Russians ground forces are now in Georgia:
Russian tanks and troops moved through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advanced on the city of Gori in central Georgia on Sunday night, for the first time directly assaulting a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.
Georgian tanks were dug into positions outside Gori and planning to defend the city, said Shota Utiashvili, an official in Georgia’s interior ministry. He said the city of Gori was coming under artillery and tank fire. There was no immediate comment from Russia.
This just got a lot more perilous.
*** Update ***
An interesting take.
TenguPhule
Looks like this could be over quicker then expected.
4tehlulz
Apparently, Putin decided to be a bigger dick than Saakashvili.
Joshua Norton
I wonder if Fox Noise has stopped talking about Edwards long enough to figure out this is all going on?
TenguPhule
The Penis Measuring Contest from Hell.
TenguPhule
No. SATSQ.
nightjar
It changes things for the people of Greater Georgia. but It’s hard to believe Putin wants to conquer and occupy the entire country. What would they have to gain by that? Maybe all that oil money and recent swelling of nationalism has gone to the Russian head.
4tehlulz
Shorter Putin:
Independent pipeline?
In my Zone?
NOT ON MY FUCKING WATCH
John Cole
Not much to laugh about this but Red State brings the funny:
From the LA Times:
Discuss.
nightjar
My Parakeet has more brainpower than these knuckleheads.
SmilingPolitely
If I’m reading that correctly, it looks like Saakashvili is fucked.
Martin
Russia can’t afford for Georgia to acquire WMDs and they are a state supporter of terrorism. The next warning to Moscow may be in the form of a mushroom cloud. Georgia is a member of the axis of evil. Anyone calling for a withdrawal from Georgia is a defeatist and traitor to Russia. Russia is fighting the war on terror over there, so they don’t need to fight it at home.
See, anybody can do it.
calipygian
Red State can’t even get the most basic facts right – it was Georgia that entered South Ossetia under cover of the Olympics, not the other way around.
Sigh.
ploeg
If the Russians decided to stay in territory beyond the disputed Georgian territory of South Ossetia, they would be in the midst of an unfriendly population and would certainly be courting trouble. I think what’s going on is that the Russians are applying an extra bit of pressure to clarify the strategic situation and let the Georgians know where they stand (akin to what the Israelis did in 1973, when they advanced beyond the Golan Heights to within 18 miles of Damascus before the ceasefire took effect).
Tim F.
My gut tells me that Georgia is headed right back into the old empire.
Martin
Damn, I just saw a Nike ad with Isaac Hayes singing the Natl. Anthem. It’s not the editing that’s impressive, but getting NBC to swap it into the rotation in short order. That’s almost creepy.
calipygian
MOre funny from the comments section at Red State:
Go to war against Russia? Are they fucking kidding? Do they know about this?
calipygian
I don’t think it’s that.
My opinion: Regime change, bitches!!!!111!1!
Mark S.
My gut tells me that perhaps, just perhaps, the Georgian army will liberate Moscow before Christmas.
Googootz
Ossetia == Kosovo
Georgia == Serbia
Russia == US & NATO
Putin says to world : S*ck it, bee-otch
Zetsuki
Normally I’d look at the difference in military might and say “owned,” but then I think of Iraq.
Richard Bottoms
>My gut tells me that Georgia is headed right back into the >old empire.
Didn’t I spend 10 1/2 in Germany precisely because of this shit? When exactly did we start kissing Russian ass? Oh I know, right about the time President Potato Head looked into Putin’s soul. We should be seeing that clip played over and over 24/7 with the current administration being called to task by every media outlet in the country.
Who lost Georgia motherfucker.
empty
No, he just wants to exert control over the pipeline passing just a bit to the southeast of Gori. The Baku-Tblisi-Pipeline carries oil from Azerbaijan bypassing Russia and the proposed AGT pipeline will carry gas along the same route. Russia was pretty pissed about the proposed Trans-Caspian pipeline and successfully blocked it. They had also strongly opposed BTC but at that time (at the turn of the century) their influence was not sufficient to block it and BTC has been functioning for the last two years. (The flow was disrupted when the Kurdish separatist group the PKK blew up a portion – or at least they laid claim to the explosion.) I think Russians saw an opportunity to make up for their prior weakness in being unable to stop BTC and will now make use of the changed situation on the ground to influence things in a more “positive” direction. The Israelis are also heavily invested in this because BTC already carries oil for Israel from Azerbaijan and there have been ongoing talks (near conclusion) between Turkey and Israel about pumping oil from Ceyhan to the Trans-Israel pipeline.
Ninerdave
I think it’s been well discussed what a bunch of idiots they are.
Of course the McCain camp is already trying to flame the red scare:
Tim F.
Who do you suppose will take over after the Georgian president retires “for his health”? If he gets the independence that Moscow granted Hungary and Poland I’ll be shocked.
Richard Bottoms
Eat it bitches.
Kirk
Answer – more oil. Slightly longer: GAZprom controls almost every oil and natural gas pipeline that transits the Caucusus mountains, moving the stuff from what used to be Eastern USSR and from the middle east. There is one pipeline they don’t control. A large part of that pipeline lies in southeast Georgia.
Near monopoly of Asia to Europe oil/natural gas becomes total monopoly of same. And holding all the cards grants really significant leverage when it comes to influencing world actions. “Well, you do what you must regarding the UN decision the US wants. By the way, we think we need to do maintenance on the gas lines to your nation. I regret it, but it’ll be a 10% shortfall for a few weeks.”
nightjar
Imagine that, a large powerful nation invading a small one to control oil under the guise of needed regime change. It’s like Deja Vu all over again.
ht#8
Joe
Picking a fight with the Russians is not a good idea. However, I feel that that last link about the Russian strategic arsenal doesn’t adequately describe the current state of their forces.
To be fair, the Russian strategic forces are sort of in shambles. For example, that link lists only 15 supersonic strategic bombers (the Blackjacks)- the rest are propeller driven behemoths that wouldn’t last two seconds in actual combat. The subs aren’t on constant patrol like US Ohio-class boats are, and the reliability of the strategic rocket forces is somewhat debatable (there’s been a downgrade in maintenance since the collapse of the Soviet Union).
This isn’t to downplay the Russian nuclear capability, but it’s a far cry from the danger posed by Soviet forces a couple decades ago.
Lavocat
I’ll hazard a few guesses here:
1) Putin is clearly in charge and he is making it known that Russia is PISSED and will REMAIN PISSED until the Georgians do something about their incredibly politically-naive and militarily-stupid (40-year old American-trained lawyer from New York) prime minister – like a coup (something that happens a lot in the Caucasus);
2) Putin is locking in Russian territorial gains in South Ossetia before it retreats from the Georgian heartland, causing as much damage as possible to Georgian infrastructure for years to come (like Georgia’s primary airfield outside of Tblisi – virtually destroyed by Russian heavy bombers);
3) Meanwhile, Russia is provoking war in Abkhazia in a two-fer-one fire sale (perhaps they’d like to carve away Adjaria, in the southwest, as well?); and
4) Putin is showing the West how easy it would be for the Russians to disable or destroy the BTC pipeline (which could cause global oil to jump a good $30 per barrel).
Remember, the Georgians had a 2,000 man contingent in King George’s Coalition of the Shilling, in Iraq (who are now being air-lifted back home, thanks to Uncle Sam), making them the third largest coalition partner, after Britain.
The U.S. also trained the Georgian army at length and is their major arms supplier.
This is Russia’s – specifically Putin’s – way of saying to the U.S. – specifically Bush – “fuck YOU”.
So much for looking into their soul, eh?
Two possible flashpoints still remaining:
1) Russian use of ballistic missiles into Georgia; this has got to violate several treaties on its own; and
2) The possibility of U.S. involvement if a stray Russian missile takes out a U.S. plane ferrying Georgia military personnel home.
Good times.
DougJ
Never fear — Fred Hiatt will have this all sorted out in tomorrow’s paper.
slippytoad
Other than the fact that RedState is populated by a bunch of armchair generals with such a feeble grasp on reality and the facts that they’re laughably wrong about everything they touch, what’s to discuss?
The Thinking Man's Mel Torme
Since Condi’s the old Soviet hand, are they going to drag her back from wherever she’s been exiled? I guess she can put the cherry on this sh!t sundae.
Lavocat
Forgot to add …
Bottom-line: The Russians have been waiting a very, very long time for the Georgians to get this stupid.
Seriously, WTF did the Georgians expect the Russians to do?
The swiftness of the Russian response illustrates that they were merely executing operational procedures and military policies put in place as long ago as 1990.
Also, Putin has pretty much assured that Georgia will NOT be invited into NATO in the foreseeable future.
A very interesting footnote to all of this is the status of Crimea in Ukraine. The Russian blockade around Georgia has been effectuated by the Russian fleet, out of Crimean ports in Ukraine. So, in effect, Russia has ham-handedly dragged Ukraine into this mess as well. Russia is also unsubtley informing Ukraine that Crimea might just break away to Russian in the future as well. Yet another reminder to a former colony as to who’s boss in these parts.
empty
Actually, I think Condi was in Georgia at the time of that wonderful set of side by side military exercises in July. I wonder what her advice was to Mikey.
tomjones
At least actions like this on Russia’s part will clarify the moral calculus; if both nations shared some blame for the initiation of hostilities, surely at this point only Russia can be blamed for prolonging them.
Shell Goddamnit
Radley Balko, so good on police professionalism etc, still rails agains Fox refusing to discuss “Russia’s attempt to goad the West into a global war”. Huh?
Patrick
August, Bush, obliviousness, repeat…
demkat620
The oil and food are simply being returned to their rightful owners, The Russians. so you break a few eggs in the process, so what?
calipygian
Shambles is too strong a word. The SS-25 force is solid – they test launch them and they pretty much hit the target. The SS-27s are even better. The liquid fueled SS-19s and SS-18s are older and a little more iffy – but the Russians have a bunch of never been fueled SS-19s they bought from the Ukrainians sitting around in storage, waiting to be used.
While the boats don’t patrol like us, they just successfully launched an SS-N-18 last week and are overhauling the SS-N-23 force.
Russian bombers have been flying patrols literally every single day since last August, which is more than we do frankly. And I wouldn’t discount the prop driven Bear – all they have to do is get within 1600nm of a target to launch up to 16 AS-15s, roughly equivilent to a Tomahawk per aircraft at their target.
Are their nuclear forces inferior to ours in numbers and maybe quality? Probably.
Are they in a shambles like you say?
Not by a long shot anymore.
4tehlulz
oh shi-
Frank Wilhoit
What’s immediately clear is that Putin must now either reduce Georgia to a client state or himself become ridiculous.
What’s probably not immediately clear is that once Georgia has been reduced, the same arguments and imperatives apply to reducing each and every one of the former republics — granting that some of them have no real independence as it is.
The Thinking Man's Mel Torme
Beat me to it. I was just about to say, Cheney must have God’s own hard-on right about now.
The Moar You Know
The Magic Jesus Shield will protect us against all 3,500 nuclear warheads. You can prove your faith by standing outside when they’re all launched.
We have 67 B-1Bs, which are barely supersonic (mach 1.25), and three B1-As, which can haul ass. The B1-As are all in museums. The Blackjack is far larger than the B1, with more range, and can hit mach 2.2.
The turboprop Bear ain’t one whit different than a B-52.
I think I can guarantee you that neither you or I know anything about what is really going on with either the U.S. or Russian submarine fleets.
I don’t mean to be a contrarian dick, but don’t make the mistake of underestimating the Russians. True, they don’t dump a shitload of money into weapons R&D – they just steal our ideas and save the expense. They are a very good military – their equipment is, at worst, second to ours. Some of it is better. They are absolutely ruthless, and like the U.S., they have a chip on their shoulders about their Vietnam (Afghanistan) and are foaming at the mouth to go kick some ass. When you’re dealing with someone in this state of mind, the self-preserving thing to do is to stay the fuck out of their way and let them rampage.
Saakashvili is, unfortunately for his dumb ass, going to end his life very soon, tied to a post with a dirt berm in back of him. The Russians will install a leader much more to their liking and hopefully that’s going to be the end of it.
Davis X. Machina
If I were watching this all in Panama, I’d be rolling my eyes about now. Pain-in-the-ass president of small country, disputed sovereignty, superpower neighbor to the north…
¿Como se dice ‘Been there, done that’ en español?
J. Michael Neal
I agree, though I’m not sure it’s going to work out for them. The US already has troops in some of the Central Asian republics, which makes attacking them a slightly different proposition. Azerbaijan has a different friend, namely Iran. The Baltic states already have NATO membership, so they aren’t going to be bullied. Ukraine is signaling that they aren’t intimidated, through their talk about not letting the Russian navy back into port.
That leaves Byelorussia, Transnistria, Armenia, and Kazakhstan, all of whom were pretty docile already.
alan
I can’t figure out how Saakashvili thought launching his blitzkrieg would work out for the good of Georgia in the long term. Even if Georgian forces did manage to create a fait accompli by capturing Tskhinvali before Russia was able to intervene he still would have a mess to deal with.
Did he actually believe that after 15 years of de facto independence the Ossetians would roll over an become good Georgians? Most likely Georgia would have created an occupied territory with the potential to turn into a situation like Israel’s. Could he have expected the Ossetians to flee to Russia? This would explain why the tunnel was not closed.
And what of the bigger prize, Abkhazia? Did he think Russia would not move troops in to prevent a repeat? Did he imagine Georgia could handle two occupied territories or that world opinion would stand for him ethnically cleaning two territories?
Wilfred
You’re quite the manly fellow, aren’t you? A round of Depends for all the posters here!
The Russians were given a blank check to do whatever they wanted by all the people who sniffed about how wrong the Georgians were to do what they did and how they deserve whatever they got. Afghans and Chechyans must have been shaking their heads at that particular stupidity.
This is the real 3am moment for our candidates, no? American ally about to be reabsorbed into puppet state status – this Georgia, an American ally, the only really functional democracy in the region, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Fuck ’em, make room under the bed.
cleek
perilous?
we’ve invaded two countries in the past 7 years.
DougJ
Relax, everyone. The Russians will be greeted as liberators
John Cole
Interesting take from a scholar on the region:
Thoughts?
stogie
It should be noted that the Caucasus is the site of one of the prototypical defeats of the Russian Army by guerrilla forces.
Of course, this is all moot if reports of Georgia seeking a ceasefire are true.
jbarntt
calipygian Says:
Red State can’t even get the most basic facts right – it was Georgia that entered South Ossetia under cover of the Olympics, not the other way around.
I don’t know about Red State, but the idea that Georgia entering S.O. is the act of aggression is stupid. S.O. is a part of Georgia, why shouldn’t they enter it.
Wilfred
There are at least two emerging narratives. The second is the one advanced by King in his article. But this:
is a bit of a stretch, isn’t it? Russia’s predictable overreaction? How many people predicted it? Besides, doesn’t this assertion mean that Saakashvili provoked Russia into attacking his country in order to be rescued by the West? Why not not attack Russia and keep his fucking head?
John, even experts start drinking too early, sometimes. And even experts are often found with their heads firmly ensconced up their asses.
I just read the Guardian, where letters writers are complaining that the paper has adopted the wronged Russia narrative, just like posters who are determined to not get involved.
nightjar
Sounding more and more like a neocon circle- jerk.
I think it’s just as likely he gambled that Russia and it’s new president would have the gumption to go all Soviet over a tiny province. I think he’s smart enough to know the west wouldn’t go to war with Russia over a small country like his. But then again not smart enough to see the Russian re-emergence toward it’s old appetites for conquest and new territory.
jbarntt
Thoughts?
Hi John,
My thoughts are that Georgia is a strategic ally and that NATO should bolster her and not just with words. If we don’t stand by Georgia why should the Ukrainine, Baltic republics, Poland, Czech republic, etc. have any confidence in us ?
If we are weak those countries will pull away from us and towards Russia, for their own self preservation. We should not allow this to happen.
nightjar
correction
Martin
From the sounds of it, Russia was at the ready and there’s been some information that Russia shut down some of Georgia’s communication the day before they went in.
I get the sense that it was just a matter of time before Russia decided to camp out in Ossetia, whether Georgia had troops there or not. That Ossetia is formally a part of Georgia makes it hard to side with Russia on this one.
Of course, Red State thinks this is the perfect opportunity to defeat the Russians once and for all, so let loose with the nukes. I’m not saying we wouldn’t get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than fifty to a hundred million killed, tops.
empty
Regardless of who started what when I think we will see a rapid coalescing of establishment consensus (including both candidates) against Russia. Russia’s move into Georgia puts it in control of the energy in the Caspian and the US establishment, regardless of party affiliation, will want to try and at least get back to the status quo ante. It will be bipartisanship (or is it post-partisanship?) all the way.
Eric
I think I missing something here.
I think it’s improbable that Saakashvili would risk his country – and more importantly to him, his political career and possibly his life – to engage in “calculated self-sacrifice”. Is he a lunatic? Has he suffered a psychotic breakdown?
I think it’s improbable that Russia just happened to have a few tank regiments standing by, armed and fueled and ready to move out, just a few minutes drive from the Georgian border. They just happened to have naval assets in place to enforce a blockade. They just happened to have their entire freaking air force ready to fly at Georgian targets. They KNEW exactly what was going to happen and when it was going to happen…why didn’t we? And more importantly, why didn’t the Georgians? Is their intelligence service even worse than ours?
I think it’s absolutely insane that Russia and Georgia are fighting over a plot of land that’s worth less than a toxic waste dump. I hate to insult any South Ossetians that might be reading, but seriously – the place is a shithole. You couldn’t give it away, but know two nations are fighting bloody battles over it? Weird.
There are a lot of unanswered questions here, I can’t make any sense of it.
nightjar
Yea it’s strategic all right. Located in the perfect spot to start WW3 if we follow your neocon thinking about “not just with words” whatever the fuck that means.
Martin
I assume the ‘predictions’ came from within those who actually know something about politics in the region – that is, nobody here or on TV. OTOH, how often does Russia ever under-react?
And he didn’t attack Russia. He occupied his own country. The province might not want to be part of Georgia but it is. If President Obama sends troops into Texas, would you side with Mexico if they launched ballistic missiles at Denver and sent troops into Oklahoma?
Ed Marshall
You couldn’t give it away, but know two nations are fighting bloody battles over it? Weird.
See Kosovo.
gopher2b
Guys,
I remember a certain somebody looked into the soul of another certain someone and saw a little, gentle, humankind loving, god fearing leader.
Everything is going to be fine.
Wilfred
Here’s a letter to the editor of the Guardian:
Most of the papers I read seem to be pushing the pro-Russian narrative.
The Other Steve
This is quite worisome. It’s one thing for Russia to go into South Ossetia, but it’s quite another to advance into Georgian territory.
jake
Fixed.
Sure Sparky. Of course that will require more personnel than we have right now. A lot more. So report to the nearest recruiting station before the MPs have to drag your ass from behind mom’s couch.
This shit has to be spoof. It isn’t, maybe a few nukes are the only thing that could help this sorry ass country.
empty
I sincerely disagree with the characterization of Russian actions as an over-reaction. It was an opportunity to do what it has wanted to do for a long time and it was telegraphed way in advance. I would love to know what Rice told Saakashvili a month ago. I have a feeling when the whole story comes out it will illustrate a continuity of incompetence.
The Other Steve
You need a map. South Ossetia controls one of the access points into Georgia from Russia across the Caucus mountains. The Roki Tunnel it’s called, about 20 km north of Tskhinvali where they were fighting.
There are two other points, one is closed, the other is also in the hands of a seperatist group in Abkhazia.
This is of great strategic importance to Georgia.
Eric
Point taken, but Kosovo at least has a few million people. South Ossetia looks like some abandoned county in North Dakota.
But I’ve never been to Georgia, maybe it has some strategic significance I’m not picking up on while looking at Google Maps…
nightjar
True. The majority of S Ossetia’s 70,000 citizens are ethnic non-Georgians and side with Russia , not so with the rest of the country.
Eric
Aha, and there’s my answer..thanks Other Steve
Wilfred
Yesterday the argument was that since Georgia started it (problematic) it deserved Russian retaliation and occupation of S. Ossetia. Thus US non-intervention on behalf of an ally was justifiable.
The Georgians just lost their country, and based on past performances in Af and Chechnya the Russians won’t be too particular about what they blow up. Moronic claims that the Geoergians deserve that, too, are just that.
This is a genuine 3 am moment. I look forward to hearing what McCain and Obama have to say about what we should do.
Richard Bottoms
Correct if I’m wrong but didn’t we used to stand up to these bastards? Or is George Bush afraid of talking shit to countries that aren’t a walkover.
The Other Steve
The WaPo is reporting that Russia has told the US that Saakashvili must go.
Fuck. What’d Bush get us into now?
nightjar
No one thinks the Georgians deserve to lose their country, but they attacked Russian peacekeeper/troops which is an act of war/ They should have thought thru that Russia would take that as an excuse to conquer the entire country. Which could easily be construed as their right under historic rules of war.
Wilfred
Yeah, but:
Narcissus
Of course Bush gave the green-light. Well, somebody in his administration did. He was too busy trying not to pop a tent in his khakis at the beach volleyball games.
jbarntt
Hi nightjar:
You said
Yea it’s strategic all right. Located in the perfect spot to start WW3 if we follow your neocon thinking about “not just with words” whatever the fuck that means.
We are agreed that Georgia is a strategic ally, good.
As to being a neo-conservative, no I am not. I am a conservative, but not of that sort.
Given that you recognize the importance of Georgia to us, and hopefully the other republics around Russia, what would you do ? Simply utter lofty sounding words, go to the UN ?
Not for me. I don’t care to see us sit around and watch Russia regain hegemony over the former Soviet satellites. We won the Cold War, are we to surrender now to a weakend Russia ?
We should support Georgia, militarily if necessary, and through NATO if possible, but support her we should. If we fail this test Russia will be emboldened and other eastern European countries will see our weakness and revert to their subservience to Russia to save themselves.
Gene
OK, shorter versions of the arguments:
Left: This is Risk, and a screwed opponent confined to one of the impossible to hold areas tried to overplay their hand (i.e.: desperate gambit).
Right: This is Sid Meier’s Civilization and an ally has attempted to start an all – Civ war to work on production, science, and culture while everyone else slugs it out. We are an ally, so therefore we must commit our forces.
Either scenario = same result for Georgia. The difference is the result for everyone else.
handy
What kind of bizarro world do some of you people live in? You honestly think a direct military confrotation with Russia is going to turn out well…for anybody?
And “3 AM moment?” Hmmm, I smell a little Hillary trolling. Glad to see you still support your girl, despite even more evidence coming out today that her campaign handlers, if not her, were the scum of the earth through it all.
nightjar
Nice try spoof/troll. It is only strategic in the sense that calling it strategic by the war party and their nutjob members increases the likelyhood of dragging the US into a existential war, which the war party (conservative republican/neocon) nutjobs (like jbarntt)crave even more than money and power and gay sex.
Martin
..which, technically, were in Georgia. I suspect Georgia did not invite them.
Wilfred
WTF? If it was Hillary she’d nuke Russia. Oops, that is if it was Israel getting occupied. Nah, I just want to hear what our presidential candidates have to say – don’t you?
Big E
I’m hearing the old ‘domino’ theory here, didn’t exactly work out that way in S.E. Asia… why not launch an all out nuclear strike on Russia and get it over with, then, after the Olympics we’ll burn a billion or so Chinese with whatever nukes we have left, of course that assumes anyone at all is left….. besides, only the U.S. is entitled to attack countries whenever it wants to… Russia is just having some ‘fun’ pushing small countries around like America does..and they need to upgrade their old munitions, so, why not use them and make some new ones….
jbarntt
nightjar said:
No one thinks the Georgians deserve to lose their country, but they attacked Russian peacekeeper/troops which is an act of war/ They should have thought thru that Russia would take that as an excuse to conquer the entire country. Which could easily be construed as their right under historic rules of war.
Hello, the Georgians acted within their own country, to put down a rebellion loyal to a foreign power, Russia. Russia then invaded Georgia.
Russia fomented this rebellion for her own ends and then attacked Georgia. Russia created the conflict and then used it as an excuse to attack a smaller neighbor, which she has long since wished to control.
Our own interests are to limit Russian influence in the area, and if we allow her to get away with this our interests will be harmed.
As an American I believe we need to help Georgia, as it is in our strategic interest that these former Soviet republics gravitate to the west.
nightjar
Cernig over at Newshoggers has a good post on the technicalities of the peacekeeper stuff.
nightjar
I know in the world of simpleton wingnuttia every situation is couched in canned GOP approve rhetoric. But out here in the real world things are a little more complicated. Go read the previous link I gave at Newshoggers to expand your mind beyond the usual walnut size.
jbarntt
Hi nightjar, you said:
Nice try spoof/troll. It is only strategic in the sense that calling it strategic by the war party and their nutjob members increases the likelyhood of dragging the US into a existential war, which the war party (conservative republican/neocon) nutjobs (like jbarntt)crave even more than money and power and gay sex.
I’m conservative, not sure about the rest of your post, esp. re: gay sex. What the heck does that have to do with the situation in Georgia ? As to me craving more money and power, well I wouldn’t mind getting a raise from my employer. Power ? I’m fine with what I’ve got.
If you’re interested in gay sex, maybe a thread devoted to that topic would be more up your alley, this one is about a war between Georgia and Russia.
John Cole
Well, whoever predicted Hiatt would have it all sorted out by tomorrow nailed it. Bob Kagan in the WaPo:
I saw this movie once before. Glad to get a repeat, just in time to be called appeasers and dust off the Neville Chamberlain lines right before the election.
John Cole
And just WTF is it with these people and Hitler. Everything is like god damned Hitler to them.
nightjar
LOL. Yes it is about Georgia/Russia, but when you showed up it also became about the republican mentality in general. Hence my little smart ass remark. You shouldn’t be personally offended unless you want to be.
Joe
Sorry – I didn’t mean to seem to anti-Russia. I think any discussion of strategic bombers is sort of moot – they’re not necessarily the most reliable weapons in such a situation. As far as the subs go, I really wouldn’t try to compare the Delta III-IV to the Ohios – even the US attack boats have a hard time tracking them (the Ohio class) while it’s somewhat simpler to track the Russian boats. Furthermore, we are allied with the Brits and the French missile boats too (as long as we’re talking about doomsday scenarios.)
As far as other commentators go – while hardware wise, the Bears may not be that much different from the B-52s, the software package on board is, so I’d say their performance is debatable (the b-52 is at least 120 knots/hour faster than the Bear). Additionally, 1600Km from a target gives our AEGIS and other stand off forces some time to intercept them. I’m not saying it’s a certainty, but they’d have to launch very far out to avoid our F/A-18 Super Hornets, AEGIS weapons, and other defenses. To the commentator who mentioned the Ukrainian rockets – as you say, they haven’t been tested, so who knows if they won’t go boom in the silos whilst being fueled. There’s no guarantee that they’ve been maintained in fighting condition. I’m not trying to underestimate Putin’s arsenal, but at the same time I don’t want to give him too much credit where it’s not due.
Big E
Getting out my copy of:
Dr. Strangelove
Radon Chong
Yeah, I mean we’d probably only lose one or two cities. That would be a lot if it was terrorists, but against Russia it’d be total win!
nightjar
I guess the great Burkha scare is history. Now we must fear the “Ushanka”‘‘menace.
Big E
This could be the last chance for G.W. Bush office to bring about the Christian apocalypse…
Davis X. Machina
And just WTF is it with these people and Hitler. Everything is like god damned Hitler to them.
Here’s my theory:
The PNAC gallery came into office coat-dragging for a superpower confrontation (with China), they leave office coat-dragging for a superpower confrontation.
Their hearts never were in the GWOT, they were never really that juiced by non-state-actors.
I don’t know whether the GWOT wasn’t heroic enough, not profitable enough, or not nostalgic enough. Maybe it was having to lie down with with the Rapture & Red Heifer crowd, but I’ve always got the impression that they were vaguely pissed that they got dealt some terrorists in a cave, instead of a respectable enemy, and were making do.
You go off to the Final Conflict with the Manichaean Ultimate Enemy you got, not the Manichaean Ultimate Enemy you want.
Big E
This could be the last chance for G.W. Bush to bring about the Christian apocalypse…
jbarntt
Hi again nightjar:
I know in the world of simpleton wingnuttia every situation is couched in canned GOP approve rhetoric. But out here in the real world things are a little more complicated. Go read the previous link I gave at Newshoggers to expand your mind beyond the usual walnut size.
You will have to bear with me, as I am a simpleton. It does surprise me a bit that a fine liberal like you is so nasty to someone who is mentally deficient. I had been told that liberals were kind to people like me, even willing to take money from those who earned it and give it to the likes of me.
I’m sorry that I didn’t go to Newshoggers and expand my mind. You will forgive a simpleton for never having heard of that news organization. I’m sure it is fine organization.
Many years ago I was a liberal and did expand my mind, you know, drugs, hippie chicks, welfare and a few STDs. It was a blast, man !
But the result was as to be expected, my mind collapsed and I am now the simpleton you describe. In other words I followed the liberal prescription.
FYI – The best Grateful Dead album was their first, I really like the first song “The Golden Road (to unlimited devotion)”. It’s all about Barack !
Peace
Radon Chong
Well, Putin could be Stalin, I suppose, except for the fact that Stalin was our ally and, interestingly, a Georgian. So that wouldn’t work. Maybe he could be the Antichrist!
nightjar
Now you know that’s a myth. It always brings out the asshole in me when conservatives, or anybody, blithely speaks of war with countries having lots of Nuclear Weapons.
Big E
yeah baby, you got it… I want to hang out with the vast Republican pedophile corps & wide stance stall lurkers… I want to party with you cowboy.
Darkness
“Georgian officials said that the West’s credibility is on the line … ”
Lebanon says: Join the club.
I don’t get the sense Russia was itching for this war, unless their army needed a larger black market to operate in, or something. This is in their sphere. The U.S. getting involved in Russia’s sphere is far different than the U.S. getting involved in our own sphere, read Cuba. It may not seem even handed, but it’s an old tradition. If Mexico tried to take back Texas and we slapped them down hard to make a point, would we want Putin weighing in?
Getting more parties involved does not lead to a better outcome here. I just can’t see it. Unless you are a true evangelical and really hate life on earth. Then it has tonnes of upside.
jbarntt
Hi Big E, you said:
I’m hearing the old ‘domino’ theory here, didn’t exactly work out that way in S.E. Asia… why not launch an all out nuclear strike on Russia and get it over with, then, after the Olympics we’ll burn a billion or so Chinese with whatever nukes we have left, of course that assumes anyone at all is left….. besides, only the U.S. is entitled to attack countries whenever it wants to… Russia is just having some ‘fun’ pushing small countries around like America does..and they need to upgrade their old munitions, so, why not use them and make some new ones….
I really don’t give a damn about old cold war stuff, that seems to be something liberals can’t get over. Understandable I suppose since they favored the losing side.
You seem to wear a big moral hat for the USA, enjoy it. The role of the US government is to protect and better the interests of the USA, that’s why we fought an eight year war in the late 18th century.
I do not want or expect the federal government to be the guardian of morality, I expect it to further the wealth, power, and well being of our country, against all others.
Kevin
It’s a pre-emptive strike. They’re trying to point the finger somewhere else to avoid having themselves compared to Hitler-enablers on other subjects.
hjmler
it’s none of our business
L. Ron Obama
Evidently it’s been “3 am” for several days now. Is it Groundhog Day already?
Person of Choler
Too bad that Russia wasn’t around to help the locals when America invaded Georgia in 1864.
cain
If oil is involved it’s our business.
cain
Big E
absolutely,.. everyone knows that liberals hate America and that they’re unpatriotic, hell I’ll bet you can’t show me 1 liberal with a flag lapel pin, …wait,.. Obama wears one, but we all know that he wears it to fool us so he can further his secret muslim agenda….
7+ years of Bush and company, they sure seem to be interested in exactly that… and I won’t even get into their affiliations with the fraud evangelical types.
The role of this current U.S. government is to raid the treasury for their business friends and ignore and violate many of the constitutional guarantees that were gained in that war in the late 18th century.
Just remember,.. if the President says it, or does it, it can’t be a crime… No Republican has ever done anything wrong, and even if they did, they did it for the right reasons.
Calouste
So can anyone point out the relevant differences between the current conflict and say the US invasion of Grenada?
Wikipedia
Or the US invasion of Panama?
Or one of the other more than 100 times the US have interfered in Latin America?
Martin
Are you sure you don’t want to talk about gay sex? Because it really seems like you want to talk about gay sex…
Nikolay
So far, the thing you’re talking about is a claim by one side of the conflict, not a fact. The official Russian position remains that it wants to control South Ossetia &doesn’t want to enter Georgia proper. If this is indeed true, Russia has just gone completely crazy. If it is not true and is a Georgian disinformation, it’s another proof that Georgian leadership is indeed sick in the head.
Partisan
As of this afternoon, Tskhinvali is still taking artillary and Grad rocket fire from Georgian positions around and in Gori.
So it appears that like the incident that started the whole mess, the Georgans have claimed a ceasefire, with out actually stopping shooting.
Last time I checked, Epic Fail Losers in War did not get a return to the status quo, and the pre-existing start line, no matter how much wishing for a pony they engaged in.
It is to be expected that the Russians will continue offesive operations to:
– push Georgian Military, Police and Paramilitary units out of South Ossetia, in particular, the positions they controlled prior to the outbreak of the conflict. In general, these positions were used to launch the attacks, and it is good military doctrine to negate these positions.
– continue offensive operations against Georgian positions in Georgia, that are attacking areas of South Osettia. That means that Gori is a valid target as long as Georgian Military positions and facilities in and around Gori are being used to shell Tskhinvali. The Russian will probably insist on some form of DMZ along the Georgian and South Ossetia border as conditions for both a cease fire ad a peace. The Georgians as of yet, do not appear to be willing to concede this option.
– continue attacking Georgian military and infrastructure in Georgia until such time as there is a surrender or ceasefire. The indescriminate Georgian levelling of Tskhinvali with massed artillary fire as an opening move, gave the Russians a very wide “tit for tat” list of targets that so far, they appear to have been very restrained about. Russia will want to “punish” the Georgian Military and set them back a decade in Military expenditures.
Michael Gass
In response to jbarntt:
You seem to wear a big moral hat for the USA, enjoy it.
Hmmm… wasn’t the Rethugs who went on the rampage over Shiavo?
I do not want or expect the federal government to be the guardian of morality, I expect it to further the wealth, power, and well being of our country, against all others.
Ah, so, gay-marriage is fine then! No federal ban.
Amazingly, it’s the Rethugs who push for bans on the sale of sex toys (guess their wives like them better than the real thing), and bans on gay marriage (cause two guys marrying will kill their own heterosexual marriage thats been on the rocks for years), and contraception for women (because they want their wives barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen), and abstinence (cause that’s worked out so well)…
In fact, it’s been the Rethug’s who have tried get into people bedrooms and force their morality on society for years… not the Democrats.
Michael Gass
In response to jbarntt:
Hmmm… wasn’t the Rethugs who went on the rampage over Shiavo?
Ah, so, gay-marriage is fine then! No federal ban.
Amazingly, it’s the Rethugs who push for bans on the sale of sex toys (guess their wives like them better than the real thing), and bans on gay marriage (cause two guys marrying will kill their own heterosexual marriage thats been on the rocks for years), and contraception for women (because they want their wives barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen), and abstinence (cause that’s worked out so well)…
In fact, it’s been the Rethug’s who have tried get into people bedrooms and force their morality on society for years… not the Democrats.
Badtux
Saakashvili and the “government” of South Ossetia both made a bet that if they got into it, they’d be bailed out by their major power backer. So South Ossetia started shelling Georgian villages near their capital, and Georgia responded by, well, not by lobbing shells back, but by launching a major assault.
South Ossetia guessed right. Their major power backer was ready and willing. Saakashvili… err… I’m sure that the Kremlin is shocked, shocked I say, by the sternly worded letter from the U.S. State Department that the U.S. Ambassador just laid on the portal. Why, a few more sternly worded letters of that sort, and, and, and… they might even be able to start a fire in one of the Kremlin’s fireplaces and roast some marshmallows! Yeah!
Oh, for some other things: The “entire” Russian Air Force is not in the region, but this is Russia’s southern frontier so of course they do have significant assets in the area whether or not they were planning to use them against Georgia. I saw a map somewhere of Russian deployments several months ago, they had roughly 200 combat aircraft and 200,000 soldiers within a five hour drive of South Ossetia, including one of their “crack” units with fresh T-90 tanks fresh from duty in Chechnya and eager for some R&R on the Black Sea. Looks like they’re getting a little less R&R than they planned :-). As for the Black Sea Fleet, it of course is normally docked in the Crimea, a mere 5 hour sailing distance from the Georgian coast. So it is not unusual that Russia had a large number of forces in the area, those forces have been there for months at the very least, you can look at Google Earth (several month old satellite photos) and see them. Georgia had to know that there was almost 10 times as many Russian troops in the region as there were in their entire army, as well as 10 times as many aircraft as there were in their entire air force. What were they thinking? That the U.S. would respond with anything other than a strongly worded letter when the Russians responded? If so, Saakashvili was seriously deluded.
– Badtux the Snarky Penguin
dslak
South Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as Georgia is itself a part of Russia. Trying to justify the Georgian side on the basis of essentialist notions of national borders is a non-starter.
Also, Kosovo was inside Serbia, yet I never saw anyone who wasn’t a hack claim that made it okay for the Serbs to bomb their own civilians.
dslak
Exactly. This is why I don’t get the concern about Russia acting “disproportionately.” Georgia is still continuing to attack, and Russia is taking out their infrastructure and advancing on them. It would be irrational for them to do otherwise.
dslak
You might say that the Georgian response was, what’s the word . . . disproportionate.
vivelame
a few points.
the only reports of russian tanks near Gori come the from georgian government, who has a very high stake in the game, and should probably not be trusted. (btw, did you see the miracle wounded guy ? they never learn anything..). No trace of russian tanks near Gori in any other news source i can find, which is intriguing.
Second: the russians didn’t have a tank column a few minutes away. Georgian shelling started during the night (around midnight local time), Russia went to the UN in the morning to ask for an immediate cease-fire, was sent packing, said “fuck that”, and sent in the tanks. There are several ossetian refugees interviewed blaming the russians, saying “you took your sweet time!”.
(and, no, i’m not a russian apologist, i have no love lost for Putin, but i seriously doubt he’ll ge even to outright annexion S.O. and Abkhasia. recognizing their independance, on the other hand, and offering them a defense treaty..)
TenguPhule
Seriously, all of these hard ons for war need a steel toe boot to the crotch. They can only understand pain after experiencing it personally for themselves.
TenguPhule
This from Wilfred, the person who has a hardon for destroying Israel.
The Gods are Laughing.
dslak
Vivelame, the government of Georgia making a claim, only to have it parroted by the Western media, has been SOP during this whole thing. I was surprised to see CNN pointing out yesterday that Georgia had, in fact, not withdrawn its forces from South Ossetia, as it had claimed.
Nobody should be taking the claims of either side in this conflict at face value, yet the claims made by Georgia are being treated as Gospel by a lot of influential people.
TenguPhule
We’ve seen this movie before.
It ends badly.
TenguPhule
Dropping artillery fire on them wasn’t exactly saying hello now, was it?
dslak
Being a nominal democracy means never having to say you’re sorry for escalating a conflict!
TenguPhule
Why should one American soldier die for Georgia?
Picking a fight with Russia does nothing for America.
A *real* conservative would see that. Throw planes against Russian forces there and Russia will be calling in missile strikes in Iraq and Afghanistan so fast it will make your head spin. The gloves ever come off and the oil will hit levels not seen in most people’s worst nightmares.
And that’s not even touching the nuke issue either.
TenguPhule
This is from the same tool who said he didn’t pay attention to the details of the Cold War.
dslak
Now there’s this story from the AP:
Until some reliable information from a third source is available, there’s no point in accepting the claims from the government of Georgia and its buddies in Washington that the Russians are being excessive.
jake
Awww. Your concern is so great you want to know what people who have no control over the situation would do if they were in the position to do anything about it.
Hypotheticals! Get yer hypotheticals here!
dslak
I thought the John Edwards situation was more of a 3 a.m. moment.
grandpajohn
Hmmm and the best way to protect and better our interests is to take actions that could precipitate a nuclear war?? Conservative logic sure is strange
Wilfred
What are you, 12? That was deliberate sarcasm, mimicking the constant chorus of the Israel Firsters. You really are a pathetic little wanker.
Wilfred
Isn’t that what running for President is all about? Neither candidate has any control over the economy, yet we hear every day what they’ll do, etc.
Personally, I’d like to hear what both have to say. They certainly have plenty to say about Iraq and Iran, where neither has any control over those situations.
maxbaer (not the original)
If this is Bush’s plan, then I think it’s one we should all get behind:
Seems like a good course of inaction.
peach flavored shampoo
Red Dawn, bitches.
Somebody check on Michael D.
jake
Give it a rest, you fraud. Two days ago you were beating your breast over the fate of the Georgians and calling us nasty doody heads for NOT CARING AND NOT WANTING TO SUPPORT THE GEORGIANS, OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN. Now you want to play “Let’s pretend it’s 3 a.m.”
Pffffftt!
Let us talk to funny Wilfred or scram.
Misfitina
Wanted to share this as well- Salon dug up a story from June about McCain’s advisor, who is funded by Georgia, and his tone toward Putin.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/06/09/mccain/
Ash Can
Considering who’s running the US government in general and its foreign relations in particular, I’d say inaction on the US’s part is the best we can all hope for at this point. An administration with a seven-plus-year track record of fucking up virtually everything it touches isn’t going to suddenly step up to its old rival empire, pull a foreign-policy rabbit out of its hat, and magically persuade said rival to back down, especially in a case of fighting, ultimately, over access to oil. Our only hope in that case would be that the Russians would be laughing so hard at us that they’d forget to shell Tbilisi. The US has abdicated its role of world leadership under Dubya, and the vaccuum in this instance is being filled by the EU, which has a delegation working on brokering an agreement between the Georgian and Russian leaders even as I type. As long as the current idiots remain in power in the US, we can all forget about our government assuming a role of leadership in a situation such as this — and be thankful for it not attempting to do so.
Wilfred
Fortunately, Obama has toughened his stance a bit – if he listened to PMS pussies like you the Republicans would shove this up his ass right up to election day.
You have to have some balls in this world, even when it’s the big bad Russians – whose last military claims to fame include the wholesale slaughter of women and children in Afghanistan and Chechnya.
This is why the Democrats lose. A lot of people actually do give a shit, even when scumbags like you don’t.
You heard it here first.
Crusty Dem
Goddamn a lot of people here have no sense of proportion or autonomy. If the Western hemisphere version of Georgia were doing these things to the US (invading and ethnically cleansing those we consider “our citizens”) we would’ve turned their entire military into a paste. We certainly wouldn’t stop at the border of the “disputed” territory. We would roll motherfucking tanks right up to the presidential residence and knock with a MOAB. CNN and Faux would be running bombing footage 24/7 set to patriotic music and Bush would be giving a speech from the oval office where they’d have to lift his desk an extra 3 inches to make room for his erection. And if the Russian version of a neocon called our actions instigating war we’d tell them to go fuck themselves.
The idea of threatening war with Russia over Georgia is beyond insane. They will stop at South Ossetia, because they have a lot more patience and reason then we do, and that’s something to be grateful for. All you neocon bitches, trolls, and spoofs are morons.
dbrown
No matter what any one says, Georgia is the evil party – when Georgia first broke away from the USSR, it took all areas it wanted without asking any of the people in those regions (the non-Georgian) if they agreed. Georgia just simply kept all those areas that were incorporated by the USSR, and since this made for better borders, dragged these peoples into there country. From day one these ethic groups/regions protested and fought not to be part of Georgia. How does that make Georgia right?
Of course, both sides (Georgia/ S. Ossetia and Abkhazia) have bitterly fought and in the case of Abkhazia, practiced ethic cleansing. All sides are thugs when it comes to the other ethic groups in their own regions – period.
Now, we in the US stand around and apply our morals on people and cultures we know near zero about. But wait, Georgia is our ally … really, because bushwhack wanted influence in that area of the world and made treaties with them and they sent troops to Iraq (a sovereign country we attacked without reason) so some how, that makes us responsible for protecting them? Like hell – not one treaty that I have never heard about that we signed with Georgia requires that we militarily protect it. It is not part of Nato and only countries in Nato can require us to protect them – so Georgia is NOT a military ally and we are not require nor should we ever protect courtiers just because we sign treaties of mutual interest.
Anyone who claims that the US is somehow undermined in its military treaties is full of shit; we have ZERO military requirement to support Georgia; and if any of you claiming this undermines Nato had a brain, you would know that even Nato does NOT require members to support any member country that starts a war on its own.
Finally, this area is an unimportant region of the world for the US. Most of our oil comes from SA, Mexico, Canada, and most of the rest Nigeria or from Middle East – not central Asia.
Are the Russian’s hands clean? Hell no and they really started the latest fight byforcing the issue in many ways like moving in peace keeping troops and handing out passports but really, who cares. Georgia did fire the first shots and kill Russian soldiers, so they are guilty too.
Are our hands clean? No, we killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians so stop crying about innocent deaths anywhere or that the Russians are some how more evil for killing orders of magnitude fewer innocent people–grow up. As I posted in a similar thread, MILLIONS have died in the Congo and many thousands die every week and no one cares about that because they are black, third world and not our fake allies.
The Moar You Know
He hates Jews. It’s one of those things I don’t understand but will accept.
Wilfred’s going to need to change his diapers and take some blood pressure medication soon if you don’t start nodding in agreement with his insane neocon interventionalist bullshit, which hilariously enough seems to be taken straight from AIPAC’s battle plan for bringing “democracy” to the Middle East.
You wanna fight the eevul Russians, Wilfred? Hell, I’ll kick in for a few boxes of 5.56 ammo (or whatever your choice in battle rifle ammo is) and contribute part of the plane ticket – but that’s as far as I’m willing to support such a stupid idea. You have the right to risk your own life. You don’t have the right to risk mine, not to mention those of the rest of your fellow Americans.
Big E
re: Wilfred
what is it with your fascination for getting it up the ass?… it’s OK, you can come out of the closet…I mean really….no one cares even if your into ‘Isreali fisting’….
re:
ever heard of Iraq?
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
He’s had a chip on his shoulder since Putin never responded to his “Pogrom ’08” letter.
Wilfred
I don’t hate Jews. I just don’t give a fuck about them. Tedious, self-important American Jews can’t understand the distinction. Show me, please, where I insisted on a direct military confrontation with Russia. Of course you can’t – because you’re just a little prancing Nancy coward boy who doesn’t like it when someone comes to your house and tells you that you are ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.
Of course, if the Arabs were on the verge of taking Israel, then every American would be expected to die, correct? This is what is freaking people out here – there is something uncomfortable about what’s going on that needs to be suppressed, erased – consensus must be established and defended. Any critique must be shouted down.
Pretty fucking pathetic for grown men.
dbrown
Wilfred, last time I check the demo-rats controlled congress, majority of State Governorships, and even most State houses – check your facts before saying things like that.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
We should support Georgia, militarily if necessary, and through NATO if possible, but support her we should.
Wait, wait, wait – here’s some questions for you that conservatives never seem to answer.
– To what end?
– At what expense?
– When do you know you’ve won?
– And at what point can the US go home.
Cf Iraq, Afghanistan and quagmires.
Bob In Pacifica
The reporting in the American press has been dreadful. The story in the S.F. Chronicle said how surprising that Russia attacked because they hadn’t been bunching their forces at the border prior to the war. Of course they weren’t. They didn’t invade first! Georgia did.
On the other hand, reports on BBC this morning are saying that the Russians, besides knocking out radar stations and airfields and military bases, aren’t advancing beyond the breakaway provinces’ borders (with the exception of hijinks on the high seas).
Keep track of the claims and after the smoke clears then see who was lying.
From what I can discern, the Russians are taking out the Georgian military infrastructure and any Georgian units still inside Ossetia. It also sounds like they’re taking out any Georgian units in Abkhazia. They seem to be building a case for war crimes against Georgia, but if this is anything like the former Yugoslavia, pro-Western crimes and criminals will be ignored by international courts.
Too bad for Exxon and BP. The southern “cordon sanitaire” has been broken.
dbrown
PS – Wilfred, good you are on line -this thread is more fun now.
This one lost me and I have no idea what you mean. If Israel was in danger of being over run, your conclusion about every American would die makes no sense. What does this have to do with this thread about fighting Russians for Georgia by the US? That we are affraid of a full war with Russia?
No one has shot down anyone just because they disagree and even if someone is wrong, thats a issue we all have from time to time but it is not a personal attack unless we make it.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
“The smoke coming out of Auschwitz? Well, I’m sure those Jews are doing something industrious in there. Not that I care what’s going on.”
Um… you’re the one stomping for us standing up for our erstwhile ‘ally’. What do you expect us to do to stop the Russians? A really strongly worded letter? Tell them if they don’t stop, we’ll stop teaching our kids how to pronounce ‘Dmitry Medvedev’?
Over-compensating for something tell #1.
Yeah, like how we rushed in the 82nd Airborne when Israel was getting hosed during Yom Kippur- er-
Shorter: Everybody’s telling me I’m wrong, therefore I must be right!
Overcompensating for something tell #2.
Big E
no, Americans are only expected to die in the mid-east for OIL..
and yes we ‘know’, that the Jews run the world with their secret plans and directly control G.W. Bush and all god fearing christians… did you get all the dust off that copy of Mein Kampf?
dbrown
No; for bringing democracy to Iraq; that is why Americans die. Just ask bushwhack who saw into putins eyes and knew that putin had a good soul …
I think that should be voted the dumbest statement ever made by any American President, ever.
Bob In Pacifica
John, in a couple of days come back to this topic. Let’s see if the Russian tanks are actually in Tblisi. Or even Gori.
I think that the Ruskies did two things:
1.) They knocked the Georgians out of South Ossetia and
2.) They laid out the terms for the future. No western military buildup in Georgia. All of Condi’s shiny toys are broken. Russian planes bombed close to the Georgian oil pipeline but didn’t knock it out. That’s a message: “We can but we didn’t… this time.”
Xenos
Does this make Georgia the first nation ti be a Darwin Award winner of the 21st century?
liberal
dbrown wrote,
This is an important point. But let’s apply it to the breakup of Yugoslavia, right from the beginning. IIRC there were e.g. non-Croatians in Croatia, but not only were they not “consulted” on secession, there were (IIRC) laws that discriminated against them.
Similarly in the Baltics.
The fact is that, whether it’s morally justified, secession has long been a casus belli. But many European countries were so busy recognizing new republics in the wake of the breakup of Yugoslavia, they were practically tripping over themselves.
Pelikan
Can we have a holocaust version of Godwin’s Law? Because I’m not exactly sure it’s logical or helpful to drag religion or religious prejudice into this.
That’s not even getting into the fact that judaism and Israel aren’t the same thing, why can’t people see that? If you make them synonymous, then you’ve just trapped yourself into defending every action of a political organization based on religious principles.
That’s dumb.
binzinerator
It’s called projection, John.
binzinerator
You certainly aren’t a conservative. “This one is about a war between Georgia and Russia” Remember that? It’s their war, not ours. A war with Russia has no upsides for us. A real conservative wouldn’t want to get involved.
But a neocon hell yes — and they always fob it off as some such rot about “American interests” while keeping their eye on what it’s really important to them — the oil. Neocon interests always get repackaged and sold as American interests. Funny how that works. There’s even an Israeli angle to this as well, another hallmark of the same old neocon bullshit.
You’re definitely not a conservative. You sound a lot like a fucking moron neocon. You may not be but you are surely spouting the same nonsense.
nightjar:
Trouble is, your parakeet can’t ever vote for more Bushism even if it was dumb enough to want to, and enough of these knuckleheads can and will.
Xenos:
I’d say that the U.S. made a bid to be first when Bush and his stupid criminals began to run things, and had it solidly staked out with their tossing of the Constitution, the GWOT, the invasion of Iraq, the general lawlessness, and the terrorizing and fearmongering of the populace. This candidacy, remember, was further endorsed by 59 million fucking idiots.
And now a huge navy task force is on the way to get up in Iran’s face, and oh yeah, these fucktards want a war with Russia too.
U.S.A Number 1! U.S.A Number 1! U.S.A Number 1!
For a Darwin Award, that is.
binzinerator
No you retard, the Revolutionary War was not fought to protect and better the interests of the USA, and certainly not for interests in places like Georgia. Or Iran. Or Iraq. Or Granada. Or Panama. Or Vietnam.
Is that what you got from the American War of Independence? A Creator-endowed unalienable right to bomb whomever the fuck we want for what ever reason we want?
Sheesh. Are you a low-grade troll or just the typical clueless gooper or a neocon enabler? Or all three?
Xenos
For we hold the truths to be self evident, that any government must be formed for the purpose of furthering the wealth, power, and well being of our country, against all others
No, that is is not it… Anybody here remember how it goes?