The Uproar Over Carter

I’m not sure I “get” the outrage being expressed over Jimmy Carter’s visit to the Middle East and his conversations with Hamas:

Carter’s series of meetings with top Hamas officials this past week have drawn condemnation from the U.S. and Israeli governments for engaging in diplomacy with a group they consider a terrorist organization. […]

Most Israeli officials have refused to meet Carter during his trip, angry over his insistence that Israel should talk to Hamas. Many Israelis dislike Carter’s observations about Israeli policies toward Palestinians in his recent book, “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.”

U.S. and Israeli officials believe Carter’s meetings with Hamas will achieve little, and could actually harm the Middle East peace process.

Because, you know, what we’ve been doing for decades has worked out so well. To quote Ben Franklin Rita Mae Brown:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Rep. Sue Myrick even wants Carter’s passport revoked and funding of the Carter center cut off. Idiot. Look, there’s no doubt that Hamas is a terrorist organization. But cutting them off altogether doesn’t seem to be working. And remember, they were elected, so no matter what your feelings are about them, they have to be part of the process. So far, the policies of the US and Israel don’t seem to be working, and if someone is trying something different, I’m all for that. Love him or hate him, Jimmy Carter’s got a far better Middle East résumé than any of the clowns condemning him (who, in my opinion, only want to see him fail because he might achieve something where their own heroes have failed miserably.)

Joshua Holland pretty much sums up how I feel:

One of the ways to almost guarantee that a peace agreement will be impossible to implement is to negotiate it without bringing all of the combatants to the table. Israel and Fatah (the faction of Mahmoud Abbas, Chairman of the Palestinian Authority) can negotiate a deal, but if Hamas isn’t invested in it, then they’ll have no incentive to comply with its terms.

One doesn’t need to have warm feelings towards Hamas to recognize this reality.

More here.






173 replies
  1. 1
    dr. luba says:

    Of course, these are the same folks who had the vapors when Carter got the Nobel Peace prize (and nearly stroked when Gore got it). They simply can’t understand why Dear Leader wasn’t the recipient instead–after all, look at all those Iraqis he liberated!!!!

  2. 2
    cleek says:

    i have a theory. let me share it with you:

    people who hate Democrats will find a way to get upset over anything a Democrat does.

  3. 3
    merl says:

    There’s no way in hell that Israel didn’t approve of Carter’s meetings.

  4. 4
    TR says:

    Didn’t Israel ask Carter to pass along a message? The foreign minister or someone?

  5. 5
    Wilfred says:

    Anybody with any sense at all about Palestine knows that Hamas has become the legitimate – the only – voice of Palestinian nationalism.

    Jimmy Carter has real balls, he’s not intimidated by the ‘anti-Semite, anti-Semite’ screeching of the American left and right. He has nothing to gain from this and no more to lose. He’s free, and the influence of the Myricks and the rest of the Aipac crowd have no effect on him anymore.

    By what he’s done with his post-presidential life, the country should be proud of him. Instead, the Democrats have abandoned him because he challenged the Israeli narrative openly and forthrightly and has been the only American public figure of note to even remotely criticize the Israel occupation.

  6. 6
    lutton says:

    Sinn Féin, anyone?

  7. 7
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    Israel will not negotiate in good faith with any Palestinian group because they would have to address property, borders, water rights and much more that they are in no hurry to give up. It takes two to tango, and everything that is wrong over there is not the fault of everyone except Israel.

    I used to be a hardcore Israel supporter, but not any more. They have a right to exist, but not at the expense of everyone else. My turning point came when I learned that for every Israeli killed, they have killed fifteen Palestinians (at that time). It caught my attention because one pundit noted that the Palestinians were getting better at killing Israelis. They said that historically it has averaged 15 to 1, but at that time the Palestinians had pared it down to 3 Palestinians to every Israeli killed.

    This caught my attention immediately. All I ever heard on the news was ‘insert number Israelis were killed in a suicide bombing today…’, with the occasional mentioning of deaths of Palestinians in retaliation by the Israelis. I had always assumed that Israel was taking the brunt of the damage and only responding as they needed to. I decided to dig in to everything I could find about events over there, and it was a eye opener for me.

    Despite what supporters say, Israel is only concerned about Israel. Everything else is secondary, including the US. They are concerned for their survival as a nation, and they will do anything to assure it. Even if it means spying on us and stealing our secrets. They don’t care, it is all in the name of survival for them and that is how they justify it.

    Israel has a right to exist, but not at the expense of everyone else. It takes a leader to solve the problem, and there are no leaders here or over there. So the tit-for-tat fighting goes on and we foot the bill.

    I have Jimmy Carter’s book on my coffee table, and it is damn well written with plenty of reference material and footnotes. He is no slouch on this subject, and as a former president, he has a unique insight in to dealing (or trying to deal) with Israel.

    Carter is a fine man and I fully support his efforts. More power to him.

  8. 8
    Davis X. Machina says:

    Isn’t it, like, *useful*, to have someone to talk to people you loudly and publicly refuse to talk to, but have to talk to anyways?

  9. 9
    Wilfred says:

    I used to be a hardcore Israel supporter, but not any more. They have a right to exist, but not at the expense of everyone else. My turning point came when I learned that for every Israeli killed, they have killed fifteen Palestinians (at that time).

    Uh oh. Aipac alert!!! American caught thinking for himself.

  10. 10
    slippy hussein toad says:

    If Israel had an interest in resolving the situation over there, they might want to start talking to the people across the firing zone from them.

    Since it’s clear that they’re not, adults will have to come in and take over the process for them.

  11. 11
    Svensker says:

    Don’t you know you’re only supposed to negotiate with people who already agree with you and with whom you’re already at peace?

    Anyone else is just a bomb target.

  12. 12
    rachel says:

    Jimmy Carter is one of our better (ex) presidents. I just wish that he’d done more to stop the Kwangju Massacre back in ’80.

  13. 13
    M Tuttle says:

    I nearly broke out in laughter when I read this:

    “U.S. and Israeli officials believe Carter’s meetings …. could actually harm the Middle East peace process.”

    HARM the peace process? You mean the approach where you block the borders and starve the Palestians until they love you?

    The current ‘peace process’ is a farce. Bush’s third-grade approach to ‘negotiation’ is the same in every situation–the other side has to agree to your terms before discussion begins.

    The last real success in bringing peace to the Middle East was when Carter helped Egypt and Isreal sign a Peace Treaty. Here’s hoping a lightbulb turns on in the the neo-conservatives cave.

  14. 14

    Jeez John.. We labled these people Terrorists, and you know that we aren’t allowed to talk to Terrorists because they are “bad people”. And if we did talk to them we might reach some kind of understanding and they might decide to not blow people up, then the global war on terror aka “The long war” will be over in what? 7 short years, and as we all know 7 years is not a “long war” (Now the 100 years war, wow, lookout) And that would make Geoge Bush a liar, and we all know George Bush would never lie to the American people. So how could we possible think about trying to understand terrorists now and possibly shortening the long war? And lets not forget that John McCain wants to be at war for at least another 100 years (Now he’s a man who “gets” the concept of the long war). So we cant possilby think about ending GWOT anytime soon….

  15. 15
    Redhand says:

    Michael:

    I may get “trolled” for this comment, but the Constitution (yes, I know, if only Bush knew he has no business ignoring it) confers responsibility for the conduct of foreign affairs jointly on the Executive and the Congress: Foreign Policy Roles of the President and Congress. It doesn’t assign any foreign policy role to former Presidents. I think what pisses people off about Jimmah is that as a former President he has no proper business appearing to negotiate on behalf of the United States.

    Of course there is the “private citizen” counter-argument, but I doubt that the Founding Fathers would be impressed by it. I know I’m not, at least when it come to someone who once had the power trying to exercise it again.

    Also, candidly, I think Carter is an anti-Semite. The furor over his Israel: Peace, Not Apartheid, with the many staff resignation that resulted from its publication, makes him less than an “honest broker” IMHO.

  16. 16
    Wilfred says:

    Also, candidly, I think Carter is an anti-Semite.

    Ah, that’s more like it.

  17. 17

    I agree with Conservatively Liberal.

    There is always the same cycle…Israel demands that the Palestinians cease their attacks…Palestinians attempt to reign in their militants…short period of tense calm…Palestinian militant comes out of hiding…Israeli gunship blows him and his family up in their car…Palestinians freak out and stage attacks…Israeli’s say, “See, we told you they were terrorists.”

  18. 18
    Napoleon says:

    Carter was on NPR this morning and he says that in all his talks with the State Department they did not once raise any objections as to what he planned to do.

    Didn’t Israel ask Carter to pass along a message? The foreign minister or someone?

    That has been reported in the press and Carter spoke about it some this morning.

    i have a theory. let me share it with you: people who hate Democrats will find a way to get upset over anything a Democrat does.

    What surprises me is that not only does it appear that may have not figured that out, but how it is literally the Achiles Heel of the Republicans. The easiest way to get them to do something stupid (which they do all the time, its just that the Dems are poor at taking advantage) is to set up a situation where they reflexively take an opposite position to the Dems. The best example of this is global climate change. The very fact that Gore is the Dem out front on it petty much assures that even if Jesus Christ appeared in the sky and said that Gore is right they would still pretend that it doesn’t exist. Polls show something like 85% of the population believes climate change is manmade, and yet the right can’t help but put themselves on the wrong end of the issue because they can’t stand the idea of ever agreeing with Gore.

  19. 19
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    Also, candidly, I think Carter is an anti-Semite.

    Since the State of Israel can do no wrong, any criticism of its policies must, by definition, be driven by anti-Semitism.

  20. 20
    Svensker says:

    Also, candidly, I think Carter is an anti-Semite.

    That is malicious hooey. If anyone truly exemplifies a humble Christian attitude of “love thy neighbor as thyself” it is Jimmy Carter.

  21. 21
    jack fate says:

    Love him or hate him, Jimmy Carter’s got a far better Middle East résumé than any of the clowns condemning him (who, in my opinion, only want to see him fail because he might achieve something where their own heroes have failed miserably.)

    Right on.

    Also, candidly, I think Carter is an anti-Semite. The furor over his Israel: Peace, Not Apartheid, with the many staff resignation that resulted from its publication, makes him less than an “honest broker” IMHO.

    Did you read the book? Or any of his other books? Anti-Semitism accusations seem to only come from people hung up on one poorly worded sentence, which was corrected and effusely apologized for (I’d like to see the PNAC war criminals apologize for advocating the foreign policy catastrophies they openly cheerleaded for, but we know that will never happen) or people who have never read a damn thing about Carter and who’s only information is based on the motivation Michael D. set forth above.

    Maybe if we had competent leadership that doesn’t view every adversary as a chance for a dick-waving contest, we wouldn’t need ex-Presidents going on private trips to actually talk to the people we’re in conflict with. However, there has historically been a place for ex-Presidents in diplomatic affairs and at least Carter is using his status to try to relieve a conflict, as opposed to George H. W. Bush who has used it to check on Carlyle Group investments in that bastion of peace and human rights known as Saudi Arabia.

  22. 22
    b. hussein canuckistani says:

    While Carter may not be constitutionally allowed to sign treaties on behalf of the United States, there is no prohibition on him acting as a negotiator between 2 foreign powers.
    I always thought he was a better president than you people ever gave him credit for.
    Even if he was History’s Greatest Monster.

  23. 23
    4tehlulz says:

    Anybody with any sense at all about Palestine knows that Hamas has become the legitimate – the only – voice of Palestinian nationalism.

    By default, really. I can’t imagine any organization that started off as collaborators an Israeli counterweight to the PLO being considered legitimate for long.

    Seriously, the Palestinians would be best served IMO if they abandoned Fatah and Hamas and founded a movement that owed nothing to Israel, the other Arab states, or Iran.

    Also, candidly, I think Carter is an anti-Semite.

    Also, candidly, I think you’re mentally retarded.

  24. 24
    Wilfred says:

    there is no prohibition on him acting as a negotiator between 2 foreign powers.

    Other than the fact that he’s a virulent anti-Semite who has dedicated his life to the destruction of Israel and all Jews everywhere, forever. And Israel is not a foreign power, it is our only ally in the war against terrorism. If it weren’t for Israel, Obama’s father’s paper would follow us home and fuck our women in their burqas on our countertops. Arabs don’t have countertops, they sit on the floor.

  25. 25
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    The Bush administration is more than willing to negotiate with anyone as long as they:

    A)Concede their main points in advance.
    B)Give up any leverage.

    Once A & B are accomplished it’s right to the photo op. Hamas, Hezbollah, and others have only themselves to blame for not acceding to those simple conditions.

  26. 26
    timb says:

    Still, overall a fair comment from Redhand. To address it, Carter is not making foreign policy. Nothing he agrees to binds the United States to his word or any agreement.

    As far as being an Anti-Semite is concerned, Jimmy is interested in peace. Is he anti-Korean because he went to North Korea? Of course not. His instincts for peace brokered the only lasting lasting peace in the region. Is he always right? Of course not, and, while the title of his book was inflammatory, the idea that Israel shouldn’t bully its neighbors and the Palestinians shouldn’t be allowed to blow up pizza parlors is pretty equitable.

    Frankly, Israel’s status as the Middle East’s only democracy, the United States’s staunchest ally, and the historical wrongs done them does not give them license to oppress Palestinians. As the old saying goes, “two wrongs don’t make a right, but three lefts do.” US policy should be encouraging the Israelis to make the three lefts and avoid the two wrongs.

  27. 27
    Zifnab says:

    Carter was on NPR this morning and he says that in all his talks with the State Department they did not once raise any objections as to what he planned to do.

    Yes, but we all know their MO. Condemn everything Carter is doing until results begin to appear, then sweep in and try to take credit as publicly as possible while cutting back room deals for every GOP flunkie with skin in the game.

    Given the Bush policy of eternal war in the Middle East, why would anyone want State Department blessings? I’d almost prefer if they objected. Then we’d know we were doing something right.

  28. 28
    tas says:

    Redhand:

    Also, candidly, I think Carter is an anti-Semite. The furor over his Israel: Peace, Not Apartheid, with the many staff resignation that resulted from its publication, makes him less than an “honest broker” IMHO.

    Have you read Palestine: Peace, Not Apartheid? If so (which I doubt), I’d like you to point out to me what parts are anti-semitic. I don’t want to hear about reactions to the book from other people — like those people are somehow non-biased actors! — I want to hear where you think Carter’s book goes wrong.

  29. 29
    SteveIL says:

    It’s so easy for leftists to become useful idiots, just like their anti-Semitic hero, Jimmah Carter.

    Look, there’s no doubt that Hamas is a terrorist organization. But cutting them off altogether doesn’t seem to be working. And remember, they were elected, so no matter what your feelings are about them, they have to be part of the process. So far, the policies of the US and Israel don’t seem to be working, and if someone is trying something different, I’m all for that.

    No, Hamas doesn’t have to be part of the process. In fact, they shouldn’t be part of any process. They were “elected” on a platform of making war on Israel, and violently taking over Palestinian politics; these are the policies of Hamas, and they have done both. Maybe it might be useful for Hamas to try something different…you know…peace.

    As far as Jimmah, maybe it’s time to put him in prison for the maximum three years. Or better yet, RICO his corrupt Carter center and seize it’s assets. Because it is nothing more than a corrupt organization.

  30. 30
    rachel says:

    Tsk! Don’t you get it? The idea that Israel should not be allowed to oppress its neighbors is anti-Semitic. It’s like how if you don’t allow our government to spy on us and kidnap and torture whoever they want, al Qaeda has won.

  31. 31
    Wilfred says:

    I don’t want to hear about reactions to the book from other people—like those people are somehow non-biased actors!

    Well here’s a non-biased actor:

    Indeed there is Apartheid in Israel

    A new order issued by the GOC Central command bans the conveyance of Palestinians in Israeli vehicles. Such a blatant violation of the right to travel joins the long list of humans rights violations carried out by Israel in the [Occupied] Territories.

    by Shulamit Aloni

    Jewish self-righteousness is taken for granted among ourselves to such an extent that we fail to see what’s right in front of our eyes. It’s simply inconceivable that the ultimate victims, the Jews, can carry out evil deeds. Nevertheless, the state of Israel practises its own, quite
    violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population.

    The US Jewish Establishment’s onslaught on former President Jimmy Carter is based on him daring to tell the truth which is known to all: through its army, the government of Israel practises a brutal form of Apartheid in the territory it occupies. Its army has turned every Palestinian village and town into a fenced-in, or blocked-in, detention camp. All
    this is done in order to keep an eye on the population’s movements and to make its life difficult. Israel even imposes a total curfew whenever the settlers, who have illegally usurped the Palestinians’ land,celebrate their holidays or conduct their parades.

    The article was written by Former Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni

  32. 32
    joe says:

    Jimmy Carter’s diplomacy removed the greatest threat that has ever faced Israel: the possibility of a military invasion by Egypt.

    For a guy who has dedicated his life to the destruction of Israel and all Jews everywhere, forever, what would seem to be a bit of a misstep.

    And Israel is not a foreign power And there we have it.

  33. 33
    w vincentz says:

    In my view, Jimmy Carter is a man that implements his beliefs through actions. He is a true Christian.
    It is written in Matthew 5:9, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”
    I applaud his efforts.

  34. 34
    Librarian says:

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    I’m not sure whose quote that is, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Franklin. For one thing, it just doesn’t sound like it’s from the 18th century, it just sounds too 20th century. I’m not even sure that the modern concept of “insanity” existed back then.

  35. 35
    Pb says:

    Keep up the good work, President Carter; at least someone still understands diplomacy…

  36. 36

    Jimmy Carter talks the talk and walks the walk.

  37. 37
    Pb says:

    Librarian,

    You’re right; see here, it was Rita Mae Brown in the 1980s.

  38. 38
    PK says:

    The IRA was a terrorist organization too. I believe the Brits made peace with them.
    If you are not going to make peace with your enemies who are you going to make it with-your friends?

  39. 39
    joe says:

    BTW, everybody understands that this is a good-cop-bad-cop act, right?

    Oh, we in the State Department are horrified – horrified! – that Jimmy Carter is keeping a back-channel open. We absolutely hate that sort of thing.

    And also, there’s not way Jimmy Carter is going to be debriefed about his trip by State.

    Yeah, and one more thing: there are no messages going back and forth that the parties cannot transmit through official channels. None. At all. That’s totally not how this works.

  40. 40

    There’s no way in hell that Israel didn’t approve of Carter’s meetings.

    Exactly.

  41. 41
    chopper says:

    Since the State of Israel can do no wrong, any criticism of its policies must, by definition, be driven by anti-Semitism.

    see, here’s the problem. the state of israel can do no wrong and all the shit over there is the palestinians’ fault.

    conversely, the palestinians can do no wrong and all the shit over there is israel’s fault.

  42. 42
    Napoleon says:

    I’m not sure whose quote that is, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Franklin. For one thing, it just doesn’t sound like it’s from the 18th century, it just sounds too 20th century. I’m not even sure that the modern concept of “insanity” existed back then.

    I thought it was Einstein.

  43. 43
    ThymeZone says:

    So far, the policies of the US and Israel don’t seem to be working

    This may be the understatement of the Modern Age.

    The beauty part is, these policies are protected from challenge by a fierce, unyielding lobby and by dogmatic and slavish insistence that they be followed without question.

    All of it backed up by superstition and delusion, supporting the idea — held on both sides of any conflict in the region — that God himself favors one of the adversaries over the other.

    At least Carter as the sense and the guts to challenge this insane situation.

  44. 44

    Maybe after negotiating with Hamas, Carter can mosey on down to Sadr City and Basra. Looks like our troops are heading into the shadow of the Valley of Death.

  45. 45
    Napoleon says:

    Never mind, I stand corrected,

  46. 46
    Wilfred says:

    conversely, the palestinians can do no wrong and all the shit over there is israel’s fault.

    Palestinians do not occupy Israel, asshole.

  47. 47

    Or was it the Valley of the Shadow of Death? It’s been awhile. Anyway, my rod and my staff shall accompany me. Or was it comfort me?

  48. 48
    Wilfred says:

    The IRA was a terrorist organization too. I believe the Brits made peace with them.

    Ho, ho, keeping in mind that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization because it bombed the Marine barracks in Lebanon, this is even better:

    The King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bomb attack against the British Mandate government of Palestine and its armed forces by members of the Irgun, a militant Zionist organization, which was led at the time by Menachem Begin, a future Prime Minister of Israel.

    Members of the Irgun, commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi [1] and dressed as Arabs and as the Hotel’s distinctive Sudanese waiters, planted a bomb in the basement of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, part of which was being used as the base for the Mandate Secretariat, the British military headquarters and a branch of the police Criminal Investigation Division. The ensuing explosion caused the collapse of the south-western corner of the southern wing of the hotel. 91 people were killed, most of them staff of the secretariat and the hotel: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 others. Around 45 people were injured. Some of the deaths and injuries occurred in the road outside the hotel and in adjacent buildings.

    The terrorist Menachem Begin later got the Nobel Peace Prize. Go figure.

  49. 49
    ThymeZone says:

    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    Albert Einstein, (attributed)
    US (German-born) physicist (1879 – 1955)

  50. 50
    chopper says:

    Palestinians do not occupy Israel, asshole.

    did a jew piss in your wheaties this morning? or does it just really piss you off when someone points out that backers of both sides in this conflict are full of the ‘X are the guys really at fault here’ attitude?

    The terrorist Menachem Begin later got the Nobel Peace Prize. Go figure.

    and sadat and arafat. those three geniuses really demonstrated the value of the nobel, eh?

  51. 51
    Jose Padilla says:

    Yeah, Hamas is a terrorist organization, but it was legitimately elected by the Palestinians. The Stern Gang and the Irgun were also terrorist organizations, but we talk to Israel.

  52. 52
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    The line ‘Carter is an anti-semite’ is only uttered by someone who is proud of their ignorance and not afraid to show it. Carter is not an anti-semite, and if you even read the foreword to his book, Palestine: Peace, Not Apartheid, you would understand where he is coming from.

    The conditions that Bush has set for negotiations is specifically designed to unfairly place all of the blame for failure to negotiate on the Palestinians (or the Iranians or anyone else for that matter). From that position, it is easy to say ‘See, they only want to kill Israelis!’ and then go on with your business as if they don’t exist.

    I can’t remember how many times things quieted down over there, and the Palestinians keeping the calm and trying to get to a point of negotiation. Israel finds a ‘target’, kills them and usually their family, or at least they level their home, and then the fight is back on. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    I was sick when I found out that in some cases Israeli soldiers will not enter Palestinian homes by the door because they claim they get shot at, so they blast their way in to homes by blowing a hole through the side of the house or using a tank to punch holes in it.

    Carter’s book details his positions and gives his reasoning for them in a clear and concise manner. It is a sad accounting of the history behind the problems and the lack of commitment on the part of Israel. He recognizes that some of the problems faced by Israel are of their own making, but pointing that out somehow makes him an anti-semite.

    My Mom always told me that it takes two to tango, and if Israel were to be believed then the Palestinians have been dancing alone for years. In their eyes, nothing is the fault of Israel. Until they recognize that they are a part of the problem, nothing is ever going to get solved over there.

    As far as negotiation goes, one thing Bill Clinton did right was not handing the spy, Johnathan Pollard, over to Israel when they tried to tie his release in with a deal to recognize the Palestinians. Clinton knew that Netanyahu would break any agreement at their leisure, and then we would be out a traitor to our country. Clinton did not fall for it and I will give him credit for that.

    Israel has only one friend, Israel. They don’t trust anyone else to do what is right for them, and that is the problem. They think everything they do is right, and everyone else is wrong. Until that mindset changes, forget it.

  53. 53
    chopper says:

    lehi and the irgun were a bunch of terrorist douchebags all right. then again, they were active 50 years ago. if you want to talk about terrorist organizations from 5 decades past that’s cool but i don’t know how much they compare to the current elected government of the palestinian territories.

    hell, the KKK was a big terrorist organization in america 50+ years ago as well. how that should reflect on our relations with foreign powers i’m not sure.

  54. 54
    bernarda says:

    Jose Padilla, I was going to say that but you beat me. Israel was created by terrorists like Begin, Shamir, Ben Gurion.

    So naturally the Palestinians say, if if worked for them, why not us.

  55. 55
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    hell, the KKK was a big terrorist organization in america 50+ years ago as well. how that should reflect on our relations with foreign powers i’m not sure.

    Our relationship with foreign powers, it doesn’t matter. Our relationship to movement conservatives, the ideological heirs to Klan fascism– well, it does illuminate them for what they are, doesn’t it?

    But that’s thread-jacking, and I wish not to be accused thereof.

  56. 56
    benjoya says:

    good comments all, but no one mentions that a clear majority of israelis want to talk to hamas. so anyone who doesn’t want to talk to hamas is ignoring the will of the israeli people, ergo they must be a anti-semite. gee, that was easy.

  57. 57

    […] Update: Beyond this being covered in the traditional media, just to embarrass me he said, when the new neighbor was concerned that some of my leftover boards were eroding onto their land another neighbor helped us find the surveyors pins. That didn’t make the news either. If he had shot my sorry ass, that would have been news, even though it wouldn’t necessarily have surprised anyone. […]

  58. 58
    The Other Steve says:

    Sometimes violence works. That’s the lesson that has come out of that region.

    Anyway, Carter is just talking with them. He has no authority to act. He’s just trying to mediate a discussion.

    This outrage, America didn’t used to suffer from it. It’s a holdover from the neocons. In Reagan’s day the same people yelled and screamed because Saint Ron dared to speak with Gorbachev.

    I don’t understand it. Just talking to someone isn’t wrong. Sheesh.

    The only negative point I will make, is that Carter is naive and trustworthy. He tends to believe someone at their word, even when they have a history of breaking their word. That was his problem in office.

    But again, he’s not in any position to dictate policy, so let others decide if the words spoken are not to be trusted.

  59. 59
    The Other Steve says:

    good comments all, but no one mentions that a clear majority of israelis want to talk to hamas. so anyone who doesn’t want to talk to hamas is ignoring the will of the israeli people, ergo they must be a anti-semite. gee, that was easy.

    I believe the phrase is self-hating jew.

  60. 60
    chopper says:

    Jose Padilla, I was going to say that but you beat me. Israel was created by terrorists like Begin, Shamir, Ben Gurion.

    So naturally the Palestinians say, if if worked for them, why not us.

    that’s what makes it so hard.

    thing you have to remember, though, is that once israel had a government guys like ben gurion and begin dropped the guns and became politicians.

    i wish we’d see that from the palestinian side, but then again back when israel was founded there was a definitive war and internationally-recognized ceasefire. the dust settled, so to speak, giving the israelis time and the opportunity to roll over into a legitimate governing system. the constant struggle and tension between the israelis and palestinians affords the palestinian side no chance to do so, although it would be a question as to whether or not hamas would actually drop their guns even if they had the chance.

  61. 61
    chopper says:

    I believe the phrase is self-hating jew.

    or, ‘asshole’.

  62. 62
    Wilfred says:

    The problem isn’t Israelis but rather the ultra-religious sub-set that is the driving force behind the occupation and thus the accompanying abuse of Palestinians. Like Christians and Muslims, the Jews have their own fanatics. Just like them, a small group of zealots manages to punch way above its political weight.

    The political alliance of the Likud with ultra-orthodox parties is what fuels the occupation. The real problem is in the US, where the only voices ever heard are from the Likud/Religous bloc. The Israeli left is NEVER heard in the mainstream US press; if it was, it would receive the same treatment that the American left receives.

  63. 63
    The Other Steve says:

    i wish we’d see that from the palestinian side, but then again back when israel was founded there was a definitive war and internationally-recognized ceasefire. the dust settled, so to speak, giving the israelis time and the opportunity to roll over into a legitimate governing system. the constant struggle and tension between the israelis and palestinians affords the palestinian side no chance to do so, although it would be a question as to whether or not hamas would actually drop their guns even if they had the chance.

    They go back and forth. The minute one side cools down, the otherside launches an attack, either militarily, or rhetorically.

    It’s in the interests of some that the violence continue, as it’s extremely profitable. On both sides.

  64. 64
    horatius says:

    What these clowns don’t realize is that Jimmy Carter is the most popular ex-president outside America. Yes, even more popular than Bubba or even Saint Ronnie.

  65. 65
    rachel says:

    The enemy of extremist is not the extremist on the other side; it’s the moderate on his own.

  66. 66
    chopper says:

    the ultra-religious sub-set that is the driving force behind the occupation

    while the haredi blocs in the knesset have more influence than they should have, likud is, and has always been, plenty crazy enough without their help.

  67. 67
    chopper says:

    It’s in the interests of some that the violence continue, as it’s extremely profitable. On both sides.

    the real leadership of hamas knows this. they aint stupid. if it was better for them to drop their guns they’d do it.

    problem is, they may be in charge but hamas is chock-full of foot soldiers who are just plain crazy. so not only is it in hamas’s interest to keep the violence going, there’s not really any way that even the leadership of hamas could do anything about stopping it if they tried.

  68. 68
    Incertus says:

    Why shouldn’t Carter be talking to Hamas? Are they really any different from Fatah 20 years ago? They’re the legitimately elected government of the Palestinian Authority, even if we don’t like it.

  69. 69
    MJ says:

    What you people don’t understand or choose to ignore is that Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel. They are for a one state solution and that doesn’t include the Jews.

  70. 70
    Zifnab says:

    The political alliance of the Likud with ultra-orthodox parties is what fuels the occupation. The real problem is in the US, where the only voices ever heard are from the Likud/Religous bloc. The Israeli left is NEVER heard in the mainstream US press; if it was, it would receive the same treatment that the American left receives.

    The Israeli Right-Wing, much like the American Right Wing, has a great deal of the land and money in Israel. So it’s no surprise that when Palestinians start firing rockets into their seized farms and former residences, now possessed by Israeli hard-liners, its the hard-liners who cry the loudest and push the hardest for retaliation.

    We saw this shit back in South Africa twenty or thirty years ago. All the rich white land owners who got attacked by black insurgents pushed the hardest for segregation and the police state. In both cases, its the old rich whities who have the most to lose. The Israeli middle class doesn’t give a flying fart about farmland in the Gaza Strip. They’re going to pay the same for a loaf of bread grown by a Palestinian as they are if its grown by a Jew. And they don’t reap any additional benefit from closed borders and rocket strikes and tanks in the streets than their Palestinian neighbors.

    It is no surprise that Olmert has an approval rating in the single digits. His policy positions couldn’t be farther from the will of the people.

  71. 71
    benjoya says:

    What you people [> 60 of israelis] don’t understand or choose to ignore…

    this coming from the israeli minority, i assume

  72. 72
    chopper says:

    What you people don’t understand or choose to ignore is that Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel. They are for a one state solution and that doesn’t include the Jews.

    your average hamas member isn’t interested in peace with israel at all. then again, carter isnt talking to your average hamas member, he’s talking to the leadership which is interested in anything that’s beneficial to them.

    what remains to be seen is whether any beneficial decision by hamas’s leadership would end up actually going anywhere. personally i’m cynical. when you create a rabid army of blind supporters who want to push the jews into the sea its kinda hard to turn around and go ‘hey guys, we’re kinda cool with the jews now’.

  73. 73
    MJ says:

    this coming from the israeli minority, i assume

    The Israeli minority? You must be reading the Hamas propaganda in Obama’s church bulletin and also believe the Jews are creating a smart bomb to kill the Arabs and blacks.

  74. 74
    Martin says:

    Jimmy Carter is one of our better (ex) presidents.

    Actually, ignoring the meaning of ‘better’, I think he’s the only president I can think of that has been as impactful after the office than during it. I won’t defend his time in office, though. Our best presidents presided over terrible times, and Carter just never got the good flowing from the bad and that’s what we need a President to do. He’s as good a person as we make in this country, however.

    And Sue Myrick should be recalled for suggesting a former President have his passport revoked. Fuck her.

  75. 75
    MJ says:

    when you create a rabid army of blind supporters who want to push the jews into the sea its kinda hard to turn around and go ‘hey guys, we’re kinda cool with the jews now’.

    You are right, this Hamas MP is not interested in peace. He even wants to conquer Rome. Well Rome is just for starters actually.

  76. 76
    MLE says:

    To everyone who disapproves of Carter’s actions, I refer you to this article.

  77. 77
    4tehlulz says:

    The Israeli minority? You must be reading the Hamas propaganda in Obama’s church bulletin and also believe the Jews are creating a smart bomb to kill the Arabs and blacks.

    7/10

  78. 78
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    What you people don’t understand or choose to ignore is that Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel. They are for a one state solution and that doesn’t include the Jews.

    Oh please.

    I suppose Umkhonto we Sizwe was only interested in a one state solution with no Afrikaners, either; but things didn’t turn out that way, did they?

    What Hamas is interested in is exactly the same thing the ANC was interested in, and ultimately settled for:

    Justice.

  79. 79
    MJ says:

    They are looking for more then what you consider justice Ivan. Just look at what they are putting on TV for their children to watch. They are NOT telling the children that one day we will live in peace with the Jews. They are telling them that one day they will control all of it.

  80. 80
    liberal says:

    chopper wrote, …but i don’t know how much they compare to the current elected government of the palestinian territories.

    There is no elected government of the Palestinian territories.

    The most defining aspect of a government is sovereignty over a piece of land. Which the Palestinian “government” most definitely does not have.

  81. 81
    liberal says:

    Martin wrote, Actually, ignoring the meaning of ‘better’, I think he’s the only president I can think of that has been as impactful after the office than during it.

    Best ex-Prez was certainly John Quincy Adams:
    (1) “During the years 1836-37 Adams presented many petitions for the abolition of slavery and the slave trade in the District of Columbia and elsewhere to Congress. The Gag rule prevented discussion of slavery from 1836 to 1844, but he frequently managed to evade it by parliamentary skill.”
    (2) “In 1841, Adams represented the Amistad Africans in the Supreme Court of the United States and successfully argued that the Africans, who had seized control of a Spanish ship where they were being held as illegal slaves (as the international slave trade had been abolished, although slavery itself had not), should not be taken to Cuba but should be considered free and have the option to remain within the U.S. or return home as free people.”

  82. 82
    chopper says:

    there is definitely an elected government in the palestinian territories. it just isn’t a sovereign government from the point of view of international/constitutional law.

    that aside, i don’t get what that fact has to do with my point about the irgun and lehi.

  83. 83
    Delia says:

    good comments all, but no one mentions that a clear majority of israelis want to talk to hamas. so anyone who doesn’t want to talk to hamas is ignoring the will of the israeli people, ergo they must be a anti-semite. gee, that was easy.

    Actually, on his NPR interview this morning, Carter claimed the Israelis are already in secret negotiations with Hamas through the mediation of the Egyptians. He said this is actually quite well-known in the region. So everyone has to save face by saying that they won’t negotiate with their sworn enemy, no not ever, and curses on the head of anyone who does. But as a practical matter, people do. Everyone with a lick of sense, that is.

  84. 84
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    They are looking for more then what you consider justice Ivan.

    And if Israel were to have actually negotiated in good faith (see, for instance, the offer from the Saudis for complete normalization of relations in exchange for Israel returning to its pre-1967 borders {more or less}), we wouldn’t be having this discussion now, would we?

    They are NOT telling the children that one day we will live in peace with the Jews.

    And why should they do that, when it is clear that Israel is not interested in peace with them?

  85. 85
    Soylent Green says:

    According to Wilfred, because I was born into the Christian/Zionist Axis, that makes me a born liar. So y’all best not believe a word I say. Wilfred is clearly an objective critic of Israel’s policies whose views are not informed in the least by a fierce hatred of the place and its citizens and its defenders in the U.S.

    I respect and admire Jimmy Carter and his life’s work and by no means consider him an anti-semite. I applaud his efforts to speak to the Hamas leadership just as I look forward to Obama sitting down with all recognized leaders.

    That said, there is a key reason why the reported Hamas acceptance of a two-state solution will go nowhere: the insistence on a right of return to Israel proper for Palestinians who were displaced in 1948. That is an absolute dealbreaker. Work out all the boundary, water, and access disputes and you still have nothing if right of return is not taken off the table. You can cry about this injustice all you want, but I don’t hear anyone crying about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were forced out of their homes in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, and Iraq when Israel was established.

    Right of return is code for the destruction of Israel, which is and has been the goal all along.

    If you think the Jews have no claim to Palestine and wish we could move them all to Montana (or to Antarctica if you are not as charitable), then pack your bags, because the 300 million Americans who are not Native Americans have a less legitimate claim to the ground under their feet.

    If you are incensed by the disproportionate response of the Israelis to missile attacks by Hamas, consider for a moment what would happen if people in Tijuana were routinely lobbing missiles into San Diego. The response of the U.S. military would be a hell of a lot bloodier and reckless than what the Israelis do in Gaza. If you think otherwise you are deluded. I don’t think it matters what the Israelis do or restrain themselves from doing in response to those attacks. The militants who want them dead are going to keep them up regardless. I wish Israel could be more careful about collateral damage, but it should be noted that the American military has killed many more Arab civilians, wantonly so, than have the Israelis. Do we get a pass and the Israelis get only condemnation?

    Solutions for the West Bank are not solutions for Gaza. What I want to see happen in the West Bank is for Israel to abandon almost every one of the settlements on Arab land (and to tell the bible-thumping zeolots who built them to go suck a kosher egg), to move its security wall back closer to the Green Line (although not all the way, depending on certain security needs), to end its occupation, and to forge agreements with the PA regarding the Palestinians’ essential needs. The Palestinians will need to make concessions in turn.

    It would help also if they built a highway between the WB and Gaza to provide full access between them.

    If Americans lived their daily lives with the ever-present fear of getting blown to bits, 24-7, by someone passing in the street, their treatment of the people posing this threat would make the Israeli response to Hamas and al-Aqsa martyrs and the rest look like models of restraint. American willingness to make peace with this enemy would be nonexistent. So get off your high horse, lefties.

  86. 86
    gypsy howell says:

    The Israeli left is NEVER heard in the mainstream US press; if it was, it would receive the same treatment that the American left receives.

    It would receive the same treatment? I think you mean it IS receiving the same treatment.

  87. 87
    chopper says:

    [hamas is] looking for more then what you consider justice Ivan.

    And if Israel were to have actually negotiated in good faith (see, for instance, the offer from the Saudis for complete normalization of relations in exchange for Israel returning to its pre-1967 borders {more or less}), we wouldn’t be having this discussion now, would we?

    what, the saudi plan that hamas’s leadership refused to back? so much for ‘justice’.

    its tangential anyways, whether or not israel negotiates in good faith means nothing regarding what his point was about what hamas wants. hamas’s current wish list includes ‘justice’ only if you define ‘justice’ as ‘destroying israel and pushing the jews into the sea’. if that’s what you call ‘justice’ then you’re pretty screwy.

  88. 88
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    its tangential anyways, whether or not israel negotiates in good faith means nothing regarding what his point was about what hamas wants. hamas’s current wish list includes ‘justice’ only if you define ‘justice’ as ‘destroying israel and pushing the jews into the sea’. if that’s what you call ‘justice’ then you’re pretty screwy.

    Yeah. W’ev.

    Solutions for the West Bank are not solutions for Gaza. What I want to see happen in the West Bank is for Israel to abandon almost every one of the settlements on Arab land (and to tell the bible-thumping zeolots who built them to go suck a kosher egg), to move its security wall back closer to the Green Line (although not all the way, depending on certain security needs), to end its occupation, and to forge agreements with the PA regarding the Palestinians’ essential needs. The Palestinians will need to make concessions in turn.

    Would making peace be concession enough? I mean, what do the Palestinians have, other than their determination to fight on, to concede?

    (mind, I completely agree with you on this– thus my reference to the Saudi offer and its wording around the “right of return.” Yes, that’s right– the Saudi offer recognizes that and simply asks for a just solution, not a complete “right of return.” Sounds pretty fair to me, tho’ Chopper would likely disagree)

  89. 89
    MJ says:

    And if Israel were to have actually negotiated in good faith

    See the 2000 Clinton peace deal. Arafat was not interested in peace. Speaking of good faith, Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally and what did they get in return from Gaza? Almost daily rocket attacks. Is that what you call justice or good faith?

  90. 90
    Wilfred says:

    I respect and admire Jimmy Carter and his life’s work and by no means consider him an anti-semite. I applaud his efforts to speak to the Hamas leadership just as I look forward to Obama sitting down with all recognized leaders.

    No, you don’t. You’re one of the people who have done everything you can to smear Obama for having had the temerity to recognize the suffering of the Palestinian people, the same as your kind did to Carter in the past. You’re a liar because you resort to the standard American Jew dodge of “I deplore some of Israel’s actions in the Occupied territories but…”

    If even one thousandth of American Jews were telling the truth when they say something like that then the 40+ years occupation of Palestine would have ended long ago. But they don’t tell the truth. They attempt to manipulate American public opinion with things like this:

    I wish Israel could be more careful about collateral damage, but it should be noted that the American military has killed many more Arab civilians, wantonly so, than have the Israelis. Do we get a pass and the Israelis get only condemnation?

    Who gives ‘us’ a pass? Not me. I have condemned American murder of Arabs/Muslims at this site for ages. Where the fuck have you been? let me guess, applauding the deaths.

    The rest of the shit you spew is directly from the Aipac/megaphone talking points list. To wit:

    If you are incensed by the disproportionate response of the Israelis to missile attacks by Hamas, consider for a moment what would happen if people in Tijuana were routinely lobbing missiles into San Diego.

    Leaving aside the hyperbolic transformation of homemade Qassam rockets into ‘missiles’ and the absurd comparison between appropriated Gaza and San Diego we’re still left with the moral conflation of Israel and America. The rest is too ridiculous to even comment on.

    Lots of anti-Semites out today, however, not just me. Fire away.

  91. 91
    MJ says:

    They are NOT telling the children that one day we will live in peace with the Jews.

    And why should they do that, when it is clear that Israel is not interested in peace with them?

    What a lame excuse for teaching children to hate.

  92. 92
    Soylent Green says:

    let me guess, applauding the deaths.

  93. 93
    chopper says:

    Yeah. W’ev.

    well okay then.

    …thus my reference to the Saudi offer and its wording around the “right of return.” Yes, that’s right—the Saudi offer recognizes that and simply asks for a just solution, not a complete “right of return.” Sounds pretty fair to me, tho’ Chopper would likely disagree

    why would i disagree? i’ve always wanted to see a practical middle ground regarding right of return. i was glad to see even the saudis recognize that a full RoR would not be tenable.

  94. 94
    Soylent Green says:

    Let’s try that again.

    let me guess, applauding the deaths.

    Wilfred, what the fuck?

    You are the biggest pile of shit I have ever seen on this board, bar none. Congratulations, that’s a remarkable achievement.

    I said what I said as truthfully as I could.

    You’re one of the people who have done everything you can to smear Obama for having had the temerity to recognize the suffering of the Palestinian people.

    I have done nothing of the kind. Every post I have ever made on this board has been in support of Barack Obama.

    But you know all the answers, don’t you? You know all there is to know about people you don’t know.

    You are one hateful motherfucker.

    /end responding to this asshole

  95. 95
    Wilfred says:

    See the 2000 Clinton peace deal. Arafat was not interested in peace.

    This is the sort of stupidity that Israel Firsters are accustomed to getting away with. The Palestinian people rejected the Clinton offer because it did not address the things most important to Palestinians.

    Arafat, for at least the last 15 years of his life, was a puppet of the Israelis – his life depended on it. The money he stole from the Palestinian people was diverted to Paris where his ‘wife’ lived in splendor at the Hotel George V. Hamas doesn’t do things like that, hence the respect they enjoy amongst Palestinians. Abu Mazan is a pig in the Arafat mold, thus his creation by the Americans and Israelis.

    It took Arafat years to convince Palestinians to accept any form of two-state solution, which was not part of the original ideological formation of Palestinian nationalism. In any case, it was not and is not and never will be the function of Palestinians to win Nobel prizes for Americans or Israelis, or Egyptians, for that matter.

  96. 96
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    What a lame excuse for teaching children to hate.

    Oh, you’re so right. I mean, Palestinians have absolutely no reason to hate Israel, Israeli “settlers” and the IDF. Oh no, none at all. If they had any sense they’d teach their children that they deserve what Israel is doing to them.

  97. 97
    chopper says:

    You’re a liar because you resort to the standard American Jew dodge of “I deplore some of Israel’s actions in the Occupied territories but…”

    man, a jew really did piss in your wheaties this morning. maybe he was pissed cause it’s chametz.

    your lumping all american jews together is dishonest. most every american jew i know is pissed as shit at israel’s government as much as any of the rest of us are pissed about the bush administration’s foreign policy.

    hell, an old roommate of mine from DC spent 6 months in an israeli jail for his part in a demonstration against the israeli government in the west bank.

    fuck, man, we’re not all the fucking same.

  98. 98
    Wilfred says:

    I have done nothing of the kind. Every post I have ever made on this board has been in support of Barack Obama.

    Fuck off, tosser. You can dish it out but you can’t take it. Palestinian boys with slingshots stand up to Jews in tanks. You run like a coward when someone calls you a name.

  99. 99
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    fuck, man, we’re not all the fucking same.

    Yep. Now recognize that not all supporters of Hamas want to push all the Jews into the sea either; and that will help you work toward justice.

    (as an aside– howcome does Likud still have so much pull? Or are they as corrupt as our own Republicans?)

  100. 100
    chopper says:

    If they had any sense they’d teach their children that they deserve what Israel is doing to them.

    i for one am not saying that your average palestinian doesn’t have heck of reasons to be pissed as shit. but check out some palestinian textbooks and state television and the shit the leadership says. we’re not talking about mere hate here, we’re talking about full on advocation of genocide. its some serious bullshit up in here.

    i’m sorry dogg but you can’t justify away that kind of garbage unless you honestly think that israel truly deserves to be utterly destroyed.

  101. 101

    MJ Says:

    What you people don’t understand or choose to ignore is that Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel. They are for a one state solution and that doesn’t include the Jews.

    April 21st, 2008 at 10:29 am

    Please explain how the Palestinians would be able to destroy the Israelis and reclaim all the land for themselves?

  102. 102
    Wilfred says:

    your lumping all american jews together is dishonest. most every american jew i know is pissed as shit at israel’s government as much as any of the rest of us are pissed about the bush administration’s foreign policy.

    How about 80%, 75%? Pick a number. Likud policies are held in place by the support of people like Senator Lieberman, who enjoys the support of what, a small minority of American Jews? You sound sincere enough, try a little intellectual honesty of your own.

  103. 103
    chopper says:

    Yep. Now recognize that not all supporters of Hamas want to push all the Jews into the sea either;

    i never said all supporters of hamas agree with the basic platforms of the organization. there are plenty of regular palestinians who support hamas’s other efforts and would be just fine with a two-state solution.

    i’m not one of those people who see the middle east in manichaean terms.

    (as an aside—howcome does Likud still have so much pull? Or are they as corrupt as our own Republicans?)

    corruption, nationalism, the reasons aren’t that far different from the reasons the GOP still has such a sway. think about it, a large majority of americans are against the war in iraq yet there’s a decent chance we’ll end up electing a guy who has no issue at all with 1) staying there for 100 years and 2) invading iran. people are fuckin goofy.

  104. 104
    4tehlulz says:

    >>According to Wilfred, because I was born into the Christian/Zionist Axis, that makes me a born liar.

    You just figured this out? Man, you’re slow.

  105. 105
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    i for one am not saying that your average palestinian doesn’t have heck of reasons to be pissed as shit.

    Personalize it, Chopper.

    Imagine it was your brother who was killed by an IDF rocket attack. Imagine it was your cousin who was cut down for throwing rocks at an IDF tank. Imagine it was your father who was denied the ability to go to work because the IDF troopers at the checkpoint were feeling pissy.

    If you want peace, work for justice. Don’t bitch about how much they hate; they have good goddamn reason to hate.

    Give them justice, and their hate will fade. Just observe the Republic of South Africa’s experience with their truth and reconciliation commissions.

  106. 106
    Wilfred says:

    One more thing. I don’t give a fuck about American Jews, except when their blind support of Israel results in the continuation of criminally retarded policies that affect me. But things like this happened against Obama:

    Smear Campaign Against Obama Succeeding Among Jews
    By M.J. Rosenberg – January 24, 2008, 6:43AM

    A few weeks ago when I informed TPM readers about the hate campaign against Obama withing the Jewish community, I did not believe that it would succeed.

    Jews are too smart to fall for such obvious lies. Or so I thought.

    Now I read in the New York Jewish Week, the largest Jewish newspaper in the country, that the campaign is working, as intended. Jewish voters actually are buying into the “Obama is a secret Muslim” lie. It also appears that some Jewish organizations are involved in disseminating the smears. Incredibly, the recently retired Israeli ambassador to the United States has also jumped into the act with a column saying Obama should not be President. That is almost unprecedented. The goal, of course, is to defeat Obama in the Florida, New York and California primaries where Jewish voters are numerous.

    There are several things that stand out here but the most appalling is that Jews are as prejudiced against Muslims as they say that everyone is against them. And they have used that to hurt Obama’s campaign, now and in the general. That really pisses me off, so I’m not in the mood to hear lame complaints from Jews about anti-Semitism these days.

  107. 107
    Ivan Ivanovich Renko says:

    people are fuckin goofy.

    Fuckin’ amen to that.

  108. 108
    MJ says:

    The Palestinian people rejected the Clinton offer because it did not address the things most important to Palestinians.

    Yes it didn’t cover driving the Jews into the sea.

  109. 109
    chopper says:

    How about 80%, 75%? Pick a number.

    i’d say about 95% of the other jews i know are pissed at israel’s government and want a two-state solution like yesterday.

  110. 110
    MJ says:

    That really pisses me off, so I’m not in the mood to hear lame complaints from Jews about anti-Semitism these days.

    There is no real anti-Antisemitism, it is all just a Zionist ploy. (snark off)

    That’s what annoys the hell out of you doesn’t it?

  111. 111
    4tehlulz says:

    M.J. Rosenberg is a double agent for the AJC.

    I know this because of the secret coded message nestled in the last edition of the JTA.

  112. 112
    chopper says:

    If you want peace, work for justice. Don’t bitch about how much they hate; they have good goddamn reason to hate.

    i know they have a goddamn reason. some dude who’s wife is killed by an IDF bomb blowing up an apartment complex has a good reason to be pissed. and the israeli dude who’s wife is killed by a bus bombing or by some jerkoff blowing up a passover seder has a goddamn good reason to hate also.

    thing is, i can’t fucking justify either of em advocating fucking genocide and electing people who advocate genocide.

    how is it so hard to understand that i don’t think either side are blameless and all their actions justifiable? christ.

  113. 113
    MJ says:

    Please explain how the Palestinians would be able to destroy the Israelis and reclaim all the land for themselves?

    I don’t know how they would be able to do so but that is the propaganda Hamas is putting out there for the masses. (see my earlier links)

  114. 114
    Wilfred says:

    Yes it didn’t cover driving the Jews into the sea.

    Well, the Palestinians live in walled-in ghettos, you don’t seem to put out by that. You don’t know anything other than the fact that you have an opinion. Fine. Most Palestinians use an inflammatory rhetoric, it’s an Arabic trope. Many Palestinians want a one-state solution, which would mean the end of the Jewish state as a Jewish State, not the Jews. There’s a difference. The Likudniks want to create a Bantustan on the West Bank, they already have actually. Is that what you imagine when you think of a two state solution? Most Palestinians don’t want their children living like cattle.

  115. 115
    MJ says:

    4tehlulz how do I get a decoder ring?

  116. 116
    4tehlulz says:

    eBay, like everything else.

  117. 117
    MJ says:

    Well, the Palestinians live in walled-in ghettos, you don’t seem to put out by that. You don’t know anything other than the fact that you have an opinion. Fine. Most Palestinians use an inflammatory rhetoric, it’s an Arabic trope. Many Palestinians want a one-state solution, which would mean the end of the Jewish state as a Jewish State, not the Jews. There’s a difference. blockquote>

    LOL… where do you get this rhetoric from? I can tell you have never visited the West Bank.

  118. 118
    Wilfred says:

    That’s what annoys the hell out of you doesn’t it?

    People can read that link and think for themselves – the effort to undermine Obama is coming from the Jews – deal with it.
    In any case, you’re wasting your breath on me. I’m an old hand on the West Bank and G-d willing will be back in Ramallah by October.

    FWIW, For the less experienced, there are a lot of good examples of hasbarah here today – the commenter called Soylent Green is almost textbook.

  119. 119
    chopper says:

    Many Palestinians want a one-state solution, which would mean the end of the Jewish state as a Jewish State, not the Jews. There’s a difference.

    unfortunately, most palestinians vote into office people who advocate genocide against the jews. see also the aforementioned media etc etc.

    there are many palestinians who have their heads screwed on tight and just want the shit to stop, but i really wish they’d start throwing their weight around a bit more.

  120. 120
    chopper says:

    People can read that link and think for themselves – the effort to undermine Obama is coming from the Jews – deal with it.

    what do you mean, ‘coming from the jews’? what the shit is this? the effort to undermine obama is coming from the jews?

    its not some jewish conspiracy, dumbass, it’s coming from the GOP.

    and guess what, some jewish americans got fooled by it. OMG, you know what this proves? that american jews aren’t necessarily any smarter than the rest of america, who also have bought into this whole obama-is-a-secret-muslim shit.

    Jews are too smart to fall for such obvious lies. Or so I thought.

    oh noes! we’re not smarter than the rest just because we’re jewish!

  121. 121
    MJ says:

    Wilfred when they stop airing this hate filled crap on TV and teaching it to there children then there will be a chance for peace.

    if you watch the video Jews are blamed for starting WWII. He also says: “The Jews will not live under tranquility under our rule”

    So when you say:

    Many Palestinians want a one-state solution, which would mean the end of the Jewish state as a Jewish State, not the Jews. There’s a difference.

    There isn’t a difference.

  122. 122
    MJ says:

    People can read that link and think for themselves – the effort to undermine Obama is coming from the Jews – deal with it.

    LOL.. there you go another Jewish conspiracy. But you’re not anti-Semitic are you?

    You’re letting the hate show Wilfred. I bet you don’t give a rats ass about the Palestinians. It’s all just a cover for your hate.

    its not some jewish conspiracy, dumbass, it’s coming from the GOP.

    Did you forget Hillary?

  123. 123
    Wilfred says:

    its not some jewish conspiracy, dumbass, it’s coming from the GOP.

    This is beyond retarded: here shit for brains, read again:

    Incredibly, the recently retired Israeli ambassador to the United States has also jumped into the act with a column saying Obama should not be President.

    Ok, is that fucking clear now? Or has the US/Israel conflation so complete that is retired Israeli ambassador a GOP operative?

    The main point is that ‘Muslim’ is now a smear – it’s ok for Jews to not vote for Obama because he may be a Muslim. And there are few complaints about that.

    have you considered the implications of that?

  124. 124
    chopper says:

    there are a lot of good examples of hasbarah here today

    but there’s no PR on behalf of the palestinian side in this thread, nosiree.

  125. 125
    MJ says:

    Incredibly, the recently retired Israeli ambassador to the United States has also jumped into the act with a column saying Obama should not be President.

    I guess it just takes one Jew writing a column to constitute a conspiracy of ‘The Jews’.

  126. 126
    4tehlulz says:

    >>there’s no PR on behalf of the palestinian side in this thread

    I wouldn’t call Wilfred’s bleating pro-Palestinian PR.

  127. 127
    benjoya says:

    You must be reading the Hamas propaganda in Obama’s church bulletin and also believe the Jews are creating a smart bomb to kill the Arabs and blacks.

    wow, hamas publishes Ha’aretz now? Who knew?

    read the link, genius.

  128. 128
    Wilfred says:

    LOL.. there you go another Jewish conspiracy. But you’re not anti-Semitic are you?

    You really are one stupid motherfucker, aren’t you? I link to a respected moderately left site, to an article written by a Jew, complaining about how the Israeli Ambassador and others are working to either smear Obama or otherwise undermine him to Jews. And I’m an anti-Semite.

    A few weeks ago when I informed TPM readers about the hate campaign against Obama withing the Jewish community, I did not believe that it would succeed.

    I don’t have time for this stupidity. People can think and read for themselves. Who would object to that?

  129. 129
    chopper says:

    its not some jewish conspiracy, dumbass, it’s coming from the GOP.

    This is beyond retarded: here shit for brains, read again:

    Incredibly, the recently retired Israeli ambassador to the United States has also jumped into the act with a column saying Obama should not be President.

    so let me get this straight.

    the GOP pushes this stupid ‘obama is a secret muslim’ line.

    a bunch of americans get fooled by it, including a bunch of american jews.

    an israeli ambassador even gets fooled by it and writes an anti-obama column.

    therefore, “the effort to undermine Obama is coming from the Jews.”

    jesus, that’s the dumbest attempt at a jewish conspiracy theory i’ve ever fucking heard. and i’ve heard some doozies.

    fuck me, that’s idiotic.

    seriously, that’s retarded as shit. OMG, a jewish guy wrote a column! oh noes! that means the jooz are behind it!

  130. 130
    chopper says:

    christ you seriously can’t be this stupid. you can’t. someone this stupid wouldn’t be able to operate a computer. i refuse to believe that you’re this incredibly stupid. im-fucking-possible.

  131. 131
    4tehlulz says:

    >>christ you seriously can’t be this stupid.

    Wilfred’s an intellectual powerhouse compared to other TEH J00 haters on other boards — compared to 4chan, Wilfred’s practically Richard Wagner.

    Be happy with what you have.

  132. 132
    w vincentz says:

    A quick read of this thread just about covers it all.
    There’s “blaming”, “justification”, “rightious outrage”, “anger”…the whole nine yards.
    Seriously, President Carter understands how mediation happens and leads to conflict resolution. In a few words, it has much less to do with talking and much more to do with listening. Only therein can points of agreement be found and willingness to compromise to achieve those goals be arranged. Peace.

  133. 133
    chopper says:

    I guess it just takes one Jew writing a column to constitute a conspiracy of ‘The Jews’.

    what’s really funny is that when you look at it, all the dude’s column says is that he just doesn’t think obama would be as ‘good for israel’.

    big fucking deal. one jewish guy wrote a column. whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

    i got an anti-obama email from a sikh friend recently. oh noes! the effort to undermine obama is coming from the sikhs!

  134. 134
    Dug Jay says:

    This thread has inspired some comments over at another blog:

    For a contrary voew of all this, including Jimmy Carter’s trip, go waste a little time over at John Cole’s Balloon Juice. Over the last year or so, that place has turned into a veritable sewer of anti-Semitism. Poster after poster can only find fault with Israel’s actions, and can find a dozen excuses for terrorist actions on the part of Hamas and others. And by the way, BJ’ers don’t like to see the Palestinians and their kindred spirits labeled as “terrorists;” the preferable term is “freedom seeking nationalists.”

    I think they overstate the issue a little bit.

  135. 135
    4tehlulz says:

    >>oh noes! the effort to undermine obama is coming from the sikhs!

    They are part of the Christosikh/Zionist axis.

  136. 136
    chopper says:

    jesus, i just can’t get over this.

    the link wilfred provided says this:

    Now I read in the New York Jewish Week (link), the largest Jewish newspaper in the country, that the campaign is working, as intended. Jewish voters actually are buying into the “Obama is a secret Muslim” lie. It also appears that some Jewish organizations are involved in disseminating the smears (link). Incredibly, the recently retired Israeli ambassador to the United States has also jumped into the act with a column saying Obama should not be President (link)

    okay, the NY Jewish Week link says that obama’s campaign said “reports that we’ve received in the press indicate it has gotten traction in some portions of the Jewish community.”

    omg, a rumor that’s gotten some traction all throughout the US has also gotten some traction in some portions of the jewish community!

    the link for the statement “It also appears that some Jewish organizations are involved in disseminating the smears.” is to an article about a memo that doesn’t say one single thing about the secret-muslim rumor. at all. not. one. word. in fact, the article says this:

    As that date approaches, Obama has found himself at the center of a public debate about his personal associations, background and commitment to Israel. Earlier this week, the Chicago lawmaker responded to revived concerns about links between Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan and his pastor in Chicago, even as a number of Jewish senators and major Jewish organizations — including the American Jewish Committee — publicly denounced an email campaign spreading false accusations that he is secretly a Muslim. The editorial page of the staunchly conservative New York Sun newspaper recently defended the senator’s commitment to Israel.

    the last link is to the ambassador’s article, which merely opines that obama wouldn’t be the best candidate.

    and all this proves somehow that the effort to undermine obama is coming from the jews?

    seriously?

  137. 137
    Soylent Green says:

    There are several things that stand out here but the most appalling is that Jews are as prejudiced against Muslims as they say that everyone is against them.

    Wilhelm, you’ve got bigot tattooed on your forehead.

    I have known some Jews who hate Arabs (not all Muslims, just Arabs) in general. My brother is one of them. We have had many loud and bitter arguments about this. He is responding still, at 58, to the programming we both received as children. I threw off that programming, and have tried in my life to always remember that people are people everywhere and their aspirations essentially the same. I have known other Jews on the opposite end of the spectrum, troubled by the harshness of Israel’s reprisals and the endless cycle of violence in the ME. I have aligned with that group for the last 25 years, although I can admit to being conflicted about just what Israel should do in a given situation. I know others yet who don’t give any of this any thought, any more than other Americans. I’ve personally never lobbied for any outcome in the Middle East or belonged to any organization that does.

    All groups are made up of individuals and they don’t all march in lockstep. I don’t know how many Jews in America unquestionably support Israel’s hardnosed policies, but it’s far from all of them. Jewish voters have traditionally leaned strongly Democratic, although some have shifted in recent years as the perceived threat to Israel has intensified. Some may fall for that Obama smear, but hell, how many Jewish voters do you think there are? They constitute a very small segment of the population.

    I say they, not we, because I seldom identify myself as one, being an atheist with no interest in Jewish ritual or culture and no Jews among my current friends.

    But your statement above contains no qualifiers. It’s all Jews this and all Jews that. “They are prejudiced.” “They say that everyone is against them.” They they they.

    Obama’s message is that all Americans and by extension all the citizens of the world can and must find common cause and a better future by learning to listen to each other, instead of lining up behind the barricades and fighting the same old battles.

    Characterizing an entire ethnic group as only one thing, what your bigoted mind perceives them to be to support your political views, is the opposite of Obama’s message. You aren’t listening to anything I say, just spitting in my face.

    Telling you this is a waste of time, obviously, and I have wasted enough of it today.

    Your turn. “Liar liar liar.”

  138. 138
    MJ says:

    christ you seriously can’t be this stupid. you can’t.

    Yes he is!

  139. 139
    MJ says:

    read the link, genius.

    I followed the link. You must be imagining something that isn’t there.

  140. 140
    chopper says:

    This thread has inspired some comments over at another blog:

    For a contrary voew of all this…

    glad to know we’re a ‘contrary voew’. also, glad to know smart people who know how to spell are watching over us, keeping us in line.

  141. 141
    MJ says:

    Obama’s web site has been hacked. I bet Wifred blames it on the Jews.

  142. 142
    conumbdrum says:

    Come on now, everybody… GROUP HUG!

    Now there… don’t you feel better?

  143. 143
    liberal says:

    chopper wrote, there is definitely an elected government in the palestinian territories. it just isn’t a sovereign government from the point of view of international/constitutional law.

    No, it’s not a government from the point of view of the conventional definition of a government.

    that aside, i don’t get what that fact has to do with my point about the irgun and lehi.

    I’m simply pointing out that the Palestinian “government” is not a government.

  144. 144
    chopper says:

    what ‘conventional’ definition of a government are you speaking of?

    when the netherlands was occupied during WWII its government-in-exile wasn’t a government? when kuwait was occupied by iraq its government wasn’t a government?

  145. 145
    Wilfred says:

    I see the Jews have coalesced into their usual ‘accuse of everyone of being an anti-semite’ – the comfort charge of people faced with the reality that they have become the very thing they despised. Only it has lost its steam.

    Primo Levi once wrote that in the Palestinians, the Jews had finally found their Jews. he was right, and all the name calling and smarmy self-righteousness isn’t going to change that simple truth.

    and all this proves somehow that the effort to undermine obama is coming from the jews?

    I’ll tell you what means you stupid little shit. It means that ‘Muslim’ has become a sort of charge amongst Jews, enough to smear Obama, maybe enough to cost him the election. I asked you if you realized the implications of what was cited. You didn’t. Now I’ll show you.

    It was not American Muslims who resuscitated identity politics yet not one of the liberal jews on this site ever saw anything wrong with the use of the word Muslims as a smear. It was something to be denied, hidden, as if the fact of being a Muslim would somehow have legitimately eliminated Obama as a candidate with the Jewish community. It is his not being a Muslim that validates him. Is this not correct?

    That’s bigotry against Muslims as Muslims, but none of you could see it because you’re to busy accusing other people of bigots. It is perhaps the greatest lesson of this political campaign.

    Well, since I’m a Muslim you can call me Muslim, or any other word you think is a smear, and I’ll call you Jew. And all the venom reserved for Obama when people thought he might be a Muslim, I pass to you, Jew.

  146. 146
    MJ says:

    I see the Jews have coalesced into their usual ‘accuse of everyone of being an anti-semite’

    Not everyone, just you Wilfred.

  147. 147
    4tehlulz says:

    Wilfred says he’s a Muslim. That means he’s actually a Jew.

  148. 148
    chopper says:

    I see the Jews have coalesced into their usual ‘accuse of everyone of being an anti-semite’

    i see you’ve coalesced into your ‘take anything a jew does and act like it represents all of the jews’ thing. a jew writes an article? omg, it’s a movement!

    and all this proves somehow that the effort to undermine obama is coming from the jews?

    I’ll tell you what means you stupid little shit. It means that ‘Muslim’ has become a sort of charge amongst Jews, enough to smear Obama, maybe enough to cost him the election.

    its interesting that i pointed out that pretty much none of what the guy from TPM cited said what he said it did, yet you pointed to it as evidence that ‘the jews’ are the driving force behind these attacks on obama.

    i’ll repeat myself – this whole stupid rumor has gotten traction all over. shit, i’ve been asked if its true by democrats i know who aren’t jewish at all. the fact that some members of the jewish community got hoodwinked doesn’t mean anything about ‘the jews’ outside of the fact that a jew can get fooled just like any other american.

    you want to bitch about identity politics and america? that’s great. just don’t try to pin this shit on the jews, asshole. this isn’t some rumor that’s only being pushed or only being believed or was concocted in the jewish community. in fact, jewish leadership in america has come out hard against this rumor, as articles linked by the story you cited show.

    yet not one of the liberal jews on this site ever saw anything wrong with the use of the word Muslims as a smear.

    yeah, we loved the ‘obama is a secret muslim’ smear. you sure got our number. i even passed it around to my friends as authentic! all the years i’ve spent defending muslims against assholes who want to pin every bad thing ever on islam, all that down the fucking drain.

    i’ve never in my life accused anyone i’ve argued with of anti-semitism, even that prickjob who said that the reason mel gibson didn’t get an oscar nod for ‘apocalypto’ was due to a crazy-ass jewish conspiracy. and i’m not going to start now.

    but goddamn, are you a hateful, small man. and goddamn, are you a fucking idiot to boot.

  149. 149
    MJ says:

    Carter claims that Hamas said it was willing to recognize Israel. Hamas is saying they won’t recognize Israel. It’s so hard to tell who is lying between the two but my money is on Carter.

  150. 150
    Wilfred says:

    Come on, jew. Don’t get so pissed off. It shows anger and lack of self-control, lack of adab. I ask the question again, since you’re too stupid to read a simple declarative sentence:

    Is ‘Muslim’ a smear among members of the Jewish community? Doesn’t the article I linked to say exactly that?

    Of course it fucking does. Who gives a shit about you? The question is for the Jewish community – IS Muslim a intended and read as a smear by Jews? Yes or no?

  151. 151
    oh really says:

    John, you don’t understand because you hate America so much.

    So, slap on the flag pin, plaster your care with Support the Troops messages, and keep repeating to yourself “America good; everything else bad.” Soon, you’ll understand.

    Oh, sorry I left out a step: full frontal lobotomy.

  152. 152
    Wilfred says:

    years i’ve spent defending muslims against assholes who want to pin every bad thing ever on islam, all that down the fucking drain.

    Oh, the fucking melodrama. A lifetime of defending Islam all gone because of Wilfred the Muslim jew hater. Too funny, props to you, jew.

  153. 153
    tBone says:

    Of course it fucking does. Who gives a shit about you? The question is for the Jewish community – IS Muslim a intended and read as a smear by Jews? Yes or no?

    Why are you limiting this to the Jewish community? How about – is Muslim intended and read as a smear by a mouthbreathing segment of the American population (Jewish, gentile and otherwise)?

    The answer is yes.

    Breaking news: some people are fucking idiots. Film at 11.

    yet not one of the liberal jews on this site ever saw anything wrong with the use of the word Muslims as a smear.

    If that brush gets any broader, you’re going to have to use a swimming pool to hold the paint.

  154. 154
    TenguPhule says:

    Wilfred Says: Who gives a shit about you?

    And that folks, is enough Irony to put a man on Mars.

  155. 155
    TenguPhule says:

    If even one thousandth of American Jews were telling the truth when they say something like that then the 40+ years occupation of Palestine would have ended long ago.

    If Palistinians would stop torturing to death every Palistinian actually interested in peace, they’d be better off then they are now.

    Are you stupid fucks ready to accept Jews as citizens in ‘Palistine’? Are you willing to stop being assholes like the fucking Cuban Exiles about property that most of you weren’t even living on because most of you were born AFTER the clusterfuck wars of the region which your side LOST?

  156. 156
    TenguPhule says:

    Come on, jew. Don’t get so pissed off. It shows anger and lack of self-control, lack of adab.

    And these eternal victims wonder why nobody gives a shit about them.

    With enemies like Wilfred, Israel hardly needs Mossad.

  157. 157
    Wilfred says:

    I was wondering when you’d appear.

    are you stupid fucks ready to accept Jews as citizens in ‘Palistine’?

    Oh absolutely. In a one-state Palestine that is not a racist , apartheid Jewish state. The South Africa solution. You’ll have to fuck more and make more babies if you want political power – instead of sucking George Bush’s cock and draining American resources to pay for you. Man up for fuck’s sake and start taking care of yourself and paying your own bills.

    You must be shitting yourself at the prospect of Obama winning – Mossad indeed. I have a feeling that 16 fucking years of blank checks would come to an end and be replaced with – gasp! – a recognition that Palestinians are humans, too. Thus Hillary’s dog whistle calls to Jew voters – nuke Iran!

    Get ready for more pushback, asshole. It’s breaking out all over.

  158. 158
    Wilfred says:

    If that brush gets any broader, you’re going to have to use a swimming pool to hold the paint.

    Direct me to one comment or post by a Jew condemning the use of the word Muslim as a smear, one that challenges the legitimacy of Jewish voters using that ‘smear’ as a reason to not vote for Obama – a critique, in other words, and I’ll retract that brush. If you can’t, shove the brush up your ass and mind your own business.

  159. 159
    4ehlulz says:

    When did you stop beating your Jewish mother, Wilfred?

  160. 160
    4tehlulz says:

    When did you stop beating your Jewish mother Wilfred?

  161. 161
    chopper says:

    Come on, jew. Don’t get so pissed off. It shows anger and lack of self-control, lack of adab

    uh, you’ve been calling me an asshole and shit-for-brains all through this thread for merely having the gall to disagree with you. sack up and take some of your own medicine.

    I ask the question again, since you’re too stupid to read a simple declarative sentence:

    Is ‘Muslim’ a smear among members of the Jewish community? Doesn’t the article I linked to say exactly that?

    some parts of it, yeah. it’s also a smear among some parts of the christian community. and america in general. that’s why this smear got traction, not because of ‘the jews’, but because, well, this is fucking america. america is full of assholes of all stripes.

    why you choose to focus your hatred solely on the jewish population is beyond me. my sikh friend demonstrated that parts of the sikh population fell for it too, why don’t you lump all sikhs together and hate on them too? or christians? why do you reserve your hate just for america’s jewish community?

    The question is for the Jewish community – IS Muslim a intended and read as a smear by Jews? Yes or no?

    not the jews i know. shit, i wonder why my old jewish roommate spent all that time in jail on behalf of the palestinian cause if he thinks, like apparently all jews do, that ‘muslim’ is a bad word. all the time i’ve spent defending islam from idiotic right wingers intent on doing the same as you, lumping all of one group together due to the actions of a minority, that was all fake.

    oh, i know – maybe it’s because ‘the jews’ is not this monolithic bloc you think it is.

    if ‘muslim’ is such a big smear throughout the entire jewish community, then why did jewish leadership come out so hard against this smear? is it that they’re just being crafty?

  162. 162
    chopper says:

    “muslim” as a smear? this coming from a guy who’s been using the word ‘jew’ derisively throughout this entire thread.

    that’s the funniest part; you tell me i should refer to you as ‘muslim’ for the same reason you call me ‘jew’, out of some divisive belief in smearing the other guy.

    yet you are horrified at the thought of ‘muslim’ being used as a smear. ‘jew’, however, is just fine and dandy.

    jesus, what a victim complex!

    it’s all because you want the whole argument to break down into simple name calling and hating. you want people to refer to you mockingly as ‘muslim’ the way you refer to jews.

    that’s why you lump all jews together. you want ‘all the jews’ to all be as bad as you are, to be the sort of person that lumps all of one group together. you point to scant evidence, including a report that says the opposite of what you’re asserting, yet you continue to try to push this stereotype. but all the jews i know are not like you. i’m not like you.

    you aren’t actually interested in any sort of solution to the israeli/palestinian problem. you’re just interested in smearing your Other and portraying yourself the victim. saying it’s all the jews’ fault frees you of the intellectual baggage of having to actually consider a complicated political situation, rather it gives you the freedom to frame this whole situation in simplistic W-style manichaean terms so you don’t have to actually think, just hate on the people on the other side. it’s easier that way. blame the Other.

    that’s why you want me to lump all muslims together under some stereotype. that’s why you want me to refer to you derisively using ‘muslim’ as a smear. because you can’t be the ‘good guy’ in this scenario unless the jew is at least as bad as you are.

    problem is i could give a fuck if you’re a muslim or not. i don’t consider it a smear, i could give a fuck what religion you belong to. i don’t use the term ‘muslim’ to mockingly refer to you or anyone else.

  163. 163
    Wilfred says:

    if ‘muslim’ is such a big smear throughout the entire jewish community, then why did jewish leadership come out so hard against this smear?

    Here’s a letter that went out:

    January 15, 2008

    An Open Letter to the Jewish Community:

    As leaders of the Jewish community, none of whose organizations will endorse or oppose any candidate for President, we feel compelled to speak out against certain rhetoric and tactics in the current campaign that we find particularly abhorrent. Of particular concern, over the past several weeks, many in our community have received hateful emails that use falsehood and innuendo to mischaracterize Senator Barack Obama’s religious beliefs and who he is as a person.

    These tactics attempt to drive a wedge between our community and a presidential candidate based on despicable and false attacks and innuendo based on religion. We reject these efforts to manipulate members of our community into supporting or opposing candidates.

    Attempts of this sort to mislead and inflame voters should not be part of our political discourse and should be rebuffed by all who believe in our democracy. Jewish voters, like all voters, should support whichever candidate they believe would make the best president. We urge everyone to make that decision based on the factual records of these candidates, and nothing less.

    Sincerely,

    Rabbi Marvin Hier, Founder and Dean, Simon Wiesenthal Center

    Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Dean, Simon Wiesenthal Center

    William Daroff, Vice President, United Jewish Communities

    Nathan J. Diament, Director, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America

    Abraham Foxman, National Director, Anti-Defamation League

    Richard S. Gordon, President, American Jewish Congress

    David Harris, Executive Director, American Jewish Committee

    Rabbi David Saperstein, Director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism

    Phyllis Snyder, President, National Council of Jewish Women

    Hadar Susskind, Washington Director, Jewish Council for Public Affairs

    The simplest and best letter would have been:

    EVEN IF OBAMA IS A MUSLIM, SO FUCKING WHAT?

    In fairness, they do suggest such a thing at the end of their letter, whether they mean it or not is anybody’s guess but at least form has been observed. But the point is that Jews can be bigoted scumbags just everybody else.

    There is a place for all progressives to fight against bigotry and racism. Reactionary jews willing to elect Clinton or McCain for their collective promise to continue Israeli crimes against Palestinians are no better than Christian rapturists willing to destroy the world to hasten the return of Jesus. that is the Christian/Zionist axis I referred to earlier.

    If you’re sincere, try here

    There are many people pushing back against the Aipac/Kill the Muslims/Nuke Iran crowd, the ideological home of most of the jews here, who try to stifle debate with name calling and deflection. Other

  164. 164
    Soylent Green says:

    the Aipac/Kill the Muslims/Nuke Iran crowd, the ideological home of most of the jews here

    Wilfred, get your prescription renewed. Seriously. You are your own worst enemy.

  165. 165
    chopper says:

    The simplest and best letter would have been:

    EVEN IF OBAMA IS A MUSLIM, SO FUCKING WHAT?

    In fairness, they do suggest such a thing at the end of their letter, whether they mean it or not is anybody’s guess but at least form has been observed.

    damned-if-you-do. even if they would have written the letter exactly as you would have wanted it, you’d still find some reason to fault it because otherwise it wouldn’t fit into your simplistic ‘lump em all together’ worldview.

    There are many people pushing back against the Aipac/Kill the Muslims/Nuke Iran crowd, the ideological home of most of the jews here, who try to stifle debate with name calling and deflection.

    jesus, that’s just 8 different kinds of crazy, i don’t know where to begin. yeah, we’re all aipac, we want to kill the muslims and nuke iran. and name-calling? from the guy who’s been name-calling this whole thread? classy.

  166. 166
    Soylent Green says:

    And one more thing, Wilfred. I would happily vote for a Muslim to become president of the United States if that person was of good character and favored the progressive policies I want to see implemented. If Obama were a Muslim, my support for him would not waver.

    Put that in your pipe and choke on it, you hateful fucker.

  167. 167
    Wilfred says:

    And one more thing, Wilfred. I would happily vote for a Muslim to become president of the United States if that person was of good character and favored the progressive policies I want to see implemented. If Obama were a Muslim, my support for him would not waver.

    Liar. that’s why Hillary’s last best shot with jews like you is to promise to annihilate Iran. Baby killing cunt.

  168. 168
    4tehlulz says:

    Wilfred has not responded to the charge that he is Jewish. Obviously, then, he’s a Jew.

  169. 169
    chopper says:

    interesting given that wilfred is the very embodiment of that quality he tries to assign to ‘the jews’.

    projection aint dead.

  170. 170

    Muslims Against Sharia Urge Support for Sue Myrick’s “Wake Up America” Initiative

    Wake Up America

    1. Investigate all military chaplains endorsed by Abdurahman Alamoudi, who was imprisoned for funding a terrorist organization.

    2. Investigate all prison chaplains endorsed by Alamoudi.

    3. Investigate the selection process of Arabic translators working for the Pentagon and the FBI.

    4. Examine the non-profit status of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

    5. Make it an act of sedition or solicitation of treason to preach or publish materials that call for the deaths of Americans.

    6. Audit sovereign wealth funds in the United States.

    7. Cancel scholarship student visa program with Saudi Arabia until they reform their text books, which she claims preach hatred and violence against non-Muslims.

    8. Restrict religious visas for imams who come from countries that don’t allow reciprocal visits by non-Muslim clergy.

    9. Cancel contracts to train Saudi police and security in U.S. counterterrorism tactics.

    10. Block the sale of sensitive military munitions to Saudi Arabia.

    Muslims Against Sharia urge every American to send a letter of support to Congresswoman Myrick. Sample letter is provided below.

    ==========================

    The Honorable Sue Myrick
    230 Cannon House Office Building
    Washington, D.C. 20515
    Phone:(202) 225-1976
    Fax:(202) 225-3389

    Dear Congresswoman Myrick,

    As an American who is concerned with issue of terrorism, I applaud your efforts to prevent radical Islam from infiltrating American society. I wholeheartedly support your “Wake Up America” plan, as well as other initiatives of The Anti-Terrorism Caucus. You bring honor to the title of the United States Representative.

    Sincerely,

    Signature
    Name
    Contact info (optional)

    ==========================

    Please print out, sign, and mail or fax this letter to Congresswoman Myrick at the address / fax above. Feel free to modify the letter as you see fit.
    http://muslimsagainstsharia.bl.....t-for.html

  171. 171
    TenguPhule says:

    The South Africa solution.

    Wilfred’s Solution: Drive out the Jews, loot their property and then blame the evil Jews when everything breaks down and the people starve.

    I have to admire Israelis still willing to negotiate with idiots like this.

  172. 172
    TenguPhule says:

    Many Palestinians want a one-state solution, which would mean the end of the Jewish state as a Jewish State, not the Jews. There’s a difference.

    All the difference between gas chambers and ovens.

    There are Israeli Arabs.

    There are no Palistinian Jews.

  173. 173
    TenguPhule says:

    Well, the Palestinians live in walled-in ghettos, you don’t seem to put out by that.

    You don’t give a fuck about Israelis.

    I don’t give a fuck about Palistinians.

    Welcome to the Real world.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] Update: Beyond this being covered in the traditional media, just to embarrass me he said, when the new neighbor was concerned that some of my leftover boards were eroding onto their land another neighbor helped us find the surveyors pins. That didn’t make the news either. If he had shot my sorry ass, that would have been news, even though it wouldn’t necessarily have surprised anyone. […]

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