Ickes just gave the signal- to the convention and the credentials committee. Apparently fair reflection means that North Korean style elections that give Clinton all the delegates are what democracy is all about in Camp Clinton.
I told you. She is not going to give up, she will not concede, and we will spend all summer with Clinton and McCain attacking Obama while Clinton and her crazed supporters scream “unelectable” and “we wuz robbed!”
I look forward to four years of McCain. Thanks, Clintons.
Good luck walking them back from the brink, Hillary
That video above should be the companion video to Geraldine Ferraro’s outburst the other day.
El Cid
Maybe HRC can at least be President of Appalachia.
Incertus
I heard that for Michigan, but not for Florida. Did I miss something? I suspect that in the next week, we’ll see the flood of superdelegates that will make Michigan’s challenge at the convention superfluous.
zzyzx
The antics of the crowd is going to cause a SD flood.
Incertus
19-8 on Michigan. Clinton didn’t even hold onto the 12 people who were supposed to be solid for her.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s going to the convention in any event since, ya know, that’s where these contests lead. However, I don’t think there will be a floor fight or any credentials committee shenanigans. There won’t be anything to fight for because awarding more delegates to HRC isn’t going to change the outcome.
El Cid
Vote on apportioning MI as Levin suggested but at 1/2 vote per delegate carries 19 – 8. MI seated at 1/2 strength.
Fledermaus
The beatings will continue until intelligence improves.
Scotty
Does anyone else see middle aged, hard working, rural, white women running around with pitchforks outside their house?
NR
It’s not about changing the outcome. It’s about stirring up resentment and destroying Obama’s chances in November.
If Hillary can’t have the presidency, then no Democrat will.
KRK
With the unanimous vote over the Florida delegation taking that out of the picture (her only real chance to make a stink), Clinton’s left with nothing but fumes. There’s no credible argument that the Michigan primary was anything but a mess. The state Democratic party proposed a compromise to resolve the mess, and the RBC accepted it. No court, no credentials committee, no superdelegate, no big-time donor is going to be impressed that all Clinton has left is fighting over a few half-delegate votes in Michigan.
She might keep fighting for a while yet, but there’s no way she can hold out until August.
dreggas
I wish they’d taze all those people shouting “Denver”
KRK
My pitchfork is in the shop, so I’m sitting this one out. But boy, howdy, when I get it back….
Narcissus
Not to venture into misogyny, but the reaction from the Clintonites in the crowd was the definition of shrill.
Ed Willers
What. The. F@#K?
Quick word. For better (or for WORSE), us non-Americans are seriously affected by who gets to be president of your country. So I watch all this democratic primary stuff (and republican). Maybe I’m just dense (I’m an academic, after all), but when you guys say an election won’t count. . . how is it that you wind up several months later with a nationally-televised gong show of lawyer-speak?
If you say an election doesn’t count, and them someone speaks up and says, wait, it should count, why in the hell would you even acknowledge that person?
SIncerely,
Dense? in T.O.
Jorge
My guess is that Hillary is going to suspend her campaign and sit out the summer until the convention – not saying if she is going to challenge or not. That way she doesn’t have to say anything nice about Obama or campaign for him. She will also try and pressure Obama to pick her as her VP.
Seriously, what a self-absorbed person. I guess she’s wishing she’d divorced Bill back in 98 now.
The Grand Panjandrum
Al Giordano:
The Ickes temper tantrum for Clinton is actually good news. The SD’s will move enmasse now to Obama who still has a majority of the pledged delegates with these new numbers. They want a Democratic President and don’t really give a fuck about the Clintons. They have the cover they need.
dreggas
As was pointed out on the teevee. Hillary now stands opposed to the credentials committee, the rules committee, the party heads and the state party of Michigan.
Further she said she would abide by what the state parties did and now proved she’s a liar.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
Bull. It’s a scare tactic, just like the half-dozen other scare tactics they’ve been slinging since they started slipping. And it’s not worked, and it doesn’t work, in the long run, and Bill’s words yesterday just underscore that the know the score.
She’d lose in Denver. She knows this. And all that’s keeping her on is a bunch of people who just saw their iron grip on my Party cut off at the hand.
Ickes et. al. are in shock. They’ll say anything to keep us scared. Anything to keep the fear of Clinton winning in our hearts, so the Supers’ll drift to her, in craven supplication.
But. Not. This. Time.
jake
NOOOOOO! NO IT’S NOT FAAAAAAAIR! THE DNC RaBid Committee is a bunch of traaaaitors!!
/Hillsterics.
Oh this is fun.
Just Some Fuckhead
Fixt.
;)
Georgia Pig
John, you’re too pessimistic. It’s over. Sure, Ickes “reserved the right,” but that’s legalistic nonsense. He and Lanny Davis can find a bar in Denver and commiserate while Barack is accepting the nomination. Her own people (e.g., Donnie Fowler) rolled on this one, I think the silliness of the Clinton supporters at the meeting was embarrassing even to them. After the ridiculous show today and the end of the primaries on Tuesday, the supers will roll out for Obama. Obama’s ending his relationship with the TUCC and getting other ducks in a row. The credentials committee will be an insurmountable roadblock to any more Clinton moves. She and Bill may have a stinky meltdown when it sinks in, but we’ve got two months to clear the air.
debrazza
Obama truly is a master of the process. And to top it off, Hillary’s supporters embarrassed themselves and their candidate. The so-called “massive protest” ended up being a Freeper rally. And then just devolved into a bunch of out of control hecklers.
It should now be abundantly clear that Hillary, not Obama has the responsibility of walking these people back from the ledge. If anything, people watching this who support Hillary will walk back from that ledge themselves because they don’t want to be associated with this garbage.
I’d love to see Hillary Rosen and any of Clintons other surrogates come out and defend that behavior. If Black people were behaving like that, we all know what the outcome would be? Obama would be responsible. So what about Hillary’s people?
TheFountainHead
I really did feel bad for Alice Huffman, because you could tell how upset she was about the Clinton supporters yelling from the back of the room while she was trying to speak. In terms of the perception of the average TV viewer, Clinton’s supporters are going to come off as immature.
PeterJ
What’s up with TalkLeft? With no talk left, did they decide to close the shop?
ThymeZone
Not even a bad convention will elect John McCain.
Cute meme, but ain’t gonna happen.
Just Some Fuckhead
I bet it’s pretty fucking tense right now at the closest Cheesecake Factory.
Adam
Fowler was crying! Incredible. Alice Huffman was classy too. Ward’s speech was great. The crowd was cringeworthy.
The Grand Panjandrum
Nah. They were live-blogging earlier they might have server issues with all the traffic.
KRK
Now that’s funny.
ThymeZone
As the guy says on CNN … this is over, Obama wins.
That’s it. All done.
dreggas
Disgusting
sloegin
Jeebus what a circus.
I liked Hart originally in ’88, Bradley in ’00, and Dean in ’04. Most of the time, elections don’t go the way you think they will.
Clinton supporters have to let it go. They aren’t just screwing around with ’08 now, they’re screwing with ’12 and with her Senate re-election chances.
BethanyAnne
I’m getting a “Document contains no data” error when I try to go there…
…so it looks like it’s fine to me ;-)
/rimshot
Just Some Fuckhead
My wife said she had a couple of older co-workers who said they were voting for McCain if Hillary didn’t get the nomination. My wife is practically dumbstruck they would throw away Roe v. Wade in a snit.
I told her McCain won’t be taking anything away from them that menopause hasn’t already.
She slapped me.
debrazza
I really could not believe it that when Huffman was giving a very emotional speech and you could see tears in her eyes, Hillary Clinton supporters were interrupting her and then booed her. Hillary Clinton needs to call her and apologize.
Maggie
Seems obvious that today’s performance (Ickes + the Hecklers) does make it that much easier for the SD’s to move to Obama.
And depending on how widely the hecklers/protesters get covered, it seems to me that today actually helps move more Clinton supporters over to Obama. Cause if I were a Clinton supporter I’d be looking around me what a nice girl like me was doing in a crowd like this. Here’s hoping anyway.
dr. bloor
Chuck Todd on MSNBC, via Georgia10 at GOS:
No news coverage = no leverage and no candidacy. HRC, Bill, Harold et al can yell all they want; they’re going to be the proverbial tree falling in the woods with no one around.
Harley
Ickes is a pissy old man taking one lap around a political party that no longer belongs to his Family, the Clintons. The credentials committee threat is just a marker put down to assuage the slings and arrows he’s suffered today, and a bargaining chip for Hillary to put on the table when she starts to bargain.
But I seriously doubt they’ll take this to the convention, or even suspend the campaign and resume in Denver. Hillary is a pathological goon, but she values self-preservation, and her political future, including the Senate seat in New York, would be in jeopardy if she did.
As for Talk Left, I’m assuming angry Clinton supporters are flooding the server with waved arms, fiery hair, and fulsome threats.
Morat20
Their live-blogging was hilarious. Did anyone catch the part where BTD stormed out after an argument between him and Jeralyn?
BTD’s decided he’s non-partisan and purely about “the votes counting” (his amazing and sudden hatred of all caucuses and his sudden and deeply felt passion about Michigan and Florida being seated in full, without a single Michigan vote for Obama were just coincidental. He felt that way BEFORE Obama was winning, and just didn’t realize he had to tell anyone).
Jeralyn is all about Hillary winning.
So BTD is angry because he felt that Hillary conceding that the RBC was right to punish Michigan and Florida in the first place destroyed any real rules-based argument, leaving her with just the weak “Dude, you should anyways, so I can winz, yo” argument which isn’t even based in the rules.
Jeralyn thinks BTD’s crazy, because “Dude, you want me to win” is a much more killer argument and this is all about politics and not rules.
So they argued about that. Then BTD had an a total fit over the 69/59 proposal, almost screaming that the RBC didn’t have the authority to assign delegates to candidates. (I don’t think he ever mentioned that the 69/59 plan was the plan the Michigan State party put forward, and I suspect they bloody well DO have the ability to assign delegates in this situation) and was in fact, rather generous all things considered.
Then some random people wept over the death of the Democratic party and Democracy and how Jesus was weeping.
Then the site died. And I was sad.
So I went to MyDD where Jerome is being openly mocked by about 80% of his posters.
Incertus
You deserved it.
TheFountainHead
Generally when that happens, you deserve it.
The Moar You Know
Here in America, such a result is not only not unusual, it’s inevitable.
ethan salto
I know this is probably not the most receptive place, but check out this inspiring gallery of democracy-loving Hillary protesters.
Harley
Morat20,
Izzat your first BTD meltdown? It’s sorta his specialty.
TheFountainHead
Ah, teh stoopid is flowing like the Mississippi over at His44.org:
Cute, no?
dreggas
Read my link above from a report from TNR, given what it seems these “democray loving Hillary supporters” were passing out it may as well have been a right wing rally.
Dennis - SGMM
It’s clear that Clinton’s mistreatment by the party of which she professes to be a member leaves her with no choice but to form her own party. The Hillary Party – “Because she’s a woman!”
Clinton/Wasserman-Schultz ’08!
4tehlulz
You deserved that.
PeterJ
That was a fun read. That gives me some hope about MyDD. Taylor Marsh and Corrente, not so mush.
And I’m stay clear away from the cesspool that is No Quarters. They are probably setting up their own milita by now.
Morat20
Nah. I’ve been watching BTD for awhile. Talk Left and MyDD are a little more…populated…than Hillaryis44, and probably a better insight into the die hards.
However, I’m thinking that the Hillary diehards are actually a lot fewer than most people think.
I just found the argument between BTD and Jeralyn rather interesting. I suspect BTD’s anger is mostly because he wants Clinton to win, but he can’t swallow “Change the rules so I can win” (either because he knows it won’t work, or because it’s too crass).
So he’s angry that she’s going the crass route. He refuses to see that his preferred argument is no less crass, and that the only difference between him and Jeralyn is Jeralyn is honest and open that she wants Hillary to win by all means possible.
BTD wants the same thing, but wants to keep his comforting illusion that he’s not working from purely partisan motives.
Desmond
Talk Left is still down. It doesn’t look good, does it? :D
dreggas
There was a diary on the rec list at the GOS about Larry Johnson having to publicly post and admonish people to NOT make death threats against Obama.
wvng
Look what Jane Hamsher found:
Special.
Clinton really played all the emotional buttons she could find with her supporters, and they will be hard to shut down. Heckofa job.
nightjar
Nope, we’re always receptive to crazed Hillary supporters. We receive them, then promptly mock them with glee.
4tehlulz
Larry’s probably self-reported to the Secret Service by now.
Just Some Fuckhead
That was mighty white of him.
Dennis - SGMM
They emulated their candidate by not paying their bills.
oh really
Not quitting in the face of adversity is usually an admirable trait.
Not knowing when to quit is always a character flaw.
After November, Hillary may be known in perpetuity as “Ralph Nader” Rodham Clinton.
A question for the physicists: how is it possible to cram the egos of Bill, Hillary, and Ralph into one finite universe? If you can answer that one, then please explain if the addition of Planet Lord Bush’s ego changes the deal.
Maybe ego is what all the dark matter really is.
Morat20
Talk Left is still down. It doesn’t look good, does it?
Obama got together with Wright and hacked it. He learned how to do DoS attacks when he was a radical Muslim Communist in an Al Qaeda training camp.
Admittedly, all his techniques are Russian and Iranian, so he’s had to rely on the Black Panthers and his wife’s drug money to help him.
ATinNM
I find the whole thing vastly amusing.
Clinton is doing what every politician, or two-year old, does when they don’t get what they want: throw a temper tantrum. Her rabid supporters (= idiots) will, not doubt, hold their breaths until they all turn blue, stamp their little feet, and generally make asses of themselves. This is only to be expected when (1) a Clinton and (2) political naifs combine during Silly Season – the national presidential election.
As for the election? Both HRC and her fans have over-wrought notions of their importance. HRC has run through her and Bill’s political capital; she has run through her financial capital; now she is just annoying. Her fans have no clout at all as is easily demonstrated by their lack of influence over the past 35 years.
At some point the news (sic) media will get bored, move onto the Next Thing, and Hillary will immigrate to the ‘Land of Who Cares’ — where she will find her fans have already established residences.
HumboldtBlue
This prolly isn’t gonna help much …
Adam
Actually the remedial solution is in the hands of the DNC. It’s in Rule 20.c.5 of the delegate selection rules (which I think I’ve basically memorized at this point, sadly). Ickes is lying.
dreggas
you sure that wasn’t ferraro in disguise?
Octavian
Wired’s Threat Level blog has a pretty good rundown of the shenanigans that went on at the committee session today (with video!), check it out:
Dennis - SGMM
Next up: Clinton drives aimlessly around Denver in a white Bronco.
John Cole
You people are epic fail at embedding links.
And then Dreggas has to blockquote people who have not embedded their links.
Dicks. I went through and fixed them all.
dmsilev
Well, that question has been studied in some depth. The answer lies in an adaptation of black-hole theory. The idea is that some egos are so large and dense that reality effectively collapses around them in a localized area, and anybody entering that localized area (like the event horizon of a black hole) is immediately subsumed by the supercritical ego. The good news is that, like black holes, massive egos evaporate over time via Hawking radiation processes. So, if they’re not fed with a constant stream of new adherents, they eventually shrivel and die.
-dms, and yes I actually am a physicist.
Desmond
Wow, Hillary supporters being openly racist. (oops, I guess I just played the race card; sorry Hillary!)
I guess now that there’s no hope of Hillary winning, they don’t have to beat around the bush anymore.
TheFountainHead
Actually, it helps quite a bit.
Dennis - SGMM
Don’t try to kid us. You just stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. :D
Just Some Fuckhead
That really hurts coming from a guy running his blogsite on a 386DX40 (with math-co!) and a 300 baud acoustical modem.
El Cid
The fact that a Hillary supporter at the RBC meeting was screaming at reporters that Barack Obama was no more than an “inadequate black male” does not mean she was suggesting anything racist at all.
Anyone can clearly see from the context of her remark, she was merely emphasizing the month of June, and the fact that nomination battles have often continued into that month.
See?
ResumeMan
What a pleasant individual!!
The “Obama wouldn’t be running if his opponent wasn’t a white woman” is a new one. Anyone heard that one before?
Dennis - SGMM
So many men complain that they have only one dick and here’s John complaining about having many.
zoe from pittsburgh
It’s time for the healing to begin– for ALL of us to band together and remember what we stand for and what we are against.
Our enemies are NOT other Dems. If you are a Hillary supporter you have every right to be mad, to be disappointed, to be upset that your candidate didn’t win. Vent. Scream. Cry. Let it all out. Then afterwards take a step back and think about the BIG PICTURE.
If anyone is so pro-Clinton that it leads them to hate Obama just for being her opponent, well, I hope that you come around and change your mind. Just keep in mind that the opposite of Hillary’s views and positions is NOT Obama– it’s McCain.
Peace, ya’ll.
Just Some Fuckhead
lolz
TheFountainHead
More gold in that vein at Hillaryis44.org:
slippytoad
How does it go: “Quitters never win. And winners never quit. But those who never win and never quit are idiots.”
dreggas
Sorry john, didn’t realize it would wreak havoc, seemed to show up ok
Helena Montana
I think the rational people who supported Clinton will find themselves able to vote for Obama, especially if McCain keeps being…John McCain. I don’t think he’s going to wear well throughout the next several months. The lunatic fringe Clinton supporters won’t vote for Obama, but I think the that group is chiefly made up of people who really, really have a problem with the color of Obama’s skin, however much they may deny it, and wouldn’t have voted for him even if Shillary said pretty please. I also think that group is shall we say amplified by GOP plants.
Furthermore, I think Clinton has burned so many bridges that she’s not going to have much political influence after the election and certainly has not a prayer of being a candidate in 2012.
Maybe I’m wrong about all this, but that’s how I see it now.
Dennis - SGMM
Or Ralph Nader.
Just Some Fuckhead
Fixt!
dreggas
TFH,
That amount of stupid is just incalculable.
Just Some Fuckhead
Both of those folks got off the crazy train a long time ago.
nightjar
Unfortunately, the BIG PICTURE for the wack job HRC supporters we saw today, consists of calculating how much dynamite it will take to blow up the Democratic Party.
Blue Buddha
I wonder how many are GOP plants as well. Remember when McCain clinched the GOP nomination and several rightwingnut pundits (such as Coulter) said they would vote for Hillary instead? Yeah, whatever. These were the same exact pundits, who for the past eight years have been writing tomes about how Hillary was going to take over the country through the White House, and suddenly they now want her to be President?! Something about that doesn’t add up.
Dennis - SGMM
Oxymoron.
slippytoad
Can we count on them to show up in their Guy Fawkes masks in Denver? Remember, remember, the shit-fit in Denver?
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Anonymous is not amused.
Genine
Unfortunately. The thought behind that is Obama ran because he felt comfortable he could win against a woman. If there was a strong white male candidate, Obama wouldn’t have run or he would have dropped out early.
The woman in that video makes me sad, no angry. That problem with these supporters is that Hillary has become them. They aren’t thinking of the present, they are thinking of the past. They’re thinking of the promotion they got passed over for back in 70’s or 80’s. They worked for the company for many years than some new guy shows up and he gets the higher position, pay and everything. That anger and resentment is still with them and twists things around.
The bad thing about this is that Hillary is playing on this. She is using their pain and resentment and using it for her own personal gain. I’d like to think she is not consciously doing this, but there it is. Of all the things I’ve observed from the Clinton campaign this is, perhaps, the most heinous of all. To use someone else’s pain to manipulate them- on a grand scale. Sure, a lot of groups do this, wingnuts are rife with examples. But I expected better from her. I always liked Obama but I did retain some respect for Clinton. But that is rapidly falling away.
The best I can come up with is that she really doesn’t understand what she is doing. She is so blinded by ambition that she does not see how she is manipulating people and what those consequences will be. Maybe if she sees this video and reads about the protesters, she will start to realize what her campaign and her playing the gender and/or victim card has wrought.
I can only hope.
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
What Sam Stein heard while eating a rueben amongst the ‘Clintonites’:
Pick out the right-wing memes and win a prize!
Doug H. (Fausto no more)
Forgot the link.
Dennis - SGMM
Adviser: “Hillary, that rabbit’s dynamite!”
Clinton: “Fuck you. I’m working on my inauguration speech.”
Rick Taylor
We’ll see. The public statement they made objected to the Michigan decision but not to Florida; if they were going to push this all the way I would have thought they’d push for both.
El Cid
Uh oh — is that a V for Vendetta reference? What would this one be like?
Remember, Remember,
Convention in Denver,
The Michigan and Florida flop.
I see no reason
The DNC treason
Should ever be forgot.
Woodrow "asim" Jarvis Hill
Quick, somebody get a memo to John Edwards.
Ted
OMFG.
that is all.
Texas Dem
I think the Clintons had this mapped out quite some time ago. They knew they wouldn’t be able to get the nomination; the math just didn’t work in their favor. So they set out to destroy Obama for the fall. The scorched earth tactics are definitely doing their reputations some real harm in the short run, but, in the long run, I think the Clintons are betting that a McCain presidency will be such an unmittigated disaster that most of us will come running back to them in a few years begging for help. The calculation is really quite simple: wreck Obama for the fall campaign and then, when McCain is sitting in the oval office, do everything you can to see that a McCain presidency fails–and fails catastrophically. And that won’t be too difficult, given McCain’s obvious shortcomings and the promises he’s making to right wingers. Expect to see Hillary become the voice of the opposition, leading the way as McCain’s agenda is ripped to pieces by a heavily Democratic house and senate. Before long all of those crazies who were protesting today will be cursing McCain every bit as much as they are damning Obama. And at that point, when McCain’s polling numbers are looking very much like George W’s, Hillary will roll out her 2012 campaign.
4tehlulz
This quote is so awesome. Obama, the SECRET MUSLIM tied to the CRAZY BLACK Christian preacher, is funded by the INTERNATIONAL JEW Soros, who controls ISLAM and the BLACK RADICALS behind THE scenes.
They probably drove Fords to DC…
FupDuck
C is for Clindetta
El Cid
Craziness or not, I still admire Clinton & her supporters (as I do Obama and his supporters) for sticking it out through every single state and territory.
grumpy realist
Texas Dem–I read your argument, but considering how Hillary has managed to take a campaign starting out with tons of $$$, name recognition, the DNC in her pocket, tons of backing, and end up trashing every single one of those advantages, I think you’re assuming much more strategic analysis than her group has demonstrated so far.
And they’re STILL stepping on their dicks.
Maggie
Morat20 @6:37 — That was a great post!!
Genine
That line from The Carpetbagger Report was just flat out funny to me.
Helena Montana
Texas Dem Said:
I’ve heard that before, but if that’s their logic, I think they’re going to be sorely disappointed. Democrats will remember who sabotaged the election–any of you guys going to forget if that happens?–and Clinton won’t get anywhere near the nomination.
After all, if we liked and approved of the Clinton tactics, we’d just go ahead and be Republicans and vote for McCain anyway.
Delia
Yeah, if only. When I last checked the folks at TalkLeft were all busy dropping out of the Democratic Party, they were so distraught at today’s proceedings. I’m afraid to look at No Quarter. But I don’t think Larry’s posting warnings against death threats out of the goodness of his heart. I think he’s had some words from the Secret Service about the wackos he and Susan are steaming up with their garbage. Or he knows he will if he doesn’t knock them down a notch.
But Hillary will paint herself into a corner with Batshit Crazy Old Lady. If she ends up with people like that following her around and swearing that they’ll vote for McCain rather than Obama because they’ve been denied their True Leader, well, that’s pretty much karma. I hope Batshit Crazy Lady follows Hillary around for the rest of their natural lives.
Maggie
And sure enough, that’s what these Clinton supporters plan to do. It clears up a lot for me. I thought her ethical limitations were a liability, but it turns out they’re a non-negotiable, don’t-leave-whom-without-them plus.
Helena Montana
And good riddance, I say!
Delia
It’s been a long time since I heard a conspiracy theory this awesome. If only it had the Illuminati in it it would be perfect.
Delia
And after all, Hillary’s a Goldwater Girl at heart. It’s so good to see her return to her roots.
Rick Taylor
And BTD is already criticizing the Clinton campaign for giving in on Florida.
Conservatively Liberal
I guess Agent Flobee looked in his Depends and found something ‘new and dramatic’:
Get ready for another round of shit flinging insanity.
cbear
cbear
Jeebus, it’s even worse than I thought—now they’ve taken over the B-Quote system. RUN!
Rick Taylor
I don’t have a tv, so I’m wondering how much some of the Clinton protester videos we’ve seen on youtube are making it to the mainstream media? They make her campaign look bad. Just curious.
El Cid
Report in the UK’s Telegraph newspaper:
oh really
While no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American voter, it seems implausible that HRC will be the candidate in 2012. For the sake of argument, lets say half of Democrats support Obama and half support Clinton. If Clinton sabotages Obama this year and then shows up in 2012 expecting people to rally to her because she was right about Obama being unelectable, it seems unlikely that she’ll get majority support. Which 2006 Obama primary supporters are going to switch to Clinton? None. Many HRC supporters will vote for Obama in November and if he loses, at least some will see Hillary as the Ralph Nader of 2006. So, they won’t be likely to switch back to her. That will leave her with even less support than she got this year and that wasn’t enough to get the nomination (except by theft).
Sadly, it could be that Clinton is trying to force her way onto the ticket, but denying it so she can keep the rabid dogs snarling, foaming, and snapping. And it could be that Obama has already made it clear that she wouldn’t be his first choice (currently I’d see her ranking somewhere around 6,500,000,000th on the planet (assuming greatly liberalized constitutional requirements). Only Bill would be lower, were he eligible.
The other possibility is that she realizes she’s destroying her own future, but she’s decided in keeping with her adult status that if she can’t have it then neither can Obama. I believe this fits with what I now think of her as a person.
In the end, it’s probably just that HRC has gone completely insane. The idea that the presidency can be denied to her is simply more than she can handle. Besides, aren’t African Americans supposed to vote for, but not challenge you? Very, very sad.
Rick Taylor
Sounds good to me if it’s true. As much as Clinton has driven so many of us crazy, she did get close to half the Democratic primary vote in the end, and I can’t imagine a VP offering. It plays to her strengths and perhaps give her some incentives for supporting the nominee as she’s promised.
Just Some Fuckhead
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Apply now:
http://my.barackobama.com/developer
Please be sure to pass this note along to anyone else you know who might be interested.
Thank you,
Michael
Michael Slaby
Chief Technology Officer
Obama for America
Adam
Both of the crazed Hillary supporters complaining about their votes being stolen in the clips Jane Hamsher has up are from New York… it couldn’t have been that hard to find some people from Michigan, could it? Last I checked, NY was one of the states that “counted.” B-
grumpy realist
For those of who are wondering about the Illuminati, I notice that FIVE groups have already been linked in Delia’s conspiracy message above, and we all know that FIVE is the number of the Illuminati….
(R.I.P., Robert Anton Wilson. Damn, he was good.)
nightjar
I wonder If this is what they have in mind.
Shygetz
Yeah, that one’s been around a while.
Delia
Well, that just proves it, then. The batshit crazy Hillary loons must be on to something. I wonder if they’ve cornered the market in tinfoil hats.
wasabi gasp
It appears his opponent is a white geezer dood. So, that there gets a big Suck It!
HRA
I don’t know why I keep seeing people being surprised at the Clinton tactics. It’s how they have operated since day one in politics.
I keep coming across some saying Gore asked them not to campaign for him. It could be true considering all the furor over their WH follies. Still, it was more likely they were relieved if Gore did ask them to stay away. Bush had to win for the next phase of Clintons being back in the WH. Now McCain has to win for the same reason.
I watched the RBC meeting. I thought Robert Wexler (FL) was terrific. I was grateful to see the 19 vote for Michigan.
After Ickes end remarks about Michigan and the demonstrators in the room. It will be even harder to find some people from Michigan for Hillary now.
wasabi gasp
I hope that “openly considering” is some kind of euphemism for “fat chance.”
jam hamster jay
I’ve been catching up on the coverage of this event since I got home about an hour ago, and I’d like to say that the pro-Obama blogs are misrepresenting Clinton, her campaign, and her supporters.
I would really, really like to say that.
God, I wish I could say that.
4tehlulz
ru teh 1337 h4XX0r? c0m3 w0rk f0r B4r4ck 0b4m4 & w3 c4n pwnz j0n mk4a1n h4rdk0rz 2g3th3r. n00b 5cr1p+ k1dd33z GTF0.
Brachiator
Unfortunately, this is who Hillary Clinton is, at least in part. It is simply not possible to unknowingly or unconsciously craft a negative, cynical, manipulative presidential campaign strategy and still be in the race at this date. The people around her are her own long-time loyalists or former members of her campaign team.
The moment that she became clearly and irrevocably behind in the delegate count, the strongest undercurrent of her campaign theme has been “if you don’t give me what I want, I will hurt you and wreak havoc wherever I can.”
And she has been true to her word.
I think you have it exactly right. Senator Clinton could not possibly expect the Party to turn to her after doing everything she could to defy it, nor could she count on Obama supporters seeing her as anything other than a vengeful spoiler. She is going to have her hands full trying to salvage her Senate career.
The only problem with this is that Senator Clinton has been offered a dignified exit numerous times before when it became clear that she could not fairly win the nomination, and she has consistently rejected these offers.
Any new offer made to her must come with the clear understanding that both she and her husband must enthusiastically campaign for Obama, with a special emphasis made on undoing the rancor and resentment that the Clintons and their surrogates have so masterfully stoked.
As it is, I fully expect the Clintons to get Obama to agree to pay off that $30 million plus Clinton campaign debt. Then I fully expect to see the Clintons find all kinds of excuses not to get out on the campaign trail.
Because this is who the Clintons are.
Cain
Fuckhead,
Good stuff. I passed that on to a friend of mine who is a security guy and is well known in the comp security field…
cain
theturtlemoves
<Off-Topic> Thanks for the heads up, Fuckhead. Looks like they aren’t looking for people working remotely and I’m not really up for a move to Boston, but otherwise I’d be all over that. </End OT>
And the nutjobs at the RBC meeting? Typical authoritarian followers, incapable of independent thought. It’s easy to dismiss them as right-wing plants, but the left has just as many crazies as the right. They may smell like pacthouli, but otherwise pretty much the same idiots as the morans [sic] on the right they like to scream at.
Conservatively Liberal
Some of the YouTube comments on the clip of that lady from Manhattan blowing up at the meeting:
And a blast from the past?
Oh the inanity!
Dennis - SGMM
If Clinton had done as much damage to the Republican party in her thirty-five years of
selfpublic service as she has done to the Democratic party in the past few months Obama wouldn’t have had a chance.ScottF
Clinton has exactly one path to the 2012 nomination.
She’s got to visibly work her ass off to get Obama elected, and Obama has to somehow lose anyway (in such a way that can’t be traced to how she behaved in the primaries).
Otherwise, she’s persona non grata in the Democratic Party. It’s hard to imagine she and/or her team doesn’t realize this now; they would have to be delusional not to realize this once they’ve gotten some distance from the primaries.
Conservatively Liberal
Now if Obama really wanted to get the seriously hard core freaks in the world of computing to work for him, that ad line would probably do it.
Delia
I’m afraid it’s not at all hard to imagine that she/they don’t realize this as yet. Or, perhaps, ever. When you’re deep into narcissistic mode such thoughts don’t cross your beautiful mind. I expect her failure will always be attributed to sexism/dastardly plots by various and sundry enemies, etc. Hence, the Batshit Crazies will have every reason to follow their Dear Leader to the natural end of her days.
Dennis - SGMM
Oh yeah? McCain won’t be caught napping:
The Other Steve
I really don’t care any more. I’m so done with Clinton.
Conservatively Liberal
Adjusted. ;)
Dennis - SGMM
Whippersnapper.
Ninerdave
After watching the RBC today, I’ve come to the following conclusion.
Fuck Hillary, Fuck Bill, Fuck her campaign and anyone associated with it and most of all fuck that wacko bunch of bizzaro Bush bots that call themselves “Hillary supporters”.
bostondreams
I found that over at Taylor Marsh’s place. These folks really are losing it! And they don’t see how utterly silly and destructive they are. They remind me of my students!
Johnny Pez
Ah, a chance to screw up health care reform again. Misty, watercolored memories . . .
jake
Fixed.
They’ll appreciate someone who kept that MUPpity Negro in his place.
Barring that she’ll have to develop an ovinator or a neuralyzer that works via TV broadcast.
/late nite geeking.
foolio
She is only destroying her own future if Obama wins. If he loses she will look vindicated. We wont fall for it but I think a lot of people will.
If Obama loses, she wont be blamed – his backers will
foolio
Since when did BJ do comment moderation?
Beej
ohreally’s got it right upthread. If Clinton sabotages the Obama campaign this year with the idea that she could run in 2012 if McCain wins and serves only 1 term, she’s smoking something. First and foremost, if she undercuts Obama’s campaign, AAs are going to stay away from the polls in record numbers if and when she is the Democratic presidential candidate. A Dem cannot win the white house without the backing of the African American community. The Clintons have to know that. Makes you wonder if they’re now at the point where they just want to burn bridges, theirs and everyone else’s.
Just Some Fuckhead
Sounds like they’re going to dance their misery away.
Dennis - SGMM
So I went to the web site. Bwahahahaha! On the home page I found:
We’re not losing any votes with these people: they’re too fucking stupid to find their way to the polling place.
nightjar
Ballet is always more better at duh box. Vote The Nutcracker. Yes we can!
Yea, arguing to accept the results of an election with only one candidate was reminicient of the Soviet Union.
Just Some Fuckhead
Here is the website Ed Hale really needs.
Delia
Because we is tired of hoping for not being pushed around anymore. We is liking Cheney mocking us and sneering at us and is hoping to get more face-grinding-in-dirt from Mr. Magoo even if he’s kind of forgetful. So bring on more republicans. Maybe they take away our Social Security this time. We can only hope.
Dennis - SGMM
I are John McCain and I endorsicate this massage.
Ninerdave
Always for a new name/email combo.
Ninerdave
Good. Beat it. You’ll find group-think is welcomed over there.
wasabi gasp
That site is sure aching for a slogan. Maybe something along the lines of At least I don’t plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt.
Dennis - SGMM
De facto meets de jure and the collective IQ of the Republican party slips another couple of points.
Just Some Fuckhead
The Clintons have a special gift for turning folks into Republicans. I’m reminded of 1994. My theory is that when you’re selling Republicanism Lite, it makes Real Republicanism just a small step thataway.
Clintonism is a gateway drug to hardcore Republicanism.
Delia
Hillary: Goldwater Girl 4EVAH
Zuzu's Petals
Re the video of the woman throwing a nutty:
Got to be drunk.
That’s all I can hope.
Ninerdave
Go read TalkLeft…
Is there that much booze in the world?
Thankfully, from what I’ve seen the
WingnutsHillary supporters are vocal, but few.KCinDC
Yow, I went to the RBC meeting today (it’s only about a mile from me, after all), and the woman in the video was sitting behind me when I came back from lunch and is a large part of the reason I didn’t stick around for the rest of the proceedings.
Lupin
Does anyone have an insight into the mind of Jeralyn (TalkLeft)?
This is, or was, a smart, intelligent woman who, for five years, wrote some of the best legal analysis I’ve read on the various ills and lies of the Bush administration. A laser-sharp mind, always cutting through the bullshit to get at the truth. One of the best.
Yet, now, when it comes to the Clinton campaign, she writes the most appalling rubbish, that even a first year law student would hesitate to use in a debate.
This woman, who has steadfastly argued that the party should champion Hillary because of the will of the people, wrote yesterday: “Barack Obama removed himself voluntarily from the ballot. Hillary has to be allotted her votes, and he has to accept the consequences of his action, which is that he gets none of the popular vote in Michigan.”
It is obvious that SOME voters in MI favored Obama and therefore he is entitled to SOME votes. To argue otherwise is, in fact, the real thwarting the will of the people.
Now I’d expect that sort of dishonest-or-asinine thinking from Redstate, LGF, Free Republic, etc. But Jeralyn?
There are plenty of reasons to support Clinton (no matter what one may think), but this is not one of them, and Jeralyn ought to know that this either venal or stupid argument only diminishes her and her candidate.
I don’t get it.
I don’t think we’re going to recover from this soon. Jeralyn will always be in my mind the ordinary sane person I’ve known for years who suddenly went completely bonkers. You can’t forget that easily.
theturtlemoves
Dear lord that hcsfjm.com site is horrible. Looks like some twelve year old’s home page from Tripod or Geocities circa 1998. The flashing lights and stylin’ navigation buttons are particularly nice elements, as are all the links opening in a new window. It at least gives me hope that none of my fellow Web Monkeys are dumb enough to be involved with that piece of crap. That site was obviously set up by someone who wouldn’t know CSS from PCP, and is probably much more familiar with the latter.
El Doh
Jeralyn, like many others, has succumbed to the “sports team” tribal mindset that helps keep The South so solidly red. Of course there’s far more to it, but it plays a part.
It’s the same mindset that keeps the majority of the remaining 28% supporting the current President.
You get this on all sides, Republican, Democrat, Obama, Clinton.
The same kind of thinking can lead to all kinds of atrocities including war and genocide.
It’s not a function of smart or dumb.
MyDD’s Jerome seems to be exhibiting similar symptoms. Rather incredible that someone who co-wrote “Crashing the Gate” would be helping lead the charge of the ultimate DLC candidate really.
Ninerdave
me.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/”>The Authoritarians. Read it.
Ninerdave
Wow! WP really ganked that link…
Try that again:
Here
Addendum to my previous post, I don’t anyone who will whip authoritarians up into a frenzy anywhere near a position of power. Bush, Clinton…to name two.
Jack H.
I think it was at Whiskey Fire I first heard the sports team analogy and it sure does fit. Otherwise rational people can actually HATE people in Nexttown and believe that the refs are against them year after year. Supporters of all candidates display this to some degree, but boy the Clinton supports have taken it to a new level. There must be a psychological term for it.
Dennis - SGMM
Delusional?
conumbdrum
I call bullshit.
If this guy isn’t a GOP ratfucker, I’ll eat a hornet’s nest garnished with weasel spit. Check out what you get when you visit this bonesmoker’s website and click on PLANS:
See, he wrote “DEMOCRAT party.” Dead giveaway.
Adam
It’a not just the sports-team effect, it’s something you see commonly with interdisciplinary knowledge workers, like lawyers. Jeralyn is an expert in one specific fairness-arbitrated area of the law but she’s not applying her confidence in her expertise to a subject that she feels passionately about but where her actual knowledge is little better than a 1Ls. That might be OK if she was circumspect to realize that she’s no an expert on election law and approach things with a little more humility — but she’s got more than enough troll fighter on her sit to strikes down with so little effort that she never has to question whether she’s actually opertating at an adequate level.
All smart people have weaknesses. Some are more obvious that others…
Rick Taylor
I can’t speak about Jeralyn, but I can say from experience, in general a keen mind is by itself not a guarantee against self deception. The keener the mind, the better the ability to create subtle arguments to deceive oneself, if one’s so inclined.
El Doh
Thanks, Ninerdave. I shall peruse it when it’s not the middle of the night.
Conservatively Liberal
Flat out busted, good catch conumbdrum! That word really trips up the wing nuts. It is like a Tourette’s quirk with them.
Republican Ratfucker trying to poach the deranged Hillary supporter vote. In some ways, I feel the right deserves to have some of them…lol!
Prospero
It’s well known that vampires can’t resist the thought that nobody will be able to recognize their name if they spell it backwards… Oh wait, wrong kind of bloodsucker.
Googootz
I guess that idiot in the video will be smug and full of self-satisfaction in January, when President McCain privatizes her Social Security to help finance another 100 years in Iraq.
Would people like her vote for McCain, over an Obama/Sebelius or Obama/Napolitano ticket?
What if Obama wins in spite of people like her; do they expect that all will be forgiven?
bago
Paging Dr Freud.
pseudonymous in nc
Word. One sad characteristic from a number of Clinton supporters (and it’s not limited to them, by any means) is a failure to apply the logic of their earlier statements to their current positions.
And the internets magnifies this by providing a ready supply of people to support your current, ever-shifting position. If you set up a website claiming that Obama is an alien who has infected us all with a mind ray, you’ll get a dozen commenters who find you and back your every word.
Xenos
It goes way back to teh Puritans. The witchcraft trials of the 1670s resulting in 20 judicial homocides arose from a bunch of people who had lost a series of lawsuits and closely contested elections, and went for the nuclear option. Since people do not believe in witchcraft anymore, I am not sure what the nuclear option will be that Clinton resorts to at this point. All the really nasty defamatory attacks have been raised already.
So thanks for exporting all your roundheads here. They make lovely neighbors.
dslak
Roundheads? Somebody paid attention during their classes on the English Civil War!
El Cid
I don’t think that it was really so clearly intentional as it is now, but I think that what we have been seeing is a systematic freeing of the Democratic Party from the 10-year effort begun in 1984 to place it under the hold of the Democratic Leadership Council and its chosen teammates.
People sometimes forget — the DLC wasn’t just about ideologically kicking out the labor and liberal Democrats whom the more conservative and Southern Democrats blamed for Reagan’s presidential victory.
It really was a movement seeking (successfully, for over a decade) to capture all the institutions and institutional bases of power for the Democratic Party — committee leadership, party leadership, funding control, policy studies.
Although they were sane enough that they could actually govern, unlike the absolutely barking mad Republican ideologues of the Karl Rove vintage, still, it was largely due to the rigid implementation of their Republican agenda that Democrats lost the Congress from 1994 – 2006 and paved the way for the Bush Jr. triumvirate of madness.
It’s interesting that the highly ideological, DLC — leader of the Republican big business agenda with a Democratic flavor — may have been taken down by a quite liberal candidate and movement which, though, isn’t gathered around a particular ideological agenda.
It’s the exact reverse of what the Clintonites have been selling. It is Obama and his advisers pursuing a competent government under decent principles approach, while they have in reality always been trying to define “good government” as the rigid implementation of their agenda.
I mean, look at what Hillary did for her first attempt to “reform” U.S. health care: she met in repeated meetings in the Jackson Hole group led by the 5 largest insurers & HMO’s. The gigantic “managed competition” model that THEY, the biggest insurers & HMO’s, designed and backed (recall the “Alliance for Managed Care”?) was based on using all the levers of government to try and FIRST squeeze out anyone and any approach which might one day lead to a single payer plan, and SECOND to try to work around anti-monopoly and anti-cartel laws to try and basically give the multi-trillion dollar health care industry to an oligopoly of those who had most injured it.
This oligopolistic approach was then, predictably enough, solidly opposed by all the slightly smaller (but still giant) insurers & HMO’s who would have been shut out (the HIAA with the ‘Harry & Louise’ ads) and the ‘new’ Republicans like Newt Gingrich who had circumvented the DLC and moderate Republican lock on Big Money donors to capture smaller donors — including lots of slightly less gigantic insurance companies.
Given the Clintons’ rigid dedication to this oligopolistic model of health care, who on the public side would rally to support it?
It wasn’t because it was “complicated” — although it was, and necessarily, because had it been simple it would have been seen as the oligopolistic industry cartel consolidation it intended.
It was because their approach angered a set of foes in the business community on behalf of others in the business community, while specifically alienating the kinds of social groups who could have been relied on to support a real and genuinely progressive health care reform.
What’s more, the Southern conservative Democrats and the anti-labor and anti-liberal Democrats can’t (at least not too realistically, although they have tried and will keep trying to) blame Barack Obama and his supporters as being some ideologically opposed cadre of ultra-liberals.
Thus their narrative of being worth of rigidly capturing and controlling the Democratic Party at all levels based on their ideological program to oppose labor (usually phrased as “labor excesses” or “big labor”) & liberalism has been interrupted — by people they can’t easily tar as being their former ideological foes.
Thus, also, the nonsense about Reagan Democrats — the people screaming from a DLC type background about the Reagan Democrats are simply emphasizing that since the early 1980s they have been ideologically fixated on a strategy of remaking the Democrats as Reaganite-lites, and it is simply sending them over the edge to see that a political force not stuck in that rigid, stupid ideology (disguised, cleverly enough, as “Third Way” flexibility) is on the edge of capturing government to a degree they never, ever could.
It’s very, very interesting, and not something I ever saw as even a possibility.
Wilfred
The war is over – now comes the Clinton insurgency, the Cunni uprising.
Conservatively Liberal
That is an excellent analysis El Cid, and it squares well with events as they have unfolded. I left the Democratic party in ’92 because of the DLC types, and now that they are on the way out I am glad to come back. I hope that we don’t follow the route of the right but on the opposite side of the spectrum, and I hope to be among those who will work to prevent that from happening.
The DLC is not dead though, and we can’t rest until we finish the job in the general. I know that we have not heard the last of Hillary (or Bill) and their DLC cronies, and things are going to get interesting the closer we get to August. I really hope that Hillary pulls out and works to try and repair some of the bridges her and Bill burned, but I don’t think that will happen. If she does it, it will be interesting to see how that develops.
Either way, we have almost won the first battle but we have a long slog ahead.
Think they will need any linguists?
Sorry but that one was wide open and I just couldn’t resist. ;)
Xenos
What to title this narrative of vitorious reform-oriented statists, then? Triumph of the Goo-Goos? The Return of the Mugwumps?
I suspect Churchill is being proven right again: we Americans will be doing the right thing now that we have exhausted all the alternatives.
Conservatively Liberal
Excellent analysis of the RBC meeting yesterday by a diarist at Kos.
Excellent read.
cleek
tribalism
El Cid
Why does this always have to come back to creepy sexism? I’m reminded of the 1990s, when a lot of us had to simultaneously oppose the anti-progressive agenda of the Clintons alongside the freakish, lunatic ultra-rightists, many of whom were scared to death that Hillary was going to call in the Yoo-nited Nayshuns to take their wee-wees away.
I think with less of a rigid, concentrated movement centered around the Clintons at play, the opportunities for women-led real progressive politics have just gotten a lot better. And Clinton’s fight certainly showed that a woman can win, because she very nearly did.
smiley
heh
QuickRob
Ignore all this: I am a “concern” troll**
Thank yourselves, your Obamasturbation and idolatry of a false beacon of hope and change, which any sane observer could only peg on naivety and a desire to be lied to, is what let the Democratic Party get away with mishandling this entire affair for so long.
The Democratic base, just like the Republican base, is obviously a bunch of ideologically-blinded sadists.
The Republicans rather quickly chose a candidate with a decent shot at winning. The Democrats, held hostage by their far left wing, chose the least electable of the two and then quickly set upon each other with knives, let the situation get out of control, split the party, and now stands to make the 2000 and 2004 elections look like model of proper democracy.
With all Obama’s Big Gulp-sized problems, instead of working to put them behind the party and unite the Democratic voters, Obama has waited until yesterday to throw his Church to the wolves. Dishonorable of him, but you will all still never dare speak poorly of that man, a religiously-demented byproduct of corrupt Chicago politics who makes George W. Bush’s religious zealotry look quaint and old-fashioned in comparison.
What’s that you say? I’m wrong about him?!? I should take Obama’s word that he’s not that kinda guy? I should ignore the facts and walk behind the shepherd for he will lead me to salvation?
Ok…..sure.
If the Democrats win in November it will be sheer luck that your collective ineptitude had not been your downfall. Keep talking about how “exceptional” things are going and you will preclude yourselves from ever getting exceptional performance if you are going to reward Obama with continuing unquestioned allegiance for his work so far. You all make the Bush bootlickers look reasonable.
Pot. Kettle. Pathetic.
Notorious P.A.T.
What?!? How could anyone pass over the lady in that YouTube video for a promotion? I’d love to have her running my sales department.
Wow, that’s a great idea. Then we could put Michael Brown in charge of FEMA, Don Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense, Bill Bennet as drug czar, Dan Quayle in charge of Dept of Education, Joe Hazelwood as Secretary of Energy, etc.
Notorious P.A.T.
Heh heh.
John Cole
Mind you- “quick” Rob is the same guy who agrees completely with Gerry ferraro’s “Not a racist, just full of racial resentment” masterpiece.
dslak
Shorter QuickRob: Concern troll is concerned.
QuickRob
I do agree, it’s actually a nuanced statement she made…the fact that no one here can grasp the big idea just goes to show.
QuickRob
Who knew? There’s a difference between “resentment” and “racism”???!!!!
What a concept!
EL
Interesting, QuickRob, as at the beginning of this process, the common thinking – especially among Republicans – was that Clinton was poison due to her high negatives, and the person the RNC most wanted to run against. That history seems to be conveniently forgotten in your post?
Notorious P.A.T.
You convinced me!
QuickRob
El, now both the Democrats have high negatives.
Dennis - SGMM
Ever notice how trolls give themselves a name that’s the exact opposite of their abilities?
Davebo
Look guys, don’t waste your time in QuickRob. He’s as fanatical as the lady in the video.
There is only one person who could possibly reason with Rob, and she refuses to.
What Rob desires is for the Supreme Court to vote, preferably 5 to 4, that Caucuses are inherently unfair their delegates should not be seated. That Florida and Michigan should be seated with double votes per delegate and Michigan’s undecided vote should be either dropped, or given to Hillary.
That’s the only thing that will satisfy these people.
Florida 2000 all over again.
dslak
As I believe I said the last time QuickRob graced us with his presence, I always take the sage advice of the opposition on which is the best candidate very seriously.
EL
QuickRob wrote:
Very true. And if Hillary Clinton had been the frontrunner, the Republican smear artists would be concentrating on her instead of Obama, and her negatives would be even higher. Whoever is the nominee will be the focus of fierce attacks which result in higher negatives. No candidate (on either side) is immune.
If you’re a Clinton supporter, intellectual honesty should force you to admit that were she the frontrunner, all sorts of mud would be thrown, and some would stick. The “plucky underdog fighter” image that is helping her would not be in play. And some concern trolls would be moaning about the stupidity of the Democrats in appointing the obvious but flawed candidate.
QuickRob
Davebo, you pegged me!
Observer
Before there was Karl Rove, there was Dick Morris.
Who hired him again?
Right.
QuickRob
Republican “smear artists” (I hear the cuckoo clock right now) didn’t hurt Obama – his wife and his pastor and his own mouth and his entire church and his campaign volunteers and the lefty blogosphere hurt him. His support from the fringe left and certain partisan media gave him a crutch which will weaken him as a general election candidate.
The sooner the “Republicans are scary” bullshit stops and you grow up, the better off you will be. If it’s not the Republicans that are out to get you, it’s then “Hillary = Rethuglican” or some other nonsense. Us vs them. Black vs white. It’s not complicated. If you want to win the election stop acting like morons. That’s my point.
Obama is not great, he’s alright. He’s not without faults, he’s a sketchy guy, he’s too religious, his Church is full of wingnuts and freaks, his wife needs to stop talking, etc etc…Republicans are not needed in order to discredit Obama, he’s doing fine on his own.
I am NOT a Clinton supporter, BTW.
grumpy realist
Except that the US really can’t take another four years of the Bush platform, I’d almost like to see the nomination get handed over to Hillary (Obama gets it, then turns around and says “you seem to want it so much, you run this time, I’ll take my chances 4 years down the road”) and watch Hillary get royally kicked from here to Timbuctoo.
Hello? Delusional? High negatives? Has managed to piss off a large chunk of her OWN PARTY?
(Hillary, running on a platform of “I Deserve The Presidency Because It’s MY Turn now!” doesn’t impress me with anything except with your cluelessness.)
Hillary Clinton reminds me of Mary Queen of Scots–another female who was totally incompetent at political finesse and with absolutely no sense of political power. Strange, because other female members of the family like Mary de Guise (MQS’s mother) and Elizabeth I were very, very good at it.
QuickRob
Alright, concern troll has to go run some errands. If anyone wants to think I am running, that’s cool. I made my point, whether or not anyone agrees is pretty much beyond my control. Just remember you guys are part of the 1% of US citizens who pay this close attention to politics, and the majority of Americans are moderates.
IMHO, Clinton is trying to play the moderate after failing at her attempt at veering to the left of Obama. John McCain just has to try to not be grumpy and he can easily make himself into the moderate candidate who hasn’t been stabbed to death in the Dem-vs-dem knife fight. So long as Obama is getting blind, unquestioning support from so many of his fans, the Republicans can sit and watch you all self-destruct. Karl Rove isn’t needed, you are all killing yourselves. My advice to you of course is suspect (I like Clinton or I like McCain or I am a Rethuglican, yada yada yada), and that’s OK, but JUST LIKE FERRARO’S VERY SIMPLE STATEMENT (which no one here can fucking understand??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!) fallson deaf and hostile ears, your willingness to stick with Obama like Hillary stuck with Bill will make all you guys look like you got played in the end.
Off to Walgreens.
dslak
QuickRob’s analysis is thoughtful and penetrating. Why didn’t we see it sooner?
Xenos
QR: you are failing to support your assertions with any useful evidence or argumentation, so you are being ignored. And your main point is non-sensical:
I repeat it here because it speaks for itself. Or rather, it does not speak for itself, because it does not scan. It is not our ‘blind, unquestioning support’ for Obama that deafens us to your brilliant point, it is the fact that Clinton has pandered, lied, and disgraced herself that has turned a lot of Democrats away from her.
“She made me hate her, I didn’t want to do it, why did she she put me through it…”
Kirk
Umm, folks? when he says concern troll, take Quick Rob at his word. If you read his blog, he’s long been a supporter of the Republicans. In February, he wrote of the likelihood that Obama would probably win, saying, “So, I’m feeling pretty buoyant right now. Obama’s on track to get the nomination, unless Clinton stages a comeback. But Obama’s got that ridiculous Obama-mentum or whatever, and Hillary Clinton is off-key.
I’m optimistic because I think Clinton would be a more difficult challenge for McCain than Obama will be.”
Worth noting that McCain wasn’t his first choice, just ‘the best left’.
So when he tells you he’s concern trolling, he is. Sheesh.
Conservatively Liberal
Fixed.
My, what an ugly little troll.
Beej
How much will you bet that the twit in the video is a Repug plant? Watch it again and see if you think she’s freaking out or acting.