inferior (or weak) aspect of one’s personality, one is not really very good at it, and one’s machinations are very transparent to the other.
Once the Anima gets involved, it’s simply a matter of who can stay with the argument the longest. I can’t find it, damnit, but I used to have a link to an interview with a guy who seemed to have pioneered this technique, at least in this country. You can trace this technique to Goebbels, of course, but then you would invoke Godwin’s Law.
Basically, the guy described repeating a lie, over and over and over and over and over and over and over (you get the picture) and then, just as you are completely sick of the lie and don’t think you can do it again, you find that it has gained acceptance.
Now, of course, both the left and right sides of our political sphere are aware of the technique and accuse the other side of using it.
This refutation of facts says that there is no such thing as objective facts, and that all is spin.
I found this on Scott Orton’s “No Comment” website on Harper’s, entitled “Superman Scooter:
It IS the totalitarian mindset, and I don’t know if it necessary to expose it first, or stop it, by any means necessary. Then of course, I’m just like them, except it’s OK because I have rationalized that it is “for a higher purpose”. Drives me mad.
First, stoke the fear. Then you can do anything.
t jasper parnell
As you no doubt know, the persistent rumor in Germany at least through 1940 after every moment of, what Momsen called, the Nazis “cumulative radicalization” was that the Army was going to “deal” with Hitler.
iluvsummr
Unfortunately, when you have a large percentage of the populace wanting to believe in that binary worldview, and the Republican party is the one party that’s ready to feed it to them, the election boils down to this: what percentage of the voting population appreciates nuance/accepts shades of grey? As a citizen, my job as I see it between now and November 4 is to get as many people (friends/family/acquaintances/strangers) as I can to appreciate this distinction, to understand that the current Republican course is a first step towards fascism, and get them to make it to the polls. I’m sure the Obama campaign gets this too. The question is are there more people who see nuance versus people who want to believe in strict binaries because that’s their best way of keeping it together in an unfathomably complex world? We’ll find out November 4th.
I’m a naturalized citizen who has lived in the US for 20 years and came here from an African country that was under a military dictatorship (now it’s supposedly a democracy, but there’s still a ways to go because we have a large Muslim population clamoring for Sharia law). The one thing that stands out for me is the difference in the press! There, the dictatorship tried to clamp down on the press by killing or detaining journalists (letter bombs were a favorite), but the truth still made it out to a large audience, however poor the quality of the writing. Here, the press self-censors to ensure unfettered access to those in power, and people can create their own reality by reading just those news sources that favor their inherent biases. In this kind of atmosphere, Rove’s ploy could work! I try to read the BBC news online, Haaretz Daily, the New York Times, the UK Guardian, the Economist, and online African papers to get a broader view of what’s going on in the world. Reading the same story from these different sources is sometimes an eye-opening experience.
liberal
John Cole wrote,
The funny thing about this is that they’re on the same page as the “postmodern” idiots of the left, who they claim to despise.
haywood jablomy
The notion that truth is relative and that there are no baseline standards was one that authentic conservatives used to abhor. they spoke about the canons of literature and science and religion with reverence and deplored the downfall into moral relativism, qroupthink and the braindead “I believe it, it makes me feel better about myself, who are you to tell me otherwise” philosophy too many liberals bought into.
the conservatives gave this up under buch-cheney, especially druing the march to war in Iraq, and with the new ticket they are dumping whatever last bits they were holding like shares of fannie and freddie. fascinating to watch. what used to be scorned as kin to an American proto-socialism has now been rebranded as “Big lies: the new individualism.”
myiq2xu
Which is the underlying premise of the Obama campaign.
Joshua Norton
You can’t trust the truth because it makes them look like lying, incompetent, traitorous, stupid, evil criminals.
And those are their redeeming qualities.
liberal
I should add, anyone here who thinks pomo is idiotic should check out the Pomo Generator. It is teh awesome!
dadanarchist
Yes, I am eagerly awaiting for the Doughy Pantload to chime in denounce Rove and the McCain campaign’s dangerous flirtation with this insidious liberal fascist ideology.
Scott H
This doesn’t mean that the people or the press ought to tolerate it, indeed that it shouldn’t be smashed in the face wherever it rears its head.
magisterludi
It is getting downright frightening how “persuadable” GOP voters are.
i have my own theory. It’s pretty fantastic, but still has logic. The theory concerns Rev Moon’s billions, Paraguay, the Bush family and a sordid cast of unpleasant individuals. Think Pinky and the Brain.
Lie baby, lie!
The question people need to start asking:
Is Karl Rove the Devil’s representative on planet Earth…or is he the Devil himself?
SGEW
I won’t make any friends here with this, but I can’t help myself.
This is, by definition, sexist. Sorry, but it is.
Jung? In this day and age? Personally, I prefer Urban Dictionary‘s definition:
As opposed to Sarah Palin, a fact that John McCain makes sure to point out when introducing her:
(h/t Feministing)
Not to dismiss your point in toto (especially your Horton* excerpt), but it’s hard to engage the GOP’s creeping totalitarianism (a point of view which I share) when I am offended by the first sentence**.
*BTW, I had a chance to talk to Prof. Scott Horton about a year ago (at the beginning of the primaries), and asked him who he was supporting in the political horse race. He said he was advising the McCain campaign. Somehow I doubt he still is. Anyone know?
** But, of course, I suppose I have “thin skin” and “clutch my pearl necklace.” Especially about issues involving race, homophobia, and sexism. I wonder why?
jcricket
It’s because Republicans are suffering under a mass delusion called psychological projection. They accuse others of relativism, because they practice it. They accuse others of hating America, because they do, and so on. A couple others pointed out up-thread that this is also utilitarian in the way a bully saying “NO, YOU ARE A POOPY-HEAD” is.
Unfortunately, we don’t have the option of saying “the only way to win is not to play”. We have to find out a way to win. To stretch a movie metaphor, I think we need to be Indiana Jones with the gun against the guy with the whip. Or, to be totally geeky, we need to be Kirk in the Kobayashi Maru scenario.
jcricket
I’m sorry, but I think they gave this up under Reagan. When they clung to discredited theories about taxation (Laffer curve anyone?), hitched their wagon to the one carrying the creationists and started opposing sex education, equal rights for gays, etc. in earnest – that’s when it began. When your ideology is basically 100% wrong, but you need the votes of those that agree with you to win, you’ve morally bankrupt. Saint Ronnie, at least, quietly agreed to go along with the small raising of taxes once it became obvious his massive tax cuts were incurring massive deficits – but that was in private. Since then it’s been nothing but a downward spiral into wedge politics at the expense of truth, reason and the America I know we could be.
PS. How anyone who is all about the oil can think the earth is 6000 years old is beyond me – Hello. FOSSIL fuels anyone?
SGEW
Also funny: arguing with a post-structuralist deconstructionist about science. They start to sound like Creationist nutcases after a while. Hee!
Also (h/t Harper’s):
dslak
This is redundant. Deconstructionists are, by defintion, post-structuralist. That’s right: PWNED!
SGEW
(hangs head in post-modern shame)
georgia pig
My waking nightmare: McCain is deliberately trying to lose without it looking that way. Looks like Lehman Bros is going tits up tomorrow, which could set off a chain reaction taking down Goldman, Merrill and possibly at least a couple of major banks and insurers. Total financial meltdown. Obama wins but inherits a complete fucking mess. Grover Norquist’s wet dream is fulfilled, as the Feds are on the hook for the big shitpile and need to invoke “austerity measures” to receive foreign investment. Of course, can’t cut defense spending, what with all those scary terrorists in Pakistan. End result? “Liberalism” discredited, Weimar all over again.
Jim Morrison
No One Here Gets Out Alive
Bostondreams
I have to say, since his ‘unscheduled break,’ Sully seems particularly..angry. It has been an interesting read, and I can certainly see why one might get pissed about the freaking CORNER calling one ‘insane.’
JL
georgia pig, If Obama is the next President the economy will suffer for the first few years before he can start to turn it around. With a McCain presidency and Phil Gramm’s advice, it will never turn around.
Bill
Something in the Air, almost 40 years ago.
Barack ‘Thunderclap’ Obama
LaurainAustin
The “average” voter is getting wise to Rove and the posers who are the Repblican Party’s leading “conservatives” these days. Their goal is to be in a position to declare what reality is for the rest of us, and they have set about achieving their goal by getting us to question everything our society has relied upon as trustworthy institutions of reason — those things that provide the basis of our self-governing.
According to Rove and his ilk, we can no longer trust our courts and our system of justice (therefore, we must have Guantanamo and new rules for monitoring phone calls and emails, etc.) We can no longer trust our universities to teach anything but lies that are harmful to our way of life. We can no longer trust our press, except for Fair and Balanced Fox News, to present information that is no unairly biased by elitist liberal views. We can no longer trust our nations scientists, because they have been manipulated to serve a liberal political agenda that is harmful to our way of life. We can no longer trust our own intelligence agencies or military to act efficiently and in our nation’s best interest. We can no longer put confidence in the professionals who staff our government agencies to carry out their jobs in a professional, unbiased, non-partisan manner.
I think Karl Rove truly wants to have the ability to control reality. Seriously. His attempts to manipulate Americans’ perception of reality — to strip them of their own powers of reasoning so that he’ll be free to deceive them — is evil to its core.
I’m grateful that ever greater numbers of Americans are realizing that he is NOT brilliant at all. He’s just a crafty, power hungry liar — that’s it. When you think about it, compared to truly brilliant and virtuous humans, he appears very small and stupid.
PeterJ
Seems like insanity gives you lots of links.
Being called insane by the asylum over at the Corner, I guess that means that you are doing something right…
FLILF Hunter
All the psychoanalysis in the world isn’t going to stop the GOP from doing the nasty to the country. K.I.S.S. is the best antidote to the pig-lipstickers…
To wit: Republicans are ONLY good at two things: Lying and stealing.
Repeat early, repeat often.
justme
Shorter Rove,
Who ya gonna believe? Me, or your lyin’ eyes?
God, I really hope that we can bring the DOJ back from the dead soon.
Zifnab25
I think you’re wrong. Defense spending has always been a sacred cow and Clinton had to fight like hell to make the meager cuts he made, but under GW we’ve done such huge amounts of outsourcing and the military industrial complex has been doing serious consolidation, that cutting the ridiculously bloated military budget could be easier than you think.
Just a freeze on new contracts or dumping a handful of failed projects could free up tens of billions of dollars. The Iraq War costs us $10 billion a month, after all. You’d be surprised what $10 billion a month can do when its not being pissed away in the desert.
I think the military industrial complex is as deep in this mess as anybody else. When the dominos start falling, they won’t be spared.
bago
Just imagine this came 40 minutes ago. I was playing a game of db connection error and got held up by the second level boss.
It has to do with the daddy complex.
Many people need a big strong man to tell them what to do.
This is why you have various cults, religions, etc, because a lot of people never get over the fear of having to think for themselves.
If they do that, they might have to re-organize their thoughts about a lot of things, and that’s work, and they could be wrong, so it’s much easier to trust in your superiors.
In other words, Ignorance is Bliss.
bago
Also, It’s not like the Laffer curve is disproven, it’s just that the peak occurs closer to 70-80# rather than 30-40%.
I mean shit coprolites, people pay absurd markup for diamonds even though they are just cheap carbon mostly held in De Beers vaults.
photonaton
I’m just sitting here, shaking my head, wondering which fork in the road took us from a country which celebrates the best and the brightest to one which revels in the worst and the dimmest.
jack fate
WAR IS PEACE; FREEDOM IS SLAVERY; IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
Welcome to the preview of American Fascism™.
(Normally this would be meant “in snark” but this time, alas, it’s not. It’s coming, folks. I’m not yet ready to surrender so easily, but make no mistake, authoritarianism has taken a hold in the American psyche – even among some alleged progressives. *cough*DLC-mindset*cough*)
Notorious P.A.T.
*Which party do you want to win in November?*
Dennis - SGMM
The military-industrial complex is “too big to fail.” We must keep it alive just like our failed automakers and our abysmally failed financial system. Otherwise, the country might be in debt to the tune of close to $40,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. We might be hostage to countries that really don’t like us for the gas to get to our jobs. Why, there might even be millions of homes in foreclosure. There might be… Whoops, never mind.
Brian J
This is actually a brilliant, if entirely pathetic and sleazy, tactic. Rove knows damn well that these organizations are usually on the money, but he also knows that if he creates enough confusion about what is legitimate and what isn’t, people who are unsure will have an excuse to vote on more superficial things. In other words, someone who isn’t checking the blogs like we are might think, “I’m unsure whether or not Palin really supported the bridge, but I like her and I like what she’s saying, so I will vote for McCain.” The only hope is that, like someone who doesn’t know when to stop pushing his luck, McCain and every other Republican will go to the well one too many times and it will backfire, earning him fewer votes than another strategy.
plus C
It might be unfair to refer to McCain’s team as Rove Republicans anymore, since Rove himself now says McCain has gone too far.
Adam
“Which party do you want to win in November?”
I truly do not understand why veteran posters keep responding to this idiot troll’s comments.
jcricket
I dunno. Last time we had an epic financial meltdown we got the New Deal. When the American public realizes the private sector fucked them over something awful, they turn to the government for help. I think there’s an equal possibility that if Obama wins, and it really is this bad, that we get the “New New Deal” or something close to it.
Note that I didn’t mention this would be an awful scenario, even if we do get universal healthcare and even sensible re-regulation of the financial industry eventually. During the wrenching in-between times there would be tons of hardship, all avoidable, if we’d only listened to those dirty fucking hippies.
oh really
I think everyone needs to relax about Palin. If she makes it to the vice presidency or better still all the way to the top, we will all be secure in the knowledge that even though Palin herself isn’t exactly qualified, she will be getting expert advice from the “First Dude,” her husband Todd Palin, a guy who not only graduated from high school, but has actually taken some college courses, too.
Thus will Mrs. Palin’s Russia gazing foreign policy experience be backed up by Todd, champion snowmobile racer and high school graduate.
President Palin can then fill her cabinet with childhood friends, fire the professional bureaucracy and restaff it with rugged individualists from the Land of the Midnight Sun. Anyone who refuses to take her newly written loyalty oath will be history. I think we can all agree that it will be the highest concentration of raw talent, experience, and in-depth knowledge the US government has ever had.
That should so horrify everyone else in the world that most of them will simply die of heart failure brought by a combination of disbelief, fear, and violent spasms of hysterical laughter. I suppose there will be quite a few strokes as well.
In the unlikely event of a crisis, Todd will immediately leave his post supervising the White House Snow Machine Garage and hustle into the Oval Office, where he can dip his grease-covered hands into the can of Goop Sarah keeps on her desk for emergency situations. Hands clean, and clasped in front of him, Todd can then join Sarah on her knees for a forty-five minute prayer to the Baby Jeebus. Inspired by the Divide Little Guy, they will defuse the situation through a combination of her bubbly can-do Christian determination and Todd’s no-nonsense, high school social studies expertize. How could anything go wrong?
It goes without saying that the American people will rally behind their regular gal president and her regular guy hubby. A new holiday, called Ignorance Day, will finally recognize the culmination of the trend the US has been following for decades.
What’s to worry about?
w vincentz
The “meltdown” will be epic. Greenspan said today that this is a once in 100 years. CNBC had a good report on global US debt funding. Seems that foreign lenders are scrambling to divest dollars.
The devaluation of the dollar (which is already devalued) will continue. Inflation in a tumbling economy is evident now. The “global house of cards” has started to fall.
And, to the “new dealers” out there, FDR worked his magic on the promise of the US to repay the debt incurred. That promise is no longer operative.
FDR had WWII to invigorate the economy into the manufacture of war materiel. At present, that’s still the major manufacturing in the US. Don’t believe me? Just ask McCain why he’s so opposed to “earmarks”. Could it be that three of the top pentagon suppliers are based in his home state?
I wish you all well. This will be the “mother” of all depressions.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
I repeat: He’s Ratfucker2xu for a reason.
flywheelgrinding
Well, hello SGEW! Way to call it up, flywheel. Bait, fish.
Sorry to be so long in getting back, but the other half made me do some of that stuff in the honey-do jar. And when I say made, I am not kidding. The best deal I could strike was I would do just the stuff in the jar when I started, not anything she could add while I was busy. I really can’t hardly stand creeping honey-do.
I had something like that in my first draft, but I took it out. Didn’t figure I needed to sneak up on it. And I have a clean shirt on, so you didn’t offend me by calling me a sexist. I been called way worse. Plus, I’m just no longer vulnerable to offense in this regard. I’ve seen too much.
Well, you know, if I say that my dog is more likely to kill my chickens that my cat is, does that make me a speciesist? Admittedly, given the right circumstances, the cat is equally liable to kill the chickens as the dog is, relative to size and opportunity, but generally the dog is more likely. But we both know that this isn’t about dogs and cats, it is about humans and their interior strengths and weaknesses. If I admit that I have it within me to turn into the worst sort of crank, implacable in my opinions, then I disempower that trait in myself, and my language is
more clearermore lucid. I’m onto myself, you see. I’ve ratted myself out. To myself.Yes, Jung in this day and age and venue (Shirley, you must be kidding about the Urban Dictionary). If we think we are above taking a look at our inner landscapes, the opposition sure isn’t. I’m glad you could recognize my terms, SGEW. I generally believe that a cursory examination of some of these things will suffice for most of us; anima and animus, shadow and projection. After all, there are these “sold-out” Jungian types plying their knowledge in advertising and politics.
Wouldn’t have the foggiest. I myself reach for the more vulnerable parts when I reads certain things.
Yeah, them dirty fu… Wait, that’d be my homies! (I think I can feel a flashback coming on.
Must. Get. In. The. Ekornes. Aaah!
Rick
I expect there are theologians who might argue that Karl Rove’s efforts to render all things meaningless and relative could be construed as the Devil’s work.
Sometimes while reading about or watching the current Republican machine slouching towards the White House I think of James Blish’s Black Easter.
gil mann
I’m not sure it’s sexism so much as the post-facto rationalization of someone who gets bested by women on a regular basis.
Kudos to flywheel for letting it lead to philosphical musings. I just tell myself the cleavage threw me.
ThymeZone
John, you know we love you man, but let’s be plain: We knew how this works in 2002. We knew it in 1992.
We knew that the WMD thing was a scam before they started the war. It never made any sense, the idea that a pipsqueak country like Iraq would actually try to threaten the US and bring about certain crushing rebuke. Hussein was a thief, not a madman bent on world or even regional domination, all he wanted was to be left alone to steal the oil money. Which made him no worse than the Shah of Iran, who used to dine at the White House in the East Room when he was stealing the oil money.
A lot of us knew these things, a long time ago. The question now is, how do we take the country back from these fucking potatoheads? If that sounds familiar, it’s because it’s the same thing I said back in 2005 when I first came here. You yelled mean things at me then. Now, I think we are on the same team.
So, what’s the strategy? Where, from here?
flywheelgrinding
Sure has been true for much of my life. Now I’m particular about the bait I byte.
liberal
jcricket wrote,
Yes, well, look what happened in Europe at the time.
liberal
photonaton wrote,
Wha? Since when did people in the US generally celebrate the brightest? OK, people do celebrate business cunning, but that’s about it AFAICT.
oh really
I’ll bet the “average” voter has no idea who Karl Rove is.
I think you’re making the same mistake politicians always make — let’s call it the Fallacy of the American Voter.
“Americans aren’t stupid.” It’s repeated in every election cycle. Yet, there was no support for this contention decades ago when I first heard it, and much less today.
The average voter, average American, or whatever formulation you want to compose is both stupid and uninformed. Worse still, with the advent of sources like Fox News, I’m willing to bet the average voter today is more misinformed than ever before. That may be even worse than being uninformed, because it is probably much harder to change a misunderstanding or misperception than it is to fill a void.
Stupid can have a lot of meanings. For our purposes either the inability to learn or the utter lack of interest in learning should suffice.
dslak
Flywheelgrinding is, at least, guilty of making a hasty generalization about all women from a small sample size. Any systemic differentiation between persons on the basis of their gender is considered to be sexism.
Obviously, this makes clarifying ‘sexism’ problematic, because that makes ‘all women have vaginas’ a sexist statement. It is however fair to say that FWG is being sexist, and in an insulting way, when he says that women are basically impervious to facts when it comes to winning an argument. My academic field is rife with women who excel at making arguments regardings matters of fact.
charlotte
Okay, now that all this good stuff has been broken down for us by those in the big time know, when do we get to storm the castle so that we may hang’em high? … I’ve got nothing but time and am definitely fired up and ready to go.
My bet is that Americans have become signficantly, if only slightly, less stupid in the last 8 years.
As for Karl Rove, what’s his story? Does he ever get laid? He always looks so happy, doesn’t he? Always ready to pack it in for the day and head off for some schnapps and schnitzel.
PeterJ
I blame the invention of the Knork, the Spork, and the Splayd.
Those are anything but elitist.
bago
Well, you know, if I say that my dog is more likely to kill my chickens that my cat is, does that make me a speciesist?
Well, by definition, yes.
If all other things being equal, species makes the difference in your assessment, it is inherently specious. Err, speciesist.
w vincentz
Lehman Brothers will go belly up tomorrow AM. Employees went in today to empty their desks and take home personal items. Barklay’s bailout failed.
This is only the beginning of the major crash.
Down go the cards, where they land, nobody knows.
dslak
As H.L. Mencken once said, “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.” I haven’t seen any compelling evidence yet to suggest that he was wrong.
phd-must be elitist
I’ve got a PhD (I know, elitist blah blah). However, when designing course objectives, I use something called the Perry scheme of cognitive development. I wont go into the details (you can use google scholar), but relativism is a middle stage of intellectual growth. To get 20 yr olds out of this stage takes a lot of work and concerted effort in course design and evaluation methods. To say that the county has gone to “everything is relative” is to say that the country has taken a step back in its cognitive development. Depressing.
bago
For example, if you think an Australian human from Sydney is more likely to say “Pickles, thanks.” than a gecko, then you are inherently speciousest, using the species of an animal to determine the probable outcome of a given event. That and the oral structures present to make speech. To argue otherwise is just specious.
gil mann
Reading his stuff these days is downright eerie. I was kinda glad to find out he was anti-Semitic, just to know he was capable of being wrong about something.
dslak
We don’t discuss the anti-semitism of 20th century American icons, because everybody knows that we fought in WWII to satiate working-class Americans’ burning desire to stop the Holocaust.
oh really
Charlotte, I’m having a hard time deciphering “significantly, if only slightly…” But however it is clarified, I don’t think it is true.
Note: in 2000 the American people gave Al Gore a plurality over George Bush. The Supreme Court, Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, and the Electoral College gave the election to Bush.
In 2004, after four years of alarming incompetence and dishonesty, the American people (apparently) gave Bush a plurality over Kerry and he again won the Electoral College, but this time without the need for help from Justice Scalia and his corrupt brethren.
That doesn’t sound like smarter; not significantly; not slightly; not in numbers, if not degree; or vice versa.
The trend does not appear to be in the direction of better intelligence, better education, better information, or better judgment.
Further evidence of this trend is that now after eight years of Bush’s monstrous incompetence and dishonesty, John McCain, who promises, at best, more of the same, is not only in contention, but possibly even leading. To make matters worse, anyone with any intelligence ought to be able to see that McCain is incompetent, stupid, and has incomparably poor judgment (see Sarah Palin).
How could anyone conclude that the American people are in any way or to any degree smarter now than they were eight years ago?
Karl is, so they say, married. No one I know can believe that is possible, so the idea that he might also be getting laid (or even that he has ever gotten laid) is one that it is simply impossible to contemplate.
For the mental health of everyone, please never again mention the words Rove and laid in the same paragraph. I’ll be fasting for at least two days now.
t jasper parnell
It was in the 1880s when colleges and universities began to introduce sports as a means of calming the “warfare” between students and professors and, increasingly, the BMOC became a muscle instead of an egg head. You can look it up.
gil mann
Whoa, man, check out Captain Bringdown over here.
I still say the Third Reich was a plot by the nascent film industry to instill the image of a two-dimensionally iconic villain in people’s minds so as to make life easier for screenwriters.
And who runs Hollywood? Exactly.
dslak
I was trying to obliquely make the point that the anti-semitism of American society prior to the end of WWII too often goes unexamined. I seem to have failed.
wasabi gasp
Palin will fix this mess. She knows economics, she lives near a bank.
gil mann
No no, I got it. I’s jus’ teasin’ an account of it’s like this deep, weighty subject worthy of discussion (and revision), preferably when you’re not high and watching “V for Vendetta.”
Sorry I brought it up. Which I did, apparently.
Delia
Well,when flywheelgrinding first posted his deep thoughts, I was offended by his sexism. When SGEW posted his comment about sexism, I was going to thank him for pointing it out. By now, I just think flywheelgrinding is on too much crystal meth, has been in a bad marriage too many years, or both. Me, I’ve known too many persons of both genders who play this game.
All you can do is alert everyone who will listen to the game being played and stop arguing with the players.
jcricket
There are studies to back this up – that lies work, and even after debunked, people still have residual feelings about someone (a candidate) based on those lies.
I think we’re all missing/dancing around the point when we talk about the “average” voter. The fact is that 50%+ of the people voted for Gore, and almost 50% voted for Kerry (and we’re all complaining about what a bad candidate he is). It’s about the wedge politics. Rove, et. al. have been enormously successful at two things: Forging an unlikely coalition of religious nuts, isolationists, racists, anti-immigrationists and anti-tax zealots; And peeling a couple extra percentage points from the “undecideds” (think “average voters”) with various targeted strategies.
We don’t need to peel apart the coalition – it may fracture on its own (I think the libertarians/fiscal conservatives _might_ just leave on their own). We just need to focus on the few percentage points that could welcome a message crafted to them.
I don’t think there’s an “average” or “typical” voter anymore. That’s a myth spread by people like David Brooks, who divide America into the “coastal elites” and “real Americans”. There aren’t 2 americas, there are 1000s of Americas. And the Republicans play well to enough of these constituencies to put together the bare majority required to keep the presidency in their hands.
Remember that even after the great “reshaping” of 94 it only took 10 years for it all to come undone. Republicans aren’t all powerful, and they have no more tapped into the average people at a deep level than anyone.
Delia
Here’s something strange. Secession movements are growing across the land. Not just Todd Palin’s little Alaska Independence Party, but people in many states or groups of states are beginning to talk about fomenting secession because of the broken federal government. I guess there’s still a lot further down things can go . . . .
jcricket
There are studies to back this up – that lies work, and even after debunked, people still have residual feelings about someone (a candidate) based on those lies.
I think we’re all missing/dancing around the point when we talk about the “average” voter. The fact is that 50%+ of the people voted for Gore, and almost 50% voted for Kerry (and we’re all complaining about what a bad candidate he is). It’s about the wedge politics. Rove, et. al. have been enormously successful at two things: Forging an unlikely coalition of religious nuts, isolationists, racists, anti-immigrationists and anti-tax zealots; And peeling a couple extra percentage points from the “undecideds” (think “average voters”) with various targeted strategies.
We don’t need to peel apart the coalition – it may fracture on its own (I think the libertarians/fiscal conservatives _might_ just leave on their own). We just need to focus on the few percentage points that could welcome a message crafted to them.
I don’t think there’s an “average” or “typical” voter anymore. That’s a myth spread by people like David Brooks, who divide America into the “coastal elites” and “real Americans”. There aren’t 2 americas, there are 1000s of Americas. And the Republicans play well to enough of these constituencies to put together the bare majority required to keep the presidency in their hands.
It’s that bare majority, at a national level, we need to focus on. At the local/state level focusing more on those local/state concerns seems to be working
jcricket
sorry bout the double posting.
Just Some Fuckhead
I think of him as a Mike D. with interactivity.
oh really
In one sense, I think you’re right, but in another important sense I disagree.
I don’t assign all stupid or uninformed voters to the Republican side. There are millions of stupid or poorly informed Democrats. I do think there may be many more seriously misinformed Republicans than Democrats and Fox News and its ilk can take credit for that. Republicans today also seem to have a much greater tolerance of hypocrisy in their own candidates than many Democrats do.
However, I think most American voters (hence typical or average) are not well enough informed to vote responsibly. They may have an inkling of what “their” candidate represents, but little accurate detailed knowledge. Further, and worse, they have very little understanding of history, economics, math, and most other intellectual disciplines. (Whoops, I really didn’t want to leave out logic.)
You can’t read blogs, or newspaper comment sections, or letters to the editor and encounter any of these people. The writers, commenters, etc. represent a tiny sliver of the population. If you read RedState, you’ll find lots of misinformation, but there is a pathology among those types that is much more serious than lack of information or belief in misinformation — everything is dominated by ideology. Truth is defined by ideology. Obama is not qualified, but Sarah Palin is. There is so much willful ignorance and it is held so fiercely that rational discussion is impossible. Even so, RedState regulars have much more information than typical Americans. Anyone with a shred of integrity knows that if Sarah Palin were pro-choice and pro-embryonic stem cell research the Right would have savaged her much like they did Harriet Miers.
Martin
Well, the economy keeps looking better. Say goodby to Merrill Lynch and it looks like AIG and Lehman Bros. may be right behind them.
Thank Phil Gramm, McCain economic advisor. Oh, and no whining.
liberal
gil mann wrote,
I was under the impression that Mencken was bigoted towards lotsa groups—practically an equal opportunity bigot.
IIRC he occasionally used phrases like “the Jew in him” to refer to positive character traits.
oh really
I just went back and watched the Palin interview again.
I’m sorry, the woman is an idiot. How could anyone watching that interview say that a) she’s intelligent, b) she’s knowledgeable, c) she’s ready to be vice president (hell, she didn’t sound to me like a credible mayoral candidate).
a) There’s no sign of intelligence in that interview. Her answers are usually non-responsive, often evasive, and never deep or thoughtful. She demonstrates zero understanding of any issue about which she’s asked. Her answers are laughable. All she knows is what she believes and it was obvious in places that she’s probably toning that down to after the election is over.
b) Shallow, shallow, shallow. Embarrassing.
c) Personally, I didn’t see any qualities that would lead me to believe she will ever be ready for any high elective office (and that includes the one she currently occupies).
We’ve lowered the bar so far in this country that a flake like Sarah Palin can be offered up as credible. Sarah says she’s ready, so I guess that means she’s ready. One thing that was visible in abundance in the interview was ego. She looks a lot like George W. Bush to me. Shallow, arrogant, ignorant and utterly convinced that she has what the world needs. McCain will be worse than Bush. Palin will be worse than Bush, Cheney, and McCain.
We are doomed.
Kat
Original contains many links not included here.
Pro-McCain Group Dumping 28 Million Terror Scare DVDs in Swing States
Sept 12
(UPDATE 9/13 – 70 newspapers in swing states have been paid to distribute Obsession this weekend and next, which means not all of the DVDs have been delivered yet. Check the list at the end of this post to see if your newspaper is one of them, and let them know how you feel about their participation in this shameless propaganda campaign.)
The program was originally shown on Fox News in the days leading up to the 2006 mid-term elections, and far right-wing activist David Horowitz toured the country screening the film on college campuses during 2007. Mainstream religious groups have called Obsession biased and divisive. It cuts between scenes of Nazi rallies and footage of Muslim children being encouraged to become suicide bombers.
This week, 28 million copies of a right-wing, terror propaganda DVD are being mailed and bundled in newspaper deliveries to voters in swing states. The 60-minute DVDs, titled Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against the West, are landing on doorsteps in a campaign coinciding with the 7th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks. Funding is coming from a New York-based group called the Clarion Fund, a shadowy outfit whose financial backers are unclear.
The program was originally shown on Fox News in the days leading up to the 2006 mid-term elections, and far right-wing activist David Horowitz toured the country screening the film on college campuses during 2007. Mainstream religious groups have called Obsession biased and divisive. It cuts between scenes of Nazi rallies and footage of Muslim children being encouraged to become suicide bombers.
Much more at the link…
UPDATE 9/13 – Greg Mitchell of Editor & Publisher has more details. And here’s a state-by-state list of most of the 70 newspapers in swing states that have agreed to deliver this garbage to their subscribers:
Colorado – Boulder Daily Camera, Centennial Citizen, Denver Post, Fort Collins Coloradoan, Greeley Tribune
Iowa – Daily Nonpareil, Des Moines Register, Iowa City Press Citizen, Quad City Times, Sioux City Journal
Indiana – South Bend Tribune
Florida – Daily Commercial, Florida Times-Union, Ft. Lauderdale El Sentinel, Ft. Myers News Press, Miami Herald, Ocala Star Banner, Orlando Sun Sentinel, Palm Beach Post, Tampa Tribune, Tallahassee Democrat, St. Petersburg Times, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Michigan – Detroit Free-Press, Flint Journal, Grand Rapids Press, Lansing State Journal
Missouri – Springfield News-Leader
Nevada – Las Vegas Review-Journal/Sun, Nevada Appeal, Reno Gazette-Journal
New Hampshire – Portsmouth Herald News, Union Leader
New Mexico – Clovis News Journal, Hobbs News-Sun, Rio Rancho Observer
Ohio – Columbus Dispatch, Dayton Daily News, Middletown Journal, Morning Journal, Toledo Blade, Youngstown Vindicator
North Carolina – Charlotte Observer, Raleigh News & Observer
Pennsylvania – Bucks Co. Courier Times, Erie Times-News, Morning Call, Philadelphia Inquirer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Reading Eagle, The Patriot-News
Virginia – Sun-Gazette, Virginian-Pilot
Wisconsin – Green Bay Press-Gazette, Janesville Gazette, Journal Times, La Crosse Tribune, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel)
From a post at Daily Kos:
The Clarion Fund who created “Obsession” is a right wing group. “Obsession” appears to be mostly the concept of one man, Peter Mier. Sadly the Clarion Fund is a tax exempt group. I wonder if it is legal for them to use their tax exempt status to try to manipulate an election.
zuzu's petals
Best new DNC website:
Count the Lies
Complete with a handy-dandy lie-counter. I wonder if it’s embedable.
Original Lee
I talked with a friend over the weekend who doesn’t like McCain but is planning to vote for him because of Palin. She feels Palin can represent the average woman’s point of view in McCain’s administration, and it’s about time, too.
When I pointed out that Palin is incredibly ignorant, she said, “She’s smart – she’ll learn.”
When I asked her how comfortable she felt with Palin being President because McCain’s chances of serving out a complete term were about 50-50, she dismissed the possibility out-of-hand.
When I asked her how she felt about having somebody who didn’t even listen to her own doctor when it got in the way of something she wanted to do possibly being President, she said this showed she was able to think for herself, and this was a good thing.
She then claimed that Obama is a Communist and that he wants to give 8% of our money to the UN, and she will never never vote for him.
Bottom line after much discussion: Palin is a woman who has had 5 kids and is pro-life, and that’s enough for her.
*Sigh.*
Original Lee
Oh, and if you go to the “Count the Lies” website linked above, I think you’ll find that the reason Rove is calling factcheck.org and their ilk biased is because they have called the McCain campaign out at least twice for misusing or distorting quotes from their (factcheck’s) press releases.
Tatiana
great post hope to see some additional comments here:)